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Old 10-30-2011, 05:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Getta View Post
could not be more wrong. truth is that there were extreme-far-right Orthodox Christian Greek lunatics (including Archbishop Serafeim) who supported Serb war criminals. also, extreme-far-right Orthodox Christian Greek lunatic volunteers participated in Srebrenica massacre. but, the vast majority of Greek population do feel ashamed, humiliated and guilty for what those extreme-far-right Orthodox Christian lunatic Greeks have done.

Greeks were truly objected and completely opposed to NATO bombardment of Serbia and the intervention of NATO in the Balkans. opinion polls conducted in the middle of April 1999 showed Greeks to be 98% against the bombing. meanwhile the Greek government supported the NATO action...
Your post is contradictory. If mainstream Greek views were in line with the first part of your post, they would hardly be 98% opposed to the bombing. The bombing campaign was constructed on a false image of the conflicts, in which there was a predatory invading genocidal aggressor on one side and innocent helpless victims on the other. That picture was misleading and false and I suspect that that was the perspective embraced by many, if not most, Greeks. From my experience with Greek Americans, admittedly limited, their views are also not generally in line with the first part of your post.

From wikipedia:

Quote:
Several polls were conducted, of which revealed that 99.5% of the Greek population were completely opposed to the bombing, with 85% believing Nato's motives were strategic and not humanitarian.[25] 69% wanted Bill Clinton tried for war crimes, while 52% opposed the admittance of Kosovo Albanian refugees to Greece
Takis Michas is the main figure in the Greeks-as-Srebrenica-perpetrators story. While I understand that perspective a bit, I think it is absurd to consider it without taking into account that probably 10-100 times as many Muslim volunteers (as Greek volunteers) were brought into Bosnia by Izetbegovic to hack off heads and other body parts of Serbs and Croats. I am not one of those people who would elevate Srebrenica above any other atrocity of the war, because I realize full well that it has been thoroughly propagandized and abused as a political instrument, and am therefore suspect of much of what has been said on the matter. And frankly I am more scandalized by a number of other atrocities (perpetrated by Serbs, Croats, Muslims, and Albanians) that happened in those conflicts.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Vida View Post
bad ones. mostly that he was a crazy fck.
Did all of your family have bad ideas about him? Was going against him hard? Like it was hard for you to admit it in all places cause most people supported him? Was there a definite opposition within Serbs that thought his ideas were dangerous?
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Vida View Post
this isnt quite true. for many years, sloba ruled with the support from leftists, mostly nostalgic communist pensioners who did nothing else but watch state propaganda.
Did they support him when he wanted to change the constitution?
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
Did all of your family have bad ideas about him? Was going against him hard? Like it was hard for you to admit it in all places cause most people supported him? Was there a definite opposition within Serbs that thought his ideas were dangerous?
me, my family and all my friends were against him as were all informed people. who supported him were blind pensioners, some peasants (also blind), and social rejects.

numerically, majority was against him (at least after 92, when it became clear what was going on with him), but he inherited the crocked system from the past and manipulated it very effectively that it was very difficult to overthrow him. it was finally done in 2000 after a massive demonstrations.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
But I notice that most of Milosovic supporters are people who can't say neglecting minorities rights was part of the problem. Many of them have right wing religious ideas.
Do those people still like Milosovic and still think things went totally okay, and the problem was from outsiders like a conspiracy, or they are revising their ideas now?
Whom they think are responsible for the killings that happened?
I feel the problem is so complicated and I want to understand every party feelings before having a conclusion. I am currently reading history of Balkan and I want to understand people and not just read history books.
First, Milosevic was not supported by far right wing religious people. Those people had a monarchist orientation. Karadzic was more in line with them. Milosevic was a leftist, an atheist, and considered a traitor by many of those people.

Look at an ethnic map of Serbia and you will see that most if not all of the minorities are exactly where they were before 1991. Slovaks, Hungarians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Muslims, Croats, and Albanians.

This map is from 1940 (just before WWII):



This is a map from 2002:

http://global-atlas.jrc.it/maps/PUBL...nic_Map_A4.jpg

As you can see, the only major change was the expulsion of Germans as punishment for WWII collaboration, which happened at the end of the war and was done by the Communists under Tito, not by Milosevic or any Serb leader before him.

As for who was responsible for most of the killings, I believe it was local police and captains, as well as paramilitaries, and their subordinates. When a conflict like this breaks out between former neighbors, especially those who may have had grudges from the past, the bloodshed can be awful. Most Westerners try to see this through the lens of WWII history, where German soldiers and SS under political command perpetrate crimes. That is completely the wrong way to look at this because the mentality of the people is very different, very individualistic, very tending towards factiousness and rebellion.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post



I think it is absurd to consider it without taking into account that probably 10-100 times as many Muslim volunteers (as Greek volunteers) were brought into Bosnia by Izetbegovic to hack off heads and other body parts of Serbs and Croats.
From what I understand Izetbegovic didn't have support within Bosnians till nationalist ideas from the other side appeared. He was a no body in 70s that didn't find support for his Islamic nationalist ideas.
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
From what I understand Izetbegovic didn't have support within Bosnians till nationalist ideas from the other side appeared. He was a no body in 70s that didn't find support for his Islamic nationalist ideas.
The waves of nationalism were as follows:

1.) Croatian spring in the 1970s.

2.) Albanians in Kosovo in the mid 1980s (when they had autonomy, they wanted a republic).

3.) Serbs in Kosovo and more generally in the late 1980s.

4.) Bosnian Muslims in the early 1990s.

It is true that Izetbegovic was not supported initially by Muslims as much as a much better option. This man was called Fikret Abdic, who was the legally elected head of the Muslims. Izetbegovic did a political maneuver to sideline Abdic and take his place.

Abdic was a tolerant man who dealt well with both Serbs and Croats and ruled a small enclave in Velika Kladusa during the war. He was allied with the Serbs and Croats and an enemy of the Izetbegovic Muslims during the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fikret_Abdić
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post


As for who was responsible for most of the killings, I believe it was local police and captains, as well as paramilitaries, and their subordinates. When a conflict like this breaks out between former neighbors, especially those who may have had grudges from the past, the bloodshed can be awful. Most Westerners try to see this through the lens of WWII history, where German soldiers and SS under political command perpetrate crimes. That is completely the wrong way to look at this because the mentality of the people is very different, very individualistic, very tending towards factiousness and rebellion.
What is the origin of the grudge between neighbors?
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Cleopatra, you have to be very specific about Milosevic. Are you referring to "regrets" in terms of govt. influence in Serbia?
In which Vida, Aloimeh, and everyone else have already answered. Or are you referring to Milosevic in terms of war?
(against the neighboring nations).

I never understood why Montenegro separated from Serbia after a long stay. I don't know if this was U.S. influence pressuring them
to become a nation to make Serbia smaller, or if they really wanted to become sovereign. They did recognize Kosovo, so for this reason,
I'm going to assume could have been outside political pressure, unless of course Montenegrins themselves thought their land would take
a hit if they remain with Serbia because of economic problems of the time.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
The waves of nationalism were as follows:

1.) Croatian spring in the 1970s.

[/url]
I read that Croatian spring was due to unfairness towards Croats and that they were supported by left progressives against the majority of communists, then Tito allowed the 74 constitution which was more progressive.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiaben View Post
Cleopatra, you have to be very specific about Milosevic. Are you referring to "regrets" in terms of govt. influence in Serbia?
In which Vida, Aloimeh, and everyone else have already answered. Or are you referring to Milosevic in terms of war?
(against the neighboring nations).

I never understood why Montenegro separated from Serbia after a long stay. I don't know if this was U.S. influence pressuring them
to become a nation to make Serbia smaller, or if they really wanted to become sovereign. They did recognize Kosovo, so for this reason,
I'm going to assume could have been outside political pressure, unless of course Montenegrins themselves thought their land would take
a hit if they remain with Serbia because of economic problems of the time.
Historically most Montenegrins considered themselves Serbs and only a small minority considered themselves a separate ethnic group. Milo Djukanovic, who drove the independence of Montenegro, was far more nationalistic than Milosevic in the 1990s and called for tougher measures and more warfare.

So the Montenegrin flip-flop is purely a result of politics. They thought they could get by better with tourism and Western cash than in a union with Serbia. Unfortunately, they continue with this policy even while continuing to take advantage of benefits offered (in the past and still now) by Serbia.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiaben View Post
Cleopatra, you have to be very specific about Milosevic. Are you referring to "regrets" in terms of govt. influence in Serbia?
In which Vida, Aloimeh, and everyone else have already answered. Or are you referring to Milosevic in terms of war?
(against the neighboring nations).

I never understood why Montenegro separated from Serbia after a long stay. I don't know if this was U.S. influence pressuring them
to become a nation to make Serbia smaller, or if they really wanted to become sovereign. They did recognize Kosovo, so for this reason,
I'm going to assume could have been outside political pressure, unless of course Montenegrins themselves thought their land would take
a hit if they remain with Serbia because of economic problems of the time.
montenegro separated from 'serbia and montenegro' because that way their govermant could have continued their criminal ventures without being overly bothered.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
What is the origin of the grudge between neighbors?
Primarily the events of WWII. There are many documentaries I could upload for you if you are interested in any particular theater of war.

To give you an example, in 1992 local Serbs in Visegrad murdered hundreds of Bosnian Muslim civilians.
In this same town in 1942 about 6000 Serb civilians were murdered by Muslim and Croat fascists on the banks of the Drina River.

Another example, in 1992 on Mt. Majevica near Tuzla local Serbs killed about 60 Muslim civilians.
During WWII more than 500 Serbs were killed by Muslims at the same location.

That's just two examples, probably the ones that best illustrate the aspect of local revenge. There are many, many others.
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Last edited by Aloimeh : 10-30-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiaben View Post
Cleopatra, you have to be very specific about Milosevic. Are you referring to "regrets" in terms of govt. influence in Serbia?
In which Vida, Aloimeh, and everyone else have already answered. Or are you referring to Milosevic in terms of war?
(against the neighboring nations).
I mean in general. What do they think of that time, and do they believe the war was going to happen any way. Or that Milosovic and others had influence in creating hate and violence. Like, was there a possibility of preventing hate and violence with other leaders and ideas? Was there a definite political and social opposition who was telling people to adopt more tolerant ideas, do they regret not joining it now?
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:13 PM   #30
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I read that Croatian spring was due to unfairness towards Croats and that they were supported by left progressives against the majority of communists, then Tito allowed the 74 constitution which was more progressive.
I don't know what Croats were yapping about, but they always thought Yugoslavia was "keeping them down." They were the primary drivers of Yugoslav disintegration before WWII and after WWII.

A proper reflection of history indicates quite the opposite, i.e. that Yugoslavia helped the Croats gain territory and political sovereignty.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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