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Old 03-10-2011, 01:38 PM   #316
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

- Evita - I raised this issue about early deadlines in the off season when I said that it was unfair the code of conduct had more stipulations for managers than players but at the same time many managers were setting deadlines anytime they liked - which was causing issues - and no one else contributed to the discussion except to shoot down all my concerns/ideas (what's new...)

I personally think a manager should be able to set a deadline at a reasonable time relative to the start of play - for many like myself who aren't students and work for a living, meetings and other obligations can come up at short notice and obviously take precedence over an internet game. However, there is always so much complaining that the better solution might be CoolyBri's proposal of a firm deadline and a diffs deadline

On another note, I'd also like to see a new rule implemented in the off-season that anyone complaining about rules and management should "walk the walk" and be a regular manager (-Evita- this isn't at all directed at you - you manage a lot and your contributions to TT are much appreciated). This discussion is indicative of a larger trend over the last year where players feel free to criticize managers for anything, most of time pretty petty stuff. Meanwhile whenever I manage a tournament, many of the same people I see complaining regularly in other threads - who shall remain nameless here - can't even be bothered to send their picks in the correct format
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:12 PM   #317
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolyBri View Post
I can fully understand both sides here.
I think it might be worth to think about two deadlines a day. The first one is the start of play officially stated at the ATP OOP, every pick sent by that time would be counted.
The second one is the "differences deadline": Only players who send by that "different deadline" get their differences.

With these two deadlines everyone's timely picks would be counted and the managers would not need to be around for the start of play - but players who don't send early enough (and their opponents) just don't get their diffs. Usually both deadlines of course should be the same, they only would be different in the case of a manager not being able to be around for the start of play.
I don't think this is a good idea
here's an exapmle why:
TT singles
A vs. B
TT doubles
C/D vs. A/E
Let's say everyone sent until the manager's deadline except "B" and the manager posted diffs e.g
TT singles
A vs. B - missing picks from B
TT doubles
C/D vs. A/E - Federer x2, Murray x2 vs. Nadal x2, Djokovic x2

And that's for the manager's deadline, but now B could send picks till the official ATP OOP and now he already nows that "A" chose Nadal and Djokovic, which isn't fair for player "A"
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:18 PM   #318
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
For me, the problem is that it's against the rules. I've read the rules and I've always been 100% convinced that the deadline is when the play starts so I often don't check the manager's deadline. I've had no reason to, they are supposed to be the same with no exceptions
You don't seem to have a problem breaking the rules when it suits you to do so. You said you've posted differences early on several occassions - you absolutely should not do that. A player has the right to change his/her picks up to the deadline. If you're posting everyone's diffs before the deadline any player could change their picks, and you would have to accept them because there is no rule to say that a player can't change their picks if the manager decided to post the differences early.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
First of all, not all managers CLEARLY FLAG UP the deadline. For example, just now in IW there was no indication that the deadline was not the same as the official one.
I think IW was a genuine mistake on Goldenoldie's part. Tuesday's play started at 10 am and I think he assumed Wednesday would also start at 10am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Shortened, my point is that the manager's deadline should be the one that matters, not the tournament's start of play on the ATP site, and it should be the responsibility of the players to check this every day and adhere to it. If they can't that's too bad for them but that shouldn't be allowed to inconvenience everyone else in the tournament.
I agree.
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:45 PM   #319
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by l_mac View Post
You don't seem to have a problem breaking the rules when it suits you to do so. You said you've posted differences early on several occassions - you absolutely should not do that. A player has the right to change his/her picks up to the deadline. If you're posting everyone's diffs before the deadline any player could change their picks, and you would have to accept them because there is no rule to say that a player can't change their picks if the manager decided to post the differences early.
I confess I hadn't thought of it quite that way - probably because nobody tried to change their picks in that short time period But you're right, I won't do that.

Quote:
I think IW was a genuine mistake on Goldenoldie's part. Tuesday's play started at 10 am and I think he assumed Wednesday would also start at 10am.
I know but it doesn't matter. Several managers have been doing this so the rule needs to be clarified.
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:49 PM   #320
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
I know but it doesn't matter. Several managers have been doing this so the rule needs to be clarified.
I agree.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:59 PM   #321
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita-
I hope Murilo can come here and clear it up.
I don't think I was the one who wrote this rule, but it doesn't matter. The way the rule is written was supposed to emphasize the rule change that didn't allow picks which were sent after the manager's deadline, even if a point hadn't been played. Under normal circunstances, the deadline should obviously be the time when the first match is scheduled to start, hence the second part of the rule, but the point is that it wasn't created to restrict managers from using earlier deadlines when necessary. It wasn't its purpose and probably most of us didn't realize the rule could be misleading when we wrote it. I think that's why the early deadlines were permitted, even though the literal interpretation of the rule doesn't seem to allow them.

As scoobs said, we were already working on the clarification of the rule and we'll surely finish it up soon. I must apologize because I actually thought this issue had already been solved, as the discussion was very advanced in January. We were already writing the amendment and for some reason I was under the impression that the rule thread had already been edited.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:16 PM   #322
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Wow. So it was all a big misunderstanding that went on for two years? Unbelievable. I would have wished to know this before I started managing, seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean by "working on the clarification"... Is this being decided among the board members? Since January?? Usually there's a separate thread for such discussions so that everyone who has an opinion can voice it. Maybe it would be appropriate here? Otherwise all these discussions get lost in the middle of this thread.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:48 PM   #323
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

I've always known all the rules as they are now, I just didn't realize there was this part that could be understood differently from what the rule actually meant.

And by that I meant the clarification of that particular rule you quoted. It was never meant to restrict managers from using early deadlines, so we were changing its wording so all the confusion it's been causing is cleared, just adding the conditions under which the early deadlines could be used. Whether the early deadlines should stay or not is another problem, and it surely can be discussed here.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:18 PM   #324
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by keqtqiadv View Post
I've always known all the rules as they are now, I just didn't realize there was this part that could be understood differently from what the rule actually meant.
I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about myself, obviously I misunderstood the rule. I feel so stupid now. And I still wonder how it is possible that no one realized this for two years... Unbelievable. But when you realized it in January why didn't you alter the FAQ? Just to make it clear that the official deadline isn't mandatory? It seems to me that this needs fixing ASAP and you can add the exceptions and all the detailed conditions later. If the FAQ had been modified then we wouldn't be having this discussion today and everyone would be much happier.

I'm sorry if I seem too accusing or something, I just really feel cheated right now.
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:14 AM   #325
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

I haven't fully read all the posts in this discussion as I have a slow internet connection atm but I think I get the gist of what's going on. The following is the draft clarification of the rule that we came up with in January when we realised that there could be some misinterpretation of the existing rule. This is what the rule has been since the start of 2009 (it was changed during the off-season that year following the discussions at the end of the previous year)

The deadline will be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins where possible. However, managers may occasionally set an earlier deadline at which no more picks will be allowed if their personal circumstances dictate this and plenty of warning is given.

Managers don't have carte blanche to set a random deadline not in line with the OOP but have the freedom to do so if they need to.
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:26 AM   #326
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavnich77 View Post
The deadline will usually be taken from the official order of play and set at a time when the first match begins where possible. However, managers may occasionally set an earlier deadline at which no more picks will be allowed if their personal circumstances dictate this and plenty of warning is given.
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:28 AM   #327
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?
and in thread title i would add
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:50 PM   #328
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Question for the board concerning commitments - duducardoso committed to Miami and then withdrew and signed up to a challenger. I informed him therefore that he would be an LE in that tournament - so today he withdrew from there and committed again to Miami.

The scenario below doesn't seem to apply 100% to this. What should we do? I'm positive he's an LE now no matter where he plays, but is he even allowed to recommit back to Miami?

Quote:
What happens if a player commits to two different tournaments in the same week?

If the player commited first in a tournament and then commited in another one, the first one prevails. The player must withdraw from the tournament they've previously entered before being accepted in the entry list of the other tournament (as a late entry). If the double commitment is not noticed by the managers, points gained by a player who commits to tournaments in the same week will be disconsidered. If the infraction is noticed before the tournaments start, only the first commitment is valid and no punishment is applied.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:59 PM   #329
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Evita- View Post
If I may make a couple of suggestions?

1) I would add the word "usually" to the first sentence because otherwise it still seems too categorical.

2) I think we should define "plenty of warning" more concretely. My suggestion is that there has to be at least 10 hour window from the moment the manager posts the OOP and the early deadline. If it's less than 10 hours then we have to go by the official deadline. And also the manager has to note in big bold letters in the OOP that the deadline is different from the official one.

How does that sound?
Whatever we decide can we take a step back and make sure that a trend doesn't continue/start where the growth of rules and regulations for managers grows much faster than those for players? As evidence I'll submit the TT Code of Conduct which has more clauses relating to managers than players when it was originally proposed to curb behaviour of players.

No matter what the rules are people are going to complain and critique managers on these boards. There just always seems to be a group of people who can do so much better than existing managers, and a lot of the time the criticisms come from people who are too lazy to manage, read what the managers post, format their picks correctly, or all three. Managing a tournament like Indian Wells is A LOT of work and I feel that every time there an issue lately the complaints of players take precedence over the flexibility and understanding that should be part of a game where people with studies, jobs, and families are investing a lot of time managing this game so it can continue.

I support -Evita- in the need to clarify this rule but just want to make sure what ends up coming out of this discussion doesn't chain managers to their computers for a week
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:11 PM   #330
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Default Re: Tennis Tipping Managers Thread 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Whatever we decide can we take a step back and make sure that a trend doesn't continue/start where the growth of rules and regulations for managers grows much faster than those for players? As evidence I'll submit the TT Code of Conduct which has more clauses relating to managers than players when it was originally proposed to curb behaviour of players.

No matter what the rules are people are going to complain and critique managers on these boards. There just always seems to be a group of people who can do so much better than existing managers, and a lot of the time the criticisms come from people who are too lazy to manage, read what the managers post, format their picks correctly, or all three. Managing a tournament like Indian Wells is A LOT of work and I feel that every time there an issue lately the complaints of players take precedence over the flexibility and understanding that should be part of a game where people with studies, jobs, and families are investing a lot of time managing this game so it can continue.

I support -Evita- in the need to clarify this rule but just want to make sure what ends up coming out of this discussion doesn't chain managers to their computers for a week
I understand your concerns with that but do you not think that the fact that the code of conduct has more to say about managers responsibilities simply reflects the fact that the manager *has* more responsibilities and more to do to enable to the game to run smoothly. It shouldn't necessarily be seen as the manager having "more" burdens upon them in terms of having to adhere to the code.
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