Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof. Wada could test using hair) - Page 3 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: Does Tennis need more/stricter testing?

yes 282 84.18%
no 53 15.82%
Voters: 335. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2010, 12:52 AM   #31
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

People trying to deny it that tennis doesn't have a drugs issue. Having to report their whereabouts is nothing. Look at the testing system and any doctor who has a little bit of knowledge about drugs would be able to get around it. Why do you think cycling have biological passports now? To see how good tennis' drug testing system is just look at the recent example of Odesnik. If it wasn't for some airport inspector Odesnik would have been playing week in week out juiced on HGH.
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Old 10-16-2010, 11:57 AM   #32
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Agree with JMF, good post as often.

The most appalling decision by the ITF is, I think, rejecting the AFLD's proposal to CERA testing at RG, on the ground that CERA was not used in tennis.


Also glad to see Courier's comment. I didn't know he said that. Wasn't a fan of but I've also wondered if his quick decline and decision to stop his career so suddenly was not linked to ...


I'm tranlating here the comments made by Chris Rochus after the AO 2002, because on the other thread, people seem to be more concerned with the fixing matter:

Quote:
Cheating exists. I think there is dope in tennis. Not just in track & field and cycling. I think one tennis player out of 10 is a doper. I'm playing tennis. I know what we could do with training. Players have limits and I see players who have no limits. Some players may take EPO to play 3 or 4 hour matches back to back and 7 hour training sessions. Players of my standard think the same but we have no proof. The ATP should have better testing, blood testing.
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Old 10-16-2010, 01:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Very interesting thread indeed and some excellent contributions here by posters

Michael Mewshaw is an excellent journalist and author, I have his book Ladies of the Court which I bought some years back.

Its quite clear Tennis has had a problem for some time.

But as usual its always down to money. The season is too long and the ATP have done nothing to address that . For instance, they have all of these big tournaments in Asia so soon after the US Open (for monetary reasons of course). And as usual the season finishes in December with the Davis cup final and starts on December 31st.

Thats quite shameful in my opinion but the ATP doesn't seem to be ashamed at all. The ATP should end the season at the end of October by the very latest which includes getting the Davis Cup final done. More tournaments need to be taken off the calender.

This wouldn't eleiminate the drugs problem but top players who want to stay clean will have more time to recover and will have a proper break at the end of the season before resuming training for the next season.
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by laurie-1 View Post
Very interesting thread indeed and some excellent contributions here by posters

Michael Mewshaw is an excellent journalist and author, I have his book Ladies of the Court which I bought some years back.

Its quite clear Tennis has had a problem for some time.

But as usual its always down to money. The season is too long and the ATP have done nothing to address that . For instance, they have all of these big tournaments in Asia so soon after the US Open (for monetary reasons of course). And as usual the season finishes in December with the Davis cup final and starts on December 31st.

Thats quite shameful in my opinion but the ATP doesn't seem to be ashamed at all. The ATP should end the season at the end of October by the very latest which includes getting the Davis Cup final done. More tournaments need to be taken off the calender.

This wouldn't eleiminate the drugs problem but top players who want to stay clean will have more time to recover and will have a proper break at the end of the season before resuming training for the next season.
Removing tournaments from the calender is easier said then done. Maybe they need to do what the PGA tour did with their 'fall series'. None of the top ranked players are out there but it does allow for lower ranked players to earn $$$ and pick up ranking points.
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:25 PM   #35
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
As above: this is easy to beat, just give false whereabouts when you're doping. The number of out of competition tests is so miniscule it's impossible to get sanctioned.
That's not true. Many players have stated that they have done many tests out of competition and you cannot lie about your whereabouts because an agent could get wherever you say you are within hours. I can't remember now where I read something about this, i think it was Murray who said it, I wish I could find that article. It was very interesting.
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Old 10-16-2010, 02:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

There is talk of reducing the season by 2 - 3 weeks from 2012, they are trying to thrash out the 2012 calendar now - but we've heard all this before, and they don't want to lose tournaments so it's hard to see how it could happen.
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Old 10-16-2010, 03:14 PM   #37
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
There is talk of reducing the season by 2 - 3 weeks from 2012, they are trying to thrash out the 2012 calendar now - but we've heard all this before, and they don't want to lose tournaments so it's hard to see how it could happen.
Why can't they just end the season earlier for the top ranked guys but still keep events on the calendar for lower ranked guys who still want to play and earn some $$ and ranking points? Don't know how they can keep all the tournaments they have plus DC and end the season 2-3 weeks earlier. But there are probably guys who don't go deep week in and week out or who are coming of injury who would like to be able to still play late in the year.
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Old 10-16-2010, 03:17 PM   #38
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Forgive me for my poor knowledge on the subject, but is EPO where they replace the individuals blood with more oxygenated blood?
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Old 10-16-2010, 03:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nole fan View Post
That's not true. Many players have stated that they have done many tests out of competition and you cannot lie about your whereabouts because an agent could get wherever you say you are within hours. I can't remember now where I read something about this, i think it was Murray who said it, I wish I could find that article. It was very interesting.
The article you posted earlier mentioned that last year Federer only got tested 17 times and of those only one was out of competition. Last year there were a total of 68 out of competitions urine tests from male tennis players and no out of competitions blood tests. On the ITF website (link)there's a list of who got tested out of competitions and most top players only got tested out of competition once or twice. So if the agents are only checking up on your whereabouts once maybe twice a year and there's only a penalty if you fail to fill in your whereabouts correctly three times in eighteen months, a player would have to be very careless to fail a drug test that way.

Now I'm not saying that all the players are doping or anything like that just that imo with the current anti-doping policy the ITF/ATP has someone who is doping and is carefull about it can probably get away with it because the testing isn't that strict.
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Old 10-16-2010, 03:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nole fan View Post
That's not true. Many players have stated that they have done many tests out of competition ...
The list of out of competition tests for 2009 was leaked, and it was a joke. Barely 1 per week average out of competition tests for the entire top100.

Quote:
....and you cannot lie about your whereabouts because an agent could get wherever you say you are within hours.
Sure you can. Testers turn up, guy isn't there, he gets one strike. The testers don't go phoning around, chasing people. Three strikes in 18 months, and you get a suspension.

This allows players to dope at certain offseason training times during the season: February, July, December. The chance of getting three strikes is minimal, cos there are barely any OOC tests at those times. According to the ITF, these were the men tested during those months last year:

Harrison
Tsonga
Mathieu x2 (one missed test)
Simon x2 (both tests missed)
Nestor x2 (one missed test)
Benneteau
Ancic
Seppi
Soderling
Haas
Kohlschreiber (missed test)
Koellerer (missed test)



That's it. The prime doping months of the year, nobody in the top5 was tested, only two top10 guys were tested, only six top100. Of those six, Haas and Mathieu were long term injured so it was pointless going to test them.

Also, none of the above included blood tests, nor EPO tests.


Basically: the sophistication and short life in the body of current drugs means nobody will ever be caught by the testing itself. Three strikes is the only weapon tennis authorities have, and the system as it is will never give anybody that three. At best it can hope to disrupt players and give them two strikes, they then take a year off the dope to let strike1 expire, and then go back on.


The system as it is looks like it was designed to catch nobody .... and even if they do catch people, it gets covered up, eg Agassi and the 42 who got caught on nandrolene in 2004 (only Rusedski was named, and the "contaminated supplements" ruse has been utterly debunked through testing).

Last edited by philosophicalarf : 10-16-2010 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:13 AM   #41
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
The list of out of competition tests for 2009 was leaked, and it was a joke. Barely 1 per week average out of competition tests for the entire top100.



Sure you can. Testers turn up, guy isn't there, he gets one strike. The testers don't go phoning around, chasing people. Three strikes in 18 months, and you get a suspension.

This allows players to dope at certain offseason training times during the season: February, July, December. The chance of getting three strikes is minimal, cos there are barely any OOC tests at those times. According to the ITF, these were the men tested during those months last year:

Harrison
Tsonga
Mathieu x2 (one missed test)
Simon x2 (both tests missed)
Nestor x2 (one missed test)
Benneteau
Ancic
Seppi
Soderling
Haas
Kohlschreiber (missed test)
Koellerer (missed test)



That's it. The prime doping months of the year, nobody in the top5 was tested, only two top10 guys were tested, only six top100. Of those six, Haas and Mathieu were long term injured so it was pointless going to test them.

Also, none of the above included blood tests, nor EPO tests.


Basically: the sophistication and short life in the body of current drugs means nobody will ever be caught by the testing itself. Three strikes is the only weapon tennis authorities have, and the system as it is will never give anybody that three. At best it can hope to disrupt players and give them two strikes, they then take a year off the dope to let strike1 expire, and then go back on.


The system as it is looks like it was designed to catch nobody .... and even if they do catch people, it gets covered up, eg Agassi and the 42 who got caught on nandrolene in 2004 (only Rusedski was named, and the "contaminated supplements" ruse has been utterly debunked through testing).
Also, there's obviously nothing resembling target testing. If an OOC-test is missed, the ITF might wait a year before making another attempt at OOC-testing the player in question.
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:58 AM   #42
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by laurie-1 View Post
[...]
I agree about the Asian season, not very well placed in the calendar, just after the US season and before European indoor events. I've heard Clément saying that he came to the challenger in Mons because he didn't feel like traveling all the way to Asia.

However I don't agree about making the season shorter because in the 80's it was as long, if not longer, while doping was still rather "archaïc". Players played exo events deep into the month of December and were back on track in January for the Masters or the Australian. A guy like Lendl played and won far more tournaments than Federer or Nadal, and you know it. Present-day player only have a one-month off-season but they give themselves more resting period within the season. After all Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich were known heavy dopers and they were some of the first cyclists to end their season in July.


Quote:
Forgive me for my poor knowledge on the subject, but is EPO where they replace the individuals blood with more oxygenated blood?
In a way, yes.
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
The list of out of competition tests for 2009 was leaked, and it was a joke. Barely 1 per week average out of competition tests for the entire top100.



Sure you can. Testers turn up, guy isn't there, he gets one strike. The testers don't go phoning around, chasing people. Three strikes in 18 months, and you get a suspension.

This allows players to dope at certain offseason training times during the season: February, July, December. The chance of getting three strikes is minimal, cos there are barely any OOC tests at those times. According to the ITF, these were the men tested during those months last year:

Harrison
Tsonga
Mathieu x2 (one missed test)
Simon x2 (both tests missed)
Nestor x2 (one missed test)
Benneteau
Ancic
Seppi
Soderling
Haas
Kohlschreiber (missed test)
Koellerer (missed test)



That's it. The prime doping months of the year, nobody in the top5 was tested, only two top10 guys were tested, only six top100. Of those six, Haas and Mathieu were long term injured so it was pointless going to test them.

Also, none of the above included blood tests, nor EPO tests.


Basically: the sophistication and short life in the body of current drugs means nobody will ever be caught by the testing itself. Three strikes is the only weapon tennis authorities have, and the system as it is will never give anybody that three. At best it can hope to disrupt players and give them two strikes, they then take a year off the dope to let strike1 expire, and then go back on.


The system as it is looks like it was designed to catch nobody .... and even if they do catch people, it gets covered up, eg Agassi and the 42 who got caught on nandrolene in 2004 (only Rusedski was named, and the "contaminated supplements" ruse has been utterly debunked through testing).
I didn't know that, wow. Thanks.
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Old 10-17-2010, 09:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

Until there is legitimate testing on all forms of PEDs and the ones players in all sports these day generally use, then players will continue to use PEDs. As of right now a lot of PEDs are simply undetectable and are also easily flushed from the system. Obviously the inconsistent and lackadaisical schedules of testing will only enhance the chances of players taking advantage and doping and getting away with it. Anyone who says doping isn't a major issue in sports in general is really blind, and it's likely never going to go away until someone has the balls to really address and investigate the situation, which I don't see happening.
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:26 AM   #45
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Default Re: A short history of drugs in tennis

I took the trouble to google translate this article that features an excerpt from Norman's book "Tennis off the record". It's understandable if you're not :retard:

http://translate.google.se/translate...all_460641.svd
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