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49K views 217 replies 18 participants last post by  monkey247 
#1 ·
Marat's back in the Duma today. :) Watch it live on Vesti.ru (better transmission quality) or UStream.

Yes, I have a lot of time on my hands, like this guy. :p It's half term, it's Bank Holiday, and therefore 11C outside :rolleyes: ...

 
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#9 · (Edited)
Re: All the videos and audios of MaRaT!

Thanks, but i still don't get it! Why isn't such deliberate obstruction regarded as tiresome (not to mention childish)? What's the merit in it, or is just the cheap thrill of winding up ER for kicks?

I mean, for those who are stalling procedures, it must have a certain comedy value, but for those who want genuine co-operation across party lines, isn't it a tedious pain in the arse? Or is simply expected/tolerated as part of the legislative process?

I wish I had a Babelfish inside my head!!
 
#10 ·
Re: All the videos and audios of MaRaT!

Thanks, but i still don't get it! Why isn't such deliberate obstruction regarded as tiresome (not to mention childish)? What's the merit in it, or is just the cheap thrill of winding up ER for kicks?
the thing is ER can pass any law they want even if a law is anti-constitutional. In case of today's law ER wants to make it effective before June, 12 when the big protest demonstration is planned. Deliberate obstruction is the only way to prevent it or at least try to prevent it.
ps I guess we should move it to another thread ))
 
#12 ·
The OTHER thing MArat was doing on Friday...from Twitter on the 13th

Maria Antonova ‏@mashant
Marat Safin is in the Duma looking glum and not singing the national anthem.

oops - trouble in Paradise? given what the Duma were doing on Friday 13th regarding passing legislation to even further suppress freedom of speech in Russia, he might well look glum - unfortunately for him, it may be too late to change his mind..... :-( - so he better start singing the "right tune"...and it all seemed like such a good idea at the time...
 
#14 ·
Does anyone know if Marat is actually an official member of United Russia?

Article from the Telegraph.

Guardian live news feed: "Arrests coming thick and fast now. There have been like 3 dozen since the sentence was announced, bringing the total to =80 by my count".

Wikipedia entry: "Chess champion Garry Kasparov and opposition leader Sergei Udaltsov, who were protesting in support of the band, were detained by police."

Pussy Riot punk trio found guilty of hooliganism by Russian court

12:38PM BST 17 Aug 2012

A Russian judge on Friday sentenced three women from the punk band Pussy Riot to two years in prison after finding them guilty of hooliganism for staging an anti-Kremlin protest on the altar of Moscow's main cathedral.



Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, 22, a philosophy graduate, Maria Alekhina, 24, a charity worker and environmental activist and Yekaterina Samutsevich, 30, a computer programming graduate, exchanged a few quick smiles as they heard the verdict from inside the glass enclosure reserved for defendants.

They were arrested after performing a chaotic can-can and shouting a few words of a “punk prayer” which included the words, “Mother of God, drive out Putin” during their protest.

Judge Marina Syrova said the three band members had "carefully planned" their February 21 action inside the Christ the Saviour Cathedral. "Tolokonnikova, Alyokhina and Samutsevich committed hooliganism - in other words, a grave violation of public order," she said.

"The court finds them quilty. The court reached this decision based on testimony of the defendants themselves and other evidence."

The judge said the three displayed a "clear disrespect toward society" by bursting into Russia's most important church just weeks before March 4 elections which saw Putin storm his way to an historic third term.

The judge opened the hearing with dozens of passionate band and Orthodox Church followers being held apart by riot police and Western diplomats jostling with reporters for a spot inside the courtoom.

Hundreds of Pussy Riot supporters chanted "Russia without Putin!" amid a heavy police presence. Police rounded up a few dozen protesters, including former world chess champion Garry Kasparov, who is a leading opposition activist, and leftist opposition group leader Sergei Udaltsov.

"Let Pussy Riot and all their supporters burn in hell," one church supporter screamed amid the tumult.

The trio have already apologised for offence caused to Orthodox believers and say their protest was against church leader Patriarch Kirill supporting Mr Putin’s campaign. Critics believe the Kremlin ordered the prosecution.

In a handwritten letter smuggled out of prison on the eve of the verdict, Miss Tolokonnikova said Vladimir Putin could not defeat a growing opposition movement. She wrote that the Pussy Riot trial had united disparate forces of dissent against those who “threaten destruction of the liberating, emancipating forces of Russia.”

There is no personal malice,” she wrote in scrawled blue pen. “But there is a political one. Our term in prison is a clear and distinct sign that freedom is being taken away from the whole country. And that threatens destruction of the liberating, emancipating forces of Russia. That’s what makes me angry.”
 
#16 ·
And hopefully, he never will (join, that is....)at least for the moment we can still cling to the belief that he can distance himself from the repression...although it is really impossible to imagine that he is unaware of the impact this latest debacle has on the reputation of Russia in the West (not that Putin particularly cares about THAT - disapproval merely adds fuel to his fire of "US against Them" after all) ...but Marat has always seemed to be patriotic in a rather ....emotional way - as opposed to a pragmatic "part of the agenda" way, I mean - characteristic of the ex-pat which, for the vast majority of his life, is after all, what he was) but clearly misguided..and sucked in to politics on a local level possibly without much real examination of the 'bigger' picture - representing NN in the Duma probably sounded like a good idea when it was pitched to him....but now he is tarred with the same brush as the rest of ER, member or not .....interestingly, the BBC World Service made mention, towards the end of their broadcast of the verdict - that the Orthodox Church (rather late , as the reporter noted) has issued a statement asking for "mercy".....which makes you wonder, surely the women will pose a greater threat to Putin, even locked away in a siberian labor camp, as a focus for the disparate opposition - so is that the fist stage in a process which may see Putin playing the benevolent "father of the nation" to release them 6 months down the track......or has the damage already been done??
 
#17 ·
And hopefully, he never will (join, that is....)at least for the moment we can still cling to the belief that he can distance himself from the repression...
it's too late
Orthodox Church (rather late , as the reporter noted) has issued a statement asking for "mercy".....which makes you wonder, surely the women will pose a greater threat to Putin, even locked away in a siberian labor camp, as a focus for the disparate opposition - so is that the fist stage in a process which may see Putin playing the benevolent "father of the nation" to release them 6 months down the track......or has the damage already been done??
pretty cynical to ask for mercy after the verdict. Church did it to safe the face.
Best case scenario I guess is the girls released in spring on probation. One thing for sure- they will be released before winter Olympics 2014.
 
#18 ·
I know....I agree...the "church' has it's own agenda in this....as much as Putin...the reportage we have had in the media in Australia (the 'intelligent media' - if there IS such a thing...) has not failed to note how this whole issue has illustrated the divides in secular Russian society - between the 'devout' outraged for religious reasons - and the politically aware intelligentsia - who don't seem to exist outside the centres of Moscow and Saint Petersburg...so the whole thing plays to Putin's power base - the uneducated masses...the whole THING is ironic!
 
#24 ·
Hehehe...the crowd chanting "Facists' as they dragged her away reminded me of when the cops cleared out City Square of the "Occupy" protesters a couple of months ago - difference being, of course, our ferals were not going to be prosecuted and chucked in jail for expressing an opinion somewhat at odds with the mainstream - but that's silly old "democracy' for you - tolerates all kind of silly protests.....

we actually saw this on the news here - in fact, it may even have made it onto the NTV news programme broadcast by SBS - who IS that woman with the hair that looks like a bike helmet, by the way.... :)
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm astonished to see just how easily people will start screaming crime against democracy/supression of the freedom of speach, etc. at just about anything happening in Russia!

And, no offense, it's most frequenly not even the people who are supposed to know about it better, i.e.the Russians, but all sort of far-away countries clearly politically antagonical to Russia.

I'm not necessarly a huge fan of Mr. Putin and I don't live in Russia (I live in Romania and trust me, the last thing we love these days in Romania is the mere thought of our "friendly neighbour from the East").

But I firmly belive that much of the non-sense that is pourred in the Western press, all this negative opinions to which (no offense, plese) people leaving far, far away from Russia seem o belive they are entitled to, is the result of nohing else but of a tenacious campaign targeted againts a political competitor.

I'm really curious how would you people govern a country as big as Russia, given all the problems within (economical, ethnical, etc.) other than with an iron fist?!

And let me tell you, as a practician of law, that [/B]what [/B]those silly chicks did WAS hoolliganismaccording to any common sense criminal law textbook.

Of course everybody now screams dictatorship, but fact is: it was hoolliganism., get over it!

Much more dangerous as it comes from people with a certain public exposure. And in a country with such big extremist issues!

So let them go to jail (the penalty seemed fairly balanced to me), that's what an ordinary Russian ciizen would do for a similar crime (again, it's a crime, regulated by a criminal law, no something invented to crush young revolutionary spirit), that's what they should do!

After all if all you are capable to imagine as a political protest is the ridiculosness they came up with, the rest of the world should probably pity other stuff then their young, silly, attention seeking asses.

As for Marat, why do people constantly take him for a naive who got cought in the spider web of a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?!

Would it be all that impossible to accept that maybe not only is he fully aware of what politics is about, but also that he agrees with his party's actions?!

That maybe he sees said actions as correct?!

Does that make him stupid? Or evil?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Apologies for the posting of the entire quote, Monkey, but I would like to address each of these accusatory charges individually.
Firstly, of course you are entitled to your opinion, little masha, and clearly you are applying a very different perspective to this, given the country you live in and it's recent history, to myself, having lived all my life in western democratic countries. I will qualify straight away - "democracy" is by no means a "perfect" political system, and neither is western law unimpeachable in some instances - but I think there are several major issues at stake here which speak precisely to the separation between the STATE, the CHURCH and the LAW - all of which should operate entirely independently and should, it seems to me, act as moderating forces upon each other - and THAT is the crux of the matter to my mind.

IN this case, religious outrage has walked hand in hand with political repression - 'hooliganism'on one side is legitimate political protest about a specific issue of the Patriarch as a representative of the CHURCH publicly supporting Putin's re-election and therefore clearly NOT beingindependent - on the other - all rather ironic,I would say, given the soviet repression of the Church wouldn't you think, and Putin's previous career in the KGB.... as for your supposition that it's only ignorant foreigners who are
"screaming crime against democracy/supression of the freedom of speach, etc. at just about anything happening in Russia!"
Tell that to the Russians arrested outside the court, and the thousands of opposition protesters who risk arrest and fines, as the Duma just passed the laws relating to 'unauthorised' protests - which can amount to many more times the average wage...or are THEY just imagining it all?

...oh no, wait - they are ALL AGENTS OF THE WEST, right - paid off by the americans to go to jail for making a political protest - whether or not you agree with their particular choice of action, THAT is not the argument here, is it? and frankly, to claim that it's all anti-Russian rhetoric created by the western press as an attack against Russia is both spurious and ridiculous - and THAT is precisely what I mean by "Us against THEM" - Putin has ALWAYS played that card - Russia is "different" and the west just don't "understand" - well, sorry, but THAT is bullshit - people are MUCH more connected these days, and rather than retreating back into your cold war cave, you would be better advised to wake up and smell the coffee - look at what has happened across the world's repressive regimes in the last two years....Putin,the church and a corrupt judiciary may send these three women to a labor camp in Siberia for two years (if they end up locking them away for that long)but the argument is FAR from over...they won't just 'disappear'...and it may be that Putin has misjudged the benefit of making an "example" out of them...lets see what happens when they get the case to the European Court of Human Rights - or is that just a load of western nonsense we should just "get over" ???

As for Marat's position on this - we don't KNOW whether he agrees or disagrees do we, because he has never commented on ANYTHING significant related to an issue of public concern such as this - you overstate your case by resorting to this kind of meaningless rhetoric - "a diabolical party seeking the fall of Russia and world domination?!" really???
It would not be "impossible" to "accept" that he agrees with what is being perpetrated by the power-brokers in the Kremlin - and I don't recall suggesting that that if he DID, that would make him either "stupid' or "evil" - just - in my opinion - "wrong".
 
#21 ·
Great analysis Little Masha. We all have these problems and in the US most of the perpetrators of such things are ignored when in fact they should have to pay for their "hooliganism." I think anyone who goes into politics in any country is in for a lot of disappointment and unfair criticism. It's a hard job. We should support Marat in his efforts to make his country better, whatever view he takes of this.
 
#27 ·
Oh, dear!

Physical distance from Russia does not, by itself, alter the press capacity to correctly report on Russia.

However, the Western world, as a whole, does place itself on an antagonistical position with Russia and, to me, this is the work of politicians and press (mainly of the politicized press) because, really, the vast majority of the Western world anyway ignores Russian realities.

However, we still fear they may come for us!

And while that may be possible, I doubt it is reflected by this Pussy Riot affair - which is, honestly and with all my responsability as a bankruptcy and criminal law laywer, a case of overexposed hooliganism, which, due to the high exposure, has become too hot to be handled as a mere misdemeanour.

So, some chicks (I refuse to reffer politely, excuse me. What they did was plain silly, so I don t care about their background as rocket scientists and journalism students or being articulate. You wanna protest/send a message/whatever...make it seriously, not as an insulting circus. Because if I were a deeply religious person, I would definitely feel insulted by their act) stage a small hooliganic act in church, they become a media sensation, the opposition cries violation of human rights (of course they do), some street protests follow, the Western world if after your ass once again because as long as you are their main potential opponent, they will always be.

What would you do?

What do you do in a country too big and ethnically diverse to be governed liberally, which harbours half the neo-nazis of the world?

You set an example, once and for all, in order to avoid future attention seeking pseudo-artists to cause a media stirr that will offer the Westerners a great oportunity to paint you black.

As for ruling Russia democraticaly, are we even serious?

I don t thik that s possible.

Every time I go there I say to myself that well, democracy may sound great, but there are cases (Russian being one) when it is simply imposible.

I have once seen a scene on the street in Sankt Petersburg where some skinheads literally attacked 2 Asian looking fellows (I was later told that they must of been from the Eurasian part of Russia) and I was shocked to see that people didn t react. They looked away.

I started aggitating around until my friend got out of the building in front of which I was expecting him and said be quiet, we don t want to get involved in such thing.

This is the kind of thing that I reffer to when I say that we should all be concerned about other things, much more serious and frequent, happening in Russia.

You wanna cry violation of human rights, how about those people I ve seen chased on a street in Petersburg? How about a pletora of Russian lawyers juridically qualify that particular incident, how about Kasparov and the rest of the opposition hold their hands and try to put a stop to incidents like the one above?

Such incidents are not glamourous enough to be publicized and gather the attention of Western press and Madonna.

Those Eurasians don t put a mask o their face and make a fool of themselves in a Church. They simply come to the big cities, chased by a terrible poverty in their native lands, to be trated like inferior race, chased on the streets, hit, underpaid, etc.

So, in my opinion, we should all keep a sense of proportions. Maybe those chicks could have gotten away with a fine, but given the media and social storm it created, I would have put them to jail myself. I m sure there is a solution for their kids to be taken care of, thair mothers should have been more responsible.

These girls have become stars. They will come out of the prison pseudo-martyrs, just for having spent 1 year and a half in prison (the 5 month prior to the trial will be deduced). Maybe they will be released earlier for good behaviour.

I have seen most media coverage regarding this affair, their small interviews and I think they acually enjoy all this circus (specially the curly-haired blond one) because it made some empty-headed nobodies human rights martyrs.

They sure are no Solzhenitsyn. But they will be revered just as much.

And this is plain unfair.
 
#28 ·
So, in my opinion, we should all keep a sense of proportions. Maybe those chicks could have gotten away with a fine, but given the media and social storm it created, I would have put them to jail myself.
Those "chicks" should have been treated according to the law and not according to yours or anyone's idea of appropriety. According to the law they should have been fined. Even if charged with hooliganism they should have been released on bail till the trial as they don't pose a threat. Media and social storm was created by apparently unjust detention and trial , not by their act in Church.

I m sure there is a solution for their kids to be taken care of, thair mothers should have been more responsible.
Their mothers didn't commit a felony and didn't expect to be put in prison. Their mothers are expressing their feminist views by peacful protests acts.


These girls have become stars. They will come out of the prison pseudo-martyrs, just for having spent 1 year and a half in prison (the 5 month prior to the trial will be deduced).
oh my, are you serious? Are you aware of what russian prison is like? 5 month in russian prison is more than enough punishment.

I have seen most media coverage regarding this affair, their small interviews and I think they acually enjoy all this circus (specially the curly-haired blond one) because it made some empty-headed nobodies human rights martyrs.
One thing is for sure, they are not empty headed. They have very strong ideas and they are ready to stand by them.
Curly-haired blond one has seen her 5 y/o son only once during 5 month, through a glass wall. This blond is a religious person herself who volunteered to work with sick children under Orthodox charity organisation. She's fighted the authorities destroying forests. She did all this before the stunt in Church. Calling her empty -headed and saying that she enjoys this is plain cruel.

This trial is an insult and a warning to all normal people.

"Judge Marina Syrova declared in monotone how Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Ekaterina Samutsevich and Maria Alyokhina, two of them mothers, conspired to wear clothing that was an offence against church rules, "colluded" to produce a guitar and amplifier and "demonstratively and cynically" defied "the Orthodox world… devaluing centuries of revered and protected dogmas". In all this, the world learned from the judge, the women's "religious hatred" was motivated "by way of them being feminists who consider men and women to be equal".

Perhaps most ridiculous of all was the cod psychology deployed to damn the women, asserting that the defendants "suffered from mixed personality disorder displayed by their active position in life".
 
#33 ·
Look, Mer, I don t want to offend anyone. It s obvious that we see things differently.

This is simply an exchange of ideas, I hope we all get this right, ok?

The above is strictly my opinion.

I never said they should go to jail for feminism (although I would not give those girls as an example of feminism because I see feminism as a serious and responsible thing, not quite like their little act, which to me actually seemed a bit cartoonly ridiculous), but for something that I see as an overexposed case of hooliganism which, do to said overexposure is dangerously electrifying for Russian society, especially since so backed-up by the Westerns press. And Madonna.

And although I don t live in Russia day to day and I m not Russian myself (yet very connected through family and business and frequently travelling there) I do believe that an autocratic regime is the only way to rule such a colossal affair as Russia.

Good or bad, to me it seems like the only way. At least for now.

As I said above, I have seen terrible things in Russia. I have even exemplified with something that I found outrageous, i.e. the way Russian society (ok, the majority of it) treats people from those Eurasian small countries.

That is scandalous to me (although I see that on that topic I didn t get an answer) and that is an example of something that I believe should galvanize the progressist part of Russian society, Madonna and the whole world much more that the Pussy Riot case.

But it doesn t and this I find particularly disturbing. What did Madonna & Red Hot Chilli Peppers have to say about the Georgian war, after all?

I don t know what Putin s trustee said. I live connected with a prety big group of Russian expats running business in Romania. Two of them are, as a background, lawyers like me. None of them saw in this Pussy Riot thing such a terrible case of violation of human rights or anything else than hooliganism, severly punished yes, but still, within the limits of the Russian law.

As regards the juridical qualification and penalty applicable, its not correct to say that the penalty they should have received under Russian law was just a fine.

I see that pursuant to art. 213 (*) of the Russian Criminal Code, the maximum penalty is 2 years. Although I didn t see the judgement, I presume that having been committed in public, by an organised group of people and, of course, premeditatedly, the judge went for the maximum available. So it s not actually like they invented come coercition just for them.

I did t intend to sound cruel when I said that the blond seemed a bit satisfied with the publicity their act got (actually, all three of them).

That is strictly my opinion, although, of course, due to my job maybe I tend to see the worst in people. If she has a kid who is now in some difficult situation, its of course regretable, but she should have got this covered when she embarked on a protestatary career. If she didn t, I still don t think we should blame Putin for it.

As for the blond being a religious person, who volunteered for several causes under the patronage of the Church...look, I m Christian Orthodox, and although not necessary practicing, I still find that kind of circus in a church insulting.

You got to say something about the Church getting involved with the State, do it decently.

And if you are a real protester at least SHOW YOUR FACE when you protest!

This is already a very long discussion, so let s not quarell over different opinions. I respect yours, please respect mine.

________________________

(*) Article 213. Hooliganism

1. Hooliganism, that is, a gross violation of the public order which expresses patent contempt for society, attended by violence against private persons or by the threat of its use, and likewise by the destruction or damage of other people's property,
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 120 to 180 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of six to twelve months, or by arrest for a term of four to six months, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to two years.
2. The same act, if it is:
a) committed by a group of persons, a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or an organized group;
b) connected with resistance to a representative of authority or to any other person who fulfills the duty of protecting the public order or who prevents violation of the public order;
c) committed by a person who was earlier convicted of hooliganism-
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.
3. Hooliganism committed with the use of arms or objects used as arms
shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of four to eight years.

 
#36 ·
I never said they should go to jail for feminism (although I would not give those girls as an example of feminism because I see feminism as a serious and responsible thing, not quite like their little act, which to me actually seemed a bit cartoonly ridiculous), but for something that I see as an overexposed case of hooliganism which, do to said overexposure is dangerously electrifying for Russian society, especially since so backed-up by the Westerns press. And Madonna.
I do agree that the act itself was ridiculous. Actually majority of those who support them in russia agree on that. The girls themselves has said that it was an ethical mistake to protest inside the Church and they said sorry to all those who were offended.
As for feminism issue that's what the injured party lawer and the judge mentioned as a their motivation of the act which made it serious offence. The line "Mother of God become a feminist" was considered as deeply offensive and a prove that the girls were motivated by religious hatred.
(*) Article 213. Hooliganism

1. Hooliganism, that is, a gross violation of the public order which expresses patent contempt for society, attended by violence against private persons or by the threat of its use, and likewise by the destruction or damage of other people's property,
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 120 to 180 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of six to twelve months, or by arrest for a term of four to six months, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to two years.
2. The same act, if it is:
a) committed by a group of persons, a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or an organized group;
b) connected with resistance to a representative of authority or to any other person who fulfills the duty of protecting the public order or who prevents violation of the public order;
c) committed by a person who was earlier convicted of hooliganism-
shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.
3. Hooliganism committed with the use of arms or objects used as arms
shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of four to eight years.

The point is there was no violence, no threat of its use, and no destruction or damage of other people's property.

As I said above, I have seen terrible things in Russia.
That's right. And the "Pussy Riot" group and their supporters are protesting even though sometimes in a silly way against all these terrible things. The target is the current corrupted to core system of power in Russia which causes many of those terrible things.


If she has a kid who is now in some difficult situation, its of course regretable, but she should have got this covered when she embarked on a protestatary career. If she didn t, I still don t think we should blame Putin for it.
If you think that Putin and the Church has nothing to do with the verdict, well...

As for the blond being a religious person, who volunteered for several causes under the patronage of the Church...look, I m Christian Orthodox, and although not necessary practicing, I still find that kind of circus in a church insulting.
Insult itself is punished by fine according to the russian law and frankly, no offence, but those offended could shove it. I'd like them to spend 5 months in prison and then say how much their moral suffering caused by a silly act correspond with moral suffering of being held in prison and not being able to see your small children.


And if you are a real protester at least SHOW YOUR FACE when you protest!
First you say they are just seeking attention, then you say they should show their faces.
Masks are the part of their ideology - they want to stress that their personalities doesn't matter, their faces pretty or not doesn't matter, what matters is the idea and anyone can be the part of "pussy riot"


I respect your opinion. I just wished you understand that it's not about these 3 girls and what they did. It's about the starting of civil cold war between two Russia's and it's about possible future Russia will take. One is authoritarian, traditional based on uneducated masses, another is modern Russia who wants to have simple european values, who want the State to respect an individual etc. This is a critical moment in Russia, that's why the girls' stunt and the trial caused such a storm. It's not only West who protest. Inside Russia lot's of so called intelligensia are shocked with the trial and are seriously worried that russia is going back history wise.
 
#34 ·
Inez,

I m sorry but I feel the need to use derogatory terms for the girls in question because, to me, the way they acted does not serve feminism, but actually makes women seem ridiculous.

What sort of a feminist denomination is PUSSY Riot?!

And feminists don t understand why they are mocked by (machist) men!

I do strongly feel for feminist causes (were there no feminist 3 generations before me, I would deffinitely not be a lawyer today, so...), but I do think that a poignant message is a seriously sent message.

To me, what they did was plain circus and even worse if they are actually educated women.
 
#37 ·
Clearly, IRONY is a foreign concept - to some, it would seem...and as for feminists being "mocked' by men...what??!! - does that make the WOMEN wrong - or the men pathetic and gutless? I disagree - I think 'feminists' clearly see why men mock them - because they can't handle equality, and women who do not automatically see themselves as the servants of men = that's why! jesus!! I don't know what you consider to be "serving feminism" - but condemning women for taking a stand - even if you may find their methods insulting or confronting, is merely pandering to the status quo...you appear to be asserting that the fact that you can practice as a lawyer is related to generations of feminists before you - and I am sure you are right - but don't you think the women who paved the way for your career today were NOT DEMONISED by their male contemporary society? its just as well for you that the pussy rioters of the previous century didn't give up because it was all too hard...
 
#35 ·
little masha - I'm finding it hard to see your re-statement of your opinion, while ignoring the issues and information provided by Mer - as an "exchange' of views - please clarify for me the following:
"I have seen terrible things in Russia. I have even exemplified with something that I found outrageous, i.e. the way Russian society (ok, the majority of it) treats people from those Eurasian small countries."
How does the persecution of these women for stating their views differ from the racism (not to mention sexism and homophobia) that you claim to abhor?
"I don t know what Putin s trustee said." Mer just quoted what he said = any comment on that?
" Although I didn t see the judgement, I presume that having been committed in public, by an organised group of people and, of course, premeditatedly, the judge went for the maximum available. So it s not actually like they invented come coercition just for them."
I would have though as a Lawyer, the LAST thing you would do is "Presume" ANYTHING - and the LAw as quoted form your source, does not appear to justify the sentence - which, as Mer pointed out, was based NOT on the charge of "hooliganism" - but on the clearly trumped up charge of "Religious hatred"....

"This is already a very long discussion, so let s not quarell over different opinions. I respect yours, please respect mine."
I agree - however, disagreeing with you, or challenging your precepts, is NOT the same as not "respecting your opinion"
 
#39 ·
They were charged for hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, but hooliganism is the felony, ok?

I exemplified with terrible things happening in Russian in oder to point out that there are other, more serious and frequent matters, that deserve much more attention, yet don t get it.

I don t know what Putin s trustee said is a way of saying I don t care what he said, but I still believe that the deciosn was correct. English is not my mother tongue.

Lawyers always asume things, we don t build bridges, we asume things and try to make people adopt our vision of a matter, correct or wrong, fair or unfair, if required by our client interest (you obviously didn t have issues with the law or any other contact with lawyers and that is actually a great thing. I honestly hope you never need the services of my peers).

And you obviously don t respect my opinion. If I reffer derogatively to the 3 women in question, I am free to do it, I don t adress to them directly. I talk to people in here and I do it politely. Dont point me out for doing it, were not in school. I can call Che Guevara an anarchist manwhore if I wish (of course I wouldnt) and yet you should not point me out.

Excuse me, I may be wrong, but from your replies to my posts, I somehow get the impression that you probably consider me some merciless dumb retrograd antifeminist who speaks for the sake of speaking, while definitely ignoring what fredom of speech and democracy mean.

All I can say is that you must accept, for the sake of the same freedom of speech claimed in regards to those women, that people may have different opinions even in regards to a case presented as violation of human rights.

To me, the case in question is no such thing. I am bothered by the fact that, in my opinion, it somehow steals the attention that other issues deserve.

The reason why I see things the way I do is (obviously) my living in Romania. This is a contry of a new and debatable democracy, currently undergoing a coup d etat (probably backed up by the Russians).

So democracy may be a great thing, but its a luxury applicable to developed societies. To an underdeveloped society, it may be a plain calamity.

This is why I m saing that an underdeveloped society requires an autocratic (not dictatorship, I never said that) rule.
 
#42 ·
They were charged for hooliganism motivated by religious hatred, but hooliganism is the felony, ok?
They didn't commit hooliganism as there was no violence, threat of violence or any destruction of property. And even if we consider it's hooliganism they wouldn't be sent to jail considering no criminal record and kids. They would get suspended sentence or community work. The main point here is "religious hatred" - this is what gives the judge an excuse to send them to prison. How do you prove religious hatred motivation? Apparently for russian court their feminist views and LGBT support is a prove that they were motivated by hatred. If you don't think this is a terrible thing for human rights cause...Seriously, I feel ridiculous explaining all this.
 
#40 ·
little masha, clearly we have opposing views on the issues raised by the pussy riot trial - I can't see that we are going to agree about the significance of the trial and the verdict = and I certainly do not see how my challenging your opinion suggests that I in ANY way "consider me (you) some merciless dumb retrograd antifeminist who speaks for the sake of speaking, while definitely ignoring what fredom of speech and democracy mean." - I DO, however, disagree with your view = on many different levels - but I defend your right to express those views as passionately as I defend the right of pussy riot to state their views without being put in JAIL - ridiculous or misguided as they may be considered to have been...perhaps we really ought to leave it there.
 
#44 · (Edited)
little_masha why do think this case got such a public impact? Why public was gravely offended? In fact the public had no idea about this act or simply didn't care. Until the girls were arrested and state controlled tv channels started a massive smear campaign portraying these girls as witches and puppets of the evil West whose goal is to destroy the Russia etc.

So, basically, authorities purposefully ignited the hatred and then they made the polls and said, look, most of the public want the girls severely punished.

If the law had been followed and there was no unjust arrest and the girls were just fined within a week, the whole thing would have been forgotten immediately , no offended public, no outcry from the West about human rights. Nothing.

But the authorities decided to make a show trial which turned into a joke, with all this "feminism is a mortal sin" and "mixed personality disorder displayed by active position in life" and so called experts condemning the girls guilty based on X century Church laws, with not letting the defence to call their witness and experts, and the crazy dog in the courtroom barking and trying to attack the defendants.

So, Putin and the Church got what they deserved.
 
#47 ·
...holy mother of god - if it wasn't so serious, the hilarious absurdity of these proceedings would be comedy GOLD...and some people might argue that the Moscow Metro IS "hell"......meaning I am more than likely to be spending eternity hovering around Mayakovskaya for my "sins"...;)
 
#48 ·
Was reading through the latest issue of Private Eye, and this just made me LMAO.

ASSANGE FEARS BEING HELD IN SWEDISH DETENTION CENTRE

by Our Swedish Correspondent Not Bjorn Yesterday



Friends of Julian Assange say the WikiLeaks founder fears being detained in one of Sweden's notorious IKEA detention centres.

"These brutal and desensitising IKEA facilities make Guantanamo Bay look like the Ritz", said one WikiLeaks supporter. "Once inside the labyrinth-like building you are deprived of natural light and forced to drudge round seemingly in circles for up to eighteen hours a day, looking for a set of drawers, a kitchen unit and a side table, while having an argument with your partner".

Swedish authorities insisted that, by handing himself over to a self-assembly tribunal within an IKEA facility, Julian Assange could be freed more quickly, as the cases they build are extremely flimsy and fall apart within minutes.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

Transcription of Marat's interview for the TV programme "Bez Galstuka" ("Without a Tie") during his visit to Nizhny Novgorod a fortnight ago. Via NTA Nizhny Novgorod.

Finally we hear his views about Pussy Riot: "They are worthless, stupid girls who want attention, and who got it, and more than they expected".

Which is pretty hypocritical ironic, considering the heading of the article. :rolleyes:

Duma deputy Marat Safin: "You can't think that there is only black and white, and the deputies are idiots".

 
#51 ·
Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

how incredibly, incredibly depressing....even though the translation turns some of his responses into impossible gobbledegook....I can no longer deny the reality...he really is an unreconstructed neanderthal and sadly - a 'real' politician' after all = talking talking and saying nothing - and reactionary to boot......R.I.P whatever respect I had left for him :-(
 
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