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NATO does it again

3K views 73 replies 15 participants last post by  Or Levy 
#1 ·
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.
 
#3 ·
Lillehammer is one of their better efforts.
 
#7 ·
You face it - unless Israel is involved, you don't care.;)
Bet you never heard of Richard Goldstone (from your opening post) before Gaza war, although that prick is involved in dirty business for long time now. ;)
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.
:haha:
Don't be sure.:secret:
NATO kills civilians PURPOSELY, but in Newspeak that is called "collateral damage":awww: While all victims of NATO's enemy are victims of "massacre":eek:, :"atrocities":eek:, "genocide":eek:.
 
#8 ·
You face it - unless Israel is involved, you don't care.;)
Bet you never heard of Richard Goldstone (from your opening post) before Gaza war, although that prick is involved in dirty business for long time now. ;)

:haha:
Don't be sure.:secret:
NATO kills civilians PURPOSELY, but in Newspeak that is called "collateral damage":awww: While all victims of NATO's enemy are victims of "massacre":eek:, :"atrocities":eek:, "genocide":eek:.
Ah, slight difference. I care what's going on with Israel more because that's where I live. Just like I expect a Palestinian to care more about Gaza and the west bank than people in Afganistan.

What I fail to understand is why the UN/the middle east seem to care more about the civillians from Palestine than civillians from Afganistan.

The main difference is that in one conflict Israel is involved, and not in the others.

Double standard? Where is the UN report who blame NATO of war crimes because civillians got hurt?
 
#16 ·
they could do a CSI:Miami,Las Vegas or New York like version of Mossad, they are a highly efficent crew I must say...
they are - which is why i doubt their involvement in the whole dubai thing. those guys have been flat out amateurs, killing someone publicly, leaving tons of traces and so on. that's not how the mossad works. in the same way you can basically rule out any kgb (at least the inner circles) involvement in the litvinenko murder.
 
#9 ·
Yes, double standards. You are stating the obvious.

But you fail to accept that double standards didn't come up for the first time these days (not even if the same participants are included - NATO, UN, Goldstone).

Double standards happened many times before in non-Israel related cases which you don't know or you don't care about. ;)
 
#10 ·
This post isn't about all the wrongs in the world since the beginning of time (or the 20th century). I'm aware there are more, trust me.

You want to bring it up, do so - and I'll respond (and perhaps learn about things I haven't known about before).
 
#11 ·
They should learn from Israel about avoiding innocent casualties.
 
#12 ·
awwww poor ickle Israel. must be so hard for them to listen to inconsequential international crticism that has zero effect on them or their murderous occupation in gaza. yes, inconsequential. you seem to ignore that crucial fact.

don't you remember the threads about the Islamist group in the UK planning to picket soldiers funerals in protest at the murder of civilans in Afghanistan? there are protests against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan all the time.

Like Zeleni said, it's not that no one cares when Israel isn't involved, it's that you don't.

Nato are incompetent pricks who haven't got the slightest clue about what they're even trying to do in Afghanistan if you really want to hear some crticism. And negligence with such consequences is undoubtedly a crime.

You're point about Israel being an easier target for the UN is obviously correct given the huge overlap in Nato and UN membership.
 
#15 ·
because the Arab world is more concerned with the situation in Gaza and the crimes Israel commit daily in Palestine than elsewhere, you worry about your 1st neighbor more than your 40th neighbor.
 
#18 ·
I'm thinking that I don't know how is that different from assasinations using airplanes without pilots like what is going on in Afganistan to kill Taliban commandors, which happens all the time. Only you don't accidently hit innocent people that way. Bombing from the air is a lot easier and a lot more risky for a country than sending operatives.

As for the use of passports, I'm conflicted, loads of problems with it but as apperantly we're talking about people with Duel Israeli citizenship who reside in Israel, I guess they'll be those raising the questions with my goverment, if the Mossad is indeed responsible.

As for the Brits and the Irish and whoever bitchin' about the use of their passport, last time I checked, many of the countries in Europe are communicating and exchanging information with the Mossad all the time, so they can't really cry foul now. Anyway, the passport numbers which were used don't match the numbers on the real passports (these are not stolen passports, I mean), and everyone knows they were fake, so I don't see them really getting detained.

One last thing- if the next argument is "Why not seize him (proven and self confessed terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors) and bring him to justice" my reply would be "Because then they kidnap more Israeli soldiors and demend the relase of terrorist trialed and brought to justice".

Now that I've answered YOUR question (as honestly as I can), how about you answer mine?
 
#22 ·
I'm thinking that I don't know how is that different from assasinations using airplanes without pilots like what is going on in Afganistan to kill Taliban commandors, which happens all the time. Only you don't accidently hit innocent people that way. Bombing from the air is a lot easier and a lot more risky for a country than sending operatives.

As for the use of passports, I'm conflicted, loads of problems with it but as apperantly we're talking about people with Duel Israeli citizenship who reside in Israel, I guess they'll be those raising the questions with my goverment, if the Mossad is indeed responsible.

As for the Brits and the Irish and whoever bitchin' about the use of their passport, last time I checked, many of the countries in Europe are communicating and exchanging information with the Mossad all the time, so they can't really cry foul now. Anyway, the passport numbers which were used don't match the numbers on the real passports (these are not stolen passports, I mean), and everyone knows they were fake, so I don't see them really getting detained.

One last thing- if the next argument is "Why not seize him (proven and self confessed terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors) and bring him to justice" my reply would be "Because then they kidnap more Israeli soldiors and demend the relase of terrorist trialed and brought to justice".

Now that I've answered YOUR question (as honestly as I can), how about you answer mine?
Yea, this time everyone knows their fake. How do you know that the next time this happens it won't be clear that forged passports were used and that the individuals whose identities were stolen won't end up being targeted?

And regarding the British and Irish bitching about it, you're argument doesn't make sense. Because they collaborate with the Mossad they allow for the privacy of their citizens to be violated? I guess my passport's up for grabs, too, then. And hasn't this been an issue in the past? Didn't the British bitch out the Mossad for the exact same reason? It's not like the Israelis can legitimately claim that this was a one-time mistake. They knowingly went against the wishes of an ally. I'd be pissed too if I was British and I'd question whether collaborating with the Mossad in the future is in my best interest.
 
#19 ·
Can someone explain something to me? Everyone knows the people involved in the hit were not the people named in the passports. Yet Dubai is asking for the arrest of the people named in the passports, right? Is Dubai knowingly asking for the arrest of innocent people?

And the photos that were published around the world. Are they of the hitmen or of the innocent people? I could not get this clear in the press reports.

And Levy's comment about the Brits and Irish bitchin' about stolen identities is ridiculous. Just because a government co-operates with another doesn't give the other the right to break international law. If Israel did this, I hope the British and Irish governments cut them loose.
 
#23 ·
Honestly, I just don't know enough about the Mossad 'understandings' with forgien agenicies to give any kind of educated response.

I'm not sure British operatives have never used faked forgien passport for their activities.(Neither do you). I'm not sure whether the goverments officially condanming REALLY mean it, or are they doing it because it is expected of them to protest but that this is not going to be a big deal. I'm sure no one is pleased, but I don't know if they are as pissed off as they are pretending to be.

What I'm hearing from the Israeli newspapers, is that we're going to get a slap on the wrist, and that's it.

Are we getting only a slap of the wrist because no one can prove it was the Mossad, because nobody cares a Hammas terrorist died, or because forgien agencies (MI-5, etc) are doing similiar things, I don't know. I honestly don't. I think there is more to the story than we'd ever know.

As for the passports - real name, fake passports, fake photos (some of the people there are disguised).
 
#26 ·
Huh? Say what you want about the recent Mossad story (whether it was the Mossad or not, I don't know), it was exactly the opposite of killing innocent civillians.

The assasins killed a known terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors in cold blood, and was traveling in Dubai under an alias. I'm not sure how it is relevent to the subject of my post at all. Explain please.
 
#27 ·
Mossad, my favourite identity stealing was one of an invalid New Zealander who had no chance of travelling abroad.
 
#34 ·
i do know what it means but i'm not sure if i understand what you're getting at. do you believe it's right to blame putin for hits ordered by abramovich because in the end, they're all russians and it boils down to the kreml for creating monsters like good ole roman?
 
#39 ·
I just feel that those hits could not have taken place without Putin's approval.
why? i don't think it's that hard to kill people when you're a professional hitman. the victims we're talking about here weren't shielded from the public in any way.

buddyholly said:
Anyway, I thought Litvinenko had stated that Putin would try to assassinate Abramovich. How does that make you suspect Abramovich had Litvinenko killed?
if abramovich was a true pain in the ass for putin, he'd be dead by now. anyways, it doesn't really matter what oligarch is actually behind it. i just refuse to believe that putin would allow such a public lynching in western europe when he could've put some stones on the guy's feet and simply sink him in the baltic sea just as easily. like i said, either this was some ex-kgb fringe group going for vendetta or stuff like that, or it was business-related - which is far more likely, if you ask me. litvinenko had tons of shady acquaintances, from gunrunners to smugglers, ex-kgb hitmen to drug cartel billionaires. i'd think it's fairly easy to get mixed up in all kinds of shenanigans out there.
 
#36 ·
I can understand that middle easterns are angry at Israel, I dont get why Swedish media is obsessed about Israel and doesnt care about conflicts that are literaly 100 times worse in human suffering. It gets scary how the swedish media threats the conflict like the new holocaust and how many terrible scenes of suffering are shown in swedish television to make everyone in Sweden revolt against Israel and demand boycot of their products and even davis cup matches. No one in Sweden demands boycot of China, Russia, Turkey, Sudan or any other country that has been in conflict with minorities, no one really cares about Kurdistan, Tibet, Darfur and many other struggles for independence. So I understand jewish feels there is somekind of antisemitism deeply rooted in societies that critisize Israel, yet I promise you that there are really alot more antisemitism in Israelfriendly USA than in Swedish society, I have never been in touch with any antisemitic feelings with swedish people, except many arabs who live here that is. I think the obsession comes more because Israel is such a close ally with the USA and Swedish media is in general very much to the left, so they see Israel and american conflicts in middle east as a symbol for the struggle against western capitalist imperialism. So dont take it personal Levy, if you come to Sweden and say you are jewish no one will threat you bad but if you say you are from Israel you will get many uncomfortable questions and if you defend Israel most simply wont accept it and think you are defending murdering of little children they have seen in the swedish state television.
 
#41 ·
russian politics - big and bad.
russian business - smaller but even worse.

again, let me ask you: what use does the litvinenko death with all its circumstances have for putin? shock and awe at home? first of all, i believe most anti-kreml agitators knew very well what the kreml was and is capable of. there's just no need to go for another case study, at least not with all the collateral damage (worldwide public outcry, international investigations, diplomatic hassle etc.) stuff like that inevitably comes along with. it just doesn't make sense to me.

what DOES make sense though is hiring a hitman to kill a guy that knows WAY too much about WAY too many things and then blame it on the kreml.
 
#46 ·
@ marc

no matter how much you (rightly so or not, i don't know) diss your country, you do realise that most of the world loves sweden, right? i mean, i guess if germans had to compile a list of foreign countries they love most, there's quite a likelihood that sweden would come out on top, among australia. we love your education system, your friendliness, your girls, your crime fiction and tons more, and so does the world.

and even during ww2 sweden did much better than most european countries, what are you on about?
 
#47 ·
Yes, as I have traveled quite alot I have noticed that people really idealize alot of things in my country. I really dont get how our education system can be an example to the rest of the western countries anymore (maybe they once were, but not in my generation), our girls are quite beautiful to watch from a long distance but if you get close you will see that even the sun has it dark spots. When it comes to our friendliness, we are easily friendly to strangers but we do not often become friends with strangers. Our crime fiction is ridiculous for a swede to read, as there hardly is any crime in Sweden, Stig Larsson and Mankell invent a dark Sweden that doesnt exist (ok this is fiction, but all weird conspiracies in specialy Stig Larssons books is incredibly silly).

Most european countries are ashamed of what they did in the second world war, in Sweden most are proud of our cowardly behavior in the second world war (that is what I am ashamed of, not what swedes did before I was born).

Ok, now I am going overboard about this, I love my country but the myth of Sweden is not quite the reality we live in over here.
 
#50 ·
Seems Mossad know stole some Australian passports from its citizens living in Israel.
 
#51 ·
Of course there are criminal organisations in Scandinavia for the fuck sake they have them in Iceland. It's run by people who don't want to bring too much attention to themselves.
 
#52 ·
Yes, ofcourse there are criminal organisations but in these criminal stories they have organisations controlling every part of swedish society, including politicians, the police and the legal institutions like in Napoli. Stig Larsson who is the most sold author from Sweden was a paranoid communist who actually belived that all rich people were sociopathic perverts who could control every part of society and **** little girls in their basements without getting punnished. Whole milenium trilogy is a femministic/communistic wet masturbation fantasy were rich perverted capitalist men have a reign of terror and democracy is just a facade, where all institutions in society are actually bought and women are threated like animals. If the story atleast took place in USA he could get away with it but the whole deal gets awfully silly when it takes place in quiet, boring social democratic Sweden where a politician's career is over if he forgets to pay the obligatory state TV charge and where we together with the rest of scandinavia tops the low corruption rankings every year.
 
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