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-   -   Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic? (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=196221)

sexybeast 01-30-2012 03:32 PM

Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
In the same spirit as my thread comparing Djokovic and Wilander when Djoko had won only 2 slams, I would like to ask the numerologists in MTF if they think Courier is a greater claycourter than Federer and Djokovic because 2>1>0?

I always find Courier high up in lists comparing greats on clay because of his 2 titles in RG, but besides those what has he really acomplished on clay? I look at 5 clay titles in his whole career, I look at those draws and wonder what was going on with clay when his main rival on the surface was a very young Andre Agassi, one year I see he beats Todd Martin in R4, Edberg in QF and Stich in SF and finaly barely teenager Agassi in the 5 sets final. 3 serve and volleyers and one american who barely ever played on red clay and doesnt know how to move on the surface, really?

I watched the whole match against Agassi and I really wondered these 2 americans who cant properly move on clay and didnt grow up on the surface would match up against Djokovic who grew up on the surface and has beyond incredible movement, how come they are both consider greater claycourters than Djokovic?

Further more I would like to ask you if Courier would have a chanse to win RG in this era, not only that but would he win RG in Borg's era? You see, I am not trying to say players are better today than before, I am just saying Courier's era sucks, not Kuerten's or Borg's eras. Please dont bring up the raquet technology BS, Nadal would beat Courier with 90s raquet had he been born 15 years earlier and you know it.

Anyway, I will move on and give MTF numerologists some numbers aswell on clay:

Courier vs Federer vs Djokovic on clay:

Number of RG titles: 2/1/0

Number of RG finals: 3/5/0

Number of clay master series: 2/5/3

Number of clay master series finals: 2/12/5

Clay titles: 5/9/7

Clay W/L: 68.5%/76.5%/76.2%


Keep in mind that taking into consideration without playing Nadal Federer got 80.9% and Djokovic impressive 81.6% on clay, Courier's 68.5% is truly mediocre in comparassion. Also look at Federer beeing in 17 big clay finals (master series+RG) compared to Courier's 5 big clay finals, Federer losing 10 times to Nadal in big clay finals, Djokovic losing 8 times in SF or F of big clay tournaments.

As you see Courier only got the lead in one cathegory which is most RG titles, against Djokovic he leads in 2 cathegories (both RG and RG finals), keep in mind that Djokovic in his peak lost to Nadal and Federer before the final 4 times.

So, I would love to hear some counter arguments from all those who put Courier as nr6 or 7 as in the greatest claycourters of all time, will be interesting to hear what you have in mind.

LawrenceOfTennis 01-30-2012 03:36 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Even clay courts were pretty different back then.
Federer has had to face the best clay courter in history, same for Djokovic.
But Courier had much tougher draws at the Garros, considering how many great clay courter played that time.
I would say Federer is the best out of the 3, and until Djokovic does not have an RG title, I would say Courier is the 2nd one.

Action Jackson 01-30-2012 03:38 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
OP starting another one of these threads.

Why waste time. Modern players are better than the older ones, faster, fitter, stronger, more technique and skills, the conditions are different. That's the best way to sum it up.

sexybeast 01-30-2012 03:44 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawrenceOfTennis (Post 11703875)
Even clay courts were pretty different back then.
Federer has had to face the best clay courter in history, same for Djokovic.
But Courier had much tougher draws at the Garros, considering how many great clay courter played that time.
I would say Federer is the best out of the 3, and until Djokovic does not have an RG title, I would say Courier is the 2nd one.

What though draws are you talking about, this one?

RG 91:

R128 Derrick Rostagno (USA) 24 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-0
R64 Wayne Ferreira (RSA) 79 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-4
R32 Magnus Larsson (SWE) 46 W 6-3, 4-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-2
R16 Todd Martin (USA) 243 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
Q Stefan Edberg (SWE) 1 W 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4
S Michael Stich (GER) 12 W 6-2, 6-7(8), 6-2, 6-4
W Andre Agassi (USA) 4 W 3-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4

Or this one:

R128 Nicklas Kroon (SWE) 216 W 7-6(2), 6-4, 6-2
R64 Thomas Muster (AUT) 22 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-4
R32 Alberto Mancini (ARG) 18 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-0
R16 Andrei Medvedev (UKR) 175 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-2
Q Goran Ivanisevic (CRO) 9 W 6-2, 6-1, 2-6, 7-5
S Andre Agassi (USA) 12 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-2
W Petr Korda (CZE) 8 W 7-5, 6-2, 6-1

(keep in mind that Medvedev was 17 years old and Muster was not great on clay at that year). Doesnt look all that impressive to me, even Feds 2009 draw was probably more difficult than both years.

sexybeast 01-30-2012 03:45 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Action Jackson (Post 11703881)
OP starting another one of these threads.

Why waste time. Modern players are better than the older ones, faster, fitter, stronger, more technique and skills, the conditions are different. That's the best way to sum it up.

You think Courier would win RG titles in Borg's era then?

I really dont think so.

Sophocles 01-30-2012 03:45 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
It's far enough to say Fed's a greater clay-courter. Djokovic, no - not yet.

sexybeast 01-30-2012 03:48 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophocles (Post 11703904)
It's far enough to say Fed's a greater clay-courter. Djokovic, no - not yet.

Why, not yet? Achievmentwise I understand, but now I am not talking about achievments. Just a simple question, is Djokovic a greater claycourter than Courier? Was Nadal a greater claycourter than Courier 2005 before he won RG? Was Federer better than Courier in 2009?

sexybeast 01-30-2012 03:56 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Lets look at Courier's final opponents in his 5 big clay finals:

Won against:

Agassi 1991 RG final, Korda in 1992 RG final, Carlos Costa in Rome final 1992, Goran Ivanisevic in Rome final 1993.

Lost against: Sergi Bruguera in 1993 RG final.

So, his only though claycourter in a big clay tournament final was the one he lost to?

Compare with Federer:

Won against: Safin in Hamburg 2002 final, Coria in Hamburg 2004 final, Gasquet in Hamburg 2005 final, Nadal in Hamburg 2007 final, Nadal in Madrid 2009, Soderling in RG 2009.

Lost to: Nadal x 10 between 2006-2011 RG and master series finals and Mantilla 2003 Rome.

Djokovic won against: Nadal in ROme and Madrid 2011, Wawrinka in Rome 2008

Lost to: Nadal x2 (and Nadal x6 in SFs of RG and master series)

I dont know what though opponents Courier was playing on clay, but Ivanisevic, Korda and Agassi in big clay finals doesnt compare to what Djokovic and Federer is facing.

buzz 01-30-2012 04:19 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast (Post 11703902)
You think Courier would win RG titles in Borg's era then?

I really dont think so.

Borg was probably more ahead of his generation than Courier, so that will make it closer. But Couriers forehand would be a hell of a lot bigger than any forehand in that era. So I would put my money on courier.

sexybeast 01-30-2012 04:21 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by buzz (Post 11704019)
Borg was probably more ahead of his generation than Courier, so that will make it closer. But Couriers forehand would be a hell of a lot bigger than any forehand in that era. So I would put my money on courier.

You think Courier with a wooden raquet would have a forehand which could hurt Borg?

Nadal with 90s raquets wouldnt lose a set against Courier, Courier with 70s raquet wouldnt win a set against Borg and Nadal with 70s raquet would play endless 8 hour epics against Borg.....

buzz 01-30-2012 04:21 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
But when you look at clay achievements my rank by most impressive. For me it would be Federer>Courier>Djokovic

But djokovic is only 24, He might win 4rg (not that I'm putting money on that!)

sexybeast 01-30-2012 04:25 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by buzz (Post 11704032)
But when you look at clay achievements my rank by most impressive. For me it would be Federer>Courier>Djokovic

But djokovic is only 24, He might win 4rg (not that I'm putting money on that!)

You, are right. Federer wins against Courier not only because subjectively I think he is greater on clay but he has actually achieved alot more than Courier on this surface. Djokovic only wins because I think he is alot better than Courier, but with objective reasoning you cant say he has achieved more than Courier on clay.

However, I was asking for subjective analysis of their greatness on clay and not counting numbers.

buzz 01-30-2012 04:26 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast (Post 11704031)
You think Courier with a wooden raquet would have a forehand which could hurt Borg?

I don't know:) would Borg have such a forehand with modern equipment? I thiink you can only say whose achievements are better/more impressive. Who would beat who is just too hard because of big changes every generation(hence I quoted AJ in that post).

buzz 01-30-2012 04:32 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sexybeast (Post 11704038)

However, I was asking for subjective analysis of their greatness on clay and not counting numbers.

Djokovic could end with 0 RGs. For me his greatness would be effected in a big way. it's not a given that will win RG(s). greatness is gathered with achievements for me.

sexybeast 01-30-2012 04:32 PM

Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by buzz (Post 11704044)
I don't know:) would Borg have such a forehand with modern equipment? I thiink you can only say whose achievements are better/more impressive. Who would beat who is just too hard because of big changes every generation(hence I quoted AJ in that post).

AJ also says all greats would find a way in any era, I dont fully agree with that statement (Rosewall and Mcenroe would not find a way in the modern era, even Sampras doubtfully would achieve much, that is what I think atleast). However, I see absolutely no reason to question Borg's ability to learn a great forehand with 90s raquets or modern raquets, ofcourse it would be great and he would love to play in the modern grinding era of the 2000s, even if Djokovic and Nadal probably would give him a hell of a fight.

Anyway, Borg would beat Courier in any era on clay, that much I can say without any doubt.


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