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Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

26K views 360 replies 69 participants last post by  Ben D. 
#1 ·
Lance is basically considered a doper until proven innocent just by participation.

Why not Bolt?

He is dominating in a similar way.

I know a lot of ppl suspect Bolt but they are quicker to defend him than Lance.
 
#2 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Im not saying that it isn't as rife in athletics because it is. But pro cycling is riddled with dopers, and Armstrong having the inspiration story he does and success he has had would be a huge scalp for the doping authorities if they got him.

Bolt is obviously rigourously tested but also ridiculously talented also. If he clean sweeped the next Olympics, then that would be very suspicious.
 
#4 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Might it be because there aren't any strong indications that Bolt has actually tested positive as is the case for Armstrong?

Also, the unfounded belief that athletics is somehow cleaner than cycling is still widespread.
 
#214 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Might it be because there aren't any strong indications that Bolt has actually tested positive as is the case for Armstrong?

Also, the unfounded belief that athletics is somehow cleaner than cycling is still widespread.
My understanding is that Lance Armstrong has never tested positive for PED's.
 
#5 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

and none of Bolt´s teammates have declared about themselves and Bolt being doped
 
#9 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

He is more likable than Armstrong. In interviews, with sponsors, etc.

Plus sprinting really fast for 10 seconds, it looks more, "human" or possible to do for normal people, at least compared to biking for hours on end.
 
#19 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

He is more likable than Armstrong. In interviews, with sponsors, etc.

Plus sprinting really fast for 10 seconds, it looks more, "human" or possible to do for normal people, at least compared to biking for days on end.
I was about to say... but THIS. Also, corrected for accuracy ;).
 
#10 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Even his name is inadequate. If his name was Legstrong, nobody would dare question his achievements.
 
#29 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Even his name is inadequate. If his name was Legstrong, nobody would dare question his achievements.
Legstrong :haha:

In the US anyone can freely buy steroids but no Kinder Surprise.
A friend from Italy sent me one in the mail, it was tasty :sad:
 
#12 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Stupid Yankees didn't question at all the 46.06 of Lezak in the 4X100 meters relay of Beijing. He was celebrated as an hero.

( hint: world record of 100 meters: 46.91s )
(second hint: Agnel outstanding last anchor leg in London was only 46.74s)
 
#13 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

The Americans when their ladies broke the 4x100m record that stood from the GDR cheats in the 80s. No questions about drugs this time.
 
#17 ·
#15 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Ben Johnson was fried even though Carl Lewis and other Americans were doped to the eyeballs, but of course, nobody dared question them.

Carl Lewis has broken his silence on allegations that he was the beneficiary of a drugs cover-up, admitting he had tested positive for banned substances but claiming he was just one of "hundreds" of American athletes who were allowed to escape bans.

"There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same."

Lewis has now acknowledged that he failed three tests during the 1988 US Olympic trials, which under international rules at the time should have prevented him from competing in the Seoul games two months later.

The admission is a further embarrassment for the United States Olympic Committee, which had initially denied claims that 114 positive tests between 1988 and 2000 were covered up. It will add weight to calls by leading anti-doping officials and top athletes for an independent inquiry into the US's record on drug issues.
 
#16 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Armstrong was destroying proven dopers in his time so that also makes people question.
 
#39 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Armstrong was destroying proven dopers in his time so that also makes people question.
So is Bolt, and bolt is destroying olympic medalists and former WR holders, not just mid eventers. Ahem Justin Gatlin Ahem.
 
#25 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

I perfectly understood your point. As a matter of fact I heard it many times before and I always replied the same way.

Yes, a doper might also have raw talent (and be training hard), which might also be an element that explains his exceptional performances. But my point remains: why would this make the doper in question more respectable? Why would he be more respectable than a mug who suddenly becomes a star because of dope?

I think both cases are equally disgusting. I'm even inclined to say that the "talented" doper is even less respectable because at least, if he has talent, he'd still be able to compete in smaller events, and still earn a living. He's got no excuse.

No mercy for cheaters.
 
#26 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Yes, a doper might also have raw talent (and be training hard), which might also be an element that explains his exceptional performances. But my point remains: why would this make the doper in question more respectable? Why would he be more respectable than a mug who suddenly becomes a star because of dope?

I think both cases are equally disgusting. I'm even inclined to say that the "talented" doper is even less respectable because at least, if he has talent, he'd still be able to compete in smaller events, and still earn a living. He's got no excuse.

No mercy for cheaters.
Can't help but make analogies between Gasquet and Canas here.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

Last week Jakob Mørkeberg was quoted by the Danish news outlet DR Sport as saying that he had concerns about blood values posted by Lance Armstrong on the Livestrong.com website (link to external website opens in new window). The Bispebjerg Hospital anti-doping researcher has worked on many scientific studies, including a 2008 paper co-written with Belhage and Damsgaard entitled Changes in Blood Profiles during Tour de France 2007, and stated that expected trends over a three week race were not seen in the Texan’s data.

"What we know from our research is that during periods of hard activity, like in the Tour de France, we normally see a drop in these blood values. We don't see this with Armstrong," he told DR Sport.

He elaborated on this when speaking to Cyclingnews. “His blood profile contradicts what we see and what we know from international studies during the last few decades,” he said in a phone interview. “His blood values are not acting as we would expect, so that is highly unusual.” (see sidebar)

Mørkeberg has just finished a Ph. D. dissertation entitled Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples, and is working on a method to trace this method of doping.

His aforementioned Tour de France study catalogued seven riders in the 2007 race, revealing lower hemoglobin and lower hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells in whole blood) on day 19 when compared to their pre-Tour reading. On average hemoglobin dropped 11.5% and hematocrit fell by 12.1%, keeping in line with physiological expectations.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

Armstrong's Bio Passport Critic Speaks

AS: The other thing you find strange is the reticulocyte count, that it's too low, and that's indicating that he's not producing his own red blood cells?

JM: If you look at his values during the year up to the Tour, the reticulocyte values are pretty much what you would expect, around 1%. There are analytical variations and biological variations to that parameter as for any other parameter. Then at the beginning of the Tour, it's half, .5%, which is producing half the red blood cells that you would expect. The reason why you get a decrease in your reticulocyte values is when you have an increased amount of hemoglobin. Your body does not have to produce as much as usual.
http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks

Armstrong's values at the 2009 Tour de France:

7/2, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 42.8 Hb 14.3

7/10 3 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 41.3 Hb 14

7/11, 2 days before the 1st rest day
Hct 40.7 Hb 13.7

7/14, the day after 1st rest day
Hct 43.1 Hb 14.4

7/20, the 2nd rest day
Hct 41.7 Hb 14

7/25, one day before the last day of the race
Hct 43 Hb 14.5

Giro 2009:

5/7, 2 days before the start of the race
Hct 43.5 Hb 14.8

5/18
Hct 40 Hb 13.6

5/31, the last day of the race
Hct 38.2 Hb 13

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

Rasmus Damsgaard, who defended LA in the cyclingnews article linked above, was on Astana's payroll. Here's what he had to say when he wasn't being payed to lie.

Rasmussen did have a blood transfusion during the Tour or followed an EPO cure just before the Tour. Damsgaard says the increase of 3.6% in his hematocrit value and 1,1 gram per deciliter for his hemoglobin value is 'suspect', 'physiologically impossible' and scientifically impossible to explain in another way than that Rasmussen used doping.
When the [hemoglobin] number rises during a hard race like the Tour de France it indicates that one has received a blood transfusion,” Rasmus Damsgaard explains.

“We conclude that a rise in hemoglobin by itself ought to constitute the basis for the possibility of a penalty.”
Michael Ashenden agrees.

In a pre-Tour blood screen from June 29, two days before the 2006 race began, Landis had a hematocrit level of 44.8 percent and hemoglobin level of 15.5. On July 11, 10 stages into the Tour, his hematocrit had increased to 48.2 and his hemoglobin to 16.1.

This caught the attention of Michael Ashenden, project coordinator for an Australian research consortium called Science and Industry Against Blood Doping, because the body's concentration of red blood cells naturally decreases during an exhausting competition such as the Tour de France.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.
USADA: "Lance Armstrongs's doping is further evidenced by the data from blood collections obtained by the UCI from Lance Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This data is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."
 
#40 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

http://www.bigpondsport.com/runner-blames-rain-for-drugs-positive/tabid/91/newsid/93687/default.aspx

Runner blames rain for drugs positive

A French runner has blamed contaminated rain water after she tested positive for EPO following a half-marathon.

Distance runner Fatima Yvelain, a four-time national champion in the 5000m, claimed heavy rainfall on the day of the race had caused water streaming over the course to become contaminated with unidentified medical waste, at an unspecified location on the course.

Yvelain claimed that the rain water - coincidentally now laced with a prohibited substance that is particularly beneficial to distance athletes - splashed on to her shorts. Her urine then became contaminated when she provided a sample at a doping test after the race.

The French Athletics Federation listened to Yvelain's explanation and promptly rejected it, banning her from the sport for two years.
 
#41 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

http://www.bigpondsport.com/runner-blames-rain-for-drugs-positive/tabid/91/newsid/93687/default.aspx

Runner blames rain for drugs positive

A French runner has blamed contaminated rain water after she tested positive for EPO following a half-marathon.

Distance runner Fatima Yvelain, a four-time national champion in the 5000m, claimed heavy rainfall on the day of the race had caused water streaming over the course to become contaminated with unidentified medical waste, at an unspecified location on the course.

Yvelain claimed that the rain water - coincidentally now laced with a prohibited substance that is particularly beneficial to distance athletes - splashed on to her shorts. Her urine then became contaminated when she provided a sample at a doping test after the race.

The French Athletics Federation listened to Yvelain's explanation and promptly rejected it, banning her from the sport for two years.
I wonder if there is an unwritten rule amongst athletes that you have to come up with the most ludicrous reason for the positive. There might even be an award for the most brilliant excuse.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

I don't understand what the point in all of this is, other than those seeking the press. So many cyclists have been accused of being dopers, including ALL of Armstrong's rivals, both historically and during his own reign. If the French and Spanish think that doing everything possible to hurt his reputation is going to give more glory to their own more documented dopers, then they are kidding themselves.

It's been so many years, unless he actually says that he was doping (and it's clear by now that IF he was illegally doping, then he's not going to admit it) they are not going to be able to sanction him or strip him of anything. And if they did, which suspected doper would they give credit to? Another Óscar Pereiro situation where another almost certain doper (but non-American) was considered the winner? It's not like Armstrong took different tests. If he passed and is still said to be a doper, then so is everyone else by the same criteria.

So I fully buy that much of this has to do with getting press and staying relevant for the agencies and nothing but pettiness from European "fans" and his team members who got caught doping.
 
#43 ·
Re: Why doesn't Usain Bolt get the Lance Armstrong treatment from the public?

I don't understand what the point in all of this is, other than those seeking the press. So many cyclists have been accused of being dopers, including ALL of Armstrong's rivals, both historically and during his own reign. If the French and Spanish think that doing everything possible to hurt his reputation is going to give more glory to their own more documented dopers, then they are kidding themselves.

It's been so many years, unless he actually says that he was doping (and it's clear by now that IF he was illegally doping, then he's not going to admit it) they are not going to be able to sanction him or strip him of anything. And if they did, which suspected doper would they give credit to? Another Óscar Pereiro situation where another almost certain doper (but non-American) was considered the winner? It's not like Armstrong took different tests. If he passed and is still said to be a doper, then so is everyone else by the same criteria.

So I fully buy that much of this has to do with getting press and staying relevant for the agencies and nothing but pettiness from European "fans" and his team members who got caught doping.
Frankie Andreu never got caught doping, neither did Jonathan Vaughters. Hell, even Motorola teammate Stephen Swart admitted, but he never tested positive either.
Also, according to USADA, they have numerous witnesses, whose names are easy to guess. Danielson, Vandevelde, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Hincapie, I'm cerianly missing a few. All never tested positive.

I think it is safe to say that UCI's track record of catching dopers is very poor. Mostly, riders get suspended after a police operation linked them to a doping ring.

Finally, does it matter who gets the titles? Armstrong can keep them (with a big *), they can be made vacant or, my favourite, they can be awarded to doctor Ferrari.
 
#49 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-accepts-lifetime-ban-loss-of-tour-de-france-titles

Chooses not to go through with arbitration

Lance Armstrong has opted not to fight the charges of doping and conspiracy leveled against him by the United States Anti-Doping Agency. Armstrong leaves his former team manager Johan Bruyneel, team doctor Pedro Celaya and trainer Jose Pepe Marti to contest charges of doping practices and conspiracy to cover them up on their own.

Armstrong's trainer Michele Ferrari and doctor Luis del Moral have already been given lifetime bans in the same case.

USADA's case dates back to 1998, stripping Armstrong of all seven Tour de France victories as well as victories in the Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré and Tour de Suisse.

The agency charged that Armstrong not only used EPO, Coriticosteriods, Testosterone, Human Growth Hormone and blood transfusions, but also masked the use of these performance enhancing drugs and methods with saline and plasma infusions. Additionally, it alleged Armstrong, during his time with the US Postal Service and Discovery Channel, encouraged and facilitating doping by his teammates.

The charges from the 1998-2005 period stem from witness testimony from "numerous riders, team personnel and others" who either observed Armstrong doping, had him admit to doping directly to them, or were encouraged to use or received assistance in doping by Armstrong.

Additionally, USADA is reported to have acquired data from 38 of Armstrong's blood samples from his comeback years, which it alleges demonstrates manipulation by blood doping, as well as 2001 Tour de Suisse doping control data that indicated EPO use.

The UCI has objected to the agency going forward with these charges, insisting that it should be the body to have results management authority over any doping cases.

Armstrong's attorneys objected to USADA's proceedings, taking the case to a Texas district court in an attempt to block it from moving forward. They called the proceedings a violation of Armstrong's Constitutional right to due process, argued that the arbitration system could not provide a fair decision and that the lack of information provided regarding witness identity and testimony was a violation of USADA's own rules.

Judge Sam Sparks dismissed the case, finding that the arbitration system set up specifically for sports doping cases was sufficient to provide a fair hearing, and that USADA's rules provide for ample time for discovery of evidence prior to the hearing.

Armstrong then faced the August 23 deadline to inform USADA if he would take the case to arbitration or accept the ban.
 
#50 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Quote from NYT:

“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough,’ ” Armstrong said in a statement.

“The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today — finished with this nonsense.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/s...-7-tour-de-france-titles.html?smid=fb-nytimes

Sounds like his decision was made because he was sick of the whole thing rather than him admitting to doping.

10 years, though, is a ridiculous amount of time to investigate a case and formally bring charges, even for normal litigation standards. Maybe it's more complex in doping cases, I don't know.
 
#59 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Quote from NYT:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/s...-7-tour-de-france-titles.html?smid=fb-nytimes

Sounds like his decision was made because he was sick of the whole thing rather than him admitting to doping.

10 years, though, is a ridiculous amount of time to investigate a case and formally bring charges, even for normal litigation standards. Maybe it's more complex in doping cases, I don't know.
I'd say that he's realized that he's lost the case and that he's trying to save face with his fans and the general public. If he lost it in a trial with all the witnesses talking and the evidence piling up, he'd have a harder time defending himself in the media.
 
#51 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Ex-Teammate: I saw Lance Armstrong use EPO

A former teammate of perhaps the world's greatest cyclist, Lance Armstrong, says he used banned performance-enhancing substances with Armstrong to cheat in pro races, including the Tour de France, the sport's ultimate event.

For the first time, former Armstrong teammate Tyler Hamilton reveals details to Scott Pelley never heard in public before of how and when he and some of the former members of the U.S. Postal Service team led by Armstrong used banned substances, including EPO and testosterone, to gain an advantage in races that Armstrong won.

Armstrong on doping claims: Never a failed test

Hamilton's interview is part of a six-month investigation by "60 Minutes" into doping on the cycling circuit and whether Armstrong has used banned substances - which he has steadfastly denied - a matter now under federal investigation.

The Pelley team's report will be broadcast on "60 Minutes" Sunday, May 22 at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Hamilton, one of Armstrong's closest teammates and a champion cyclist in his own right, has previously denied using banned substances. He came forward to reveal secrets he thought he would harbor for years after he was subpoenaed by the grand jury in the federal investigation and forced to testify. "[Armstrong] took what we all took...the majority of the peloton," Hamilton says, referring to the tight group of bicycles and their riders in a race. "There was EPO...testosterone...a blood transfusion," he tells Pelley.

Hamilton says Armstrong used EPO, a drug that boosted endurance by increasing the amount of red blood cells in his body, to win the 1999 Tour de France, the race he won an astonishing seven times. "I saw [EPO] in his refrigerator...I saw him inject it more than one time like we all did, like I did many, many times."

Another former Armstrong teammate, also a witness in the federal investigation, is Frankie Andreu. He tells Pelley he took banned substances because lesser riders he believed were doping passed him by. "Training alone wasn't doing it and I think that's how...many of the other riders during that era felt, I mean, you kind of didn't have a choice," says Andreu.

The bedrock of Armstrong's denials over the years has been his claim to have never failed one of the hundreds of drug tests he has taken. Hamilton says Armstrong told him he did fail a test in 2001 given during the Tour de Swiss, an important event right before the Tour de France.

That allegation is under investigation by federal authorities.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-20064406-10391709.html

Imo, Hamilton has to be telling some sort of truth if he was willing to also throw his own career into the trash.
 
#52 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Not so brave now, are we, Lance?

USADA confirms he will be stripped of his seven Tour de France titles and receive a life-long sentence. However, I predict a fight with UCI, I suspect this isn't over yet...

Always good to see dopers caught.
 
#58 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

not contesting the charge means avoiding jail for perjury further down the line, right?

and I assume the titles will be left blank rather than handed to convicted dopers like ullrich and basso?
He will lose his 7 TDF titles but as Har-Tru said there will be a fight with the UCI. Not sure if they will be awarded to anyone especially during Armstrong's time hardly any were clean.
 
#56 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

I will always love cycling, but I never like how the TdF takes ten years to be confirmed. Surely there is a way to do it ASAP after the tour has concluded.
Well no, there isn't. Technology in drugs and masking agents is always changing, and drug testers are constantly playing catch up.
 
#66 ·
Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Will anyone ever take the sport of cycling seriously now.
Nothing has changed between yesterday and today. Why would this make a difference?

The only thing that sets cycling apart from other sports like tennis is that cycling actually fights doping.
 
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