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Why players don't go to net more often?

4K views 46 replies 26 participants last post by  zebedee 
#1 ·
I allready asked that today but mods deleted my post for some reason.
 
#5 ·
Players pass better today. Edberg, Sampras, McEnroe and Laver would be journey men in today's class.
 
#7 ·
people do go to the net when the timing is right occasionally on tour still, ala Federer / Raonic, etc.

but like the other posters have pointed out the technology and court speed makes trying to play a S/V game very difficult. the opponent just has so much time nowadays to set up the right angle to shoot the ball past you, it makes it challenging
 
#8 ·
Despite the slow surfaces & technology aspect, the true reason is because they aren't practising coming in.. Just like it is a habit for some players to stand 5 miles behind the baseline or hit as many balls using their forehand, these are traits that develop on the practice courts. If you go watch practice sessions and practice matches of your favorite players, they barely come in unless it is to put away a short ball or they get drawn in from a drop shot of course.. Then on top of that, coaches and young players are continuing this trend of staying at the baseline anyways.

Yes the surface speeds, the changes in the balls and technology have had to some extent forced players to stay at the baseline more often, but there are still many players who do come in quite a bit and are ranked pretty high, but the problem is none of them are real superstars. So it is still foreseeable that if we had a truly elite player who does come into the net often, he could be ranked at the top of the men's game. So until some new talent appears that does S&V or at least come to the net often and then on top of that become a GS champion and/or top player, no young kids or coaches will be influenced to adopt such a style.
 
#13 ·
Despite the slow surfaces & technology aspect, the true reason is because they aren't practising coming in.. Just like it is a habit for some players to stand 5 miles behind the baseline or hit as many balls using their forehand, these are traits that develop on the practice courts. If you go watch practice sessions and practice matches of your favorite players, they barely come in unless it is to put away a short ball or they get drawn in from a drop shot of course.. Then on top of that, coaches and young players are continuing this trend of staying at the baseline anyways.

Yes the surface speeds, the changes in the balls and technology have had to some extent forced players to stay at the baseline more often, but there are still many players who do come in quite a bit and are ranked pretty high, but the problem is none of them are real superstars. So it is still foreseeable that if we had a truly elite player who does come into the net often, he could be ranked at the top of the men's game. So until some new talent appears that does S&V or at least come to the net often and then on top of that become a GS champion and/or top player, no young kids or coaches will be influenced to adopt such a style.



I agree with this. Good post.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Raonic and Isner (they are attacking a net after good shot) do that and I like them because they are smart. Federer, too. They are S&V players and they are ranked high.
Mate Pavic of Croatia plays S&V, he had away biggiest wins this summer out of his generation (2 top 40 wins). We will see what will be with him.

I know all about technology and slow courts but like I said in "Cilic's case", that's the problem.
 
#10 ·
Raonic and Isner (they are attacking a net after good shot) do that and I like them because they are smart. Federer, too. They are S&V players and they are ranked high.
Mate Pavic of Croatia plays S@V, he had away biggiest wins this summer out of his generation (2 top 40 wins). We will see what will be with him.

I know all about technology and slow court but like I said in "Cilic's case", that's the problem.
No way is Fed "S&V player" just because he comes to the net time to time, he doesn't play like Llodra or Stepanek. Raonic and Isner are two best servers at the moment on the whole tour, Cilic's serve is no where near that.
 
#16 ·
you just can't win the point by the first volley because of slow surfaces and you just get passed with the opponent's second shot.

That's why
 
#17 ·
nothing about 'training' that is false logic, despite the overall pro game turning into an entirely baseline battle, tennis players are still trained just as much as ever on volleying

many can do it well but it will not be as effective as it once was no matter what. I mean any player in the top 100 you'll witness do some great vollies from time to time, not using the tactic frequently does not reflect their ability

going to the net is suicide in today's game, when the last time you saw that work against some with good passing shots like Nadal, 5 years ago?
 
#19 ·
they're not training it less. They're using it less. And they're not using it less Because their tactics is by default baseline tennis...their tactics is by default baseline tennis Because they can't be successful going at the net too often.

It's just the semi amateur tennis of the 80s and 90s is now transformed into real pro tennis and with the slow surfaces you'd get ripped at the net.

A guy super talented at the net like Llodra is able to keep a max top 25-30 level with his style, which is not the way it is because he thinks it's more effective, rather because his shots consistency from the baseline is mediocre to say the least.
 
#24 ·
nothing about 'training' that is false logic, despite the overall pro game turning into an entirely baseline battle, tennis players are still trained just as much as ever on volleying

many can do it well but it will not be as effective as it once was no matter what. I mean any player in the top 100 you'll witness do some great vollies from time to time, not using the tactic frequently does not reflect their ability

going to the net is suicide in today's game, when the last time you saw that work against some with good passing shots like Nadal, 5 years ago?
It IS indeed a combination of lack of skill and not training it. Federer's net skills won him the Wimbledon final this year, he came in more than any final he had ever played prior IIRC..

Regardless, it is truly a lack of skill. Players do not know when to cover the line or when to cover the cross court shot. They are indeed a sitting duck, the courts aren't slow, they are... On top of that, as I mentioned, we do not have an elite player that uses this method, so how can one insinuate that a player cannot get to the top with such a style...that is unless you base your ideology using the careers of Llodra and Stepanek for example. They aren't elite players, but both have had very good careers on the singles tour. Imagine if they had the natural talent of like a Federer, or physique/mental strength of Djokovic/Nadal. You really think that can't make it to the top of the game?

Players get passed because they don't know the proper way to play at the net. Just compare the great S&V players to now. They knew where to cover. Sometimes you have to play the percentages, sometimes you have to take a risk, sometimes you're a sitting duck and have to guess, it all depends and a good net player uses these different approaches. At the same time, while there are good volleyers that don't come in that often, majority of the players don't have the volleys of great net players..they just know how to cut off a floating reply. Once the ball comes back with heat, not too many can deal with it properly.

If you want a little comparison, look at Novak's success last year mainly against Rafa. Djokovic was oftentimes literally standing and waiting for Rafa to hit the ball back crosscourt and all he needed to do was stick his racket out for an easy volley. Then looking at Federer in his prime years against Rafa, he was so stubborn about that very same thing. He would cover the down the line shot time and time allowing Rafa to pass cross court pretty easily.

Just having good volleys is only a very small aspect towards being a great net player. Look at Ivanisevic, he had very mediocre volleys, regardless of whether you think how much surfaces/technology have changed, he was still a top player. Hitting the right serve, knowing where to move, being confident with the play and take the right percentages are much more important factors in being a great net player that players these days don't have.
 
#25 ·
they're not training it less. They're using it less. And they're not using it less Because their tactics is by default baseline tennis...their tactics is by default baseline tennis Because they can't be successful going at the net too often.
This.

There are days--weeks even--dedicated to volleys at various clinics and camps here, you just won't see it incorporated in the game as much because it's no longer the most proven tactic in tennis.

People always talk about racquet technology and surface changes, but they forget about the guys holding the racquet and the modernization of the game. For all anyone cay say about racquet technology speeding up, remember how athletically sharp these guys have to be to cope with that. Moreover, and more importantly, the mechanics of a stroke aren't what they are even some decades ago.

The predominant ball from the baseline is no longer a flat one, the type easiest for an astute volleyer to redirect. Topspin has really become a staple in the game, meaning not only the speed, but the weight of today's average shots has increased. Volleys are made more difficult to accomplish because of how well guys can arch shots at such speeds and trajectories that wren't as much of an issue before.

Just remember even Sampras' comments about Hewitt being a victim of his time. The greatest serve and volleyer of his time said Lleyton had the game to largely break that style of tennis, but was unfortunate to come on to the scene when the dynamics of the game had changed.

It's not a matter of lack of practice making for poor results, it's a matter of (mostly) poor results making for a lack of implementation.
 
#20 ·
Llodra is not necessarily better at the net than most guys. He really has no choice but to rush forward; he's just better in doubles tennis.

I only see effective serve, volley & dropshots from someone like Janowicz because he's agile, taller & very fast.

If you force a very short or overweight slow guy to net, he'll need luck to win some tourneys. If they have foolish techniques from the baseline and they aren't very talented and flexible at net, they'll lose every major tourney.
 
#21 ·
Courts being slow is no excuse ! I play on courts slow as ass and I can still hit un returnable volley,s if I can do it, hell Volleying should be a piece of cake for these guys ! Far too many baseliners in modern Tennis , however Llodra is a sitting duck half the time as his approach play Is shit !
 
#27 ·
surprisingly enough, suicidal tactics don't really pay off.

Personally I think slow courts and improved racquet technology prevent this tactic, because it just doesn't work.
 
#28 · (Edited)
3 things

1. slower courts-mostly HC-indoor,outdoors and grass, no carpet - you need better volley for winner shot than 10-15years ago and so on

2.racquet technology-some of those passing shots are so fast-strong - it is almost impossible to take control of such shot, when your opponents are blasting ,,bombs,, on you or left-right from you - also

3. training-confidence- call it how you want, simply most guys are not training enough volleying and they are not confident enough to do it, i mean for example you play QF of Master 1000 you need to make SF-you are top 30 guy, would you try go to the net when you are not used to it and are not sure what to do on the net? No you will stay on the baseline and either wait for error or good position to hit winner

Howewer i believe going to the net more often would be great choice, i think most players when goes to the net can hit good volley, in top 50 for example and it would be great to shorten rallies and change rhytm and make you more unpredictable - i am not saying about SV style - i think this is history, but more volleying would be great for players

Also one thing i don´t understand is why basically nobody is using drop shots more often- in this era with everoyne behind the baseline and expecting another shot far to corner and stay behind baseline drop shots are great choice, i mean if 2m+ tall guy like Janowicz can do it why other guys are not using it more frequently - i think similar case to volleys - they are not training it and are not confident enough to do it when it matters like facing BP or having BP and so on. I mean you don´t need to hit drop shot winner and play it perfectly it can ,,be lazy,, drop shot and still you can win point 80% of the time when you do it at good time.

Similarly with volleys you don´t need to have winning volley after great volley, just take your opponent outwide and cover the net and so on.
 
#30 ·
Also one thing i don´t understand is why basically nobody is using drop shots more often- in this era with everoyne behind the baseline and expecting another shot far to corner and stay behind baseline drop shots are great choice, i mean if 2m+ tall guy like Janowicz can do it why other guys are not using it more frequently - i think similar case to volleys - they are not training it and are not confident enough to do it when it matters like facing BP or having BP and so on. I mean you don´t need to hit drop shot winner and play it perfectly it can ,,be lazy,, drop shot and still you can win point 80% of the time when you do it at good time.
Dolgopolov use (or used) them a lot, and he's good at it, but in the end he couldn't bother even Troicki with that - check their last match (RG 2011), Viktor dropped only a set. Top guys probably wouldn't even lose a set.
 
#29 ·
Drop shot needs to be 80% perfect to have a winning possibility, all the rest is an invitation for the opponent.

The only way to raise the number of volleys is to play S&V and chip and charge actually, as the rest of the time you -

either hit winners following your good serve
either you are defending behind your return.

Players still do some 10-20 volleys in a 3 setter in average, so everything above this is either S&V or C&C.

Both are suicidal strategies and could be used once in a while to surprise the opponent.
 
#31 ·
About drop shots - don´t think they must be perfectly played, how i mentioned even ,,lazy drop shot,, could win you point if you use it wisely at right moment - of course i am not saying players should drop shot now every point, but my point was if someone try drop shot 4x in match, why not 10x in match and at right time, in 20+ rally when opponent is far behind baseline in corner - just not perfect drop shot in other corner behind the net should be enough for forced error or easy lob, passing shot when the other player can give it back to your side of the net - that´s my point about drop shots - win few points more relatively easily and change the rhytm

About volleys - agree with your numbers that players are going to the net say 15x in 3 setter, but part of this is after drop shot, part of this is maybe after let cord in rally, i agree that SV style or chip-charge should be managed just few times - but after great slice serve outwide why not go the net or after great return to the corner when you can see your opponent won´t be able to get back decent groundstroke why not go the net. Just like with drop shots, even volley could be ,,lazy,, not perfectly done but timing is key, if you know when to go to the net this is the key and i really doń t understand why nobody can use this from players, to see new opportunities with either volleys or drop shots
 
#39 ·
The only difference in practicing volleys is not during the training sessions, but during the matches.

The time spent on volleys in training in the 80s is the same as today for the pros, simply because volleys still do exist and a player would hit a hundred of them in any tournament (considering he plays enough matches), so they still work the volleys and they do play them relatively well too.

They don't do it as often during matches as before, as S&V and chip and charge tactics are not winning tactics nowadays.

And a Nadal - Edberg match would end in no more than 2-3 games for Edberg overall, that's pretty sure.

Just as a match between me and Rod Laver at his best, despite i'm an amateur and he's an all time legend.

Just as Florence Griffith-Joyner would be faster at 100m in 1988 than the record holder man in 1912.

The only guys in tennis who are really practicing the volleying tactics almost as in the 80s-90s are Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot. And they won't get anywhere further than they have ever been. And these guys are just great at the net, not less than Edberg or any other specialist.
 
#40 ·
The only difference in practicing volleys is not during the training sessions, but during the matches.

The time spent on volleys in training in the 80s is the same as today for the pros, simply because volleys still do exist and a player would hit a hundred of them in any tournament (considering he plays enough matches), so they still work the volleys and they do play them relatively well too.

They don't do it as often during matches as before, as S&V and chip and charge tactics are not winning tactics nowadays.

And a Nadal - Edberg match would end in no more than 2-3 games for Edberg overall, that's pretty sure.

Just as a match between me and Rod Laver at his best, despite i'm an amateur and he's an all time legend.

Just as Florence Griffith-Joyner would be faster at 100m in 1988 than the record holder man in 1912.

The only guys in tennis who are really practicing the volleying tactics almost as in the 80s-90s are Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot. And they won't get anywhere further than they have ever been. And these guys are just great at the net, not less than Edberg or any other specialist.
...Your comparison between Edberg and Nadal are based on his stats when he used to play with the technology and courts available to him (not to mention what used to be considered standard for physical requirements back then) compared to what Rafa has now.. That is completely unfair and almost like apples and oranges.

So are you saying Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot are as good as superstars like Sampras, Becker, Edberg, etc? People use these players as examples as to why net players won't be successful today, but it is in fact quite the opposite. Llodra and Stepanek don't have Rafa's mental strength, Novak's physical traits, Federer's talent, Murray's ability to read game, etc, yet Llodra became #21 in the world and Stepanek was a top 10 player... Now if they were real superstars and had some fantastic attribute like the current top 4 have, you really think they can't make it to the top of the game? I sincerely doubt that. I mean we are in the complete opposite of how things used to be when people questioned how a baseliner could win Wimbledon for example.

Look at Tsonga. Arguably he isn't really a net player, but he certainly shows how effective it can be. Why doesn't he succeed? His mental strength is nowhere near the top 4s and he has a rather erratic forehand volley.

E: Might be cliche or sound like a broken record, but I sincerely do not think there is anyone who has some sense or logic believes that a prime Sampras couldn't pick up some titles with the conditions in today's game. As successful as he was in the 90s? Maybe not, but being able to pick up slam titles, that is definite. I mean seriously, just watch how he came into the net compared to how players these days do. The players these days are sitting ducks and have no clue compared to Sampras on how to position themselves, which is heavily the reason why they get passed.
 
#41 ·
This is just not true mate, i completely disagree on most.

Llodra is equal or better than Sampras at volleying, he doesn't have that good of a serve and baseline game, but at the net, approaching, positioning, execution - all good enough.

Llodra would be a superstar in the 80s and he has all the attributes that made the guys you mention superstars, but he doesn't have the old racquets and courts, that's his only problem.
 
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