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Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

3K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  Lee 
#1 ·
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#2 ·
No surprise. It's easier to get a gun that a porn magazine in some parts of the U.S. And all the heatd political enviroment :help:
 
#12 ·
Conservative press? Now that is comedy. It's the information age. His youtube and facebook among other things have all been copied and widely distributed. All of his fellow students and teachers identified him as ranting leftist. He posted pictures of Marx, Mao and Cesar Chavez all over his site.

He rants about the "racist" tea party and supports Obama. So you hold Obama responsible as people seem to want to do Palin if someone who calls himself her supporter does something stupid.

But let the revisionism begin.
Where are your sources? I live in Arizona and local stations had dedicated whole afternoon, preempting normal programmings to report the news and I can assure everyone here none of what you said here were mentioned.

The gunman is a very disturbed person. The community college he attained had demanded in September, 2010 that he needed to get a clean bill of mental health before he could return but he then quit in October. He went on to buy the murder weapon in November thanks to the very easy gun law here.

The only thing I am very certain is if it is more difficult for individuals to obtain semi-automatic guns like the Glock he used, we are not likely to have the massacre here. But this is Arizona where a parent felt the need to carry a gun to a middle school open house night with a gun holstered is his waist without any cover where little children running around.

Also, what the Pima county sheriff said is right about the political climate here although this may not have anything to do with the gunman. When people were in anger, in rage, in distrust, etc. Violence resulted.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I don't know which interview you saw. I'm sure he's done a bunch. In the one I saw Megyn Kelley pretty much took him to town for politicizing this:



The sheriff decries the heated political rhetoric, but when pressed admits that he has no evidence to suggest that the gunman was influenced by it, even admitting that it's only his speculative opinion. Then he goes off whining about how Republicans "blocked" Democrats from "improving" this country (again, his opinion). The sheriff, like everyone else, needs to stick to what we know. The gunman was almost certainly disturbed and for reasons that are unclear at this point targeted this woman. We don't know if his political ideology had anything to do with it, and even if it did it's not even clear what his political ideology was.

We certainly can (and should) debate that, but the sheriff should recognize that he is going to be viewed as an authority on this crime and what the gunman's motivations are. Unless he has evidence that the heated rhetoric and the gunman's political ideology had anything to do with this incident then he shouldn't be injecting his personal opinion because the public is going to interpret it as fact due to his position. All he's done is to inflame the political tensions.
So are you saying there is no heated political rhetoric right now in the United States? Man, I wish I had your sense of what balanced, political debate is... In the last year a guy flew a plane into an IRS building, a mentally deranged guy takes hostages at the Discovery Channel, and now a member of Congress is shot - threats against members of Congress and the President are at an all-time high (according to the Secret Service, and up 300% since the Bush years), and millions tune in to watch Glenn Beck on a daily basis.

The sheriff has inflamed political tensions? Please - the only idiots who are turning his statement into another part of an ongoing political war are those who post at redstate.com and dailykos.com anyways, and who would find 1,000 ways of doing so with or without his statements. He has a right to his opinion, just like the Tea Party can issue a statement saying we should pray for Giffords even if she is a "liberal".

And I'm sorry but Dupnik isn't completely wrong. There IS plenty of heated rhetoric and political activism in Arizona. My parents live in Phoenix and I spend a lot of time there. In fact, a lot of the unfortunate rhetoric (and actions) come from another sheriff in the state - Joe Arpaio - whose actions are far, far more divisive than anything Dupnik said yesterday, and the current governor. The fact Fox News is all over this and trying to get him to retract what he's saying is obvious - they would go out of business if politics ever moved back to civil debate (as would MSNBC).

And to anyone on these boards trying to fix a political label to the killer based on what one youtube video says or what one of his former classmates said - get real. He wasn't liberal, leftist, marxist, conversative, facist, or a right-winger - he was simply a nutcase with so many ramblings no political framework could ever claim him.
 
#30 · (Edited)
And I'm sorry but Dupnik isn't completely wrong. There IS plenty of heated rhetoric and political activism in Arizona. My parents live in Phoenix and I spend a lot of time there. In fact, a lot of the unfortunate rhetoric (and actions) come from another sheriff in the state - Joe Arpaio - whose actions are far, far more divisive than anything Dupnik said yesterday, and the current governor. The fact Fox News is all over this and trying to get him to retract what he's saying is obvious - they would go out of business if politics ever moved back to civil debate (as would MSNBC).
I have the feeling that Dupnik was pointing to Joe Arpaio when he used the word 'bigotry' :p

@Chip_s_m: I believe we are not really differ in our opinions. It's just we have a slightly different view on how Dupnik conduct himself in the press conferences. But since you don't live in Phoenix and surrounding area under the power of Maricopa county sheriff Joe Arpaio, and under the state representatives in Arizona, you will never understand why me and ibreak4coffee tend to overlook the unprofessionalism of sheriff Dupnik conduct himself. I have been under the very unprofessionalism of Joe Arpaio for the last 9 years and he gets to keep voting back to office anyway............ mainly by the main stream Republicans and Sarah Palin supporters. :shrug:
 
#7 ·
Conservative press? Now that is comedy. It's the information age. His youtube and facebook among other things have all been copied and widely distributed. All of his fellow students and teachers identified him as ranting leftist. He posted pictures of Marx, Mao and Cesar Chavez all over his site.

He rants about the "racist" tea party and supports Obama. So you hold Obama responsible as people seem to want to do Palin if someone who calls himself her supporter does something stupid.

But let the revisionism begin.
 
#8 ·
What is your source for that information?

I've looked at several news sites and have not found it.

On My Space he listed books and it contains both the communist manefesto and mein kampf. Also George Orwell and Huxley. On his last youtube video he spoke of not trusting the current government, reading the constitution, and creating his own currency. It's not very logical and he appears to have a mental illness.

Source for where I watched the videos is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html
 
#10 ·
I have not seen an authentic Facebook page for the shooter, just the fake ones that suddenly popped yesterday after the shooting with pictures of Obama and Clinton. (If any one has a link, please post it).

His myspace page was taken down pretty quickly as well, and I have not seen a screenshot of that either, just descriptions of the alleged content including a list of his favorite books ranging from 1984, Brave New World, Gulliver's Travels, The Republic, Mein Kampf, and The Communist Manifesto, and a few photos purported to be from there.

The only thing that is still on the internet intact is his youtube account (http://www.youtube.com/classitup10) with nearly incoherent ramblings about currency, grammar, fraud commited by his community college, and the incorrect year on the calendar. I have seen absolutely NOTHING from a reliable source that this guy had any political alliance to a party or side whatsoever, just ridiculous finger pointing from both sides. He seems to be just another in a long line of mentally deranged American white males who gets a gun to express himself, just when I thought we were running out of those and had to find something else to worry about.

The Sarah Palin thing is old news. It was brought up yesterday as a knee jerk reaction to the shock and grief that people felt, their search for answers in the time before this guy was identified. Palin was brought to task for that image last March when she first posted it, she defended it and left it up. Yesterday, she took it off her website (but left it on her facebook page). It is time to move on from that topic, Palin is NOT a viable part of this discussion any longer (start another topic about violent rhetoric separate from this event, she can be the center of that).

While the discourse in this country has become increasingly vitriolic and even violent (with Sharron Angle's 'second amendment solutions' comment at the top of the list), I sincerely doubt it had any effect on the actions of this particular individual.
 
#11 ·
While the discourse in this country has become increasingly vitriolic and even violent (with Sharron Angle's 'second amendment solutions' comment at the top of the list), I sincerely doubt it had any effect on the actions of this particular individual.
I don't know what affected this young man. I can't discount the rampant depictions of violence in this country as a cause though.

As unfortunate as I find Ms. Palin and her rhetoric, I doubt that was a direct cause. The shooter didn't seem affiliated with anyone in particular. His writing on You Tube just seems sad, lonely, suspicious and dearranged.

If this does serve to make public figures (of all sided) calm down a bit in their lurid speech, I for one would be thrilled. It's gotten to be too much. There was this bit that was very disturbing:

Kelly held an event on June 12th urging supporters to "Get on Target for Victory in November/Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office/Shoot a fully automatic M15 with Jesse Kelly."

Here's how the Arizona Daily Star described the event at the time:

Jesse Kelly, meanwhile, doesn't seem to be bothered in the least by the Sarah Palin controversy earlier this year, when she released a list of targeted races in crosshairs, urging followers to "reload" and "aim" for Democrats. Critics said she was inciting violence.

He seems to be embracing his fellow tea partier's idea. Kelly's campaign event website has a stern-looking photo of the former Marine in military garb holding his weapon. It includes the headline: "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."
I doubt that had anything to do with the shooting, but nevertheless, it's disturbing.
 
#16 ·
Which woman are you referring to? Giffords is not dead, but 6 other people are.
 
#19 ·
That Sheriff was already well-known for his partisan politics before the shooting. The people making him out to be some kind of voice of truth are just plain idiots. The guy needs to be focused on how this happened in his jurisdiction and obtaining all facts about any other people being involved. He doesn't need to be airing his politics on news shows. He's Nifong with a badge.
 
#21 ·
I might have believed that if it wasn't coming from the right-wing nutjob that is you.
 
#23 ·
We could all do a great deal to lower the temperature of political debate by simply refusing to watch outlets that engage in political baiting and polemics. I don't watch Fox or MSNBC. CNN has so trivialized itself that it is unwatchable. Too bad because once CNN was a great source of international news reporting.

Just say no.
 
#24 ·
Which leaves what? The major network news that most people see (CBS in particular) are far more biased than CNN or Fox. There is an unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias there. Couric in particular now. The report they did on the shooting, even when it was clear that he wasn't a tea party type, was entirely about Sarah Palin being responsible. The internet is sadly the only place to get the right information.
 
#25 ·
So just to be clear, you consider CBS to be more biased than Fox News? The same network created solely to advance a point of view with almost every major presumptive Republican candidate for 2012 on their payroll?

I do agree with you that the focus in the last few days has been too heavy on Palin. But her whole relationship with the media is more complex than simply being a consistent victim of bias from the major networks. Objectively, the worst possible case scenario for Sarah Palin would be for the mainstream media to stop covering her every tweet, speech, and policy pronouncement. She feeds off it, and it fuels her popularity on the right. It also helps keep her celebrity going - which is as important to her as any political aspirations at the moment. And honestly, whether its right or wrong, the fact she openly mocks the profession of journalism and refers to everyone bar Fox News as the "lamestream" media - well, that might explain why she's not necessarily the most popular politician in the United States with the scribes.
 
#27 ·
Wow, definitely silly to debate politics or biases in a situation like this. Condolences go out to the families of the killed ones, including the 9(?) year-old girl (who had just made student council in her school class and wanted to be a politician one day), and I hope Giffords gets a warm reception if/when she returns to work.

Weird to see that the 9 year old girl was born on 9/11, BTW :eek:
 
#34 · (Edited)
This incident is a clear example why I distrust the media so much. That means everybody from Fox on up to CNN and the NYT. They're all pushing a political agenda; they are the ones who have charged up the incendiary political rhetoric. The fact that so-called trustworthy news sources have actually tried to blame Palin or the Tea Party for this Communist Manifesto-reading nutjob's behavior is one reason why this country has lost its collective mind. For them to have instantly politicized this incident, without any proof as to what his motive was, was irresponsible journalism. We need more of Jon Stewart's Rally for Sanity talk.

The guy who shot Ms. Giffords was a plain old, garden-variety lunatic looking for his fifteen minutes of fame. Sometimes I wonder if people like him would exist if the media didn't give him the infamy he sought?
 
#35 ·
I don't care if the shooter's favorite book is Horton Hears a Who (his book list seems like a young person's idea of impressive more than a real list). Palin is not unconnected, because her casually violent rhetoric permeates the entire political atmosphere, in forsaken Arizona more than most places in the US.
 
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