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Thread: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better" Reply to Thread
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02-11-2013 04:00 PM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by castle007 View Post
3rd of all time overall or on clay? When did he say that?
I think it was just before Roland-Garros 2010, the French sports newspaper "l'Equipe" had organized an "experts poll" (the experts were former players or coaches and journalists) to define the best claycourt players of the open era, and Toni indeed had said that in his opinion, Nadal was still behind Borg, and that Federer was in his opinion very underrated on clay because he had had to face Nadal.

He has said that "maybe" Fed should be number 3 ahead of Lendl and Wilander but I have his final vote and actually he didn't vote that : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 R. Federer ; 6 T. Muster ; 7 I. Nastase ; 8 G. Kuerten ; 9. G. Vilas ; 10 J.C. Ferrero.

The overall experts result was that :

1. Rafael Nadal, 163 pts ; 2. Björn Borg, 159 ; 3. Ivan Lendl, 111 ; 4. Mats Wilander, 96 ; 5. Gustavo Kuerten, 87 ; 6. Guillermo Vilas, 80 ; 7. Roger Federer, 61 ; 8. Rod Laver, 41 ; 9. Thomas Muster, 37 ; 10. Ken Rosewall et Sergi Bruguera, 28 ; 12. Nastase 24 ; 13 Courier 7 ; Orantes ; Agassi

Of course it was in 2010, then Djokovic was not yet considered.

I was also surprised that Laver was ahead of Rosewall as I thought that overall Rosewall was better on clay, but well maybe it's because of the period considered or the experts just were not that much "experts"

I also have the individual votes actually :

Mats WILANDER : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 J. Courier ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10. G. Vilas.

Bob BRETT : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 M. Wilander ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 G. Vilas ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 R. Laver ; 9 K. Rosewall ; 10 S. Bruguera.

Thierry TULASNE : 1 R. Nadal ; 2. B. Borg ; 3 M. Wilander ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10 J.C. Ferrero.

Patrick PROISY : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 I. Lendl ; 6 G. Kuerten ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10 R. Federer.

Jean-Paul LOTH : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 G. Kuerten ; 7 K. Rosewall ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 T. Muster ; 10 R. Federer.

Guillaume DURAND : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 T. Muster ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 M. Wilander ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 R. Federer ; 10 R. Laver.

Philippe BOUIN : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7. G.Vilas ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10. J. Courier

Patrice DOMINGUEZ : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 G. Vilas ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 M. Wilander ; 9 I. Nastase ; 10 S. Bruguera.

Alain DEFLASSIEUX : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 K. Rosewall ; 6 R. Laver ; 7 G. Vilas ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 M. Wilander ; 10 G. Kuerten

Toni NADAL : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 R. Federer ; 6 T. Muster ; 7 I. Nastase ; 8 G. Kuerten ; 9. G. Vilas ; 10 J.C. Ferrero.

Fabrice SANTORO : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 I. Lendl ; 6 M. Wilander ; 7 G. Kuerten ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 R. Laver ; 10. A. Agassi.

Guy FORGET : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 K. Rosewall ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 G. Kuerten ; 9 R. Federer ; 10 T. Muster.

Henri LECONTE : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 G. Vilas ; 10 R. Federer.

Mansour BAHRAMI : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 J. Courier ; 9 G. Vilas ; 10 R. Laver.

Pierre BARTHES : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 R. Laver ; 3 B. Borg ; 4 K. Rosewall ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 M. Wilander ; 8 S. Bruguera ; 9 A. Agassi ; 10 G. Vilas.

Patrice HAGELAUER : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 M. Orantes ; 4 T. Muster ; 5 I. Nastase ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 G. Kuerten ; 8 M. Wilander ; 9 I. Lendl ; 10 G. Vilas.

Sébastien GROSJEAN : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 K. Rosewall ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9. G. Kuerten ; 10 T. Muster.
02-11-2013 03:54 PM
IOFH
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by castle007 View Post
3rd of all time overall or on clay? When did he say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Old news. Toni has always quipped that he felt Bjorn was more unbeatable than Rafa. In fact, the first story about this that I can remember, Toni listed Borg, Nadal, Federer as the top 3 clay court players ever in that order. His reasoning was that Bjorn never missed in his prime whereas he felt Rafa did miss time to time.

However, as for his intentions, I'm not sure. Does he actually love Borg that much? Does he say this time to time in order to motivate Rafa to try to prove his uncle wrong? Does he say this in order to keep Rafa's head under the clouds?
I vaguely remember that quote as well, can't remember when.
02-11-2013 03:40 PM
castle007
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by IOFH View Post
While Toni is a sack of shit, I do agree with him that Federer is at least right in the group fighting for 3rd behind Borg and Nadal in terms of level of play.
3rd of all time overall or on clay? When did he say that?
02-11-2013 03:13 PM
IOFH
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKz View Post
However, as for his intentions, I'm not sure. Does he actually love Borg that much? Does he say this time to time in order to motivate Rafa to try to prove his uncle wrong? Does he say this in order to keep Rafa's head under the clouds?
I'm sure the OP can give you the answer for this.
02-11-2013 03:12 PM
IOFH
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

While Toni is a sack of shit, I do agree with him that Federer is at least right in the group fighting for 3rd behind Borg and Nadal in terms of level of play.
02-11-2013 03:00 PM
HKz
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Old news. Toni has always quipped that he felt Bjorn was more unbeatable than Rafa. In fact, the first story about this that I can remember, Toni listed Borg, Nadal, Federer as the top 3 clay court players ever in that order. His reasoning was that Bjorn never missed in his prime whereas he felt Rafa did miss time to time.

However, as for his intentions, I'm not sure. Does he actually love Borg that much? Does he say this time to time in order to motivate Rafa to try to prove his uncle wrong? Does he say this in order to keep Rafa's head under the clouds?
02-11-2013 01:16 PM
IOFH
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Did Borg ever lose when healthy? Yes? There's your answer.
02-11-2013 12:43 PM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I think that two things play a role in Toni saying this:

1. Toni has been training Rafa since the age of 4 so he has seen him evolve from a toddler tossing a ball back and forth while holding a racquet that was nearly as big as himself to the guy winning grand slam titles. On the other hand, he saw Borg on his tv for the first time when Borg was already a big player. Obviously, there's a different way of looking at both men.

2. Borg had ice in his veins. He is nicknamed Iceborg for a reason. Just looking at this demeanor on court, you simply couldn't tell whether he was losing or winning. Rafa is totally different in that regard. He doesn't really hide his emotions on court and Toni knows his nephew through and through, so he knows better than anyone when his nephew has doubts, when he is confident,...
yes for sure apart from all of our "tentatively objective" arguments, Toni's position is clearly first explained by his subjectivity.

It reminds me when people overanalyze when Nadal says that he played better in 2012 than in 2008 in his opinion, or when Fed says that he thinks he's a better player nowadays

This kind of arguments that "X said that" clearly has little value because they don't really speak of the topic when they say that, they speak of something else, more intimate.
02-11-2013 12:38 PM
Castafiore
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

I think that two things play a role in Toni saying this:
Quote:
When I saw Borg play, seemed unbeatable. On the other hand Rafel seems beatable to me.
1. Toni has been training Rafa since the age of 4 so he has seen him evolve from a toddler tossing a ball back and forth while holding a racquet that was nearly as big as himself to the guy winning grand slam titles. On the other hand, he saw Borg on his tv for the first time when Borg was already a big player. Obviously, there's a different way of looking at both men.

2. Borg had ice in his veins. He is nicknamed Iceborg for a reason. Just looking at this demeanor on court, you simply couldn't tell whether he was losing or winning. Rafa is totally different in that regard. He doesn't really hide his emotions on court and Toni knows his nephew through and through, so he knows better than anyone when his nephew has doubts, when he is confident,...
02-11-2013 12:30 PM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
Borg may have had a mild personality compared to the spoiled brat MugEnroe, but let's not forget this is the man who walked off the court before the ceremony and ditched the press conference at his last grand slam
he had been threatened to death before the match, that's the main reason
02-11-2013 11:56 AM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust View Post
GREAT ACCURATE POST! The fact is that Borg never won a hard court slam. Did Borg never play the AO?
he played it once at 18 years old, and you may not know but it was not on hardcourts in that time

Borg has played more US Open finals (4) than Nadal (2) (1 of them was on American clay though), that he didn't win it is a pure anomaly of history.
02-11-2013 11:54 AM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
One of the greatest records ever - winning % of matches played for whole career on all surfaces. Funny, but currently Nadal has better one, but it will be gone after his next loss.
also best % of matches won in slams in open era (89.8%), which he will probably keep for very long because he was in the best condition for such a record :
- very precocious
- and stopped before starting to lose

Nadal is second best for that stat at the moment (87.7), Fed 3rd (86.9).
02-11-2013 11:48 AM
GSMnadal
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

Replace Nadal with Federer and Borg with Nadal and I agree
02-11-2013 11:46 AM
duong
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

All surfaces considered, it's very clear that Borg is superior to Nadal imo

As for clay, both were so superior to the others that yes, despite better figures for Nadal, I personally don't think it's that "obvious" that Nadal is better than Borg.

They just had a different attitude towards clay and towards tennis in general : Nadal plays everything like an oger, typical of our era where people are so much concerned about records, Borg didn't put so much energy there, was more "dilettante" in a way. Often preferred playing carpet tournaments than clay ones.

Imo, both were "clay monsters", including physical monsters, and that's all.
02-11-2013 11:39 AM
eskinol
Re: Toni: "In terms of records Nadal's better than Borg but I think Borg is better"

I don't know why people are making anything much about this remark, in either direction. Uncle Toni is asked to comment on Borg. Uncle Toni goes with a piety instead of saying something controversial. How many statements do you hear from the camps of top players saying they're better than their historical competitors? And instead, how many such opportunities are foregone? Basically, it looks bad when you brag, especially when the statement is debatable either way.
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