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Vote for speeding up the courts or against it!

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"Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

149K views 2K replies 436 participants last post by  kafkavert 
#1 ·
A few weeks ago I watched some old matches of James Blake including encounters against Kiefer (Vienna 2002), Agassi (Washington 2002), Safin (Hopman Cup 2004) and Moya (Indian Wells 2003) and it is quite obvious that today's game is far slower than it was then. James was able to generate direct winners off the forehand wing, whereas currently he has to fire his forehand at least two or three times to end the point. I just wonder whether his shots are less powerful now but looking at the shot and serve speeds it is probably not the reason. He uses the same frame as back then in 2002 or 2003, therefore it shouldn't be blamed on the technology of rackets. So what's the main reason - the balls or changes in surface? Or maybe James game is simply slower?
 
#1,108 ·
Well, it's the evolution of the sport. I prefer attacking tennis, but I suppose Nadal and Nole fans like it the way it is. It's subjective.

I think some variety would be nice though.
 
#1,111 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

I remember Novak DJokovic in early days , when he was so frustrated with Nadal's outstanding defense . He hit shot after shot which should be winner against any other player but not against Nadal. Nadal was even able to broke him with his passing shots so many times on his ground strokes especially on clay. Djokovic was seen than as a ultimate aggressive attacker .

And did Djokovic cried? Did he asked for surfaces to get faster so he can pass trough Nadal with his shots ?

Did he cried as Uncle Toni for Rafa Nadal "you should put more clay tournaments"?

No . He trained stronger, he worked harder to become better player than he was. Nadal and Federer made him what he is today.

And as they make him better player, Djokovic will with his game , make someone else - better.

Thats evolution of tennis.

Somebody like it - somebody not - but thats they way it is.
 
#1,112 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

I remember Novak DJokovic in early days , when he was so frustrated with Nadal's outstanding defense . He hit shot after shot which should be winner against any other player but not against Nadal. Nadal even broke him with his passing shots so many times. Djokovic was seen than as a ultimate aggressive attacker .

And did Djokovic cried? Did he asked for surfaces to get faster so he can pass trough Nadal with his shots ?

Did he cried as Uncle Toni for Rafa Nadal "you should put more clay tournaments"?

No . He trained stronger, he worked harder to become better player than he was. Nadal and Federer made him what he is today.

And as they make him better player, Djokovic will with his game , make someone else - better.

Thats evolution of tennis.

Somebody like it - somebody not - but thats they way it is.
Some sensible posters about today :D
 
#1,114 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

In his early days Djokovic was one dimensional ballbasher . Than he saw that with this kind of game he cant win against the best and that he needs to improve his defense as well. And he did.

Thats why some people are crying here.

They want faster courts not because they dont like this kind of tennis.

They want faster courts because they think - that will make their favorites better and their opponents worse.
 
#1,117 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

In his early days Djokovic was one dimensional ballbasher . Than he saw that with this kind of game he cant win against the best and that he needs to improve his defense as well. And he did.

Thats why some people are crying here.

They want faster courts not because they dont like this kind of tennis.

They want faster courts because they think - that will make their favorites better and their opponents worse.
Yep. I remember that only a few years back Djokovic was just another Chardy with a better backhand. He had to work so hard to become the player that he is today. And we should all view him as a martyr for that.
 
#1,118 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

let's be honest it's true.

my favorite player of all time, any era, any generation, is Rafael Nadal, who the slowest of the courts has benefited more than anyone but it is somewhat gross to watch a player hit 5 insane shots in a rally to no avail

beyond even Djokovic, look at Nadal, Ferrer, Murray, Federer- all of the top guys are incredible movers. besides Federer are any of them more talented or better hitters than the likes of Wawrinka, Tsonga, Soderling, etc? not really

obviously some courts are going to be slow, clay is a whole entire section of the season that is very slow, but to make the majority of hard court tournaments play very slowly is ludicrous. what happens is those who work very hard on technique and actually are naturals at the beauty of the sport will lose over and over and over to athletes just based on agility and speed. I hear time and time and time again how Novak Djokovic has the best blah blah shots but the reality it's not so much that any of his shots are particularly incredible, as much as the nature of him always being able to get to balls with plenty of time

posters here are obviously right, it's not a coincidence that defenders are all atop the ATP rankings. once again, besides Federer.

while I love a good battle as much as the next person, there becomes a point where you would expect SOME big tournaments to play fast and be tennis competitions rather than Olympic run-athons. tennis is, after all, more about how you hit the ball than speed, or at least I think it should be. obviously we are presented with a problem when a player can hit the ball much worse than his opponent yet still win a match just due to how slo-mo everything has become

I loved the Wawrinka-Djokovic match. it was great. but you're watching it and it obviously hits your mind at some point, "how am I watching a match where one guy is dictating play the whole time with aggressive and wonderfully placed shots yet still only tied up in the match?" not to take away from Djokovic, but it is appalling that a player like Wawrinka has played the majority of his careers on ridiculously slow courts, and that if the ATP were not retarded and actually allowed some tournaments to remain at a decent speed, the likes of him would have chances to be successful based on talent rather than purely athleticism.

Wawrinka and Djokovic are both great tennis players but at their cores you have to think that Stan is possibly more talented yet with way way less success? why? inconsistancy? yeah. choking at times? yeah. mentality/focus? sure. but also then you have to realize and take into account the fact that a player who is more of a pure ballstriker and less of a hedgehog running around will fail in this slow paced world of tennis surfaces. it is a bit unfair. for gods sake are we going to have to create an indoor Grand Slam just for the sake of being fair? better yet speed up Australia or the US OPen, or prefarably both. I love watching Nadal play, but something is seriously wrong when you watch those highlights from last years Australian Open of Nadal winning points even when Berdych hits what, 4,5,6 winning shots. it's ludicrous
 
#1,120 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

let's be honest it's true.

my favorite player of all time, any era, any generation, is Rafael Nadal, who the slowest of the courts has benefited more than anyone but it is somewhat gross to watch a player hit 5 insane shots in a rally to no avail

beyond even Djokovic, look at Nadal, Ferrer, Murray, Federer- all of the top guys are incredible movers. besides Federer are any of them more talented or better hitters than the likes of Wawrinka, Tsonga, Soderling, etc? not really

obviously some courts are going to be slow, clay is a whole entire section of the season that is very slow, but to make the majority of hard court tournaments play very slowly is ludicrous. what happens is those who work very hard on technique and actually are naturals at the beauty of the sport will lose over and over and over to athletes just based on agility and speed. I hear time and time and time again how Novak Djokovic has the best blah blah shots but the reality it's not so much that any of his shots are particularly incredible, as much as the nature of him always being able to get to balls with plenty of time

posters here are obviously right, it's not a coincidence that defenders are all atop the ATP rankings. once again, besides Federer.

while I love a good battle as much as the next person, there becomes a point where you would expect SOME big tournaments to play fast and be tennis competitions rather than Olympic run-athons. tennis is, after all, more about how you hit the ball than speed, or at least I think it should be. obviously we are presented with a problem when a player can hit the ball much worse than his opponent yet still win a match just due to how slo-mo everything has become

I loved the Wawrinka-Djokovic match. it was great. but you're watching it and it obviously hits your mind at some point, "how am I watching a match where one guy is dictating play the whole time with aggressive and wonderfully placed shots yet still only tied up in the match?" not to take away from Djokovic, but it is appalling that a player like Wawrinka has played the majority of his careers on ridiculously slow courts, and that if the ATP were not retarded and actually allowed some tournaments to remain at a decent speed, the likes of him would have chances to be successful based on talent rather than purely athleticism.

Wawrinka and Djokovic are both great tennis players but at their cores you have to think that Stan is possibly more talented yet with way way less success? why? inconsistancy? yeah. choking at times? yeah. mentality/focus? sure. but also then you have to realize and take into account the fact that a player who is more of a pure ballstriker and less of a hedgehog running around will fail in this slow paced world of tennis surfaces. it is a bit unfair. for gods sake are we going to have to create an indoor Grand Slam just for the sake of being fair? better yet speed up Australia or the US OPen, or prefarably both. I love watching Nadal play, but something is seriously wrong when you watch those highlights from last years Australian Open of Nadal winning points even when Berdych hits what, 4,5,6 winning shots. it's ludicrous

You are frustrated because you wanted Wawrinka to win in your heart.

In same way I am frustrated when Djokovic plays against Murray .

He simply cant hit winner trough him because Murray is with Nadal best defender on tour and all matches between them are grinding fest with Murray trying same tactics as Wawa today and thats is "try to defend from the first few shots , slice and get ball back slowly than attack".

But thats way it is .

For me Wawrinka was defending better today in most of the match than Novak.

Especially in first set . Thats why Djokovic lost it so badly.

Wawrinka was able to play outstanding defense on Novak shots, than to use his offense to hit winners .
 
#1,124 ·
#1,131 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

:facepalm:

Yeah, because faster courts will make every single match on the ATP a serve fest. Their are still serve fests whenever the serve bots face eachother even on these slow courts.
faster courts will make every match serve fest with few shots exchanged.

Most of fans doesnt love that.
 
#1,126 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

It's really hard to say what todays Night session match would have look like with a 5% faster court. It's only vague speculation...
 
#1,128 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

lol at the hacks that are thinking that faster courts = serve fests. How much evidence is there of that outside of grass/carpet 90's courts?

What we want is a good balance between offence and defence. Currently the game is too defensive based, for any tennis fans taste. No way should grass and clay courts be of a similar speed - it should require mammoth skill to win both, which today it doesn't really have. The AO is a joke, who wants to sit through grindfests like Djokovic/Nadal? Who wants to see players hit 4-5 shots per rally yet still lose? And on a broader scale, who wants to see such a quadopoly like there is today?

I don't think many people want to see ace fests ala the 90's, but equally no-one wants to watch grindfests either. A good balance and variety is good for sport in general. Unfortunately most people who watch tennis watch it for the rivalries and the big shots rather than the game itself, so this will never happen.
 
#1,136 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Why have courts been slowed down? Because of '90s acefests on grass and carpet that were boring, at least for the big crowd.
Why did there was acefests in '90s? Tennis had developed, and I'd say improved racquets and strings were one big reason. I think that was the first phase of slowing down courts.

But, since mid-00s, I don't think courts have been slowed down anymore for that reason. Grass wasn't anymore an acefest, and USO was quite medium-paced, '03 finalists Roddick and Ferrero as a proof of that. But, I think the reason was to stop Federer, and slow courts were where you could beat Fed. The only tournament Fed was hoped to win, was RG. And I don't think it's a coincidence it's the only slam that's been speeded up. And after Fed reached CGS, ATP/ITF's aim was to get a CGS also for Rafa. So, after Rafa won the slowed-down AO, only USO was missing. And USO got then slower and slower every year, and Rafa won there. And because big crowd loves long rallies, they haven't speeded up USO then. Plus Wimby playing like fast HC, HC slams being slow(ish) HCs, and RG being relatively fast clay, slams play more similarly than ten years ago. And that enables the Big Four to succeed in every slam. And the two newest members of Big Four, Djokovic and Murray are defensive players because that's the way you succeed these days, unless you're an extremely skilled player like Roger.

So, with ATP/ITF making surfaces favour big names, it seems there is no hope for faster surfaces. The new big names will probably be defensive players and current surfaces favour that kind of players. But if the next big names were good fast-court players, maybe ATP would then speed up the courts to favour them. But it seems difficult for an offensive player to get to top.

But if I was the boss of ATP, my compromise between commercial interest and game would the the following. First of all, freeze the racquet/string technology and take a strict attitude towards doping. That would prevent the game developing too much. Then, speed up grass to what it was in about '03. Not anymore an acefest but fast still. Keep clay as it is, it's as slow as grass was fast in '03. And speed up HCs to what they were in mid-00s before the massive slowing down. And make indoors fast. Carpet would maybe be too fast but fast HC would be great.
 
#1,139 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Slower courts are better for the Non-Fans expectators.
They want longer rallies to watch on TV, with the ball traveling in a slower speed, you can watch the point better in your TV.

So, $$$$ wins with slower courts. Sadly they're killing the variety (The big difference about this sport and all other sports in the world).
They're changing tennis into something more "Watchable" for the non-fans.

They're killing tennis as we know it, and I personally don't like this new aspect :sad:
 
#1,145 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Grinders are like cockroaches. They will always be the last ones standing...
Grinders are toughest thing to beat in tennis. And most exhausting

Thats why everybody wants to play like that. Because that kind of play gives result.
 
#1,142 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Australian Open TV asked some fans what would they like to change in tennis. Prize for who guesses how many said surface speed.

Wild guess of 0 before watching.
 
#1,144 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

When you cater a product to the masses the quality and depth of it will invariably decay. It's just a fact of life. The trick is to preserve some semblance of balance when it comes to satisfying both fanbases. Right now tennis failing in this aspect.
 
#1,148 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Fedtards hate good defensive players aka grinders because they are their Federer's cryptonite .

Not all but some of them like Djokovic Murray and Nadal - certainly are.
 
#1,149 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Fedtards hate good defensive players aka grinders because they are their Federer's cryptonite .

Not all but some of them like Djokovic Murray and Nadal - certainly are.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: We hate slow surfaces (not defensive players) because on a relatively neutral court, this 31.5-year-old would dismantle these overhyped pushers. For an indicative example see Dubai 2012 and Murray's comments after the match. The end.
 
#1,150 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

I know that fedtards will hate it - but Djokovic is not a grinder. He is counter-puncher with grinding ability.

True grinders are Nadal and Murray. Best in the world. Especially Murray now.

They will tear you up , and get ball back into game on every shot you hit and against this kind of players you need to hit 3-4 perfect shot to win a point.

Thats frustrates most of their opponents so they start to get tired, miss , make UEs and after that they are easy targets.
 
#1,155 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Murray is not a grinder :rolleyes:
so what he is than?

he is not pusher too because he goes for winners when he have chance. Same as nadal

pushers never go for winners they simply just return ball in the game without trying to attack it and wait for you to make mistake.

GRINDER is a player who stays in the point as long as necessary, hitting the ball with varying pace and spin, moving his opponent around the court, waiting for the opportunity to finish it with a winner, then executing that winning shot with confidence and precision. Grinders have learned how to work the point then go for the winner on the right ball.

That is definition of Grinder. It applies on both Murray and Nadal.
 
#1,156 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Most successful tennis players are grinders . Thats a fact.

Fed is Grinder too.

He also use same tactics as other guys ,to broke them, he is defensive on few first exchanges than he waits for weaker and shorter ball from hisopponent and - he attacks it when he had a chance.

Federer almost never attack first or second serve , and never tries to hit a winner from it , as Murray and Djokovic does sometimes, he just tries to stay in point as longer as possible , and to get weaker ball and to hit winner from it.
 
#1,159 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Most successful tennis players are grinders . Thats a fact.

Fed is Grinder too.

He also use same tactics as other guys ,to broke them, he is defensive on few first exchanges than he waits for weaker and shorter ball from hisopponent and - he attacks it when he had a chance.

Federer almost never attack first or second serve , and never tries to hit a winner from it , as Murray and Djokovic does sometimes, he just tries to stay in point as longer as possible , and to get weaker ball and to hit winner from it.
Most successful players are grinders...in this era.

Federer is clearly not a grinder.
 
#1,161 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Who says that's the definition of a grinder? Sounds more like measured aggression.
 
#1,163 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Who says that's the definition of a grinder? Sounds more like measured aggression.
tennis coach Don Petrine.
 
#1,162 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Also in latest match Federer vs Djokovic at London, stats said Federer was running more than Djokovic . Better Grinder always runs more :D

so that crap about Fed as ultimate attacker vs ultimate grinder is b'shit.

Federer and Djokovic are doing generally same thing. On both offense and defense.
 
#1,166 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Also in latest match Federer vs Djokovic at London, stats said Federer was running more than Djokovic . Better Grinder always runs more :D

so that crap about Fed as ultimate attacker vs ultimate grinder is b'shit.

Federer and Djokovic are doing generally same thing. On both offense and defense.
now that he is practicing double handed bh these days ......
 
#1,164 ·
Re: Grinding wins agains, speed up the courts or the sport will die.

Federer is especially grinder every time against Nadal and Djokovic. He cant win points against them with 2-3 shots so he tries to move them around as much as he can than waits to get weaker ball to attack it and hit winner.
 
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