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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-26-2012 09:32 PM
Freak3yman84
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwy View Post
..
Reported for spam.
11-26-2012 12:43 PM
Uncle Latso
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by casabe View Post
Left players play in "bad serve side" on break points or game points only 40-15 points. 40-0, 40-30 and adv are always played on the side their serve effect help them take off the court the other player. Right players are the other way around, only on 40-15. Is not that difficult to understand.

I know the number of points are the same in deuce and adv, but the most important point in a game is the last one, and left handers have a better probability of playing them in their best serve side.
How do you define a "good/bad serve side"?

Why would a BH return be more difficult to play from the side of the court, compared to the middle of it?

It's in both cases a slice serve that "runs away" from your weaker BH side, it's just as bad in both cases, so i don't see why it should be any different.

As a right hander i'd rather return an ad slice from a lefty, rather than the deuce side slice, it's much harder to have any control on it (imo) as you have no angle at all.
11-25-2012 10:40 PM
casabe
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
It makes no difference at all.

It's the same for the right handers serving against left handers.

Another thing - the same number of points are served on deuce and ad side. I guess that's the shock part...
Left players play in "bad serve side" on break points or game points only 40-15 points. 40-0, 40-30 and adv are always played on the side their serve effect help them take off the court the other player. Right players are the other way around, only on 40-15. Is not that difficult to understand.

I know the number of points are the same in deuce and adv, but the most important point in a game is the last one, and left handers have a better probability of playing them in their best serve side.
11-25-2012 05:34 PM
Uncle Latso
Re: New net rule in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
I understood your position, still I think other way. For example, you write "Luck is part of the game and it goes both ways" what is true, but still some arrangements should be taken in trying to limit it.

As for your question - I play tennis very rarely, have no ability to do it often. Still, remain behind myself the permition to write about tennis.

By the way, I was huge supporter of Hawk-eye, always realised the importance of this possible change. Just not this time, these let episodes don`t slow game really to get rid of them by any means, IMO.

But I very appreciated the logical explanation of your point, goodrep easily. If this bill to be taken, would be glad to discuss the effects it created in some time.
Yes, we'll be up discussing the effects one of those days

I believe the measure will be taken as i can't see what kind of objections would anyone have (i suppose they will ask the players who tried it in challengers, as well as umpires).

And of course anyone is here to discuss tennis, no matter playing or not. I'm just putting it this way because sometimes there are things one might understand better being in the players' shoes, which can hardly be the same as imagining it.

A woman could explain me in all details how painful giving birth is and i might think i understand by comparing it with kidney and tooth pains multiplied by smth, but i couldn't know what exactly it means, just assuming.

Now that i think of it, i suppose though that some clay players (especially CH level) might be against it, as very often these guys have a big clearance from the net at serve, as their first serves are often just slightly stronger kicks, which is predisposition for no lets at all overall, while the flat serving, big hitters would have an advantage in a way.

But it's such a small number in percent that it's not even worth mentioning imo.

Anyways, we'll see what happens. Maybe we're all missing some important argument, so let's wait and see.
11-25-2012 05:23 PM
Uncle Latso
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by casabe View Post
only the break or game point in an advantage point, for a left player makes a HUGE difference. I cant believe someone hasn't even think about it. I would like to see Fed/Nadal H2H if this existed before.
It makes no difference at all.

It's the same for the right handers serving against left handers.

Another thing - the same number of points are served on deuce and ad side. I guess that's the shock part...
11-25-2012 03:18 PM
casabe
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
I get you now. It's kind of a good idea, but Nadal fans will surely object.
only the break or game point in an advantage point, for a left player makes a HUGE difference. I cant believe someone hasn't even think about it. I would like to see Fed/Nadal H2H if this existed before.
11-25-2012 03:06 PM
Slasher1985
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by casabe View Post
For example, left players have a biggest probability of playing game points or brake points in their best effect service side the way they are playing today. That probability will be equal with right players if they apply this rule.
I get you now. It's kind of a good idea, but Nadal fans will surely object.
11-25-2012 02:59 PM
casabe
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Say what? Why?
For example, left players have a biggest probability of playing game points or brake points in their best effect service side the way they are playing today. That probability will be equal with right players if they apply this rule.
11-25-2012 02:57 PM
Sanya
Re: New net rule in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
It's absolutely the same during rallies or while serving.

The difference is that in 60-70% of the time, when serving, the ball doesn't change its trajectory, hence it's stupid to replay the point.

The rest 30-40% of the situations - half of them you get a dead ball and server wins, the other half the ball bounces high enough to be finishable by the returner.

So what is the use of the let rule when it doesn't change anything to the dynamics of the match or the points' fair distribution?

Here is what it does affect and why it should be changed -

1. Main argument - you can't measure/define/call it properly. There is always possibility for arguments and that's the main reason to get rid of it.
When it is a machine - it's about the fine tuning of it, so there is always "c'mooon, the whole World heard it, but your machine..." or - "what? that was a clean ace, what let are you talking about, !#@$#%$^%#$@"

No let - no useless disputes, the same for all and no human/machine factor.

If it is a human deciding, he'll need a knight armor nowadays if he wants to live another day.

So why does this rule exists when it's only a burden? Only because of tradition and it should be abolished asap.

About the "lets on purpose" - that's related to my expectation for the question - What part of the "keep the let rule" ppl have ever played tennis, or have played over 20 times (answer is <10% ).

It's being mentioned a few times and it has nothing to do with reality. No offense meant really, just FYI.

Luck is part of the game and it goes both ways, and you can't put rules to limit it. That's what the people of the times when tennis was invented didn't know.
Now as a modern society we know this and we can use this knowledge.

Just think about this thread few years ago about Hawk eye. There would be 95% against. It was a novelty much more interfering in the dynamics of tennis, much more ruining those traditional habits. But it was right to be done.

And if we keep the let rule, we should ask all serves that are +/- 3mm in or out of the line to be called let because this is the margin for error of the Hawk eye system.
Which isn't what tennis needs, nor it needs this let rule, again because it's only predisposition for quarrels and it would be the same for both players anyway without it, but without the quarrels part.
I understood your position, still I think other way. For example, you write "Luck is part of the game and it goes both ways" what is true, but still some arrangements should be taken in trying to limit it.

As for your question - I play tennis very rarely, have no ability to do it often. Still, remain behind myself the permition to write about tennis.

By the way, I was huge supporter of Hawk-eye, always realised the importance of this possible change. Just not this time, these let episodes don`t slow game really to get rid of them by any means, IMO.

But I very appreciated the logical explanation of your point, goodrep easily. If this bill to be taken, would be glad to discuss the effects it created in some time.
11-25-2012 02:52 PM
Slasher1985
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

Quote:
Originally Posted by casabe View Post
the only rule the atp should approve is that lefty players starts their service game serving the other way around.
Say what? Why?
11-25-2012 02:48 PM
casabe
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

the only rule the atp should approve is that lefty players starts their service game serving the other way around.
11-25-2012 01:15 PM
Transcender
Re: New net rule in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
Why? Seriously?

I would really like to have a stat about the people who are against abolishing the net rule and i would be shocked if more than 10% of them have ever played, or played more than 20 times..

How is the serve let any different than a let during a rally?

"Imagine during match point blabla.." - that's the stupidest argument i have ever heard. Coz the same goes for a ball coming off the forehand and clipping the net f.e.

There is no sensible, logical or even reasonable argument in favor of keeping this dumb rule. There just isn't except the blind "it's tradition" argument, which is the same type of argument that religion has - yes, it's stupid, it's not logical, but it's tradition...

21st century guys...
Exactly, and rally "lets" count, so why not serve.
11-25-2012 12:42 PM
Uncle Latso
Re: New net rule in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
It`s not about tradition, but logic. Netcord in rally has completely another story - before it opponent at least had a chance to play another way not to give his rival opportunity to make a shot which finished the point this way. It`s still some lucky factor, but come on, you can`t seriously compare it to let where you can get on return dead netcord and have no chance since the start of the point even to get to the ball. The point is completely out of your hands, it`s not even Karlovic` 1st serve.

I agree that tradition shouldn`t be the reason for keeping some rules. But it`s not my argument. On serve player has calm, neutral position. Theoretically it can be even taught to serve every time "let" actually. I don`t think that ever happens, but still - would you like to see a lot of such points?

But for cancelling something and implementing something new it`s innovators turn to give some reason. The reason "oldish tradition" isn`t convincing.
It's absolutely the same during rallies or while serving.

The difference is that in 60-70% of the time, when serving, the ball doesn't change its trajectory, hence it's stupid to replay the point.

The rest 30-40% of the situations - half of them you get a dead ball and server wins, the other half the ball bounces high enough to be finishable by the returner.

So what is the use of the let rule when it doesn't change anything to the dynamics of the match or the points' fair distribution?

Here is what it does affect and why it should be changed -

1. Main argument - you can't measure/define/call it properly. There is always possibility for arguments and that's the main reason to get rid of it.
When it is a machine - it's about the fine tuning of it, so there is always "c'mooon, the whole World heard it, but your machine..." or - "what? that was a clean ace, what let are you talking about, !#@$#%$^%#$@"

No let - no useless disputes, the same for all and no human/machine factor.

If it is a human deciding, he'll need a knight armor nowadays if he wants to live another day.

So why does this rule exists when it's only a burden? Only because of tradition and it should be abolished asap.

About the "lets on purpose" - that's related to my expectation for the question - What part of the "keep the let rule" ppl have ever played tennis, or have played over 20 times (answer is <10% ).

It's being mentioned a few times and it has nothing to do with reality. No offense meant really, just FYI.

Luck is part of the game and it goes both ways, and you can't put rules to limit it. That's what the people of the times when tennis was invented didn't know.
Now as a modern society we know this and we can use this knowledge.

Just think about this thread few years ago about Hawk eye. There would be 95% against. It was a novelty much more interfering in the dynamics of tennis, much more ruining those traditional habits. But it was right to be done.

And if we keep the let rule, we should ask all serves that are +/- 3mm in or out of the line to be called let because this is the margin for error of the Hawk eye system.
Which isn't what tennis needs, nor it needs this let rule, again because it's only predisposition for quarrels and it would be the same for both players anyway without it, but without the quarrels part.
11-25-2012 11:07 AM
Jverweij
Re: Should The ATP Let Go of the Service Let?

No. Not because I'm against it, but I really don't see the advantage of not having the service let, so no need to change it imo.
11-25-2012 10:55 AM
Sanya
Re: New net rule in 2013.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
Why? Seriously?

I would really like to have a stat about the people who are against abolishing the net rule and i would be shocked if more than 10% of them have ever played, or played more than 20 times..

How is the serve let any different than a let during a rally?

"Imagine during match point blabla.." - that's the stupidest argument i have ever heard. Coz the same goes for a ball coming off the forehand and clipping the net f.e.

There is no sensible, logical or even reasonable argument in favor of keeping this dumb rule. There just isn't except the blind "it's tradition" argument, which is the same type of argument that religion has - yes, it's stupid, it's not logical, but it's tradition...

21st century guys...
It`s not about tradition, but logic. Netcord in rally has completely another story - before it opponent at least had a chance to play another way not to give his rival opportunity to make a shot which finished the point this way. It`s still some lucky factor, but come on, you can`t seriously compare it to let where you can get on return dead netcord and have no chance since the start of the point even to get to the ball. The point is completely out of your hands, it`s not even Karlovic` 1st serve.

I agree that tradition shouldn`t be the reason for keeping some rules. But it`s not my argument. On serve player has calm, neutral position. Theoretically it can be even taught to serve every time "let" actually. I don`t think that ever happens, but still - would you like to see a lot of such points?

But for cancelling something and implementing something new it`s innovators turn to give some reason. The reason "oldish tradition" isn`t convincing.
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