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Thread: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his award? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-15-2012 08:43 PM
Sen no Rikyu
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

I haven't seen this mentioned at all in this thread, so here it is: The tennis anti-doping rules state (s. 9.1): "An Anti-Doping Rule Violation committed by a Player in connection with or arising out of an In-Competition test automatically leads to Disqualification of the results obtained by the Player in the Competition in question, with all resulting consequences, forfeiture of any medals, titles, ranking points and Prize Money obtained by the Player in that Competition."

http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/rules/
08-25-2012 07:47 PM
HKz
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serverer View Post
I disagree that mental strength is as big as youre making it out to be. How do you decide who has the best mental strength? just sort by the ATP ranking? what about that guy that played with appendicitis? somehow i dont see him making the top 10 any time soon.
Lol? You can't be serious. The guy that had appendicitis didn't play a top player now, so really stupid comparison. Fact is players are better than each other in the top 200 because of stronger mental strength. Roger, Rafa and Novak are at the top because they are the best mentally day in and day out against everyone else. Yes, they lose to lower rank players here and there, but that doesn't mean they aren't mentally stronger in general. They clearly don't hit the ball the biggest, they aren't the fastest players on the tour, they don't have the biggest or best serves, etc. In fact for many of their attributes, you can find plenty of other players in the top 200 with just as good or better aspects.

Again, the fact that you didn't answer my question of why Murray isn't in the mix with those 3 I mentioned. Sure, people complain about his forehand, but it is good enough. It is entirely mental for him to continue to play the right shots and actually connect with the ball on an important point. Taking PEDs aren't going to make you focus and come up with a first serve on a break point down.
08-25-2012 07:44 PM
HKz
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
I agree doping isn't going to do much for your technique or general skill level in tennis.

But for, say, the top 100 players, we're talking about VERY fine margins between winning and losing. These guys are all immensely talented tennis players. Using certain banned substances may aid/improve muscle strength (which can lead to more powerful serves/strokes), reflexes and stamina, and, crucially, reduce time needed for recovery between matches. This last element could make a big difference in tournaments, especially the demanding five-set majors.

I think the head of ITFs response a few years back when asked if there could be a problem with doping in tennis was the same as yours - doping isn't going to help tennis players get better, so there's no problem. And that's not the attitude you want to see from the head of the sport, quite frankly, if you want the sport to try and reduce the amount of cheating going on...
Right but what I argue is that the fine margins are almost entirely mental. Strength has barely anything to do with the game, or else why isn't the top 10 all big hitters mental strength is the most important aspect for the top 200, then stamina, then tennis skill and then lastly physical aspects including.
08-25-2012 06:30 PM
emotion
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

I've always said they go about it the wrong way
Don't ban them, strip them of all past achievements and take away like the last year's prize money
08-25-2012 06:24 PM
dencod16
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

i don't think PED's affect tennis as much as other sports, with the likes of Murray, Berdych, and Cilic no PED will help them achieve more. Banning is enough i think. And Lance Armstrong still has not been proven after 13 years.
08-25-2012 05:08 PM
Lugburz
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennis2tennis View Post
It's not like cycling/athletics were you can give it to the runner-up who was officially the second best/fastest etc! In tennis the whole tournament is officially void because the cheater has distorted the outcome starting from round 1!
true, but anyway if doper wins, I'd vote for all the stuff that goes to the winner, to be taken away.
08-25-2012 04:10 PM
Han Solo
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidbourbon View Post
1) I don't have a huge problem with performance enhancing drugs. In other words, I don't think it's in any way shape or form a moral issue. But I think you either have to let everybody do it or nobody at all. So that's the fixation.

2) I suspect that doping in tennis is quite rampant. You could tell me tomorrow that every single player in the top 20 had done at least sone doping in the pat 3 years, and I wouldn't be shocked. EPO, in particular, would be very helpful for tennis players, and under the current testing guidelines you'd have to be full retard to get busted doing EPO. It's in and out of your system very quickly.




Sad to say, but I pretty much feel the same way.
08-25-2012 04:04 PM
Han Solo
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Don't be dramatic. Yes, there are obvious underlying comments from abraxas, but whatever, the actual question itself is actually something interesting and hasn't really been brought up.

Finding out someone was a doper is certainly very tough in tennis. Like was said earlier, it fucks everything from the first match onward. It certainly isn't like other sports such as cycling or running where you can just take him out and bump up everyone behind him. One day I hope drug testing reaches new levels of innovation, consistency and accuracy because as is it seems rather easy to get away with so much..

However, I do have to say, while doping is certainly cheating and by no way would I advocate doping, but for a sport like tennis, does it actually help? I mean as my private coach would always say, tennis is 80% mental, so no matter how many years of doping you have, if you can't mentally win an important or if you don't have good technique or whatever, you aren't going to win. So while doping is certainly a serious offense, honestly, if a player couldn't beat a doper, I doubt it had anything to do with the person being a doper, but rather one just being mentally stronger or just a better tennis player. If I remember correctly, back in 2007 when Roddick was asked about Canas' return to the game, Roddick said something like "it wasn't like he didn't know how to play tennis" and I think that is exactly right about dopers. So again just to reiterate my point, while doping certainly is cheating and any player caught doping should be punished heavily, I don't think it really truly has a great bearing on our sport of tennis as it does nothing for your techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength which are all much more important than the physical aspects doping can "help" with, so any player losing to a doper IMO has nothing to do with the doper being a doper (unless something way out of the norm is evident like the guy is hitting 200 MPH serves, lol..)
I agree doping isn't going to do much for your technique or general skill level in tennis.

But for, say, the top 100 players, we're talking about VERY fine margins between winning and losing. These guys are all immensely talented tennis players. Using certain banned substances may aid/improve muscle strength (which can lead to more powerful serves/strokes), reflexes and stamina, and, crucially, reduce time needed for recovery between matches. This last element could make a big difference in tournaments, especially the demanding five-set majors.

I think the head of ITFs response a few years back when asked if there could be a problem with doping in tennis was the same as yours - doping isn't going to help tennis players get better, so there's no problem. And that's not the attitude you want to see from the head of the sport, quite frankly, if you want the sport to try and reduce the amount of cheating going on...
08-25-2012 07:11 AM
Mountaindewslave
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taejin View Post
Agassi admitted to being a party doper and nothing happened. I know it's not exactly like the question from the op, but it's as close as it gets I guess
lol agassi admitted to using some drugs when he was having poor form, recreational ones, which if anything HELPED him plummet in the rankings. preformance enhancing drugs is an entire other thing and if they find out a player has used those then YES. but they'd have to find out in a reasonable amount of time. years is ludicrous and unacceptable to go back and change, however months would be different. also never would the ATP have legal means to get the prize money back after so late in the game BUT stripping the titles/credit sure.

I can only think of a handful of players that are generally pretty known to have used preformance enhancing drugs in their careers. it gets old the Agassi comments, as the ATP regulations on recreational drugs are absolutely ludicrous. someone's going to OD on heroin a month after winning WImbledon and get their title stripped, what a joke
08-25-2012 06:55 AM
Benny_Maths
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
Of course this is only hypothetical and has no resemblance whatsoever to reality. I'm just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pray-for-palestine-and-israel View Post
if someone (hypothetical) made 4 slam finals only to lose to someone
who years later was found out to be a drugs cheater

i think that the slams should be given to the player who made 4 finals or whatever
because they made 4 finals its obvious they were beating everyone else except that player

and if PEDs were used thats an unfair advantage

to not give the slams to the other guy is just unfair
Completely hypothetical and nothing to do with any players of course.

My reaction to this this thread and in particular the two quotes above:

[youtube]-ISsfG7HZ4Q[/youtube]
08-25-2012 04:51 AM
Topspindoctor
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by pray-for-palestine-and-israel View Post
if someone (hypothetical) made 4 slam finals only to lose to someone
who years later was found out to be a drugs cheater

i think that the slams should be given to the player who made 4 finals or whatever
because they made 4 finals its obvious they were beating everyone else except that player

and if PEDs were used thats an unfair advantage

to not give the slams to the other guy is just unfair
08-25-2012 04:14 AM
Mjau!
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
I don't thinks so- a lot of the logic is that everybody else does it, so they think: if I win doping then I still won and am proud of my achievements because everyone else was doping.
That's such a rationalization (but no doubt common). If you dope, you're just a cheat, a fraud and a liar and your results are meaningless, regardless of how many other frauds there are. Why would there be any value in a "win" aided by such an egregious violation of the rules?

It must be so rewarding to know you're the #1 fraud and cheater. Something to tell your grand children about.

I think Christophe Bassons was treated so poorly by the insecure dopers because he reminded them that they're really just a bunch of filthy cheaters after all.
08-25-2012 04:00 AM
Mjau!
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
the thing is, a lot of the Performance Enhancing Drugs tend to be unhealthy in the long run. Thus, by adopting a "everyone does them so let's allow them" stance, you're basically (1) advocating (or at the very least approving) an unhealthy lifestyle among sportsmen and (2) telling to the ones who want to play sports free of drugs that they won't be able to compete or win jackshit in the current conditions.
To quote a retired pro-cyclist:

Quote:
Doping destroys the Darwinian aspect of sports. Even if all athletes were doping with the exact same products, the best athlete can no longer be defined by competition.
It no longer is a competition to find out the best athlete, but instead the athlete who's body best adapts to doping. Some people may be cured from a headache by 1 aspirin, others may take 5 and the headache rages on. No matter if 1% or 100% of athletes dope, the results become skewed by widely varying degrees of adaptation to pharmaceuticals, in a non-Darwinian fashion, that fundamentally prevents the determination of the strongest athlete. This is one reason, amongst many that I think instinctively makes people offended by doping. It blurs their vision as to a very fundamental question in human societies for thousands of years: Who is the best?

The best leader
The best farmer
The best warrior...

People want to know who is the best. Period.

The second reason I'd say doping is bad is that it creates a moral and ethical selection, which should not be a part of athletics. An athlete who's moral compass directs him away from doping, will become a less competitive athlete. Relative morals should have nothing to do with the outcome of athletic competition. The rules of the game serve as the morals for each and every competitor, no matter what their personal thoughts/ethics are. If doping comes into play, it creates a moral dilemma for some and less so for others, driving away some athletes who may be better prepared and more physically talented, but have moral issue with the act of doping. This, once again, creates a situation where we are unable to define "the best", as perhaps the best was driven away from the sport due to his/her ethical grounding.

This not even touching the health consequences, etc etc... But I'm sure you guys have go that one.

JV
08-25-2012 03:27 AM
GOATsol
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Quote:
Originally Posted by pray-for-palestine-and-israel View Post
at the very least the slam should be taken off

and the losing SF and finalists share the slam
LOL you can't share a slam.

And why not the quarterfinalist or fourth round opponent? Or 3rd round? Oh.
It screws up the whole tournament, see?
08-25-2012 03:22 AM
Dmitry Verdasco
Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

The should be stripped of titles they won when they tested positive, all prizemoney earned when they tested positive, and should be banned for life.

That's for performance enhancing.

Recreational drugs just fines
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