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Thread: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-10-2011 02:48 PM
Haelfix
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

I was looking at the updated 2011 stats on the ATP tour site. The return numbers predictably dropped a little (and probably would have dropped more for Novak and Rafa had they played more late season tennis due to the quicker courts), but all the same Novak's year ranks as one of the greatest overall return game performances in recent times. I couldn't find better (edit- Actually Coria matches the performance in 2003, but that is biased as he played far fewer hard court events relative to clay).
(return games won percentage, total matches played)

1 Djokovic, Novak 39 76
2 Murray, Andy 36 69
3 Nadal, Rafael 34 84

Whats really interesting is that it wasn't 1 thing that made his percentage superior to other great return seasons. For instance Murray's return of first serve stats are better this year, and Malisse has a better break point conversion ratio. Its rather, the well roundedness (he's at the top in all major return categories).
10-28-2011 01:32 PM
Saberq
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBkeeper View Post
I thought saberq was a smart guy ? but it seems he is dumb as shit ...

---> How can Djokovic be the return GOAT when he is not even the best returner in his own era?
THIS !
really?dumb as shit?really man?
10-28-2011 01:29 PM
Clydey
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeretiC View Post
And now you have gone too far. Do you even read what are you writing or what others are writing or how more and more ridiculous your posts are getting? What Ad Hominem ffs? I said that you had a valid thread and a good read, but that I don't like your attempt trying to spin facts and truth disregarding one stats and grasping only to others to picture Murray as return GOAT (what you repeatedly stated like a zillion times). Where is the personal attack in that? Where do you see me dodging facts, it is you who is doing that (lets not count clay, lets not count grass, lets not count games won, second serves or break points and lets count only 1st serve return because CLYDEY says that is the REAL return, 2nd serve return is only for starting a rally , we all know players don't rally on first serve points, nothing else should matter, and we will call it a FACT, fu.k the official stats and atp, they got things wrong, we all know it is Murray who has to be the best returner).

And I did not have any cause, I was simply quoting atp stats when I got into this thread.

BEST RETURNER is the one who is having best percentage in winning return games and that is the the end of it. If you don't like it go write a fu.king petition to ditch clay results and other stats from the books, except 1st serve return on hard courts to help Murray's cause.

P.S. It would have been Ad hominem if I called you thickheaded poster who always tends to pull things like this without talking about the subject and facts.
You clearly don't know what an ad hominem is. When you focus on me or my motives rather than the substance of my argument, that is an ad hominem.

Take a moment to read the thread. I am not the only one who holds the view that clay court return stats are largely irrelevant.
10-28-2011 11:21 AM
Apemant
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Doesn't need to be ignored, but if this is to be done properly, you need to weight return stats by the speed of the court (and trust me, that's not easy).

This is why Chela looks to be such a godlike returner, because he hardly ever plays off clay, and when he does, he loses early.


Nadal breaks 44% of career return games on clay, 30% on hard. Makes his "average" totally misleading for both.
Also, when talking to people, you should factor in their IQ.

If their IQ is too low to comprehend certain 'tougher' lines of reasoning, then it is pointless trying to argue with such persons.
10-28-2011 10:53 AM
TBkeeper
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Davydenko Best returner /thread ...
10-28-2011 10:42 AM
TBkeeper
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

I thought saberq was a smart guy ? but it seems he is dumb as shit ...

---> How can Djokovic be the return GOAT when he is not even the best returner in his own era?
THIS !
10-28-2011 10:34 AM
Apemant
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
So who returns better? Please say Mugray, because I need a laugh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
you lost all credibility along with Roadmap given that you will support Murray in everything ....next Murray has the best FH....DJOKOVIC HAS THE BEST RETURN IN TODAYS GAME.......every god damn expert said so for years yet two British dudes know better........
Returning skills are not to be confused with overall return game.

Statistics about winning return games is not solely based on return skills, but also on rallying ability.

Hence, Djokovic's return statistics are a bit 'inflated' - although not as much as Nadal's (who is regularly among the top returners in Ricoh matchfacts even though his return is nothing to write home about - he 'just' wins most rallies where he does succeed in returning).

In fact, the way he beat Nadal and Federer this year is precisely because of his rallying abilities.


This is not to say that Djokovic isn't a great returner. Obviously, he is great, very talented. But Murray is better as far as returning alone is concerned - when we don't take into account the subsequent rally. Djokovic's talent is precisely in returning serve in a way to negate the server's advantage; and from that point he dominates because he is simply better than anyone else ATM when it comes to rallies. Even than Nadal, who is traditionally dependent on rallying, far more than on serve or return.

(This is highlighted by his phenomenal hold game from 2010. - it's not THAT much about his serve, but his serve + rallying. It is hard to break Nadal's serve not BECAUSE he has an excellent serve - but because it's hard to win a rally againt him, if you're not named Novak.)
10-28-2011 10:12 AM
HeretiC
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Djokovic not the best returner on tour never mind ever.
Of course he is not career wise, both Nadal and Murray have better stats than him, although so far he is the best in 2011.
10-28-2011 09:46 AM
rocketassist
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Djokovic not the best returner on tour never mind ever.
10-28-2011 07:52 AM
leng jai
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

10-28-2011 07:25 AM
HeretiC
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Again, a pure ad hominem. The statistics suggest that he is. Rather than address those, you insist on focusing on a fictional agenda. Indeed, much of what I've said has been about the second serve, where I stated that Agassi and Nalbandian are far more effective than both Murray and Djokovic. As an overall returner, however, the statistics point to Murray as being the best. Dodging the facts doesn't help your cause, but rather makes you appear desperate. It's a sure sign that someone is at a loss when they resort to ad hominems.

Either way, this thread has gone way off topic. This all started as a response to Saberq calling Djokovic the return GOAT. Feel free to discuss the content of the article from now on.
And now you have gone too far. Do you even read what are you writing or what others are writing or how more and more ridiculous your posts are getting? What Ad Hominem ffs? I said that you had a valid thread and a good read, but that I don't like your attempt trying to spin facts and truth disregarding one stats and grasping only to others to picture Murray as return GOAT (what you repeatedly stated like a zillion times). Where is the personal attack in that? Where do you see me dodging facts, it is you who is doing that (lets not count clay, lets not count grass, lets not count games won, second serves or break points and lets count only 1st serve return because CLYDEY says that is the REAL return, 2nd serve return is only for starting a rally , we all know players don't rally on first serve points, nothing else should matter, and we will call it a FACT, fu.k the official stats and atp, they got things wrong, we all know it is Murray who has to be the best returner).

And I did not have any cause, I was simply quoting atp stats when I got into this thread.

BEST RETURNER is the one who is having best percentage in winning return games and that is the the end of it. If you don't like it go write a fu.king petition to ditch clay results and other stats from the books, except 1st serve return on hard courts to help Murray's cause.

P.S. It would have been Ad hominem if I called you thickheaded poster who always tends to pull things like this without talking about the subject and facts.
10-28-2011 06:54 AM
GOAT = Fed
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Well a potebtially very insightful discussion has now become a 'tard war, this thread has been destroyed by the 'tards.
10-28-2011 02:33 AM
Saberq
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
He has given out plenty of bakery products.

Either way, it wouldn't matter. Murray is less secure on serve than Djokovic. For that reason, Djokovic is more likely to win a lopsided set this year.
and given that he is A MUCH BETTER PLAYER THAN HIM
10-28-2011 02:30 AM
Clydey
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nole fan View Post
It really makes no sense that Murray is leading those stats... it's not like he's giving bagels and breadsticks everywhere.
He has given out plenty of bakery products.

Either way, it wouldn't matter. Murray is less secure on serve than Djokovic. For that reason, Djokovic is more likely to win a lopsided set this year.
10-28-2011 02:26 AM
Nole fan
Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

It really makes no sense that Murray is leading those stats... it's not like he's giving bagels and breadsticks everywhere.
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