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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-07-2017 06:53 PM
InfoKenway
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Gasquet is certainly defensive. He is only offensive vs very defensive players. Moderate baseliners usually control rallies against him.
Jaziri is an allcourter. He is sometimes S&V-ing. Same for Robert.
Vesely isn't offensive. Though he has very weird style, which varies from pusher to ballbasher.
Medvedev is a pure ballbasher.
Bagnis is defensive, while Dzumhur is moderate.
Del Potro, Johnson, Mahut, Vesely should have X.
02-07-2017 06:38 PM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Bunruot View Post
(X) for young Zverev and Struff imo. While not the most reliable serves in the game, both are serving very big, 205-210 km/h, in the Isner-Ivo range. And in the case of Struff, he looks hopeless without serve.
In case of Struff you're right. I watched him against Wawrinka last year in Paris and he had a big serve there, that was the key to win over Stan.

I get a hint, that i have to switch the styles of Gasquet and Simon. What do you think??
02-07-2017 06:34 PM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by zjtennis View Post
I don't think it would be easy to sort out players by Off/Def especially in the special case of so-called "servebot-pushers" (i.e. Lopez, Dimitrov to a degree, Troicki). I think the "All Court", "Defensive Baseliner", "Counterpuncher", "Grinder", "Serve & Volley", "Agressive Baseliner" (like Wawrinka or Verdasco), "Early Striker" (think Goffin or Nishikori), "Big Server" and "Tricky" (I think maybe Tomic belongs here and maybe Stepanek, although I think Stepanek is an "All-Courter") makes it more accurate.
That was also my first thought, to divide in 6 or 7 categories but for me for example "Serve & Volley" and "Agressive Baseliner" are an offensive style to play, so i sum up this players into 1 group "offensive players".
02-07-2017 06:24 PM
Long Bunruot
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

(X) for young Zverev and Struff imo. While not the most reliable serves in the game, both are serving very big, 205-210 km/h, in the Isner-Ivo range. And in the case of Struff, he looks hopeless without serve.
02-07-2017 05:39 PM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Bunruot View Post
On a quick look, Nishikori/Cilic are mod-off hybrid, I would count them as off (in comparison with the other mods around them (Rafa/Nole), they spend less time behind the baseline and definitely more eager to end the point with a winner).

Thiem is definitely not an all court player, more like mod-def hybrid depending on the surface (for instance, he hit 91% of his shots from behind the baseline against Nishikori, clay but only 75% indoor against Raonic).

For Fed, Stan and definitely Chardy you should add (X). No brainer for the French and the other two have impressive placement on serve. (I did post Staniel's profiles (clay/grass) somewhere, ask some mod for the location of the stats thread).

Goffin is not defensive, more like mod. Especially if you put him in his own category, miniature tennis players.

Tsonga might need an (X). You should check tennis abstract, ATP Stats Leaderboard. There you have his avg ace rate in the last three seasons and with that you can check if there is any correlation between lower avg ace rate and %holds/results.

Sock is one of the most offensive players in that Mod category, Ferrer is definitely not mod. I would switch him with Agut, at least RBA can generate pace on forehand, often close to 80 mph avg.

These days Baghdatis is more like an mod-def hybrid, he trades a couple of shots and then he gets tired/bored and spams drop shots.

Troicki is definitely def (91% behind the baseline, indoor, hello?), JMDP is moderate and Mahut should be counted as offensive. S/V bot counted as mod, must be copy/paste mistake. And since he's relevant only indoor/grass (where he can defend to some extent) maybe you should squeeze him into the ALL category. In this case some input from smarter fellas (latso/leng jai/burrow/woj /rocketassist) would help, hopefully they find your thread.

Evans is more like mod-off hybrid, probably the less offensive player in his category. Coric is on his way to become mod, don't know if he is there yet. Definitely not the bore he used to be two years ago.

Monaco was debatable (when he was playing), Thompson is def (behind the baseline, no pace, net clearance 90+ cm on both wings), Zeballos is mod, definitely not offensive. Same for Chung, def not off and Dzumhur and Pavlasek should switch categories.

Nishioka is kinda pushy, maybe downgrade/upgrade to def, The Georgian superstar and Kuznetsov should have their own category. Lajovic is moderate (kinda def during the last AO). Kravchuk is kinda serve-dependent, unbeatable when clutch. Albot is just bad.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions.
Like i said, it is hard to compare some players to others, so i judge the players only by watching them without thinking in similiar players.
And yes some players I dont watch very often so far, fot that maybe i have an other assessment like in the case of Jordan Thompson.

So I changed something in my list on the basis of your suggestions and hope you can watch on that list again to tell me if you find other "mistakes".

1 - Andy Murray (Def)
2 - Novak Djokovic (Mod)
3 - Stan Wawrinka (Off) (X)
4 - Milos Raonic (Off) (X)
5 - Kei Nishikori (Mod/Off)
6 - Rafael Nadal (Mod)
7 - Marin Cilic (Mod/Off) (X)
8 - Dominic Thiem (Mod)
9 - Gael Monfils (Def)
10 - Roger Federer (All) (X)
11 - David Goffin (Mod)
12 - Tomas Berdych (Off) (X)
13 - Grigor Dimitrov (All)
14 - Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (Off) (X)
15 - Nick Kyrgios (Off) (X)
16 - Roberto Bautista-Agut (Mod)
17 - Lucas Pouille (All)
18 - Richard Gasquet (All)
19 - Ivo Karlovic (Off) (X)
20 - Jack Sock (Mod)
21 - Pablo Cuevas (Mod)
22 - Alexander Zverev (Mod)
23 - John Isner (Off) (X)
24 - Gilles Simon (Def)
25 - David Ferrer (Def)
26 - Pablo Carreno Busta (Mod)
27 - Sam Querrey (Off) (X)
28 - Gilles Müller (Mod) (X)
29 - Philipp Kohlschreiber (Mod)
30 - Albert Ramos (Def)
31 - Steve Johnson (Off)
32 - Bernard Tomic (Mod)
33 - Feliciano Lopez (Off) (X)
34 - Marcos Baghdatis (Mod)
35 - Mischa Zverev (Off)
36 - Martin Klizan (Off)
37 - Viktor Troicki (Def)
38 - Juan Martin Del Potro (Mod)
39 - Marcel Granollers (Def)
40 - Fernando Verdasco (Off)
41 - Joao Sousa (Mod)
42 - Nicolas Mahut (Off)
43 - Paolo Lorenzi (Def)
44 - Benoit Paire (Off)
45 - Dan Evans (Mod)
46 - Nicolas Almagro (Off)
47 - Kyle Edmund (Mod)
48 - Fabio Fognini (Off)
49 - Federico Delbonis (Mod)
50 - Florian Mayer (All)
51 - Malek Jaziri (Mod)
52 - Karen Khachanov (Off)
53 - Diego Schwartzman (Mod)
54 - Jiri Vesely (Off)
55 - Andrey Kuznetsov (Off)
56 - Robin Haase (Mod)
57 - Borna Coric (Def)
58 - Steve Darcis (Mod)
59 - Jan-Lennard Struff (Off)
60 - Adrian Mannarino (All)
61 - Yen-Hsun Lu (Mod)
62 - Stephane Robert (Mod)
63 - Daniil Medvedev (Mod)
64 - Dustin Brown (Off) (X)
65 - Jordan Thompson (Def)
66 - Juan Monaco (Mod)
67 - Thomaz Bellucci (Mod)
68 - Andreas Seppi (Mod)
69 - Alexandr Dolgopolov (All)
70 - Paul-Henri Matthieu (Mod)
71 - Jeremy Chardy (Off) (X)
72 - Horacio Zeballos (Mod)
73 - Hyeon Chung (Mod)
74 - Donald Young (Mod)
75 - Dudi Sela (All)
76 - Gastao Elias (Mod)
77 - Kevin Anderson (Off) (X)
78 - Ryan Harrison (Mod)
79 - Facundo Bagnis (Mod)
80 - Denis Istomin (Mod)
81 - Carlos Berlocq (Mod)
82 - Damir Dzumhur (Def)
83 - Adam Pavlasek (Mod)
84 - Guido Pella (Def)
85 - Yoshihito Nishioka (Def)
86 - Thiago Monteiro (Mod)
87 - Konstantin Kravchuk (Off)
88 - Renzo Olivo (Def)
89 - Nikoloz Basilashvili (Off)
90 - Rogerio Dutra Silva (Def)
91 - Mikhal Youzhny (All)
92 - Dusan Lajovic (Mod)
93 - Illya Marchenko (Off)
94 - Guillermo Garcia-Lopez (Mod)
95 - Radu Albot (Def)
96 - Victor Estrella (Def)
97 - Frances Tiafoe (Off)
98 - Taylor Fritz (Mod)
99 - Mikhail Kukushikin (Mod)
100 - Jared Donaldson (Off)
02-07-2017 04:11 PM
zjtennis
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

I don't think it would be easy to sort out players by Off/Def especially in the special case of so-called "servebot-pushers" (i.e. Lopez, Dimitrov to a degree, Troicki). I think the "All Court", "Defensive Baseliner", "Counterpuncher", "Grinder", "Serve & Volley", "Agressive Baseliner" (like Wawrinka or Verdasco), "Early Striker" (think Goffin or Nishikori), "Big Server" and "Tricky" (I think maybe Tomic belongs here and maybe Stepanek, although I think Stepanek is an "All-Courter") makes it more accurate.
02-07-2017 03:21 PM
Long Bunruot
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo Ryan View Post
Yes thank you, that is what i meant.
Federer and Tsonga dont have many aces or serve winners but for example the great Roger has a incredible art to serve, even the 2nd serves are often not easy to reach for the opponent and he can make the winner with the next shot.
Do you know where to find stats like you wrote for the first shots in a service game?
Tennis Abstract: Match Charting Project Metadata

Click on the number of matches (f.e. 105 for Andy), then check "Point outcomes by rally length").
02-07-2017 12:34 PM
Long Bunruot
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

On a quick look, Nishikori/Cilic are mod-off hybrid, I would count them as off (in comparison with the other mods around them (Rafa/Nole), they spend less time behind the baseline and definitely more eager to end the point with a winner).

Thiem is definitely not an all court player, more like mod-def hybrid depending on the surface (for instance, he hit 91% of his shots from behind the baseline against Nishikori, clay but only 75% indoor against Raonic).

For Fed, Stan and definitely Chardy you should add (X). No brainer for the French and the other two have impressive placement on serve. (I did post Staniel's profiles (clay/grass) somewhere, ask some mod for the location of the stats thread).

Goffin is not defensive, more like mod. Especially if you put him in his own category, miniature tennis players.

Tsonga might need an (X). You should check tennis abstract, ATP Stats Leaderboard. There you have his avg ace rate in the last three seasons and with that you can check if there is any correlation between lower avg ace rate and %holds/results.

Sock is one of the most offensive players in that Mod category, Ferrer is definitely not mod. I would switch him with Agut, at least RBA can generate pace on forehand, often close to 80 mph avg.

These days Baghdatis is more like an mod-def hybrid, he trades a couple of shots and then he gets tired/bored and spams drop shots.

Troicki is definitely def (91% behind the baseline, indoor, hello?), JMDP is moderate and Mahut should be counted as offensive. S/V bot counted as mod, must be copy/paste mistake. And since he's relevant only indoor/grass (where he can defend to some extent) maybe you should squeeze him into the ALL category. In this case some input from smarter fellas (latso/leng jai/burrow/woj /rocketassist) would help, hopefully they find your thread.

Evans is more like mod-off hybrid, probably the less offensive player in his category. Coric is on his way to become mod, don't know if he is there yet. Definitely not the bore he used to be two years ago.

Monaco was debatable (when he was playing), Thompson is def (behind the baseline, no pace, net clearance 90+ cm on both wings), Zeballos is mod, definitely not offensive. Same for Chung, def not off and Dzumhur and Pavlasek should switch categories.

Nishioka is kinda pushy, maybe downgrade/upgrade to def, The Georgian superstar and Kuznetsov should have their own category. Lajovic is moderate (kinda def during the last AO). Kravchuk is kinda serve-dependent, unbeatable when clutch. Albot is just bad.
02-07-2017 11:29 AM
MWW
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo Ryan View Post
Yes thank you, that is what i meant.
Federer and Tsonga dont have many aces or serve winners but for example the great Roger has a incredible art to serve, even the 2nd serves are often not easy to reach for the opponent and he can make the winner with the next shot.
Do you know where to find stats like you wrote for the first shots in a service game?
It's not easy to find these particular stats, I don't think the ATP keeps a record of these. In some post match streams this information might appear as secondary stats to the primary stats (serving info, W/UE, break pts, return pts won) so if you watch the match you might see these pop up (they do show these on tennistv channel). But typically it is not a thoroughly cited stat and is not given quite as much attention but is still an important stat. Here one article discusses the stat in relation to a RR match at the World Tour Finals last season:

Brain Game: Murray Prevails With Short Rallies | ATP World Tour | Tennis
02-07-2017 10:48 AM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepe Imaz View Post
A good serve is a part of every game. However I'd say some players depend more on it than others at least on their own service games (so independent of return capabilities). Federer based on his career ace stats would be a serve oriented player. Both he and Tsonga heavily depend on the first serve. Not to say they cannot win without it, but their advantage on serve does decrease especially when playing good returners and baseline players. Tsonga in particular will struggle to hold if his serving percentage drops to 50% or below. This is to say that there is a larger gap between the damage they can do (and their opponent) when their first serve goes into play compared to the second serve delivery. Monfils is a more defensive type of player, though he has a good serve, the rest of his game doesn't largely depend on being able to hit it.

A large indicator if you like is % service points won in first 5 shots, 5-9 shots and 9+ shot rallies.
You'll see both Federer and Tsonga have heavy weighting to the first 5 shots category.
Contrast to Nishikori whose serve is relatively weaker, and will have greater weight towards the 5-9 and 9+ shot categories on their own service games.

Yes thank you, that is what i meant.
Federer and Tsonga dont have many aces or serve winners but for example the great Roger has a incredible art to serve, even the 2nd serves are often not easy to reach for the opponent and he can make the winner with the next shot.
Do you know where to find stats like you wrote for the first shots in a service game?
02-07-2017 10:18 AM
MWW
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo Ryan View Post
Yes, without a doubt! You have to figure out the best way to beat your opponent and changing the tactics to surprise is a good way for it!
But I mean in case of Sock or Sascha Zverev it is like every game they have an other style and we dont have to talk about Kyrgios.
I really like him a lot but he is wasting his enormous talent for playing tennis like his mood alouds him. If he dont care, it is a very baselined kind of tennis, if he is in a good mood he is very present on the court everywhere, sometimes even like a serve-volleyer.

And what do you say about my last question? Would you categorize Federer, Tsonga and Monfils as servers?
A good serve is a part of every game. However I'd say some players depend more on it than others at least on their own service games (so independent of return capabilities). Federer based on his career ace stats would be a serve oriented player. Both he and Tsonga heavily depend on the first serve. Not to say they cannot win without it, but their advantage on serve does decrease especially when playing good returners and baseline players. Tsonga in particular will struggle to hold if his serving percentage drops to 50% or below. This is to say that there is a larger gap between the damage they can do (and their opponent) when their first serve goes into play compared to the second serve delivery. Monfils is a more defensive type of player, though he has a good serve, the rest of his game doesn't largely depend on being able to hit it.

A large indicator if you like is % service points won in first 5 shots, 5-9 shots and 9+ shot rallies.
You'll see both Federer and Tsonga have heavy weighting to the first 5 shots category.
Contrast to Nishikori whose serve is relatively weaker, and will have greater weight towards the 5-9 and 9+ shot categories on their own service games.
02-07-2017 08:05 AM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepe Imaz View Post
personally I'd change RBA to at least mod rather than purely defensive. His play is very much FH oriented (see his win over Djokovic in Shanghai as a primary example).

The difficulty arises because you have to sometimes play depending on how your opponent does.
You gave Kyrgios an OFF rating. That may well be good and true for some situations given his serve setting up his FHs but then you watch him play Nishikori and he is being bossed around the court in most rallies. In their Madrid match last year, Nishikori hit over double the number of baseline winners to Kyrgios (I think it was 37-16). Berdych is also given OFF rating but there are times he cannot play that way because of his limited movement. Nishikori is probably a mix of OFF and MOD, he lacks the raw power that someone like Wawrinka has but his baseline position, ROS, timing and precision is very offensive and he tends to lead in the backhand winners category in general, contrast that to Nadal who tends to hit fewer direct winners and can spend more time behind the baseline. Troicki is more MOD than OFF and can turn to DEF. You're correct about Sock, when the FH flows.

Yes, without a doubt! You have to figure out the best way to beat your opponent and changing the tactics to surprise is a good way for it!
But I mean in case of Sock or Sascha Zverev it is like every game they have an other style and we dont have to talk about Kyrgios.
I really like him a lot but he is wasting his enormous talent for playing tennis like his mood alouds him. If he dont care, it is a very baselined kind of tennis, if he is in a good mood he is very present on the court everywhere, sometimes even like a serve-volleyer.

And what do you say about my last question? Would you categorize Federer, Tsonga and Monfils as servers?
02-06-2017 10:43 AM
MWW
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo Ryan View Post
Thanks a lot for your suggestions
It's true some players are more clearly to categorize than others. For example nobody would discuss a player like Ivo Karlovic or John Isner, their playing style is more than obvious.
But some players are making me headache, like Viktor Troicki or Jack Sock. Sometimes I have the feeling that they change their tactics in every match from a "Moderate Player" to an "Offensive Player". Or do I have a wrong impression of that?
And what is about the serves of Tsonga, Monfils or Roger...!? They also have a powerful serve, but would you say that their serve is a main part of their play?
personally I'd change RBA to at least mod rather than purely defensive. His play is very much FH oriented (see his win over Djokovic in Shanghai as a primary example).

The difficulty arises because you have to sometimes play depending on how your opponent does.
You gave Kyrgios an OFF rating. That may well be good and true for some situations given his serve setting up his FHs but then you watch him play Nishikori and he is being bossed around the court in most rallies. In their Madrid match last year, Nishikori hit over double the number of baseline winners to Kyrgios (I think it was 37-16). Berdych is also given OFF rating but there are times he cannot play that way because of his limited movement. Nishikori is probably a mix of OFF and MOD, he lacks the raw power that someone like Wawrinka has but his baseline position, ROS, timing and precision is very offensive and he tends to lead in the backhand winners category in general, contrast that to Nadal who tends to hit fewer direct winners and can spend more time behind the baseline. Troicki is more MOD than OFF and can turn to DEF. You're correct about Sock, when the FH flows.
02-06-2017 10:19 AM
Flo Ryan
Re: Current Top 100 by playing styles

Thanks a lot for your suggestions
It's true some players are more clearly to categorize than others. For example nobody would discuss a player like Ivo Karlovic or John Isner, their playing style is more than obvious.
But some players are making me headache, like Viktor Troicki or Jack Sock. Sometimes I have the feeling that they change their tactics in every match from a "Moderate Player" to an "Offensive Player". Or do I have a wrong impression of that?
And what is about the serves of Tsonga, Monfils or Roger...!? They also have a powerful serve, but would you say that their serve is a main part of their play?
02-06-2017 08:53 AM
AtomicSlice Great work. My only suggestion would be to change Jordan Thompson from Off to Def.
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