Tougher Conversion: Clay to Hard, or Hard to Clay? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Tougher Conversion: Clay to Hard, or Hard to Clay?

Johnny Groove
03-10-2007, 12:30 AM
Many players grow up on hard courts, many players grow up on clay courts. when they reach the highest level, they must inevitably play on the other. So the question is which is harder to convert to?

Myself, I think that going from hard to clay is harder. It seems that the good hard court players struggle on clay, whereas the clay courters have the ability to win major titles on hard.

RickDaStick
03-10-2007, 12:33 AM
Many players grow up on hard courts, many players grow up on clay courts. when they reach the highest level, they must inevitably play on the other. So the question is which is harder to convert to?

Myself, I think that going from hard to clay is harder. It seems that the good hard court players struggle on clay, whereas the clay courters have the ability to win major titles on hard.


I disagree. Most clay courters arent contenders for big titles on hard. For instance Coria and Gaudio dominated on clay but were never considered threats on faster courts. Very few clay courters out there have any chance for a major title on hard courts.

jayjay
03-10-2007, 12:42 AM
I disagree. Most clay courters arent contenders for big titles on hard. For instance Coria and Gaudio dominated on clay but were never considered threats on faster courts. Very few clay courters out there have any chance for a major title on hard courts.

It's not really up for debate in recent times at least, clay courters have done far better on faster surfaces than those who prefer hard courts have transitioned to clay.

The facts speak for themselves. You mention Coria for example, a guy who made the final of Miami Masters. Would we ever see Roddick or Ljubicic in the final of Rome? :lol:

Ferrero for example, a King of Clay, but can still go to the US Open final. Would we ever see Roddick in the final of the French? Obviously not.

Johnny Groove
03-10-2007, 12:44 AM
I disagree. Most clay courters arent contenders for big titles on hard. For instance Coria and Gaudio dominated on clay but were never considered threats on faster courts. Very few clay courters out there have any chance for a major title on hard courts.

Gaudio I'll give you. He cant really do much outside clay.

But Coria? Cincy QF in 03, IW QF in 04, Miami FINAL in 04, USO QF in 03, won Basel in 03, beating Ljubo en route, and he beat Moya indoors at the 03 TMC. USO QF in 05, 05 Beijing final, beating Tojo, not a bad hard court resume :shrug:

and what about Ferrero? or Guga? or Rafa?

Pfloyd
03-10-2007, 12:46 AM
Hard to Clay is a tougher transition, for the reasons mentioned above by jayjay.

It seems that the basic properties of clay are true in most, decent speed Hard Courts. A person growing up on clay can transition himslef to hardcourt, just as long as he remembers to try to finish points more quickly, and forget about the sliding.

Pure HC players on the other hand, have to get used to the sliding, which may be complicated. The real problem for HC players is that they are not patient enough to rally every time to win many consecutive points.

RickDaStick
03-10-2007, 12:59 AM
Gaudio I'll give you. He cant really do much outside clay.

But Coria? Cincy QF in 03, IW QF in 04, Miami FINAL in 04, USO QF in 03, won Basel in 03, beating Ljubo en route, and he beat Moya indoors at the 03 TMC. USO QF in 05, 05 Beijing final, beating Tojo, not a bad hard court resume :shrug:

and what about Ferrero? or Guga? or Rafa?

Those are some good results but Coria was never considered a threat to win a major title. Sure he had a lot of QF, and a SF and F here and there but i doubt many top players so him as a threat on hardcourts.

Johnny Groove
03-10-2007, 01:01 AM
Those are some good results but Coria was never considered a threat to win a major title. Sure he had a lot of QF, and a SF and F here and there but i doubt many top players so him as a threat on hardcourts.

ok, he had decent results on the hard courts. sure, he wasnt a fav. to win the title, but no one thought he'd lose first round.

When we talk about the hard courters, how many of them can boast an RG QF? or a Rome/MC/Hamburg Final?

RickDaStick
03-10-2007, 01:02 AM
ok, he had decent results on the hard courts. sure, he wasnt a fav. to win the title, but no one thought he'd lose first round.

When we talk about the hard courters, how many of them can boast an RG QF? or a Rome/MC/Hamburg Final?

Ljubo: RG SF, MC QF, Rome/Hamburg SF:)

Johnny Groove
03-10-2007, 01:04 AM
Ljubo: RG SF, MC QF, Rome/Hamburg SF:)

ok, one. Anyone else?

The point is that more clay courters are successful on hard as compared to harders on clay

RickDaStick
03-10-2007, 01:06 AM
ok, one. Anyone else?

The point is that more clay courters are successful on hard as compared to harders on clay


Ok you are probably right but i still feel its easier to turn a hard court player into a decent clay courter than it is to turn a clay court player into a decent hard court player.

jayjay
03-10-2007, 01:44 AM
Ok you are probably right but i still feel its easier to turn a hard court player into a decent clay courter than it is to turn a clay court player into a decent hard court player.

And you think this because....?

Oops, sorry. Didn't mean to hurt you. :)

Neely
03-10-2007, 01:51 AM
I have the opinion that it is easier from clay to hardcourt.

aramis
03-10-2007, 01:54 AM
It's hard to make a general rule, as it depends on the player's style and technique. Guys like Guga and Juan Carlos are naturally very aggressive players even on clay, and they tend to stay close to or on top of the baseline. These kinds of qualities are rewarded on hardcourts, as their results show. The passive clay courters who stand far behind the baseline and rely on pure grinding have trouble on the hardcourts, like Coria and Nadal, unless they drastically alter their clay games. But overall I would say it's still easier to make the transition from clay to hard because hardcourts don't require any special kind of movement like clay does. The sliding on clay is an ability that is acquired after many years of playing on the surface exclusively.

OddJob
03-10-2007, 02:14 AM
Way easier to go from Clay to Hard. It seems that hardcourts are getting slower and slower.

TeamID
03-10-2007, 02:28 AM
Roddick has a SF and 2 (I think) QF at rome.

Merton
03-10-2007, 02:34 AM
The difficulty is similar but the incentives for claycourt players to become more competitive on hard courts are higher since there are more ATP points to be gained on hard courts.

Action Jackson
03-10-2007, 07:13 AM
There has been over time a greater ratio of success for players whose best surface was clay to having better hardcourt results than vice versa.

The majority of the major events are on hardcourts and this provides a greater incentive for players who have their best results on clay to improve on hardcourts.

Kolya
03-10-2007, 08:01 AM
Clay to hard - Ferrero, Moya, Corretja and Guga

Hard to clay is much tougher.

General Suburbia
03-10-2007, 08:07 AM
Roddick has a SF and 2 (I think) QF at rome.
He's won Houston. :devil: :devil: :devil:

Jimnik
03-10-2007, 09:56 AM
In the end, it comes down to style of play. JCF grew up on hard courts yet no-one seems to know about it. He's just another Spanish dirt-baller who never made it on fast courts.

Agassi and Hewitt have done well on clay considering they probably never touched the surface until they turned pro.

Federer grew up on clay courts and became one of the greatest fast court players of all time. Same with many of the Croatian players, although Ivanisevic and Ancic seemed to struggle on American hard courts.

Kolya
03-10-2007, 10:59 AM
He's just another Spanish dirt-baller who never made it on fast courts.

Come on, Ferrero has done pretty good on the fast courts. 2003 US Open finalist, semi finalist at AO, 4th rounds at Wimbledon and final of Cincinatti last year.

CooCooCachoo
03-10-2007, 11:14 AM
Clay to hard, it's a complete adjustment for the knees. You have to become more aware of your body, as you are much more injury-prone on hard courts.

Action Jackson
03-10-2007, 11:16 AM
Clay to hard, it's a complete adjustment for the knees. You have to become more aware of your body, as you are much more injury-prone on hard courts.

Better not let Fed=ATPTourKilla see that.

Byrd
03-10-2007, 11:21 AM
try clay to grass.

Jimnik
03-10-2007, 11:30 AM
Come on, Ferrero has done pretty good on the fast courts. 2003 US Open finalist, semi finalist at AO, 4th rounds at Wimbledon and final of Cincinatti last year.
You don't need to convince me, mate. ;)

Action Jackson
04-04-2009, 10:32 AM
Interesting a MTF poll that makes sense.

FairWeatherFan
04-04-2009, 10:36 AM
Not sure why a two-year-old thread has been bumped, but it's quite obvious that not much conversion between clay and hard is needed these days.

Action Jackson
04-04-2009, 11:13 AM
If that's the case then Roddick should be making the semis finals of RG.

jonathancrane
04-04-2009, 11:21 AM
Clay to Hard

Certinfy
04-04-2009, 11:23 AM
I feel clay to hard, as potentially u have to up ur speed etc.

jmf07
04-04-2009, 04:09 PM
Hard to clay. But mugs like Montanes make going from clay to hard look impossible.

Johnny Groove
04-04-2009, 04:39 PM
The thing about clay courters on hard courts is that its very hit or miss.

You can have guys like Guga, Moya, Nadal, JCF, all great claycourters but have had decent results elsewhere.

Then you have some clay courters who are absolutely helpless on any other surface.

Burrow
04-04-2009, 04:41 PM
Depends who you are.

Action Jackson
08-04-2011, 01:24 AM
Hard to clay. But mugs like Montanes make going from clay to hard look impossible.

Even Montañes improved on hardcourt.

arm
08-04-2011, 01:37 AM
aren't clay courts similar to Miami and IW rather than to the US and Canadian courts?

EDIT: oh wait I understood the question wrong. :lol:

n8
08-04-2011, 01:39 AM
I have the opinion that it is easier from clay to hardcourt.

Me too. Moya is a good example. His first big result was on hard (Australian Open final 1997) despite growing up on clay.

romismak
08-04-2011, 01:56 AM
It doesn´t matter so much nowadays like it used to years ago. Only footwork is different, but other aspects like bounce or speed are pretty similar or little bit similar but not that much different like it used to be. So guys with good footwork should have 0 problems switching HC to clay or from clay to HC.

Clay Death
08-04-2011, 02:08 AM
The thing about clay courters on hard courts is that its very hit or miss.

You can have guys like Guga, Moya, Nadal, JCF, all great claycourters but have had decent results elsewhere.

Then you have some clay courters who are absolutely helpless on any other surface.

bullshitski.

there is no such thing as "clay courters" anymore. stop the madness of living in the past old sport.

stay on the subject. you are talking about the adjustment here.

the hardest adjustment is from clay to grass.

everything else doesnt require much of an adjustment period. they can pretty much play on all surfaces these days with grass being a bit of a harder adjustment for some as previously suggested. if anything, clay helps their game significantly and they go on to produce great results on hard courts as a result of that.

you saw the so called spanish clay courters take it to the americans in austin recently.

rocketassist
08-04-2011, 02:37 AM
Neither anymore. They're all the same bar the movement.

Topspindoctor
08-04-2011, 02:49 AM
Neither anymore. They're all the same bar the movement.

:superlol:

rocketassist
08-04-2011, 03:59 AM
:superlol:

How do you explain 'Mugray' the player you babble on and on about like a stuck Archers cassette tape making the semis of all four GS in one year (assuming the top 4 are back in the final four in a couple of weeks) then? He wouldn't be making RG semis in a diverse/competitive clay tour.

Topspindoctor
08-04-2011, 06:00 AM
How do you explain 'Mugray' the player you babble on and on about like a stuck Archers cassette tape making the semis of all four GS in one year (assuming the top 4 are back in the final four in a couple of weeks) then? He wouldn't be making RG semis in a diverse/competitive clay tour.

:rolleyes:

Have you seen Mugray's RG draw this year?

Nadull_tard
08-04-2011, 05:36 PM
There's no conversion issues since they are pretty much the same, or in some cases the hc events are even slower than claycourt ones (vide Miami).

The distinction of surfaces is a dead topic.

Filo V.
08-04-2011, 06:43 PM
There are specifics that make each transition similarily difficult.