ATP to downgrade Hamburg and Monte Carlo [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

ATP to downgrade Hamburg and Monte Carlo

buzzy
02-07-2007, 05:52 PM
According to Wertheim's latest, the ATP is set to make a major calendar revision. How do you all feel about this change? Will cutting out 2 of the Master's Series events help the players overscheduling problem? And are these the right 2 events to downgrade?

"• Look for the new ATP calendar to include eight Masters Series events: Indian Wells, Key Biscayne, Rome, Canada, Cincy, Paris, Madrid and China. (Hamburg and Monte Carlo get downgraded to economy class.) Players will be expected to play "eight of eight", though, realistically, six or seven will be the norm. The year-end Masters will be held in London. Details to come."

Link to the complete text:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_wertheim/02/06/mailbag/2.html

Loremaster
02-07-2007, 05:54 PM
stupid !!

I agree to remove Hamburg , but why Monte Carlo ?? very stupid , I rather prefer making TMS before Wimby.

sykotique
02-07-2007, 05:56 PM
You know, they could really upgrade a grass tournament to Masters Series level. It can't be that hard to make Halle or Queens mandatory. The top players go there to prepare for Wimbledon anyway.


Don't agree with them scrapping Monte Carlo though. It's a big draw, perhaps only outstripped by Rome and Roland Garros on that particular surface.

Action Jackson
02-07-2007, 05:56 PM
This is just hearsay at the moment? With Mr. Disney nothing surprises.

He keeps the worst organised of the clay events in Rome as a TMS event and downgrades Monte Carlo and Hamburg, that is funny.

Might as well give Dubai TMS status.

keqtqiadv
02-07-2007, 05:57 PM
:cuckoo: :retard:

sykotique
02-07-2007, 05:57 PM
stupid !!

I agree to remove Hamburg , but why Monte Carlo ?? very stupid , I rather prefer making TMS before Wimby.

Wow. We agree. Someone take a picture, this is a Kodak moment.

Jimnik
02-07-2007, 05:58 PM
This isn't really going to happen, is it?

Loremaster
02-07-2007, 05:59 PM
You know, they could really upgrade a grass tournament to Masters Series level. It can't be that hard to make Halle or Queens mandatory. The top players go there to prepare for Wimbledon anyway.


Don't agree with them scrapping Monte Carlo though. It's a big draw, perhaps only outstripped by Rome and Roland Garros on that particular surface.

Yeah I agree , Hamburg and PAris should be moved/removed and TMS on grass I am not sure about Halle but Quenns is such a big complex which should asily host TMS

buzzy
02-07-2007, 06:00 PM
This is just hearsay at the moment? .

Well, you may not always agree with Wertheim's opinions...but...he does generally have good inside info when it comes to stuff like this.
So we just have to wait for his "details to come".

Action Jackson
02-07-2007, 06:02 PM
Well, you may not always agree with Wertheim's opinions...but...he does generally have good inside info when it comes to stuff like this.
So we just have to wait for his "details to come".

Wertheim campaigned for best of 3 sets at Slams and we know where that's going.

I don't believe anything about a calendar restructure until it's done. They have talked like this when Borg was winning Wimbledon and little has changed since.

Loremaster
02-07-2007, 06:04 PM
Wow. We agree. Someone take a picture, this is a Kodak moment.

;)

scoobs
02-07-2007, 06:06 PM
We'll see. Hamburg I'm not so fussed about but I doubt Monte Carlo will wear it and there's no need to take 2 clay TMS events away and yet leave Canada and Cincy intact.

I'll believe it when I see it.

*Ljubica*
02-07-2007, 06:07 PM
Oh my :rolleyes: I just hope it isn't true. Maybe Hamburg, but not Monte Carlo - it has such tradition there.

Deboogle!.
02-07-2007, 06:11 PM
I'm missing what the really huge deal is here. Especially since it's just rumor status at this point. We know the schedule needs to change, and we know it's all about money and stuff, so I can't say I'm either surprised or upset about this :shrug:

Whistleway
02-07-2007, 06:12 PM
Wow. 4 of the 8 are in US.. huh.

*Ljubica*
02-07-2007, 06:16 PM
Wow. 4 of the 8 are in US.. huh.

:rolleyes: Does that surprise you?

Deboogle!.
02-07-2007, 06:16 PM
Wow. 4 of the 8 are in US.. huh.That'll be news to Canada :D

Winston's Human
02-07-2007, 06:17 PM
Wow. 4 of the 8 are in US.. huh.

How about 3 of 8.

Canadians generally do not consider themselves part of the US.

Action Jackson
02-07-2007, 06:18 PM
Yes, having the base of the European base of the ATP in Monaco, they are really going to appreciate one of the oldest and best run events to be downgraded.

Last time I looked Canada was not part of the USA.

yakuzaninja
02-07-2007, 06:20 PM
Monte Carlo is arguably my fave AMS. Clay isn't my fave surface, but I like the scenery and the look of the event. It should stay.

Hamburg has been getting poor crowds cos Federer and Nadal don't play. I assume they will this year because of the 3 set finals.

And yes if you said to a Canadian they were American they would probably kick you in the balls.

Beforehand
02-07-2007, 06:24 PM
Monte Carlo is the TMS with the surface most close to Roland Garros, too, isn't it?

And sorry, but 8 Masters Series events instead of 9 as a major revision is stupid as shit too.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 06:36 PM
I don't get why they don't keep 9, downgrade Hamburg, give one to China if they feel they must (That deals with the back-to-back TMS in Rome and Hamburg issue) and then FFS put a week in between Canada and Cincy.

Problem solved and they can demand attendance at 8 out of 9.

Beforehand
02-07-2007, 06:38 PM
I don't get why they don't keep 9, downgrade Hamburg, give one to China if they feel they must (That deals with the back-to-back TMS in Rome and Hamburg issue) and then FFS put a week in between Canada and Cincy.

Problem solved and they can demand attendance at 8 out of 9.
I get why.

It makes sense.

Deboogle!.
02-07-2007, 06:41 PM
I don't get why they don't keep 9, downgrade Hamburg, give one to China if they feel they must (That deals with the back-to-back TMS in Rome and Hamburg issue) and then FFS put a week in between Canada and Cincy.

Problem solved and they can demand attendance at 8 out of 9.when in doubt, assume it's b/c of $$$$$$$$$

Burrow
02-07-2007, 06:43 PM
I think its the correct decision.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 06:45 PM
That'll be news to Canada :D

Not very welcome news either, I'd wager :)

Rogiman
02-07-2007, 06:46 PM
Cincy should have been cancelled first, then Hamburg, then Madrid.

LoveFifteen
02-07-2007, 06:47 PM
We'll see. Hamburg I'm not so fussed about but I doubt Monte Carlo will wear it and there's no need to take 2 clay TMS events away and yet leave Canada and Cincy intact.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree completely. They should get rid of one clay TMS, but not two. They should also get rid of CINCY one of the TMS events before the US Open.

El Legenda
02-07-2007, 06:47 PM
Wow. 4 of the 8 are in US.. huh.

3 and maybe because there is a lot of money in US for tennis, unlike other countries

DrJules
02-07-2007, 06:48 PM
Yes, having the base of the European base of the ATP in Monaco, they are really going to appreciate one of the oldest and best run events to be downgraded.

Last time I looked Canada was not part of the USA.

Agreed.

However, it is politically and economically dominated by the USA and acts like a USA colony. USA says jump and Canada says how high.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

nobama
02-07-2007, 06:50 PM
when in doubt, assume it's b/c of $$$$$$$$$Well if it was all about $$ then for sure there would be a TMS in Dubai. :lol:

Saumon
02-07-2007, 06:53 PM
3 and maybe because there is a lot of money in US for tennis, unlike other countries

I don't think there's no money in MC ;)

FedererGrandSlam
02-07-2007, 06:54 PM
Oh my :rolleyes: I just hope it isn't true. Maybe Hamburg, but not Monte Carlo - it has such tradition there.
And Hamburg doesn't?

Having one clay event and seven hardcourt/indoors is ridiculous. Where's the variety?

Deboogle!.
02-07-2007, 06:56 PM
I don't think there's no money in MC ;)Just because Monaco has a lot of money doesn't mean the tournament is willing to pay the ATP to keep the Masters status, though...

GlennMirnyi
02-07-2007, 07:00 PM
However, it is politically and economically dominated by the USA and acts like a USA colony. USA says jump and Canada says how high.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As if Britain acted much differently nowadays... :rolleyes:


A TMS in China? Stupid. China has no tradition when it comes to tennis. It's already ridiculous that the TMC is there...

Madrid, the joke TMS should go first.

Action Jackson
02-07-2007, 07:03 PM
Just because Monaco has a lot of money doesn't mean the tournament is willing to pay the ATP to keep the Masters status, though...

Prince Rainier invested a lot of money into the event and now Albert is doing the same,

They are very serious about their sporting events in Monaco and a downgrade would be a big insult to them, especially when they have the facilities.

superhoops
02-07-2007, 07:03 PM
Two less clay court MS and more hard Court MS, sounds good to me. Shame Queens couldn't be added though but then the prices would probably be much higher than they are now. Atleast take out RR from Queens.

buzzy
02-07-2007, 07:05 PM
Keeping the 4 in North America is logical. Geographically, the distance between the 4 sites is much greater than that between the existing events in Europe. Therefore the tournaments draw from 4 distinct parts of the continent. You have Indian Wells in the west. Key Biscayne in the southeast. Cincy in the midwest. And Toronto/Montreal drawing from Canada and the northeast US. That is why they will all continue to be big money events. But, it's a rare fan who can attend multiple events because of the great distances between them. But I see, just from this board, many fans who are in a position to attend multiple European masters events. So if you are going to cut somewhere, it makes sense to cut where you won't deprive a huge fan base of their only big event. Even the smaller event options are much fewer in North America than in Europe as it is. And note also that he says the year-end masters will move to London which already has a Slam.

Now if someone in South America wanted to argue that they should have one of the masters and could provide a legitimate site, I think they'd deserve a shot at it as much as China.

bavaria100
02-07-2007, 07:07 PM
Monte Carlo is arguably my fave AMS. Clay isn't my fave surface, but I like the scenery and the look of the event. It should stay.

Hamburg has been getting poor crowds cos Federer and Nadal don't play. I assume they will this year because of the 3 set finals.

And yes if you said to a Canadian they were American they would probably kick you in the balls.

What are you talking about? Hamburg had more that 100000 spectators last year. Is that a poor number in your eyes?

Yappa
02-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Hamburg has a long tradition and I live in that city, but if it had to abandon it's Masters Series status, then so be it. Just take a look at the Hamburg site. It's a joke. And there are more issues. Nobody seems to care about it. Yeah, I know that I am only talking as a disappointed Tennis fan.

Germany without any Masters Series event would indeed be something which I don't want to see, so if Hamburg had to go, then some other tourney would need to step in.

What a development. A few years ago Germany had two Super 9 events plus the year end tourney in Frankfurt and the Grandslam Cup in Munich.

You know what? I think, that Hamburg will stay a Masters Series event, no matter what.

bavaria100
02-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Oh my :rolleyes: I just hope it isn't true. Maybe Hamburg, but not Monte Carlo - it has such tradition there.

Hamburg has no tradition? That's news to me. As far as I remember, the tourney is over 100 years old.

Action Jackson
02-07-2007, 07:11 PM
This is alarmist and as I said before. There is a whole lot of talk, but I don't think there will be much action.

rexman
02-07-2007, 07:12 PM
So we'll have 6 hard court TMS, 1 clay and no grass. Great.

*Ljubica*
02-07-2007, 07:14 PM
Hamburg has no tradition? That's news to me. As far as I remember, the tourney is over 100 years old.

Of course it has some tradition. And on a personal note, I love Hamburg, and go every year. It is a great, well-organised and enjoyable tournament. However, I just think Monaco has more tradition though - just my opinion. Personally, if I had my choice, I would keep Hamburg and get rid of Cinci or somewhere, but that isn't going to happen :shrug:

joeb_uk
02-07-2007, 07:18 PM
Pathetic, Monte Carlo seems to be the biggest and best claycourt tournament outside of RG. Hamburg I have to admit, is often a shambles (but why the hell they are even considering Monte Carlo).

bavaria100
02-07-2007, 07:18 PM
Hamburg has a long tradition and I live in that city, but if it had to abandon it's Masters Series status, then so be it. Just take a look at the Hamburg site. It's a joke. And there are more issues. Nobody seems to care about it.

Germany without any Masters Series event would indeed be something which I don't want to see, so if Hamburg had to go, then some other tourney would need to step in.

What a development. A few years ago Germany had two Super 9 events plus the year end tourney in Frankfurt and the Grandslam Cup in Munich.

Yes, it's really a shame that the DTB doesn't renovate the facility. The interest in Tennis has taken a nosedive after the retirements of Becker, Graf, Stich and Huber. Germany has lost such a huge number of tournaments in the last 8 years, not only on the men's side. We have also lost the woman's tournaments in Hamburg, Leipzig and Hannover. Quatar has the rights to the tournament in Berlin. That's what happens when the TV-channels stop supporting a certain sport, in this case Tennis.

stebs
02-07-2007, 07:19 PM
I'm no genius and I don't fancy trying to make a revised calendar myslef but as far as I'm concerned it would be good with:

Standard 4 slams and TMC moving around the world.

7 AMS:

2 Indoor
2 Outdoor hard
2 Clay
1 Grass

2 in USA (Miami for sure)
1 in Asia (China/Japan)
1 in Germany
1 more in Europe (Rome/MC/Russia)
1 in South America (Buenos Aires)

Then one more in another place (Canada/Europe/Australia)

Yappa
02-07-2007, 07:22 PM
Of course it has some tradition. And on a personal note, I love Hamburg, and go every year. It is a great, well-organised and enjoyable tournament.

It has tradition. "Some" sounds like a 10 year tourney, which it isn't.

Regarding the "well-organised". Depends what you're talking about. Not being able to have "not before times" TV coverage while other tourneys can is one point, another one would be the lack of stats in the live scoreboard which is pretty embarassing for a Masters Series event.


However, I just think Monaco has more tradition though - just my opinion. Personally, if I had my choice, I would keep Hamburg and get rid of Cinci or somewhere, but that isn't going to happen :shrug:

Is tradition really about opinion or about how old a tourney is?

DrJules
02-07-2007, 07:25 PM
I cannot believe they would downgrade Monte Carlo. I expect the players enjoy it, it attacts top quality draws and has a great location.

In many ways Hamburg probably should be downgraded. It seems to suffer a lot of late withdrawls, rain and cold weather, and after Monte Carlo and Rome players seem exhausted.

buzzy
02-07-2007, 07:30 PM
I cannot believe they would downgrade Monte Carlo. I expect the players enjoy it, it attacts top quality draws and has a great location.

Maybe they are hoping that, since the players like it, many of the top names will continue to come even if it is not a master series event.

Black Adam
02-07-2007, 07:38 PM
:bounce: TMC is in London!!! :yeah: :banana:
Hamburg has no tradition? That's news to me. As far as I remember, the tourney is over 100 years old.

They can't take down Monte Carlo! It's a traditional Tournament; How many FO winners has it produced. Hambourg is minor in importance compared to Monte Carlo. It just like the second FO. It's what Miami is to USO.

Anyways how do the ranking and points work? Will they reduce the points Robredo and Nadal have to defend to only 50?

stebs
02-07-2007, 07:42 PM
It's what Miami is to USO.

Disagree. Miami is not a representation of the USO. It is too far removed as far as time goes and the surfaces don't play the same. Miami is much slower, as near to AO as USO.

Black Adam
02-07-2007, 07:47 PM
Disagree. Miami is not a representation of the USO. It is too far removed as far as time goes and the surfaces don't play the same. Miami is much slower, as near to AO as USO.
I meant in importance. Miami is even refered to as the 5th slam.
In the USA, Miami is second in importance to USO.
In France, Monte Carlo is second in importance to FO.

It would have been better to take down Paris Bercy and add a Grass TMS.

buzzy
02-07-2007, 07:48 PM
:bounce: TMC is in London!!! :yeah: :banana:

Anyways how do the ranking and points work? Will they reduce the points Robredo and Nadal have to defend to only 50?

:lol: Don't get too excited about that TMC in London just yet. It is still committed to China for at least another couple of years I think.

And that is an interesting question about the ranking points. I don't see how they can change what the previous winners have to defend since those points are what the player's current ranking is based on. So it would seem that a person could repeat as winner and still drop in the rankings the first year that the new lower points are in use.

kobulingam
02-07-2007, 07:52 PM
Monte Carlo is the TMS with the surface most close to Roland Garros, too, isn't it?

And sorry, but 8 Masters Series events instead of 9 as a major revision is stupid as shit too.

Yes, compared to Rome/Hamburg.

Hamburg is slower than RG, Rome is faster (which is why Sampras won it :p ), while MC is somewhere in between (and similar to RG).

kobulingam
02-07-2007, 08:04 PM
I personally want to see IW's, and Paris' TMS status to be removed. I then want to see Hamburg clay replaced by another TMS in Germany (can they upgrade Halle to make it TMS feasible)?

Then I want RG to be pushed earlier before the TMS grass tourney in Germany. So after RG there will be 2 extra weeks, where the german TMS grass tourney can happen (and not overlap with Queen's).

If Germany can't support one, I think Queen's should be upgraded to TMS status. I still think RG should be pushed earlier allowing a longer grass court season pre-wimbledon.

Next, I think Cincy should be downgraded to simply a US Open series event. Thus leaving TMS Canada as the sole TMS even in the US Open series.

Which is fine, US Open series will have several small events, a TMS event and a Grand Slam. US Open series doesn't suffer.

Now since IW was removed, push Miami earlier (a week earlier than IW starts now) and allow for the clay season to start earlier. Then add a clay TMS in South America 2 weeks after Miami.

So we'd have 3 TMS clay tournies, South America, Monte Carlo, Rome.

And never, ever remove Rome. It's the 5th grand slam (maybe tied with Miami?).

dorkino
02-07-2007, 08:05 PM
If this happens ,then It 'll be very very stupid. Monte carlo is fun , Hamburg needs a shift or so. If they really want to downgrade something then let it be Cinnci. :sad:

kobulingam
02-07-2007, 08:07 PM
If this happens ,then It 'll be very very stupid. Monte carlo is fun , Hamburg needs a shift or so. If they really want to downgrade something then let it be Cinnci. :sad:

Cincy, Paris, IW downgraded. Hamburg moved to different time, or replaced by another German (preferrably grass) TMS.

Germany, the most important country in Europe economically (with the largest population too) requires AT LEAST 1 big event. It doesn't make business sense for Germany, which can probably hold several big events because of the size of it's population/economy, to have no big events. $$$$GERMANY$$$$$$

dorkino
02-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Posted by Kobulingam
Cincy, Paris, IW downgraded. Hamburg moved to different time, or replaced by another German (preferrably grass) TMS.

Germany, the most important country in Europe economically (with the largest population too) requires AT LEAST 1 big event. It doesn't make business sense for Germany, which can probably hold several big events because of the size of it's population/economy, to have no big events. $$$$GERMANY$$$$$$

Hamburg and Paris happen to have very bad timings. I guess they need shifting.

Regardless of $$$$$$$, i agree Germany deserves one big event , And in my humble opinion, South America needs one for its contributing players. Vamos!!:)

Mr Etienns, PLZ OPEN Ur EARS & try to listen to some people interested in the game. :banghead:

Adler
02-07-2007, 08:19 PM
I can just repeat what I have written here some time ago. There should be 10 instead of the present 9 TMS events, all of them 1-week long and they should be held in as follows:

outdoor hard: Indian Wells, Miami
clay: Buenos Aires, Barcelona, Monte Carlo
grass: London
outdoor hard: Montreal/Toronto, Cincinnati
indoor hard: Stuttgart, Beijing

of course that would require some changes in the calendar concerning RG and Wimbledon, but those won't be big

Horatio Caine
02-07-2007, 08:20 PM
Get rid of Hamburg yes; but Monte C, no. :help:

...and where is the long - overdue grass TMS? :rolleyes: :bs:

Horatio Caine
02-07-2007, 08:21 PM
Also, TMC was so much better when it moved locations every year...

Black Adam
02-07-2007, 08:22 PM
I can just repeat what I have written here some time ago. There should be 10 instead of the present 9 TMS events, all of them 1-week long and they should be held in as follows:

outdoor hard: Indian Wells, Miami
clay: Buenos Aires, Barcelona, Monte Carlo
grass: London
outdoor hard: Montreal/Toronto, Cincinnati
indoor hard: Stuttgart, Beijing

of course that would require some changes in the calendar concerning RG and Wimbledon, but those won't be big
Doing the opposite of what everybody want to prevent, hein?
You want to increase injuries and more withdrawals instead of solving the problem we have.

Adler
02-07-2007, 08:25 PM
Doing the opposite of what everybody want to prevent, hein?
You want to increase injuries and more withdrawals instead of solving the problem we have.
Well, that's why I've written that IW and Miami should NOT be "small slams". Generally, the ATP calendar should be more like Formula 1 calendar, with a bunch of big events and smaller amount of MM events, although I realise some of you think that would mean a small revolution

Horatio Caine
02-07-2007, 08:27 PM
Doing the opposite of what everybody want to prevent, hein?
You want to increase injuries and more withdrawals instead of solving the problem we have.

We could solve the injury crisis by capping a player's number of tournaments at 23. 4 GS + 9 TMS + 5 optionals + 5 other attempts.

Jimnik
02-07-2007, 08:37 PM
It's fine downgrading Hamburg in its present form. But I'm going to repeat what I've said many times.

There still needs to be one TMS in Germany and at least one on grass. So why not make Germany's TMS a grass event? One extra week in between Queens/Halle and Nottingham/s-Hertogenbosch. Perfect.

We've killed two birds with one stone.

RickDaStick
02-07-2007, 08:40 PM
very bad news for clay court specialists such as Nadal.

zicofirol
02-07-2007, 08:45 PM
dumb to remove monte carlo and why give china a masters event, fuck china... I agree a grass TMS is needed, paris TMS would be better to remove than monte carlo...

Adler
02-07-2007, 08:50 PM
why give china a masters event
cause it's a great market for tennis

CooCooCachoo
02-07-2007, 09:11 PM
Let them get rid of the US ones :cuckoo: Tennis is not popular there, so it is not a financially sound investment either. Miami has had financial problems, and I am sure it's not the only one.

Bad Religion
02-07-2007, 09:31 PM
Why in China?

They don´t deserve a Masters Series tournament . Damn



It's unfair for a country with tradition in tennis like Germany this stupid decision .

Beforehand
02-07-2007, 09:36 PM
Yes, compared to Rome/Hamburg.

Hamburg is slower than RG, Rome is faster (which is why Sampras won it :p ), while MC is somewhere in between (and similar to RG).
The gulf is pretty big, too, isn't it? Being in America, I can't really easily get much coverage of the three, but I feel like Monte Carlo always seems really like a mini-Roland Garros.

When I watched highlights from Hamburg 2005, the court was almost apallingly slow. I remember having expected a really slow court, but even being like "How can you play on this?" And Rome last year...I'm a Federer fan who wants to give him lots of credit for the match he played there against Nadal, but they were smacking winners like a hardcourt with a decent speed.

Clara Bow
02-07-2007, 09:38 PM
So there will only be one clay Masters now? 4 outdoor hard (slower and faster) and 3 indoor? How is this any better? And still no grass....

I'm missing what the really huge deal is here.

I think the huge deal is that they are thinking of getting rid of one of the most traditional and widely liked tennis tournaments while still not really fixing other issues. A lot of people have strong feelings about Monte Carlo. Personaly- I think it would be a big shame to knock down Monte Carlo.

*julie*
02-07-2007, 09:43 PM
dumb to remove monte carlo and why give china a masters event, fuck china... I agree a grass TMS is needed, paris TMS would be better to remove than monte carlo...

I agree. I have been to both tournaments and there is no possible comparison. Monte Carlo is much better.
They should give to Germany a grass MS and remove Paris Bercy.
Paris already has Roland Garros... and is the only city to host 1 GS and 1 MS.

CooCooCachoo
02-07-2007, 09:44 PM
Why in China?

They don´t deserve a Masters Series tournament . Damn



It's unfair for a country with tradition in tennis like Germany this stupid decision .

So you are saying Sweden should have a TMS? Cause they have a tradition in tennis.

Having one such event in China is great. China is the potential growth market for tennis, so it only makes sense.

Pfloyd
02-07-2007, 09:46 PM
Only 1 clay TMS?

Clay is arguably a more popular surface that hardcourt, yet they are going to downgrade 2 clay master series?

Wow, if this does happen, fuck Mr. Disney.

Lee
02-07-2007, 09:49 PM
Agreed.

However, it is politically and economically dominated by the USA and acts like a USA colony. USA says jump and Canada says how high.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Now that's really insulting. ;)

Last I check, it's British Prime Minister, not Canadian Prime Minister, who supports the War in Iraq.

And when AMS Canada is held in Montreal, the official language is not even English. :p

Fedex
02-07-2007, 09:51 PM
This is just hearsay at the moment? With Mr. Disney nothing surprises.

He keeps the worst organised of the clay events in Rome as a TMS event and downgrades Monte Carlo and Hamburg, that is funny.

Might as well give Dubai TMS status.
It is :bs: Disney can only be rivaled by Bud Selig for worst executive in professional sports.

jazar
02-07-2007, 09:52 PM
hamburg i can understand, but monte carlo, never

sploush
02-07-2007, 09:55 PM
Agreed.

However, it is politically and economically dominated by the USA and acts like a USA colony. USA says jump and Canada says how high.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

funny you should say that !!
in recent turn of events a british person should be the last to be critical of this.

superhoops
02-07-2007, 09:58 PM
At the end of the first year with these events don't expect Nadal to be in the top 5.

kobulingam
02-07-2007, 09:59 PM
The gulf is pretty big, too, isn't it? Being in America, I can't really easily get much coverage of the three, but I feel like Monte Carlo always seems really like a mini-Roland Garros.

When I watched highlights from Hamburg 2005, the court was almost apallingly slow. I remember having expected a really slow court, but even being like "How can you play on this?" And Rome last year...I'm a Federer fan who wants to give him lots of credit for the match he played there against Nadal, but they were smacking winners like a hardcourt with a decent speed.


Yes Rome is faster for sure. This is why Federer basically won the match (should have). This year he should be able to compete even at RG speed clay, but last year after Rome I felt the RG clay would favour Nadal since Fed was only EQUAL to Nadal on the faster Rome.

After the RG final he said in interviews that he didn't attack more like at Rome because it was slower at RG.

Federer does better on faster clay and on very slow clay like Hamburg, but MC/RG speed is just the right combination to disturb him. On fast clay he can attack and hit winners like hardcourts. On very slow clay, he knows what to expect and has a lot of time to make his shots. And also he commits more to patient and topspin heavy game. On average speed clay he kind of gets brain cramps, doesn't know when to attack or when to be patient.

Regenbogen
02-07-2007, 09:59 PM
Hamburg, okay, but Monte Carlo? And I think if they're downgrading anything it ought to be Paris.

ezekiel
02-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Agreed.

However, it is politically and economically dominated by the USA and acts like a USA colony. USA says jump and Canada says how high.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
OT:
Canada is independent enough to not engage in american military adventures as opposed to him. that's all I need to say about that
http://www.thewebisode.com/blog/uploaded_images/blair-704680.jpg

Sommarsverige
02-07-2007, 10:06 PM
I am sure that a lot of things will happen until there will be made a final decision on this...
From my point of view I really hope both tournaments will stay like they are: as I live in Hamburg I will always support this tournament and as I went there every year since 1990, I also know how many things have changed positively in this tournament and right now Hamburg is definitely one of my favourirte tournaments, seen from the priceces, the possibilities of watching matches and practice and just the whole surrounding.
Of course the weather could be better sometimes, but last year in Paris it also rained a lot, so this can change from year to year.

Concerning Monte Carlo I also hope it will stay a TMS. Also a very nice tournament and the venue is one of the best on the whole tour, so for me they could downgrade Cincinnati or one of the Indian Wells/Key Biscaine events!

guga2120
02-07-2007, 10:17 PM
Lets just hope they don't do this, why the clay??

And Monte Carlo:confused: , That is the best master series tournament out of all of them.

*Ljubica*
02-07-2007, 10:39 PM
OT:
Canada is independent enough to not engage in american military adventures as opposed to him. that's all I need to say about that
http://www.thewebisode.com/blog/uploaded_images/blair-704680.jpg

Don't want to get political here - but please, please PLEASE don't assume that all Brits support Blair, or the ghastly war in Iraq. We don't :sad: Thanks.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 10:43 PM
Don't want to get political here - but please, please PLEASE don't assume that all Brits support Blair, or the ghastly war in Iraq. We don't :sad: Thanks.

Hear hear. Well said.

DrJules
02-07-2007, 10:53 PM
Now that's really insulting. ;)

Last I check, it's British Prime Minister, not Canadian Prime Minister, who supports the War in Iraq.

And when AMS Canada is held in Montreal, the official language is not even English. :p

Oh I forgot to tell you.

British Prime Ministers are appointed by the US President and swear an Oath of Allegiance that he/she will only do what the US president tells him/her to do.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Adler
02-07-2007, 10:55 PM
damn. but someone's elected Blair and his party, no? :)

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 10:56 PM
Concerning Monte Carlo I also hope it will stay a TMS. Also a very nice tournament and the venue is one of the best on the whole tour, so for me they could downgrade Cincinnati or one of the Indian Wells/Key Biscaine events!

Cincinnati is a very historical tournament, so Canada is a more likely contender for a downgrade.

Indian Wells has always failed to get me excited.

BgStallion
02-07-2007, 10:57 PM
So that makes 7 tms on hard court and 1 on clay? Why not remove all of them while they're at it. I hope that this information is wrong :)

dorkino
02-07-2007, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Kobulingam
Yes Rome is faster for sure. This is why Federer basically won the match (should have).

PLEAZE , DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER for the endless MTF's debate again.


Posted by Rosie
Don't want to get political here - but please, please PLEASE don't assume that all Brits support Blair, or the ghastly war in Iraq. We don't :sad: Thanks.
This is surely and "fortunately" known and i just guess that post was made "in response". That being said, i drop off topic political affairs in GM.:o

zicofirol
02-07-2007, 10:58 PM
Only 1 clay TMS?

Clay is arguably a more popular surface that hardcourt, yet they are going to downgrade 2 clay master series?

Wow, if this does happen, fuck Mr. Disney.

hardcourt is more popular, its more popular in asia, australia, north america and some countries in Europe. Clay only has south america and some european countries.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 10:58 PM
damn. but someone's elected Blair and his party, no? :)

Only 23% of the electorate, as a matter of fact.

Let's not get onto politics, it's not an appropriate topic for this thread anyway

DrJules
02-07-2007, 11:00 PM
hardcourt is more popular, its more popular in asia, australia, north america and some countries in Europe. Clay only has south america and some european countries.

Factually true.

Certainly in new markets in Asia.

DrJules
02-07-2007, 11:04 PM
Cincinnati is a very historical tournament, so Canada is a more likely contender for a downgrade.

Indian Wells has always failed to get me excited.

The flaw in this proposal is that Canada only has 1 master series/grand slam event. If they are downgrading it probably should happen in countries currently holding more than 1 master series/grand slam events.

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 11:05 PM
Only 23% of the electorate, as a matter of fact.

Let's not get onto politics, it's not an appropriate topic for this thread anyway

And Blair is on the way out, anyway.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 11:06 PM
And Blair is on the way out, anyway.
Not soon enough.

zicofirol
02-07-2007, 11:06 PM
actually indian wells seems to not attract many fans, that is another that should be cut before MC.

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 11:06 PM
The flaw in this proposal is that Canada only has 1 master series/grand slam event. If they are downgrading it probably should happen in countries currently holding more than 1 master series/grand slam events.

So does Germany, but something needs to go.

What if they made some events non-Masters, but kept the points the same?

scoobs
02-07-2007, 11:06 PM
I know what we'll do!

Since there's no one solution that will suit everyone, I propose we let them make their changes, whatever they may be, and bitch endlessly about it afterwards. :)

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 11:10 PM
I know what we'll do!

Since there's no one solution that will suit everyone, I propose we let them make their changes, whatever they may be, and bitch endlessly about it afterwards. :)

I think that should work. Most MTFicans seem to like that system.

DrJules
02-07-2007, 11:13 PM
I know what we'll do!

Since there's no one solution that will suit everyone, I propose we let them make their changes, whatever they may be, and bitch endlessly about it afterwards. :)

My feeling is that of the 9 master series events if 1 event was going to be dropped Hamburg would probably be the most acceptable to most people. Monte Carlo is a totally different matter and is probably one of the least acceptable to be dropped

Lee
02-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Cincinnati is a very historical tournament, so Canada is a more likely contender for a downgrade.

Indian Wells has always failed to get me excited.

Sorry, but the Canada tournament is one of the oldest, over 100 years.

Adler
02-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Only 23% of the electorate, as a matter of fact.
In my country the winning party gained 10%, so it's not that bad

I don't want to bitch endlessly about the calendar. I'm a person who doesn't have time to watch tennis often, so the format with a couple of big events a year suits me

Merton
02-07-2007, 11:17 PM
It is all rumors at this point, I doubt that this will appear as a proposal as it is as a rumor.

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 11:18 PM
Sorry, but the Canada tournament is one of the oldest, over 100 years.

You're right. They both go back to the 19th century. Thanks for that tip.:wavey:

Lee
02-07-2007, 11:19 PM
This is surely and "fortunately" known and i just guess that post was made "in response". That being said, i drop off topic political affairs in GM.:o

That's true. It's unfortunate someone made a very bad joke/terrible stereotyping that required response.

dorkino
02-07-2007, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Uglyamerican
And Blair is on the way out, anyway
Too late :shrug: :tape:

Originally posted by Adler
In my country the winning party gained 10%, so it's not that bad
Let's face it buddies. We're happily enjoying the world of DEMOCRACY. :yeah:
and i swear this 'll be my last political opinion in this thread :o


Originally posted by Scoobsuk
I know what we'll do!

Since there's no one solution that will suit everyone, I propose we let them make their changes, whatever they may be, and bitch endlessly about it afterwards
I guess this is how it goes. But thinking it over, Can't these people at least make a decent vote about what tourney should be eliminated,downgraded or whatever. Why should not players or fans participate in this??? :fiery:

NicoFan
02-07-2007, 11:29 PM
I know what we'll do!

Since there's no one solution that will suit everyone, I propose we let them make their changes, whatever they may be, and bitch endlessly about it afterwards. :)

No use bitching about it now or when they make the changes.

As long as I've watched tennis, the powers who have run the sport have treated the fans like shit. They don't care about our opinion...never have, don't now, never will. Period.

scoobs
02-07-2007, 11:31 PM
Correct - it's nothing to do with us. They make the changes based on the money and their own visions of the future, we're left to wear it, good or bad.

Peoples
02-07-2007, 11:42 PM
The American players have stopped going to these 2 events anyway, so why organise them at all...

TennisGrandSlam
02-07-2007, 11:43 PM
Cancel TMS system, return to ranking systems by any best 14 tournaments :D

uglyamerican
02-07-2007, 11:45 PM
Cancel TMS system, return to ranking systems by any best 14 tournaments :D

That might actually be a good idea. Hmmm.

yakuzaninja
02-07-2007, 11:46 PM
No use bitching about it now or when they make the changes.

As long as I've watched tennis, the powers who have run the sport have treated the fans like shit. They don't care about our opinion...never have, don't now, never will. Period.

Very few businesses in sport care about the fans who pay to watch. That's life, I'm afraid.

BlakeorHenman
02-07-2007, 11:47 PM
I like that clay is being downgraded. It's WAY overemphasized on the current schedule.

However, grass is still underrepresented!!!!

NicoFan
02-07-2007, 11:47 PM
Correct - it's nothing to do with us. They make the changes based on the money and their own visions of the future, we're left to wear it, good or bad.


Or go root for another sport. :lol: That's what I did with baseball - got so sick of the bad managemnet of the sport and the greed by both the players and management that finally I said - screw you - only have been to about one baseball game in seven years.

And let's face - the player's don't give a shit about the fans either. They are all in it only for the money too - ALL of them - anyone names me a player they think is in the game only for the "love of the game" and I'll just laugh. Not one of them despite what they say. Unless of course they think by saying they care about the fans will bring them more endorsements. :p

scoobs
02-07-2007, 11:49 PM
Or go root for another sport. :lol: That's what I did with baseball - got so sick of the bad managemnet of the sport and the greed by both the players and management that finally I said - screw you - only have been to about one baseball game in seven years.

And let's face - the player's don't give a shit about the fans either. They are all in it only for the money too - ALL of them - anyone names me a player they think is in the game only for the "love of the game" and I'll just laugh. Not one of them despite what they say. Unless of course they think by saying they care about the fans will bring them more endorsements. :p
I'm not quite that cynical...but I'll allow that concern for the fans is way down on the list of worries for the vast majority of the players.

Peoples
02-07-2007, 11:51 PM
Or go root for another sport. :lol: That's what I did with baseball - got so sick of the bad managemnet of the sport and the greed by both the players and management that finally I said - screw you - only have been to about one baseball game in seven years.

And let's face - the player's don't give a shit about the fans either. They are all in it only for the money too - ALL of them - anyone names me a player they think is in the game only for the "love of the game" and I'll just laugh. Not one of them despite what they say. Unless of course they think by saying they care about the fans will bring them more endorsements. :p

Josh Olivas isn't in it for the money. Look at his record, it must only be the love of the game that keeps him going :worship:

its.like.that
02-08-2007, 12:04 AM
they should fuck off with Cincy and Canada.

At least Germans and French know what tennis is :retard:

Pfloyd
02-08-2007, 12:08 AM
hardcourt is more popular, its more popular in asia, australia, north america and some countries in Europe. Clay only has south america and some european countries.

I read in an ESPN article (sorry can't find the link) that there are more tournaments on clay than on HC, by 2 I believe.

I don't know what tournaments were included in that count.

However I will say that Green Clay is not unpopular in the U.S

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 12:10 AM
Take Madrid out. No tradition, the crowd is awful and some fields were a joke.

Pfloyd
02-08-2007, 12:11 AM
Take Madrid out. No tradition, the crowd is awful and some fields were a joke.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How the heck does tradition start in the first place? HUH?!?

As for the crowd, WOW, they f'ed off Berdych because he got into a quarell with the local favorite, what a bad ass crowd
By that same logic let's erase RG and the US Open, because the crowds there aren't much better than in Madrid.

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 12:12 AM
mr. Disney is a fedtard that wants to reduce the amount of points nadal could earn and keep him farther away from Federer

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 12:28 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How the heck does tradition start in the first place? HUH?!?

As for the crowd, WOW, they f'ed off Berdych because he got into a quarell with the local favorite, what a bad ass crowd
By that same logic let's erase RG and the US Open, because the crowds there aren't much better than in Madrid.

Wrong. You don't see crowds like Madrid. Paris can be bad, but not that bad.

Well, tradition starts when a pioneer starts something before others and make it last. That's why there are tournaments like TMS Canada with more than 100 years. Madrid was a joke created to replace a much better tournament that was Stuttgart.

Pfloyd
02-08-2007, 12:32 AM
Canada has to start at some point.

And yes I do think that Paris can be just as bad or even worse.

Nadal-Grosjean RG 2005 ring any bells?

If Stuttgart was that succesful then why did it get moved?

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 12:35 AM
Wrong. You don't see crowds like Madrid. Paris can be bad, but not that bad.

Well, tradition starts when a pioneer starts something before others and make it last. That's why there are tournaments like TMS Canada with more than 100 years. Madrid was a joke created to replace a much better tournament that was Stuttgart.

Crowds are bad everywhere. ESPECIAlly in Paris. Nadal has never done anything to them, and yet they HATE him. :lol:

also, by your logic, Cincy shouldnt me moved either?

its.like.that
02-08-2007, 12:47 AM
Take Madrid out. No tradition, the crowd is awful and some fields were a joke.

No. Get rid of the Yank events, they suck.

Yanks are too busy fighting "terrorism" etc. let them deal with that instead :D

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 12:50 AM
Canada has to start at some point.

And yes I do think that Paris can be just as bad or even worse.

Nadal-Grosjean RG 2005 ring any bells?

If Stuttgart was that succesful then why did it get moved?

Crowds are bad everywhere. ESPECIAlly in Paris. Nadal has never done anything to them, and yet they HATE him. :lol:

also, by your logic, Cincy shouldnt me moved either?

Those stupid guys cheering against Ginepri last year just went soooo over the line. As bad as American and French audiences can be, they usually don't cheer tennis as if they were cheering football.

Most French players have the flair and that's what French like. Then it's completely logic they hate Nadal. ;)
He was pulling stunts against Grosjean and that pissed off them too. Nothing surprising.

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 12:51 AM
No. Get rid of the Yank events, they suck.

Yanks are too busy fighting "terrorism" etc. let them deal with that instead :D

The American events suck only because American players do well there?

Pfloyd
02-08-2007, 12:52 AM
Dude that day in Paris, they were disrespectful.

Big Deal, good thing there are emotions in tennis, plus regardless of what rafa bashers say, Berdych was just a plain ass hole that day.

You know sometimes it's good to break tradition, by the way.

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 12:53 AM
Those stupid guys cheering against Ginepri last year just went soooo over the line. As bad as American and French audiences can be, they usually don't cheer tennis as if they were cheering football.

Most French players have the flair and that's what French like. Then it's completely logic they hate Nadal. ;)
He was pulling stunts against Grosjean and that pissed off them too. Nothing surprising.

Ginepri is a :rocker2:

STUNTS?!?!?! what stunts against Seb? He asked them to shut the fuck up (with a polite shhhhh, not an arrogant Berdychesque SHHHHHHH!!!!) But they wanted to carry on. What stunts did Rafa pull? it was Seb who was continually encouraging the crowd and not getting in position to return serve.

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 12:54 AM
The American events suck only because American players do well there?

No, they suck because they're in America, and the Americans know nothing of tennis. :rolleyes:

nobama
02-08-2007, 12:57 AM
actually indian wells seems to not attract many fans, that is another that should be cut before MC.
What are you basing that on?

nobama
02-08-2007, 12:58 AM
No, they suck because they're in America, and the Americans know nothing of tennis. :rolleyes:Not surprising that this turns into a lets bash America thread. Because of course the United States has no tennis tradition at all. :rolleyes:

RickDaStick
02-08-2007, 12:59 AM
What are you basing that on?

i dont know what the other person is basing it on but IW always looks like it has poor attendence. Yea the stadium is really big but usually its 3/4 empty.

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 01:00 AM
Not surprising that this turns into a lets bash America thread. Because of course the United States has no tennis tradition at all. :rolleyes:

Of course. its not like Cincinnati is one of the oldest tourneys in the history of the world or anything :rolleyes:

nobama
02-08-2007, 01:00 AM
The American events suck only because American players do well there?When did Roger Federer become American?

scoobs
02-08-2007, 01:01 AM
Nadal-bashing, America bashing, crowd bashing...

I feel like one vital ingrediant is missing.

One more and we win the toaster oven...

Johnny Groove
02-08-2007, 01:04 AM
Nadal-bashing, America bashing, crowd bashing...

I feel like one vital ingrediant is missing.

One more and we win the toaster oven...

Fed bashing :banana:

FEDERER SUCKS!!!!

nobama
02-08-2007, 01:06 AM
i dont know what the other person is basing it on but IW always looks like it has poor attendence. Yea the stadium is really big but usually its 3/4 empty.Still pulls in more than Miami. I was there last year and I know the attendance was lower because the weather sucked big time. But the year before it wasn't. I believe in the United States its attendance is second only to the US Open.

scoobs
02-08-2007, 01:07 AM
We had the choice of Federer-bashing or Ljubicic-bashing - either would have done.

let me take a moment to get into character.

Ahem. Here goes.

None of this would be necessary if Federer wasn't KILLING THE GAME OF TENNIS!!!

scoobs
02-08-2007, 01:08 AM
Still pulls in more than Miami. I was there last year and I know the attendance was lower because the weather sucked big time. But the year before it wasn't. I believe in the United States its attendance is second only to the US Open.
Was plenty full for the finals - it's a huge stadium and that's never going to be filled in the early rounds, perhaps. But by the business end it's ticking over nicely. And it's the most beautiful arena.

nobama
02-08-2007, 01:15 AM
Was plenty full for the finals - it's a huge stadium and that's never going to be filled in the early rounds, perhaps. But by the business end it's ticking over nicely. And it's the most beautiful arena. Yes it was but the weather was better the final weekend. I know IW has had financial troubles in the past but now that former pros have pumped money into it I can't see it being scrapped.

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 01:20 AM
Ginepri is a :rocker2:

STUNTS?!?!?! what stunts against Seb? He asked them to shut the fuck up (with a polite shhhhh, not an arrogant Berdychesque SHHHHHHH!!!!) But they wanted to carry on. What stunts did Rafa pull? it was Seb who was continually encouraging the crowd and not getting in position to return serve.

I won't get into that discussion now, mate. This isn't the place, but Nadal is always playing the delaying stunts and the French had enough.

No, they suck because they're in America, and the Americans know nothing of tennis. :rolleyes:

Not surprising that this turns into a lets bash America thread. Because of course the United States has no tennis tradition at all. :rolleyes:

When did Roger Federer become American?

I'm not bashing America, really. I don't get why people bash America all the time, even if there are enough political reasons to. Tennis isn't politics, I can separate.

silverwhite
02-08-2007, 01:22 AM
They should downgrade Rome (or Hamburg), downgrade Cincy (or Montreal/Toronto) and probably move one other TMS (would have to be a European one :shrug: ) to the grasscourt season.

scoobs
02-08-2007, 01:25 AM
Yes it was but the weather was better the final weekend. I know IW has had financial troubles in the past but now that former pros have pumped money into it I can't see it being scrapped.
I remember the first day or two last year. Rusedski was on an outside court and it was so cold and windy and he lost very easily and said the conditions made the courts even slower than clay that day. Was a very dank start. Soon picked up, though.

nobama
02-08-2007, 01:42 AM
Yeah wasn't there some massive snow storm before the tournament started? I'd never seen so much snow on the mountains that time of year.

nobama
02-08-2007, 01:44 AM
I remember the first day or two last year. Rusedski was on an outside court and it was so cold and windy and he lost very easily and said the conditions made the courts even slower than clay that day. Was a very dank start. Soon picked up, though.I was there for Fed's R1 match and it was absolutely freezing. The only thing that made it worthwile was seeing Agassi have a temper tantrum in person. :lol:

Bad Religion
02-08-2007, 02:25 AM
Take Madrid out. No tradition, the crowd is awful and some fields were a joke.

No tradition in Spain ? :retard:

2 numbers one (Moyá , Ferrero) , 3 numbers two (Orantes , Corretja, Nadal) , 1 number three (Bruguera) , many Grand Slams winners , Masters Cup, Davis Cup winners .

Do you want tradition ? Take tradition , brazilian moron


No more MS in Monaco and China please .

GlennMirnyi
02-08-2007, 02:35 AM
No tradition in Spain ? :retard:

2 numbers one (Moyá , Ferrero) , 3 numbers two (Orantes , Corretja, Nadal) , 1 number three (Bruguera) , many Grand Slams winners , Masters Cup, Davis Cup winners .

Do you want tradition ? Take tradition , brazilian moron


No more MS in Monaco and China please .

Are you illiterate? Countries' tradition count for DC environment, not for simple tournaments. Madrid has what? 5 years of tradition. That's nothing.

alfonsojose
02-08-2007, 02:43 AM
It should be Cincy instead of Montecarlo. Only one TMS before RG is stupid. Push Montecarlo one week later and it will be fine.

Deboogle!.
02-08-2007, 02:54 AM
Absolutely outlandish. There are a bunch of pics from the tourney last year where the mountains are visible in the background and you can clearly see snow on them. :lol:Yes, I took this while sitting in the stands on Court 4 :p (of course, the snow was sort of still there a month later when we were out there again for Davis Cup and it was nearly 90 degrees - see attached)

http://img2.menstennisforums.com/765/P1050406.JPG

NicoFan
02-08-2007, 02:57 AM
Beautiful picture Deb! :yeah:

Deboogle!.
02-08-2007, 02:59 AM
Beautiful picture Deb! :yeah::)

Btw, that day, they were completely sold out of all the special grounds passes they had made available b/c of the rain. It was PACKED. To get a seat on a court you wanted, you had to sit through the match before it :lol: So, to the people saying tennis is "unpopular" in the US, you obviously haven't checked your facts :)

NicoFan
02-08-2007, 03:07 AM
:)

Btw, that day, they were completely sold out of all the special grounds passes they had made available b/c of the rain. It was PACKED. To get a seat on a court you wanted, you had to sit through the match before it :lol: So, to the people saying tennis is "unpopular" in the US, you obviously haven't checked your facts :)

It's kind of strange.

I've been to Miami, Cincy, New Haven, and of course, the US Open. And the crowds are always great except in NH. The USO last year was so crowded (when it wasn't raining) that it was insane. And everyone keeps talking about getting rid of Cincy, but they have great crowds and it's a nice tournament - the most fan friendly that I've ever been to.

And the numbers are up for people playing the game and taking up the game.

But no one turns on their TV to watch tennis. :shrug: The ratings suck (except when Serena played at the Oz Open when I believe they nearly doubled). It's amazing how low the ratings are.

ChinoRios4Ever
02-08-2007, 03:09 AM
who's next Mr. Disney??? :devil:

Deboogle!.
02-08-2007, 03:10 AM
It's kind of strange.

I've been to Miami, Cincy, New Haven, and of course, the US Open. And the crowds are always great except in NH. The USO last year was so crowded (when it wasn't raining) that it was insane. And everyone keeps talking about getting rid of Cincy, but they have great crowds and it's a nice tournament - the most fan friendly that I've ever been to.

And the numbers are up for people playing the game and taking up the game.

But no one turns on their TV to watch tennis. :shrug: The ratings suck (except when Serena played at the Oz Open when I believe they nearly doubled). It's amazing how low the ratings are.Doesn't Cincy even sell out later in the tournament? When I went to LA for the whole week in 2005, the crowds were also excellent, as were they even in scottsdale, where it was mostly adorable retirees who really enjoyed the tennis. And i've been to Houston which had full stands even for some first round matches.

Who knows why people aren't turning on their TVs, but there's absolutely no correlation between that and the popularity of the tournaments themselves, thankfully

NicoFan
02-08-2007, 03:28 AM
Doesn't Cincy even sell out later in the tournament? When I went to LA for the whole week in 2005, the crowds were also excellent, as were they even in scottsdale, where it was mostly adorable retirees who really enjoyed the tennis. And i've been to Houston which had full stands even for some first round matches.

Who knows why people aren't turning on their TVs, but there's absolutely no correlation between that and the popularity of the tournaments themselves, thankfully

Cincy does sell out late in the week, and even early in the week, it's impossible to get a good seat in the main stadium - you are up in the nose bleed sections. Compare that to when I was in Toronto this summer, and the night before, got great seats down very low for Rafa's and Nico's first round match in the main stadium.

I don't know why they don't watch either. But I do believe that one of the reasons is because it's not on TV enough for people to really get to know the players and to build a following.

It's easy to follow a team or player in other major sports. Here in NY, if I was a huge Derek Jeter and Yanks fan, I just turn on my TV and watch Derek Jeter and the Yanks play almost every night from April to October. Ditto watching the Knicks and Rangers - just turn on my TV. If I love Dale Junior in NASCAR, I can watch Dale Junior every week from Friday to Sunday on about 4 different channels from mid-February to early November.

That's what people want - to see their favorites. It's the 21st century - a sport can't grow without massive TV coverage.

And I think that tournaments still are okay because all those tennis club people come out - and there are a lot of them. And they have the money to go and make a vacation out of it.

But just my humble opinion. :lol:

Deboogle!.
02-08-2007, 03:34 AM
And I think that tournaments still are okay because all those tennis club people come out - and there are a lot of them. And they have the money to go and make a vacation out of it.Yes that's probably true. Out in IW, there were a ton of retirees, and it also happens to fall when a lot of public schools have their Spring Break, so that helps too because groups of kids can go. I love watching cute old retired couples watch tennis. They're heart-warming :lol:

Anyway, I agree with you about the rest :)

It is just ridiculous to see people in this thread say that tournaments here should be moved because tennis isn't popular on TV, though.

There is obviously a reason why certain tournaments have been selected. Chances are good it's financial. Considering a whole bunch of tennis legends just invested in IW, I am not surprised it was spared despite some of its financial problems.

Action Jackson
02-08-2007, 03:40 AM
Josh Olivas isn't in it for the money. Look at his record, it must only be the love of the game that keeps him going :worship:

Thank you for the above statement.

*Viva Chile*
02-08-2007, 03:46 AM
Is this confirmed or is only a supposition made by "brilliant" minds like Wertheim or Bodo? :rolleyes:

NicoFan
02-08-2007, 03:48 AM
It is just ridiculous to see people in this thread say that tournaments here should be moved because tennis isn't popular on TV, though.


It is ridiculous. And if the ATP/USTA could get their act together and figure out a good TV package and market the game better, tennis would definitely start to grow again here. Andy and James are likable guys - but no one sees them or knows who the heck they are. :shrug:

Action Jackson
02-08-2007, 03:54 AM
Is this confirmed or is only a supposition made by "brilliant" minds like Wertheim or Bodo? :rolleyes:

You forgot Mr.Disney as well and this is far from confirmed and I have serious doubt that if the calendar is changed, it will be like this.

*Viva Chile*
02-08-2007, 03:55 AM
You forgot Mr.Disney as well and this is far from confirmed and I have serious doubt that if the calendar is changed, it will be like this.

So please don't give the idea to that retard.... PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!!!!! :o

Federer&Hingis
02-08-2007, 03:58 AM
I want grassssssssss TMS.

NicoFan
02-08-2007, 04:00 AM
So please don't give the idea to that retard.... PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!!!!! :o

:lol: They are going to change it - but who knows which tournaments will stay and which will go.

But even though I don't agree with Wertheim a lot, I can't imagine he would write that without some type of inside info. Maybe I'm wrong though... :shrug:

Action Jackson
02-08-2007, 04:02 AM
So please don't give the idea to that retard.... PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!!!!! :o

They might as well officially do it like golf and they should just have the 4 majors and then let them play on their own tours.

Merton
02-08-2007, 04:24 AM
I think it is premature to have this discussion now when the ATP is all talk and no walk at the moment. Changing the calendar is a fundamental decision, that will affect the game. What agenda does the ATP pursue? The policy will depend on the priorities, for example serving solely the players is different than serving solely the top players, or maximizing revenues for tournaments, or promoting the game, and so on.

Suppose for the moment that the ATP gained the right to form the calendar at its own choice, apart from the slams, Davis Cup and the Olympics that are out of its control. What would be the optimal choice under this "white paper" assumption? One approach is to let the market work, so carry no mandatory event and allocate tournament points according to the total fees generated from each tournament. Another approach is to try to maximize promotion by building tournaments leading up to the slams. From that perspective, the AO and Wimbledon do not get a good preparatory period relative to the FO and the US Open. Again, the simple fact that the slams are events outside the ATP control create complications for implementing an optimal policy, even assuming ideal, "white paper" conditions.

buzzy
02-08-2007, 05:16 AM
There is a new link (Travel the Tour with SAA) on the ATP website main page that shows a map of the world with the locations of all the ATP events. Click on a continent and see all the current calendar events (minus slams and Davis Cup obviously). It gives a nice visual (using bouncy tennis balls) of the distribution of events and overall geographic size of the areas those events serve to cover from a fanbase perspective..

Here is a summary:
Europe - 34 events including 5 master series
North America - 15 events including 4 master series
Asia - 8 events
South America - 3 events
Australia - 3 events
Africa - 1 event

The appearance of this map on their homepage may be the ATP lead-in to explain why they are justified in downgrading 2 European master series events and adding 1 in Asia since there does seem to be a disproportionately large number of events concentrated in Europe. I think Wertheim was in the know here with his heads-up. But how they decided on Monte Carlo and Hamburg, if they are the chosen ones, remains to be seen. I wonder if they will even try to give any reason.

Clara Bow
02-08-2007, 05:29 AM
I hope that South America can get the venues and increased financial resources to really get a higher level tournament soon.


The appearance of this map on their homepage may be the ATP lead-in to explain why they are justified in downgrading 2 European master series events and adding 1 in Asia since there does seem to be a disproportionately large number of events concentrated in Europe. I think Wertheim was in the know here with his heads-up. But how they decided on Monte Carlo and Hamburg, if they are the chosen ones, remains to be seen. I wonder if they will even try to give any reason.

But if they do have to get rid of two European- I think they should get rid of one clay and one of the indoors. Monte Carlo would just be a shame. (Not a knock on the other tournaments- but MC is one the ones with the most history and strong emotional ties for fans.) Then you could have two clay and two indoors. To me- that would just make more sense since it seems like grass is still not an option.

Hendu
02-08-2007, 05:31 AM
There is a new link (Travel the Tour with SAA) on the ATP website main page that shows a map of the world with the locations of all the ATP events. Click on a continent and see all the current calendar events (minus slams and Davis Cup obviously). It gives a nice visual (using bouncy tennis balls) of the distribution of events and overall geographic size of the areas those events serve to cover from a fanbase perspective..

Here is a summary:
Europe - 34 events including 5 master series
North America - 15 events including 4 master series
Asia - 8 events
South America - 3 events
Australia - 3 events
Africa - 1 event

The appearance of this map on their homepage may be the ATP lead-in to explain why they are justified in downgrading 2 European master series events and adding 1 in Asia since there does seem to be a disproportionately large number of events concentrated in Europe. I think Wertheim was in the know here with his heads-up. But how they decided on Monte Carlo and Hamburg, if they are the chosen ones, remains to be seen. I wonder if they will even try to give any reason.

http://www.atptennis.com/en/travelthetour/

Thanks, I haven't seen it before.

NyGeL
02-08-2007, 05:33 AM
Claycourters will not like this...

now there will be too many hard tournaments

buzzy
02-08-2007, 05:38 AM
http://www.atptennis.com/en/travelthetour/

Thanks, I haven't seen it before.

Thanks for putting in the link. :)
For some reason, I couldn't get it to work when I tried to put it in my post.

Action Jackson
02-08-2007, 05:56 AM
Claycourters will not like this...

now there will be too many hard tournaments

Most of the major events are on hardcourts anyway, this will just magnify that.

TennisGrandSlam
02-08-2007, 05:59 AM
There is a new link on the ATP website main page that shows a map of the world with the locations of all the ATP events. Click on a continent and see all the current calendar events (minus slams and Davis Cup obviously). It gives a nice visual (using bouncy tennis balls) of the distribution of events and overall geographic size of the areas those events serve to cover from a fanbase perspective..

Here is a summary:
Europe - 33 events including 5 master series
North America - 15 events including 4 master series
Asia - 8 events
South America - 3 events
Australia - 3 events

The appearance of this map on their homepage may be the ATP lead-in to explain why they are justified in downgrading 2 European master series events and adding 1 in Asia since there does seem to be a disproportionately large number of events concentrated in Europe. I think Wertheim was in the know here with his heads-up. But how they decided on Monte Carlo and Hamburg, if they are the chosen ones, remains to be seen. I wonder if they will even try to give any reason.



Less Tournaments :devil:

Very missing late 1970s-early 1980s :devil: :devil: :devil:



Jimmy Connors: 105

1972 (5) - Queens, Columbus, Cincinnati, Albany, Jacksonville
1973 (11) - Baltimore, Roanoke, Salt Lake City, Salisbury, Hampton, Paramus,, Boston, Columbus, L.A., Quebec, Johannesburg
1974* (14) - Australian Open, Roanoke, Little Rock, Birmingham, Salisbury, Hampton, Salt Lake City, Tempe, Wimbledon, Indianapolis, US Open, L.A., London, Johannesburg
1975* (9) - Bahamas, Birmingham, Salisbury, Boca Raton, Hampton, Denver WCT, North Conway, Bermuda, Maui
1976* (12) - Birmingham, Philadelphia WCT, Hampton, Palm Springs, Denver WCT, Las Vegas, Washington, North Conway, Indianapolis, US Open, Cologne, Wembley
1977* (7) - Birmingham WCT, St. Louis WCT, Las Vegas, Dallas WCT, Maui, Sydney Indoor, Masters
1978* (10) - Philadelphia WCT, Denver, Memphis, Rotterdam WTC, Birmingham, Washington, Indianapolis, Stowe, US Open, Sydney Indoor
1979 (7) - Birmingham, Philadelphia, Memphis, Tulsa, Indianapolis, Stowe, Hong Kong
1980 (6) - Birmingham, Philadelphia, Dallas WCT, North Conway, Republic Of China, Tokyo Indoor
1981 (4) - La Quinta, Brussels, Rotterdam, Wembley
1982 (7) - Monterrey, L.A., Las Vegas, Queens, Wimbledon, Columbus, US Open
1983 (4) - Memphis, Las Vegas, Queens, US Open
1984 (5) - Memphis, La Quinta, Boca West, L.A., Tokyo Indoor
1988 (2) - Washington, Toulouse
1989 (2) - Toulouse, Tel Aviv



Ivan Lendl: 94

1980 (7) - Houston, Toronto, Barcelona, Basel, Tokyo Outdoor, Hong Kong, Taipei
1981 (10) - Stuttgart Indoor, Las Vegas, Montreal, Madrid, Barcelona, Basel, Vienna, Cologne, Buenos Aires, Masters
1982 (15) - Delray Beach WCT, Genoa WCT, Munich WCT, Strasbourg WCT, Frankfurt, Houston, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Washington, North Conway, Cincinnati, L.A. WCT, Naples WCT, Hartford WCT, Masters
1983 (7) - Detroit WCT, Milan, Houston WCT, Hilton Head WCT, Montreal, San Francisco, Tokyo Indoor
1984 (3) - Luxembourg, Roland Garros, Wembley
1985* (11) - Fort Myers, Monte Carlo, Dallas, Forest Hills, Indianapolis, US Open, Stuttgart Outdoor, Sydney Indoor, Tokyo Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1986* (9) - Philadelphia, Boca West, Milan, Fort Myers, Rome, Roland Garros, Stratton Mountain, US Open, Masters
1987* (8) - Hamburg, Roland Garros, Washington, Montreal, US Open, Sydney Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1988 (3) - Monte Carlo, Rome, Toronto
1989* (10) - Australian Open, Scottsdale, Key Biscayne, Forest Hills, Hamburg, Queens, Montreal, Bordeaux, Sydney Indoor, Stockholm
1990 (5) - Australian Open, Milan, Toronto Indoor, Queens, Tokyo Indoor
1991 (3)- Philadelphia, Memphis, Long Island
1992 (1) - Tokyo Indoor
1993 (2) - Munich, Tokyo Indoor



John McEnroe: 77

1978 (6) - Hartford, San Francisco, Stockholm, Wembley, London, Masters
1979 (10) - New Orleans, Milan, San Jose, Dallas WCT, Queens, South Orange, US Open, San Francisco, Stockholm, Wembley
1980 (8) - Richmond WCT, Memphis, Milan, Queens, US Open, Brisbane, Sydney Indoor, Wembley
1981* (10) - Pepsi Grand Slam, Milan, Frankfurt, L.A., Dallas WCT, Queens, Wimbledon, Cincinnati, US Open, Sydney Indoor
1982* (5) - Philadelphia, San Francisco, Sydney Indoor, Tokyo Indoor, Wembley
1983* (7) - Philadelphia, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Wimbledon, Sydney Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1984* (13) - Philadelphia, Richmond WCT, Madrid, Brussels, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Queens, Wimbledon, Toronto, US Open, San Francisco, Stockholm, Masters
1985 (8) - Philadelphia, Houston, Milan, Chicago, Atlanta, Stratton Mountain, Montreal, Stockholm
1986 (3) - L.A., San Francisco, Scottsdale
1988 (2) - Tokyo Outdoor, Detroit
1989 (3) - Lyon, Dallas WCT, Indianapolis
1990 (1) - Basel
1991 (1) - Chicago



Guillermo Vilas: 62

1973 (1) - Buenos Aires
1974 (7) - Gstaad, Hilversum, Louisville, Montreal, Tehran, Buenos Aires, Masters
1975 (5) - Munich, Hilversum, Washington, Louisville, Buenos Aires
1976 (6) - St. Louis WCT, Fort Worth WCT, Monte Carlo WCT, Montreal, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
1977 (16) - Springfield, Buenos Aires, Virginia Beach, Roland Garros, Kitzbuhel, Washington, Louisville, South Orange, Columbus, US Open, Paris, Tehran, Bogota, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Johannesburg WCT
1978 (7) - Hamburg, Munich, Gstaad, South Orange, Aix-En-Provence, Basel, Australian Open
1979 (4) - Hobart, Washington, Buenos Aires, Australian Open
1980 (3) - Rome, Kitzbuhel, Palermo
1981 (3) - Mar Del Plata, Cairo, Houston
1982 (7) - Buenos Aires, Rotterdam, Milan, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Boston, Kitzbuhel
1983 (3) - Richmond WCT, Delray Beach WCT, Kitzbuhel



Bjorn Borg: 61

1974 (7) - London WCT, Sao Paulo WCT, Rome, Roland Garros, Bastad, Boston, Adelaide
1975 (5) - Richmond WCT, Bologna WCT, Roland Garros, Boston, Barcelona
1976 (6) - Toronto Indoor WCT, Sao Paulo WCT, Dallas WCT, Dusseldorf, Wimbledon, Boston
1977 (11) - Memphis, Nice, Monte Carlo WCT, Denver, Wimbledon, Pepsi Grand Slam, Madrid, Barcelona, Basel, Cologne, Wembley
1978 (9) - Birmingham WCT, Las Vegas, Milan WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rome, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Bastad, Tokyo Indoor
1979* (12) - Richmond WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rotterdam, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Bastad, Toronto, Palermo, Tokyo Indoor, Masters
1980* (8) - Pepsi Grand Slam, Nice, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Stockholm, Masters
1981 (3) - Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor, Geneva



These big 5 are still on top 6 of single titles' records :devil: :devil: :devil:

Many more times 10+ per years (Bold years) :)


* - Year-End NO.1

Jimnik
02-08-2007, 08:20 AM
http://www.atptennis.com/en/travelthetour/

Thanks, I haven't seen it before.
Thanks for the link.

Some of the locations on this map are a bit obscure. They've got the Austrian tournament, Poertschach, located up near the Dutch tournaments. :scratch:

I didn't know Bastad was so far North. It's pretty much the same lattitude as Anchorage.

Tennis-Engineer
02-08-2007, 09:58 AM
If they upgrade Halle or Queen's tournament to TMS,I think it makes no sense to see TMS immediately after Grand Slam.Besides these 2 are simultaneous tournament so one of them should be held one week later if other one becomes TMS .So one week before wimbledon we will have 3 tuornaments (Nottingham,Denbosh and one of these 2) on grass and as we know high ranking players wont participate in none of them because of injury risk.

oz_boz
02-08-2007, 10:15 AM
Removing MC?! :eek: No way, they won't be able to do that. Bercy if any of the TMS, or possibly Hamburg - but then Germany won't have any important events anymore. Why not

Buenos Aires
IW
Key Biscane
MC
Rome
Halle
Canada
Cincy
Madrid

and the TMC in China, with attendance in 7 or 8 of nine?

almouchie
02-08-2007, 11:09 AM
I think its stupid
who says or choses which TMS
why not get rid of canada or cincy/key biscyane

4 of TMS in america
Monte Carlo is a must if u ask me
as for upgrading a grass court tournament, that would be the best thing ATP would do for a long time
its about time they gave grass more respect.
only the best players can manage to play on grass, its where u can tell talent from sheer brute force

CmonAussie
02-08-2007, 11:15 AM
Less Tournaments :devil:

Very missing late 1970s-early 1980s :devil: :devil: :devil:



Jimmy Connors: 105

1972 (5) - Queens, Columbus, Cincinnati, Albany, Jacksonville
1973 (11) - Baltimore, Roanoke, Salt Lake City, Salisbury, Hampton, Paramus,, Boston, Columbus, L.A., Quebec, Johannesburg
1974* (14) - Australian Open, Roanoke, Little Rock, Birmingham, Salisbury, Hampton, Salt Lake City, Tempe, Wimbledon, Indianapolis, US Open, L.A., London, Johannesburg
1975* (9) - Bahamas, Birmingham, Salisbury, Boca Raton, Hampton, Denver WCT, North Conway, Bermuda, Maui
1976* (12) - Birmingham, Philadelphia WCT, Hampton, Palm Springs, Denver WCT, Las Vegas, Washington, North Conway, Indianapolis, US Open, Cologne, Wembley
1977* (7) - Birmingham WCT, St. Louis WCT, Las Vegas, Dallas WCT, Maui, Sydney Indoor, Masters
1978* (10) - Philadelphia WCT, Denver, Memphis, Rotterdam WTC, Birmingham, Washington, Indianapolis, Stowe, US Open, Sydney Indoor
1979 (7) - Birmingham, Philadelphia, Memphis, Tulsa, Indianapolis, Stowe, Hong Kong
1980 (6) - Birmingham, Philadelphia, Dallas WCT, North Conway, Republic Of China, Tokyo Indoor
1981 (4) - La Quinta, Brussels, Rotterdam, Wembley
1982 (7) - Monterrey, L.A., Las Vegas, Queens, Wimbledon, Columbus, US Open
1983 (4) - Memphis, Las Vegas, Queens, US Open
1984 (5) - Memphis, La Quinta, Boca West, L.A., Tokyo Indoor
1988 (2) - Washington, Toulouse
1989 (2) - Toulouse, Tel Aviv



Ivan Lendl: 94

1980 (7) - Houston, Toronto, Barcelona, Basel, Tokyo Outdoor, Hong Kong, Taipei
1981 (10) - Stuttgart Indoor, Las Vegas, Montreal, Madrid, Barcelona, Basel, Vienna, Cologne, Buenos Aires, Masters
1982 (15) - Delray Beach WCT, Genoa WCT, Munich WCT, Strasbourg WCT, Frankfurt, Houston, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Washington, North Conway, Cincinnati, L.A. WCT, Naples WCT, Hartford WCT, Masters
1983 (7) - Detroit WCT, Milan, Houston WCT, Hilton Head WCT, Montreal, San Francisco, Tokyo Indoor
1984 (3) - Luxembourg, Roland Garros, Wembley
1985* (11) - Fort Myers, Monte Carlo, Dallas, Forest Hills, Indianapolis, US Open, Stuttgart Outdoor, Sydney Indoor, Tokyo Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1986* (9) - Philadelphia, Boca West, Milan, Fort Myers, Rome, Roland Garros, Stratton Mountain, US Open, Masters
1987* (8) - Hamburg, Roland Garros, Washington, Montreal, US Open, Sydney Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1988 (3) - Monte Carlo, Rome, Toronto
1989* (10) - Australian Open, Scottsdale, Key Biscayne, Forest Hills, Hamburg, Queens, Montreal, Bordeaux, Sydney Indoor, Stockholm
1990 (5) - Australian Open, Milan, Toronto Indoor, Queens, Tokyo Indoor
1991 (3)- Philadelphia, Memphis, Long Island
1992 (1) - Tokyo Indoor
1993 (2) - Munich, Tokyo Indoor



John McEnroe: 77

1978 (6) - Hartford, San Francisco, Stockholm, Wembley, London, Masters
1979 (10) - New Orleans, Milan, San Jose, Dallas WCT, Queens, South Orange, US Open, San Francisco, Stockholm, Wembley
1980 (8) - Richmond WCT, Memphis, Milan, Queens, US Open, Brisbane, Sydney Indoor, Wembley
1981* (10) - Pepsi Grand Slam, Milan, Frankfurt, L.A., Dallas WCT, Queens, Wimbledon, Cincinnati, US Open, Sydney Indoor
1982* (5) - Philadelphia, San Francisco, Sydney Indoor, Tokyo Indoor, Wembley
1983* (7) - Philadelphia, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Wimbledon, Sydney Indoor, Wembley, Masters
1984* (13) - Philadelphia, Richmond WCT, Madrid, Brussels, Dallas WCT, Forest Hills WCT, Queens, Wimbledon, Toronto, US Open, San Francisco, Stockholm, Masters
1985 (8) - Philadelphia, Houston, Milan, Chicago, Atlanta, Stratton Mountain, Montreal, Stockholm
1986 (3) - L.A., San Francisco, Scottsdale
1988 (2) - Tokyo Outdoor, Detroit
1989 (3) - Lyon, Dallas WCT, Indianapolis
1990 (1) - Basel
1991 (1) - Chicago



Guillermo Vilas: 62

1973 (1) - Buenos Aires
1974 (7) - Gstaad, Hilversum, Louisville, Montreal, Tehran, Buenos Aires, Masters
1975 (5) - Munich, Hilversum, Washington, Louisville, Buenos Aires
1976 (6) - St. Louis WCT, Fort Worth WCT, Monte Carlo WCT, Montreal, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
1977 (16) - Springfield, Buenos Aires, Virginia Beach, Roland Garros, Kitzbuhel, Washington, Louisville, South Orange, Columbus, US Open, Paris, Tehran, Bogota, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Johannesburg WCT
1978 (7) - Hamburg, Munich, Gstaad, South Orange, Aix-En-Provence, Basel, Australian Open
1979 (4) - Hobart, Washington, Buenos Aires, Australian Open
1980 (3) - Rome, Kitzbuhel, Palermo
1981 (3) - Mar Del Plata, Cairo, Houston
1982 (7) - Buenos Aires, Rotterdam, Milan, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Boston, Kitzbuhel
1983 (3) - Richmond WCT, Delray Beach WCT, Kitzbuhel



Bjorn Borg: 61

1974 (7) - London WCT, Sao Paulo WCT, Rome, Roland Garros, Bastad, Boston, Adelaide
1975 (5) - Richmond WCT, Bologna WCT, Roland Garros, Boston, Barcelona
1976 (6) - Toronto Indoor WCT, Sao Paulo WCT, Dallas WCT, Dusseldorf, Wimbledon, Boston
1977 (11) - Memphis, Nice, Monte Carlo WCT, Denver, Wimbledon, Pepsi Grand Slam, Madrid, Barcelona, Basel, Cologne, Wembley
1978 (9) - Birmingham WCT, Las Vegas, Milan WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rome, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Bastad, Tokyo Indoor
1979* (12) - Richmond WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rotterdam, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Bastad, Toronto, Palermo, Tokyo Indoor, Masters
1980* (8) - Pepsi Grand Slam, Nice, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Stockholm, Masters
1981 (3) - Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor, Geneva



These big 5 are still on top 6 of single titles' records :devil: :devil: :devil:

Many more times 10+ per years (Bold years) :)


* - Year-End NO.1

:wavey: :D
...
Yeah the 1970s & early 1980s were crazy times:eek:
...
Of course a lot of those titles would now be classified as challengers;) , especially some ot the MM events Connors won:devil:
...
The only player capable of winning double digit titles in a year these days seems to be Federer:cool:
..
Still amazed that Nadal managed to win 11-titles in 2005~ don`t see him replicating that;)

TennisGrandSlam
02-08-2007, 11:41 AM
:wavey: :D
...
Yeah the 1970s & early 1980s were crazy times:eek:
...
Of course a lot of those titles would now be classified as challengers;) , especially some ot the MM events Connors won:devil:
...
The only player capable of winning double digit titles in a year these days seems to be Federer:cool:
..
Still amazed that Nadal managed to win 11-titles in 2005~ don`t see him replicating that;)



Now, ATP Masters Series are Mandatory tournaments for Race points, only 5 MM are counted for RP. :devil:

So, it is hard to win much more titles as Connors, JMac, Lendl, Vilas (in 1977 :worship: )

avocadoe
02-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Monte Carlo is arguably my fave AMS. Clay isn't my fave surface, but I like the scenery and the look of the event. It should stay.

Hamburg has been getting poor crowds cos Federer and Nadal don't play. I assume they will this year because of the 3 set finals.

And yes if you said to a Canadian they were American they would probably kick you in the balls.

Roger played there 2000-2005

tangerine_dream
02-08-2007, 04:06 PM
Downgrade Hamburg and upgrade Queen's. They need a grass AMS.

hosky
02-08-2007, 04:09 PM
Practically, i prefer Monte Carlo, i love the scenery there very much.
But it's good news that it will be held in Shanghai. IMO, Shanghai is not suitable enough to hold the Year-end Final, but a nice place to hold world-class tournaments.

Alvarillo
02-08-2007, 04:14 PM
Only 1 clay TMS?

Clay is arguably a more popular surface that hardcourt, yet they are going to downgrade 2 clay master series?

Wow, if this does happen, fuck Mr. Disney.

I think Madrid will be the second clay MS
It's what spanish organizers and Tiriac pretend so ....

buzzy
02-08-2007, 04:22 PM
I think its stupid
who says or choses which TMS
why not get rid of canada or cincy/key biscyane

4 of TMS in america
Monte Carlo is a must if u ask me
as for upgrading a grass court tournament, that would be the best thing ATP would do for a long time
its about time they gave grass more respect.
only the best players can manage to play on grass, its where u can tell talent from sheer brute force

I think if you look at the distribution on the map it becomes obvious why it has to be events in Europe that get downgraded and not any from North America which has fewer to begin with. I realize that each of the individual countries in Europe has a strong interest in keeping the one TMS held in their country, but the big picture says that Europe is the continent that has to give something up. As I said, it will be interesting to hear what criteria the ATP uses to decide which 2 events they are downgrading.

But, I also agree with you that upgrading a grass tournament should have been something that was included in this restructuring. I don't know why we don't seem to hear anything from ATP organisers about the need for another big grass event other than Wimbledon. Who knows, Wimby may want to be the only big grass event hence adding to its prestige with its unique appeal. After all, it does hold the unofficial title of THE Premiere Tennis Event of the year.

canbera
02-08-2007, 05:05 PM
Germany needs its own Masters Series event, no matter which surface.

just remove Indian Wells, Madrid, Paris or Cincy. Then South America and Asia can have MS events, too. It's simply not fair that America is allowed to have 3, and on the other hand they try to downgrade Hamburg and Monte Carlo.

Tennis-Engineer
02-08-2007, 06:34 PM
I think Madrid will be the second clay MS
It's what spanish organizers and Tiriac pretend so ....

Clay tournament in winter? :confused: If Madrid becomes the second clay MS they should change the tournament time.For example Madrid instead of Barcelona open in clay season, then Barcelona tournament later in october but indoor !

yakuzaninja
02-08-2007, 06:49 PM
There does need to be a grass AMS though. Hamburg could be given to Halle, or a hard court one can go as there's four of them.

gillian
02-08-2007, 06:52 PM
Hamburg was a no-brainer. Lovely tournament, but coming right after Rome, there are just so many withdrawals.

Downgrading Monte Carlo is inexplicable to me, though.

nobama
02-08-2007, 07:34 PM
Germany needs its own Masters Series event, no matter which surface.

just remove Indian Wells, Madrid, Paris or Cincy. Then South America and Asia can have MS events, too. It's simply not fair that America is allowed to have 3, and on the other hand they try to downgrade Hamburg and Monte Carlo.What part of South America can afford to have a Masters event? Europe has far more tournaments than North America does. Even if MC is downgraded I doubt the top players will stop showing up.

Alvarillo
02-08-2007, 07:55 PM
Clay tournament in winter? :confused: If Madrid becomes the second clay MS they should change the tournament time.For example Madrid instead of Barcelona open in clay season, then Barcelona tournament later in october but indoor !

of course in that case Madrid would move to Spring, but Barcelona will never leave its week because is a "club" tournament, has been played for more than 50 years in RCT Barcelona 1899 and can't be played indoors

kobulingam
02-08-2007, 08:19 PM
What part of South America can afford to have a Masters event? Europe has far more tournaments than North America does. Even if MC is downgraded I doubt the top players will stop showing up.


Listen, if South America can support Formula One races that do very well, with facilities that are much harder to build, maintain and develop, South America will do just fine with tennis tournaments.

kobulingam
02-08-2007, 08:21 PM
Downgrade Hamburg and upgrade Queen's. They need a grass AMS.

If that does happen, Germany should get the grass masters tourney. I'm not sure if they have any facilities that can cope with a TMS level grass tournament. Halle probably needs an upgrade before it can.

Pfloyd
02-08-2007, 08:22 PM
What part of South America can afford to have a Masters event? Europe has far more tournaments than North America does. Even if MC is downgraded I doubt the top players will stop showing up.

Be careful with the comments you say about South America.

Brazil has hosted a few world cups and so has Argentina.

Brasil is also the tenth economy in the world.....

sondraj06
02-08-2007, 08:25 PM
ah cincy should stay, and stay as long as it takes for me to go and see it in person.

Sommarsverige
02-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Thanks for the link.

Some of the locations on this map are a bit obscure. They've got the Austrian tournament, Poertschach, located up near the Dutch tournaments. :scratch:

I didn't know Bastad was so far North. It's pretty much the same lattitude as Anchorage.

Båstad isn´t so far in the North ;) It is south from Stockholm and on the west coast, they put it totally wrong on the map!

buzzy
02-08-2007, 11:44 PM
ah cincy should stay, and stay as long as it takes for me to go and see it in person.

Yes, you should try to get there if it's close for you. It's a very fan friendly event, though you won't get great seats unless you go for the whole week. Their single session tickets are all nosebleed section. But the players are readily accessible for photos, autographs, and chatting. I was even able to get Federer to autograph my Wimbledon hat.

oz_boz
02-09-2007, 09:06 AM
Downgrade Hamburg and upgrade Queen's. They need a grass AMS.

Queen's is maybe traditionally the biggest grass event apart from Wimbly, but IMO Germany should host a big event and London already has the big W. Halle would thus be a better choice for a grass TMS if Hamburg is downgraded.

Xristos
02-09-2007, 09:29 AM
When will this happen???

Next year?

Björki
02-09-2007, 09:44 AM
crappy news

Hamburg :bigcry:

Monte Carlo :sad:

Nacho
02-09-2007, 09:52 AM
I think this De Villiers and Tiriac's interview is worth reading. It's about Madrid and the clay master series

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=39492

ETIENNE DE VILLIERS: Madrid will always have a very important role in our Masters structure. I can expand on that by saying the tournament that we are at today, this week is one of the finest events that you'll ever see anywhere in the world for any sport. I think it's a great credit to this young man sitting on my right and his team Gerard. They have produced an event, which is not just a great sporting event, not just a great entertainment event, but it is a great social event. I've told Ion that I want a year round pass so I can eat here every day, every night for the year. But unfortunately you can't do that.
The city is also building a spectacular new facility which I was privileged to go and see. The intention obviously is to bid for the Olympic Games in 2016. With this facility it gives the opportunity to stage a bigger event. And Ion and his team would very much like the opportunity to consider the Madrid venue, the team that has put on this great tournament to provide Madrid with a combined event.
As much as I would like to give that to Madrid, I can't. It is a process that will be subject to several very, very worthy other cities and tournaments. Rome has staged an Italian Open for 100 years. It has great tradition in its favor, and they would be very interested in staging a combined event. As would Monte Carlo.
So there are at least three contenders for this position. We will weigh up independently, objectively, and transparently the merits of each of the applications. We will look to a number of criteria. Those criteria will include, but won't be limited to the facility, the ability to put on a great tournament, the attractiveness of tennis in that market, the ability to finance successfully and viably a growing tournament over a period of years.
The tradition of the sport in the market, the strength of the player fields in those markets, and obviously also the financial considerations that the respective bidders will make. It is a process, but I would say that Madrid has a number of outstanding qualities that makes it a very strong contender.
Q. Tell me basically if I'm wrong. The ATP has two combined events in Europe or just one?
ETIENNE DE VILLIERS: Just one. We plan to have four combined events in total. The two that exist in North America, one in the U.S., in fact. We wish to see one go into the period just leading into the French Open, two weeks before the French Open. We think that's a great time. It's supported positively by the French Tennis Federation. And then there's one that we would like ideally to have in China, in Shanghai or in Beijing. It's a market that clearly just by the sheer physical size, population, it's a great market. But it's also a market that's shown great appetite for the sport.
And we feel that the Masters Cup has been a great way to introduce a professional sport at the very top level to the market. We are thrilled and delighted with how the Masters Cup has been run by our partners in China and Shanghai, but we feel that they can step up to the next level and have a combined event, which will be a bigger showcase, and at the same time be able to bring the Masters Cup back to Europe, which we feel is very important.

Hokit
02-09-2007, 10:49 AM
I'd love it if Japan got an indoor TMS on carpet! It's a great surface and facilities like the Tokyo Dome have often managed good ticket sales numbers.

But I guess it's wishful thinking because there's no good Japanese ATP player to headline the tournament (as all of them are garbage!) :(

Hokit
02-09-2007, 10:52 AM
And I agree that Hamburg should be downgraded to maybe an International Series. Not so Monte Carlo - I don't know what their finances are like, but Nadal and Federer have been commited in the past few years. If the ATP has issues getting big names attending tournaments, why cancel a place like Monte Carlo which doesn't have that problem? :confused:

Agassi Aces
02-09-2007, 11:34 AM
I would be so happy if London got the TMC and as China have done a great job they at least deserve an AMS. I do think that Hamburg needs to be downgraded. You never get a full line up there as too many players won't make the trip staight from Rome. The conditions aren't great their either and really doesn't give the best preparation for Roland Garros. Monte Carlo is a difficult one as it is such a prestigious tournament, but maybe too early on in the Clay Court Season. I know Andre Agassi decided not to play this tournament in his latter years as he felt it just wouldn't prepare him fully for Paris. I do think Monte Carlo maybe should keep its AMS status, but not if there was to be a grass AMS. Surely the time has come for this; the only surface not to have an AMS. Queens is one of the most supported tournaments outside the Grand Slams and AMS. Upgrading Queens to an AMS would surely be the best thing to do to make it nine AMS. The players would then be able to stay in London for Wimbledon.

Monteque
02-09-2007, 12:19 PM
They want to get rid off Monte Carlo because it dont has any interest to Americans. Last year, Roddick, Agassi, Blake, Ginepri, and Fish all ruled out from that tourny.

China should have 1 major TMC, they deserves it. I was at there last year, great crowd, nice climate, and the Chinese ppl took it with big enthusiasm and potential marketing to 1 billion people and also representing Asian other ppl, they just can't walk away from that facts.

It is ridiculous to downgrade one of 4 North America TMS. Europe has 5. Also US and Canada are two big countries so they deserve to that, let alone with the power of $$$. So i agree to downgrade Hamburg and MC/Paris and add China....:)

Action Jackson
02-09-2007, 12:28 PM
Tiriac is a mafia crook and de Villiers is a dickhead.

nobama
02-09-2007, 12:43 PM
They want to get rid off Monte Carlo because it dont has any interest to Americans. Last year, Roddick, Agassi, Blake, Ginepri, and Fish all ruled out from that tourny.Why would that matter? Mr Disney isn't American and they all suck on clay anyway so I don't think they were missed in MC.

mtw
02-09-2007, 01:28 PM
According to Wertheim's latest, the ATP is set to make a major calendar revision. How do you all feel about this change? Will cutting out 2 of the Master's Series events help the players overscheduling problem? And are these the right 2 events to downgrade?

"• Look for the new ATP calendar to include eight Masters Series events: Indian Wells, Key Biscayne, Rome, Canada, Cincy, Paris, Madrid and China. (Hamburg and Monte Carlo get downgraded to economy class.) Players will be expected to play "eight of eight", though, realistically, six or seven will be the norm. The year-end Masters will be held in London. Details to come."

Link to the complete text:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_wertheim/02/06/mailbag/2.html

It is not very logical and rather stupid. Why do they want to eliminate 2 European towns and leave 3 American ones? Cincinatti, Indian Wells and Key Biscane. Can it be any dishonest help for desperate situation of US tennis? No delusions. Roger will win in these 3 American places too.

All_Slam_Andre
02-09-2007, 02:08 PM
Monte-Carlo should retain its TMS (who cares if the Americans pull out when they are useless on clay). Look how many Monte-Carlo champions have gone on to win the French Open.
Paris should lose its TMS as the city already has a grand slam. Cincinnati should lose its TMS as the crowds are terrible and the city is small and incredibly boring.
North America should have only 3 out of the 8 TMS events, one in California, one in Florida and the other in Canada.
Europe should have 4, Monte-Carlo, Rome, Madrid and one in Germany, possibly on grass at Halle (London and the UK already have a slam so they don't deserve a TMS at Queen's)
The final TMS should go to China, but should be on carpet.

*Ljubica*
02-09-2007, 02:45 PM
Monte-Carlo should retain its TMS (who cares if the Americans pull out when they are useless on clay). Look how many Monte-Carlo champions have gone on to win the French Open.
Paris should lose its TMS as the city already has a grand slam. Cincinnati should lose its TMS as the crowds are terrible and the city is small and incredibly boring.
North America should have only 3 out of the 8 TMS events, one in California, one in Florida and the other in Canada.
Europe should have 4, Monte-Carlo, Rome, Madrid and one in Germany, possibly on grass at Halle (London and the UK already have a slam so they don't deserve a TMS at Queen's)
The final TMS should go to China, but should be on carpet.

I think those are excellent ideas.

MrExcel
02-09-2007, 04:19 PM
De Villiers has done an exclusive interview for Sky Sports which is on as I speak. He has confirmed his intentions for most of the rumours except that he said there would be TWO Masters events leading into Roland Garros, the US Open, the Masters Cup, and Indian Wells and Miami where they are.

This means that Monte-Carlo probably won't be getting the chop as a Masters Event, much more likely that Madrid or Paris (probably Madrid in my mind) will be replaced by an event in China, which he strongly intends on doing.

This is still what he intends though, nothing set in stone yet.

buzzy
02-09-2007, 04:56 PM
Monte-Carlo should retain its TMS (who cares if the Americans pull out when they are useless on clay). Look how many Monte-Carlo champions have gone on to win the French Open.
Paris should lose its TMS as the city already has a grand slam. Cincinnati should lose its TMS as the crowds are terrible and the city is small and incredibly boring.
North America should have only 3 out of the 8 TMS events, one in California, one in Florida and the other in Canada.
Europe should have 4, Monte-Carlo, Rome, Madrid and one in Germany, possibly on grass at Halle (London and the UK already have a slam so they don't deserve a TMS at Queen's)
The final TMS should go to China, but should be on carpet.
Sorry in advance but this will be long to address all of your comments.

1. Nobody at all cares if the Americans pull out of Monte Carlo for any reason. I'm sure that has no bearing whatsoever in choosing that event to downgrade.

2. It is a legitimate argument that Paris be one of the ones to lose their Master's Series status since they already have a slam.

3. North America should have 4 and Europe should have 3 based on travel distances between the events and ability to draw crowds. I'll refer people once again to the map on the ATP site and also add some travel distances I looked up to further clarify for those people who haven't yet grasped the magnitude of the geographic size of the US.
Hamburg to Paris 561 miles
Paris to Monte Carlo 591 miles
Monte Carlo to Rome 430 miles
Paris to Madrid 788 miles
Madrid to Monte Carlo 797 miles
Indian Wells to Key Biscayne 2623 miles
Key Biscayne to Cincinatti 1137 miles
Indian Wells to Montreal 2867 miles
Key Biscayne to Toronto 1668 miles
Indian Wells to Cincinatti 2157 miles
In other words, someone could drive to multiple European events and put less mileage on their car than one trip in North America. Add in the fact that train travel in Europe makes many of these trips easier than driving. Removing the status of 2 of the European tournaments still leaves 3 and with the small distances between them, a true fan could attend them all. Removing any of the North American events would cause someone to have to travel thousands of miles to get to the next closest one, a much more costly trip in both time and money.

4. The final TMS should go to China or South America. I think South America has a much stronger history with the sport and a significantly larger player participation in the tour. One of the venues there should really make a concerted effort to develop to the point of being able to host the event. However, until they do China appears to be a stronger contender.

As far as which European events should be downgraded...every country wants their own to be retained. That's perfectly understandable. I don't know what factors the ATP will decide are the most important but I'm sure it ultimately comes down to money not sentiment. Personally, I'd love to see them add a grass TMS somewhere but that doesn't seem to be part of the plan.

buzzy
02-09-2007, 04:58 PM
Oops, I had that reply ready and got distracted before I sent it. Now I see De Villiers had made some formal announcement. I have to go find the whole thing now to see what happened.

*Ljubica*
02-09-2007, 05:05 PM
De Villiers has done an exclusive interview for Sky Sports which is on as I speak. He has confirmed his intentions for most of the rumours except that he said there would be TWO Masters events leading into Roland Garros, the US Open, the Masters Cup, and Indian Wells and Miami where they are.

This means that Monte-Carlo probably won't be getting the chop as a Masters Event, much more likely that Madrid or Paris (probably Madrid in my mind) will be replaced by an event in China, which he strongly intends on doing.

This is still what he intends though, nothing set in stone yet.

Yes - I just watched that too. Also, the discussion aterwards with Peter Flemng etc. It made interesting viewing.

All_Slam_Andre
02-09-2007, 05:08 PM
Great post Buzzy. I just think that 1 grand slam and 2 masters series events for the USA would be just about right (I don't mean like an America-basher at all), and that as many different countries as possible should get to host a big tournament.
Regarding China, instead of giving them a Masters Series event, should the ATP just let them keep the Masters Cup every year? I personally think that the last 2 masters cups have been a success, with great attendances (even when virtually everyone pulled in 2005). I personally don't believe that any country with a grand slam should get to host the Masters Cup.

scoobs
02-09-2007, 05:16 PM
Yes - I just watched that too. Also, the discussion aterwards with Peter Flemng etc. It made interesting viewing.
I'll probably get my head bitten off, but what he said made a certain amount of sense to me, on the calendar.

2 TMS in Europe going into Roland Garros, 2 North American TMS going into the US Open, 2 TMS going into the TMC - and the TMC back in Europe, hopefully London he said

Which does suggest to me that, if, as he also said, he wants to put something big in China, then it would either be Paris or Madrid that would be for the chop

After the US Open, there's the Thai Open, Japan Open, China Open - this would be a good time to slot a TMS over there in, then one back in Europe, before the TMC in Europe.

Indian Wells and Miami would be left alone.

It still wouldn't be a perfect calendar but it would be a bit tidier and more coherent then now.

It still doesn't address the no gap between Canada and Cincy and more of a gap between Roland Garros and Wimbledon, however.

bavaria100
02-09-2007, 05:25 PM
De Villiers has done an exclusive interview for Sky Sports which is on as I speak. He has confirmed his intentions for most of the rumours except that he said there would be TWO Masters events leading into Roland Garros, the US Open, the Masters Cup, and Indian Wells and Miami where they are.

This means that Monte-Carlo probably won't be getting the chop as a Masters Event, much more likely that Madrid or Paris (probably Madrid in my mind) will be replaced by an event in China, which he strongly intends on doing.

This is still what he intends though, nothing set in stone yet.

Six weeks ago, I read an article in which was stated that Hamburg and Monte Carlo will be downgraded. Rome remains as a Masters tourney and Madrid will get the second clay TMS.

buzzy
02-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Yes - I just watched that too. Also, the discussion aterwards with Peter Flemng etc. It made interesting viewing.

Do you have a link to the interview? Is it online anywhere? I haven't found it.
If I understand what's been posted here, they aren't looking to drop 2 but will downgrade only 1 of the current master's events? And he didn't specify which one?

MrExcel
02-09-2007, 05:29 PM
I'll probably get my head bitten off, but what he said made a certain amount of sense to me, on the calendar.

2 TMS in Europe going into Roland Garros, 2 North American TMS going into the US Open, 2 TMS going into the TMC - and the TMC back in Europe, hopefully London he said

Which does suggest to me that, if, as he also said, he wants to put something big in China, then it would either be Paris or Madrid that would be for the chop

After the US Open, there's the Thai Open, Japan Open, China Open - this would be a good time to slot a TMS over there in, then one back in Europe, before the TMC in Europe.

Indian Wells and Miami would be left alone.

It still wouldn't be a perfect calendar but it would be a bit tidier and more coherent then now.

It still doesn't address the no gap between Canada and Cincy and more of a gap between Roland Garros and Wimbledon, however.

I agree actually, you're never going to get everyone happy whether you make changes or not, but the calendar changes certainly seem to make sense and make things a lot more 'tidy'.

The two things I'd like to see him questioned on though is the Round Robin system (notably the situation in Delray Beach where a play only needs one set in a match to get progress), and the Sunday starts (notably Bastad cancelling their Sunday start so as not to overlap with Wimbledon).

Peter Fleming also made a sensible observation of the Round Robin system which is that during the first few days of the event, you see that players have won and lost, but that didn't really mean anything. You still knew the winners might not get through, and the loser could still go through. It took away the value of the results, and the excitement of seeing an early round upsets, etc.

So basically, I'm for most of the calendar changes... But the RR/early starts I still don't agree with.

buzzy
02-09-2007, 05:50 PM
Great post Buzzy. I just think that 1 grand slam and 2 masters series events for the USA would be just about right (I don't mean like an America-basher at all), and that as many different countries as possible should get to host a big tournament.
Regarding China, instead of giving them a Masters Series event, should the ATP just let them keep the Masters Cup every year? I personally think that the last 2 masters cups have been a success, with great attendances (even when virtually everyone pulled in 2005). I personally don't believe that any country with a grand slam should get to host the Masters Cup.

:lol: Thanks and no "American bashing" taken.

Actually I agree with you that as many countries as possible should get a chance to host the bigger events. But I still feel that North America needs more than Europe so that people at least get an opportunity to have one event a year within a reasonable distance. Maybe the European events could rotate Master's status from year to year sort of how the Canadian event moves between Toronto and Montreal. All the European events could still be held each year but which ones are designated Masters status would change each year. That way, there is no permanent loss to anyone.

As far as the Master's Cup remaining in China, I don't agree with you there. That is such a unique event that it needs to be made available to the entire tennis world. In order to do that, it has to keep rotating. I'd rather see it move every year or 2 years at most to give more people a chance to attend. And yes, since it would move frequently it can have its turn in a country that already has a slam ...but if possible there, it should be in a different part of the country. Just my opinion since it will never be near enough for me to attend anyway :lol:

All_Slam_Andre
02-09-2007, 06:02 PM
:lol: Thanks and no "American bashing" taken.

Maybe the European events could rotate Master's status from year to year sort of how the Canadian event moves between Toronto and Montreal. All the European events could still be held each year but which ones are designated Masters status would change each year. That way, there is no permanent loss to anyone.



That's a very good idea :worship:

Regarding the Masters Cup, yeah you're right when I think sensibly about it. Possibly it should be held in the same venue for 2 years as you said, before moving to a different continent each time

Action Jackson
02-09-2007, 06:04 PM
I will believe it when I see it in practice.

It's not hard to fix the problem with back to back Masters, but they haven't solved that as of yet.

All_Slam_Andre
02-09-2007, 06:09 PM
I really hope Madrid doesn't lose its TMS status. Spain is a tennis superpower and deserves to have a major event. Scrap Paris. No city should have both a slam and masters series event.

buzzy
02-09-2007, 09:54 PM
No city should have both a slam and masters series event.

What about when they move the year-end event from China to London giving London the trifecta of Queens, Wimby and the Masters Cup? Uh Oh... :devil:

All_Slam_Andre
02-09-2007, 10:31 PM
What about when they move the year-end event from China to London giving London the trifecta of Queens, Wimby and the Masters Cup? Uh Oh... :devil:

I might not be complaining much when that happens :lol:.
I am guessin that London wouldn't get the TMC permanently and after a few years it would change venue.

vogus
02-09-2007, 11:22 PM
it's too drastic. All they have to do to solve the TMS problem is separate Paris-Madrid and Cincy-Montreal by a week and downgrade either Hamburg or Rome. Removing Monte Carlo from TMS is too drastic. On the other hand, that tournie is so prestigious that it will have no trouble carrying on.

ys
02-10-2007, 12:17 AM
it should have been done long time ago.. Need to rid the top of the rankings off the players who can't play anything but clay..

ys
02-10-2007, 12:18 AM
Removing Monte Carlo from TMS is too drastic. On the other hand, that tournie is so prestigious that it will have no trouble carrying on.

With just one correction. Twice less points. All that matters.

buzzy
02-10-2007, 12:33 AM
I like the idea of the TMC rotating but I don't think it should be in a place that already has a Slam tournament. As an American I realize that yes, this also rules out the US, but: :shrug:. It should rotate between places that have a large interest in tennis but are nowhere near a Slam: China, Japan, South America, etc. At least, that's what I'd do if my aim was to expand the sport's global market.

I guess you're right about that. Spread it around to be fair. This would allow places that don't have the facilities to host a slam or even a regular masters series event to have a chance. After all, with only 8 competitors, the TMC only requires one nice big arena and a couple of practice courts. It doesn't need the masses of court space that the other big events require. That should allow practically any country to get some stadium up to the standards needed if they want to bid on being the host.

vogus
02-10-2007, 01:34 AM
it should have been done long time ago.. Need to rid the top of the rankings off the players who can't play anything but clay..


come on. Now they will have 3 TMS indoors, 4 on hardcourt, and only 1 on clay? That is unbalanced. You'd have to think that Madrid is planning to switch from indoors to clay if this change really takes place.

scoobs
02-10-2007, 06:03 AM
Based on what Mr Disney said in the interview he gave to Sky, the impression I got that was that the new calendar would look something like this:


Australian Open
TMS Indian Wells (combined)
TMS Miami (combined)
TMS Monte Carlo
TMS Rome (possibly combined event with WTA?)
Roland Garros
Wimbledon
TMS Canada
TMS Cincinnati
US Open
TMS China (possibly combined event with WTA?)
TMS Madrid
TMC (London?)This is speculation, based on what he said, which was:


2 TMS events before Roland Garros, 2 TMS events before US Open, 2 TMS events before TMC
TMC in London if he gets his way
1 TMS event moved to China to serve the growing market there
1 TMS event prior to Roland Garros downgraded
# of TMS events reduced to 8He has also spoken of a desire for more big combined events with the WTA, up to 4 in the season if possible. Rome has been mooted for one of these and I think one at the new one in China would also make sense.

Based on what he said and what has been said in the past, the Calendar above seems to me, to be what he's hinting at, although it's only my theory based on what I heard. The same criteria could potentially see things like Monte Carlo lose its TMS status rather than Hamburg. Or potentially both Monte Carlo and Hamburg lose TMS status, a new clay event in Spain gains TMS status, Spain loses TMS Madrid to China and TMS Paris is left alone

That would look something like this


Australian Open
TMS Indian Wells
TMS Miami
TMS (Madrid? Barcelona?) (possibly combined with WTA)?
TMS Rome (possibly combined with WTA?)
Roland Garros
Wimbledon
TMS Canada
TMS Cincinnati
US Open
TMS China (possibly combined with WTA?)
TMS Paris
TMC (London?)That fits more with what Wertheim claims to have heard :shrug:

I don't know.

So far it's just hints and whispers.

Henry Chinaski
02-10-2007, 08:07 AM
Yeah, I got a similar impression regarding the calendar as scoobsuk after seeing the interview.

I found his claim that people don't watch tennis because the matches are too long utterly baffling though. (This was his defence for ending best of 5 set MS finals, so nothing to do with players tough schedules/fatigue after all)

The way he speaks almost exclusively in marketing jargon is quite disturbing as well.

Action Jackson
02-10-2007, 08:14 AM
I found his claim that people don't watch tennis because the matches are too long utterly baffling though. (This was his defence for ending best of 5 set MS finals, so nothing to do with players tough schedules/fatigue after all)

The way he speaks almost exclusively in marketing jargon is quite disturbing as well.

Mr. Disney is a horrible little man.

Action Jackson
02-10-2007, 08:19 AM
it should have been done long time ago.. Need to rid the top of the rankings off the players who can't play anything but clay..

More garbage from you again.

Most of the main events on the tour yes 13 of them are on hardcourt. 4 of those are clay, so yes the players who do better on clay smooch of the rankings.

It's getting boring and there are more than enough opportunities to get the optional events on all surfaces except grass.

Via
02-10-2007, 11:04 AM
being where i am, i would be delighted if there would be a TMS in china, or simply anywhere in the asia-pacific region. this wouldn't just benefit china, it should also help to raise the popularity of other tournaments in the region around the time. right now these are small tournaments that don't attract too many higher ranked players without the use of ... umm... appearance money.

Boris Franz Ecker
02-10-2007, 12:40 PM
Monte Carlo is arguably my fave AMS. Clay isn't my fave surface, but I like the scenery and the look of the event. It should stay.

Hamburg has been getting poor crowds cos Federer and Nadal don't play. I assume they will this year because of the 3 set finals.

And yes if you said to a Canadian they were American they would probably kick you in the balls.

Hamburg has higher attendance than Rome or Monte Carlo.

And in contrast to other tournaments, one spectator at Hamburg is only counted once.

Jimnik
02-10-2007, 12:51 PM
Based on what Mr Disney said in the interview he gave to Sky, the impression I got that was that the new calendar would look something like this:


Australian Open
TMS Indian Wells (combined)
TMS Miami (combined)
TMS Monte Carlo
TMS Rome (possibly combined event with WTA?)
Roland Garros
Wimbledon
TMS Canada
TMS Cincinnati
US Open
TMS China (possibly combined event with WTA?)
TMS Madrid
TMC (London?)This is speculation, based on what he said, which was:


2 TMS events before Roland Garros, 2 TMS events before US Open, 2 TMS events before TMC
TMC in London if he gets his way
1 TMS event moved to China to serve the growing market there
1 TMS event prior to Roland Garros downgraded
# of TMS events reduced to 8He has also spoken of a desire for more big combined events with the WTA, up to 4 in the season if possible. Rome has been mooted for one of these and I think one at the new one in China would also make sense.

Based on what he said and what has been said in the past, the Calendar above seems to me, to be what he's hinting at, although it's only my theory based on what I heard. The same criteria could potentially see things like Monte Carlo lose its TMS status rather than Hamburg. Or potentially both Monte Carlo and Hamburg lose TMS status, a new clay event in Spain gains TMS status, Spain loses TMS Madrid to China and TMS Paris is left alone

That would look something like this


Australian Open
TMS Indian Wells
TMS Miami
TMS (Madrid? Barcelona?) (possibly combined with WTA)?
TMS Rome (possibly combined with WTA?)
Roland Garros
Wimbledon
TMS Canada
TMS Cincinnati
US Open
TMS China (possibly combined with WTA?)
TMS Paris
TMC (London?)That fits more with what Wertheim claims to have heard :shrug:

I don't know.

So far it's just hints and whispers.
Interesting. I wish I'd seen the interview.

No TMS in Germany? :(
4 in North America
3 in Europe
1 in Asia

The anti-Americans on this board won't be very happy. :lol:

All_Slam_Andre
02-10-2007, 03:33 PM
I personally think that they should have kept 9 TMS, with 4 in Europe, 4 in North America, and 1 in Asia, but never mind.

Stensland
05-13-2008, 08:45 PM
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9CD731D06F17450CB39BE001000DD173/Doc~E2C6A5649A82B4B3E852C927674D3FB5D~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

Stich: „Nicht zwangsläufig Masters-Status halten“

Im Streit um den Erhalt des Rothenbaum als Masters-Turnier hat der frühere Wimbledonsieger Michael Stich derweil einen erstaunlichen Standpunkt eingenommen. Der „Bild“-Zeitung verriet der Lokalmatador, der am Rothenbaum 1993 triumphierte: „Man sollte nicht krampfhaft versuchen, am Masters-Status festzuhalten. Die Fans würden auch kommen, wenn das Turnier eine Nummer kleiner wäre. Dann müsste man eben Stars einkaufen.“

Stich befindet sich mit seinen Ausführungen im krassen Gegensatz zum Deutschen Tennis Bund (DTB), der gegen die Pläne der ATP vor einem US-Gericht klagt. Gestritten wird, weil Hamburg von 2009 an nur noch drittklassig sein soll, während der Masters-Status nach Madrid wechseln soll. Dagegen freilich opponieren auch die Topspieler um Branchenprimus Roger Federer, der ungeachtet der für August erwarteten Entscheidung meinte: „Wenn der Rothenbaum kein Masters mehr wäre, würde das nicht zwangsläufig bedeuten, dass ich hier nicht mehr spielen würde.“

----

stich apparently doesn't like the way the dtb is dealing with the downgrade and opposes the whole court thing in america, basically says that the officials shouldn't be stubborn and let this one go. he thinks it's ok for hamburg to have a smaller event, quote: "people would come anyway, it's all gonna be about prize money then."

roger is quoted as well: "the downgrading wouldn't necessarily mean that i'll skip the tournament."

Okonsky
05-13-2008, 08:52 PM
No more Hamburg MS. 2009 this MS moves to Shanghai, London becomes Shanghai.

~*BGT*~
05-13-2008, 09:07 PM
When would Shanghai be? In fall where Madrid was? On hard court? Carpet?

Okonsky
05-13-2008, 09:16 PM
When would Shanghai be? In fall where Madrid was? On hard court? Carpet?

I don't know. I've heard about these changes a few days ago.

Stensland
05-13-2008, 09:51 PM
I don't know. I've heard about these changes a few days ago.

say what? :confused:

MrExcel
05-13-2008, 10:33 PM
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=99185

26 pages of info there for you...

CyBorg
05-14-2008, 12:25 AM
When would Shanghai be? In fall where Madrid was? On hard court? Carpet?

In the fall. Indoor hard probably.

I'm pissed that there are still three big events planned for the fall. It's way too many. Paris-Bercy should be non-mandatory.

I'm all for changes in the calendar, but these changes have to be sensible. But they're not really changing anything aside from making ridiculous changes like renaming the masters series and attempting to narrow down the number of clay events, meaning more hard court events and if not more at least as many as before. Meanwhile we still have tennis 11 months of the year with mandatory events eclipsing all of these months. What bull.

njnetswill
05-14-2008, 02:10 AM
Having three TMS when all the grand slams are already done for the year makes no sense. Only one clay TMS also makes little sense.

CyBorg
05-14-2008, 06:30 AM
Having three TMS when all the grand slams are already done for the year makes no sense. Only one clay TMS also makes little sense.

Well, no. They never intended to have one clay masters. The plan was two - Rome and Madrid.

But now that they settled it will be three with Monte Carlo as a non-mandatory event.