Who is MENTALLY Able to Compete w/ FEDERER? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Who is MENTALLY Able to Compete w/ FEDERER?

lordmanji
01-14-2007, 05:16 PM
i hate rooting for anyone in a grand slam who is not strong enough mentally to hold his own against federer and not give the match away. players like blake, gasquet, berdych, malisse, haas, nalbandian, davydenko i will never root for in a grand slam because even if they make it to the finals, they'll choke it away.

here's my short list of players that are mentally competitive with the fed and have a chance of beating him:
roddick
nadal
hewitt
murray
djokovic
safin

DrJules
01-14-2007, 05:19 PM
i hate rooting for anyone in a grand slam who is not strong enough mentally to hold his own against federer and not give the match away. players like blake, gasquet, berdych, malisse, haas, nalbandian, davydenko i will never root for in a grand slam because even if they make it to the finals, they'll choke it away.

here's my short list of players that are mentally competitive with the fed and have a chance of beating him:
roddick
nadal
hewitt
murray
djokovic
safin

Nadal and, possibly, Hewitt.

If Roddick or Safin manage to compete it is owing to the quality of their tennis.

Loremaster
01-14-2007, 05:19 PM
eehhhh Rome 2006 final ??:rolleyes:

nobama
01-14-2007, 05:23 PM
What's up with all these non-Fed fans starting pointless threads about him. :shrug:

deliveryman
01-14-2007, 05:56 PM
surely Nalbandian showed grit at the TMC '05???

GlennMirnyi
01-14-2007, 05:58 PM
Kasparov.

RonE
01-14-2007, 06:00 PM
surely Nalbandian showed grit at the TMC '05???

Quite the opposite in fact. He was up two breaks against Roger in the fifth set and Roger had just about thrown in the towel with nothing left in the tank. But Nalby being Nalby proceeded to litter the court with UE's allowing Fed to even out and even get a break up and serve for the match before Nalby remembered how he played to get himself in a winning position.

This match was very nearly the biggest blunder in the history of the game by Nalbandian :o

Fedex
01-14-2007, 06:03 PM
Quite the opposite in fact. He was up two breaks against Roger in the fifth set and Roger had just about thrown in the towel with nothing left in the tank. But Nalby being Nalby proceeded to litter the court with UE's allowing Fed to even out and even get a break up and serve for the match before Nalby remembered how he played to get himself in a winning position.

This match was very nearly the biggest blunder in the history of the game by Nalbandian :o
This is true.

Fedex
01-14-2007, 06:14 PM
Nadal, and maybe Hewitt. Nalbandian can obviously compete, but he is also prone to choking matches away.

pistolmarat
01-14-2007, 06:19 PM
Nadal, Roddick atm, Murray and Djokovic in the nearest future...Hewitt from 2001-2002
Safin is a headcase, I've lost all the hope...:(

jazar
01-14-2007, 06:38 PM
a psychologist

Sjengster
01-14-2007, 07:04 PM
i hate rooting for anyone in a grand slam who is not strong enough mentally to hold his own against federer and not give the match away. players like blake, gasquet, berdych, malisse, haas, nalbandian, davydenko i will never root for in a grand slam because even if they make it to the finals, they'll choke it away.

here's my short list of players that are mentally competitive with the fed and have a chance of beating him:
roddick
nadal
hewitt
murray
djokovic
safin

You've never heard of the bizarre concept of supporting a player based on his own merits? Because you like his game and want him to do well?

Threads like this prove that it's not Federer fans who are most obsessed with him, quite the reverse in fact.

FluffyYellowBall
01-14-2007, 07:04 PM
Im keen on nadal and hewitt and marat with the right head on. Dnt rlly agree with roccick and djocovic. Roddick battled a lotfacing federer like 14 times (inc exhibitions) Its hard when u go into a match against federer for the 13th time and think, what am i gonna do THIS time? As for djokovic, not at the moment.

Skyward
01-14-2007, 07:25 PM
Threads like this prove that it's not Federer fans who are most obsessed with him, quite the reverse in fact.

:yeah:

lordmanji
01-14-2007, 07:45 PM
You've never heard of the bizarre concept of supporting a player based on his own merits? Because you like his game and want him to do well?

Threads like this prove that it's not Federer fans who are most obsessed with him, quite the reverse in fact.

dont pigeonhole me. i like a good match as much as anybody and have cheered for all the players on my blacklist in the past and probably will, just a little bit, in the future. but there comes a point where you have to roll your eyes when nalbandian makes another semi appearance, or blake makes another qf appearance only to lose it. i just might not root for em/want to see them make the final though a little part of me hopes its their breakthrough. contradictory, i know.

Sjengster
01-14-2007, 08:04 PM
I like to support new faces as well, breakthroughs like the one last year are always exciting. But I back these players because I want to see them do well, their careers to advance, ranking go up etc., not because I'm thinking, "Ooh, this one will be harder/easier for Roger."

marcRD
01-14-2007, 08:29 PM
Federer is not mentaly that strong actualy, he has a very fragile mentality and often chokes in matches when he has to serve for the match. In fact in the match against Blake in the USOPEN Federer choked more than Blake, not to mention matches against Nadal, Gasquet, Safin and Nalby. In all matches he served for the match and lost it and lost important tiebreaks aswell as match points. Federer is actualy a great choker in important moments in important matches but his talent is so great he most often avoid beeing in those uncomfortable situations.

The reason most players cant compete with Federer is because they dont have the talent to do so. Nadal is mentaly much stronger than Federer in my opinion and has the talent to make life difficult for Federer. Nadal won the matches in Rome and even RG because of his mental strength, Federer just lost his head in all important points and tiebreaks.

Hewitt is mentaly stronger than Federer but lacks talent to compete against him.

Sjengster
01-14-2007, 08:35 PM
You know, I actually started a thread about Federer's failed attempts to serve out sets and matches, but to say it happens "in all matches" is ridiculous. No-one builds up the kind of record he has over the last three years on talent alone.

Andre'sNo1Fan
01-14-2007, 08:43 PM
Nadal for sure, possibly Hewitt and I believe Roddick is getting there.

No way can anyone think Safin, I love him but Marat cannot even compete mentally with himself, let alone anyone else.

marcRD
01-14-2007, 08:46 PM
You know, I actually started a thread about Federer's failed attempts to serve out sets and matches, but to say it happens "in all matches" is ridiculous. No-one builds up the kind of record he has over the last three years on talent alone.

Did I say it happens always?

Im just saying that in important matches in Federers career it happens too often. If he would have had the mentality of Sampras I am quite sure Federer would have won the real grand slam by now.

Loremaster
01-14-2007, 08:53 PM
I have some picks

- Fernando Verdaco
- P.H Mathieu
- M.Ancic
- N.Petrova
- Fyrstenberg/Matkowski


On of course I can mentallu compete with Roger ;)

lordmanji
01-14-2007, 08:54 PM
Federer is not mentaly that strong actualy, he has a very fragile mentality and often chokes in matches when he has to serve for the match. In fact in the match against Blake in the USOPEN Federer choked more than Blake, not to mention matches against Nadal, Gasquet, Safin and Nalby. In all matches he served for the match and lost it and lost important tiebreaks aswell as match points. Federer is actualy a great choker in important moments in important matches but his talent is so great he most often avoid beeing in those uncomfortable situations.

The reason most players cant compete with Federer is because they dont have the talent to do so. Nadal is mentaly much stronger than Federer in my opinion and has the talent to make life difficult for Federer. Nadal won the matches in Rome and even RG because of his mental strength, Federer just lost his head in all important points and tiebreaks.

Hewitt is mentaly stronger than Federer but lacks talent to compete against him.

you have a point in what you say but i wouldnt read too far beyond it. he'll have nerves which will result in a double fault here or missed point there, but overall federer rebounds from those mental lapses as evidenced by his record in the past four years. look at how he ran over agassi and roddick in the final sets of the us open. those happen much more than when he chokes away a match point on a forehand against nadal.

vincayou
01-14-2007, 08:57 PM
kasparov

guga2120
01-14-2007, 09:00 PM
i hate rooting for anyone in a grand slam who is not strong enough mentally to hold his own against federer and not give the match away. players like blake, gasquet, berdych, malisse, haas, nalbandian, davydenko i will never root for in a grand slam because even if they make it to the finals, they'll choke it away.

here's my short list of players that are mentally competitive with the fed and have a chance of beating him:
roddick
nadal
hewitt
murray
djokovic
safin

Djokovic:confused: , what has he done to make you think that?

In the end Federer is going to pretty much beat anybody, but Nadal and Safin are the 2 that are the least intimadated by him. In the last 2 years thats the only 2 players that have stepped on a court with him and beat him, when he was playing good.

lordmanji
01-14-2007, 09:05 PM
Djokovic:confused: , what has he done to make you think that?

In the end Federer is going to pretty much beat anybody, but Nadal and Safin are the 2 that are the least intimadated by him. In the last 2 years thats the only 2 players that have stepped on a court with him and beat him, when he was playing good.

based on the sole fact that in an interview after his match where he got his butt kicked throroughly by nadal (i forget which tournament), he said that he felt he was hanging right there with nadal dictating and can compete with anyone in the world. its this attitude that is missing from many players on the tour even in the guys i picked on my short list.

for that reason alone (and that he's made good on his promise to compete with the best with a 15 ranking) that i believe djokovic has got the mentality to take on fed.

marcRD
01-14-2007, 09:07 PM
you have a point in what you say but i wouldnt read too far beyond it. he'll have nerves which will result in a double fault here or missed point there, but overall federer rebounds from those mental lapses as evidenced by his record in the past four years. look at how he ran over agassi and roddick in the final sets of the us open. those happen much more than when he chokes away a match point on a forehand against nadal.

That is the problem. As long as he runs over his opponents and plays with all his talent and so on there is no mental problem with Federer. He wins 6-0 in the 4th set because he simply is so much better than his opponents no mental strength is needed. But when he is forced to fight to win and not everything is working so good in important GS matches he simply doesnt have what it takes most often. It is incredible how he over and over again completely chokes in those situations against Safin, Nadal and Nalby. All the famous defeats the last 2 years all have been because of Federer choking in important points in the last set.

All suddenly his serve doesnt work and his backhand becomes unreliable, sometimes even his forehand produces silly errors (Nadal in Rome). He playes without guts and I think he starts to imagine losing the match and is filled with fear. Federer is so blessed with talent he can almost always avoid those situations. The few times he cant avoid these special moments, specialy in important GS matches (in 3 set matches against lesser players he seems to be more cool and maybe not take it so seriously as in GS matches) he looks like another player.

deliveryman
01-14-2007, 09:08 PM
Quite the opposite in fact. He was up two breaks against Roger in the fifth set and Roger had just about thrown in the towel with nothing left in the tank. But Nalby being Nalby proceeded to litter the court with UE's allowing Fed to even out and even get a break up and serve for the match before Nalby remembered how he played to get himself in a winning position.

This match was very nearly the biggest blunder in the history of the game by Nalbandian :o

Regardless, he still showed grit and battled back when it was crunch time, despite blowing a 2 break lead.

Also remember, he came back from 2 sets to love.

silverwhite
01-14-2007, 09:28 PM
Paul-Henri Mathieu

yomeK
01-14-2007, 09:44 PM
Venus Williams
Serena Williams
Martina Hingis
Henin Hardenne

Ernham
01-14-2007, 09:57 PM
How they gonna compete? IQ? ?http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2105519,00.html
I guess the smart money is on a German, Dutch, Italian, Polish or Swedish player.

Loremaster
01-14-2007, 10:11 PM
The author of this test clamis that Men are smarter than Women :worship:

Unfortunatly in Poland there only challanger level players so I don't think the my countryman will beat Roger

DwyaneWade
01-14-2007, 10:29 PM
based on the sole fact that in an interview after his match where he got his butt kicked throroughly by nadal (i forget which tournament), he said that he felt he was hanging right there with nadal dictating and can compete with anyone in the world. its this attitude that is missing from many players on the tour even in the guys i picked on my short list.

for that reason alone (and that he's made good on his promise to compete with the best with a 15 ranking) that i believe djokovic has got the mentality to take on fed.

All that incident suggested to be was Djokovic is delusional ;)

Seriously though you have to like his chutzpah

DwyaneWade
01-14-2007, 10:31 PM
That is the problem. As long as he runs over his opponents and plays with all his talent and so on there is no mental problem with Federer. He wins 6-0 in the 4th set because he simply is so much better than his opponents no mental strength is needed. But when he is forced to fight to win and not everything is working so good in important GS matches he simply doesnt have what it takes most often. It is incredible how he over and over again completely chokes in those situations against Safin, Nadal and Nalby. All the famous defeats the last 2 years all have been because of Federer choking in important points in the last set.

All suddenly his serve doesnt work and his backhand becomes unreliable, sometimes even his forehand produces silly errors (Nadal in Rome). He playes without guts and I think he starts to imagine losing the match and is filled with fear. Federer is so blessed with talent he can almost always avoid those situations. The few times he cant avoid these special moments, specialy in important GS matches (in 3 set matches against lesser players he seems to be more cool and maybe not take it so seriously as in GS matches) he looks like another player.

Marc I made a similar point a few months ago after the US Open about Federer. However, I think I (and yourself in this post) gloss over those matches Federer wasn't at his best but still managed to win (e.g. Halle, Basel against Srichipan, Shanghai against Nalby and Roddick). Granted he isn't the toughest cookie mentally in my book but he is no PHM. On a scale of 1 to 10 mentally he is probably a 7.

deliveryman
01-14-2007, 10:44 PM
I agree, I would say mentally for Federer; it's the weakest part of his game.

R.Federer
01-14-2007, 11:43 PM
You know, I actually started a thread about Federer's failed attempts to serve out sets and matches, but to say it happens "in all matches" is ridiculous. No-one builds up the kind of record he has over the last three years on talent alone.

Mental strength is part of a player's talent as well.

brent-o
01-15-2007, 12:14 AM
surely Nalbandian showed grit at the TMC '05???

Not to mention he was very confidently owning Federer in the first set of their match at Roland Garos 2005 before he got injured.

leng jai
01-15-2007, 06:35 AM
I'd say that Hewitt and Roddick are mentally incapable of winning against Federer. Those defeats have left mental scars that will probably never be repaired.

Its obvious that Nalbandian is mentally capable of beating Federer. I'd say Safin is mentally capable of beating Federer. He rarely plays a poor much against Roger and he has the type of game to trouble him too. I think Haas thinks he can beat Federer, you can tell by the way he plays against Federer. He showed great belief in the AO 4th round match last year. If it came to the crunch however I'm pretty sure he would crumble.

Ernham
01-15-2007, 06:57 AM
Maybe the Dutch can send in Semmy Schilt to "soften" him up a bit and then Haas can finish him off.

More seriously, Haas could probably take Federer, but probably only in the early stages of the tournament before Federer turns on juggernaut mode.

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 07:59 AM
Federer is not mentaly that strong actualy, he has a very fragile mentality

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :retard:

TMJordan
01-15-2007, 08:05 AM
PHM :p

Ernham
01-15-2007, 08:06 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :retard:

I don't agree with that comment either in general without qualification, but, in reality, compared to the rest of his game he is in fact mentally fragile.

leng jai
01-15-2007, 08:10 AM
I don't agree. His mental strength is the BEST part of his game, otherwise he would lose far more often.

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 08:23 AM
I don't agree with that comment either in general without qualification, but, in reality, compared to the rest of his game he is in fact mentally fragile.

Yeah he has to be :rolleyes: being under huge pressure for 3 years, excpected to win every single match, right what a headcase... :rolleyes:

Ernham
01-15-2007, 08:30 AM
I even bolded the freaking text. If anyone thinks mental fortitude is a strength of Federer's relative to all his other abilities, you haven't been watching him. I've lost track of how many times he's nearly lost -- or has lost--- to nobody journymen/rookies because he seems to go on mental vacations. Sometimes he just tunes out.

leng jai
01-15-2007, 08:32 AM
A sign of mental strength is being able to keep it together when things go wrong. Of course you're going to have lapses and bad patches, but its your reactions after them that win/lose you matches.

Apemant
01-15-2007, 08:36 AM
I agree about 95% with marcRD. Federer is a choker, always was, just look at his first couple of years as a pro. But, something I don't see he mentioned is that Federer slowly came to realize just how good he is, and from being aware that he has the talent and ability to beat anyone, he often finds strength to overcome his natural choking mentality. But if someone pushes him really hard, and above all else, believes he can actually beat him, then that choking side of Federer wakes up again. The reason why he doesn't choke away matches more often is because other people are chokers as well, and they are so afraid of Federer (afraid of BEATING him) that they can't close out matches despide Fed's own choking.

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 08:39 AM
I even bolded the freaking text. If anyone thinks mental fortitude is a strength of Federer's relative to all his other abilities, you haven't been watching him. I've lost track of how many times he's nearly lost -- or has lost--- to nobody journymen/rookies because he seems to go on mental vacations. Sometimes he just tunes out.

If he was mentally strong I wonder what would be his W/L record: 250/0 for the past 3 years I guess... :rolleyes:

Ernham
01-15-2007, 08:49 AM
If he was mentally strong I wonder what would be his W/L record: 250/0 for the past 3 years I guess... :rolleyes:

Well, he surely wouldn't have a losing record versus a guy that has a "one-dimensional" playstyle, eh?

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Well, he surely wouldn't have a losing record versus a guy that has a "one-dimensional" playstyle, eh?

Roger had technical problems adapting to Nadal's huge FH topspin (has been figured out since then), nothing to do with mental weaknesses... :)

Ernham
01-15-2007, 09:08 AM
Roger had technical problems adapting to Nadal's huge FH topspin (has been figured out since then), nothing to do with mental weaknesses... :)

Meh. Yet flakey head cases like Berdych and Blake have no problem with it, eh? I don't have the time nor want to deal with fanboy tennis cranks. Good luck on planet fed; here's hoping they work out the whole getting oxygen into the atmosphere.

Apemant
01-15-2007, 09:10 AM
Yeah he has to be :rolleyes: being under huge pressure for 3 years, excpected to win every single match, right what a headcase... :rolleyes:

He is expected to win every single match for a reason: because he could potentially do just that ;) . But, I agree, he is constantly under the enormous pressure, and it would shatter him if he had really weak psyche. Obviously, he is very resilient despite being shaky. He recovers from bad losses rather amazingly. He is not an oak type of mental toughness; more like a willow type. Bends, but doesn't break. He isn't fearless, yet his belief in his own abilities almost always prevails.

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 09:13 AM
I don't have the time nor want to deal with fanboy tennis cranks. Good luck on planet fed;

I wish you good luck on planet fed hatred as well ;)

Apemant
01-15-2007, 09:50 AM
That is so poetic. :sobbing: I'm going to start calling Rogi "Willow." :hearts:

Hmm I'm unable to guess if you are mocking me? :)

Anyway, don't you have this feeling that Rogi IS, in fact, rather shaky? I watch him and I know that he has all the weapons to win, no matter who's on the other side. And yes, he often does that (veeery often :devil: ) but somehow it still looks so fragile (except when he's playing his known pigeons who don't even dream of beating him). People say he is 'cold' - I guess because he doesn't pump himself right in the face of his opponent - but I think there are storms inside, he is just that type of a person who likes to control it and keep it within himself. Introvert. But if you consider his body language and rare facial expressions you can clearly see how often he feels shaken.

Ernham
01-15-2007, 09:59 AM
I wish you good luck on planet fed hatred as well ;)

Fed is my second favorite player. It doesn't mean I need to be so clueless and fanboyish in dealing with him. Maybe you need to go find a dictionary and figure out what "relative" means?

Apemant
01-15-2007, 10:04 AM
Fed is my second favorite player. It doesn't mean I need to be so clueless and fanboyish in dealing with him. Maybe you need to go find a dictionary and figure out what "relative" means?

Out of curiosity, which one is the 1st? :D

oz_boz
01-15-2007, 10:09 AM
A lot of guys can compete mentally with Roger. Unfortunately, all of them except Nadal don't have enough game :p

marcRD
01-15-2007, 01:03 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :retard:

Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).

RonE
01-15-2007, 01:12 PM
Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).


Very true. I share this sentiment and if he can somehow pull off a win like that when he is in a fifth set in a grand slam match with his back against the wall against a Nadal or Safin it will only put him even further up in the world's esteem. This seems to be the last hurdle for him to overcome to truly complete the package in every sense of the word.

bokehlicious
01-15-2007, 01:14 PM
Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).


I'm really wondering what kind of a player would Federer have been if he wasn't such a headcase :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Winning day in day out for the past 3 years IS ACTUALLY a sign of mental strength !!

Ernham
01-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Out of curiosity, which one is the 1st? :D

Lilo! (it's a joke, a spin on the word "willow", a movie from the 80s. It's my moniker for O. Rochus.

denisgiann
01-15-2007, 03:54 PM
Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).

Ηe doesnt have to win the hard way man.He is too talented and too consistent for that.He doesnt have to trash himself to win a match.His shots seem effortless but that isnt because he is bored but cause his tech is so damn good.I prefer to see Fed glide on the court than see Nadal trashing himself and divebombing just to win a single point.I know that to some extent this is also entertaining and amusing but you have to respect more the man who doesnt have to play like this.Winning while making everything look easy is a true sign of greatness.

marcRD
01-15-2007, 10:49 PM
Ηe doesnt have to win the hard way man.He is too talented and too consistent for that.He doesnt have to trash himself to win a match.His shots seem effortless but that isnt because he is bored but cause his tech is so damn good.I prefer to see Fed glide on the court than see Nadal trashing himself and divebombing just to win a single point.I know that to some extent this is also entertaining and amusing but you have to respect more the man who doesnt have to play like this.Winning while making everything look easy is a true sign of greatness.

I agree, I also prefer Federers artistery to Nadals fighting ability. But sometimes Federers artistery isnt enought and when this happens he has to have the champions mark to find a way to win those matches anyway. So far I have not seen that in Federer.

richie21
01-15-2007, 10:59 PM
Meh. Yet flakey head cases like Berdych and Blake have no problem with it, eh? I don't have the time nor want to deal with fanboy tennis cranks. Good luck on planet fed; here's hoping they work out the whole getting oxygen into the atmosphere.

because they never play Nadal on clay :o

I'm really wondering what kind of a player would Federer have been if he wasn't such a headcase :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Winning day in day out for the past 3 years IS ACTUALLY a sign of mental strength !!

not if you are much much better than all the other players :o

Federerhingis
01-15-2007, 11:17 PM
Nadal and, possibly, Hewitt.

If Roddick or Safin manage to compete it is owing to the quality of their tennis.

Correct, yes Roddick has some fight but if Fed is playing near his best and is derailing Roddick in a match his game goes down and mentally he gets too spent.

Fedex
01-15-2007, 11:22 PM
Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).

Yes, Federer is a mental midget, and that's why he's won 9 slams.

Howard
01-15-2007, 11:32 PM
Nadal for sure and Safin if his head is right, mainly because those are the only guys who have beaten Fed in a Grand Slam in the past three years. Deep down, I doubt that anyone one else believes they can. I’d put Roddick a step below those two, and while Djokovic is a cocky guy, he hasn’t been close enough to a GS final to even be on the list.

Fedex
01-16-2007, 12:01 AM
I really woulden't think I would need to make a case for Federer being mentally tough, as it would seem obvious that he is, but I'm going to anyway.
Winning tough 5 set matches is not the only sign of a person that is mentally tough. Safin is often regarded as a mentally weak player on these boards, yet he has an outstanding 5 set record. Why is that? Can someone explain to me how he can be 'mentally weak', when he's won the vast majority of his 5 set matches, and that is apparently the only way to determine mental toughness?
For one thing, Federer hasn't played many 5 set matches over the past 3 years, I believe he has played 6, with a 3-3 record. He's lost some close matches, sure, but its not like he went away in the 5th set in any of those losses. In the AO 05 semi,he was down an early break in the 5th set, fought back to get the match back on level terms, saved 6 match points in the process, and fought valliantly to the very last point, in which he dove for a backhand down the line, only for Safin to put it away on the next shot. In the 5 set loss to Nalbandian, he was down 0-4, 30-0 in the 5th set on Nalbandian's serve. He was totally, and completely out of this match, and somehow got both breaks of serve back, and actually was two points away from pulling off a miracle comeback, serving for the match at 6-5, 30-0. He showed the heart of a champion again in this match, but fell in the end. The Rome Final was the only match that he blew, and really should have won. You want mental toughness? How about that 5 set USO QF Match against Agassi? This was his first USO quarterfinal, and he had to battle extremely windy conditions in those final two sets, conditions which definetly favored Agassi. He had to deal with a raucous New York crowd of more than 20,000 against him. That certainly isn't easy for anyone to deal with. He was down a break in the 3rd in the Wimbledon 2004 final, but made the necessary asjustments to turn the match in his favor. The USO 05 Final? How about being one set all, and down 2-4, 0-30, against Agassi? Was that an easy win? You could take his 4th Round, QF, SF, and final matches at the Australian Open last year. In every match, he lost atleast one set, and in the final he had come back from a 5-7, 0-2, 15-40 deficit. Surely Baghdatis must have thrown the match. Federer didn't earn that win at all.
Federer has been involved in many close matches, and while most of them aren't 5 setters, he still wins the vast majority of them. How about the pressure of being number one in the world? If Federer doesn't win atleast 2 slams this year, his year will be considered a dissapointing season by many. Every year the media talks about him possibly winning the slam. Did they ever do that with Sampras? The expectations for him are so high, that every time he steps on to the court, he's under extreme pressure to win. And he handles the pressure better than almost anyone that I've ever seen.
I'm sorry, but you dont win 9 slams and stay number one in the world for over 150 weeks on talent alone. In tennis, half the game is mental. And no one is more cool under pressure than Federer. End of story.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 03:15 AM
Could you please tell me Federers 5 set record and tell me if you think it is bad because of his physic or mental weakness. Roger Federer wins many close matches against weak players in small tournaments but when was the last time he won an important match in a GS or master cup with a heroic win.

The kind of heroic wins we see all the time from Nadal and Hewitt. Ofcourse Federer didnt have many chances, but when he had he choke badly. In RG he could have done it twice, in AO 2005, against Nalby in master cup.

It is truly incredible that such an amazing player, the greatest of all time in my opinion cant show that mark of a champion and rise in those special ocasions. Serve a little better, make less UES and go for incredible shots in difficult moments. Instead in all his clay matches against Nadal, against Safin in AO and NAlby his 1st serve completely disappeared, he struggled more with his backhand and didnt go for those difficult shots he normaly goes for.

Agassi, Sampras, Nadal, Hewitt all rise in those occasions. They become better players in that 5th set or decisive 4th set tiebreak. Not Federer, he gets afraid and doesnt go for it.

That is his true weakness. My opinion will only change when I will see Federer win some heroic 5 set victories in grand slams (not against Haas, but against Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin or Nadal).

In order to extricate oneself heroically out of those pits or pressure situations that you speak of and which you believe expose the true mettle of a player you must first play in such a way that you arrive in such a perilous situation; you must dig the hole out of which you will heroically climb. This constitutes either: playing badly or, being outplayed. Now it is a virtue of Federer that whether through his skills or through a strength of character you seem so unwilling to attribute to him, he manages to avoid digging holes altogether. He digs other people’s graves for them. You seem to be asking your question only from one vantage point. I believe just as thought provoking an inquiry would be to ask why the Nadals and Hewitts of the world can’t, so to speak, “seal the deal” quicker in their matches and spare themselves much unnecessary toil and trouble. Why don’t you ask: Why don’t these paragons of mental fortitude beat their opponents with as much ease and élan as their supposed mental inferior, Federer?

Think of life in our world. Do you go in debt before you become fiscally responsible? Should we toast the mentally strong spendthrifts of the world who go broke seemingly every other day yet through magnificent willpower file for chapter 7, start pinching their pennies, and yet once more sneak out of the lion’s den to breathe clean air once more? The name of the game in staying on top in life is prevention: You eat healthy so you don’t need to play Russian roulette with the latest miracle drug; You drive safely so you don’t have to miraculously steer your way out of a collision at the last instant or, if you crash, increase your premiums. In my view, the man who takes care of business before it gets threatening is more admirable. A tennis analyst should wonder why these inveterate fighters get into all these five setters, all of these potential disasters waiting for a feat of epic proportions, and praise Federer for having the circumspection to avoid them.
And just speaking in tennis terms, you compromise the persuasiveness of your argument when you add Agassi to your list of mental giants. This is the guy who poached on the AO because he couldn’t win anywherelse. Examining both careers frankly, one can see many more chokejobs on the American’s then the Swiss’s end, disregarding their early years on the tour. The reason why, by the time of Agassi’s 20 year career, Federer had already eclipsed him in the Grand Slam column is because of his superior mental aspects. Just look at Andre’s final encounters with Federer. Their tennis masters cup round robin was won by Federer due to his mental game. Their meeting in the 2004 Indian wells semifinal was again won by Federer due to his mental game. He recovered from an opening set loss to grab a quick break in the second and hold on to it. In the third Agassi pressured him incessantly and got a break point, which Federer saved with a great dtl forehand winner. In the next game Federer steadied himself and made a great get off a lackadaisical Agassi volley. The resulting momentum led to a break and he served the final set out to love. We see the same pattern recapitulated again in their encounter at the 2004 US Open. In incredibly blustery conditions-near gale-, conditions that were acknowledged to be beneficial to Agassi and detrimental to Federer, who is a worse wind player, Federer was the one with the mental strength to deal with the elements and capture the fifth set break. Need I say more?

Or let us look at Lleyton Hewitt. In their 2004 Australian Open 4th round match Lleyton won the first set and looked to have the match well on his terms. But Federer had the brains to tap into his tactical evaluative function and start to bring the slice into play frequently. Lleyton, incapable of dealing with this tactical switchup hit neutral shots which were begging for Federer to spank for winners, and promptly went down in four. Then at their 2004 Wimbledon quarterfinal Lleyton had, in a remarkable feat of mental strength won the second set tiebreaker. What did Federer do? He redoubled his efforts and buckled down, bageling the Aussie in the next set. Then in set four both held serve until Hewitt broke. Federer broke back in the next game to level things and hit several great shots at 5-4 including a great inside out forehand to bring up multiple break points, and Hewitt, unable to deal with the pressure, unlike his “mentally fragile” opponent blinked, and shockingly double faulted on match point. Do you see where I am going with this? Someone with the times and energy could continue in this vein all day. Next time don’t make blanket and generalized statements and actually look at matches these mental giants have played.

Oh yeah and Nadal: You know part of tennis is dealing with the people you should beat, the peons, and not just the heavy weights like Federer. After all, if you can’t deal with little fish who have a marked disadvantage in nearly all substantive qualities as a tennis player, how tough can your noggin be anyway? And, lo and behold we see that Nadal lost 12 matches in 2006. Do you know how many matches Federer lost from 2004-2006? 15. I know you will ignorantly assign the difference to a gulf in talent, but it isn’t that simple. Where was Nadal’s mental strength in his many encounters with Blake, a guy he has played multiple times and yet loses to in exactly the same way every time. Where were his fighting qualities in Madrid when he was bested by Berdych yet another time and on his home soil? Where was his fight when he squandered multiple set points against Youzhny at the US Open? He went down oh so meekly in the fourth set. Getting breadsticked was such stirring proof of his moral fiber. What happened to him in the 2nd set of the Wimbledon Final when he choked his service game away to that mental flake?...what was his name…oh yeah Federer.

Sjengster
01-16-2007, 03:28 AM
See, the conquering hero comes! Ah Torturelante, your return makes the arseclown picture complete. Have at Rafa=FedKilla, and let the best man win!

tripb19
01-16-2007, 03:30 AM
Tennis is serious business.

The internet is serious business.

Tennis + the internet = very serious business.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 03:36 AM
See, the conquering hero comes! Ah Torturelante, your return makes the arseclown picture complete. Have at Rafa=FedKilla, and let the best man win!

Ah, an enlightened individual come to praise my handiwork! I know you'll be sleeping late wondering if I did my rafatard counterpart in. You can count on me. But childish sarcasm aside, did you at least attempt to read my admittedly long winded post before you posted your witty repartee? I thought it actually contained a nugget of sense within it but maybe that's just me;)

Sjengster
01-16-2007, 03:39 AM
I'm sure there were nuggets of sense, but sometimes window-dressing becomes so excessive that it becomes the window itself.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 03:45 AM
I'm sure there were nuggets of sense, but sometimes window-dressing becomes so excessive that it becomes the window itself.

And this "nugget" of wisdom comes from personal experience?

Sjengster
01-16-2007, 03:47 AM
True wisdom is shown not in experience but in practice.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 03:49 AM
True wisdom is shown not in experience but in practice.

You must really like chinese food.

Sjengster
01-16-2007, 03:56 AM
However did you guess?

The greatest food a man can have is the nourishment of knowledge.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 04:01 AM
However did you guess?

The greatest food a man can have is the nourishment of knowledge.

I'm guessing you went for the hamburgers instead. I can't blame you; a good char-grilled burger is irresistible.

Sjengster
01-16-2007, 04:02 AM
Ignorance will make burgers of us all in the end.

Tourmalante
01-16-2007, 04:11 AM
Ignorance will make burgers of us all in the end.

It was a pleasure reading these moving aphorisms. I can only pray the world may take example from your tutelage; only then perhaps can a terrible fate for humanity be avoided.

I am now going into lurker mode until my ire is roused. Parents please keep your young children under lock and key.

Apemant
01-16-2007, 08:22 AM
I think there are more than just one aspect of 'mental strength' or 'mental weakness'.

When I say that Federer is a choker, I don't mean that he is 'mentally weak'. I use that term for people who easily give up, and Federer is obviously not one of them. Being a choker doesn't neccessarily mean that you easily give up, i.e. that you are mentally 'weak'. It just means that you are often afraid of something (either winning or losing) and that it shows in your game, i.e. you miss easy shots more often, your 1st serve % drops and so on. A choker can still have many other mental virtues apart of that one flaw. For example, it is quite possible to be both a fighter AND a choker. Paul Henry Matthieu comes to mind.

Federer is obviously shaky at moments, but that doesn't mean he will just give up. On the contrary, most often he will keep fighting regardless of fear; one could say that constitutes true courage, namely, to feel fear but keep going despite of it. Having no fear is often a sign of absence of reason, not the presence of courage. Fear is a normal human reaction to danger in every sense of the word.

almouchie
01-16-2007, 08:36 AM
Nalby like Haas, & Malisse are players that havent done well in grandslams or won any
mainly due to their mental side
the few remaining contenders dont have much of an advantage in their records with federer
if anyone is going to beat him, its more likely the younger crop gasquet, djokovic, berdyech, & of course nadal

federer has not been playing well this year, & this is as good a chance to topple him early in grandslam
he has a favorable draw though

Rafa = Fed Killa
01-16-2007, 01:00 PM
Ah Tourmalante.

Has Roger Skywalker beat the evil empire yet. Your last rant made some sense, have you finally got the mental attention you so desperately needed.

The messiah of MTF has spoken.

Gaudio2004
08-14-2009, 11:55 PM
Add Tsonga to the list, he doesn't seem to be intimidated by Federer, he was serving better than Federer in BOTH of today's tie-breaks.

connectolove
08-15-2009, 01:23 AM
Nadal is the only one that has shown it over and over again.

abraxas21
08-15-2009, 01:29 AM
everybody is capable obviously. especially the ones in the top 20.

abraxas21
12-29-2010, 06:30 PM
And Monfils, a.k.a. the mental giant from France. Only known player to have saved 5 MP against Fed in a single match.

Serenidad
12-30-2010, 10:26 AM
This thread definitely highlights this weak era.

BTW the answer is Brands.

Blackbriar
12-30-2010, 06:59 PM
This thread definitely highlights this weak era.

BTW the answer is Brands.

Brands would choke against a Ball machine.

Roger the Dodger
12-30-2010, 07:00 PM
In order to extricate oneself heroically out of those pits or pressure situations that you speak of and which you believe expose the true mettle of a player you must first play in such a way that you arrive in such a perilous situation; you must dig the hole out of which you will heroically climb. This constitutes either: playing badly or, being outplayed. Now it is a virtue of Federer that whether through his skills or through a strength of character you seem so unwilling to attribute to him, he manages to avoid digging holes altogether. He digs other peopleís graves for them. You seem to be asking your question only from one vantage point. I believe just as thought provoking an inquiry would be to ask why the Nadals and Hewitts of the world canít, so to speak, ďseal the dealĒ quicker in their matches and spare themselves much unnecessary toil and trouble. Why donít you ask: Why donít these paragons of mental fortitude beat their opponents with as much ease and ťlan as their supposed mental inferior, Federer?

Think of life in our world. Do you go in debt before you become fiscally responsible? Should we toast the mentally strong spendthrifts of the world who go broke seemingly every other day yet through magnificent willpower file for chapter 7, start pinching their pennies, and yet once more sneak out of the lionís den to breathe clean air once more? The name of the game in staying on top in life is prevention: You eat healthy so you donít need to play Russian roulette with the latest miracle drug; You drive safely so you donít have to miraculously steer your way out of a collision at the last instant or, if you crash, increase your premiums. In my view, the man who takes care of business before it gets threatening is more admirable. A tennis analyst should wonder why these inveterate fighters get into all these five setters, all of these potential disasters waiting for a feat of epic proportions, and praise Federer for having the circumspection to avoid them.
And just speaking in tennis terms, you compromise the persuasiveness of your argument when you add Agassi to your list of mental giants. This is the guy who poached on the AO because he couldnít win anywherelse. Examining both careers frankly, one can see many more chokejobs on the Americanís then the Swissís end, disregarding their early years on the tour. The reason why, by the time of Agassiís 20 year career, Federer had already eclipsed him in the Grand Slam column is because of his superior mental aspects. Just look at Andreís final encounters with Federer. Their tennis masters cup round robin was won by Federer due to his mental game. Their meeting in the 2004 Indian wells semifinal was again won by Federer due to his mental game. He recovered from an opening set loss to grab a quick break in the second and hold on to it. In the third Agassi pressured him incessantly and got a break point, which Federer saved with a great dtl forehand winner. In the next game Federer steadied himself and made a great get off a lackadaisical Agassi volley. The resulting momentum led to a break and he served the final set out to love. We see the same pattern recapitulated again in their encounter at the 2004 US Open. In incredibly blustery conditions-near gale-, conditions that were acknowledged to be beneficial to Agassi and detrimental to Federer, who is a worse wind player, Federer was the one with the mental strength to deal with the elements and capture the fifth set break. Need I say more?

Or let us look at Lleyton Hewitt. In their 2004 Australian Open 4th round match Lleyton won the first set and looked to have the match well on his terms. But Federer had the brains to tap into his tactical evaluative function and start to bring the slice into play frequently. Lleyton, incapable of dealing with this tactical switchup hit neutral shots which were begging for Federer to spank for winners, and promptly went down in four. Then at their 2004 Wimbledon quarterfinal Lleyton had, in a remarkable feat of mental strength won the second set tiebreaker. What did Federer do? He redoubled his efforts and buckled down, bageling the Aussie in the next set. Then in set four both held serve until Hewitt broke. Federer broke back in the next game to level things and hit several great shots at 5-4 including a great inside out forehand to bring up multiple break points, and Hewitt, unable to deal with the pressure, unlike his ďmentally fragileĒ opponent blinked, and shockingly double faulted on match point. Do you see where I am going with this? Someone with the times and energy could continue in this vein all day. Next time donít make blanket and generalized statements and actually look at matches these mental giants have played.

Oh yeah and Nadal: You know part of tennis is dealing with the people you should beat, the peons, and not just the heavy weights like Federer. After all, if you canít deal with little fish who have a marked disadvantage in nearly all substantive qualities as a tennis player, how tough can your noggin be anyway? And, lo and behold we see that Nadal lost 12 matches in 2006. Do you know how many matches Federer lost from 2004-2006? 15. I know you will ignorantly assign the difference to a gulf in talent, but it isnít that simple. Where was Nadalís mental strength in his many encounters with Blake, a guy he has played multiple times and yet loses to in exactly the same way every time. Where were his fighting qualities in Madrid when he was bested by Berdych yet another time and on his home soil? Where was his fight when he squandered multiple set points against Youzhny at the US Open? He went down oh so meekly in the fourth set. Getting breadsticked was such stirring proof of his moral fiber. What happened to him in the 2nd set of the Wimbledon Final when he choked his service game away to that mental flake?...what was his nameÖoh yeah Federer.

This poster must have been a legend of MTF yore. Great read and nice perspectives on how Nadal was viewed before 2007.

Nadull_tard
12-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Nowadays even my pubes are capable to compete with him.

Corey Feldman
12-30-2010, 11:42 PM
Nowadays even my pubes are capable to compete with him.that why you are out there making millions eh

you and Mats Wilander

fast_clay
12-31-2010, 12:14 AM
Darth Fed has had the field mind tricked till Uncle Toni showed him up... the intimidating Uncle Toni was able to talk to young rafa while young rafa was playing Darth Fed in a match... Darth Fed couldnt believe that anyone would would be so bold... but Uncle Toni was bold... and intimidating too with his large 4.5kg/day olive intake...

an oily fruit loving uncle is what it took to break Darth Fed's spell upon the world...

Ibracadabra
12-31-2010, 12:50 AM
Del potro is the greatest mental giant.