And the Mickey Mouse tournaments are... (tournaments that will use the RR format) [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

And the Mickey Mouse tournaments are... (tournaments that will use the RR format)

Lee
10-26-2006, 04:35 AM
http://www.atptennis.com/en/newsandscores/news/2006/robin.asp

ATP Outlines Round Robin Format Trials for 2007

* Thirteen ATP tournaments selected for round robin testing

* Three formats to be monitored to determine benefits for fans, broadcasters, others

* Sunday Starts also will be featured at several of the selected tournaments

The ATP announced today that it will test three different round robin formats at select circuit events in 2007. Round robin format is one of a series of on-court enhancements for 2007 outlined during the US Open to improve the tournament experience for players, tennis fans, broadcasters and event promoters.

Round robin—where players are placed into groups or pools, and the top player in each group then moves on to the knockout phase of the tournament—increases spectators’ chances of seeing their favorite stars, as one loss in a round-robin pool does not automatically eliminate a player, and also improves scheduling for broadcasters and tournament promotion. Round robin has been a staple of the Tennis Masters Cup circuit finale and ARAG ATP World Team Championship but not utilized at any other ATP tournament. The 13 tournaments chosen subject to final approval by the ATP will be held on different surfaces in different countries throughout the 2007 season, starting the first week in Adelaide, Australia.

“Our research with fans, tournaments and media indicate a preference for round robin,” said Etienne de Villiers (pictured above), ATP Executive Chairman & President. “We are committed to grow the appeal of the sport and get more fans to sample and enjoy. We are going to test different formats and see which ones we will introduce and into what type of event for 2008. It is the 'do it, try it, fix it' approach. I recognise some players and media are opposed or indifferent. But we will diligently build our research based on the results and do what's best for the fans. You live or die by your what your consumer does, not by what critics say or feel.”

ATP World No. 2 Rafael Nadal said: “I have said it at our meetings with Etienne, I think this is a great idea. Finally we really move forward and we do something really good for our sport. This will be good for our tournaments, for us the players and especially for fans and television since they will be able to have and see their favorite players more than once for sure.”

The ATP will conduct its one-year trial testing the three following formats:

· A 24-player round robin draw consisting of 8 groups of 3 players. Each player will then play two guaranteed matches in the round robin stage. The winner from each group will advance to the knockout round (quarterfinals), and then will play out the tournament per a traditional single-elimination format.

· A 32-player round robin draw consisting of a 16-player “play-off” with the 8 winners joining 16 other players to make up the 8 groups of 3 players. Each player will then play two guaranteed matches in the round robin stage. The winner from each group will advance to the knockout round (quarterfinals), and then will play out the tournament per a traditional single-elimination format.

· A 48-player round robin draw consisting of 16 groups of 3 players. Each player will then play two guaranteed matches in the round robin stage. The winner from each group will advance to the knockout round (round of 16), and then will play out the tournament per a traditional single-elimination format.

Many of the tournaments will be held over eight days and will begin not on the traditional Monday but on Sunday, when ATP tournaments will feature singles and doubles matches, pro-ams, charity events and family activities as part of the ATP’s plan to transform men’s professional tennis into an integrated entertainment business based on what makes sense to fans, players, tournaments and media.

Additionally, two ATP Masters Series tournaments have been chosen to utilize a Sunday Start program in 2007 (though ATP Masters Series will not test the round robin format). Those two Masters events are the Masters Series Monte-Carlo (April 15-22, 2007) and Rogers Masters in Montreal (August 5-12, 2007).

The 13 tournaments testing round robin in 2007, subject to final ATP and tournament agreement, will be (listed chronologically):


· Next Generation Adelaide International; Adelaide, Australia; 32-player round robin; hard court outdoors
· Movistar Open; Viña del Mar, Chile; 24-player round robin; clay court outdoors
· Delray Beach International Tennis Championships; Delray Beach, Florida; 32-player round robin; hard court outdoors
· Copa Telmex; Buenos Aires, Argentina; 32-player round robin; clay court outdoors
· Tennis Channel Open; Las Vegas, Nevada; 32-player round robin; hard court outdoors
· Estoril Open; Estoril, Portugal; 32-player round robin; clay court outdoors
· The Stella Artois Championships; London, United Kingdom; 48-player round robin; grass court outdoors
· Catella Swedish Open; Båstad, Sweden; 32-player round robin; clay court outdoors
· Campbell’s Hall of Fame Tennis Championships; Newport, Rhode Island; 24-player round robin; grass court outdoors
· RCA Championships; Indianapolis, Indiana; 32-player round robin; hard court outdoors
· ATP Studena Croatia Open, Umag, Croatia; 32-player round robin; clay court outdoors
· Legg Mason Tennis Classic; Washington, D.C.; 48-player round robin; hard court outdoors
· If Stockholm Open; Stockholm, Sweden; 32-player round robin; hard court indoors


"This is a great day for tennis," said Mark Baron, tournament director of the Delray Beach International Tennis Championships. "It's exciting for Delray Beach to open the 2007 tennis season in the United States by rolling out this new round robin format. We have been discussing creative ways to make our sport even more exciting and this format delivers a chance to test some of those ideas. Our fans are the big winners because they'll have the opportunity to see our marquee players at least twice. The round robin portion of the tournament will be exciting to follow as players jockey for positions into the quarterfinals."

Lee
10-26-2006, 04:37 AM
ATP World No. 2 Rafael Nadal said: “I have said it at our meetings with Etienne, I think this is a great idea. Finally we really move forward and we do something really good for our sport. This will be good for our tournaments, for us the players and especially for fans and television since they will be able to have and see their favorite players more than once for sure.”


The article and headline only mention Nadal's support. Guess they don't want to mention Federer anymore :o

artlinkletter
10-26-2006, 04:47 AM
I think they want to put a positive spin on the whole thing. Had they included Roger's remarks, they would put across the fact that some people ARE opposed to the idea.

rmb6687
10-26-2006, 04:52 AM
Damn it...for some reason I knew Legg Mason would be one of them. At least it still has a pretty large draw...and hopefully Marat will come again.

:shrug:

atheneglaukopis
10-26-2006, 04:57 AM
LA escapes...for now.

El Legenda
10-26-2006, 05:01 AM
F*ck You Atp

Hendu
10-26-2006, 05:02 AM
Copa Telmex :speakles:

I didn't expect this for ATP Buenos Aires.

:awww:

Viña del Mar will suffer Round Robin too.

I hope this experiment is for the better.

Although, I doubt it.

"A 32-player round robin draw consisting of a 16-player “play-off” with the 8 winners joining 16 other players to make up the 8 groups of 3 players."

Ok, what the hell is that? :confused:

the other two RR formats are simple, but this one is kind of odd.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 05:22 AM
I am not sure I am getting it right.

Buenos Aires and Viña del Mar until 2006 had a Draw Size of 32.

But with these systems, Buenos Aires would keep the field of 32 players but Viña would have it reduced to 24. Am I right?

:confused:

Deboogle!.
10-26-2006, 05:28 AM
I....... want to cry.

Fee
10-26-2006, 05:54 AM
So wait... Nadal has just said that he is fatigued from playing so much this year, yet we are supposed to buy that he supports the round robin format that could require him to play even more? Something doesn't seem right there...

It will be interesting to see what happens with these tournaments. Newport will be reduced to a 24 player draw, but I bet it still ends up with a Challenger level cut off ;)

rrfnpump
10-26-2006, 05:58 AM
phew, not Stuttgart :yeah: :banana:

stupid RR :fiery:

Hendu
10-26-2006, 06:04 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens with these tournaments. Newport will be reduced to a 24 player draw, but I bet it still ends up with a Challenger level cut off ;)

Yes.

Newport and Viña del Mar are the only ones with the 24 player draw.

And Queens and Washington the only ones with the 48 player field.

aussie_fan
10-26-2006, 06:06 AM
· A 32-player round robin draw consisting of a 16-player “play-off” with the 8 winners joining 16 other players to make up the 8 groups of 3 players. Each player will then play two guaranteed matches in the round robin stage. The winner from each group will advance to the knockout round (quarterfinals), and then will play out the tournament per a traditional single-elimination format.

Why don't they just make 8 groups of 4 and have the winners of each group play each other, that format they have explained really doesn't make much sense.

Bloody hell this is annoying, now less chance of a few unknown aussies to do well in adelaide.

Listen to your fans, stick with the knockout system ATP!

krystlel
10-26-2006, 06:08 AM
Copa Telmex :speakles:
[B]"A 32-player round robin draw consisting of a 16-player “play-off” with the 8 winners joining 16 other players to make up the 8 groups of 3 players."

Ok, what the hell is that? :confused:
16 players have a bye while the other 16 play one match. The winners from the last round plus those that had a bye make the round robin groups. The winners from the round robin groups get to the quarter-finals.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 06:15 AM
16 players have a bye while the other 16 play one match. The winners from the last round plus those that had a bye make the round robin groups. The winners from the round robin groups get to the quarter-finals.

Yes I know ;)

I was just critizising that RR system.

It sucks.

p.s. I don't think Chilean fans will be happy with their Draw reduced to 24... even if they get to see the best players at least twice.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:26 AM
Cool Båstad is a RR event, that has made my day for sure.

This just means the players that lose will have to spend an extra day at the beach, Pepes Bodega and other nightclubs in the town during the event.

See I found a positive in the RR situation.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 06:33 AM
[url]
The 13 tournaments testing round robin in 2007, subject to final ATP and tournament agreement, will be (listed chronologically):

Maybe there is a miracle, and they don't agree... :angel:

Björki
10-26-2006, 06:42 AM
damn Båstad and Stockholm. This sucks :fiery:

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:46 AM
This has not been totally approved as of yet, as the article says.

It seems to be the tournament list of crash test dummies for the MM RR format.

Beforehand
10-26-2006, 07:33 AM
Stella Artois?

Really? If I was Queen's Club, I'd give them a total "fuck off".

rmb6687
10-26-2006, 07:47 AM
16 players have a bye while the other 16 play one match. The winners from the last round plus those that had a bye make the round robin groups. The winners from the round robin groups get to the quarter-finals.

thanks for the explanation, i was very :confused:

t0x
10-26-2006, 08:08 AM
NOOOOO!!! Queens :(

DAMN YOU ATP!!!

Jeez, I can't understand how they think people will actually like this system. This message board being a perfect example - tons of tennis fans, 99% of people hate Round Robin. Well done ATP!

RonE
10-26-2006, 08:12 AM
So wait... Nadal has just said that he is fatigued from playing so much this year, yet we are supposed to buy that he supports the round robin format that could require him to play even more? Something doesn't seem right there...

It will be interesting to see what happens with these tournaments. Newport will be reduced to a 24 player draw, but I bet it still ends up with a Challenger level cut off ;)

RR = Roasting Reprieve for Nadal :o

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:13 AM
Jeez, I can't understand how they think people will actually like this system. This message board being a perfect example - tons of tennis fans, 99% of people hate Round Robin. Well done ATP!

No, you mean the ATD the Association of Tournament Directors.

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 08:14 AM
Well, it's not like Newport will suffer much.

But they used some big tournaments with great history next to that (Queen's, Estoril, Umag). We will see what happens.

nobama
10-26-2006, 08:21 AM
The article and headline only mention Nadal's support. Guess they don't want to mention Federer anymore :oMr. Disney admitted Roger's not keen on it. And notice he doesn't play any of the tournaments testing this out. ;)

nobama
10-26-2006, 08:28 AM
I....... want to cry.Has Andy given his views on RR? I can't remember ever reading if he was pro or con. The sad thing is enough players like the idea or are willing to try it out which allows the ATP to move forward with it. :sad:

Fed-Express
10-26-2006, 08:43 AM
Yes mirkaland, that is kinda funny. Roger hasn't played any of these thirteen tournaments in years, most of them he has never played. I guess the tournaments he plays want to keep him. Well, shows that he has considerable influence :yeah:

Fed-Express
10-26-2006, 08:58 AM
The sad thing is enough players like the idea or are willing to try it out which allows the ATP to move forward with it. :sad:

We will find out soon enough whether the majority of the players support RR. If that should be the case I guess we will have to deal with it :(

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 09:01 AM
We will find out soon enough whether the majority of the players support RR. If that should be the case I guess we will have to deal with it :(

Read the thread has the ATP changed since 2000 and you will see it hasn't really.

It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and the TD's. If it's that good they should go and form their own elite tour and tour around like the Harlem Globetrotters.

Björki
10-26-2006, 09:09 AM
GWH do you mean it's not 100% sure it will happend in Bastad and Stockholm?

Fed-Express
10-26-2006, 09:10 AM
Yes, I read that interview some days ago when you posted it in another thread, thanks for the read. Medvedev speaks the truth and it is sad but most people first look for their own advantage. You'd think that these players love the sport more than anything else and that they'd stand up to the ATD and protect it from too much commercialisation but in the end they love their personal bank-account and success more and avoid getting into trouble. Opportunistic behaviour, so human :(

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 09:13 AM
GWH do you mean it's not 100% sure it will happend in Bastad and Stockholm?

subject to final ATP and tournament agreement, will be (listed chronologically):

That means it has not been finalised or official as of now. It's those MM events are willing to try the format and if it fails, then the experiment might not continue.

As for the Swedes, well they aren't known for making independent decisions and like to follow the herd.

Aphex
10-26-2006, 09:15 AM
Heja Sverige! :worship:



:o

scoobs
10-26-2006, 09:16 AM
Oh, brave new world...

Mark me down as "patient sceptic" - I'm dubious about the supposed benefits and appeals of this format but I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt while they at least try it out.

Björki
10-26-2006, 09:18 AM
Thanks GWH. I didnt try to understand the whole article bec it's in English :D

Klaas_nalbandian
10-26-2006, 09:47 AM
not one of the 3 Dutch tournaments

oz_boz
10-26-2006, 09:56 AM
WTF...THIRTEEN tournies? And of course both Båstad and Stockholm have to be in the list.

I hope the RR format gets a huge negative response. The people attending will get to see more matche swith their faves but hopefully they will feel the lack of drama in RR.

Boris Franz Ecker
10-26-2006, 10:47 AM
Generally unimportant and uninteresting tournaments except for Queens.
Would be a desaster for the Queens tournament if they use the RR system and it doesn't really make sense.
The best players advance easily on grass.
It's nearly sure that there are big names in the tournament left for the semi finals.

Labamba
10-26-2006, 11:02 AM
WTF, 13 tournaments for RR? :speakles: both Båstad and Stockholm :banghead:

sad day for tennis

FSRteam
10-26-2006, 11:08 AM
Yes mirkaland, that is kinda funny. Roger hasn't played any of these thirteen tournaments in years, most of them he has never played. I guess the tournaments he plays want to keep him. Well, shows that he has considerable influence :yeah:


As the n°1 he should make his point clearer and say he does NOT agree with this f*ing RR system!!! :mad:

mr_burns
10-26-2006, 11:09 AM
Round Robin and then Round of 16, what a shit...Nothing will change with that

FSRteam
10-26-2006, 11:14 AM
They should test RR out with challengers first! Or even futures!!! ;)

*julie*
10-26-2006, 11:31 AM
I am relieved not to see any french tournament in that list.

Ernham
10-26-2006, 11:35 AM
This is a really bad idea, IMO. But if ATP is suffering for viewership and some bean counter thought this might actually do the trick, I won't be opposed to them trying it, then scrapping it when it doesn't achieve anything.

This kind of reminds me of the FIA totally changing a bunch of major rules to screw over Michael Schumacher when he totally dominated Formula One racing on a level never seen before. Sound like someone you might know of in tennis?

Ernham
10-26-2006, 11:58 AM
I say we let the players play an entire match of tennis. Then the results are erased and we just let the audience and TV viewers all call/email in their votes for the "real" winner. :rolleyes:

Eh, I better not give them any ideas.

Sommarsverige
10-26-2006, 12:01 PM
They should test RR out with challengers first! Or even futures!!! ;)

yes, good point :) I am so angry on the ATP and this RR really sucks :devil:
I don´t understand why they think tennis is not interesting for the fans like it is know :confused:

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 12:08 PM
Various other solutions from other posters on this board.

- Instead of a TB, they should have a serving contest where they place a cone in the service box and the person who hits it the most will win. (GWH)

- It should be decided on a round of Greco-Roman wrestling. Labadze will then proceed to become the marketing dream of the ATP. (Merton)

- If Tursunov is playing, then he must be allowed to have a blog off against his opponent except if it is Federer or Nadal, cause they have to be in the final. (GWH)

- As for the clay they have to do as many 360s while sliding laterally and forwards within a minute and have a tennis ball balanced on their head. (GWH)

- Instead of hitting a cone, they should bring out a lion in a cage on the service line - most balls served into the lions mouth wins. Bring on the Spectacle, Disney boy... and serve that cotton candy... (TenHound)

- Another idea to replace the tie-break: they pick 2 random spectators in the crowd (one for each player). The 1st player who gets his serve returned by the spectator loses.

OR

No spectator involved but they can do something like the penalty kicks in football (since Mr. Disney loves the WC system). If the opponent can't return the serve it counts as a goal. (Saumon)

JMG
10-26-2006, 12:33 PM
Will there be a qualifying in those tournaments?

SwissMister1
10-26-2006, 12:58 PM
So much for me getting Legg Mason tickets next year. Everyone will love the multiple Lisnard matches. I don't know how they plan on fitting the extra matches in with only a few outside courts, but I'm not the genius tournament director.

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:00 PM
So much for me getting Legg Mason tickets next year. Everyone will love the multiple Lisnard matches. I don't know how they plan on fitting the extra matches in with only a few outside courts, but I'm not the genius tournament director.

Lisnard matches :hearts:

Lucky people there ;) :tape:

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:01 PM
Will there be a qualifying in those tournaments?

Was thinking about that too :lol:

It's even less fair for qualifiers, this system, IMO.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:06 PM
Was thinking about that too :lol:

It's even less fair for qualifiers, this system, IMO.

Why would they have qualies? This has never been about showing an interest in fairness.

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:07 PM
Why would they have qualies? This has never been about showing an interest in fairness.

No, I understand it isn't ;) But it would be very bad for tournaments themselves as well. How to fill up spots of players pulling out? ALTs are usually much worse than Qualifiers and Lucky Losers.

Ryan
10-26-2006, 01:08 PM
Uh, what happens when a player plays 1 match lets say, then withdraw due to injury. Does he count as a win for everyone else he has yet to play in his group? Or do they just ignore it?

Lisa1062
10-26-2006, 01:10 PM
Re: Queems. How are they going to keep up with a RR schedule when it rains?? They can barely do it with the existing single elimination.

As far as the clay court tournaments, its even a bigger advantage for Nadal to win.

Looks like I'll have to focus on the GS tounaments if I want to enjoy a real competition and sport. RR makes tennis a gimmick.

SwissMister1
10-26-2006, 01:10 PM
No, I understand it isn't ;) But it would be very bad for tournaments themselves as well. How to fill up spots of players pulling out? ALTs are usually much worse than Qualifiers and Lucky Losers.

Another good point. I bet the TD in D.C. was pissed when Agassi lost in the first round to Stoppini and that is why he is going for this. But most likely Andre would have pulled out after losing to Stoppini, and then the TD would be searching on Tuesday or Wednesday to find a guy that is still around to take his place - and be forced to put in Josh Olivas or something.

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:10 PM
Uh, what happens when a player plays 1 match lets say, then withdraw due to injury. Does he count as a win for everyone else he has yet to play in his group? Or do they just ignore it?

He will be forced to play his matches in a wheelchair, cause the fans pay to watch!

Everything to make tennis more interesting, no?

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:11 PM
Another good point. I bet the TD in D.C. was pissed when Agassi lost in the first round to Stoppini and that is why he is going for this. But most likely Andre would have pulled out after losing to Stoppini, and then the TD would be searching on Tuesday or Wednesday to find a guy that is still around to take his place - and be forced to put in Josh Olivas or something.

:lol: It's a pity there is no RR in Dutch tourneys, or we would have been able to see Edwin Kerkhoven or Danny Spierenburg in action :worship: :o

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:12 PM
No, I understand it isn't ;) But it would be very bad for tournaments themselves as well. How to fill up spots of players pulling out? ALTs are usually much worse than Qualifiers and Lucky Losers.

We have enough creative people in here to give Mr Disney some ideas.

They could play some one from the crowd and the player could play with their opposite hand or if it's Lalo, then make him hit backhands only.

Allstar
10-26-2006, 01:13 PM
What happens if all 3 players win one match? How is the winner decided?

Via
10-26-2006, 01:16 PM
this is adelaide's spin on their new exciting tournament format, as published today on their website http://www.australianmenshardcourts.com.au/pages/article.aspx?id=5878&articleid=ArticleID200610261244&pageId=8527&HandlerId=1

to them it's pretty much decided:
The Next Generation Adelaide International will be the first tournament to trial the ATP’s new round-robin format in 2007, tournament organisers announced today.

In a move that benefits players, spectators, sponsors and the media, the Next Generation Adelaide International will stage a 32-player hybrid format round-robin over eight days, with the tournament commencing one day earlier – Sunday 31 December – and running until Sunday 7 January.

Co-tournament director Peter Johnston said, "As one of the opening tournaments of the tennis year, Mark [Woodforde] and I believe the Next Generation Adelaide International is perfectly placed to pioneer this initiative. These bold changes show our dedication to making the game even more exciting.

"The tournament’s fans will receive fantastic value for money, with the opportunity to see the top players playing more than once. We can now showcase the game over eight days – beginning on a Sunday – in a format where every match counts.

"For the players coming off their end of season break, the first match back is always tough. Now they know that they’ll be assured of at least two matches during the crucial build-up period to the Australian Open," Johnston said.

Brad Drewett, CEO, ATP International Group said, "We are very excited that Adelaide will be the first ATP tournament to trial a round-robin format. The ATP believes Adelaide is the ideal event to test the 32 Player Round Robin format. We are confident this new initiative will allow the tournament organisers to develop a more predictable match schedule allowing for greater tournament promotion, while tennis fans in Adelaide will get to the chance to see the top players play more than once."

Steve Wood, CEO of Tennis Australia said, "Whether it's the sliding roof at Rod Laver Arena, or HawkEye's introduction at last year's Hyundai Hopman Cup, Australia has a history of innovation in tennis.

"The ATP's decision to trial this 32-player round-robin format here in Australia, with its guarantee of more matches for the top players, adds further value to our Australian Open Series and fits well with Tennis Australia's objective of finding new ways to make our sport even more appealing to fans."



The 32-Player Hybrid Format Round Robin: Brief Guide to Tournament Format

1. Qualifying (16 players, 4 qualifiers progress to play-off round).

2. Play-off round (16 players – 12 direct entry, 4 qualifiers – play one match for 8 play-off spots in the round-robin).

3. Round-robin (24 players split into 8 groups of 3, at the end of the round-robin the top 8 players progress to knockout rounds).

4. Knockout rounds – progress as per a normal tournament from the quarterfinal stage onwards to determine the tournament winner.

mind boggling rounds... of course the adelaide people will be smart enough to comprehend and buy tickets to their preferred day(s) accordingly.

too bad the bottom half of the field does not get the privilege of playing a guaranteed two matches. come to think of it, it will take some effort to sell the play-off round... we're talking players ranked 60 and below playing each other

croat123
10-26-2006, 01:20 PM
fuck fuck fuck
i knew they would pick umag :fiery: they abuse that tournament so much :mad:

SwissMister1
10-26-2006, 01:20 PM
What happens if all 3 players win one match? How is the winner decided?


By games/sets won. So we could see players tanking matches to give a friend a good enough score to advance. Yet another great aspect of this system.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:20 PM
Via, I eagerly await your experiences of visiting this MM event with the cowboy organisation.

Double Lisnard yeah baby.

CooCooCachoo
10-26-2006, 01:23 PM
Qualifying with sixteen players? On the WTA, this has resulted in very very weak qualifying rounds as opposed to a 32-size draw.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:23 PM
By games/sets won. So we could see players tanking matches to give a friend a good enough score to advance. Yet another great aspect of this system.

Of course they will do it. At the same time a certain result might benefit both, lets say for example Berdych and Chela needed a result which would work for both of them. Say Berdych loses to Chela and gets to play Nadal and Chela gets to play Davydenko, that would be a win-win situation.

Nathaliia
10-26-2006, 01:23 PM
Fuck off you idiots. Thank you for not choosing Sopot though.

mecir72
10-26-2006, 01:23 PM
Yes this seems like a really bad idea to me. Potentially alot more uninteresting matches to be played and more matches for the top guys. It seems to also stereotype players even more as it takes away the fun part in tennis with matchups a bit. Everybody has their least favoured opponent but now you get one more chance if you lose to that guy.

Via
10-26-2006, 01:26 PM
Via, I eagerly await your experiences of visiting this MM event with the cowboy organisation.

Double Lisnard yeah baby.

:scared:

i need to rethink. this is too confusing...

Allstar
10-26-2006, 01:28 PM
Of course they will do it. At the same time a certain result might benefit both, lets say for example Berdych and Chela needed a result which would work for both of them. Say Berdych loses to Chela and gets to play Nadal and Chela gets to play Davydenko, that would be a win-win situation.

As its only going to be 3 player groups with the winner advancing it probably wont be such a problem

alfonsojose
10-26-2006, 01:29 PM
:sad:

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:31 PM
As its only going to be 3 player groups with the winner advancing it probably wont be such a problem

Matches can still be fixed, say player A wants to go the next tournament and the other one needs to win a by a certain score, then it's easily fixed.

Allstar
10-26-2006, 01:33 PM
Matches can still be fixed, say player A wants to go the next tournament and the other one needs to win a by a certain score, then it's easily fixed.

Yeah I can see it becoming a problem. Im guessing theyve gone with only 3 player groups to minimise this

R.Federer
10-26-2006, 01:35 PM
“Our research with fans, tournaments and media indicate a preference for round robin,” said Etienne de Villiers

:confused: which fans??

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:38 PM
:confused: which fans??

Starfuckers and bandwagon jumpers.

Fact is Mr Disney is trying to cater to part time fans and pissing off the loyal base. The facts are the loyal fans haven't always been loyal fans and there must have been something initially that lead most of us to enjoy and follow the game of tennis and it wasn't cheap gimmicks.

Via
10-26-2006, 01:38 PM
Matches can still be fixed, say player A wants to go the next tournament and the other one needs to win a by a certain score, then it's easily fixed.
example:

i've been told that today in lyon, llodra has openly asked clement to lose to him in their singles match, so that he can make the draw in melbourne next year. if this was a RR tournament - 2nd round, clement had already won one match, and he would not need to win the match to advance, would he say no??

Guybrush
10-26-2006, 01:45 PM
As its only going to be 3 player groups with the winner advancing it probably wont be such a problem

Even with that fixes will be possible. An example:

Player A vs. Player C 2:0
Player A vs. Player B 1:2
Player B vs. Player C ???

After 2 matches the situation is:

Player A 2 1-1 3:2
Player B 1 1-0 2:1
Player C 1 0-1 0:2

In this istuation the Player C KNOWS he cannot be first even if he wins 2:0 (in this case his set difference will be 2:2 that is worse then the 3:2 of Player A).

Now immagine that players B and C are friends. :o

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 01:56 PM
It's easy enough to do as Via and Guybrush explained.

shotgun
10-26-2006, 02:10 PM
:mad:

Btw, wasn't Vina del Mar going to be moved to Santiago?

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 02:18 PM
:mad:

Btw, wasn't Vina del Mar going to be moved to Santiago?

It's staying in Viña and they can have some fun at the casino.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 02:18 PM
The simple answer is to make sure that the Winner of match one does not play until match three.

That means that no one can have two wins after the first two matches

Better solution is to get rid of RR.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 02:25 PM
:mad:

Btw, wasn't Vina del Mar going to be moved to Santiago?

I hope they never do that, Viña is a beautiful place. Tennis + sunsets in the Pacific.

Although, Santiago has a much bigger population, maybe thats why they wanted to move it.

shotgun
10-26-2006, 02:47 PM
Although, Santiago has a much bigger population, maybe thats why they wanted to move it.

Yes, this year (and in previous years too I suppose) they had problems with low attendance during the week days.

Guybrush
10-26-2006, 02:51 PM
Better solution is to get rid of RR.

:worship:

Hendu
10-26-2006, 02:55 PM
Yes, this year (and in previous years too I suppose) they had problems with low attendance during the week days.

Strange. With all the success of Chilean tennis in the last years. :confused:

Buenos Aires keeps growing every year (record of attendance in 2006)

How is Costa do Sauipe doing?

Its always difficult for me to find attendance stats...

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 02:59 PM
Strange. With all the success of Chilean tennis in the last years. :confused:

Buenos Aires keeps growing every year (record of attendance in 2006)

How is Costa do Sauipe doing?

Its always difficult for me to find attendance stats...

Well Buenos Aires should be making cash now, especially since they can pay appearance money.

As for crowd figures, it depends on who you talk to really and the organisation. As I said before if Tiriac supports it, then it has to be dodgy.

Guybrush
10-26-2006, 03:04 PM
The simple answer is to make sure that the Winner of match one does not play until match three.

That means that no one can have two wins after the first two matches

Ok, let's say that this solution is accepted. This are the match results:

Player A vs. Player C 2:1 (player A does not play the next match)
Player B vs. Player C 0:2
Player A vs. Player B ???


After 2 matches the situation is:

Player C 2 1-1 3:2
Player A 1 1-0 2:1
Player B 1 0-1 0:2


Player B is OUT after 2 matches because with a win of 2:0 he goes to 1 win and a 2:2 set difference. Still not enough to catch the 3:2 set difference of player C.

Again, think if players A & B are friends. ;)

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 03:06 PM
I love how Mr Disney says he cares about the fans etc etc.

Well, it seemed he only asked people that agreed with him. It's like when Saddam Hussein was in power he had 99,5 percent of the official support of the population allegedly.

Hey, I have the people behind me. How about answering the questions and not just give spin and cliches.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 03:13 PM
Well Buenos Aires should be making cash now, especially since they can pay appearance money..

In 2006 the attendance was 64.245. With an average of 10.450 per day, from Monday to Friday.

As for crowd figures, it depends on who you talk to really and the organisation. As I said before if Tiriac supports it, then it has to be dodgy.

I guess so, especially when the numbers are low.

gaynor
10-26-2006, 03:30 PM
So if the first 2 matches are won by the same player, then we have a dead match. That seems great for the fans and players.

tangerine_dream
10-26-2006, 04:02 PM
What a truly awful idea. And putting Stella Artois on the list for RR is bogus :mad:

RR = Roasting Reprieve for Nadal :o
:lol:

*Viva Chile*
10-26-2006, 04:22 PM
Viña del Mar with only 24 players?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fiery: :mad:

I really hate Mr. Disney now!!!! :o

Ays25
10-26-2006, 04:31 PM
they can put prize money and ranking points for a win (you win a match but you are eliminated-still get some money and points for that win) to prevent match fixing.

Allstar
10-26-2006, 04:32 PM
Even with that fixes will be possible. An example:

Player A vs. Player C 2:0
Player A vs. Player B 1:2
Player B vs. Player C ???

After 2 matches the situation is:

Player A 2 1-1 3:2
Player B 1 1-0 2:1
Player C 1 0-1 0:2

In this istuation the Player C KNOWS he cannot be first even if he wins 2:0 (in this case his set difference will be 2:2 that is worse then the 3:2 of Player A).

Now immagine that players B and C are friends. :o


I know fixes are still possible, matches are fixed with the current format. I was expecting the groups to be bigger personally with maybe two players going through. Bigger groups would create more dead rubbers thats all so by having 3 in a group it wont be as plorific

shotgun
10-26-2006, 04:49 PM
Strange. With all the success of Chilean tennis in the last years. :confused:

Buenos Aires keeps growing every year (record of attendance in 2006)

How is Costa do Sauipe doing?

Its always difficult for me to find attendance stats...

I think they don't have an attendance problem with the night matches involving Gonzalez and Massu, but for the rest...

I'll try to find numbers for Sauipe...

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 04:55 PM
Viña del Mar with only 24 players?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fiery: :mad:

I really hate Mr. Disney now!!!! :o

It's easy to do, come on you are getting to see more superstars.

shotgun
10-26-2006, 05:26 PM
This text (in Spanish) talks about the attendance situation in Vina this year.

http://blogs.latercera.cl/deportes/index.cfm?d=5&m=2&y=2006

I did some research about the attendance in Costa do Sauipe, it has been steady around 25.000 since 2002. This year the attendance was good considering it was the first time there were no Brazilian players in the semis.

tennis lover
10-26-2006, 05:27 PM
Queen's :sad: :sad: :sad: I love this tournament and I can't help but feel it's going to be spoilt. :awww:
why are they "testing" it with so many tournaments? surely just trying it with 5 or something will be enough. :(

Hendu
10-26-2006, 05:37 PM
This text (in Spanish) talks about the attendance situation in Vina this year.

http://blogs.latercera.cl/deportes/index.cfm?d=5&m=2&y=2006

I did some research about the attendance in Costa do Sauipe, it has been steady around 25.000 since 2002. This year the attendance was good considering it was the first time there were no Brazilian players in the semis.

I see.

Thanks for the info. :)

It seems the problem of the lack of attendance in Chile is related to organizational issues. This is an interesting topic, I will try to find out more about it.

+alonso
10-26-2006, 05:57 PM
:mad: and I was thinking in going to Viña next year!!

:o What a joke

Lee
10-26-2006, 06:17 PM
So if the first 2 matches are won by the same player, then we have a dead match. That seems great for the fans and players.

I am not a supporter for RR but this won't be a problem by scheduling the losing player from 1st match play against the idling player.

NicoFan
10-26-2006, 06:25 PM
“Our research with fans, tournaments and media indicate a preference for round robin,” said Etienne de Villiers (pictured above), ATP Executive Chairman & President. “We are committed to grow the appeal of the sport and get more fans to sample and enjoy. We are going to test different formats and see which ones we will introduce and into what type of event for 2008. It is the 'do it, try it, fix it' approach. I recognise some players and media are opposed or indifferent. But we will diligently build our research based on the results and do what's best for the fans. You live or die by your what your consumer does, not by what critics say or feel.”

What fans is he talking about??? The fans who work for the ATP who can't disagree with him or they'll be fired? The fans who are members of his own family? :rolleyes:

He's a MORON.

I won't watch or support any of the RR tournaments. Hell, I'm so disgusted that I might not support of the rest of them either.

Raquel
10-26-2006, 06:32 PM
I'm surprised Queens got picked to try this out. It's one of the oldest events on the tour and has one of the best IS fields of the year. If they were going to pick a pre-Wimbledon grass event to try this out on I would have thought Nottingham or s-Hertogenbosch would get picked as they are more comparable with other events on the list like Adelaide and Delray Beach.

"This is a great day for tennis," said Mark Baron, tournament director of the Delray Beach International Tennis Championships.

It is? Doesn't feel like it.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:34 PM
I'm surprised Queens got picked to try this out. It's one of the oldest events on the tour and has one of the best IS fields of the year. If they were going to pick a pre-Wimbledon grass event to try this out on I would have thought Nottingham or s-Hertogenbosch would get picked as they are more comparable with other events on the list like Adelaide and Delray Beach.

It is? Doesn't feel like it.

When has the ATD made sense?

Corswandt
10-26-2006, 06:43 PM
why are they "testing" it with so many tournaments?

To make it a fait accompli, something that can't be undone. This isn't really a test. They've already decided they're going through with this no matter what - it's here to stay.

tennis lover
10-26-2006, 06:45 PM
To make it a fait accompli, something that can't be undone. This isn't really a test. They've already decided they're going through with this no matter what - it's here to stay.
:sobbing: hopefully not at Queens. :(

Checho
10-26-2006, 06:48 PM
Jaite you are a Stupid!! you are ruining our only Atp tournament.

We want the traditional Knock Out format pal, don't do this kind of shit, please!!!

Corswandt
10-26-2006, 06:49 PM
Listen to your fans, stick with the knockout system ATP!

Since when has the ATP listened to the fans? This is all about pleasing the tournament directors, who were probably grumbling that they put in all this money on the events and then they weren't getting enough bang for the buck ("bang" being marquee matches and "buck" being appearance fees). De Villiers knows his job depends on the tournament directors, not on the fans or even the players.

Raquel
10-26-2006, 06:51 PM
When has the ATD made sense?

True. Etienne seems to be the worst yet though. The fact the big names like Roger and Rafa are all backing him up though (if we believe the quotes) is worrying. It would be good to see someone come out and say they don't like it. Someone like Lleyton Hewitt or Andy Murray might have the nerve to come out with something different from the standard, PR-friendly quotes full of praise.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:51 PM
Since when has the ATP listened to the fans? This is all about pleasing the tournament directors, who were probably grumbling that they put in all this money on the events and then they weren't getting enough bang for the buck ("bang" being marquee matches and "buck" being appearance fees). De Villiers knows his job depends on the tournament directors, not on the fans or even the players.

I want to disagree with you, but I can't. The only way they could do something would be not to turn up to these events or strike, but they aren't militant enough to do it.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:52 PM
True. Etienne seems to be the worst yet though. The fact the big names like Roger and Rafa are all backing him up though (if we believe the quotes) is worrying. It would be good to see someone come out and say they don't like it. Someone like Lleyton Hewitt or Andy Murray might have the nerve to come out with something different from the standard, PR-friendly quotes full of praise.

Federer has changed his view and is against it. Little Gasquet is against it as well, but as for Hewitt he hates the ATD, but I am not sure how he is going to take it.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 06:53 PM
Jaite you are a Stupid!! you are ruining our only Atp tournament.

We want the traditional Knock Out format pal, don't do this kind of shit, please!!!

Jaite has done a great job these years. He is one of the reasons of the development of the ATP tournament we have today.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:54 PM
Jaite has done a great job these years. He is one of the reasons of the development of the ATP tournament we have today.

He has gone to the dark side.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 06:57 PM
He has gone to the dark side.

:lol:

I don't think so. He is a thoughtful person, always caring about players needs and opinions.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 06:59 PM
:lol:

I don't think so. He is a thoughtful person, always caring about players needs and opinions.

If he didn't sell out or go to the dark side, then Copa Telmex wouldn't be a RR event.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 07:05 PM
If he didn't sell out or go to the dark side, then Copa Telmex wouldn't be a RR event.

I think it is a matter costs and benefits. Buenos Aires would still have the same field, I guess the same players would come, the staduim would still be full.

What if he concedes this to Mr. Disney in exchange of a future upgrade of the tournament? ;)

I have nothing to support what I am saying, but one can only hope. :shrug:

Jaite has done a great job. ATP Buenos Aires is atractive to fans and to players.

keqtqiadv
10-26-2006, 07:05 PM
:retard: :retard: :retard:

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 07:09 PM
I think it is a matter costs and benefits. Buenos Aires would still have the same field, I guess the same players would come, the staduim would still be full.

What if he concedes this to Mr. Disney in exchange of a future upgrade of the tournament? ;)

I have nothing to support what I am saying, but one can only hope. :shrug:

Jaite has done a great job. ATP Buenos Aires is atractive to fans and to players.

Well Jaite has done well with the event, but he didn't turn around the event through RR did he?

Jimnik
10-26-2006, 07:16 PM
This 48 RR draw could really screw up Queens. There are no byes so whoever wants to win the tournament must play 6 matches.

This will test Nadal's loyalty to the RR format. If he plays a 5-set final against Roger on the Sunday, will he be prepared to play Queens on the Tuesday? It will be interesting to see which tournament he enters after RG.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 07:18 PM
Well Jaite has done well with the event, but he didn't turn around the event through RR did he?

I don't think the influence of RR in the tournament will be too important for the fans who go to the tournament every year.

If the weather is ok, I think there will be another record of attendance next year.

Maybe players won't be very happy, but I'm pretty sure they will still come. Either for the money, or for Bs.As. night life (Moya). :)

tennisgal_001
10-26-2006, 07:23 PM
Terrible day for tennis. I cannot believe this. THIRTEEN tourneys?!!!!!! Mr. Disney wants to be a part of history to matter what (kinda like Norm Cryst).

With the RR format:
- match-fixing will sky rocket
- gamblers will ALWAYS win
- Say players A, B, C are in one pool, A beat B, B beat C, as a fan, I don't want to watch A vs. C. It'll be totally one-sided. I don't see how this is good for the "fans" (you know them, the ones who want to watch more exciting matches), or TV broadcasters.
- Wasn't it Nadal who was moaning about the length of the season, the high # of matches he's played this year, etc... and how it's affecting the level of his play? Well, the only possible interpretation for his support to the RR system is this: Nadal is the world #2. He will always be seeded either 1 or 2. Nadal, like most top-10 players, generally plays the 32 player draw (with the exception of the AMS which are not included in this experiment, and Queens). Now, according to the RR format, the top 16 seeds get a BYE into the next round (i.e. 8x3 pools). THEREFORE, while the other 8 players were busting their asses off, trying to make it into the 24 player draw, Nadal, along with 15 other players get a few days rest before the tourney actually begins FOR THEM. And since they need to play two guaranteed match, A and B being the seeded players in one pool, and C the player from the kock-out stage, A vs. C, and B vs. C, will most probably be shorter matches, just over the hour mark. So you can see why somebody with the ranking of Nadal wouldn't mind the RR system.
- Why two tourneys in Sweden?
- This system would of course be 10 times as bad for the lower-ranked players, who now go through the quallies. Imagine someone in the top-100 or so, having to qualify for a 32-player draw. He'd have to play 2 qualy matches, the lower ranked 16 players knock-out stage, 2 matches in his pool, a QF, a SF, and a final. (the max. assuming he's winning). That's THREE more matches than a top-16 seed. It'll be much harder for those guys to break into the top-100 or even top-50 because it's just too fatiguing and stressful.

To sum up, What the f*** was Mr. Disney thinking?!

P.S. The article doesn't mention anything about doubles, so I'm assuming there are no changes there. Also, how will the point breakdown work for the entry ranking and race? Surely something must change.

Naranoc
10-26-2006, 07:26 PM
P.S. The article doesn't mention anything about doubles, so I'm assuming there are no changes there.

He's not really bothered about doubles though, it's only singles he want's to screw up. Plus, wasn't the 'improvement' that was implemented for doubles the super tie-break, to get them over with quickly?

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 07:30 PM
I don't think the influence of RR in the tournament will be too important for the fans who go to the tournament every year.

If the weather is ok, I think there will be another record of attendance next year.

Maybe players won't be very happy, but I'm pretty sure they will still come. Either for the money, or for Bs.As. night life (Moya). :)

There are more than enough reasons to go, but the RR format isn't one of them.

Though I can heckle the players at non-RR events, by saying hey guys you are not allowed to lose here, it's not RR.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 07:43 PM
There are more than enough reasons to go, but the RR format isn't one of them.

Sure. But then, why did tournaments accept this system?

To avoid upsets? to have the "big boys" playing at least two matches?

I don't like it. But in the case of ATP Buenos Aires, the change won't mean much.

Though I can heckle the players at non-RR events, by saying hey guys you are not allowed to lose here, it's not RR.

Or in the other way around: hey! I know this is RR, but move your ass or give me back the money of the ticket! :shout:

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 07:45 PM
Sure. But then, why did tournaments accept this system?

To avoid upsets? to have the "big boys" playing at least two matches?

I don't like it. But in the case of ATP Buenos Aires, the change won't mean much.

Well it's about the money and TD's only care about money and nothing else. So if the big superstars are protected more money for them.

So if they solely care about the stars why don't they have 16 man events and then best of 3 match final, then they can see the stars as often as they like.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 07:53 PM
Well it's about the money and TD's only care about money and nothing else. So if the big superstars are protected more money for them.

Besides, upsets are also atractive for fans. Acasuso became a fan favorite in Bs.As. when he reached the final.

The positive thing will be that Cañas (who always sucks in Bs.As.) will play at least 2 matches. :p

Not all TD care only about money.

So if they solely care about the stars why don't they have 16 man events and then best of 3 match final, then they can see the stars as often as they like.

:cuckoo:

Don't give them new ideas...

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:02 PM
Besides, upsets are also atractive for fans. Acasuso became a fan favorite in Bs.As. when he reached the final.

The positive thing will be that Cañas (who always sucks in Bs.As.) will play at least 2 matches. :p

Not all TD care only about money.

Well what Acasuso did then and what Lapentti and Ventura did in Bogota and Casachallenger wouldn't happen in the RR format as the better players they beat would have another chance of staying in the tournament. Once they lose, they should be out.

It's as Yayo Massa said, upsetting a top player won't mean as much anymore.

Considering these TDs are mercenaries and don't adhere to laws of governence, then money is what drives them.

DDrago2
10-26-2006, 08:04 PM
I think you guys are over-reacting about Round Robin. It's not that they changed grand slams and masters, it's some small tournaments (Queens being the biggest). It's just a try to see how it works, and we will all be able to see it on Queens

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:17 PM
Well what Acasuso did then and what Lapentti and Ventura did in Bogota and Casachallenger wouldn't happen in the RR format as the better players they beat would have another chance of staying in the tournament. Once they lose, they should be out.

It's as Yayo Massa said, upsetting a top player won't mean as much anymore.

Yes, thats the main drawback of RR.

Considering these TDs are mercenaries and don't adhere to laws of governence, then money is what drives them.

ATP Buenos Aires survived the worst economic crisis in Argentine history. Without a main sponsor and with relatively cheap tickets, without money to attract players.

They were able to keep the show in Buenos Aires, not worrying about the short term loss of money, and look now. Players who were always treated well by the organization want to be back, now there is more money to attract "stars", the fans have the feeling they own this ATP, that they are part of it, and there are more fans in the stands every year. Of course all this, along with the success of the Argentine players.

Not all TDs think only about the money, but also about the tournament. Especially if having an ATP Tournament is as important as it is for a country like Argentina.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:18 PM
I think you guys are over-reacting about Round Robin. It's not that they changed grand slams and masters, it's some small tournaments (Queens being the biggest). It's just a try to see how it works, and we will all be able to see it on Queens

Yes, who cares about those little tournaments? :shrug:

stebs
10-26-2006, 08:18 PM
Queens is quite a traditional tournament. Wouldn't be happy to see RR implemented there.

In a way this isn't so bad. I guess the GS and AMS will seem like better tournaments as it's a chance to get away from RR. Sunny days aren't special without rain.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:21 PM
ATP Buenos Aires survived the worst economic crisis in Argentine history. Without a main sponsor and with relatively cheap tickets, without money to attract players.

They were able to keep the show in Buenos Aires, not worrying about the short term loss of money, and look now. Players who were always treated well by the organization want to be back, now there is more money to attract "stars", the fans have the feeling they own this ATP, that they are part of it, and there are more fans in the stands every year. Of course all this, along with the success of the Argentine players.

Not all TDs think only about the money, but also about the tournament. Especially if having an ATP Tournament is as important as it is for Argentina.

I am aware of how they managed to handle the situation and I admire Jaite for that, then again it's less admirable with the situation where Gaudio for example who played for nothing and didn't take much when he could have as RG champ.

Now the tournament can pay guarantees, it seems they decided to forget the people that played for nothing or at worst give them change compared to say Ferrero and others.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:29 PM
I am aware of how they managed to handle the situation and I admire Jaite for that, then again it's less admirable with the situation where Gaudio for example who played for nothing and didn't take much when he could have as RG champ.

Now the tournament can pay guarantees, it seems they decided to forget the people that played for nothing or at worst give them change compared to say Ferrero and others.

That was a big mistake.

For next year's tourny, they are said to be in conversations again with Gaudio, after he rejected the first offer.

Anyways, Jaite has a good relationship with almost all Argentine players.
His position as TD might make that more difficult. His decitions will not always be well received by the players.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:32 PM
That was a big mistake.

For next year's tourny, they are said to be in conversations again with Gaudio, after he rejected the first offer.

Anyways, Jaite has a good relationship with almost all Argentine players.
His position as TD might make that more difficult. His decitions will not be always well received by the players.

Well I can see why he was pissed off, cause he supported the event when it was struggling and now it isn't turned around, they don't want to know.

It's basic capitalism the whole appearance money thing, it would be great if it wasn't around in its current forum. In reality it's basic economics supply and demand and it's not going away.

Bremen
10-26-2006, 08:38 PM
God this is awful...Hate this idea. We should get some petition going...or if any of you go to these events you should make your feelings known to the people in charge.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:38 PM
Petitions won't work at all.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:40 PM
Well I can see why he was pissed off, cause he supported the event when it was struggling and now it isn't turned around, they don't want to know.

I would have been pissed off too. But its time to let it go, he has many fans who want to watch him play. I hope they get to an agreement.

It's basic capitalism the whole appearance money thing, it would be great if it wasn't around in its current forum. In reality it's basic economics supply and demand and it's not going away.

Appearance money, was, is and will always be there. :shrug:

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:42 PM
God this is awful...Hate this idea. We should get some petition going...or if any of you go to these events you should make your feelings known to the people in charge.

yes, I'm already looking for the "J" in the telephone directory.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:46 PM
yes, I'm already looking for the "J" in the telephone directory.

You looking for Martin Jaite in the phone book? He'd have an unlisted number for sure, just go to La Nacion or Clarin.

One thing I have to say, there hasn't been much comment from the Argentine players about this joke format.

Bremen
10-26-2006, 08:51 PM
Petitions won't work at all.

Yeah...when do they ever?? I guess if nobody showed up to support these rr events there miight be a change.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 08:52 PM
You looking for Martin Jaite in the phone book? He'd have an unlisted number for sure, just go to La Nacion or Clarin.

Nah, I was just joking.

If I was going to complain, I'd do it by mail to the organization of the tournament.

One thing I have to say, there hasn't been much comment from the Argentine players about this joke format.

I haven't heard anything about it. Maybe now that it is public that ATP Buenos Aires will have RR, players will start to talk.

Action Jackson
10-26-2006, 08:53 PM
Nah, I was just joking.

If I was going to complain, I'd do it by mail to the organization of the tournament.

I haven't heard anything about it. Maybe now that it is public that ATP Buenos Aires will have RR, players will start to talk.

I will try and find out when they come down here.

GlennMirnyi
10-26-2006, 09:00 PM
Buenos Aires will be RR? I was thinking about going there next year but I'm havin' second thoughts.

I propose everybody put some money so we can offer a reward for the person that breaks all De Villiers' teeth.

Hendu
10-26-2006, 09:04 PM
Buenos Aires will be RR? I was thinking about going there next year but I'm havin' second thoughts.

I propose everybody put some money so we can offer a reward for the person that breaks all De Villiers' teeth.

Don't bother, Buenos Aires ATP is full of moonballers anyway. :shrug:

GlennMirnyi
10-26-2006, 09:07 PM
Don't bother, Buenos Aires ATP is full of moonballers anyway. :shrug:

Yeah, Brazilian moonballers too, but I'd like to see it anyway.

uglyamerican
10-26-2006, 09:08 PM
First indication of players' feeling will be the quality of the entry list for Adelaide.

Naranoc
10-26-2006, 09:08 PM
I propose everybody put some money so we can offer a reward for the person that breaks all De Villiers' teeth.


He'd still communicate his ideas with a personalised Disney whiteboard.

GlennMirnyi
10-26-2006, 09:13 PM
He'd still communicate his ideas with a personalised Disney whiteboard.

:lol:

So a bonus for breakin' his arms?

Naranoc
10-26-2006, 09:14 PM
:lol:

So a bonus for breakin' his arms?

That's the way forward :yeah:

tennisgal_001
10-26-2006, 09:18 PM
First indication of players' feeling will be the quality of the entry list for Adelaide.

I doubt it. As much as I hate to admit it, Wood is absolutely right. Coming back from the off-season, the players would want to get as much match practise as possible, and if there's a chance to avoid first round exits, and play an extra match or two, why not?

The fact that this format will also assist the players gain valuable match play prior to the first Grand Slam of the year, the Australian Open, makes this a doubly welcome innovation," said Steve Wood, CEO of Tennis Australia.

Sunset of Age
10-26-2006, 10:37 PM
Just came back from a short holiday, and then I read about this... :fiery:

Dreadful idea, glad Roger doesn't play any of those tournaments... is quite telling. Hope the approving players (not mentioning any names here :devil: ) will soon find out this system won't be doing them any good.
Let's just hope this test fails terribly!

And... eh... Stella Artois???

FedererGrandSlam
10-27-2006, 12:21 AM
Soooooooooooooooooooooooo stupid.

Via
10-27-2006, 01:07 AM
:lol: i went to bed for the night, and woke up to find so many A, B, Cs... my head hurts.

i don't think they have completely ironed out the details about things like how to schedule the round robin matches, what ranking points and prize money will be awarded for the RRs etc.

but the first tournament adelaide has to announce some details fast... they will be finalising the entry field in three (?) weeks, and they must be hoping that the new format will attract a stronger field. just hewitt playing a guaranteed two matches will not bring that much more money in, to justify so much more work to organise more matches and an extra day.

a rr of 24 players is a lot of work... i don't think any tennis rr exhibition events have that many players (or units, if they are teams) to deal with.

Via
10-27-2006, 01:14 AM
example:

i've been told that today in lyon, llodra has openly asked clement to lose to him in their singles match, so that he can make the draw in melbourne next year. if this was a RR tournament - 2nd round, clement had already won one match, and he would not need to win the match to advance, would he say no??

btw - last night good friends clement and llodra fought till the end in a 3rd set tie-breaker. that's the beauty of knock out, no maths to calculate who should advance, simple all out battle.

NicoFan
10-27-2006, 01:25 AM
a rr of 24 players is a lot of work... i don't think any tennis rr exhibition events have that many players (or units, if they are teams) to deal with.

And going to be hard for the fans to understand. How it actually works, and the points (well you already an advanced math degree to understand the rankings system now - this will make it even worse).

Action Jackson
10-27-2006, 07:40 AM
btw - last night good friends clement and llodra fought till the end in a 3rd set tie-breaker. that's the beauty of knock out, no maths to calculate who should advance, simple all out battle.

It just means it will be easier not to follow these joke events.

Action Jackson
10-27-2006, 07:41 AM
:lol:

So a bonus for breakin' his arms?

That wouldn't be such a bad thing.

tangerine_dream
11-03-2006, 05:41 PM
I would like to see this "research" where Mr Disney claims that fans want more round robins. I have yet to see any tennis messageboard, article, or commentary that give an enthusiastic thumbs-up to this idea. Our own poll a long while ago was very much against extra round robins:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=6570&highlight=round+robin

And here's one of many commentaries saying what a bad idea it is.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/knockout-blow-to-the-underdogs/2006/11/03/1162340054349.html#
Knockout blow to the underdogs
November 4, 2006

HINDSIGHT

ATP's planned round-robin tournament format would mean fewer upsets and that's a bad thing, writes Richard Hinds.

IT WAS one of those tiny items that didn't make much of splash in the newspapers even at this time of the year. Glen Boss hadn't ridden it, Willie Mason hadn't snubbed it, Lleyton Hewitt hadn't sacked it and the tennis season is still two months away. So it hardly set tongues wagging.

But the decision by the ATP to start experimenting with round-robin tournament formats next year, starting with the Adelaide International in January, might be what media pundits like to call a slow burner. A little story, but one the implications of which might one day prove highly significant.

As it is, the ATP's executive chairman, Etienne de Villiers, says his organisation is just poking a toe in the water. Using three different round-robin formats at 13 relatively minor events next year to see whether moving away from the traditional knockout draw is better for players, sponsors, fans and - you guessed it - television rights-holders.

And, on the surface, the changes that will occur at the Adelaide International hardly rival the invention of the metal racquet on the list of revolutionary moments in tennis. The new format may well please Adelaide fans, though how much we can take from that is debatable, given Hewitt once described them as "stupid".

Rather than starting with the customary 32-player draw, there will first be a play-off round in which the 12 lowest-ranked players plus four qualifiers play knockout matches. The eight winners will then join the top-ranked 16 players in the round-robin phase - which is where you might need to get out your slide rule and calculator.

In the round robin, the 24 players are placed in eight groups of three (with the top eight seeds in different groups). The players in each group play each other once - two games each, according to my abacus - with the winner of each group then progressing to the quarter-finals.

So what happens if all three players in a group win one match? Adelaide International tournament director Peter Johnson says qualification for the quarters - which, like the rest of the tournament, revert to knockout - would come down to head-to-head results, total sets, total games and even total points to separate the three players.

The upside of the round-robin format? Most obviously for the tournament organisers, sponsors, television and starstruck fans, the guarantee that big-name players often earning lucrative guarantees just to turn up will play at least two matches, nullifying the devastating commercial effects of a shock first-round defeat. For the fans, another chance to see that star - even if he obviously hasn't brought his A game.

This point was made rather more euphemistically by Mr de Villiers. "Our research with fans, tournaments and media indicate a preference for round robin," he said - which is code for "If Radek Stepanek beats Andy Roddick in the first round at Delray Beach, the event is going to struggle to beat monster truck racing in the ratings. This way, Roddick has a chance to get his act together."

Naturally, the top-ranked players like the idea. Rafael Nadal said: "This will be good for our tournaments, for us, the players, and especially for fans and television, since they will be able to see their favourite players more than once, for sure." Read: "If I have a bad day against Raemon Sluiter, no problem. I can make up with it the next day against Robin Vik. Ole!"

So why worry about this seemingly minor alteration? Besides the innate resistance to change that comes with this column's advancing years, we are concerned that one of tennis's great moments, the shock first-round victory by the unseeded giantkiller, will become an endangered species.

We are talking about only minor events now. In the case of the Adelaide International, a tournament set up to provide early-season practice before the Australian Open. But what if the promoters, broadcasters and players like it so much it becomes a feature at Masters Series events or even grand slams? Why should they risk losing headline acts such as Federer and Nadal in the first week when there is a way to hand them a lifeline?

As it is, de Villiers is already on the lookout for the sceptics. "You live or die by what your consumer does, not by what critics say or feel," he says. In other words: "Get back in your box, and we'll tell you whether the TV execs liked it at the end of the season."

E-mail: rhinds@smh.com.au

LaTenista
11-03-2006, 05:58 PM
Queen's :speakles:

Why are they mostly American tournaments? If Indy is RR I won't go. :o

Sunset of Age
11-03-2006, 06:06 PM
Queen's :speakles:

Why are they mostly American tournaments? If Indy is RR I won't go. :o

The only reason I can think of is that they/Mr. Disney want to promote tennis more especially in the US - and for some brainfarted reason, they think they'll manage by applying RR... :rolleyes:

nobama
11-03-2006, 07:23 PM
Oh how I wish Roger would use his clout ans #1 to undo this ridiculous idea. If I was an ATP player I would refuse to put any of these events on my schedule. Let the ones who like it show up and play. :o

Action Jackson
11-04-2006, 07:19 AM
Thanks for the article tangerius and as for what will happen. Well if the players treat it as a joke and it could have the wow factor initially, then die down just as quickly.

MilMilCho
11-04-2006, 09:56 AM
What a stupid idea,
I cant even believe Nadal thinks it's a good thing to our sport.

Damita
11-04-2006, 12:26 PM
I would like to see this "research" where Mr Disney claims that fans want more round robins. I have yet to see any tennis messageboard, article, or commentary that give an enthusiastic thumbs-up to this idea. So do I Tangy! Where are they? was there a poll on the ATP site that we all missed? :p
BTW, on Nov.2 I got a mail from the ATP survey service saying they were collecting opinions and views of fans on the ATP Tour, I opened it on Nov.3, and I couldn't answer anything, I couldn't even find out what it was clearly about since it said... the survey was closed! 24hrs after they ask you it's closed? :rolleyes:
Maybe someone here knows what it was about? If it is their manner of making "research" on what fans think, they really have great communication skills :yeah: :o

So why worry about this seemingly minor alteration? Besides the innate resistance to change that comes with this column's advancing years, we are concerned that one of tennis's great moments, the shock first-round victory by the unseeded giantkiller, will become an endangered species.:help:

We are talking about only minor events now. In the case of the Adelaide International, a tournament set up to provide early-season practice before the Australian Open. But what if the promoters, broadcasters and players like it so much it becomes a feature at Masters Series events or even grand slams? Why should they risk losing headline acts such as Federer and Nadal in the first week when there is a way to hand them a lifeline?

As it is, de Villiers is already on the lookout for the sceptics. "You live or die by what your consumer does, not by what critics say or feel," he says. In other words: "Get back in your box, and we'll tell you whether the TV execs liked it at the end of the season."Exactly! we're screwed :awww:

Unless some players are opposed to it and start saying it LOUD... :scratch:

Kalliopeia
11-04-2006, 02:02 PM
Queen's :speakles:

Why are they mostly American tournaments? If Indy is RR I won't go. :o

Same here. I'd actually been planning to go to either Indy or Cincy next year, since I live so close. I guess my decision's been made for me.

Via
11-04-2006, 10:12 PM
I would like to see this "research" where Mr Disney claims that fans want more round robins. I have yet to see any tennis messageboard, article, or commentary that give an enthusiastic thumbs-up to this idea. Our own poll a long while ago was very much against extra round robins:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=6570&highlight=round+robin

And here's one of many commentaries saying what a bad idea it is.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/knockout-blow-to-the-underdogs/2006/11/03/1162340054349.html#

thanks for posting... i almost wouldn't find it although i read that newspaper every day!

there's an illustration that comes with it though... to give us a graphic idea of what 'round robin' means.... :tape:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/11/04/04hindsillo_narrowweb__300x410,0.jpg

jazar
11-04-2006, 10:39 PM
how could they do it to Queen's? its one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world. turning into a round-robin is just like making it a glorified exhibition.
the ATP wants to make all these changes, but the main problem is not the tournaments but the players and the lack of personalities. everybody knows federer, roddick and nadal and they are funny, engaging guys. but you can't really say that about a lot of other players. ljubicic seems a pretty boring guy off court, ditto davydenko. no one evers hears anything from robredo, nalbandian is quiet (unless he's insulting lleyton hewitt). baghdatis would be better if he could speak english. they need to find a way of getting the players across to the audience more.

tangerine_dream
11-04-2006, 10:41 PM
What a stupid idea,
I cant even believe Nadal thinks it's a good thing to our sport.
Matthew Cronin needled Nadal's excessive acquiescence in his Hit List a few days ago: "RAFAEL NADAL IS FOR THE ROUND ROBINS: What isn't the Spaniard advocating these days, except for an advance to a post-Wimby semifinals. Got a new idea? Pass it by Rafa; he'll love it."

I would like to hear an some dissent from Nadal, myself.

Cronin also mentioned that his partiner Ron Cioffi had championed the dreadful RR format in a Tennis mag opinion piece three years ago. I found it (http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Tennis/2004/04/01/885788?ba=a&bi=0&bp=7) on the tennis.com site but you need to pay to read the rest of the article :(

And it looks like Steve Tignor is also cautiously in favor of the RR format:

http://tennisworld.typepad.com/thewrap/2006/10/roundrobin_rafa.html

I’m sure there are more positives and negatives to be considered, but those are the ones that come to mind right now. All in all, I think round robins are worth an experiment, if only to find out if there’s a way to promote and package them as something different from a run-of-the-mill, every-man-for-himself tournament. But it’s just as likely that fans will miss the high stakes that single-elimination draws bring to every match. What separates tennis from say, golf, from a competitive standpoint is that you must beat someone—not just play well—to succeed. And the knockout system is the perfect showcase for that.

how could they do it to Queen's? its one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world. turning into a round-robin is just like making it a glorified exhibition.
It's also not needed because the top players at Queen's rarely lose in the first round and most of them end up in the SF and F anyway.

jazar
11-05-2006, 09:22 AM
i think that a lot of the players at queen's dont really care about the grass court season anyway, i.e. some of the spaniards. giving them more matches just gives them the opportunity to tank.

*Ljubica*
11-22-2006, 10:17 AM
Just been catching up with this thread - and all I can say is thank God it doesn't affect any tournaments I go to apart from Umag (and possibly Stockholm in October). I was worried they were going to start messing around with Stuttgart or Basel :devil: Still seems a ridiculous idea to me, and like tangerine_dream, I would love to know where all these fans who support it are hiding!.

Action Jackson
11-22-2006, 10:22 AM
For those who care, here are the first RR guinea pigs.

Adelaide
1 Nieminen, Jarkko FIN 15
2 Djokovic, Novak SRB 16
3 Gasquet, Richard FRA 18
4 Stepanek, Radek CZE 19
5 Hewitt, Lleyton AUS 20
6 Hrbaty, Dominik SVK 21
7 Johansson, Joachim SWE 21 @
8 Clement, Arnaud FRA 42
9 Simon, Gilles FRA 45
10 Mathieu, Paul-Henri FRA 55
11 Mayer, Florian GER 57
12 Becker, Benjamin GER 58
13 Serra, Florent FRA 61
14 Tipsarevic, Janko SRB 65
15 Goldstein, Paul USA 72
16 Spadea, Vincent USA 74
17 Hajek, Jan CZE 76
18 Hernych, Jan CZE 77
19 Vassallo Arguello, Martin ARG 80
20 Dancevic, Frank CAN 87
21 Del Potro, Juan Martin ARG 91
22 Dlouhy, Lukas CZE 92
23 Kunitsyn, Igor RUS 93
24 Vanek, Jiri CZE 94
25 Delic, Amer USA 96
26 (Q)
27 (Q)
28 (Q)
29 (Q)
30 (WC)
31 (WC)
32 (WC)

Alternates
1. Korolev, Evgeny RUS 100
2. Sluiter, Raemon NED 104
3. Muller, Gilles LUX 106
4. Waske, Alexander GER 112
5. Vicente, Fernando ESP 113
6. Galvani, Stefano ITA 114
7. Pavel, Andrei ROM 115
8. Vik, Robin CZE 117
9. Hartfield, Diego ARG 119
10. Kubot, Lukasz POL 120
11. Economidis, Konstantinos GRE 122
12. Bogdanovic, Alex GBR 123
13. Moodie, Wesley RSA 125
14. Pashanski, Boris SRB 126
15. Querrey, Sam USA 127
16. Bolelli, Simone ITA 128
17. Berlocq, Carlos ARG 130
18. Zib, Tomas CZE 131
19. Fraile, Gorka ESP 132
20. De Voest, Rik RSA 135

SeagullUK
11-23-2006, 09:27 AM
So from this list which 16 go straight into the RR stage and which 16 have to play-off? How do the points work? A little info from the ATP woukld not go amiss (or are they still working it out?)

CooCooCachoo
11-23-2006, 09:39 AM
Hmm, pretty much comparable to this year's event, so not really a deterioration of the event.

For those who care, here are the first RR guinea pigs.

Adelaide
1 Nieminen, Jarkko FIN 15
2 Djokovic, Novak SRB 16
3 Gasquet, Richard FRA 18
4 Stepanek, Radek CZE 19
5 Hewitt, Lleyton AUS 20
6 Hrbaty, Dominik SVK 21
7 Johansson, Joachim SWE 21 @
8 Clement, Arnaud FRA 42
9 Simon, Gilles FRA 45
10 Mathieu, Paul-Henri FRA 55
11 Mayer, Florian GER 57
12 Becker, Benjamin GER 58
13 Serra, Florent FRA 61
14 Tipsarevic, Janko SRB 65
15 Goldstein, Paul USA 72
16 Spadea, Vincent USA 74
17 Hajek, Jan CZE 76
18 Hernych, Jan CZE 77
19 Vassallo Arguello, Martin ARG 80
20 Dancevic, Frank CAN 87
21 Del Potro, Juan Martin ARG 91
22 Dlouhy, Lukas CZE 92
23 Kunitsyn, Igor RUS 93
24 Vanek, Jiri CZE 94
25 Delic, Amer USA 96
26 (Q)
27 (Q)
28 (Q)
29 (Q)
30 (WC)
31 (WC)
32 (WC)

Alternates
1. Korolev, Evgeny RUS 100
2. Sluiter, Raemon NED 104
3. Muller, Gilles LUX 106
4. Waske, Alexander GER 112
5. Vicente, Fernando ESP 113
6. Galvani, Stefano ITA 114
7. Pavel, Andrei ROM 115
8. Vik, Robin CZE 117
9. Hartfield, Diego ARG 119
10. Kubot, Lukasz POL 120
11. Economidis, Konstantinos GRE 122
12. Bogdanovic, Alex GBR 123
13. Moodie, Wesley RSA 125
14. Pashanski, Boris SRB 126
15. Querrey, Sam USA 127
16. Bolelli, Simone ITA 128
17. Berlocq, Carlos ARG 130
18. Zib, Tomas CZE 131
19. Fraile, Gorka ESP 132
20. De Voest, Rik RSA 135

Action Jackson
11-23-2006, 10:32 AM
The list was only posted as these are guys who are going to take part in the round robin experiment.

krystlel
11-23-2006, 10:43 AM
That round robin illustration is awesome. :eek:

I have a bad feeling that it won't matter too much what the test results of the round robin tournaments are, as already evidenced by the quotes and supposed 'research' they have done. It would seem a whole lot more credible if they came out with some statistics. It will be like the WTA on-court coaching experiment where apparently it was well-received by the general public, when no one even knows what the coaches are telling the players, so the whole idea of putting them on microphone had no effect on the entertainment value. And on the odd occasion that they do, it's usually only a message of encouragement. However, the WTA also admitted at the same time that they did it just because they can't enforce the coaching rule.

Action Jackson
11-23-2006, 10:51 AM
However, the WTA also admitted at the same time that they did it just because they can't enforce the coaching rule.

Good analogy with the WTA and the coaching thing. There is a simple way to cut down on the problem, what they couldn't put 2 people 1 each above the respective coaching corners and if they are the coaching, then have like a pager and the umpire receives a beep that coaching has taken place and deal with it there and then.

krystlel
11-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Good analogy with the WTA and the coaching thing. There is a simple way to cut down on the problem, what they couldn't put 2 people 1 each above the respective coaching corners and if they are the coaching, then have like a pager and the umpire receives a beep that coaching has taken place and deal with it there and then.
Yes, they could use some extra volunteers although that would be a change that tournament organizers (who seem to be placed at the highest priority) may be reluctant to put in place. I personally wouldn't expect that ATP or WTA to implement something like that though. I just don't see why they can't keep the no-coaching rule as it is even if it is abused sometimes. I would simply suggest that coaches be monitored more closely or perhaps they could increase the penalty. Not to mention that the on-court coaching doesn't solve the problem entirely anyway since coaches are still likely to be coaching from the stands outside of their allocated time.

So a qualifier could play
3 Qualifying matches
1 Play off Round
2 Round Robin Matches
1 Quarter Final
1 Semi Final
1 Final
which means 9 matches in one event !!!!!
Interesting. That should make it a tall order for qualifiers to take out a RR tournament. So I take it, that's 2 matches more than under the knock-out format.

avocadoe
11-23-2006, 01:11 PM
So a qualifier could play
3 Qualifying matches
1 Play off Round
2 Round Robin Matches
1 Quarter Final
1 Semi Final
1 Final

which means 9 matches in one event !!!!!
rarely does a qualifier go the distance...will there be decent money and points for their efforts? if so, they might be glad. Looks like the seeds get 5 matches which is ordinary with a bit of wiggle room not to fall out with one bad day. I don't like it, anyway.

JustmeUK
11-23-2006, 06:24 PM
If there are some strange betting results then this might put paid to this format double quick. It really opens up to some abuse for spread betting.

Via
11-23-2006, 09:58 PM
now my maths isn't that great ;p but i think qualifiers play one match more than now, not two.

basically the current system already has features like qualifying and byes to protect the higher ranked players; the new RR and play-off round will add to that protection. life is getting even harder for the battlers....

+alonso
11-23-2006, 10:41 PM
This is pretty bad, Viña is the only IS which the draw is just for 24 players! bleeeh!

superhoops
11-23-2006, 11:22 PM
I saw 4 fantastic matches at Queens last year and for only £14 (plus a tube ticket to Kensignton) and being on court 1 (outside court). I was on the 3rd row right behind the players family and friends so i got to see Shane Warne. I got to see:

Scud v Gonzo - good match
Blake v Ginepri - hard hitting and entertaining
Hewitt v Miryni - again brillant match
Roddick v Schriphan - brillant match, probably the best of the 4

I have a feeling RR will take away the excitement of the matches but as I am going on a Thursday )hopefully), it will be down to the last 16 so the tennis should be good but bloody RR might f**k it up.

*Ljubica*
11-24-2006, 10:45 AM
now my maths isn't that great ;p but i think qualifiers play one match more than now, not two.

basically the current system already has features like qualifying and byes to protect the higher ranked players; the new RR and play-off round will add to that protection. life is getting even harder for the battlers....

Yes - I agree - and from what I can tell - that is their intention :rolleyes: Etienne and his pals only care about the "big" players like Nadal and Federer, and the fairweather fans, who may come out for one evening to see a "star" player live but couldn't be bothered with following a tournament from beginning to end. The don't care about how hard it will be for young players just starting out in their careers, for older ones returning from injury, or just for the "journeymen" (I hate that word) - who make an honest living from tennis without ever reaching the Top 20. The whole thing sucks - because it protects the interests of the higher ranked and takes away a lot of hope and chances from the others - I hate it.

Via
11-24-2006, 11:44 PM
I saw 4 fantastic matches at Queens last year and for only £14 (plus a tube ticket to Kensignton) and being on court 1 (outside court). I was on the 3rd row right behind the players family and friends so i got to see Shane Warne. I got to see:

Scud v Gonzo - good match
Blake v Ginepri - hard hitting and entertaining
Hewitt v Miryni - again brillant match
Roddick v Schriphan - brillant match, probably the best of the 4

I have a feeling RR will take away the excitement of the matches but as I am going on a Thursday )hopefully), it will be down to the last 16 so the tennis should be good but bloody RR might f**k it up.

that seems like excellent value for a thursday ground pass... (but shane warne... ?? :tape: )

Yes - I agree - and from what I can tell - that is their intention :rolleyes: Etienne and his pals only care about the "big" players like Nadal and Federer, and the fairweather fans, who may come out for one evening to see a "star" player live but couldn't be bothered with following a tournament from beginning to end. The don't care about how hard it will be for young players just starting out in their careers, for older ones returning from injury, or just for the "journeymen" (I hate that word) - who make an honest living from tennis without ever reaching the Top 20. The whole thing sucks - because it protects the interests of the higher ranked and takes away a lot of hope and chances from the others - I hate it.

i don't know how the 'lowly' players cope when it's so hard to break into the top... the latest plans from atp certainly won't help with their motivation. how can such a system encourage newcomers into the professional, when their chances of making a living is close to winning lotto, i don't know.

as for the casual fans, they may only like a certain 'star' player for a while, when that guy retires or simply not playing well, they will go watch something else, not necessarily tennis.

Labamba
12-05-2006, 08:53 AM
Stuttgart and Pörtschach added to the RR list? Queen's is off it? :shrug:

Action Jackson
12-05-2006, 08:55 AM
There must have been a big stink about Queens being on the list from some people.

No surprise Ronnie wanted Pörtschach to be on there, but Stuttgart as a RR too bad.

SeagullUK
12-12-2006, 01:36 PM
OK apologies if I am going over old ground here but is this how it will work for Adelaide.
16 players in qualifying playing 2 rounds leaving 4 qualifiers. These 4 players + 3 Wild Cards + numbers 17-25 on the entry list play a knockout round to join those ranked 1-16 on the entry list??

Sunset of Age
12-12-2006, 04:46 PM
The whole RR concept makes me shudder... :fiery:
It is, as Rosie already pointed out, protective to the big stars and makes early upsets nearly impossible. And here I am, always :worship: -ing those guys that manage to get a Big Star's ass kicked... I guess I won't be seeing that happening a lot anymore. :awww:

Something else: it will be a lot harder for 'new' stars to climb the ranks. Has Mr. Disney thought about the fact that no player has eternal life, and that as such tennis, like all other sports, need regular 'refreshment' of stars? :banghead:

Rosebud
12-13-2006, 12:01 AM
I think some are perhaps over reacting a little. So next year a group of minor events will try out this curious but still interesting mixture of RR and knock-out format. It will hardly mean the the end of the world, will it? I've read a couple of threads on the front page and one gets the feeling that there's an awfull lot of doom-and-gloom rethoric just for the sake of it being spewed. Every move the ATP or WTA makes, is by definition wrong, given a chance all ATP players will almost certainly succomb to favouritism and will therefore contrive to keep their 'pals' in tournaments by match fixing, a successful corporate executive by definition ought to be discredited simply because he has worked in the entertainment industry, all minor tournaments that will trial RR are doomed - the poor things, etc, etc. All sounds rather hysterical to me, or at the very least a bit extreme. One gets the feeling that many are pretty set - stuck if you ask me - in their ways and afraid of changes, experiments, innovations, trial of new or even old ideas. Because round robin is hardly something new, it wasn't even new when it was used in the first Grand Prix Masters in 1970. Throughout the history of the game there have been other experiments, some more successfull than others but I doubt there's ever been such an extremist communal knee-jerk reaction as you see on here. All in all, I can't say that any argument I've read so far against this trial of part RR/part knock-out format has convinced me that it indeed is such a terrible idea. On the one hand one could make the point that it supposedly 'goes against' the ethics of the sport if a player can lose a match and still win a tournament, then again isn't round robin actually a much more effective way of making sure the better players make it to the latter stages of an event? Are players in general indeed so opportune as some on here claim to have knowledge of? And if there will indeed be less chances of upsets, does it really matter that much in the whole scheme of things, if the better players in the end advance. A young developing player will still have to continue maturing (who knows, into a future better player) even after an upset and a journeyman player will still have that win over a Federer or a Nadal to treasure. Not one of these trails has even taken place, yet everyone seems convinced it will lead to all sorts of horrible and nasty things, as if someone were about to open Pandora's box. Why are people so afraid of these innocent little experiments? Can anyone in in all honesty say they believe these will alter tennis at it's very core? Frankly, I find that a ludicrous notion.

Action Jackson
12-13-2006, 01:51 AM
We have one of De Villiers assistants in here.

Via
12-13-2006, 01:57 AM
lol

i guess if you don't agree with an opinion then everyone else who holds it is over-reacting.

nobama
12-13-2006, 02:58 AM
lol

i guess if you don't agree with an opinion then everyone else who holds it is over-reacting.Or your called one of De Villiers assistants. ;)

Labamba
12-13-2006, 09:58 PM
An article in French "Tennis" Magazine explains how the matches will work
in the Round Robin

MATCH ONE

The two lower ranked players in the Group will play first

MATCH TWO

The Loser of match one plays against the high ranked player

MATCH THREE

The higher ranked player will play against the winner of match one.


TIES
If the Loser of match one manages to beat the high ranked player
and the high ranked player wins the last match....

Then all players finish on one win

Winner decided on percentage of Sets won
OR if needed
Winner decided on percentage of Games won

Next Question..

What happens in the quarter final draw??

Is it seeded before or after the RR is played

Does the Winner of the Round Robin group with the first seed in it go in to top of draw ??

or will the highest ranked winner after the Round Robin Groups get Number one seed???

from the 2007 ATP Rulebook:

This draw for the groups also establishes the pairings for the finals round as the winner of Group 1 advances to line 1 of the finals draw; winner of Group 2 advances to line 2 of the finals draw and so forth.

http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/ATP_Rulebook2007.pdf

Wojtek
12-14-2006, 03:13 PM
Anyone knows which events will use Round Robin System

TimHenmanFan
12-15-2006, 03:34 AM
round robin? what a stupid idea

wally1
12-15-2006, 08:38 PM
Might have been posted earlier, but in this months ACE they had a Q&A with Andy Murray, where one of the questions was the following:-

Q If you could change one thing on the ATP tour, what would it be?

A I would like them not to do the round robin. I really think it's a bad idea. You have a pretty successful sport as it is and I think you are just opening the door to controversy. You'll get the situation that if Federer loses (which he does a few times a year), it's not going to be a surprise because he can still win the event. Up to now there has been no room for complacency: you lose a match and you are out of the tournament. Now you will be able to lose and still win a tournament. I just don't think that's the way tennis should be played. There's also more betting on tennis and the round robin format could make it easier to fix matches.

Interesting as I'd never heard his opinion before...

Via
12-15-2006, 10:20 PM
this was posted by marine on clement's forum... he was interviewed on l'equipe, i believe at the paris open

Clément est très remonté.Le sourire aux lèvres, Arnaud Clément est toujours heureux lorsqu'il déambule dans les couloirs de Bercy. Un tournoi qu'il adore disputer et auquel il a participé chaque année depuis 1997, mis à part en 2003. "Il peut y avoir des ambiances de dingue ici", explique-t-il, l'oeil pétillant. "Nadal ou pas Nadal, Federer ou pas Federer, j'ai toujours connu une super ambiance à Bercy." Un esprit bon enfant, qui ne lui fait toutefois pas oublier les problèmes auxquels sont confrontés les joueurs sur le circuit...

Invité à donner son point de vue sur la cascade de forfaits qui a une nouvelle fois décimé ce grand rendez-vous de fin d'année, Arnaud Clément s'est soudainement emballé en poussant un véritable coup de gueule: "Il y a des choses vraiment hallucinantes. Pourquoi continue-t-on à faire jouer la finale de Bâle en cinq sets juste avant Bercy ? Si la finale avait été en trois sets gagnants, Federer se serait économisé et aurait peut-être pu venir à Paris. Qui sait ? Ce genre de choses, c'est vraiment facile à régler, avant de vouloir faire des réformes de fond."
"ll faut faire quoi ? Un boycott, la révolution ?"

Quant au système de poules qui sera mis en place pour quelques tournois à partir de la saison prochaine, l'Aixois a aussi son mot à dire et un message à faire passer: "Tous les joueurs avec qui j'ai évoqué le sujet, aucun n'était pour les poules. Le problème, c'est que je n'ai pas l'impression que ma voix compte. Il faut faire quoi pour qu'on nous entende ? Un boycott, la révolution ? La voix d'un gars classé 40e ne compte malheureusement pas ! Les poules, je trouve ça mauvais. Je ne vois pas en quoi ça va aider. Je ne vois aucun intérêt pour personne. Le tennis, ce n'est pas des matches de Ligue des Champions ! Ce système de poules ne m'excite pas personnellement, mais peut-être que les gens vont aimer voir un joueur se faire éliminer deux fois..."

Sur sa lancée, la Clé continue de dire avec sincérité ce qu'il a sur le coeur: "On est là chaque semaine, c'est facile de faire circuler un papier avec 'Etes-vous pour ou contre tel ou tel projet?'. Au lieu de ça, nous les joueurs, on n'a même pas été informé précisément sur le sujet !" Le malaise est en tous les cas bien profond et les instances de l'ATP et de l'ITF ne peuvent pas l'ignorer...

a translation for the round robins bit... "All the players with whom I evoked the subject, none was for RR. The problem, it is that I do not have the impression that my voice counts. It should be done what so that us are heard? A boycott, the revolution? The voice of a guy classified 40e does not count unfortunately! RR, I find that bad. I do not see in what that will help. I do not see any interest for anybody. Tennis, they are not matches of League of the Champions! (...soccer...) This RR system does not excite me personally, but perhaps that people will like to see a player being made eliminate twice…”

Sunset of Age
12-15-2006, 11:42 PM
Might have been posted earlier, but in this months ACE they had a Q&A with Andy Murray, where one of the questions was the following:-

Q If you could change one thing on the ATP tour, what would it be?

A I would like them not to do the round robin. I really think it's a bad idea. You have a pretty successful sport as it is and I think you are just opening the door to controversy. You'll get the situation that if Federer loses (which he does a few times a year), it's not going to be a surprise because he can still win the event. Up to now there has been no room for complacency: you lose a match and you are out of the tournament. Now you will be able to lose and still win a tournament. I just don't think that's the way tennis should be played. There's also more betting on tennis and the round robin format could make it easier to fix matches.

Interesting as I'd never heard his opinion before...

Wow, ANDY!!! :worship:

Action Jackson
12-17-2006, 06:15 AM
Might have been posted earlier, but in this months ACE they had a Q&A with Andy Murray, where one of the questions was the following:-

Q If you could change one thing on the ATP tour, what would it be?

A I would like them not to do the round robin. I really think it's a bad idea. You have a pretty successful sport as it is and I think you are just opening the door to controversy. You'll get the situation that if Federer loses (which he does a few times a year), it's not going to be a surprise because he can still win the event. Up to now there has been no room for complacency: you lose a match and you are out of the tournament. Now you will be able to lose and still win a tournament. I just don't think that's the way tennis should be played. There's also more betting on tennis and the round robin format could make it easier to fix matches.

Interesting as I'd never heard his opinion before...

Thanks for that posting Wally, good to see Muzza has an opinion on it.

Via
12-18-2006, 10:05 PM
arnaud clement looks like he cannot keep his mouth shut about the latest changes! translated excerpt from another recent interview (http://www.sport365.fr/tennis/atp/infos/article_142260_-Retrouver-cette-regularite-en-2007-.shtml): (thanks irina/hangdog!)

Aren’t you tired of the players who refer to their level and who, for example, let Bercy down and left it without three best players of the world?
The thing I find mind-blowing is that there are so many players who have to play five-set finals on the eve of Masters Series. If Roger Federer won Basel in 2 sets he would probably play in Bercy. They’d better think about regulating very simple things before making their great fundamental reforms.

Players can’t affect on these questions?
I don’t know if there are masses or the great players who have some weight there. Next year they organize RR tournaments without asking us a question. The system takes its first place in Adelaide in January and I haven’t met a player who would be positive for it. They should be somewhere but I don’t know them and I don’t know who address me to.

These words look like a curse…
Yes, I’m rather angry with all of it. Personally, I’m totally against this system because I find it pathetic. I don’t see how it’s going to help us. Everyone can have his or her own point of view but they should ask our opinion. And they have no other interests except financial ones. Tennis has a spirit which everyone must respect.

You were also against those new innovations of video system. Have you changed your opinion since it was involved in usage?
No, my opinion hasn’t been changed because I still suppose the conditions must be the same for all the players of the same tournament wherever they play, on the central court or on a court number 12.

16681
12-19-2006, 06:00 AM
I agree with the quoted players. I hate Round Robin :mad: And the change is being made to help the popularity of tennis while personally I think it will hurt the sport. And cause tennis to have even less fans :sad:

Sunset of Age
12-20-2006, 12:55 AM
Good to read Clement has spoken up as well against that RR-idiocy.

LaTenista
12-22-2006, 07:46 PM
Urrgggh, this is still making my head hurt. Hope Adelaide is a flop/mess so this idea can be killed.

greatkingrat
12-22-2006, 08:17 PM
Please let me know if the following in the new rule book is an error??
Page 157 Round Robin Points Table


I think that it is an error as if you look on page 159 the entry ranking points are the same for both normal and round-robin 800K tournaments.

shotgun
01-04-2007, 04:40 PM
Out of the eight seeds in Adelaide, only two (Gasquet and Djokovic) advanced to the quarterfinals. If Mr. Disney's goal was to benefit the top players by giving them more chances to advance to the QF than the average player, by allowing them to "have a day off" and even lose a match, then we can say that his goal wasn't achieved at all. :D

Of course, we will only be able to tell for sure when we compare the Adelaide tournament revenues from this year to previous years, and see if there was a significant increase or not. And it's also important to notice that this is the first week of the season and it's the time of the year when the most upsets occur.

Action Jackson
01-05-2007, 03:16 AM
Adelaide is moving anyway, so it made sense to them to try and use this RR format, but yes Mr Disney this has made the event a lot easier to follow with this format.

fenomeno2111
01-05-2007, 03:56 AM
Im going to Delray, let's see how it works out... I hate the idea though:o

Action Jackson
01-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Adelaide what a joke, look at the ranking points del Potro gets or doesn't get for his matches.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=4643687&postcount=46

Kalliopeia
01-08-2007, 11:57 AM
Wow. That's just insane. Why do they even bother letting anyone ranked below 20 into a tournament if it's going to be that biased anyway?

Conita
01-08-2007, 03:01 PM
Rr Sucks!! ¬¬

Kalliopeia
01-27-2007, 12:35 PM
Here we go Again:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.atptennis.com/1/posting/2007/499/mde.pdf

http://www.atptennis.com/1/posting/2007/499/mds.pdf



God the round robin draw sheets just make my head hurt.

scoobs
01-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Not one but two this week - one using 32-H and one using 24.

My brain hurts already.

victor_gospo
01-27-2007, 01:22 PM
In the 32 player top players wouldn't play the RR qualifier and go straight to the elimination stage of the tournament.

This is ridiculous. If the idea is to make sure you see top players twice your better seeds could still be gone after just one match.

The early RR qualifier stage would probably generate the same interest as any normal qualy for a traditional ATP event, in other words very little.

For the 24 or 48 I don't imagine may top ten players going to those tournaments anyway, the prize money is very little. Unless they want to perform in front of their home crowds, so you're still not gonna see too many top players anyway. If they don't go to a tournament you don't see them even once.

Action Jackson
01-28-2007, 04:46 AM
2008 can't come quickly enough.

*Viva Chile*
01-28-2007, 04:51 AM
2008 can't come quickly enough.
And Mr. Disney will evaluate RR as "the best idea ever, and everybody is supporting it" at the end of the year :mad: :o

Action Jackson
01-28-2007, 04:52 AM
And Mr. Disney will evaluate RR as "the best idea ever, and everybody is supporting it" at the end of the year :mad: :o

Well it seems that there are some people around who are very confident that it will be scrapped.

Merton
01-28-2007, 05:08 AM
After the hype when they started talking about RR last year there is not much positive publicity these days. Hopefully these tournaments will revert to the normal format and RR will die.

sondraj06
01-28-2007, 05:15 AM
I think I get it, I like it. It's like other sports where you don't just play a team once and then get eliminated. In basketball we do it like that. There are several games that determine the winner in the end. It's like that with american football execpt for the superbowl that's only one game. But mulitple games are played to see who's is truly the best and not who is best that moment of time in that week of that tournament. Which to me seems to be what tennis is a lot of times.

sondraj06
01-28-2007, 05:17 AM
Or shit maybe I don't get, if yall understand what I mean, please reasure me that I know what I'm talking about here.

Action Jackson
01-28-2007, 05:19 AM
Or shit maybe I don't get, if yall understand what I mean, please reasure me that I know what I'm talking about here.

R=FK what are you on about. You were a big supporter of RR in 2006 what don't you get now?

sondraj06
01-28-2007, 05:20 AM
R=FK what are you on about. You were a big supporter of RR in 2006 what don't you get now?

I was talking about if I understand how it works, is that o.k with you, oh good I have your permission.:angel:

Action Jackson
01-28-2007, 05:23 AM
I was talking about if I understand how it works, is that o.k with you, oh good I have your permission.:angel:

You got it right initially.

Just look at the draw for Adelaide or the upcoming Delray Beach and Viña del Mar and read that, then you will see exactly how it works.

sondraj06
01-28-2007, 05:25 AM
Then It's official I like it. But it would suck because if some one besides Roger starts winning, the first thing out of every one's mouth will be well he coulnd't do if it were the way it's been since the birth of tennis. So it's not fair. And all of the nay sayers will have a field day. So i'm kind of dreeding it. Although I think it's more fair this way.

RogerRocks
01-28-2007, 09:26 AM
I quite like the plan. It sounds interesting somehow.

Hendu
02-14-2007, 08:24 PM
Bastad and Queens rejected the Round Robin system. Any other tournaments to follow?

Adelaide, Viña del Mar and Delray Beach already used the system. Buenos Aires will use it the next week.

t0x
02-14-2007, 08:26 PM
WELL DONE QUEENS! CMON:D

I'm dead chuffed as you can tell lol. I mean Queens is normally one of my fave tournies, RR would of ruined it.

scoobs
02-14-2007, 08:39 PM
I find it very interesting that, after three tournaments have played RR, a further two have now pulled out of the idea.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these tournaments sent someone down to Adelaide, or perhaps Delray Beach, to see how they're implementing it.

Maybe they saw it in action and thought "fuck that for a laugh"

Deboogle!.
02-14-2007, 08:42 PM
I think it's important, or at least relevant, to note that the two tourneys that have dropped it ran into problems because they both come the week after a slam and the slams don't want their tourney finals to coincide with the beginning of a smaller event (fair enough). So it doesn't seem like either tournament wholly rejected RR on the principles we all did, but because they simply couldn't work it out....

It also highlights the fact that it is a logistical nightmare to schedule all of these matches. Especially at a place like Queens where they can't play at night and the # of matches per day must be limited to save the grass's condition.

Hendu
02-14-2007, 08:48 PM
I think it's important, or at least relevant, to note that the two tourneys that have dropped it ran into problems because they both come the week after a slam and the slams don't want their tourney finals to coincide with the beginning of a smaller event (fair enough). So it doesn't seem like either tournament wholly rejected RR on the principles we all did, but because they simply couldn't work it out....

It also highlights the fact that it is a logistical nightmare to schedule all of these matches. Especially at a place like Queens where they can't play at night and the # of matches per day must be limited to save the grass's condition.

Newport also follows a Slam, but they use the 24 player RR, so I think they don't need one more day of play.

None of the other tournaments is played in the week after a Grand slam.

Sunset of Age
02-14-2007, 08:50 PM
Perhaps with all the seeds falling out like they do, TPTB might consider Marseille for the RR format next year... :sad:

Deboogle!.
02-14-2007, 08:51 PM
Newport also follows a Slam, but they use the 24 player RR, so I think they don't need one more day of play.

None of the other tournaments are played in the week after a Grand slam.that's my point though, that we might be reading too much into the fact that Bastad and Queens ditched it. It's not like they saw it other places and decided it sucked, it's that they need a 6th day to complete all the matches and can't because RG and Wimbledon will be pissed. I mean it's good that they dropped it regardless of why, but yeah.

scoobs
02-14-2007, 08:54 PM
Could be just the fact they can't start on Sunday, could be wider concerns.

We'll have to see if any more follow suit or whether the remaining 8 play it as planned.

Hendu
02-14-2007, 08:55 PM
that's my point though, that we might be reading too much into the fact that Bastad and Queens ditched it. It's not like they saw it other places and decided it sucked, it's that they need a 6th day to complete all the matches and can't because RG and Wimbledon will be pissed. I mean it's good that they dropped it regardless of why, but yeah.

yes, thats what the articles posted in the other threads say. Anyway, its good news.

Hendu
02-14-2007, 08:59 PM
Could be just the fact they can't start on Sunday, could be wider concerns.

We'll have to see if any more follow suit or whether the remaining 8 play it as planned.

I hope other tournaments follow. Delray Beach was able to start on Sunday.

Shrinking Violet
02-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Two less wasted tournaments can only be good news. The sooner the whole sorry experiment is over the better.

Kalliopeia
02-14-2007, 10:16 PM
that's my point though, that we might be reading too much into the fact that Bastad and Queens ditched it. It's not like they saw it other places and decided it sucked, it's that they need a 6th day to complete all the matches and can't because RG and Wimbledon will be pissed. I mean it's good that they dropped it regardless of why, but yeah.

Well that's a good point but surely they could have foreseen that problem long before now, right? It's not like it'd take a genius to work it out. Maybe they figured if it went over well in other places they'd figure it out and if not, they wouldn't bother.

Action Jackson
02-17-2007, 05:27 AM
This week is a week free of RR events at the IS level.

As for Queens and Båstad giving it away, it's not cause they did it out of love for the game, but as the saying goes sometimes the ends justify the means.

scoobs
02-17-2007, 05:32 AM
Not next week, alas - Goddam Buenos Aired. 33RR-H. pah.