Who was/is the better player historically: Guga or Hewitt? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Who was/is the better player historically: Guga or Hewitt?

sawan66278
10-04-2006, 04:25 PM
After reading the article on Guga's latest attempt at coming back (with his former coach this time), I started looking at past rankings and the like. In 2000, Guga ended the year #1, and, had he not had the hip injuries, would have almost definitely ended 2001 as #1 as well...instead of Hewitt.

So, who would you say was the better overall player? I have to say, if both are healthy, Guga!!!!

Any opinions?

Deathless Mortal
10-04-2006, 04:42 PM
Guga, for sure.:)

Himura
10-04-2006, 04:55 PM
Not sure....Hewitt has more titles but Guga has one more slam. Hewitt won on two different surfaces and guga on one. Hewitt really dominated the sport in two years. Hewitt was really good back then even though maybe Guga is a better overall player. HAHAHAH i don`t know, maybe Hewitt

Rogiman
10-04-2006, 05:03 PM
Close call, with Hewitt's triumph over Guga on the Brazilian clay in straight sets in 2001 DC making it even tougher.

For sure Guga is the more watchable of the two.

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 05:03 PM
Guga edges it I think, not just because of Slams won but also by virtue of reaching 3 Slam QFs off clay (1 Wimbledon, 2 US) to Hewitt's 2 at RG. Not to mention a much better Masters Series resume with titles on clay and hard, which probably balances out Hewitt's 2 TMCs to Guga's 1. Close call when you weigh everything up, though!

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 05:08 PM
Mind you, Hewitt has made 1 more Slam final, and was no. 1 for twice as many weeks.... I wouldn't like to make the decision if pressed.

Checho
10-04-2006, 05:16 PM
I think Hewitt was better, because he has won two different Grand Slams, and two Masters Cup.

Guga has won only one Master Cup and three times Roland Garros, but in the others slams he hasn't done too much.

sawan66278
10-04-2006, 05:22 PM
Head to head: 3-1 in favor of Hewitt....but remember, two of those victories came during the Guga injury years...

And Hewitt really didn't dominate 2001, he became #1 at the year-end Masters...Guga was really dominating the tour that year...up to the injuries and the quarters of the U.S. Open...his hard court season was great!!!!

Guga lost so many matches in the first round after the Open...he couldn't even win a round robin match at the Masters...all because of the injuries!!!

Guga would have almost certainly ended the year #1 again without the injuries...

WE NEED GUGA BACK!!!!!!!!!

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 05:28 PM
Not a good match-up for Guga anyway though, with Hewitt returning so well and flinging everything back at him; I mean he beat Kuerten on clay in Brazil in prime form in 2001, if you can beat him in those circumstances you can do it anywhere.

I suppose one of the great "what ifs" is what would have happened had it been Guga instead of Kafelnikov against Hewitt in the 2001 US Open semis - no 80-minute drubbing for sure, but I still reckon Hewitt would have won, and he was a deserved year-end no. 1 in the end. Kuerten's injuries didn't win him those US Open and TMC crowns single-handedly.

MisterQ
10-04-2006, 05:38 PM
That's a tough call! It's close and I could understand arguments for both players.

I would have to go with Hewitt, even though he has fewer slams. One reason is that Guga's slam results outside of Roland Garros are poorer than Hewitt's general grand slam results (Guga's best were 2 USO QF, 1 Wimb QF, and 1 AO 3rd round). Another reason is the sense that Hewitt was truly the best player in the world for about two years. It's easy to forget now just how much his fight and consistency were feared by those who played him.

NyGeL
10-04-2006, 05:39 PM
Hewitt was very consistent and regular in most surfaces. I mean, checking all his results at their best moment, Hewitt is much more better I think.

but Guga's tennis was better. The best Kuerten would kick ass from Hewitt's best.

and well... guga also lost to Hrbaty in DC 2000 (at home).

Rogiman
10-04-2006, 05:42 PM
Guga:

Grand Slams titles: (3) Roland Garros (97, 00, 01)

Grand Slam QFs: (5) Wimbledon (99), USO (99,01), RG (99, 04).

Masters-Series titles: (5) Monte Carlo (99, 01), Rome (99), Hamburg (00), Cincinnati (01)

TMC titles: (1) 2000

Career titles: 20

Weeks at number 1: 43

Year-End number 1: (1) 2000



Hewitt:

Grand Slam titles: (2) USO (01), Wimbledon (02)

Grand Slam finals: (2) USO (04), AO (05)

Grand Slam SFs: (4) USO (00, 02, 05), Wimbledon (05)

Grand Slam QFs: (6) RG (01, 04), Wimbledon (04, 06), USO (03, 06)

Masters-Series titles: (2) Indian Wells (02, 03)

TMC titles: (2) 2001, 2002

Career titles: 25

Weeks at number 1: 80


Year-End number 1: (2) 2001, 2002


You judge :p

Lee
10-04-2006, 05:46 PM
Without injuries, I will give Guga the edge.

Guga's game matured at 2000, especially on surface other than clay. After winning TMC 2000, he's confident he can win on faster surface and even though he was playing injured during US hard court season in 2001, he managed to win TMS Cincy, lost to Agassi SF in LA, lost to Roddick in TMC Canada, retired in the final vs Rafter in Indianapolis and QF to Kafelnikov in USO. All these are quality players on hard court.

Without his hip injuries, he can definitely challenge any top 10 hard court players and continues to reign on clay courts a few more years. Guga's serve is very very good and he can hit with power and precision from both wings.

MisterQ
10-04-2006, 05:51 PM
Without injuries, I will give Guga the edge.

Guga's game matured at 2000, especially on surface other than clay. After winning TMC 2000, he's confident he can win on faster surface and even though he was playing injured during US hard court season in 2001, he managed to win TMS Cincy, lost to Agassi SF in LA, lost to Roddick in TMC Canada, retired in the final vs Rafter in Indianapolis and QF to Kafelnikov in USO. All these are quality players on hard court.

Without his hip injuries, he can definitely challenge any top 10 hard court players and continues to reign on clay courts a few more years. Guga's serve is very very good and he can hit with power and precision from both wings.

I agree with you, Lee, that without injuries Guga could quite easily have run away with the lead. (Going by actual results, however, I have to lean towards Hewitt).

Anyway, if there's any doubt that Guga could play on hard court, here's his 2001 Cincinnati draw!:

1st Round Andy Roddick (USA) 24 7-6(3) 6-1
2nd Round Tommy Haas (Germany) 22 7-6(4) 7-6(10)
Round of 16 Goran Ivanisevic (Croatia) 11 6-2 6-1
QF Yevgeny Kafelnikov (Russia) 10 6-4 3-6 6-4
SF Tim Henman (UK) 8 6-2 1-6 7-6(4)
Final Patrick Rafter (Australia) 4 6-1 6-3

stebs
10-04-2006, 05:52 PM
Hewitt but not by much. I think people may have the tendancy to edge toward Guga purely because he is so likeable.

Corey Feldman
10-04-2006, 05:52 PM
I give my vote to Hewitt.. 100%
he handed Guga his arse on a plate in 2001 on clay in brazil of all places, and guga was in prime form on clay then, if that wasnt enough then he demolished him again in that Indian Wells final a few years later.

guga has 1 more slam, but Rocky has won 2 different slams which sits better with me.

And Hewitt really didn't dominate 2001, he became #1 at the year-end Masters...Guga was really dominating the tour that year...up to the injuries and the quarters of the U.S. Open...his hard court season was great!!!!rubbish... Guga was king of clay again in 01, he didnt dominate everything else.

ChinoRios4Ever
10-04-2006, 05:55 PM
too close
i think hewitt

Lee
10-04-2006, 05:59 PM
I agree with you, Lee, that without injuries Guga could quite easily have run away with the lead. (Going by actual results, however, I have to lean towards Hewitt).

Anyway, if there's any doubt that Guga could play on hard court, here's his 2001 Cincinnati draw!:

1st Round Andy Roddick (USA) 24 7-6(3) 6-1
2nd Round Tommy Haas (Germany) 22 7-6(4) 7-6(10)
Round of 16 Goran Ivanisevic (Croatia) 11 6-2 6-1
QF Yevgeny Kafelnikov (Russia) 10 6-4 3-6 6-4
SF Tim Henman (UK) 8 6-2 1-6 7-6(4)
Final Patrick Rafter (Australia) 4 6-1 6-3


Thanks Q!

:eek: I didn't notice he defeated 4 Slam winners and 2 TMS winners.

Rogiman
10-04-2006, 06:01 PM
Thanks Q!

:eek: I didn't notice he defeated 4 Slam winners and 2 TMS winners.

Mind you, it took Roddick 2 more years to win his Slam, and Haas and Henman were not TMS winners at that time :p

Corey Feldman
10-04-2006, 06:04 PM
I agree with you, Lee, that without injuries Guga could quite easily have run away with the lead. (Going by actual results, however, I have to lean towards Hewitt).

Anyway, if there's any doubt that Guga could play on hard court, here's his 2001 Cincinnati draw!:

1st Round Andy Roddick (USA) 24 7-6(3) 6-1
2nd Round Tommy Haas (Germany) 22 7-6(4) 7-6(10)
Round of 16 Goran Ivanisevic (Croatia) 11 6-2 6-1
QF Yevgeny Kafelnikov (Russia) 10 6-4 3-6 6-4
SF Tim Henman (UK) 8 6-2 1-6 7-6(4)
Final Patrick Rafter (Australia) 4 6-1 6-3I still remember that day in 01.. what a nightmare, he finished of Henman in the morning after it was rained out the night before at a set all then came back an hour later to crush Rafter.

Lee
10-04-2006, 06:11 PM
Mind you, it took Roddick 2 more years to win his Slam, and Haas and Henman were not TMS winners at that time :p

:p

Nathaliia
10-04-2006, 06:13 PM
At first, I thought: "Guga". Then after going through stats, I'm not so sure, but the beauty of tennis and memory of fans are still on Guga's side.

shotgun
10-04-2006, 06:23 PM
Guga won more big titles (GS + TMS), while Hewitt had more consistent results throughout the years and was more of an all-surface player than Guga. I think they deserve to occupy pretty much the same place in history.

shotgun
10-04-2006, 06:26 PM
I give my vote to Hewitt.. 100%
he handed Guga his arse on a plate in 2001 on clay in brazil of all places, and guga was in prime form on clay then, if that wasnt enough then he demolished him again in that Indian Wells final a few years later.

I don't think this is about match-ups, but about their achievements.

The DC match was very atypical, and as for IW 2003, don't forget Guga had to play a three-setter against Schuettler in the morning, while Hewitt was rested.

cmurray
10-04-2006, 07:48 PM
I think Guga was the more naturally talented (obviously), but Hewitt has the results. I'm still going to go with Guga because I honestly believe him the superior player.

Nando_L
10-04-2006, 07:49 PM
Guga :p

propi
10-04-2006, 08:02 PM
Guga for sure, he could play on every surface with better results than Hewitt :)

Lee
10-04-2006, 08:04 PM
Guga for sure, he could play on every surface with better results than Hewitt :)

I'm not so sure about grass. :angel:

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 08:06 PM
I give my vote to Hewitt.. 100%
he handed Guga his arse on a plate in 2001 on clay in brazil of all places, and guga was in prime form on clay then, if that wasnt enough then he demolished him again in that Indian Wells final a few years later.

guga has 1 more slam, but Rocky has won 2 different slams which sits better with me.

rubbish... Guga was king of clay again in 01, he didnt dominate everything else.

Looking at the first half of 2001 it's really not hard to find the dominant players: Agassi on hard (AO, IW and Miami), Kuerten on clay (Monte Carlo, RG and final in Rome). Then of course Ivanisevic shook up everything with the Wimbledon victory, you had Pavel claiming the title in Montreal which ACE magazine attributed to a post-Wimbledon letdown by the top players, and then Guga winning in Cincy. Of course, when you look at who all three of those men beat to win their titles you could argue that Rafter was the dominant player at the time, certainly the most consistent anyway.

BTW, as someone who dislikes both Kuerten and Hewitt I know I can be fairly impartial on this issue. :p

Lleytonisthebest
10-04-2006, 09:24 PM
Hewitt for sure! he can play on all surfaces kuerten just on clay is a better player

sawan66278
10-05-2006, 04:51 AM
Sgengster, why do you dislike Guga?

Again, if you look at Hewitt's form now, with no real injuries, and Guga's ability to defeat Roger in straight sets at RG with injuries, I really feel that Guga, had he not had the hip injuries, would be clearly ahead...and who knows, with the slow grass at Wimbledon...he may even have won there!!!:cool:

NYCtennisfan
10-05-2006, 05:42 AM
Hewitt's achievements just edge those of Guga's mostly because he spent so many weeks at #1. One can argue that Hewitt was in the right place at the right time i.e. after Sampras and before Federer, but somebody had to be there and Hewitt was the one.

Corey Feldman
10-05-2006, 05:46 AM
Again, if you look at Hewitt's form now, with no real injuries, and Guga's ability to defeat Roger in straight sets at RG with injuries, I really feel that Guga, had he not had the hip injuries, would be clearly ahead...and who knows, with the slow grass at Wimbledon...he may even have won there!!!:cool:You do take your arseclown moments to new levels Sawan, i have to give you that.

vogus
10-05-2006, 05:55 AM
Hewitt edges out Kuerten. Even though Kuerten finished a season at #1, he only spent a couple of weeks in the top spot. Whereas Hewitt was the undisputed best player in the world for a solid year.

Kuerten's 3 RGs balance against Hewitt's 1 USO, 1 Wimby, plus the USO and Aussy finals. Kuerten was terrible at Wimbledon, Hewitt was terrible at the French, so that cancels out as well.

Hewitt leads Kuerten in GS semifinal appearances 8 to 3.

Kuerten won more TMS titles, but Hewitt should get some credit for winning Queens four times, it's not TMS but it's an important title.

One more factor is how many times Hewitt lost to Feds in Slams - you have to figure without Feds, Hewitt's resume would be stronger.

TennisGrandSlam
10-05-2006, 07:03 AM
Lleyton Hewitt: 25

98 - Adelaide
99 - Delray Beach
00 - Adelaide, Sydney, Scottsdale, Queens
01 - Sydney, Queens, 's-Hertogenbosch, US Open, Tokyo, Tennis Masters Cup
02 - San Jose, TMS Indian Wells, Queens, Wimbledon, Tennis Masters Cup
03 - Scottsdale, TMS Indian Wells
04 - Sydney, Rotterdam, Washington, Long Island
05 - Sydney
06 - Queens



Gustavo Kuerten: 20

97 - Roland Garros
98 - Stuttgart, Mallorca
99 - Monte Carlo, Rome
00 - Santiago, TMS Hamburg, Roland Garros, Indianapolis, Tennis Masters Cup
01 - Buenos Aires, Acapulco, TMS Monte Carlo, Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor, TMS Cincinnati
02 - Costa do Sauipe
03 - Auckland, St. Petersburg
04 - Costa do Sauipe

CmonAussie
10-05-2006, 08:07 AM
Lleyton Hewitt: 25

98 - Adelaide
99 - Delray Beach
00 - Adelaide, Sydney, Scottsdale, Queens
01 - Sydney, Queens, 's-Hertogenbosch, US Open, Tokyo, Tennis Masters Cup
02 - San Jose, TMS Indian Wells, Queens, Wimbledon, Tennis Masters Cup
03 - Scottsdale, TMS Indian Wells
04 - Sydney, Rotterdam, Washington, Long Island 04; Sydney
05 - Queens



Gustavo Kuerten: 20

97 - Roland Garros
98 - Stuttgart, Mallorca
99 - Monte Carlo, Rome
00 - Santiago, TMS Hamburg, Roland Garros, Indianapolis, Tennis Masters Cup
01 - Buenos Aires, Acapulco, TMS Monte Carlo, Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor, TMS Cincinnati
02 - Costa do Sauipe
03 - Auckland, St. Petersburg
04 - Costa do Sauipe
:wavey:
Nice job mate:cool:
You made a minor error with Hewitt`s last two titles~ Sydney was 05 & Queens was 06;) ...
Anyway I think if you look at their respective careers, plus the fact that Hewitt has helped Australia win a couple of Davis Cups:worship: (& another 2 DC finals)- and the fact that Federer has beaten Hewitt in 5-Slams over the past couple of years,..plus the fact that Hewitt`s tourney wins are spread more evenly than Guga`s we should be giving the edge to Rocky Llegs:angel: :devil: :)

However Kuerten still gets his props for being so important to South American tennis & especially to Brazilian tennis:worship: ....Guga`s legacy will probably be greater than Hewitt`s yet Lleyton has had the better career...& don`t forget that gutsy Aussie battler`s career isn`t finished yet-->> he`s still got a surprise or two left in him before he calls it a day;) .

World Beater
10-05-2006, 08:18 AM
:wavey:
Nice job mate:cool:
You made a minor error with Hewitt`s last two titles~ Sydney was 05 & Queens was 06;) ...
Anyway I think if you look at their respective careers, plus the fact that Hewitt has helped Australia win a couple of Davis Cups:worship: (& another 2 DC finals)- and the fact that Federer has beaten Hewitt in 5-Slams over the past couple of years,..plus the fact that Hewitt`s tourney wins are spread more evenly than Guga`s we should be giving the edge to Rocky Llegs:angel: :devil: :)

However Kuerten still gets his props for being so important to South American tennis & especially to Brazilian tennis:worship: ....Guga`s legacy will probably be greater than Hewitt`s yet Lleyton has had the better career...& don`t forget that gutsy Aussie battler`s career isn`t finished yet-->> he`s still got a surprise or two left in him before he calls it a day;) .


yes, for me it is arguable who is the better player...but hewitt certainly achieved more in his career.

Boris Franz Ecker
10-05-2006, 08:22 AM
Kuerten was nothing at 3 of 4 Grand Slams but he stays in history books because of winning this Paris tournament three times.
Hewitt had of course a little better career.

Both are comparable to 4-time-pseudo-slam-winner Vilas.

TennisGrandSlam
10-05-2006, 08:44 AM
Kuerten was nothing at 3 of 4 Grand Slams but he stays in history books because of winning this Paris tournament three times.
Hewitt had of course a little better career.

Both are comparable to 4-time-pseudo-slam-winner Vilas.



Vilas > C'mon or Guga :cool:

Magical Trevor
10-05-2006, 10:38 AM
I'd probably rate Lleyton just ahead of Kuerten, largely because Guga didn't do much at the AO and Wimbledon.

But it is very close and I can easily understand both arguments.

Guga's definitely the grooviest player of all time though. ;) He was way too cool for school

Neely
10-05-2006, 03:16 PM
Seldom lately that I read so many posts on just three pages which I agree to and think they all are right somehow no matter for what position they are.

It's very hard to decide it. By results, you could just look at these two with the attitude "Grand Slam titles is the only thing which counts", this gives Guga the edge by one title. On the other hand, isn't versatility like Hewitt showed it in the past, winning at two different Slams, having the better Slam record at Wimbledon, US Open and Australian Open also a big ability which needs to be considered? I think so.

Irrespective of results and judging game style, talent and natural game disposition I would clearly lean to Guga.

sawan66278
10-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Escude, if Rafa and Fat Dave can make it to the finals of Wimbledon, why couldn't Guga? He just never commited himself...but if he were fit?

Again, I'm not talking about career...but overall as a player...Guga at his best trumps, in my mind, Hewitt....and Vilas for that matter;)

Sjengster
10-05-2006, 03:38 PM
Sgengster, why do you dislike Guga?

Again, if you look at Hewitt's form now, with no real injuries, and Guga's ability to defeat Roger in straight sets at RG with injuries, I really feel that Guga, had he not had the hip injuries, would be clearly ahead...and who knows, with the slow grass at Wimbledon...he may even have won there!!!:cool:

What can I say, I have sensitive hearing. :p

The thing is, so much about succeeding on grass is the mindset. Yes, Nadal had a comparatively easy draw at Wimbledon this year, but the biggest reason for his success is that he believes he can win Wimbledon and wants to do so. Guga didn't believe he could and didn't want to, as emphasised by him skipping Wimbledon the year he was no. 1. He has the serve and the groundstroke power as shown by his QF appearance in 1999, but I still reckon his bigger swings and in particular his return position would have undone him on grass. Nadal was closer to the baseline and taking the ball earlier this year, I could easily see Guga losing to Labadze or Baghdatis with their powerful games.

Sjengster
10-05-2006, 03:44 PM
Escude, if Rafa and Fat Dave can make it to the finals of Wimbledon, why couldn't Guga? He just never commited himself...but if he were fit?

Again, I'm not talking about career...but overall as a player...Guga at his best trumps, in my mind, Hewitt....and Vilas for that matter;)

OK, Nadal is an interesting comparison as they are both clay-court greats, but since Nalbandian plays nothing at all like Guga there's no point bringing him up - they're both South American, they both have great backhands (very different types, of course), and that's about it.

Corey Feldman
10-05-2006, 04:15 PM
Escude, if Rafa and Fat Dave can make it to the finals of Wimbledon, why couldn't Guga? He just never commited himself...but if he were fit? he was fit plenty of times.... that fact the he WD in 2001 wimbledon when he was No1 in the world says it all about how he believed in himself on grass at Wimbledon.

and he was a great player on HC as well, but doesnt mean he felt as good about the 'slow grass' at wimby.
same as Rios, Corretja, Moya...

Leo
10-05-2006, 04:44 PM
I give Kuerten the edge with on more Slam and more TMS titles. It's always shocking to me that, even with Hewitt's dominance for a year and a half, he only won 2 Masters Series tournaments. And the second time around in Indian Wells he got lucky that El Aynaoui didn't put him away on match point. However, Hewitt has made deep runs in Slams more consistently than Kuerten.

CmonAussie
10-05-2006, 05:00 PM
I give Kuerten the edge with on more Slam and more TMS titles. It's always shocking to me that, even with Hewitt's dominance for a year and a half, he only won 2 Masters Series tournaments. And the second time around in Indian Wells he got lucky that El Aynaoui didn't put him away on match point. However, Hewitt has made deep runs in Slams more consistently than Kuerten.
:wavey:
When people use this "not enough TMS titles" argument against Hewitt I feel it`s unfair:sad: ...
Which is more important a Slam or TMS:confused:
Which is more important a TMC or a TMS:confused:
Which is more important a Davis Cup or a TMS:confused:
Which is more important holding down #1 for over 1.5 years successively or a TMS:confused:

1. Hewitt has won 2-Slams, 2-Finals, 4-SF, 6-QF:worship:
2. Hewitt has 2-TMC & another Final:p
3. Hewitt has 2-Davis Cups & another 2-Finals:cool:
4. Hewitt was back-to-back YE #1 from 2001-2002;)

So what if he only has 2-TMS titles...It`s pretty darn obvious that Hewitt isn`t that interested in TMS titles*; 2006 he skipped MC, Rome, Hamburg, Cincinatti (probably Madrid & Paris too), 2005 he skipped MC, Rome, Hamburg, Madrid & Paris...:p ~as he`s said many times his priority is doing well in the Slams & Davis Cup...

PS. Hewitt has also reached another 5-TMS finals & had some tough draws~~ a la vs Federerer at 05 Indian Wells final, vs Safin at 02 Paris...

PS2. Kafelnekov never won a TMS crown;) ~but he won 2-Slams, Olympic Gold & Davis Cup:worship:

PS3. The whole Super-9/TMS/AMS system looks likely to be overhauled by the ATP in the next couple of years & prior to 1990 it didn`t even exist:p ~no history = minimal prestige:devil:

name_change
10-05-2006, 05:05 PM
as much as i hate to say it, hewitt. :mad:

shotgun
10-05-2006, 05:24 PM
3. Hewitt has 2-Davis Cups & another 2-Finals:cool:


Hewitt had Philippoussis, Rafter and the Woodies helping him in Davis Cup. Kuerten had Meligeni (a pretty average 2nd singles player) and Oncins (a good doubles player but never came close to the Woodies).

Lee
10-05-2006, 05:26 PM
Hewitt had Philippoussis, Rafter and the Woodies helping him in Davis Cup. Kuerten had Meligeni (a pretty average 2nd singles player) and Oncins (a good doubles player but never came close to the Woodies).

Yes, I have a hard time when people put Davis Cup achievement in evaluating a player. It's OK if you talk about a match the player plays but it's unreasonable using winning the Davis Cup as an achievement.

Would anyone say Federer is not as good as a player because Switzerland hasn't won Davis Cup with him in the team?

TennisGrandSlam
10-05-2006, 05:27 PM
Who was/is the better player in 1977, Vilas or Connors? :rolleyes:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=4225775#post4225775

sawan66278
10-05-2006, 11:11 PM
Aside from Guga's injuries was his happy-go-lucky style...which led to things like the Wimbledon WD...but if you go by pure ability, again look what he did to Roger at RG in 2004, I go with Guga...do you really think that Hewitt could have beaten Pete and Andre back-to-back on an indoor surface? I don't think so...

MisterQ
10-06-2006, 12:52 AM
Aside from Guga's injuries was his happy-go-lucky style...which led to things like the Wimbledon WD...but if you go by pure ability, again look what he did to Roger at RG in 2004, I go with Guga...do you really think that Hewitt could have beaten Pete and Andre back-to-back on an indoor surface? I don't think so...

Between 2000 and 2002 Sampras was 2-6 against Hewitt, and Agassi was 2-3. (All of those match were on grass or hardcourt). So I don't see why not.

CmonAussie
10-06-2006, 02:22 AM
Between 2000 and 2002 Sampras was 2-6 against Hewitt, and Agassi was 2-3. (All of those match were on grass or hardcourt). So I don't see why not.

:wavey: ...Yeah Hewitt always struggled against the likes of Sampras~ that was obvious when Lleyton whipped Pete 7-6 6-1 6-1 at the 2001 US Open Final:p

Also Agassi gave Hewitt troubles from the outset~ like when Rocky Llegs smashed the A-Train in straight sets at the 1998 Adelaide tourney-->> Hewitt was 16-yrs at the time:p

Talking seriously for a moment~ Kuerten beating Federer at the 2004 FO was impressive:worship: ...No doubt Hewitt couldn`t have done that;)

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 02:51 AM
Both are great :)

Hard to decide who is better







Just my opinion, Vilas ~ Hewitt + Guga

GlennMirnyi
10-06-2006, 02:53 AM
Both are great :)

Hard to decide who is better







Just my opinion, Vilas ~ Hewitt + Guga


Too much :bs:

Vilas was never #1.

GlennMirnyi
10-06-2006, 02:55 AM
:wavey:
When people use this "not enough TMS titles" argument against Hewitt I feel it`s unfair:sad: ...
Which is more important a Slam or TMS:confused:
Which is more important a TMC or a TMS:confused:
Which is more important a Davis Cup or a TMS:confused:
Which is more important holding down #1 for over 1.5 years successively or a TMS:confused:

1. Hewitt has won 2-Slams, 2-Finals, 4-SF, 6-QF:worship:
2. Hewitt has 2-TMC & another Final:p
3. Hewitt has 2-Davis Cups & another 2-Finals:cool:
4. Hewitt was back-to-back YE #1 from 2001-2002;)

So what if he only has 2-TMS titles...It`s pretty darn obvious that Hewitt isn`t that interested in TMS titles*; 2006 he skipped MC, Rome, Hamburg, Cincinatti (probably Madrid & Paris too), 2005 he skipped MC, Rome, Hamburg, Madrid & Paris...:p ~as he`s said many times his priority is doing well in the Slams & Davis Cup...

PS. Hewitt has also reached another 5-TMS finals & had some tough draws~~ a la vs Federerer at 05 Indian Wells final, vs Safin at 02 Paris...

PS2. Kafelnekov never won a TMS crown;) ~but he won 2-Slams, Olympic Gold & Davis Cup:worship:

PS3. The whole Super-9/TMS/AMS system looks likely to be overhauled by the ATP in the next couple of years & prior to 1990 it didn`t even exist:p ~no history = minimal prestige:devil:

Yeah... nobody cares for TMS. Hewitt would probably trade all those SF and QF of GS (that are worth nothing) for 1 or 2 TMS titles.

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 02:56 AM
Too much :bs:

Vilas was never #1.



Because of Black-box operation of American-dominated ATP. :mad:

GlennMirnyi
10-06-2006, 03:02 AM
Because of Black-box operation of American-dominated ATP. :mad:

Yeah, sure. :rolleyes:

hammett
10-06-2006, 03:15 AM
Vilas > C'mon or Guga :cool:

62 > 25 + 20 :cool: (but hard to compare Vilas times with todays, anyway 62 is a great mark, one of the all time best)

:wavey:

GlennMirnyi
10-06-2006, 03:19 AM
62 > 25 + 20 :cool: (but hard to compare Vilas times with todays, anyway 62 is a great mark, one of the all time best)

:wavey:

Yeah... following your logic, a player with 15 IS is better than a player with 1 GS. Great thinking big boy.

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 03:27 AM
62 > 25 + 20 :cool: (but hard to compare Vilas times with todays, anyway 62 is a great mark, one of the all time best)

:wavey:

62 titles (the 5th most in Open Era)

16 titles in 1977 (most in Open Era)

4 Grand Slam (Roland Garros 77, US Open 77, Australian Open 78, Australian Open 79)

128-14 (most win in one year)

46 winning streak (longest winning streak in Open Era)

53 winning streak on clay (2nd longest winning streak on clay in Open Era)

His 1977 achievement was wonderful and no argument for NO.1, but ATP :mad:

Corey Feldman
10-06-2006, 03:37 AM
Yeah... following your logic, a player with 15 IS is better than a player with 1 GS. Great thinking big boy.LOL :lol:

hammett
10-06-2006, 04:33 AM
62 titles (the 5th most in Open Era)

16 titles in 1977 (most in Open Era)

4 Grand Slam (Roland Garros 77, US Open 77, Australian Open 78, Australian Open 79)

128-14 (most win in one year)

46 winning streak (longest winning streak in Open Era)

53 winning streak on clay (2nd longest winning streak on clay in Open Era)

His 1977 achievement was wonderful and no argument for NO.1, but ATP :mad:

:cool: Dont forget Masters 74', on grass, beating Borg and Nastase in the process. :cool:

http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?query=Singles&year=1974&player=V028&selTournament=0&prevtrnnum=0

And also 42 other finals making a total of 104 finals :eek: + a lot of semifinals too. That in an era with great players (Borg, Connors, Nastase, Mcenroe, etc) :eek: :worship:

:wavey:

Hendu
10-06-2006, 05:13 AM
:cool: Dont forget Masters 74', on grass, beating Borg and Nastase in the process. :cool:

http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?query=Singles&year=1974&player=V028&selTournament=0&prevtrnnum=0

And also 42 other finals making a total of 104 finals :eek: + a lot of semifinals too. That in an era with great players (Borg, Connors, Nastase, Mcenroe, etc) :eek: :worship:

:wavey:

The best player ever to come out from this part of the world... :worship:

About Kuerten and Hewitt, they are VERY different players in style but very close in achievements. For having one more Grand Slam, a much more beautiful game and for being more charismatic, I would say Guga will have a bigger place in history.

I wish he would come back strong to the ATP Tour. It would be much more fun.

Monteque
10-06-2006, 06:38 AM
:cool: Dont forget Masters 74', on grass, beating Borg and Nastase in the process. :cool:

http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?query=Singles&year=1974&player=V028&selTournament=0&prevtrnnum=0

And also 42 other finals making a total of 104 finals :eek: + a lot of semifinals too. That in an era with great players (Borg, Connors, Nastase, Mcenroe, etc) :eek: :worship:

:wavey:

:rolleyes: Masters 74', who cares about it............
If you do the talk about that era, there are only Borg, Connors, and McEnroe.

Vilas < Hewitt or Guga

On the other side, for now maybe Guga has more superior side than Hewitt a bit because his GS titles is better, but i dont see a reason why Hewitt cant adding his rack with another title. He's still young, at least 5 years more til his retire.

CmonAussie
10-06-2006, 06:57 AM
:rolleyes: Masters 74', who cares about it............
If you do the talk about that era, there are only Borg, Connors, and McEnroe.

Vilas < Hewitt or Guga

On the other side, for now maybe Guga has more superior side than Hewitt a bit because his GS titles is better, but i dont see a reason why Hewitt cant adding his rack with another title. He's still young, at least 5 years more til his retire.

:wavey: :cool:
Exactly this debate is happening prematurely~ Hewitt is still young enough to win Slams & when he wins that elusive AO title he`ll have 3/4 career Slam--->> then it will absolutely be case closed;) :angel:

Boris Franz Ecker
10-06-2006, 08:25 AM
Just my opinion, Vilas ~ Hewitt + Guga

No way. Vilas is much overrated.
We've learned that from the other thread.

Boris Franz Ecker
10-06-2006, 08:28 AM
:rolleyes: Masters 74', who cares about it............


Very probably Vilas' second biggest title.
At least no 3 since Australian Open was a joke in the 70ies

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 09:24 AM
Very probably Vilas' second biggest title.
At least no 3 since Australian Open was a joke in the 70ies

German : Vilas is overrated!

I think Argentine will say that Becker is overrated! :devil:

its.like.that
10-06-2006, 09:55 AM
Both are fantastic players in their own rights and no need to compare these two really great players.

Clara Bow
10-06-2006, 09:58 AM
I can't decide, frankly.

I think that Guga had the better strokes and game- and frankly should have applied himself more on other surfaces. He could win on hard- for example, but didn't apply himself. And his attitude towards Wimbles was not the greatest by far. But still- his raw ability, and his game were wonderful. I wonder if Guga came onto the tour now if his attitude would be different.

Hewitt won fewer GSs, and still never really did much on clay (although the semis at the FO are admirable) but I loved the fact that when he was in his prime, even though he may not have had the best strokes- he was such a fighter. And man- at his prime- what a scrambler!

Side note: I don't always think talent trumps fight. Fight and determination can be great wonderful things in sport- and I will never, ever begrudge an athlete who has a huge will for fighting and beating a player or team on paper who - based on talent "should have won." (Otherwise, how would we get the wonderful stories such as George Mason University beating Conniecticut during the NCAAs.) I have an appreciation for over achievers in all aspects of life- and that goes through to tennis. If tennnis were just a matter of stroke a is better than opponents stroke a- then all matches could be decided on paper. And that would be boring and take out the human element of sport that can make it so intriguing.

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 10:02 AM
Hewitt and Guga is not competitor of each other.

Hewitt 3-1 Guga (http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Kuerten%2C+Gustavo&player2=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&playernum2=H432)

Hewitt is strong in fast surface, Guga is strong in slow surface.

Boris Franz Ecker
10-06-2006, 11:30 AM
German : Vilas is overrated!

I think Argentine will say that Becker is overrated! :devil:

Argentina's best player's idol is Becker. He is right.
Everyone in Argentina should know that Vilas was a multiple pseudo-slam winner, much overrated.

TennisGrandSlam
10-06-2006, 11:34 AM
Argentina's best player's idol is Becker. He is right.
Everyone in Argentina should know that Vilas was a multiple pseudo-slam winner, much overrated.


I don't think Vilas is overrated, :rolleyes:

CmonAussie
10-06-2006, 12:06 PM
Very probably Vilas' second biggest title.
At least no 3 since Australian Open was a joke in the 70ies
:wavey: :devil:
Hey Mr.Franz:rolleyes: ...#I see you continue with this lame argument that an AO title in the 1970s didn`t rate:confused:

However you think that Vilas`s 1974 Masters title was his 2nd or 3rd biggest:confused:

..........>>>> I don`t suppose you realise that the 1974 Masters was played on grass at Kooyong, Melbourne~~the very same venue of the AO at the time:p
Coincidenly the AO was won buy Jimmy Connors that year & Borg also came & competed but got bundled in the 3rd round. Wonder why they made the trip if they thought it was useless:eek:

Dancing Hero
10-06-2006, 02:40 PM
I just give the edge to Hewitt. Not much between them really. I would rather have a Wimbledon and US Open than 3 Roland Garros though personally. Both won the Masters so in tennis history they'll be remembered as good players, if overshadowed by the likes of Federer, Sampras, Agassi.

thrust
10-06-2006, 02:43 PM
Hewitt, though not by much.

sawan66278
10-06-2006, 03:01 PM
Here's a twist: Guga or Rafter?

Again, I go with Guga!!!

Boris Franz Ecker
10-06-2006, 03:01 PM
:wavey: :devil:
Hey Mr.Franz:rolleyes: ...#I see you continue with this lame argument that an AO title in the 1970s didn`t rate:confused:

However you think that Vilas`s 1974 Masters title was his 2nd or 3rd biggest:confused:

..........>>>> I don`t suppose you realise that the 1974 Masters was played on grass at Kooyong, Melbourne~~the very same venue of the AO at the time:p
Coincidenly the AO was won buy Jimmy Connors that year & Borg also came & competed but got bundled in the 3rd round. Wonder why they made the trip if they thought it was useless:eek:

Sorry, it's undisputable that AO was only a pseudo slam without a big meaning.
Ok, Connors played there twice, Borg once as 17 year old. What does that show?
Most years they didn't play.


And surprise: Vilas played there only 5 times in his whole career.
He surely had other priorities.

GlennMirnyi
10-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Hewitt's not gettin' any more GS. That's a fact.

Hagar
10-06-2006, 06:10 PM
Very close call. I'd say Hewitt because of his slam record. Guga is definitely more than a good claycourter but in the slams that were not on clay, he did not really have good results.

Damn, reading and writing about Guga always makes me melancholic. Such a good player. Bring 'em back healthy and he is top 10 in no time.

Socket
10-06-2006, 07:10 PM
You can really only judge players on what they have accomplished, not what they could do have if they hadn't been injured or played in another era or with a wooden racquet, etc. Many of the older players, like McEnroe, with a gazillion wins, routinely played 16-draw tournaments, but we don't put asterisks by those victories just because they only went four rounds.

So, I think Lleyton edges Guga out because of his longer stay at No. 1 and because his slams wins were on different surfaces. (The same two reasons that I think Lleyton ranks higher on the Aussie scale than Pat Rafter, even though Pat accomplished the very rare feat of defending a slam.)

(It's really too bad that Guga did get injured because a RG match between him and Nadal would have been something to see.)

MisterQ
10-06-2006, 07:23 PM
(It's really too bad that Guga did get injured because a RG match between him and Nadal would have been something to see.)

So true, it's a shame they have never played. :sad:

Sjengster
10-06-2006, 08:34 PM
Here's a twist: Guga or Rafter?

Again, I go with Guga!!!

That's not nearly as much of a tough call.

TennisGrandSlam
10-07-2006, 01:41 AM
Hewitt's not gettin' any more GS. That's a fact.


http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=87323&page=3


You underrate Vilas and think Connors had no problem about year-end NO.1 in 1977.

But, ......

Vilas had more slam than Connors in 1977 :rolleyes:

GlennMirnyi
10-07-2006, 03:34 AM
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=87323&page=3


You underrate Vilas and think Connors had no problem about year-end NO.1 in 1977.

But, ......

Vilas had more slam than Connors in 1977 :rolleyes:

I don't underrate Vilas. You overrate him. Connors was intelligent and used the ranking to be the #1. That's it, stop whining.

sawan66278
10-07-2006, 05:01 AM
I don't think Hewitt will win another slam either...what do you think if Guga gets a few matches under his belt, plays Rafa at the French? I actually think he would have a great shot to beat him...look at what he did to Roger in 2004...without much match play or health...

But like I said, Guga ranks ahead of Rafter...

Its funny, a few years ago, my brother and I were debating whether Guga was a Hall of Famer. But after Yannick Noah got in, there's not even a question...

Corey Feldman
10-07-2006, 05:29 AM
I don't think Hewitt will win another slam either...what do you think if Guga gets a few matches under his belt, plays Rafa at the French? I actually think he would have a great shot to beat him...look at what he did to Roger in 2004...without much match play or health...roger had worse ass kickings at RG than guga gave him....... Arazi in 02 and Horna in 03 spring to mind, both in 1R.

Lee
10-07-2006, 05:35 AM
roger had worse ass kickings at RG than guga gave him....... Arazi in 02 and Horna in 03 spring to mind, both in 1R.

But those losts are before his "Slam winning" day. ;)

World Beater
10-07-2006, 08:24 AM
But those losts are before his "Slam winning" day. ;)

while i agree with you...his clay court form still lagged the rest of the other surfaces, he won at wimby and played well on hc, but everyone knew that roger had piss poor results at rg the two years before ...this should be taken into account as well...its interesting to note that federer bagelled kuerten in hamburg on clay as well. Of course not many people remember that match:) its only the defeats that people seem to remember because they are so few and far between these days

Lleytonisthebest
10-07-2006, 09:26 AM
dont forget aswell that hewitt was the youngest year end n°1 ever! at 20years he was a better player than guga at that age

Monteque
10-07-2006, 10:10 AM
[url]


You underrate Vilas and think Connors had no problem about year-end NO.1 in 1977.

But, ......

Vilas had more slam than Connors in 1977 :rolleyes:

You simply have tenuous fact on you.
Connors reached final in Wimbly and USO that year although Vilas beat him at USO. But 160 consecutive weeks at no.1 didnt mean anything for you???
Stop comparing Vilas with Connors because Con-man is twice better than Vilas as looking their Grand slams titles (4 to 8).

Again, tell me, who's this guy like John Sadri, John Marks, or Brian Gottfried, whom Vilas hammered in 3 out of 4 his final. The other 4, when he met Tanner, Wilander, and Borg (2x), they gave lesion to him:rolleyes:

On the contrary, Connors beat players like Borg(2x), Rosewall(2x), Lendl(2x), and McEnroe(1x) in the finals.

So if your basis is only 1977, it's really unfair because Connors facing harder enemies on his each final GS.

TennisGrandSlam
10-07-2006, 10:13 AM
You simply have tenuous fact on you.
Connors reached final in Wimbly and USO that year although Vilas beat him at USO. But 160 consecutive weeks at no.1 didnt mean anything for you???
Stop comparing Vilas with Connors because Con-man is twice better than Vilas as looking their Grand slams titles (4 to 8).

Again, tell me, who's this guy like John Sadri, John Marks, or Brian Gottfried, whom Vilas hammered in 3 out of 4 his final. The other 4, when he met Tanner, Wilander, and Borg (2x), they gave lesion to him:rolleyes:

On the contrary, Connors beat players like Borg(2x), Rosewall(2x), Lendl(2x), and McEnroe(1x) in the finals.

So if your basis is only 1977, it's really unfair because Connors facing harder enemies on his each final GS.


We just only talking about 1977! :rolleyes:

Monteque
10-07-2006, 10:16 AM
We just only talking about 1977! :rolleyes:

So dont.....;)

Dancing Hero
10-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Hee hee, Tennis Grand Slam is STILL going on about Vilas 77!

(Laughing)


:D :devil: :cool: :wavey: ;) :p

sawan66278
10-07-2006, 07:58 PM
Guga doing to Roger what he did at RG was incredible...regardless of his record...to whip him in straight sets...when was the last time he even lost in straight sets? Guga, for whatever reason...health...apathy, etc., never reached his full potential...and still, he, not Vilas, is the ONLY South American player to end the year ranked #1!!:devil:

Merton
10-07-2006, 08:05 PM
I would say Hewitt, but it is a close call.

Merton
10-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Guga doing to Roger what he did at RG was incredible...regardless of his record...to whip him in straight sets...when was the last time he even lost in straight sets? Guga, for whatever reason...health...apathy, etc., never reached his full potential...and still, he, not Vilas, is the ONLY South American player to end the year ranked #1!!:devil:

What Guga did to Roger was by no means a surprise.

World Beater
10-07-2006, 08:13 PM
What Guga did to Roger was by no means a surprise.

yes i dont understand it either...

the guy did beat sampras and agassi indoors...why cant he beat federer on clay in 2004?

Lee
10-08-2006, 03:38 AM
yes i dont understand it either...

the guy did beat sampras and agassi indoors...why cant he beat federer on clay in 2004?

Because in 2000, Guga's hip was still working fine. In 2004, even he had a hip surgery, his hip was actually still bothering him. His movement was not as good as he was in 2000.

Sjengster
10-08-2006, 03:46 AM
I don't think he'd played since retiring against Gaudio in Barcelona, then he very nearly lost in the opening round to Almagro who I think served for the match in the fifth set. I seem to recall him saying sometime after the defeat of Federer that if he'd had to play a fourth set he would probably have had to retire; that didn't make me feel any better.....

World Beater
10-08-2006, 03:46 AM
Because in 2000, Guga's hip was still working fine. In 2004, even he had a hip surgery, his hip was actually still bothering him. His movement was not as good as he was in 2000.

yes, but i think it was more than that...didnt guga go onto have a good french open? lost to nalbandian in a match he had chances to win. i think he beat a number of good opponents during that RG. he certainly played like nothing was bothering him against federer. Anyways, hopefully he can rediscover some of that form soon.

sawan66278
10-08-2006, 03:50 AM
I know this is pure speculation, but where do you think Guga would be ranked right now if he had not had the injuries...I think he would be either #2 or #3 in the world...who knows, challenging for the top spot:devil:

Lee
10-08-2006, 05:44 AM
yes, but i think it was more than that...didnt guga go onto have a good french open? lost to nalbandian in a match he had chances to win. i think he beat a number of good opponents during that RG. he certainly played like nothing was bothering him against federer. Anyways, hopefully he can rediscover some of that form soon.

Not exactly.

His best Grand Slam result since his initial surgery came last spring when the charismatic Kuerten beat top-ranked Roger Federer en route to the Roland Garros quarterfinals where he suffered a
2-6, 6-3, 4-6, 6-7(6) setback to David Nalbandian. In the aftermath of that match, Kuerten conceded he was not 100 percent healthy.


When he said he was not 100% healthy, he more referred to his health after the first surgery.

yomike
10-08-2006, 06:38 AM
Gustavo Kuerten --> very likeable personality
Lleyton Hewitt ---> the worst scum in ATP history

Boris Franz Ecker
10-08-2006, 09:03 AM
I know this is pure speculation, but where do you think Guga would be ranked right now if he had not had the injuries...I think he would be either #2 or #3 in the world...who knows, challenging for the top spot:devil:

He would have no chance to be #1 or #2.

InfoKenway
04-05-2014, 09:41 PM
Pretty tough one.