Davis Cup: Germany v Croatia. What surface should they choose? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Davis Cup: Germany v Croatia. What surface should they choose?

Jimnik
10-03-2006, 11:56 PM
I've been debating this in the Davis Cup forum.

Most have suggested that the tie should be played on clay. To me this sounds ludicrous - at least from the German point of view. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that Ancic is a good (in fact one of the best) clay players around? Just because he's won titles on grass and collected his best results at Wimbledon, people assume that he's a clay clown.

Haas' results on clay have been awful over the last few years and Kiefer has always been weak on clay. Ljubicic would probably also beat Haas and Kiefer on a clay court and Croatia would win 5-0.

Even grass would be better than clay for Germany because they'd stand a better chance of winning the two singles rubbers against Ljubicic. Although Ancic would almost certainly win his two singles rubbers. On carpet, Ancic might lose but Ljubicic would win.

To me, the decision is obvious. From Germany's point of view, why would they want to play on anything other than a fast (US Open style) hard court? Haas, Kiefer and Becker all feel most comfortable on this surface whereas Ancic and Ljubicic have recently struggled.

What do you think?

revolution
10-03-2006, 11:59 PM
I've been debating this in the Davis Cup forum.

Most have suggested that the tie should be played on clay. To me this sounds ludicrous - at least from the German point of view. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that Ancic is a good (in fact one of the best) clay players around? Just because he's won titles on grass and collected his best results at Wimbledon, people assume that he's a clay clown.

Haas' results on clay have been awful over the last few years and Kiefer has always been weak on clay. Ljubicic would probably also beat Haas and Kiefer on a clay court and Croatia would win 5-0.

Even grass would be better than clay for Germany because they'd stand a better chance of winning the two singles rubbers against Ljubicic. Although Ancic would almost certainly win his two singles rubbers. On carpet, Ancic might lose but Ljubicic would win.

To me, the decision is obvious. From Germany's point of view, why would they want to play on anything other than a fast (US Open style) hard court? Haas, Kiefer and Becker all feel most comfortable on this surface whereas Ancic and Ljubicic have recently struggled.

What do you think?

There were signs at Wimbledon that Ljubicic and grass were starting to click. I doubt Kiefer unless fully fit or Haas who ain't had the best of times at Wimbledon could down him.

Fast hard court would be a good choice too.

I hope Sky screen this tie live, or Swiss-Spain.

Deboogle!.
10-03-2006, 11:59 PM
Rebound Ace, or maybe a faster hardcourt IMO

this is one of those tough ties where no surface really suits Germany that much better than Croatia.

RickDaStick
10-04-2006, 12:01 AM
Rebound Ace, or maybe a faster hardcourt IMO

this is one of those tough ties where no surface really suits Germany that much better than Croatia.

faster hardcourt and the serves of Ancic and Ljubicic:eek:

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 12:03 AM
faster hardcourt and the serves of Ancic and Ljubicic:eek:
It's not all about the serves.

Deboogle!.
10-04-2006, 12:09 AM
Well I think Haas and Kiefer have done the best at the AO compared to the Croatians... that's why I said Rebound Ace.

Lee
10-04-2006, 12:21 AM
I think the Germans will pick clay. That's the weakest service for Croatia #1 player Ljubicic and although Ancic's clay court results looked impressive this season, the only good quality clay court player he defeated is Robredo in a 5 setter this year RG.

And I still think on average, Germany is better on clay than Croatia.

RickDaStick
10-04-2006, 12:23 AM
It's not all about the serves.

In men's tennis its most if it

ASP0315
10-04-2006, 12:29 AM
They will probably choose the Slowest type of clay which is red clay.(not the french open type or rome type.). It is impossible to beat Ancic or Ljubicic on hard court or carpet court.(regardless it is rebound ace or premier.).


To me, the decision is obvious. From Germany's point of view, why would they want to play on anything other than a fast (US Open style) hard court? Haas, Kiefer and Becker all feel most comfortable on this surface whereas Ancic and Ljubicic have recently struggled.

What do you think?

You forgot Mayer. He is a real force on clay.Kiefer plays well on clay too. I don't Becker and Haas will be choosen for the tie. Haas may be choosen but becker is highly unlikely to be choosen.(he is talented but he still has to prove in international level.) I think thier team will be Mayer,Kiefer,Waske,Kohlman.(haas as alternative.)

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 12:39 AM
I think the Germans will pick clay. That's the weakest service for Croatia #1 player Ljubicic and although Ancic's clay court results looked impressive this season, the only good quality clay court player he defeated is Robredo in a 5 setter this year RG.

And I still think on average, Germany is better on clay than Croatia.
What about Davydenko? What about Horna, Ramirez-Hidalgo and Garcia-Lopez? Consider that, in the limited number of clay tournaments he has played, he has collected 600 ranking points.

Anyway it's not just about the results. LOOK AT HIS GAME. Have you seen Ancic play on clay? If you have then you would see that he's very comfortable on the surface.

When the ball bounces up high into his hitting zone, he can strike the ball beautifully off both wings. If you watch his eyes, you can see how focused he is every time he hits the ball and, hence, he can cope with dodgy clay bounces better than most players. He is a smart player who knows how to construct points on a clay court and when to approach the net to use his excellent volleying ability to finish off many points. For a tall guy, he also moves and defends exceptionally well on a clay court.

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 12:41 AM
In men's tennis its most if it
Big servers can do well on clay. It's possible, you know, for grass players to perform better on clay than on hard courts. Sometimes big servers don't like playing on fast surfaces.

RickDaStick
10-04-2006, 12:42 AM
Big servers can do well on clay. It's possible, you know, for grass players to perform better on clay than on hard courts. Sometimes big servers don't like playing on fast surfaces.

Ok but Mario and Ivan do

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 12:43 AM
They will probably choose the Slowest type of clay which is red clay.(not the french open type or rome type.). It is impossible to beat Ancic or Ljubicic on hard court or carpet court.(regardless it is rebound ace or premier.).

You forgot Mayer. He is a real force on clay.Kiefer plays well on clay too. I don't Becker and Haas will be choosen for the tie. Haas may be choosen but becker is highly unlikely to be choosen.(he is talented but he still has to prove in international level.) I think thier team will be Mayer,Kiefer,Waske,Kohlman.(haas as alternative.)
Mayer is good on clay but he's too inconsistent. Haas has always been very good when playing on a fast hard court. Even if Kiefer doesn't play, Becker is a very good alternative. Germany has more options on hard than on clay.

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 12:46 AM
Ok but Mario and Ivan do
Then why has Mario had better results on clay than on carpet courts? His best results in the Masters Series have come in Miami, Rome and Hamburg. His best results at Grand Slams have been at Roland Garros and Wimbledon. He has performed better on slow hard courts than on fast hard courts (compare his AO with his USO results).

And why has Ivan always performed better at Roland Garros than at Wimbledon?

Nando_L
10-04-2006, 12:57 AM
Rebound Ace

El Legenda
10-04-2006, 01:02 AM
Whatever they pick they will be a long shot to win

even clay...Ljubicic is only 1 of 5 i think..all time to make it to QF or better on all 3 AMS clay events and the French.

Lee
10-04-2006, 01:05 AM
What about Davydenko? What about Horna, Ramirez-Hidalgo and Garcia-Lopez? Consider that, in the limited number of clay tournaments he has played, he has collected 600 ranking points.

I won't say clay is the best surface for Davydenko. For Horna, have you checked his results on clay this year? After losing to Ancic in Rome, he lost to Mirnyi in Hamburg. He also lost 1st round in Bueno Aires, Costa do Sauipe, Houston and Monte Carlo. Yes, he won Acapulco but all his other loses are pretty bad. Ramirez-Hidalgo and Garcia-Lopez 93 and 105 at the time. Even Sampras could defeat clay court players at that level. :shrug:

Anyway it's not just about the results. LOOK AT HIS GAME. Have you seen Ancic play on clay? If you have then you would see that he's very comfortable on the surface.

If you look at Ginepri's game, other than he can't slide on clay, fits very well on clay. :tape:


I am not saying Ancic can't play on clay but in this case, he's not definitely better than Haas or Kiefer, IMO.

And I am done with this topic :wavey:

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 01:06 AM
Whatever they pick they will be a long shot to win

even clay...Ljubicic is only 1 of 5 i think..all time to make it to QF or better on all 3 AMS clay events and the French.

Come now Jerry, I could name 5 active players who've achieved that, let alone all time. :p

El Legenda
10-04-2006, 01:08 AM
Come now Jerry, I could name 5 active players who've achieved that, let alone all time. :p

i said i think :) and i think its active not all time :)
maybe you should do some work and find out :)

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 01:13 AM
Federer, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Moya, Coria, Robredo, Gonzalez, Ferrer, Guga of course.... not Nadal or Gaudio, who have never done much at Hamburg or Rome respectively. Mind you, it is worth pointing out that all of them have a better groundstroke game than Ljubicic so his efforts should certainly be hailed.

Checho
10-04-2006, 01:25 AM
I've been debating this in the Davis Cup forum.

Most have suggested that the tie should be played on clay. To me this sounds ludicrous - at least from the German point of view. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that Ancic is a good (in fact one of the best) clay players around? Just because he's won titles on grass and collected his best results at Wimbledon, people assume that he's a clay clown.

Haas' results on clay have been awful over the last few years and Kiefer has always been weak on clay. Ljubicic would probably also beat Haas and Kiefer on a clay court and Croatia would win 5-0.

Even grass would be better than clay for Germany because they'd stand a better chance of winning the two singles rubbers against Ljubicic. Although Ancic would almost certainly win his two singles rubbers. On carpet, Ancic might lose but Ljubicic would win.

To me, the decision is obvious. From Germany's point of view, why would they want to play on anything other than a fast (US Open style) hard court? Haas, Kiefer and Becker all feel most comfortable on this surface whereas Ancic and Ljubicic have recently struggled.

What do you think?



It seems that we have different points of view about what is to be a Top Player on clay.

I think the best 5 or 10 players on clay only can be called that way.

Now let see some players better than Ancic on clay.

Nadal
Federer
Nalbandian
Davydenko
Robredo
Gaudio
Ferrero
Moyá
González
Ferrer
Gasquét
Safin
Acasuso
Stepanek
Verdasco
Calleri
Chela
Grosjean
Volandri
Almagro
Massú
Andreev


There are more than 20 players better than him !!!!

He can adapt well to the surface, but there is no way of which he could be taken as one of the best players on Clay.

RickDaStick
10-04-2006, 01:27 AM
Ancic is solid on clay but i have no idea why jimnik thinks Ancic is the next Nadal on dirt.

Sjengster
10-04-2006, 01:54 AM
He's got the ability to play well on every surface, as shown by the fact that he was the third man after Federer and Nadal to make RG and Wimbledon QFs this year, but the thing that most stood out regarding his 2006 clay results was the way he won his matches, returning from a back injury as well.

Rome: def. Serra 3-6, 7-6 (10), 6-0 (saving several matchpoints)
def. Ramirez-Hidalgo 6-3, 6-7, 7-5 (from 1-5 down in the final set)

Hamburg: def. Garcia-Lopez 3-6, 6-4, 6-3 (from 1-3 down in the second)
def. Blake 4-6, 7-5, 7-6 (from 3-5 down in second and third sets)
def. Davydenko 5-7, 7-6, 6-3 (from 1-4 down in the second)

RG: def. Robredo 6-4, 4-6, 2-6, 6-4, 7-5 (having failed to serve out the match, broke to win it after around four hours of play, having suffered cramps and vomited as well).

One could argue that having to scrape through so many times shows a lack of claycourt class, but one can't dispute the fact that he has become a great fighter and someone who can stay the distance physically, hopefully this hasn't been lost during that injury break. He had another slew of close matches in Rosmalen when defending the title and then came back from two sets to one down in the 4th round at Wimbledon to beat Djokovic 6-4, 4-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-3.

Action Jackson
10-04-2006, 04:24 AM
The Germans as a team aren't better than the Croats on any surface.

NATAS81
10-04-2006, 05:08 AM
Definitely clay.

DrJules
10-04-2006, 06:48 AM
Clay - gives them their best chance.

Neverstopfightin
10-04-2006, 07:24 AM
Slow hard

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 07:24 AM
I won't say clay is the best surface for Davydenko. For Horna, have you checked his results on clay this year? After losing to Ancic in Rome, he lost to Mirnyi in Hamburg. He also lost 1st round in Bueno Aires, Costa do Sauipe, Houston and Monte Carlo. Yes, he won Acapulco but all his other loses are pretty bad. Ramirez-Hidalgo and Garcia-Lopez 93 and 105 at the time. Even Sampras could defeat clay court players at that level. :shrug:

If you look at Ginepri's game, other than he can't slide on clay, fits very well on clay. :tape:

I am not saying Ancic can't play on clay but in this case, he's not definitely better than Haas or Kiefer, IMO.

And I am done with this topic :wavey:
Rubbish. You're comparng Ancic to Sampras? Yes, when you win 14 grand slams, you're likely to beat most players on any surface.

Ginepri didn't grow up on clay like Ancic did. There is no way that you can compare Ginepri, Haas or Kiefer - compared to Ancic, they are clay clowns.

You obviously haven't watched much clay tennis.

Jimnik
10-04-2006, 07:25 AM
It seems that we have different points of view about what is to be a Top Player on clay.

I think the best 5 or 10 players on clay only can be called that way.

Now let see some players better than Ancic on clay.

Nadal
Federer
Nalbandian
Davydenko
Robredo
Gaudio
Ferrero
Moyá
González
Ferrer
Gasquét
Safin
Acasuso
Stepanek
Verdasco
Calleri
Chela
Grosjean
Volandri
Almagro
Massú
Andreev


There are more than 20 players better than him !!!!

He can adapt well to the surface, but there is no way of which he could be taken as one of the best players on Clay.
Listing loads of clay experts doesn't proove anything. At least half of those players would lose to Ancic on clay, at the moment.

JMG
10-04-2006, 09:22 AM
Kas/Petzschner indoors, that would be fun. :bowdown: I don't think Ancic/Ljubicic would be the big favourite in doubles against them.

IMO Mayer and Kohlschreiber don't have the personality to win a real Daviscup match. So maybe we should still choose a faster surface than clay and play with Becker. At least he can reach some tiebreaks when he's in form.

At the moment, I only see Haas and Waske in the team, cause the captain likes them. In his opinion, Haas is the clear number one and Waske is the clear number one in doubles. It would be a surprise to see Kiefer in the team. :sad:

Deathless Mortal
10-04-2006, 10:07 AM
Well, you shouldn't think that Ljubo and Mario don't know how to play on clay. Croatia was the only country in Roland Garros with 2 players in the quarters. Ljubo was playing in semis. For grass, Ljubo is not good in Wimbledon, but he can play on grass, for Mario, we all know, he's the best after Roger. So, grass is not good for Kiefer and Haas, and company... And HC... Mario&Ljubo are the best in doubles on it. And each of them can win just once in singles, and that's 3 wins. Yeah, I think that Germans are in trouble. Croatia RULZ!!

Lee
10-04-2006, 04:49 PM
You obviously haven't watched much clay tennis.

:lol: Guga is my favourite player.

GlennMirnyi
10-04-2006, 06:01 PM
Asphalt, and call Schumacher.

GlennMirnyi
10-04-2006, 06:12 PM
Talking seriously, Germany has no team to beat Croatia.
On clay it would be a beatdown. Ljubicic made SFs in RG and Ancic has shown incredible form in the clay MS. Add to the equation that clay is the worse surface for the germans and a beatdown would be the result.
Haas can handle himself on HC, and there's where they should play. Probably Rebound Ace. Even there Croatia is the favourite.

Neely
10-04-2006, 08:53 PM
For grass, Ljubo is not good in Wimbledon, but he can play on grass, for Mario, we all know, he's the best after Roger. So, grass is not good for Kiefer and Haas, and company...
If "Ljubicic is not good in Wimbledon" but still "can play on grass", I think Kiefer should be rated at least twice as good as Ljubicic on grass, applying this criterion :) And if Mayer is in good form, he already could make it two rounds further at Wimbledon than Ljubicic in his whole career. And the same is true for Kiefer who also has a Wimbledon QF, a title on grass and two more grasscourt finals from where Ivan was far away.

But this most likely is not relevant for this tie anyway because I doubt Kiefer will be in the team already and because playing on grass at this time usually is not going to be realized. Also everything outdoor is more than unlikely because it's deep winter in Germany and the last ones where quite hard and cold until March or early April, depending on the location.

So it will be anything indoor for 99% sure. But the bigger problem is that Croatia is just a better team who did so much more in the last few years whereas Germany struggles almost everytime in Davis Cup. So Croatia is a solid favourite going into this tie.

GlennMirnyi
10-04-2006, 09:25 PM
On grass nobody could beat Ancic.

JMG
10-04-2006, 10:06 PM
On grass nobody could beat Ancic.

Kiefer is the one who defeated Sampras and Federer on grass. Maybe the only player who did that. :devil:

Neely
10-04-2006, 10:23 PM
Kiefer is the one who defeated Sampras and Federer on grass. Maybe the only player who did that. :devil:
But I doubt that he would have beaten them playing in Davis Cup :tape: :o

canbera
10-05-2006, 02:17 PM
At the moment, I only see Haas and Waske in the team, cause the captain likes them. In his opinion, Haas is the clear number one and Waske is the clear number one in doubles. It would be a surprise to see Kiefer in the team. :sad:

interesting point there.
I also think that Patrick Kuehnen prefers Haas over Kiefer as #1 player.

In my opinion they should either pick Grass or Rebound Ace.

Clay would for sure NOT be the best choice from the German point of view.

I mean, Tommy Has has shown that he's not bad on Clay at all ( Remember WTC 2005 for example or Roma 2002 ) but faster surfaces fit better to his game.
And they should not repeat what happened against Thailand.


Right now it looks pretty bad for Nicolas Kiefer.
He will lose his Finals points in St. Petersburg and Moscow, and in January, when he loses his AO Semi's points he will go down somewhere like #50 in the Rankings. Too bad for him.

Chances are good for Benjamin Becker to be in the team when they play on a Hard Court. Mayer, Kohlschreiber or Phau are too inconsistent or preferably play on Clay.

If Nicolas Kiefer is fully recovered and finds his form, I'd recommend to play on Grass.
The squad could look something like this then -

Haas/Kiefer/Waske/Kohlmann

If they have to play without Kiefer, it should be a Rebound Ace HC with the following team.

Haas/Becker/Waske/Mayer

Viken01
10-05-2006, 04:18 PM
clay I guess

Jimnik
01-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Well, they've chosen Rebound Ace. I still think they should have picked the US Open surface, Deco Turf, but at least they didn't choose clay.

Kiefer is probably out so that leaves Haas and probably Becker to play the singles. Unless Ancic or Ljubicic are injured, this should be a straight forward Croatian win.

Björki
01-09-2007, 03:34 PM
Kiefer is probably out of DC :(

ljubicic_
01-09-2007, 03:40 PM
Croatia won't win with 5-0. Ljubicic and Ancic will win the first matches in the singles and then they will beat the Germans in the doubles(3-0). And the last two matches will play Ivo Karlovic and Marin Cilic, those 2 are going to lose.

jazar
01-09-2007, 04:02 PM
rebound ace is a good choice, hard but not too fast

Apemant
01-09-2007, 04:23 PM
Kiefer is the one who defeated Sampras and Federer on grass. Maybe the only player who did that. :devil:

Hewitt beat Sampras twice on grass, and Federer once.

RickDaStick
01-09-2007, 04:24 PM
0 % chance for the Germans.

GlennMirnyi
01-09-2007, 05:23 PM
Kiefer is the one who defeated Sampras and Federer on grass. Maybe the only player who did that. :devil:

Big deal that he defeated Sampras, Bastl did as well.

RickDaStick
01-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Alex Corretja defeated Pete on Grass.

Peoples
01-09-2007, 06:39 PM
Greenset

El Legenda
01-09-2007, 07:23 PM
quicksand

shotgun
01-09-2007, 07:47 PM
Kiefer is probably out so that leaves Haas and probably Becker to play the singles.

Could be Mayer or Kohlschreiber too. I guess the Australian Open will give out the answer.

Jimnik
01-09-2007, 08:51 PM
Could be Mayer or Kohlschreiber too. I guess the Australian Open will give out the answer.
I doubt it. Mayer is good on clay and grass but he sucks on hard courts. Becker is by far the better hard court player, out of those three.

JMG
01-09-2007, 09:04 PM
I doubt it. Mayer is good on clay and grass but he sucks on hard courts. Becker is by far the better hard court player, out of those three.

Kohlschreiber is by far the better tennis player than Becker imo.

I think it's between those two, Mayer shouldn't have a chance.

Homo_Esperanto
01-09-2007, 09:34 PM
I doubt it. Mayer is good on clay and grass but he sucks on hard courts. Becker is by far the better hard court player, out of those three.

Yeah you are right man, but Becker unfortunately have had a bad start into 2007 with straight losses to Guccione and Clement.

And even with yesterday`s win against Volandri he was struggling with his game, expecially with his first serve, which was just in 46 %.

Though his first serve is huge when coming this figure is much too bad and really not good enough to beat the top guys.

But i guess regarding to his mental state and tremendous improvement over the last year Becker for sure would be the better choice compared to Kohlschreiber.

Mayer is just ridiculous these days with embarassing losses like 2:6; 1:6 against Gasquet oder 3:6; 2:6 against Ginepri. His game was just effective as long as no one didn`t know his game before as it is really unusual in style.

But after being on the professional tour for some years now most of the guys, at least the best, know his game very well, so that Mayer hasn`t any chance at all playing against them.

Best example for that: Some years ago Mayer was eliminating J.Johansson in Wimby; Last year he was spanked by Roddick. But not the fact, he was losing against him was that devastating -as you really can lose to top guys like that - but the way he played with no concept to change his game when things went a different way.

He really hasn`t any gameplan and thats crucial.

He is just a good average player maybe staying in the top100 who hasn`really improved his game in the last years which is really shocking to me.


So I guess Kühnen`s choice will be Becker - and not only because they are outta the same area of Germany :cool:

Jimnik
01-10-2007, 12:52 AM
Kohlschreiber is by far the better tennis player than Becker imo.

I think it's between those two, Mayer shouldn't have a chance.
What makes you think that? Because his groundstrokes are better? Becker's serve alone is enough to earn him a lot more easy service games than Kohlschreiber.

We'll have to see how the AO goes but I'm very confident that Becker will be ranked higher than Kohlschreiber in February. He has almost no points to defend - even his first round win in Sydney is enough to move him up.

If Becker wins a couple more matches in Australia, he'll be ranked inside the top 50.

BORO77
01-10-2007, 04:14 PM
Does it matter what they choose?
The germans will loose, the only thing that can save them is
if Ljubo or Mario gets injured:confused:
Croatians are far better and they love the DC, I expect the crowd to be 50-50
at least:worship:
Haas is a great player imo but he isnt in very good form lately.
Kiefer wont play, no2 will probably be Kohlschreiber.
Croatia will get 3 pts one way or the other.
Ljubo probably 2 pts, Mario at least 1 and the doubles probably also for cro.
I would love to see Waske lose the doubles i hate him:)

Blue Heart24
01-10-2007, 06:10 PM
clay or grass.Haas can beat both Ljubicic and Ancic on clay.Waske/Kohlman can win in doubles.that's enough..but its over now...No way we can lose this one,now.

BORO77
01-10-2007, 06:13 PM
Haas to beat Mario on clay??? He hardly beat this guy from Thailand.
Haas cant beat any seriious player on clay nowadays

GlennMirnyi
01-10-2007, 08:10 PM
Haas to beat Mario on clay??? He hardly beat this guy from Thailand.
Haas cant beat any seriious player on clay nowadays

I agree. Clay would be suicide.

RickDaStick
01-10-2007, 08:32 PM
The Austrians thought clay was a good idea vs ancic and ljubicic and they lost all 3 of the live matches and melzer/koubek are just as good on clay as whoever the germans would play.

GlennMirnyi
01-10-2007, 08:46 PM
The Austrians thought clay was a good idea vs ancic and ljubicic and they lost all 3 of the live matches and melzer/koubek are just as good on clay as whoever the germans would play.

Not exactly a good idea, it was the lesser of many evils.