Worthless: Russian DC win doesnt mean much as Safin and Tursunov dont live there :o [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Worthless: Russian DC win doesnt mean much as Safin and Tursunov dont live there :o

TheBoiledEgg
09-27-2006, 02:44 PM
Am I the only one a little upset that Dmitry Tursunov socked it to the U.S. in Davis Cup when he's basically from California? I am all for "The Land of Opportunity," but it would be nice to see one of these players give back -- like Monica Seles or Martina Navratilova. Yes, I'm talking about Maria Sharapova, too. Good God, neither of them even have an accent.
-- Mike, San Diego

I wrote a piece (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/pr/subs2/siexclusive/2006/pr/subs/siexclusive/09/26/scorecard1002/) in this week's Sports Illustrated on this very topic. Tursunov is a fascinating case study. The guy is the Russian hero who conquers the U.S. in Davis Cup. He celebrates with his "countrymen" and then he returns to the place he's called home for the last half of his life: suburban Sacramento. Sharapova, Nicole Vaidisova, Tatiana Golovin ... legion are the players who compete under a different country code but are essentially naturalized Americans.

As I see it, citizenship is intensely personal. If Sharapova or Tursunov or whomever wants to emulate Seles and Navratilova and try to become an "American," great. It would end the chicken littles' lament that American tennis is on life support. If they want only to be residents and sustain their ties to Russian, that's fine too.

I do think that in this age of the-world-is-flat globalization, international competitions have lost a lot of their relevance. The whole of a "foreign athlete" -- whether it's Romanian gymnasts in Houston, the Brazilian soccer star in Madrid, a Chinese basketball star in Houston (or a German in Dallas or a Frenchman in San Antonio) or the bevy of tennis players in Monaco -- has never been murkier.

I would think it would be hard to get too excited about the Russians' triumph when two of the stars haven't lived in the country since they were boys. (Marat Safin, who left to train in Spain as a junior, now resides in Monte Carlo.) Likewise, why get so worked up about the dearth of Americans in tennis' upper reaches when half the top players are -- officially or not -- based here?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/09/27/mailbag/index.html

TheBoiledEgg
09-27-2006, 02:45 PM
talk about total rubbish :rolleyes:
he's got no idea what so ever, just like 99% of all yanks.

shotgun
09-27-2006, 02:54 PM
If the U.S. government hadn't make things so difficult for Dima to get his American citizenship back in the day, they wouldn't be whining right now. Now it's too late. :p

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 02:55 PM
He's got a point though.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 02:57 PM
Hahahaha, yes like the time the Swedes made the final 7 times in a row and the team lived in Monaco or London and none of them resided in Sweden. Yes, that made the achievement less notable.

Boohoo.

its.like.that
09-27-2006, 03:00 PM
does this mean that Monte Carlo should have its own Davis Cup team(s) made up of people who live there?

:lol:

TheBoiledEgg
09-27-2006, 03:00 PM
what he wants is to make all those "foreigners" that train there US Citizens :rolleyes:

yeah go the easy way, go pinch players of other nations cos the US cant produce their own :o

shotgun
09-27-2006, 03:01 PM
I would think it would be hard to get too excited about the Russians' triumph when two of the stars haven't lived in the country since they were boys. (Marat Safin, who left to train in Spain as a junior, now resides in Monte Carlo.)

He even forgot to name Davydenko and possibly Andreev to make his point stronger. Nice work Wertheim.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:04 PM
He even forgot to name Davydenko and possibly Andreev to make his point stronger. Nice work Wertheim.

Davydenko in Germany and Andreev in Spain, but if they played a role in this tie they'd have got a mention.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:05 PM
does this mean that Monte Carlo should have its own Davis Cup team(s) made up of people who live there?

:lol:

It would have to be better than Lisnard and Balleret. It would potentially be a great team :)

partygirl
09-27-2006, 03:05 PM
i can't help but notice how "Americanized" Tursunov (& sharapova...who is no kind of Russian) are...it does sort of make me wish they would represent.

...eh but what are you going to do?

the U.S has a great team anyway.

MarieS
09-27-2006, 03:06 PM
He's got a point though.
Which is what exactly?
It's just a pathetic attempt to minimalize Russia's victory, that's all. This argument always annoys the hell out of me because what people fail/refuse to understand is all players he mentioned WOULD be citizens if it wasn't so damn hard. Dima has lived in the US for 12 years and he can't fuckin' get so much as a green card, how is he supposed to be a citizen?

And it's hard to get excited about this win? What? Just ask ANY russian you know about the excitiment level this tie produced. And i LOVE how he brings up Marat living in Monte Carlo; as tursunov said recently, "residence" is such a loose term for tennis players, because they don't ever spend more than one month in the same place.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:07 PM
i can't help but notice how "Americanized" Tursunov & sharapova are...it does sort of make me wish they would represent the way & place they choose to live which has given them much.


...eh but what are you going to do?

the U.S has a great team anyway.

Have you ever read about Tursunov's problems in getting citizenship? He wanted to do it ages ago, but they dropped the ball and Tursunov didn't bother with it.

partygirl
09-27-2006, 03:11 PM
Have you ever read about Tursunov's problems in getting citizenship? He wanted to do it ages ago, but they dropped the ball and Tursunov didn't bother with it.
actually i was not aware & at this stage i wouldn't put any kind of fuck up past the U.S government & i wouldn't blame anyone not wanting to represent them...

i just meant i notice it and thought it -interesting.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:17 PM
Do you research Worthless.

Tursunov about citizenship issues.

Q. The annual question, what is your status with citizenship with the US? Still up in the air?

DIMITRY TURSUNOV: Yes. It's in the works.

Q. Is it any further along than last year?

DIMITRY TURSUNOV: I have no idea. It's something a lawyer would answer. I've stopped a long time ago asking those questions. It's something if it happens it happens.

Q. Got to be frustrating. You've been doing it for two or three years?

DIMITRY TURSUNOV: Actually, it's been since -- ever since I came over. So it's been 10 years. There has been some mishaps with applications. So now I guess maybe there's some sort of red flag along with my portfolio. It's more difficult for me to get it than, let's say, for someone who just shows up. Yeah, I mean, I've missed two or three tournaments this year because I couldn't get the visa for the country. I do get fined for that, surprisingly. It's not really my fault, but there is a firm rule that says if you're entered into a tournament, you miss it without pulling out at a certain time, you do get fined.

Q. So you're traveling under a Russian passport?

DIMITRY TURSUNOV: Russian passport. I stay in America with the visa. It is frustrating, but what can you do?

Richard_from_Cal
09-27-2006, 03:17 PM
Hahahaha, yes like the time the Swedes made the final 7 times in a row and the team lived in Monaco or London and none of them resided in Sweden. Yes, that made the achievement less notable.

Boohoo.
The Swedes made the Davis Cup final 7 times in a row...and I wasn't paying attention?

Gotta check this! :worship:

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 03:18 PM
Which is what exactly?
Same reason I can't understand why someone who left his country to find better life in the first place stays loyal to his old country after his new one has offered him the kind of opportunities he would never have been offered otherwise.

But that's just me, I hate anything nationalistic, and DC most of all (the most hypocritical attempt to turn individual sport into team sport).

TheBoiledEgg
09-27-2006, 03:20 PM
Swedes of the 80's the best team(s) of all time.

couldnt see Edberg play for GBR :tape:

Richard_from_Cal
09-27-2006, 03:22 PM
The Swedes made the Davis Cup final 7 times in a row...and I wasn't paying attention?

Gotta check this! :worship:
...and after Borg retired! :eek: :hatoff:

--Props to George!!

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:22 PM
The Swedes made the Davis Cup final 7 times in a row...and I wasn't paying attention?

Gotta check this! :worship:

1983-1989.

partygirl
09-27-2006, 03:24 PM
Do you research Worthless.

? :aplot:

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 03:25 PM
?
what is this?
I think he refers to Wertheim...

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:26 PM
?
what is this?

Worthless whining about Tursunov taking citizenship. Well it's not hard to find stuff about the problems he had taking it and the fact he had to make a choice, it wasn't surprising he chose Russia.

alfonsojose
09-27-2006, 03:27 PM
I guess they all pay taxes in U.S. since they live there. So they do give back. How many sucessful U.S. citizens live and earn money overseas :shrug: :rolleyes:

U.S. teens only think about being a celebrity like Paris Hilton, Johnny Knoxville or Fifty Cent and of course, getting high :smoke: What can u expect if ESPN chooses Poker over Tennis?. What a message. It's so cool to be a fat, lazy pig who knows about pizza, beer and gambling

MarieS
09-27-2006, 03:33 PM
Same reason I can't understand why someone who left his country to find better life in the first place stays loyal to his old country after his new one has offered him the kind of opportunities he would never have been offered otherwise.

Well again, those of us who've come to take advantage of those opportunities(as if the US doesn't take advantage of us) would love to be US citizens, but the process is a complicated one and sometimes takes decades. I had to wait 8 years for a green card. Dmitry is still waiting for his (12 years and counting). You have to live another 7 after receiving a green card to even be eligible for applying for a citizenship. How is this his fault?

tangerine_dream
09-27-2006, 03:34 PM
Scrambled Eggy sounds annoyed that some of the Russians had to leave Russia in order to become better tennis players. :lol:

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 03:36 PM
Well again, those of us who've come to take advantage of those opportunities(as if the US doesn't take advantage of us) would love to be US citizens, but the process is a complicated one and sometimes takes decades. I had to wait 8 years for a green card. Dmitry is still waiting for his (12 years and counting). You have to live another 7 after receiving a green card to even be eligible for applying for a citizenship. How is this his fault?
Never said it was, but how come he feels this kind of patriotic feelings towards a country he so eagerly wants to replace?

Neely
09-27-2006, 03:37 PM
Well, it should in no means make the Russian success any smaller, but I can't disagree with him completely: these competitions lost their relevance a bit because today it's many times more frequent that somebody holds a citizenship of a country to which he has not much connection, relation anymore. In the most brutal cases it is only a paper which states that you are this and that nationality/citizenship. But ultimately it's the only thing which matters for Davis Cup and that's perfectly okay and doesn't make a success any smaller, but it takes away a bit of the flair of a team and the whole competition.

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 03:37 PM
Scrambled Eggy sounds annoyed that some of the Russians had to leave Russia in order to become better tennis players. :lol:
The day has come when I agree with you :eek:

MarieS
09-27-2006, 03:41 PM
Scrambled Eggy sounds annoyed that some of the Russians had to leave Russia in order to become better tennis players. :lol:
:scratch:
Where'd you get that from? :shrug:

Never said it was, but how come he feels this kind of patriotic feelings towards a country he so eagerly wants to replace?
He did live there and did grow up there. It's not that easy to erase that and all of a sudden become American (and i LOVE this part) only when America is ready to embrace you. If he wasn't a brilliant tennis player he'd just be another damn foreigner who's here to exploit poor America's scarce resources.

He's applied for citizenship; the ball was in the INS's/US's court and they dropped it. End of story.

Neely
09-27-2006, 03:41 PM
Scrambled Eggy sounds annoyed that some of the Russians had to leave Russia in order to become better tennis players. :lol:
Don't you understand the whole USA just suck soooo much and hard, still so many people from all of the world want to enjoy its school and sports education system among other benefits? :lol: :p

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:47 PM
So is Baghdatis any less Cypriot cause he had to leave and further his career?

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 03:53 PM
So is Baghdatis any less Cypriot cause he had to leave and further his career?
If he applied for French citizenship and/or showed no intention of ever moving back to Cyprus...? hell yeah...

Aphex
09-27-2006, 03:54 PM
Ok, now I get why you call him wortless. And it's not like this issue is unique for the US, it happens in many pther countries.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:55 PM
If he applied for French citizenship and/or showed no intention of ever moving back to Cyprus...? hell yeah...

You are having a laugh with me now? He knows exactly where he is from and knows he would not have made it by staying in Cyprus.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 03:56 PM
Ok, now I get why you call him wortless. And it's not like this issue is unique for the US, it happens in many pther countries.

It's no problem Qatar buys athletes or when the Aussie recruit from other countries.

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 04:01 PM
You are having a laugh with me now? He knows exactly where he is from and knows he would not have made it by staying in Cyprus.
Sure, but does he have any plans to live in Cyprus when his career is over? I doubt Safin, Tursunov and Sharapova have similar plans with Russia.

Neely
09-27-2006, 04:04 PM
It's no problem Qatar buys athletes or when the Aussie recruit from other countries.
Yes, happens many times in almost all sports and I think it's ridiculous if somebody takes a nationality to which he has no relation at all.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 04:04 PM
Sure, but does he have any plans to live in Cyprus when his career is over? I doubt Safin, Tursunov and Sharapova have similar plans with Russia.

I don't imagine Baghdatis won't return to Cyprus. I mean come on, he will have plenty of cash, sit on the beach, drink coffee and eat all that lamb in warm weather.

silverwhite
09-27-2006, 04:04 PM
If he applied for French citizenship and/or showed no intention of ever moving back to Cyprus...? hell yeah...

I agree. It's fair for people to question your loyalty to your country if you apply for citizenship elsewhere. :shrug:

Aphex
09-27-2006, 04:07 PM
does this mean that Monte Carlo should have its own Davis Cup team(s) made up of people who live there?

:lol: Monaco should have won DC 25 times by now. :lol:

MarieS
09-27-2006, 04:07 PM
Sure, but does he have any plans to live in Cyprus when his career is over? I doubt Safin, Tursunov and Sharapova have similar plans with Russia.
You sure like to speak for people, don't you? Safin has said many times that he wants to live in Moscow after he retires.

niko
09-27-2006, 04:11 PM
Citizenship gives you nothing but the right to vote and Uncle Sam doesn't give a s--t weather you're a citizen or not anyway. :)

star
09-27-2006, 04:15 PM
I think that Wertheim is looking at it from his own perspective: It would seem odd if the U.S. Davis Cup team were comprised of men who had lived abroad since their early teens. We would probably be a little upset that we couldn't provide the training needed to develop top players.

But, I think if that were the case, we would still be excited about a Davis Cup trophy. He's being a little short sighted about what people see as their own. I still have an affection for Sweden and want Swedish players to do well because I still see Sweden as the "homeland" even though I've never lived there. I was just brought up with the idea that Sweden was "home."

napki
09-27-2006, 04:15 PM
it seems like you guys would kick out everyone who lives and intends to live outside of the country he/she plays for, like Safin and Sharapova for example. I don't know where they intend to live the rest of their lives but this way DC teams would change every couple of years. and yes, Monaco would have a great team. :drool:

p.s. didn't you hear about dual citizenship?

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 04:25 PM
Monaco should have won DC 25 times by now. :lol:

Imagine the Monaco team in the 80s and 90s. They'd have won on all surfaces.

Socket
09-27-2006, 04:42 PM
It's all a bit moot, because under ITF rules, there's a "stay out" period if a player once played for Country X before he/she can play for Country Y. Tursunov would be retired before he could play for the US, even if he got his citizenship today.

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 04:43 PM
3 years is the period.

Lee
09-27-2006, 04:54 PM
p.s. didn't you hear about dual citizenship?

Dual citizenship is not allowed in many countries. USA is one that's pretty feisty about it.

GlennMirnyi
09-27-2006, 05:04 PM
Davydenko is Ukranian... :rolleyes:

Saumon
09-27-2006, 05:16 PM
You sure like to speak for people, don't you? Safin has said many times that he wants to live in Moscow after he retires.
He'll probably live between Moscow and Spain :p


btw I think (but I can be wrong) that the main reason why Dmitry applied for a Green Card was because it would have been easier for him to travel :shrug: (and he probably got married to try to make things go faster :o)

gulzhan
09-27-2006, 05:20 PM
I agree. It's fair for people to question your loyalty to your country if you apply for citizenship elsewhere. :shrug:

What a bullshit! :mad: Don't take a fact out of the circumstances and abuse it!!!!! You know nothing about the time when Tursunov and Sharapova left Russia to get training in the US! You have no clue on what it took their parents to survive at that time! Only Soviet Union citizens who tried to get education abroad at that time can judge if it questions their loyalty to the mother-country or not. And I am answering you-- it questions nothing! :mad:

We've been going through the transition period, had no hard currency, no private ownership on real estate... You can't even imagine what a hussle you had to go through to get an exit visa, damn-- mere passport for traveling abroad, at that time! Oh, well-- whom am I talking to?!!! :banghead: Margaritas ante porkas (whatever spelling!)

The point is--- application for US citizenship at that time means nothing and questions nothing! Tursunov's game against Roddick on Sunday means everything!!! He fought for his team and for his country! He was, is and will be Russian/Soviet and is proud of it! Good this or bad but nothing can change it! :worship:

Sorry, Navratilova, but I think... :sad: Well, as a person without motherland I feel sorry for you.... :crying2:

silverwhite
09-27-2006, 05:30 PM
What a bullshit! :mad: Don't take a fact out of the circumstances and abuse it!!!!! You know nothing about the time when Tursunov and Sharapova left Russia to get training in the US! You have no clue on what it took their parents to survive at that time! Only Soviet Union citizens who tried to get education abroad at that time can judge if it questions their loyalty to the mother-country or not. And I am answering you-- it questions nothing! :mad:

We've been going through the transition period, had no hard currency, no private ownership on real estate... You can't even imagine what a hussle you had to go through to get an exit visa, damn-- mere passport for traveling abroad, at that time! Oh, well-- whom am I talking to?!!! :banghead: Margaritas ante porkas (whatever spelling!)

The point is--- application for US citizenship at that time means nothing and questions nothing! Tursunov's game against Roddick on Sunday means everything!!! He fought for his team and for his country! He was, is and will be Russian/Soviet and is proud of it! Good this or bad but nothing can change it! :worship:

Sorry, Navratilova, but I think... :sad: Well, as a person without motherland I feel sorry for you.... :crying2:

Being rude doesn't make your argument more convincing.

All I have to say is this. I don't doubt that Tursunov and Sharapova are proud to be Russian, but having spent so many of their formative years in the US, it's hard to believe that they don't feel attached to the country.

napki
09-27-2006, 05:49 PM
Dual citizenship is not allowed in many countries. USA is one that's pretty feisty about it.
As far as i know US allows dual citizenship and having it would simplify Dmitry's life travel-wise. Even now people with Russian passports have difficulties getting visas to certain countries or getting it time after time.

As for living somewhere for a long period of time, US is a great place for training and i don't see why Dmitry would move now when everything is going well for him. Of course he would feel attached to the place where he lived for 10 years, but it doesn't mean he should play for US because of it. :shrug:

rmb6687
09-27-2006, 06:15 PM
The USA allows dual citizenship with certain coutries, like Canada...but even them, I'm sure that takes forever as well. He has run out of options, it's just that the US is taking so damn long to give him something that he needs

Mechlan
09-27-2006, 06:23 PM
Is Dmitry applying for US citizenship? I thought he was applying for just a green card..? :confused:

Action Jackson
09-27-2006, 06:27 PM
Is Dmitry applying for US citizenship? I thought he was applying for just a green card..? :confused:

He has forgotten about it.

Saumon
09-27-2006, 06:28 PM
Is Dmitry applying for US citizenship? I thought he was applying for just a green card..? :confused:
definitly not the us citizenship ;) btw do you really think he wants to leave the fabulous russian team now? If I was part of this team I would never ever leave it :p

gulzhan
09-27-2006, 06:32 PM
Being rude doesn't make your argument more convincing.

All I have to say is this. I don't doubt that Tursunov and Sharapova are proud to be Russian, but having spent so many of their formative years in the US, it's hard to believe that they don't feel attached to the country.

:confused: What argument? i said you don't know the subject, that's all!

And what being attached has anything to do with patriotism and love to your own country? I am attached (very much!) to the ski slopes in Italy and to the beaches in Marbellia, so what? :confused:

DrJules
09-27-2006, 06:41 PM
Same reason I can't understand why someone who left his country to find better life in the first place stays loyal to his old country after his new one has offered him the kind of opportunities he would never have been offered otherwise.

But that's just me, I hate anything nationalistic, and DC most of all (the most hypocritical attempt to turn individual sport into team sport).

Reality is rather more complicated.

You may have a strong ethnically and cultural attachment to your original country, but need to travel overseas to realise your ambitions.

In a number of sports, like other areas of life, if you want to reach the top you need to train or be in the US. Often you have to spend long periods away from friends and family to achieve your goals.

Clara Bow
09-27-2006, 06:42 PM
Dual citizenship is not allowed in many countries. USA is one that's pretty feisty about it.

My brother has said that it can be quite hard. He has not lived in the US since he was 21 - and now he is 35 living in Surrey outside of London. (He has lived in Paris, Geneva, Singapore and Dublin but most of the time he has lived in/around London since he has been abroad.) His wife is from northern England and his two kids that were born in Dublin. His kids are duo citizens- I think. But he has mentioned that it would be quite hard to become a dual citizen between the US and the UK ( the exact details escape me). So right now he is a US citizen living in the UK- paying taxes out the wazoo to both countries.

Dmitry has said before that he is a "citizen of the world." He has mentioned that when he is in the US he is looked at as a Russian in the US and when he is in Russia- he is looked at at an American in Russia.

But I am not going to begrudge him for playing for Russia at all - the US government has not done much at all to enable him to become a citizen or green card holder. I do think that it is a shame that he tried to get a green card and was treated rather shabbily (as are a number of folks... my brother-in-law works for the INS and there are literally stories of applications being forgotten in desk drawers).

I do wish that Wertheim had done his proper research before answering the question.

You may have a strong ethnically and cultural attachment to your original country, but need to travel overseas to realise your ambitions.

Very well said. I think sometimes folks in some countries may not realize that the opportunities to go further in a sport are just not available at all in some parts of the world.

I guess by Jon W's defination Youzhny's win was the only one that counted since he is the only one who still lives in the US?

DrJules
09-27-2006, 06:46 PM
As for living somewhere for a long period of time, US is a great place for training and i don't see why Dmitry would move now when everything is going well for him. Of course he would feel attached to the place where he lived for 10 years, but it doesn't mean he should play for US because of it. :shrug:


Agree totally.

Just because for practical reasons you train in the US because of excellent facilities it should not mean you have to become American.

oz_boz
09-27-2006, 07:10 PM
Why would it mean less?

As long as the players Wertheim points out pay their taxes in the US, there's no reason to complain. As a few have pointed out, they are allowed to choose their citizenship for their own reasons. It's not illegal to live in USA as a Russian.

Socket
09-27-2006, 07:18 PM
My brother has said that it can be quite hard. He has not lived in the US since he was 21 - and now he is 35 living in Surrey outside of London. (He has lived in Paris, Geneva, Singapore and Dublin but most of the time he has lived in/around London since he has been abroad.) His wife is from northern England and his two kids that were born in Dublin. His kids are duo citizens- I think. But he has mentioned that it would be quite hard to become a dual citizen between the US and the UK ( the exact details escape me). So right now he is a US citizen living in the UK- paying taxes out the wazoo to both countries.

Dmitry has said before that he is a "citizen of the world." He has mentioned that when he is in the US he is looked at as a Russian in the US and when he is in Russia- he is looked at at an American in Russia.

But I am not going to begrudge him for playing for Russia at all - the US government has not done much at all to enable him to become a citizen or green card holder. I do think that it is a shame that he tried to get a green card and was treated rather shabbily (as are a number of folks... my brother-in-law works for the INS and there are literally stories of applications being forgotten in desk drawers).

I do wish that Wertheim had done his proper research before answering the question.



Very well said. I think sometimes folks in some countries may not realize that the opportunities to go further in a sport are just not available at all in some parts of the world.

I guess by Jon W's defination Youzhny's win was the only one that counted since he is the only one who still lives in the US?
I'm confused why your brother is not getting credit against his US taxes for his UK taxes. The USA (unlike most European countries) taxes on the basis of citizenship, not residence, but you're supposed to get a credit for foreign taxes paid if you live abroad. My brother who lives in France gets that, and since his French taxes are so much higher than his US taxes, he essentially pays next to nothing in US taxes.

MariaV
09-27-2006, 07:41 PM
Sure, but does he have any plans to live in Cyprus when his career is over? I doubt Safin, Tursunov and Sharapova have similar plans with Russia.

Marat has on many occasions said he plans to live in Moscow after his active career. He spends a lot of time in Moscow. :wavey:
Tursunov has also spent cnsiderable amount of time in Moscow in 2005, 2006. He said he kinda 'moved back to Moscow' after joining the Russian DC team. :D
So both guys are no strangers in Russia.

Clara Bow
09-27-2006, 07:47 PM
I'm confused why your brother is not getting credit against his US taxes for his UK taxes. The USA (unlike most European countries) taxes on the basis of citizenship, not residence, but you're supposed to get a credit for foreign taxes paid if you live abroad. My brother who lives in France gets that, and since his French taxes are so much higher than his US taxes, he essentially pays next to nothing in US taxes

He did mention that he receives a credit- but said that he still has to pay a tidy sum. I don't know if it is because he is at a high income level and therefore in one of the higher tax brackets. He is a currency analyst so he is likely doing everything he can to get his taxes low. That stated, he is also essentially a Libertarian - so maybe to him the taxes may strike him as higher than they would to others. :)

Socket
09-27-2006, 08:01 PM
He did mention that he receives a credit- but said that he still has to pay a tidy sum. I don't know if it is because he is at a high income level and therefore in one of the higher tax brackets. He is a currency analyst so he is likely doing everything he can to get his taxes low. That stated, he is also essentially a Libertarian - so maybe to him the taxes may strike him as higher than they would to others. :)
You're right, it's probably the income level. My brother is self-employed and has four kids, as well, which also helps. :baby:

I bitch about my taxes, too, so I guess I'm also a Libertarian. :)

Vass
09-27-2006, 08:02 PM
tennis players travel the world all season long and don't live in their country of nationality for more than 2-3 months in a year. They have two months and even then they might travel to some warm country to continue training. Many of they actually said that they can't stay in one place for long because they aren't used to it... This "this guy doesn't live in his country' thing is absolutely annoying.

Plus, as everyone says, nationality is a personal thing.

Plus, while the players train in another country they at least pay academy fees and in general are paying consumers. That's "giving something" to the country that gave them tennis training.

Finally, in Tursunov's case: he hasn't lived in USA for half his life. He's 24 and moved to the US at the age of 14. 10 years minus the years of travel, you get...?
Oh and his green card and citizenship applications have been denied.

wally1
09-27-2006, 08:04 PM
I agree with most of what's been said in this thread i.e. perfectly OK to live abroad but still represent your country of birth. But to me, applying for and becoming a citizen of another country is a much bigger step, especially if it's somewhere like the US, where I believe you have to swear a public oath of allegiance and to defend the constitution etc. For example, I recently read an interview with Annika Sorenstam who's now a US citizen, but where she said she still wants to play for Europe against America in the Solheim Cup - I don't really see how she could feel comfortable doing that having sworn allegiance to the United States.

gulzhan
09-27-2006, 08:11 PM
Plus, while the players train in another country they at least pay academy fees and in general are paying consumers. That's "giving something" to the country that gave them tennis training.


:yeah: exactly!

Broomie
09-27-2006, 08:14 PM
Wertheim is just bitter.
Marat considers Moscow home, he's said it many times. When he feels home-sick he goes back to moscow. Not Monte carlo, or spain. He only spends the required number of days in Monte Carlo, so that he can pay his taxes there. Period.
The only player in the Russian team who is linked to the USA is Tursunov.
And just because you left your contry in your teen years does not mean you turn your back at it or lost touch.
Some people come from other countries and France/US/UK/spain/whatever are the easiest solution in terms of opportunities. It does not mean that they do not like their country of origin. I have a friend of mine who's been living in the states for 15 years now, and she still consider France her home. That's where most part of her family is, that's where she has her childhood souvenirs. She's not married in the states. She just has friends. And when she comes in France, she calls it home. It does not change the fact that she loves living in the USA. And she already gives back.
Tursunov does not have anything to regret: he once tried to become american, it did not work, and Russia accepted him back the best way possible. Why should he feel weird??
Wertheim who is supposed to be a tennis expert, should know that most player train elsewhere because of opportunities.
Grosjean, Haas, etc live in the US. I guess Wertheim won't mind until Grosjean or Haas beat an american player?

paper_chaser
09-27-2006, 09:01 PM
I guess Wertheim won't mind until Grosjean or Haas beat an american player?

Thank You!!
Throughout the years, people have always had something to say about foreign athletes living and training in the US then represeting their own countries. This is a common debate with Olympic athletes. It's usually never a big deal until they beat Americans.

WF4EVER
09-27-2006, 09:10 PM
Thank You!!
Throughout the years, people have always had something to say about foreign athletes living and training in the US then represeting their own countries. This is a common debate with Olympic athletes. It's usually never a big deal until they beat Americans.

WHich is obviously why Wetheim responded the way he did. I'm sure if the US had won the tie he wouldn't have been complaining that Tursunov should really be playing for the US.

And since when has the US not taken the best out of other countries for their own benefit? I'm astounded when I look at some of the names of people who make up American temas. Obviously they have benefitted greatly from the immigrants who have represented them. I find it merely sour grapes from Wertheim and I fully expect that rather soon SHarapova will get her green card because there are no American women worthy of mention left to represent women's tennis.

I actually applaud players who, although they live in a foreign country, still represent their native land in world competition. However it appears that in Tursunov's case he was left with no choice and now somebody's crying because of it.

Saumon
09-27-2006, 09:18 PM
btw Marat will probably get 3 WCs for french tourneys till the end of the year. We should ask him to play DC for France to reward us, what do you think? :p He's stealing WCs honest French players could have received after all. :)

paper_chaser
09-27-2006, 10:13 PM
btw Marat will probably get 3 WCs for french tourneys till the end of the year. We should ask him to play DC for France to reward us, what do you think? :p He's stealing WCs honest French players could have received after all. :)

Actually, the French should have demanded a default, since Safin should be playing for Monte Carlo, Davydenko should be playing for Germany and Turnsunov should have been playing for the US :rolleyes:

Come to think of it, maybe that's what the US should have done, too!

Tennis Fool
09-28-2006, 03:42 AM
Interesting topic.

It lends me to think about the Baylor situation where the top two players were German (one being Ben Becker), playing NCAA tennis and still receiving money from playing pro tennis. I know some of you heard JMac say, during the Becker/Agassi match "are there any Americans on that team?"

Dmitry wouldn't be in the situation he is if he knew the right people. Remember the ice-skater Belbin got a US citizenship in less than a month, through an Act of Congress, or she would have had to miss the Olympics where she received the Silver medal in ice dancing with her partner.

Which brings me to Maria who does not share the same comraderie with the Fed Cup Russians that Dmitry has with Marat, etc. I understand that Myskina doesn't consider her Russian, that "she speaks with a vulgar accent" and Myskina has threatened to boycott the team if Sharapova, the #1 Russian, joined.

Speaking of Sharapova, Dick Enberg and the US media & sponsors consider her American.

The young Russians I know, who came here in the early 1990s live in Russian neighborhoods, eat Russian food, speak Russian, but have US citizenship.

Finally, half of all worldwide Olmpians train in the US.

All of this is to say, globalization has had a very complicated impact.

dkw
09-28-2006, 05:32 AM
Mike from San Diego's question only has merit if the USTA was footing Dimtry's bills and giving him wildcards.

If he was paying his own way and slogging it out on the challengers circut to get where he is without the help of the US or Russia then he doesn't owe anyone anything and can chose whichever team makes him more comfortable or to just sit on his ass and blog all day long.

{Annie}
09-28-2006, 07:22 AM
I am not commenting on this. I don't think any one of them could be more Russian than they already are. This whole discussion is ridiculous, just as many are unfortunately here recently :p

Rosa Luxembourg
09-28-2006, 05:12 PM
To use his (Worthless) logic USA should stop counting Martina's and Monica's GS's and medals as US's


PS. Without all those "ugly/unfaithful" foreigners, Florida and California wouldn't have had all those tennis jobs they have now. :p

SwissMister1
09-28-2006, 05:37 PM
Interesting, because Ryan Sweeting, the Bahamanian, was sitting on the US players bench next to the Bryans during the tie. But if he or Kuznetsov who has also traveled with the team winds up playing DC for the US in a few years I guess it will be ok.

jayjay
09-28-2006, 05:55 PM
There is alot of shit written about all kinds of issues, you can add this to it (Wertheim's opinion on this issue).

Maybe he didn't watch the match - I did. At the end I saw thousands of Russians going fucking nuts, maybe I should go through it in slow motion and pick out the men and women in the crowd with puzzled looks on their faces as they contemplated whether or not they should celebrate the victories of Russians Safin & Tursunov because they happen to live outside Russia.

It's not like people live outside the country of their birth is it - that's really weird!?:rolleyes:

WillRogersBeach
09-28-2006, 09:38 PM
I'm an American and I wrote Jon Wertheim a scathing note about being bitter. This is an article that he probably wrote just after the US defeat. It cries of sour grapes. I told him to do his homework before making a fool of himself. Like many of you, I wrote - "Dima's alleged treason might have not have even been an issue if the US won over Russia".

Feel free to write him and let him know how you feel. As a Californian, I'm not happy that the US lost. But, I'm happy for Dima. I'm sure the guy feels already torn. But, as he has said, he is playing for a team and it's Davis Cup and not a WAR!

liptea
09-28-2006, 10:50 PM
What did Myskina say about Maria? I know it's a WTA question, but I barely follow WTA so I'm not even sure.

Action Jackson
09-29-2006, 07:47 AM
Tursunov got heaps of support from the USTA as a teen.

When asked about the Russian and the US tennis federations: "I was frustrated with both federations. When ever you need help, there is no help. Whenever you're doing well, people will offer you help," he confides. "It's like that in anything, not just tennis. In an ideal world, you would have a federation watching over you, pick players up early and lead them along."

jayjay
09-29-2006, 03:14 PM
[QUOTE=liptea;4191052]What did Myskina say about Maria? I know it's a WTA question, but I barely follow WTA so I'm not even sure.

It was something along the lines of Sharapova is not really Russian, she acts more American and speaks poor Russian. Myskina has a point on Sharapova who has hardly shown what could be described as committment to Russia Fed Cup team. I'm not convinced she'll ever play for them in Fed Cup.

Wouldn't it be awkward if someone won Davis Cup for two different countries

Forget winning, I find it strange to see a guy play for different nations. It's happened in many sports - one of our greatest footballers played for different nations, Di Stefano. And there are many other cases past and present from a variety of sports - I am always uncomfortable with it.

I think once you have represented your nation, then you shouldn't be allowed to then go and play for another later down the line. We had this debate also on kings of clay during the whole "will Djokovic play for GB" deal. My view is the same as it was then.

Where you live is irrelevant, I'm Argentinian but I currently live in England and have done for a while and in future I plan on living in Spain - I'm still Argentinian though, that's how I feel. And if I was ever good enough to play football at International level (or any level - LOL) I would only want it to be for Argentina, not England even though I'd be eligible to do so.

Dancing Hero
09-29-2006, 05:21 PM
Dunno, Safin and Tursunov are still Russian, aren't they?

Though I heard Tursunov speak last year and he sounded as American as anyone ever has.



:D

Vass
09-29-2006, 06:18 PM
Though I heard Tursunov speak last year and he sounded as American as anyone ever has.


What does knowing english have to dow ith nationality. This is ridiculous.

I can take myself as an example: I'm Russian but have been living abroad since i was 7 (12 years abroad). I live in Dubai but speak clear american english. Can someone tell me what nationality i am? :rolleyes:

artlinkletter
10-03-2006, 11:24 PM
I just finished reading Wertheim's latest Ad in/Ad out peice and he doesn't acknowledge Tursunovs first career title win. He has some guy named Stelio Savante as an Ad in for landing a roll on a TV show, but he can't put in Tursunov?! Oh, but Dima's name does appear, in an Ad out for being part of the Kingfisher rain delayed finals. How generous of him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/10/02/ad.in/index.html

napki
10-04-2006, 07:09 AM
I just finished reading Wertheim's latest Ad in/Ad out peice and he doesn't acknowledge Tursunovs first career title win. He has some guy named Stelio Savante as an Ad in for landing a roll on a TV show, but he can't put in Tursunov?! Oh, but Dima's name does appear, in an Ad out for being part of the Kingfisher rain delayed finals. How generous of him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/10/02/ad.in/index.html
yeah, well. I think i know where he got this idea about Russian team not being Russian at all. :lol:

Leif Shiras, an OLN commentator went on about it during the 5th set of Roddick-Tursunov match (thanks, Tangy!), talking about how many titles they have (Dima didnt' have any at the time) and that he wasn't as well-known as his teammates and could prove himself to the home crowd by winning this match. Then there was something about him not training in Russia as well as many other Russian players including women, followed by an awkward remark that Dima, who has immigrated (WTF?) to US at the age of 12 is in some way a man without a country (=not really a Russian). Tadaaam!

I think it's called plagiarism in countries with active copy right laws. :p On the second thought, maybe if Shiras paid him to promote this idea. :scratch: And if it sticks he can always say that he said it first and go down in the OLN books as one of the greatest insighters of the game. Clever, ay? :p

:smash:

liptea
10-04-2006, 08:01 AM
Though I heard Tursunov speak last year and he sounded as American as anyone ever has.



:D

nah. he has a little bit of an accent here and there. it's weird, his voice tends to switch.

gulzhan
10-04-2006, 11:42 AM
nah. he has a little bit of an accent here and there. it's weird, his voice tends to switch.

perfect russian though! :p

Dancing Hero
10-04-2006, 12:52 PM
What does knowing english have to dow ith nationality. This is ridiculous.

I can take myself as an example: I'm Russian but have been living abroad since i was 7 (12 years abroad). I live in Dubai but speak clear american english. Can someone tell me what nationality i am? :rolleyes:



Vass, you misunderstand me, dear boy! :)


Already said Tursunov was Russian if you read my original post correctly. He speaks English with an American accent largely. I heard him speak once and thought he was American. Nothing to do with being able to speak English, it was the accent. Chill out, dude.


Yeah, I can guess what nationality you are, you've told us.

:) :devil:


:) :devil:

Clara Bow
10-04-2006, 02:01 PM
I just finished reading Wertheim's latest Ad in/Ad out peice and he doesn't acknowledge Tursunovs first career title win. He has some guy named Stelio Savante as an Ad in for landing a roll on a TV show, but he can't put in Tursunov?! Oh, but Dima's name does appear, in an Ad out for being part of the Kingfisher rain delayed finals. How generous of him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/10/02/ad.in/index.html

I saw that as well and got a little miffed. He always acknowledges tournament winners in his Ad column- but this time he failed to do so- even though it was his first title win. That struck me as rather petulant. Poorly done JW.

hanabishi
10-04-2006, 02:04 PM
I just finished reading Wertheim's latest Ad in/Ad out peice and he doesn't acknowledge Tursunovs first career title win. He has some guy named Stelio Savante as an Ad in for landing a roll on a TV show, but he can't put in Tursunov?! Oh, but Dima's name does appear, in an Ad out for being part of the Kingfisher rain delayed finals. How generous of him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/10/02/ad.in/index.html

I noticed that too but I'm willing to give Wertheim the benefit of the doubt for this one. The Mumbai final was Monday and he probably wrote this before that. He didn't acknowledge Mario and Mahesh too (doubles winners in Mumbai).

Clara Bow
10-04-2006, 02:07 PM
The Mumbai final was Monday and he probably wrote this before that

He did say that Dmitry beat Tomas in his remarks about the rain in the out column- so he did have the final results before it went to press. But maybe it was only an add in. Still- it did not look good. And it was orignally posted at 11 at night or so on Monday and had a final edit on Tuesday morning- so he should have been able to do more than just including the win in the out column. I did get a whiff of sour grapes and thought he could have done better.

scoobs
10-04-2006, 02:49 PM
I guess it only matters then if you live in your country and play DC for them?

So Ljubicic's Davis Cup win is worthless too then because he lives in Monte Carlo.

Is that how this works?

tangerine_dream
10-04-2006, 03:34 PM
I'm an American and I wrote Jon Wertheim a scathing note about being bitter. This is an article that he probably wrote just after the US defeat. It cries of sour grapes. I told him to do his homework before making a fool of himself. Like many of you, I wrote - "Dima's alleged treason might have not have even been an issue if the US won over Russia".
Too bad you didn't bother to notice that it wasn't Jon Wertheim who wrote the letter complaining about Dima's "betrayal."

ktwtennis
10-05-2006, 01:15 AM
I agree with Wertheim. If you're using the resources of the another country, then you can't claim that you are from somewhere else, your "homeland". That's like saying I work for Microsoft when I get my paycheck from Netscape...

hanabishi
10-05-2006, 01:36 AM
I agree with Wertheim. If you're using the resources of the another country, then you can't claim that you are from somewhere else, your "homeland". That's like saying I work for Microsoft when I get my paycheck from Netscape...

Um...hell no!

I'm an American. I've been living in the Philippines for the past 8 years, working with a Filipino company. Clearly, I'm using the "resources" of another country (they're paying my salary). So does that mean I can't claim to be from the United States? As far as I know, I'm still American.

Tennis Fool
10-10-2006, 03:54 AM
Just wanted to write that Dementieva just bought a 2.6 million condo overlooking Central Park. To be listed by the New York Post means she's just arrived as a new American :p

gulzhan
10-10-2006, 03:58 AM
Just wanted to write that Dementieva just bought a 2.6 million condo overlooking Central Park. To be listed by the New York Post means she's just arrived as a new American :p

just investment :p

TennisGrandSlam
10-10-2006, 12:36 PM
it seems like you guys would kick out everyone who lives and intends to live outside of the country he/she plays for, like Safin and Sharapova for example. I don't know where they intend to live the rest of their lives but this way DC teams would change every couple of years. and yes, Monaco would have a great team. :drool:

p.s. didn't you hear about dual citizenship?


Switzerland maybe another great team.

Moya
Santoro
Gasquet
Mauresmo

Frooty_Bazooty
10-10-2006, 12:43 PM
I think this really says something about america's apalling international reputation that all these people live in it but don't want to represent it on an international level.

Frooty_Bazooty
10-10-2006, 12:45 PM
Switzerland maybe another great team.

Moya
Santoro
Gasquet
Mauresmo

Mauresmo isnt actually a man....

TennisGrandSlam
10-10-2006, 12:46 PM
Mauresmo isnt actually a man....

But many people think that she is a man :devil: (NOT me)

bluefork
10-10-2006, 02:54 PM
I think this really says something about america's apalling international reputation that all these people live in it but don't want to represent it on an international level.

Or maybe it says something about the tax rates in the other countries...:devil: