Gay Men tennis players should come out [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Gay Men tennis players should come out

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Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 12:05 AM
Why is the ATP tour trying to hide the gay men? I notice when I watch tennis matches the ESPN 2 commentators always talk about Tim Henman and his wife having a child, or at the US OPEN they talk about Agassi and his two children. Or they will talk about Roddick and his various women..or about Federer's girlfriend or Haas women. Yet I wonder why is this heterosexuality thrown into my face? Why can't the ATP have the courage that the WTA has.? Everyone knows that Australian Open champion Amelie Mauresmo is a lesbian and an out and proud lesbian. We know that Renee Stubbs just outed herself in the Australian newspaper The AGE at the Australian open.We also know that Renee's ex girlfriend and doubles partner is Lisa Raymond. Conchita Martinez and Gigi Fernandez used to be a couple. Hana Mandlikova and Jana Novotna have a house together in Belgium. Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova are out and proud lesbians. Yet where are the gay men? Am I supposed to believe only one gay man ever existed in tennis the openly gay 1920s tennis champion Bill Tilden? Tennis is an individual sport..so there is no reason why a male tennis player should hide his homosexuality. And where are the gay male athletes as role models? Sheryl Swoopes had the guts to declare she is a lesbian and she's a superstar WNBA player. I think the time has come that the gay men on the ATP tour come out....

LoveFifteen
02-25-2006, 12:26 AM
Why is the ATP tour trying to hide the gay men?

The ATP is not trying to hide the gay men. No gay players have come out of the closet. That's hardly the ATP's fault.

Federerthebest
02-25-2006, 12:29 AM
yes, it's all a conspiracy to hide the gay men

:retard:

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 12:33 AM
Why is the ATP tour trying to hide the gay men? I notice when I watch tennis matches the ESPN 2 commentators always talk about Tim Henman and his wife having a child, or at the US OPEN they talk about Agassi and his two children. Or they will talk about Roddick and his various women..or about Federer's girlfriend or Haas women. Yet I wonder why is this heterosexuality thrown into my face? Why can't the ATP have the courage that the WTA has.? Everyone knows that Australian Open champion Amelie Mauresmo is a lesbian and an out and proud lesbian. We know that Renee Stubbs just outed herself in the Australian newspaper The AGE at the Australian open.We also know that Renee's ex girlfriend and doubles partner is Lisa Raymond. Conchita Martinez and Gigi Fernandez used to be a couple. Hana Mandlikova and Jana Novotna have a house together in Belgium. Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova are out and proud lesbians. Yet where are the gay men? Am I supposed to believe only one gay man ever existed in tennis the openly gay 1920s tennis champion Bill Tilden? Tennis is an individual sport..so there is no reason why a male tennis player should hide his homosexuality. And where are the gay male athletes as role models? Sheryl Swoopes had the guts to declare she is a lesbian and she's a superstar WNBA player. I think the time has come that the gay men on the ATP tour come out....

Unfortunately, you may never hear of any male player "outing" himself. A man's sexual preference is a big part of his identity (add to that the fact that men's egos are so fragile), so I doubt very seriously that one would be bold enough to put himself in that situation.

ezekiel
02-25-2006, 12:34 AM
because men are pussies

kerrie1981
02-25-2006, 12:46 AM
Your points are eloquently put, but you are being very unrealistic. How many Hollywood actors are out of closet? How many professional baseball players? How many politicians? How many CEOs? Tennis is no different, and maybe it shouldn't be. Gay men who choose not to publicize their sexual preference to whole world are not pussies. They are private. And there's REALLY nothing wrong with THAT!

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 12:51 AM
because men are pussies

Here, truly, is a passionate voice that cries out for homosexual rights and freedoms on the ATP Tour.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 12:51 AM
BUT tennis is an individual sport right, so where is the fear? This is what I don't understand. Everyone loves Amelie she is a major superstar in France, she is constantly on the cover of Paris Match a major French magazine. Amelie has endrosements with Reebok, and other major companies..and we love her. Fans straight and gay love Amelie..we love her courage..to live her life and be out and proud. So would tennis fans really turn on a male tennis star if he was gay? That's my question for tennis fans. Would you care if say a top male tennis player was gay?
Look at the WTA tour there are so many out lesbians and fans still support women's tennis in droves. So what's wrong with men? Why are the men cowards? This is supposeed to be the 21st century? So why is there the fear? If Amelie can do it..then what's then a top male player should do it...tooo...

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 12:52 AM
BUT tennis is an individual sport right, so where is the fear? This is what I don't understand. Everyone loves Amelie she is a major superstar in France, she is constantly on the cover of Paris Match a major French magazine. Amelie has endrosements with Reebok, and other major companies..and we love her. Fans straight and gay love Amelie..we love her courage..to live her life and be out and proud. So would tennis fans really turn on a male tennis star if he was gay? That's my question for tennis fans. Would you care if say a top male tennis player was gay?
Look at the WTA tour there are so many out lesbians and fans still support women's tennis in droves. So what's wrong with men? Why are the men cowards? This is supposeed to be the 21st century? So why is there the fear? If Amelie can do it..then what's then a top male player should do it...tooo...

Again...male ego.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 12:56 AM
Maybe it is the male ego, but it is just suprising because on the WTA tour..and the LPGA tour you have Rosie Jones and Patty Sheean as out lesbians, in the WNBA you have Sheryl Swoopes. And I agree with Sheyl Swoopes there is the stereotype about the lesbian athlete...but Sheryl is correct..there are gay male athletes out there..and its time they came out of the closet...If Sheryl can do it..they should do it too..it never hurt Amelie, or Sheryl or Patty Sheean or Rosie Jones careers by coming out..in fact they became MORE FAMOUS..made MORE MONEY and ENDORSEMENTS..

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:03 AM
Maybe it is the male ego, but it is just suprising because on the WTA tour..and the LPGA tour you have Rosie Jones and Patty Sheean as out lesbians, in the WNBA you have Sheryl Swoopes. And I agree with Sheyl Swoopes there is the stereotype about the lesbian athlete...but Sheryl is correct..there are gay male athletes out there..and its time they came out of the closet...If Sheryl can do it..they should do it too..it never hurt Amelie, or Sheryl or Patty Sheean or Rosie Jones careers by coming out..in fact they became MORE FAMOUS..made MORE MONEY and ENDORSEMENTS..

I don't know why more men won't come out. I would attribute that to how men perceive themselves. Women do not associate their identity with their sexual orientation like men do. It's a huge mental leap for a man to reconcile himself with the fact that he is homosexual, never mind informing the rest of the world.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:06 AM
Yeeessss..... it COULD be the male ego, or some other fashionable piece of psychoanalysis, or it could be that a) there aren't any gay players at the highest, most visible ranks of the game, or b) they don't think it's worth the hassle. Not fear of discrimination or loss of popularity, just an extra piece of baggage - you know, "What message do you have for your gay fans in Australia?", a question that I believe was asked of a rather dumbstruck Mauresmo at the AO this year.

I don't see heterosexuality being thrown at me when I watch tennis coverage, either. If MTF were truly representative of tennis then one would certainly have sexuality of all kinds being thrown around, but thankfully it is not. I doubt they are trying to oppress you, simply attempting to provide human interest pieces. Who can forget Pavel's drive from RG to Germany to be present at the birth of his child, effectively guaranteeing his QF defeat to Corretja the next day? I don't think anyone would begrudge hearing stories like that, even if most of the fluff we hear is somewhat extraneous and irrelevant to the game itself.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 01:07 AM
As a young gay male I think its important that gay role models come out. Its important for society in general that gay people be three dimensional people. I applaud the lesbian athletes such as Amelie Mauresmo for coming out because Amelie is such a great tennis player and a nice person.she shows society that being gay isn't much different then being straight. I don't like it that on the ATP tour there is this false image of heterosexuality when in fact we know due to science there are gay men in the ATP tour. So yes, I applaud lesbians such as Amelie Mauresmo, Sheryl Swoopes for being the brave women they are and declaring they are gay. One thing I find annoying about straight people is the false assumption that being gay is just about sexuality or sex. Being gay is more then just sexuality it composes a big part of who you are as a person. For example, I turn on the TV and I see the camera on Agassi or Henman's or Hewitt's child. And the heterosexual tennis commentators go on and on about heterosexuality and marriage. Do you know why they do this? They do this to promote heterosexuality and also to say that Agassi and Henman are some how "productive" citizens..and "good fathers" and "good men" because they are straight. Yet with gay athletes are still treated with disdain..but not so much by Amelie and Sheryl because they broke the door of homophobia down..they show us..by bringing their girlfriends to their tennis matches..that they have a right to love and a right to live openly just as heterosexuals. And if some gay men tennis players came out they would shatter the image that gay men cannot be masculine and athletes...and that's just not true.

lilfairyprincess
02-25-2006, 01:07 AM
"Why are the men cowards? This is supposeed to be the 21st century? So why is there the fear? If Amelie can do it..then what's then a top male player should do it...tooo... "

I don't have any experience with "coming out" but I have a few friends who have and i can tell you they found it hard enough telling their family and friends that they wer gay nevermind the whole world..so to call people "coawards" for not wanting to share with the world what is reali none of our business anyway is a bit uncalled for imo.


I don't reali get wat all the fuss is about.. its up to each individual person to decide when they want to publically "come out" ..if they want to at all. It's really none of our business what these people decide to do in their personal lives :shrug:

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:11 AM
I agreee it is there decision, i don't think the atp is trying to hide it, but they do promote how much of studs most of their players are.

Men=macho

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:12 AM
Yes, it's all part of this rebellious bad-boy "dynamic" that they are trying to conjure up in a vain attempt to recapture the sport's 70s and 80s heydays. I firmly believe they should try to promote the tennis itself, rather than the "exciting" personalities of those playing it. Put together a highlight reel, including that 45-stroke rally between Federer and Hewitt at IW last year, mixed in with some of Santoro's most magical plays, some of Nadal's most astounding retrievals, an athletic net point from Wimbledon.... emphasise the variety and the entertainment on offer.

ezekiel
02-25-2006, 01:12 AM
so how many gay players is enough and what do you want them to do as gay athletes?

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:15 AM
Men=macho

An invaluable insight into the workings of the male mind.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:15 AM
I'll give credit to the thread-starter: at least this thread is not the 167964949th thread about "which players are gay". Interestingly, we're getting past that and moving into meaningful discussion. Thanks.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:16 AM
An invaluable insight into the workings of the male mind.

Of course...thought you knew. ;)

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 01:18 AM
The ATP tour definitely tries to show I think in a way a negative male image. I really don't think most men are macho. What I honestly believe is that we males are fearful of other men judging us. And that's why some guys put on this tough masculine or macho image. I think when you really get to know most men we are sensitive, we have emotions, we do cry and have feelings. But people don't like that..they don't like sensitive men. Tennis has such a chance to change society because its an individual sport. I guess it would take a very strong man to come out a man that probably doesn't care what people think..but decides to be happy and live his life to the fullest.
That's why I like Johnny Weir the figure skater. Johnny is openly gay and he doesn't care..he's out and gay and proud and he's an athlete. That's what we need more out and proud and open gay men out there to counterbalance this oppressive heterosexuality.... Men like Roddick and Hewitt are disgusting individuals that are immature and not very good sportsmen. I think that's why Federer does so much press because he is the perfect man. I think he's gorgeous but he also seems like a nice person. It was so surprising yet also courageous to see Roger cry when he won the Australian Open. Its so nice to see a man that's not afraid to hide his emotions to show he does care about the game and that he is emotional. Roger is just perfect in every way..to bad he;s straight...
BUT

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:19 AM
I'll give credit to the thread-starter: at least this thread is not the 167964949th thread about "which players are gay". Interestingly, we're getting past that and moving into meaningful discussion. Thanks.

It does make me wonder whether the starters of said threads were actually genuinely concerned about the lack of sexual openness and inability of gay players to express themselves freely on the tour. Could it be that such people were in fact issuing a clarion call for tolerance and respect, for equality of condition on the ATP, rather than simply searching for a spurious piece of gossip and tittle-tattle that they could try to spread round or pass on to anyone willing to pay for it?

No, I didn't think so somehow.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:24 AM
The ATP tour definitely tries to show I think in a way a negative male image. I really don't think most men are macho. What I honestly believe is that we males are fearful of other men judging us. And that's why some guys put on this tough masculine or macho image. I think when you really get to know most men we are sensitive, we have emotions, we do cry and have feelings. But people don't like that..they don't like sensitive men. Tennis has such a chance to change society because its an individual sport. I guess it would take a very strong man to come out a man that probably doesn't care what people think..but decides to be happy and live his life to the fullest.

Tennis has sod all chance to change society while it's as overlooked and underappreciated as it is now, and I'm not sure a single player coming out of the closet would do anything to improve that situation apart from generating a few pathetic tabloid headlines.

That's why I like Johnny Weir the figure skater. Johnny is openly gay and he doesn't care..he's out and gay and proud and he's an athlete. That's what we need more out and proud and open gay men out there to counterbalance this oppressive heterosexuality.... Men like Roddick and Hewitt are disgusting individuals that are immature and not very good sportsmen. I think that's why Federer does so much press because he is the perfect man. I think he's gorgeous but he also seems like a nice person. It was so surprising yet also courageous to see Roger cry when he won the Australian Open. Its so nice to see a man that's not afraid to hide his emotions to show he does care about the game and that he is emotional. Roger is just perfect in every way..to bad he;s straight...
"Oppressive heterosexuality"? Eh? OK, I come at this from the wrong perspective I know, but I really don't see tennis as a sport that shoves it in your face. As for Federer, I've said before that I hate it when he turns on the waterworks and been called a miserable SOB for my opinion, but hey, whatever temperament gets him the results on court is fine by me. ;)

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:25 AM
It does make me wonder whether the starters of said threads were actually genuinely concerned about the lack of sexual openness and inability of gay players to express themselves freely on the tour. Could it be that such people were in fact issuing a clarion call for tolerance and respect, for equality of condition on the ATP, rather than simply searching for a spurious piece of gossip and tittle-tattle that they could try to spread round or pass on to anyone willing to pay for it?

No, I didn't think so somehow.

I didn't think so either. I think it was an attempt to sound gossipy more than anything. Speculating about who could/would be gay does nothing to promote meaningful dialogue on the subject. It sets up said players for judgment and ridicule instead.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:27 AM
It's at this point that I should mention my "Is Marat Safin gay?" thread from a little over two years ago, which someone might be inclined to dig up. But 'twas a mockery of these other threads, you see, not a contributing factor, I hope.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 01:30 AM
Really I find when Roger cries its because he's so sensitive. We get to see a man let his guard down to show his emotions to show how he truly feels inside. Its very rare in the media to show male sensitivity. I don't know why people are fearful of emotional men. I remember when Federer's countryman Stephane Lambiel won the silver medal at the Olympics and Stephane was crying. It was so sweet to see that to see Stephane cry to release that emotion. I think more male athletes need to stop this macho posturing and show their emotions...

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:33 AM
It's at this point that I should mention my "Is Marat Safin gay?" thread from a little over two years ago, which someone might be inclined to dig up. But 'twas a mockery of these other threads, you see, not a contributing factor, I hope.

I should hope not. You have posters whose intentions are less than honorable coming up with interesting post content every day, so you shouldn't be surprised.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:34 AM
Really I find when Roger cries its because he's so sensitive. We get to see a man let his guard down to show his emotions to show how he truly feels inside. Its very rare in the media to show male sensitivity. I don't know why people are fearful of emotional men. I remember when Federer's countryman Stephane Lambiel won the silver medal at the Olympics and Stephane was crying. It was so sweet to see that to see Stephane cry to release that emotion. I think more male athletes need to stop this macho posturing and show their emotions...

Yes, but just as there are differences between the sexes, so there are also differences within them; each individual has their own way of handling themselves and their persona in the public eye. Plenty of players do show their natural emotions out there, I feel; they're just not the ones that you, or indeed I for that matter in the case of players like Roddick, Coria, Nadal etc., want to see.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:34 AM
I think more male athletes need to stop this macho posturing and show their emotions...

It will happen when the US gets a woman president.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:35 AM
I should hope not. You have posters whose intentions are less than honorable coming up with interesting post content every day, so you shouldn't be surprised.

I seem to recall it was taken in the right spirit by everyone concerned. I did much prefer my "Who would you like to see fully clothed and then send to a monastery?" thread, though; that certainly had the desired effect.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:40 AM
I seem to recall it was taken in the right spirit by everyone concerned. I did much prefer my "Who would you like to see fully clothed and then send to a monastery?" thread, though; that certainly had the desired effect.

Yes, I remember, and your thread was delivered in the right spirit. However, we've had posters who've had a very short shelf life inhabit the boards with the same content, albeit with different results. The distinguishable difference, in some cases, was poor command of the language; in others, the inability to conduct proper discourse on a message board.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:41 AM
Or indeed, the unwillingness to conduct anything approaching proper discourse on a message board.

revolution
02-25-2006, 01:47 AM
Think turning him red was harsh.

Maybe because we like lesbian women and they are really popular with us guys but gay men didn't seem to appeal to women when I read through that non-tennis thread about it.

I'm probably running a thin line with this, but that's why I think.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:49 AM
A thin, blue line in fact, one might say. But I was certainly not responsible for dealing out the red dots, I assure you.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:51 AM
Think turning him red was harsh.

Maybe because we like lesbian women and they are really popular with us guys but gay men don't even appeal to women.

I'm probably running a thin line with this, but that's why I think.

I'm going to disagree with you here because you underestimate the feelings and emotions of women when you make that statement. Many of my friends and I have male friends who are gay. Although we understand their sexual orientation, that doesn't make them any less appealing and less lively to us.

revolution
02-25-2006, 01:53 AM
I'm not homophobic, nothing against gays. Just hope the ones on here don't snap at that post.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 01:59 AM
I can't say I particularly enjoy threads about player's girlfriends clogging up the arteries of GM like so much useless fat, if that's what you're thinking. Threads where a conversation occasionally segues into a discussion on a personal life, fine, but I cannot abide the way MTF seems to become like following a soap opera at times.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:59 AM
With that said, I don't think the A.T.P. are actively trying to hide the gay players, and it is kind of interesting how the girls in the W.T.A. have been way more forthcoming about it. Obviously the fact that Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova were there to kind of pave the way for the girls helped, and I agree with the threadstarter in that it would be really awesome if one of the top guys in the A.T.P. did come out, because it would really open the door. Tilden doesn't really count, considering he wasn't nowhere near as famous for "being gay" as King and Martina were/are.

I don't think the ATP is actively and deliberately trying to hide their gay players; then again, the ATP hasn't been all that great about marketing any of their players-gay or straight.

_pyromatic
02-25-2006, 02:04 AM
That's why I like Johnny Weir the figure skater. Johnny is openly gay and he doesn't care..he's out and gay and proud and he's an athlete. That's what we need more out and proud and open gay men out there to counterbalance this oppressive heterosexuality.... Men like Roddick and Hewitt are disgusting individuals that are immature and not very good sportsmen. I think that's why Federer does so much press because he is the perfect man. I think he's gorgeous but he also seems like a nice person. It was so surprising yet also courageous to see Roger cry when he won the Australian Open. Its so nice to see a man that's not afraid to hide his emotions to show he does care about the game and that he is emotional. Roger is just perfect in every way..to bad he;s straight...
BUT
Johnny Weir has never actually come out and said he was gay. Everyone knows he is and the media keeps hinting at it but he's still technically in the closet.

I suppose Andy crying after he won the US Open doesn't count?

Fee
02-25-2006, 02:05 AM
When a player issues a statement about his impending fatherhood or kisses his girlfriend in the stands then I think that puts it in the public domain for discussion.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 02:06 AM
Nah, it wasn't what I was thinking - I was speaking more in general than about any specific person on this thread. Like I said, the double-standard is something that happens pretty regularly everywhere.

And I don't particularly wait with bated breath for those threads either, but at the same time I understand to some extent people's desire to know about the private lives of those players they admire - it makes them seem more human/accessible. Which is part of the reason why many gay guys - myself included - would find it a real hoot if one of the boys did come out.

Yes, that is understandable, and I can see what you mean about the double standard - discussions on homosexual relations seeming to be a taboo topic, not an acceptable mainstream discussion like their heterosexual counterpart. But then, it's precisely because of the lack of any definite knowledge about gay players that people are leery about discussing the subject, because it seems like speculation, and speculation can be pretty tasteless no matter what sexuality is involved.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:08 AM
But I do believe the ATP tour promotes heterosexuality. I read a lot and see TV and all they talk about is which heterosexual player is married or had a child. Its like give me a break? These men travel the world together, play tennis together, train together,. There is a high emphasis on homosocial relationships on the ATP tour. Men we connect on many levels and I know a lot of guys that claim to be straight but all you got to do is get a beer in their hands and suddenly they are singing another tune...
l

The ATP tries to push Roddick and Hewitt a lot..and I find both of them distasteful..and annoying. I like Federer he and Nadal are perfect in every way. They are attractive, young, fit, nice personalities. Federer is so emotional its so rare to see a man so emotional in sports. He is a breath of fresh air.

Fee
02-25-2006, 02:13 AM
So you're just another Roddick-bashing Fed lover? Fantastic, welcome to MTF.

How does the ATP promote heterosexuality again? TV commentators are not employees of the ATP. Your problem is with ESPN.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 02:14 AM
Well, the ATP can't create what isn't there, or rather, what is not known to be there. Until a player makes a decision to say something, then nothing will change, and saying "Well, he MUST be gay" is simply rumour-mongering.

I find Roddick and Hewitt distasteful and annoying too, though probably for different reasons. Federer isn't really that emotional though, the teary victory speeches are still outnumbered by the composed Grand Slam celebrations.

Experimentee
02-25-2006, 02:17 AM
Male players dont out themselves because its more acceptable in society for women to be lesbians than it is for men to be gay.
Its especially male athletes who dont out themselves because there is a macho aspect to males playing sport, and therefore others may think less of a gay athlete.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 02:17 AM
That was suggested on page 1 of this thread.

belco
02-25-2006, 02:18 AM
silly thread

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:21 AM
I agree that lesbianism is more acceptable to a certain extent. I think straight men find lesbians sexy. But that doesn't mean straight women don't find gay men sexy. Look at Brokeback Mountain..that movie is fan fiction/slash. Annie Proulx the writer she's a straight woman and a lot of women love it seeing beautiful men kissing...I know a lot of girls that love the movie Brokeback Mountain and they have seen it like 4 times or more...

OddJob
02-25-2006, 02:21 AM
Just a thought:

I think it's interesting that after having multiple-page discussions on this forum about A. Murray and his girlfriend, and after talking about Wayne Arthurs and his wife and baby, a lot of people consider it weird when someone wants to know who's gay in the A.T.P. That's all hetero stuff, and no one really bats an eyelash when it's discussed.

Yet when The Gay is mentioned suddenly some people jump in to talk about how "it's their private life" and "why is it any of our business?" and "that's just gossip." Seems like for some it's okay to "gossip" about and dissect hetero relations on the tour to death and gush on about their favorite players and who they're currently doing at the moment... and yet when someone wants to know about anything gay that's going on suddenly that's somehow "not appropriate" or "not necessary." Double standard, anyone? (I'm not talking about just this forum either, it happens all the time.)

With that said, I don't think the A.T.P. are actively trying to hide the gay players, and it's the players' business to decide if they want to come out or not. It is kind of interesting how the girls in the W.T.A. have been way more forthcoming about it; obviously the fact that Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova were there to kind of pave the way for the girls helped, and I agree with the threadstarter in that it would be really awesome if one of the top guys in the A.T.P. did come out, because it would really open the door. Tilden doesn't really count, considering he wasn't nowhere near as famous for "being gay" as King and Martina were/are.


Of course there’s a double standard when it comes to the "Who's Gay" thread compared to "Blanks GF" threads, which are pretty, much all over the place. I think both are valid threads. We're all tennis fans here so discussing players personal life will natural come up. So that does entail how hot a player’s gf is and who's gay. IMO the majority of people who think these threads are silly have no interest in relating to a gay athlete or having one as a role model. Gay kids and people in general need someone to look up to.

Sjengster
02-25-2006, 02:23 AM
Your penultimate sentence is true Oddjob, certainly of me.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:25 AM
Yes there is a double standard..because the assumption is that all the men on the ATP tour are straight. But we know with the WTA there are so many players that open about their lesbianism and they out and proud. People love Amelie for her courage..they applaud it. I think the same thing could happen on the ATP tour..f a gay male player came out...I think there would be some media attention and that would be good.....

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:25 AM
Male players dont out themselves because its more acceptable in society for women to be lesbians than it is for men to be gay.
Its especially male athletes who dont out themselves because there is a macho aspect to males playing sport, and therefore others may think less of a gay athlete.

This is true.

Males, on the whole, think more about sex than they do about food (sometimes). You've all heard of locker room talk, right? One guy starts a conversation about the hot chick he met/had a date with/screwed last night. Another guy responds to the first guy's tale with one of equal or greater intensity. Pretty soon, the whole locker room is embroiled in this "male bonding" thing. Now, imagine if a gay male were listening to this conversation. He certainly would be out of his depth.

As I said before, a man's sexual orientation is linked very closely with his identity; even a gay male knows this. Which goes a long way to explain why some remain "in". Although more women are coming out-and are enjoying immense success with the public in doing so-I don't hold much hope of a man enjoying a similar following.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:28 AM
IMO the majority of people who think these threads are silly have no interest in relating to a gay athlete or having one as a role model.

I don't agree. Instead, I will say that the starters of such threads aren't interested in relating to a gay athlete-only in the knowledge that he could/would be gay. If you've checked the content of those threads, you'd conclude that many of them are gossipy in tone.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:33 AM
I do think its true that a lot of men interestingly enough we connect through the discussion of sex. I know what it felt like to be in high school in the boys change room and all I could think about were all the hot guys in their underwear...and I remember listening to them talk so graphically about sex. But i didn't believe them I felt they were lying like trying to impress one another. This is what I find with a lot of men gay or straight..we talk up the sex talk to appear as studs...but I also think there is pressure by other men to conform. Even gay men we feel it too..to conform to be macho to not be emotional..that's what I love about Federer that he is so emotional that he's not afraid to cry to let his guard down..to show his feelings and emotions...It shatters a stereotype about the macho athlete..Federer is a great athlete and he's not macho...

LoveFifteen
02-25-2006, 02:33 AM
It's hard to come out. It's scary.

You can't get angry at a gay tennis player for not coming out. You should only get angry at a world where people have to hide their sexuality because they are afraid.

OddJob
02-25-2006, 02:36 AM
I don't agree. Instead, I will say that the starters of such threads aren't interested in relating to a gay athlete-only in the knowledge that he could/would be gay. If you've checked the content of those threads, you'd conclude that many of them are gossipy in tone.


Of course they are gossipy because it's all speculation. But it still doesn't make the question of who's gay any less valid. I've checked out a few of those "who’s gay" threads and I still stand by what I said about those who feel it's a silly subject. Yes a lot of those who started the threads weren't doing it to find a gay role model but a lot of people are esp when it comes to male athletes.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:38 AM
This is what I think I don't think people are saying a gay male tennis player should have a press conference and come out of the closet or something. I think thats a bit extreme. All I am saying is don't hide it. I recall watching the Master's Cup I don't remember who..but a top male player was in the stands..sitting next to another guy and he had his arm around the other's guy's shoulder...

Fee
02-25-2006, 02:39 AM
...that's what I love about Federer that he is so emotional that he's not afraid to cry to let his guard down..to show his feelings and emotions...It shatters a stereotype about the macho athlete..Federer is a great athlete and he's not macho...

You are starting to sound a bit fanboyish about Federer. So he teared up at Wimbledon and the AO. Andy did it when he won the USO, Pete did it when he won Wimbly and had his retirement ceremony, Michael Jordan on many occasions. Any number of male athletes at the Olympics in the last two weeks have cried publicly. That doesn't mean anything.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:39 AM
Well I haven't started any threads, and I'd like to relate! Perhaps the threads are just started by the wrong people...

Perhaps.

Of course they are gossipy because it's all speculation. But it still doesn't make the question of who's gay any less valid. I've checked out a few of those "who’s gay" threads and I still stand by what I said about those who feel it's a silly subject. Yes a lot of those who started the threads weren't doing it to find a gay role model but I a lot of people are esp when it comes to male athletes.

And that's fine, but no meaningful discussion arose from that for the reasons you stated.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:40 AM
This is what I think I don't think people are saying a gay male tennis player should have a press conference and come out of the closet or something. I think thats a bit extreme. All I am saying is don't hide it. I recall watching the Master's Cup I don't remember who..but a top male player was in the stands..sitting next to another guy and he had his arm around the other's guy's shoulder...

OK....

OddJob
02-25-2006, 02:42 AM
And that's fine, but no meaningful discussion arose from that for the reasons you stated.


That can be said for 99.9% of posts on here. ;)

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:44 AM
That can be said for 99.9% of posts on here. ;)

Of course.

Haute
02-25-2006, 02:46 AM
Your points are eloquently put, but you are being very unrealistic. How many Hollywood actors are out of closet? How many professional baseball players? How many politicians? How many CEOs? Tennis is no different, and maybe it shouldn't be. Gay men who choose not to publicize their sexual preference to whole world are not pussies. They are private. And there's REALLY nothing wrong with THAT!

Who was it, the governor of New Jersey, who resigned from office a few years ago after having had to admit he had an affair with a man? There are a lot more social hang ups that prevent more men in any profession from being open about their sexuality.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:48 AM
Who was it, the governor of New Jersey, who resigned from office a few years ago after having had to admit he had an affair with a man? There are a lot more social hang ups that prevent more men in any profession from being open about their sexuality.

Social hangups like society's overall perceptions about manhood?

Haute
02-25-2006, 02:53 AM
Pretty much. Look at Schwartzeneggar's comments too about 'girlie men' last year, demonstrates tremendous lack of respect on his part, and the sad thing is that it's not just him. Even with the women it hasn't been easy for them to be open about their sexuality, not at first at least. Remember all the catty comments made by players on the WTA about Mauresmo early in her career? When you have people like these, it gives more reasons for someone to stay in the closet.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 03:00 AM
Yet look at Amelie's courage she stood tall and had class and Hingis looked really foolish. And when Hingis played the French Opent the french people turned on her..they just didn't respect her.. Amelie has opened the door..now Renee Stubbs came out to The AGE newspaper in Australia and talked about her romance with Lisa Raymond..although they broke up..and are no longer doubles partners..either..but anyhow, by coming out Amelie put a face to a talented young gay athlete..and now she's making millions in endorsements...she has a lot of contracts..People just love her...I think the ATP tour..could at least be less homophobic...I mean due to Kinsey the fact remains there has got to be at least 1 gay guy in the top 10 and about 10 in the top hundred...

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 03:02 AM
I think the ATP tour..could at least be less homophobic...I mean due to Kinsey the fact remains there has got to be at least 1 gay guy in the top 10 and about 10 in the top hundred...

I don't think the ATP is being the guardian of player images like we believe them to be. Instead, I venture to say it's the commentating done throughout the matches we see that promotes the perceptions or misperceptions. In short, if you want to assign any responsibility for this trend, blame ESPN.

Haute
02-25-2006, 03:05 AM
Take it a step further than that and say world media outlets, because it's not a problem of perceptions just in the US.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 03:08 AM
I don't profess to remember the exact contents of such threads - don't even remember if I've viewed one or not - but it's quite possible that a lot of what comes off as meaningless gossip to some could be pretty meaningful for others. I agree that gossip for the most part is pointless, but I'm sure there are people trying to find something in a player that they can relate to or have in common. Just like the way I relate more to Michelle Kwan than I do Sacha Cohen, because Michelle Kwan is an Asian-American from California like myself.

And sorry for the stereotypically gay figure-skating analogy, but hey, the Olympics are on! :devil:

Well.....going back to what we just said....most men are inherently too macho to acknowledge being gay (if they are). And for those who aren't, there is the risk of coming off as judgmental and homophobic toward ones who are.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 03:13 AM
Tradition may play a big role in why gay athletes on the ATP tour are not coming out. I'll just paraphrase the thoughts of other posters on this: when one sees images of tradition man-woman families splattered across the screen, it doesn't offer much hope for him in terms of coming out. Secondly, when the society in which one lives and works is perhaps homophobic, then it's hard as well. Add to that the traditional ways in which males are socialized, and you understand why a gay male athlete would hesitate in revealing his sexual preference.

Haute
02-25-2006, 03:15 AM
I don't profess to remember the exact contents of such threads - don't even remember if I've viewed one or not - but it's quite possible that a lot of what comes off as meaningless gossip to some could be pretty meaningful for others. I agree that gossip for the most part is pointless, but I'm sure there are people trying to find something in a player that they can relate to or have in common. Just like the way I relate more to Michelle Kwan than I do Sascha Cohen, because Michelle Kwan is an Asian-American from California like myself.

And sorry for the stereotypically gay figure-skating analogy, but hey, the Olympics are on! :devil:

Speaking of figure-skating, look at Johnny Weir and how even he hasn't openly said that he's gay, although it's clear that he is.

Haute
02-25-2006, 03:25 AM
And you'd think that'd be the one sport where people could be the most open about their sexuality, but apparently not. :shrug:

Eclectic Goddess
02-25-2006, 06:30 AM
Wow, a thread about gay tennis players that isn't filled with blatantly homophobic backlash, silly sexual references, or name calling. I'm impressed. *pats everyone on the back*

Of course, I'd love to see a tennis player come out of the closet, not only because I think it could be a great catalyst for change, but also because it's a terrible thing to have to pretend to be something you're not in order to be a little more acceptable to mainstream media. (And, of course, despite being a hetero woman, I just LOVE gay men. Just check out the signature!)

That said, I understand why any gay tennis players currently on the circuit would be loathe to put themselves in that sort of spotlight. All theories about professional athletes needing to macho aside, there are any number of reasons that coming out could hurt a player, not only personally, but professionally, too. Keep in mind that the tour covers almost every corner of the globe, including some places where it is not only unacceptable to be gay, but illegal. Think of the sponsors who would not hesitate to drop players if it meant avoiding a bigger backlash from the religious right. Finally, remember that many tennis players go on to become coaches or teaching pros after retirement, and ask yourself honestly how many parents would be willing to send their young sons off to a tennis camp run by an openly gay man.

It's horrible and sad, I know, but it's the truth.

Allez
02-25-2006, 10:22 AM
Gee no one has any obligation to announce their sexuality to you. If you are gay, then fine, why do you want to know if this or that tennis player is also gay ? Are you that insecure about who you are that you need validation from others ? Surely you're a tennis fan because you love the sport...or do you ? Perhaps you just want to see young handsome guys you can fantasise ad gossip about and you're frustrated because these players won't give you that satisfaction. I know the player you're talking about and I can assure you he is not gay. See you're the one putting people into boxes. Just because the player in question had his hand on the rail, behind the other guy does not make him gay. You wish he was!!! He did not have his arm around the other person, and even if he had, why should that make him gay ? Gay tennis players owe you nothing. They'll come out when they want to or they won't and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's their choice. They do not live for you. Don't blame the ATP for what is essentially an individual choice.

suertelina
02-25-2006, 10:35 AM
It's horrible and sad, I know, but it's the truth.

I agree with you. And it's really stupid and intolerant. I think it's easier for the women even the situation is difficult too, Amélie mauresmo is an exemple, people think about Amélie like a great tennis player and a nice girl and not about his sexuality I think. But the image of macho men in the sport is the main problem.


(sorry for my poor english...)

Winston's Human
02-25-2006, 11:54 AM
Who was it, the governor of New Jersey, who resigned from office a few years ago after having had to admit he had an affair with a man? There are a lot more social hang ups that prevent more men in any profession from being open about their sexuality.

The New Jersey governor used his sexuality and discrimination as a sympathy excuse to resign when the real scandal was that he was up to his neck in corruption and he appointed his friend to a position for which he had no qualifications.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 01:24 PM
But the image of macho men in the sport is the main problem.




Bingo!

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 02:10 PM
I guess the women have more courage then the men. Amelie Mauresmo she encountered lesbophobia when she came out. Hingis and Davenport made some crude comments..but in the end they both looked foolish. And Lindsay apologized writing a letter to Amelie saying the press misconstrued her comments. I don't think Lindsay is homophobic and I think most of the WTA is accepting of lesbians. I mean, Renee Stubbs is out, Lisa Raymond was her ex girlfriend, Conchita Martinez is out, so is Gigi Fernanadez, and Jana Novotna, Hana Mandlikova live together, and then King and Navratilova. I think though with Martina and Billie Jean just to be out there..someone had to open the door for social change and they did. Its not fair that gay people we have to sometimes still hide who we really love or who we really are. Being gay is more then just about sex. Its about being whole and being treated like a human being.
I respect Amelie Mauresmo because I like her attitude that its no big deal that's she gay..so why can't she kiss her girlfriend after winning a big tennis match Or why can't she be open about it because she is. In France, the French media love Amelie she's constantly discussed in the French press..and they don't mind that she is a lesbian. But I so sometimes wonder let's say if one of more of the French male tennis players were gay..would the French media be as open minded? I do think since men control society and since society is still patriarchial..that lesbianism isn't a threat to men. I just think for some men they see lesbianism as something "sexy" or they don't take it seriously. I mean visit any video store there are tons of girl on girl movies. But I think straight men don't like gay men..because it some how challenges their masculinity...
they don't like to see men also be emotional or sensitive or deviate from the so called gendered role. I think men place a lot of pressure on other males to conform to a kind of hyper masculinty. Its like men we put down other men..that just want to be themselves...

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 02:49 PM
Its not fair that gay people we have to sometimes still hide who we really love or who we really are. Being gay is more then just about sex. Its about being whole and being treated like a human being.

But I so sometimes wonder let's say if one of more of the French male tennis players were gay..would the French media be as open minded? I do think since men control society and since society is still patriarchial..that lesbianism isn't a threat to men.

But I think straight men don't like gay men..because it some how challenges their masculinity...

they don't like to see men also be emotional or sensitive or deviate from the so called gendered role. I think men place a lot of pressure on other males to conform to a kind of hyper masculinty. Its like men we put down other men..that just want to be themselves...

Very good points....and very true. For those reasons, an ATP player who is gay would never come out. Furthermore, not only would such a revelation present a moral dilemma for him; he would also have to consider his livelihood and physical well-being, as there is the possibility of physical and emotional harm from other, less understanding and enlightened, players.

Raquel
02-25-2006, 03:16 PM
But I do believe the ATP tour promotes heterosexuality. I read a lot and see TV and all they talk about is which heterosexual player is married or had a child.
Until a high profile player announces he is gay, how can they promote homosexuality in the game though? You say "all they talk about is which heterosexual player is married" but "they" is not the ATP, "they" is just the commentators commenting on who comes up on screen. If Bec Hewitt comes up on screen, the commentator's obviously going to say it's Lleyton's wife. I don't think that's the commentator actively promoting heterosexuality - he/she are just informing the viewers of what they are seeing on TV.

The ATP tries to push Roddick and Hewitt a lot..and I find both of them distasteful..and annoying. I like Federer he and Nadal are perfect in every way. They are attractive, young, fit, nice personalities. Federer is so emotional its so rare to see a man so emotional in sports. He is a breath of fresh air.
The ATP pushes Federer and Nadal a lot too. They are the top two in the world. Are you saying the ATP pushes Andy and Lleyton because they are known straight men? I don't think that's the case. They are both former world number 1's and high profile. It makes sense to promote them. They just happen to be straight.

You say Roddick and Hewitt are distasteful. Let's say hypothetically, Roddick announced he was gay. Would he still be the positive role model you yearn to see on the tour? Or would it just be a big disappointment that he wasn't more like the gay role model you wanted?

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 03:23 PM
No even if Andy Roddick was gay I just don't like his attitude. He has an attitude problem and so does Hewitt..I think the gay figure skater Johnny Weir its great he's comfortable being gay..but even he can be annoying at times. I can't believe he blamed missing a bus...to not winning a medal at the Olympics....People like Amelie Mauresmo because she has an amazing attitude..she doesn't push her sexuality in people's faces..she doesn't talk about being a lesbian a lot..but she doesn't hide that she is a lesbian either..that's what I find so refreshing about Amelie is that she is a lesbian..tennis superstar...its great having a gay tennis player..at the top elite of tennis..I do think a male tennis player will come out..and I bet he won't be an American player because the USA is really anti gay it seems...I bet the first ATP player to come out will be a European player...

Santorofan
02-25-2006, 03:28 PM
Why is the ATP tour trying to hide the gay men? I notice when I watch tennis matches the ESPN 2 commentators always talk about Tim Henman and his wife having a child, or at the US OPEN they talk about Agassi and his two children. Or they will talk about Roddick and his various women..or about Federer's girlfriend or Haas women. Yet I wonder why is this heterosexuality thrown into my face? Why can't the ATP have the courage that the WTA has.? Everyone knows that Australian Open champion Amelie Mauresmo is a lesbian and an out and proud lesbian. We know that Renee Stubbs just outed herself in the Australian newspaper The AGE at the Australian open.We also know that Renee's ex girlfriend and doubles partner is Lisa Raymond. Conchita Martinez and Gigi Fernandez used to be a couple. Hana Mandlikova and Jana Novotna have a house together in Belgium. Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova are out and proud lesbians. Yet where are the gay men? Am I supposed to believe only one gay man ever existed in tennis the openly gay 1920s tennis champion Bill Tilden? Tennis is an individual sport..so there is no reason why a male tennis player should hide his homosexuality. And where are the gay male athletes as role models? Sheryl Swoopes had the guts to declare she is a lesbian and she's a superstar WNBA player. I think the time has come that the gay men on the ATP tour come out....

Jordanjames:

I think you mean well and I understand your point completely, but much of what you write comes off as rather naive and unrealistic. You keep comparing the men's and women's tour yet clearly have little idea that you are essentially comparing apples and oranges in many ways. Like it or not, society as a whole deals with male and female issues in a far different manner..perhaps not 100% different, but still quite a bit. Some of what you have written seems directly out of a Gay Identity 101 course book that relentlessly preaches time and again that all gay people have to do is "come out, come out, come out" and soon enough the world will be a veritable homo-Disneyland for all involved...not so! You also do not take cultural issues into account either when discussing the issue, i.e., that your poster child for the cause Mauresmo comes from France is hardly an inncidental, as it is an extremely tolerant society in many ways, far more that 99.5% of the nations in the world. Further, common sense would tell anyone not looking at the issue through an ideological lense that for any guy on the ATP tour - let alone NCAA - that makes some kind of public service announcement is going to have to put up with - at the very least - a hell of a lot of distraction as an athlete attempting to focus on their sport. But by assuming that even if a male player did as you state and came out "of the closet," this would change the world and what it thinks about issues of male sexuality..well that is also a pretty green claim to make.

Bottom line, don't let queer theory and western pop culture (Brokeback Mountain!), insulate you from basic everyday realities. No offense, but I don't think you're looking at the "big picture" so to speak, and that is what's lacking from your assorted posts on the thread...

Allez
02-25-2006, 03:32 PM
Excellent post Santorofan!

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 03:38 PM
I agree that society views lesbians and gay men differently. However, lesbians still face discrimination in relation to their sexuality and their gender. Martina Navratilova lost many endorsements in the 1980s because she came out. The media made a big circus about Billie Jean King being a lesbian and she was married in 1981 and had a husband and children. So, I don't think lesbians have it easier. My perspective..is look how society has evolved. Because of Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova lesbian tennis players have it a lot easier and things are a lot more comfortable. Amelie never lost any endrosements because she is a lesbian. And the WTA does try to muzzle its lesbian tennis stars to keep quiet about their lesbianism. But someone has to have the guts to have the courage to be the first? Look at Renee Stubbs she came out to a major Australian newspaper..that takes a lot of courage on her part. So just because lesbian tennis players are women I still applaud these women for having the GUTS to live their LIVES AS THEY CHOOSE. I applaud Sheryl Swoopes..who happens to be a black American woman and she declared she was gay. Now I think she had tremendous courage..being a black lesbian and coming out..knowing how homophobic a lot of black Americans are. Yet Sheryl got a lot of respect and praise for declaring she was a lesbian. Sheryl showed that yes a lesbian can be a three time Olympic champion and WNBA champion.

vogus
02-25-2006, 03:44 PM
There are no gays on the ATP tour. Only the fans are gays. So it is not an issue.

Allez
02-25-2006, 03:48 PM
I applaud gay tennis players who do not succumb to pressure from gay fans by "outing" themselves. I applaud them for simply playing tennis and not feeling the need to satisfy some gay fans' curiosity about their private lives.

spotsyboy
02-25-2006, 03:50 PM
This really is one of the more thought-provoking and intelligent discussions on this topic i've seen on the boards! Good job not spoiling this thread!
Anyhoo, on to the topic at hand. Does anyone think that endorsements/money has a great deal to do with it? It seems that so much of the world we live in nowadays is fueled by and reduced to the almighty dollar. In spite of the endorsements that Navratilova lost (when she came out in the 80's) and that Mauresmo DIDN'T seem to lose, do you think it means something different to the male players?

By the way, i thought it was pretty lame the way the ESPN commentators alluded to Hrbaty's inclinations/orientations at the AO because of that crazy shirt.......if all it takes is a shirt to induce suggestions of girly, feminine inclinations, then.....how would they treat a player who actually WAS out....

Wouldnt it be great to live in a world where none of this mattered and this thread topic never would have ceased to exist?

Allez
02-25-2006, 03:54 PM
It would be great to live in a world where people did not care what others do behind closed doors.

SwissMister1
02-25-2006, 03:55 PM
Players have to do enough press conferences and media committments as it is...how many more press conferences and questions would a player have to put up with if he came out as gay? Too much of a distraction, I don't think any player would want to have to deal with that.

That is why Courier hasn't come out in all these years ;)

Allez
02-25-2006, 04:02 PM
Absolutely and you would have som gay people accusing those players for not doing anough for gay rights etc etc. Too much distraction and what reward is there for "coming out" ?

Allez
02-25-2006, 05:11 PM
I think gay players are setting an example for everyone including straight players to seperate their private lives from their public personas. I don't want to read about Hewitt's heterosexualityany more than I want to read about some other players homosexuality. It's their private life. It isn't mine. I have my own life to live. I hope no gay player ever comes out as I would hate to see them destroyed by the media, the religious right, the homophobic bigots and plain sicko fans who want nothing than to fantasise and gossip about them. I'm a big fan of Amelies and I applaud her for what she has done in tennis. If she is quite content with being out, then I'm happy for her. Whatever makes her happy. I'm equally supportive of those players who are quite happy to stay in the closet as it were.

Jordanjames
02-25-2006, 05:56 PM
But ask this question. If society is supposed to be progressive since it is the 21st century why are so many gay male athletes in the closet? If society is so openminded why is there the silence. Tennis isn't the NBA or baseball of football or soccer..its not a team sport..its the individual for himself. Silence speaks louder than words. If you look at the WTA there are so many outstanding and open minded lesbian tennis superstars that are out and proud. And no they are not putting their lesbianism in people's faces. However, gay people we have a right to live openly just like heterosexuals. And I do see Amelie Mauresmo as a role model..she is around my age she is young she is talented and she proves you can be openly gay and still be a success. What Amelie is doing is tremendous she shows a positive face and a positive role model for young people and for society in general. Amelie has not lost any endrosements in fact she is far more richer now and making even more money. And winning the Australian Open puts her at a higher elite level as a champion. And an openly gay tennis champion. And although there are gender differences between men and women I still applaud all the lesbian women that had the guts to be brave and to live their lives openly. That's where society should be where being gay isn't a big deal..where a tennis player can have a partner in the stands of a tennis match..and no one bats an eye. I think we are there now with women tennis players...but not even close to being there with the men. The ATP closet is a perfect example at the power of homophoibia and patriarchy...The ATP tour doesn't provide an environment that would be condusive to a man coming out of the closet. Because men on the ATP tour have this macho posturing going on...But you wonder..what it must be like to be closeted on the ATP tour..how would a player meet guys to get a date? How would he meet men? He would probably have to sneek off into the night or something..just to be comfortable...or he would have to repress him sexuality or pretend to be straight or he would have to listen to homophobic straight players talk about their straight sex lives while he sits in silence...I think that is the part that is sad..

ezekiel
02-25-2006, 06:18 PM
if you are gay , shouldn't you be concerned with hangings for gays in Iran instead of this frivolous debate? :shrug:

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 08:12 PM
The ATP closet is a perfect example at the power of homophoibia and patriarchy...The ATP tour doesn't provide an environment that would be condusive to a man coming out of the closet. Because men on the ATP tour have this macho posturing going on...But you wonder..what it must be like to be closeted on the ATP tour..how would a player meet guys to get a date? How would he meet men? He would probably have to sneek off into the night or something..just to be comfortable...or he would have to repress him sexuality or pretend to be straight or he would have to listen to homophobic straight players talk about their straight sex lives while he sits in silence...I think that is the part that is sad..

The ATP this...the ATP that....I don't think it's the ATP who is responsible for image control among its players. The players are responsible for themselves. The media is the agent toward which you should direct your concern, not the ATP.

Eclectic Goddess
02-25-2006, 08:30 PM
The ATP this...the ATP that....I don't think it's the ATP who is responsible for image control among its players. The players are responsible for themselves. The media is the agent toward which you should direct your concern, not the ATP.
I agree that the fault is not exclusively the ATP's, but I don't think the media is entirely to blame, either. The media is merely a symptom of the overlying problem, namely the rampant homophobia that exists throughout the world, in almost every culture and society. The media merely reflects what it thinks the majority of people want to see.

As ezekiel was eager to point out, there are places where being gay can get you killed, legally and without any public backlash.

That said, of course the ATP packages certain players to be more accepted by the media. They DO create characters out of real people, in obvious and subtle ways, whether by focusing on someone's "bad boy" behavior, or by constantly reminding us that someone is a "family man". Would they ask a gay player not to come out for fear that it would hurt the entire organization? I can beleive it. I hope it wouldn't happen, but who's to say that it couldn't?

The reasons for any man not to announce himself as gay are way too complex to point fingers in any one direction, let alone a professional athlete.

sigmagirl91
02-25-2006, 08:43 PM
I agree that the fault is not exclusively the ATP's, but I don't think the media is entirely to blame, either. The media is merely a symptom of the overlying problem, namely the rampant homophobia that exists throughout the world, in almost every culture and society. The media merely reflects what it thinks the majority of people want to see.

As ezekiel was eager to point out, there are places where being gay can get you killed, legally and without any public backlash.

That said, of course the ATP packages certain players to be more accepted by the media. They DO create characters out of real people, in obvious and subtle ways, whether by focusing on someone's "bad boy" behavior, or by constantly reminding us that someone is a "family man". Would they ask a gay player not to come out for fear that it would hurt the entire organization? I can beleive it. I hope it wouldn't happen, but who's to say that it couldn't?

The reasons for any man not to announce himself as gay are way too complex to point fingers in any one direction, let alone a professional athlete.

Again, I say...the ATP does not assume the responsibility for the players' images, nor do they feel they have to. They're in existence to make money, and if anyone thinks, for one moment, they're prepared to take a hit financially because a player decides to come out? Think again. As fragile as men's egos are, and as dogged as they are about keeping their feelings and emotions in close check, I doubt very seriously any male player would risk it-not for themselves and not for the organization they work for.

ezekiel
02-26-2006, 01:47 AM
Of course! Same as I'm concerned about global warming, overopopulation, and globalization. But all that's discussed on different boards. This is a tennis board. :devil:

and this is for tennis board? :confused:
If you care about gay rights or human rights at all as you and some others here insinuate, then what are you doing about gays being lynched and hanged in Iran?

OddJob
02-26-2006, 02:12 AM
and this is for tennis board? :confused:
If you care about gay rights or human rights at all as you and some others here insinuate, then what are you doing about gays being lynched and hanged in Iran?


:topic: We're talking about Gay men on the ATP Tour not lynching in Iran. Since u seem concerned with such things U should do something about it or start a thread in non-tennis. Now back to the topic at hand......

sigmagirl91
02-26-2006, 02:13 AM
:topic: We're talking about Gay men on the ATP Tour not lynching in Iran. Since u seem with such things U should do something about it or start a thread in non-tennis. Now back to the topic at hand......

I think you missed the entire point. Ezekiel was talking about gays who are being lynched in Iran for being..erm...gay. That particular point is relevant to the discussion at hand.

OddJob
02-26-2006, 02:17 AM
I think you missed the entire point. Ezekiel was talking about gays who are being lynched in Iran for being..erm...gay. That particular point is relevant to the discussion at hand.


Yes that would be relevant in a "Iran Gay Lynching" thread. Ezekiel didn't bring that up to relate to the topic at hand, hence it's off topic.

Haute
02-26-2006, 03:52 AM
That said, I understand why any gay tennis players currently on the circuit would be loathe to put themselves in that sort of spotlight. All theories about professional athletes needing to macho aside, there are any number of reasons that coming out could hurt a player, not only personally, but professionally, too. Keep in mind that the tour covers almost every corner of the globe, including some places where it is not only unacceptable to be gay, but illegal. Think of the sponsors who would not hesitate to drop players if it meant avoiding a bigger backlash from the religious right. Finally, remember that many tennis players go on to become coaches or teaching pros after retirement, and ask yourself honestly how many parents would be willing to send their young sons off to a tennis camp run by an openly gay man.

It's horrible and sad, I know, but it's the truth.

Do you know if with that's been true with Amelie, Navratilova, etc.? About sponsorships and tournaments refusing to let them play there?

Jordanjames
02-26-2006, 04:12 AM
People keep on saying being gay is a "private matter" or its "no big deal" or why can't gay people just be "quiet." The ATP tour definitely markets certain people to appeal to the public. I am not saying the ATP tour would force a player to stay in the closet but I am sure the ATP tour wouldn't like it. I mean look at Hrbaty the guy is clearly straight yet all he wore was a pink shirt with the peek a boo cut outs in the back..and the male tennis commentators were so ludicrous in their statements of the shirt there was a lot of hostility about it. I recall Hewitt saying he couldn't "lose to a bloke that wore a shirt like that." What I don't understand is why do the straight men on the ATP tour have this fear of gay men? Or why do straight men have a fear of gay men in general? If some gay male tennis pros came out...I wonder if he would be respected by his peers? I mean I am sure things are already going on behind closed doors on the ATP tour in hotels across the globe anyhow...but its in the closet...unlike the WTA which is a much more progressive place..where a woman can be herself..and be out and proud....and this took place because of groundbreaking feminists such as Martina Navaratilova and Billie Jean King. King people must remember beat that misogynst back in 1973..and that was a breakthrough for women in sports. So King and Navratilova are strong feminists and clearly strong women...that although the media tried to bring them down when they came out as lesbians...in fact..they just got stronger..and they showed that a person can be a gay athlete, a good citizen, an activist..and a good person and contribute to society. And I respect them for all their hard work they have done for gay human rights...Martina and Billie Jean showed that being a gay athlete doesn't mean you can't be popular or make social change...

Federerthebest
02-26-2006, 04:14 AM
maybe there aren't any gay players on the atp tour :confused:

~EMiLiTA~
02-26-2006, 04:41 AM
maybe there aren't any gay players on the atp tour :confused:

there are.

Jordanjames
02-26-2006, 04:51 AM
I think the WTA is more progessive because of the activism of Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova. Billie Jean King started up the WTA tour back in 1970...and she hasn't looked back since. Because of Billie and Martina they trancended the whole notion of the lesbian athlete..and are respected as athletes, as feminists, as gay activists, and as civil rights leaders...Martina and Billie Jean broke the door of homophobia down....

Martina and Billie Jean King aren't just tennis champions or gay actvists they are role models and they are civil rights activists. They paved the road for people like Conchita Martinez, and Amelie Mauresmo...that they could be free and open about themselves..and not lose endorsements..It would take a very strong man...to be out and proud...maybe one day it will happen....

Allez
02-26-2006, 06:15 AM
Please how do you know that men on the ATP are afraid of gay men ? Just because no one (of your liking) has come out does not mean they are being pressured to stay in the closet by other players. Perhaps they like being in the closet and isn't it nice that they have the freedom to do so ? And yes, being gay or straight is a PRIVATE issue. It's none of anyone's business. If people want to talk about it, then fine, but it is equally fine if they do not wish to tak about it. It's their choice and it doesn't make them cowards like you're implying if the CHOOSE to stay in the closet. And what's this issue about the ATP pushing heterosexuality ? You say you don't wanna hear about wives and kids, yet you want to see a gay player kissing their boyfriend at the stands. Double standards. AND in case you haven't noticed there is a worldwide push for gay marriages/partnerships and more gay couples are able to adopt kids. The image of two gay partners with kids isn't any less a family picture than Agassi, Steffi and their kids. Why are you perpetuating the "family" stereotype by implying that only a straight married couple can be viewed as family ? Anyway, I think it's nice that players keep their private lives private. It's none of YOUR business. It is not gay players job to "break the door of homophobia down". If that is YOUR calling, then feel free to pursue it. They simply want to play tennis and should be respected for that and not be called cowards because they are exercising their right of keeping their private lives PRIVATE.

Truc
02-26-2006, 06:44 AM
Do you know if with that's been true with Amelie, Navratilova, etc.? About sponsorships and tournaments refusing to let them play there?Navratilova had some problems with her sponsors after her coming out, but not Mauresmo.
On the contrary, Mauresmo always says she got a lot of support from her sponsors, congratulation letters, etc. (But it's not surprising, it made her famous and popular.)

Dexter_1986
02-26-2006, 06:58 AM
OMG... Another 'who is gay' thread :spit:

sigmagirl91
02-26-2006, 07:04 AM
OMG... Another 'who is gay' thread :spit:

No, this is not. If you read some more, you will find that no one has dropped any names. Instead, the conversation has been more mature and thought-provoking.

sigmagirl91
02-26-2006, 07:08 AM
People keep on saying being gay is a "private matter" or its "no big deal" or why can't gay people just be "quiet." The ATP tour definitely markets certain people to appeal to the public. I am not saying the ATP tour would force a player to stay in the closet but I am sure the ATP tour wouldn't like it. I mean look at Hrbaty the guy is clearly straight yet all he wore was a pink shirt with the peek a boo cut outs in the back..and the male tennis commentators were so ludicrous in their statements of the shirt there was a lot of hostility about it. I recall Hewitt saying he couldn't "lose to a bloke that wore a shirt like that." What I don't understand is why do the straight men on the ATP tour have this fear of gay men? Or why do straight men have a fear of gay men in general? If some gay male tennis pros came out...I wonder if he would be respected by his peers? I mean I am sure things are already going on behind closed doors on the ATP tour in hotels across the globe anyhow...but its in the closet...unlike the WTA which is a much more progressive place..where a woman can be herself..and be out and proud....and this took place because of groundbreaking feminists such as Martina Navaratilova and Billie Jean King. King people must remember beat that misogynst back in 1973..and that was a breakthrough for women in sports. So King and Navratilova are strong feminists and clearly strong women...that although the media tried to bring them down when they came out as lesbians...in fact..they just got stronger..and they showed that a person can be a gay athlete, a good citizen, an activist..and a good person and contribute to society. And I respect them for all their hard work they have done for gay human rights...Martina and Billie Jean showed that being a gay athlete doesn't mean you can't be popular or make social change...

But it was you who said that patriarchal, homophobic attitudes among many males presented a challenge to someone coming out. Have you changed your position on this, or are you just so desperate for a male player to break ground by coming out? I agree with Allez...no one has an obligation to reveal themselves in this way if he is not ready or willing-and we should respect that choice.

ezekiel
02-26-2006, 07:10 AM
What, the issue of gay players in the ATP doesn't belong on a board about the ATP players? :confused:

And by your continued mentioning of the human rights abuses in Iran your obvious implication is that because I care about gay rights, I have to be doing something concrete about every gay rights abuse case in the world. So should I start in Iran? Or should I go on a tour of all the high schools in the U.S. where bullies are beating up the gay kids? Or Egypt, where a bunch of gay men were put in jail simply for attending a gay nightclub? Can you send me the money for a plane ticket so I can fly to Cairo and chain myself to the nearest fence? :topic: :lol: Please. Although I engage in plenty of local- and state-level activism, whether or not I do so isn't the issue being discussed here. (Your argument reminds me of a person I saw on a messageboard for cooking tips and ideas - some girl talked about how she didn't eat meat for political reasons and the person in question got all up in the girl's face, asking them how many cows they freed lately from the local ranch, and what that girl had done to protest abuses on factory farms. :lol:)

My point is that you're turning the discussion into an argument that isn't there. The issue being discussed is not gay/human rights abuses across the world, it the issues surrounding the possibility of gay ATP players coming out, and if it's hard for some to accept that such a discussion is taking place at a board for ATP players, that's not my problem.

these guys are tennis players and they are not there for anybody to label them . That's why nobody is asking them if they are democrats or republican, their views on social issues etc. It's obvious that there is an extreme gay agenda in play here to label and claim players as their own. But the fact of the matter is that no top players is gay and it just doesn't fit that agenda, does it ?

My original point was that original poster identifies himself with gays more than with tennis players and thus tries to find gay players and when he can't he claims there is repression or something :rolleyes: . My connection was that real life issues that deal with gays is what's happening in Iran , not why there isn't gay tennis players when it's really none of our business in the first place :rolleyes:

SLICK
02-26-2006, 07:44 AM
In England a number of high profile soccer players are on the verge of being outed by a downmarket tabloid. Indeed these players have already been outed on a number of internet forums. I wonder if a similar thing could happen in men's tennis?

sigmagirl91
02-26-2006, 11:07 AM
In England a number of high profile soccer players are on the verge of being outed by a downmarket tabloid. Indeed these players have already been outed on a number of internet forums. I wonder if a similar thing could happen in men's tennis?

I doubt it....and it probably never will happen.

SLICK
02-26-2006, 11:12 AM
Never say Never

sigmagirl91
02-26-2006, 11:14 AM
Never say Never

You're right.....however, I'm not taking it to the bank that a player will be put in a position to come out.

User id 7816
02-26-2006, 02:17 PM
I think the time has come that the gay men on the ATP tour come out....

this is hardly a problem of the ATP players. obviously its a issue concerning the whole society, the 21st century one and who knows in what period of time. you're a jack but probably most of them are ennis, whatever the reasons they have i suppose its only upto each individual to decide how they live.

Jordanjames
02-27-2006, 10:08 PM
I guess it will take a strong personality kind of like Bill Tilden or like a Johnny Weir to be out and proud. Tilden was out about his homosexuality back in the 1920s which was far more oppressive then society is now. Tilden was also a multiple Wimbledon and US OPEN champion and he was the most celebrated and decorated man of his era. Tilden was also openly gay and he didn't care what anyone thought of him..Too bad nowadays the gay men on the ATP tour seem to worry so much about what their peers or the public think instead of being out and proud...At least we got the WTA to thank for showing its okay to be openly gay and be a strong competitive athlete..

helen phillips
02-27-2006, 11:21 PM
So because there are people who feel it'd be nice for sports stars to be able to be open about their identities there's now an "extreme gay agenda"?

Thers isn't a "extreme gay agenda"? I came in here looking to get in touch with the Gay Mafia, so I suppose now you are going to tell me their isn't one of those either. Because I am tired of waiting for a player to come out I was going to suggest to the Gay Mafia that we use our special powers to "turn one". Are you now going to try an tell me we don have special powers to turn heterosexual men gay anymore? We sure did pay a heavy price for gay marriage.

Rogiman
02-27-2006, 11:48 PM
The discussion been mainly devoted to the issues surrounding why gay players haven't come out and the reasons why it'd be beneficial and/or detrimental to the players if they did.
Perhaps I'm being naive and missing the obvious, but what makes you think there are necessarily closeted gay ATP players, is it on statistics alone?

nobama
02-28-2006, 12:09 AM
Really I find when Roger cries its because he's so sensitive. We get to see a man let his guard down to show his emotions to show how he truly feels inside. Its very rare in the media to show male sensitivity. I don't know why people are fearful of emotional men. I remember when Federer's countryman Stephane Lambiel won the silver medal at the Olympics and Stephane was crying. It was so sweet to see that to see Stephane cry to release that emotion. I think more male athletes need to stop this macho posturing and show their emotions...No players should do whatever makes them feel comfortable. And I've seen plenty of male athletes cry, but I don't think it has some deeper meaning and I don't think that guys who don't get emotional are just full of 'macho posturing'.

Btw, last year Roger was asked in an interview (from a brazilian magazine) if he thought he was a metrosexual (like David Beckham) and Roger said he didn't know what that meant. :lol:

binkygirl
02-28-2006, 01:00 AM
Perhaps I'm being naive and missing the obvious, but what makes you think there are necessarily closeted gay ATP players, is it on statistics alone?


Personally, I feel that there are closeted gay players based on what I've seen with my own eyes.

Jordanjames
02-28-2006, 01:02 AM
Since Male sports is homoerotic there is a homoerotic element to it regardless of whether straight men agree or not. In society men are allowed to bond through sports and to engage in homosocial relationships with another that is gender based. If you've noticed a lot of men prefer to be around other males when they watch their favorite sporting event..or sport they like to be alone with each other. And this is indeed homosocial. My opinion is society still doesn't view gay men as masculine. Yet I think when male athletes cry it shows that yes men that are athletic can cry and still be masculine. Just like gay male athletes can be masculine. Another thing I have noticed with men in general is the need to impress other males. And this where I think peer presssure comes into play. If you've noticed athletes tend to have homosocial relationships on tour. And sports I feel has always had a homoerotic aspect to it.
Men go to sports bars, go to friends houses and watch sports and there is a homosocial atmosphere to it. Sports is the only arena where men can receive pleasure from seeing the male body in form. In sports you see men cheering on males that are sweaty in tight shorts, and with strong muscular builds and biceps ect. You will hear and listen to males say they "love" so and so an athlete. There is a devotion of buying baseball cards, or having posters, or buying souveniers of their favourite male athlete. There is indeed a strong current of homoeroticism in sports..because in the sports sphere it is acceptable for men to have homoerotic. Even on this board the comments and the devotion and the "love" men have other male athletes has an element of homoeroticism to it.

sigmagirl91
02-28-2006, 01:23 AM
Another thing I have noticed with men in general is the need to impress other males.

Believe it or not, this same theory applies to women as well. If you don't believe me, sit in a room full of women and hear the gossip fly.

NATAS81
02-28-2006, 01:33 AM
I could point out a few just by looking at the ATP profile pics.

They should keep it to themself or their career is over.

End.

sigmagirl91
02-28-2006, 01:34 AM
I could point out a few just by looking at the ATP profile pics.

They should keep it to themself or their career is over.

End.

Sure.....your gaydar is off the charts, bud. :o

LoveFifteen
02-28-2006, 04:34 AM
There's bound to be a gay player on the ATP tour ... but not necessarily one of the well-known players. Hopefully one day there will be an out-and-proud gay man on the ATP who actually is a threat at Slams. It would be fun!

Jordanjames
02-28-2006, 04:53 AM
There are definitely gay men on the ATP tour. Because the WTA has proven that on a professional tennis tour there are gay tennis players. I would even bet there has to be some in the top but they don't have the courage to come out like Amelie Mauresmo did. The men on the ATP tour play together, they travel together, they train together, eat together, and do so they are constant contact with each other. There is bound to be some strong emotional bonds taking place. Pro tennis is a distinct life on the ATP tour so homosocial relationships are bound to form..and some of these these homosocial relationships turn to homosexual relationships.

Allez
02-28-2006, 06:33 PM
Which players criticised her for being a lesbian or comming out as one ? Davenport and Hingis were merely remarking about her masculinity. You can be masculine without being a lesbian. How on earth could other players be affected by her comming out ? In an ideal world there shouldn't be any pressure either way. I'm shocked that the WTA explicitly expressed such a "preference". Surely that is enough grounds for a multi million dollar law suite ? I hope the ATP are not as daft. If it ever came out that they were actively discouraging players from "comming out" (I hate that phrase), then they would be in a spot of bother don't you think ? Anyway this topic has been covered to death.

partygirl
02-28-2006, 07:12 PM
This is what I think I don't think people are saying a gay male tennis player should have a press conference and come out of the closet or something. I think thats a bit extreme. All I am saying is don't hide it. I recall watching the Master's Cup I don't remember who..but a top male player was in the stands..sitting next to another guy and he had his arm around the other's guy's shoulder...
it was Nadal and i noticed it too

i wanted to say its an interesting topic & i enjoyed reading over the pages of this thread and i read most of it but my head hurts at the moment so i didnt read every sentence.

honestly i wish i had something to add, but i dont so ill shut up...but i will keep reading and return when i have something to add or my head stops pounding.

p.s-
Roddick is a part-time homo...so cut him some slack.:rolls:

Allez
02-28-2006, 07:19 PM
Lastly, I respect the fact that you think this topic's been run ragged, but honestly, if it's such a tired issue for you, one wonders why you're willing to participate in the beating of the dead horse.

Because you won't let the topic just die and I had to comment re Mauresmo as I had no idea the WTA were homophobic after all the praise that other gay dude was giving them :shrug:

partygirl
02-28-2006, 07:22 PM
that other gay dude
may i just politely point out names are posted next to each post for a reason. :)

Allez
02-28-2006, 07:31 PM
may i just politely point out names are posted next to each post for a reason. :)

Why, I believe you have a point...:haha:

partygirl
02-28-2006, 07:44 PM
Why, I believe you have a point...:haha:
it is rare...and more often conviluted...but sometimes yes- i do :devil:

Jordanjames
02-28-2006, 09:05 PM
But due to the courage of lesbians such as Amelie Mauresmo, Renee Stubbs, Conchita Martinez, and many others..it is easier to be openly lesbian on the WTA. No one makes a big deal about it because lesbianism is now acceptable on the WTA tour.
Someone had to take a stand and to speak up about homophobia and these brave women on the WTA did. By contrast, the ATP has a deep closet. Whats perplexing is tennis is an individual sport...there are no ties of a pro to a team or whatever..or to other players..and yet the gay men on the ATP tour..their silence is the problem. And its like why can't someone on the ATP tour have the courage of an Amelie Mauresmo..again..I'm not saying have a press conference...but why hide it? Amelie didn't hide being gay..because there is nothing wrong with being gay..and there is no need to be ashamed of being gay...And Amelie's attitude has helped a lot of young gay people out there...Its her courage..that has attracted fans to Amelie. Sure they love her tennis..but they respect Amelie as a person..a young woman that lives her life on her own terms..and doesn't allow the opressive heterosexuality hold her prisoner... Its frustrating for gay people to see the ATP tour..a tour that clearly has gay male tennis players..and yet the gay men..hide in the closet..yet the WTA is so progressive...

Fee
02-28-2006, 09:17 PM
I dont think the WTA is progressive at all. I think there has been an historical tendency in the US (not sure about other countries) to assume that female athletes in the 'not so pretty' sports like softball and basketball are lesbians. I believe that Babe Diedreksen (sp?) was hounded by this throughout her career decades ago. There are similar jokes about the LPGA floating around these days.

The ATP isn't figure skating. I can tell you, based solely on the relatively minimal exposure I've had to players, that if there are any gay players on the tour they know enough to keep quiet about it because their peers will not be accepting about it. Peer pressure can be a daunting thing, no matter what your age, your personal economic status, or your personal level of success.

fererrodf
02-28-2006, 11:39 PM
I really wish all those ATP players would come out of their closet to show the rest of the world that gays lead a normal life like anyone else. There's nothing to be ashame about.

Jordanjames
03-01-2006, 12:38 AM
I just don't see tennis as very macho. You see attractive young men wearing tight shirts and tight shorts running around and getting all sweaty. I do agree about peer pressure..but tennis in an individual sport...not a team sport...and I think it would be easier to come out and be openly gay and proud on the ATP tour..then say to be in an organized team sport such as hockey,or baseball, football, soccer or basketball. In tennis you also have freedom..you get to travel the entire planet..meet new people..so I think it should be easier to come out in tennis and to be proud and gay. I mean Johnny Weir never actually announced he is gay..but we know that he is. That's what I think is important..I mean since tennis is individual I think some gay ATP pros should be whom they are....and be out and proud....but they don't have to hide it..and they shouldn't hide it..

LoveFifteen
03-01-2006, 01:25 AM
Tennis isn't a team sport, but you're traveling with the ATP all the time. You need friends on the road. Coming out is the surest way to become an outcast in the locker room and players lounge.

Jordanjames
03-01-2006, 01:44 AM
I guess that just goes to show the immaturity of men compared to women then. Because on the WTA tour Amelie has a lot of friends..and they don't care that she is a lesbian. Amelie's gets along with all the women on the WTA tour...No one cares that she is gay. But I sense on the ATP tour straight men probably are immature and probably think gay men might hit on them..which is false....

helen phillips
03-01-2006, 06:13 AM
Well I wouldn't like to lend any credibility to homophobes like Samantha Stevens or Damir Dokic I don't think their is an under representation of lesbians on the women's tour (I'm not saying their is an abundance either). While not all lesbians are out in the manner of Mauresmo others have the status of "open secret" (Lisa Raymond springs to mind) which is no doubt is what the WTA would have preffered Mauresmo do.

It is possible that their are men on the ATP tour whose status is also an "open secret" but given the context I doubt it. Given the relative youth of the tour and it's diverse composition I doubt it would be a very comfortable environment to be gay. Let's face it men find homosexuality a lot more threatening than women particularly if they might be showering with one.

Allez
03-01-2006, 06:31 AM
JordanJames you are repeating yourself and its annoying. If it'sn't frustrating for the players, why should it be frustrating for you ? Answer that question. You talk about courage as if players who do not come out are lacking in courage. The simple truth of the matter is that, if they exist, and I doubt if there are any in the top 30 as most of these have girlfriends and wives, they have chosen not to come out and are perhaps happy with their decision. Instead of calling them cowards, you should respect their decision. Why is this simple logic so hard for you to grasp. And stop inventing words like homosocial. And just because males drink together and watch football and travel together does not mean there are sexual undertones to their relationship. I get that you want to believe that at some level all (handsome and "sweaty") men are gay, but unfortunately for you it's just not true.

HottAsHellHEWITT
03-01-2006, 06:38 AM
Why do you need so desperately for them to come out? It's there choice if they want to come out or not and if they dont wanna let them be. Also why would they want there private lives in the Media? It's no ones business but there own.

helen phillips
03-01-2006, 06:41 AM
I get that you want to believe that at some level all (handsome and "sweaty") men are gay, but unfortunately for you it's just not true.

Are you certain about that? Where are you getting your information? If you don't let the wives and girlfreinds fool you I'll try not to swayed by the overwhelming evidence of depilatory use.

helen phillips
03-01-2006, 06:47 AM
Why do you need so desperately for them to come out?

So we can comfort them through the transition. Do you have a problem with us wanting to support fellow human beings with super hot bodies and lots of money? Is it wrong for us to care about the well being of hot rich men? Cause it it is I just don't want to be right.

tennisvideos
03-01-2006, 08:38 AM
Tennis is merely a microcosm of the world at large. And sadly, many men are still too scared to come out - especially in the world of sports. As others have stated, peer pressure is so strong, just like the pressures of society in the world at large.

Just look at what happened to Mark Woodforde. Now he is supposedly straight - I think he even has a kid or two. (Yes, I know, that means nothing if what experience has shown me). But what I am getting to is that Woodforde was called a fag etc by Thomas Muster during the middle of a match back in the 80s. It was an incredibly low point in the history of our sport.

It just highlights the fact that many guys on the tour are homophobic and the peer pressure must be great. Not only that, but players would be scared of losing sponsorship dollars.

Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if people didn't judge others and everyone was allowed to be - just how they are .... one day maybe ... :)

Speaking of which - I hope many people get to see the wonderful film 'Transgender'. It helps to melt away prejudices and provides a heartfelt look at one of humanity's most judged minority groups.

sigmagirl91
03-01-2006, 10:55 AM
Tennis is merely a microcosm of the world at large. And sadly, many men are still too scared to come out - especially in the world of sports. As others have stated, peer pressure is so strong, just like the pressures of society in the world at large.

Just look at what happened to Mark Woodforde. Now he is supposedly straight - I think he even has a kid or two. (Yes, I know, that means nothing if what experience has shown me). But what I am getting to is that Woodforde was called a fag etc by Thomas Muster during the middle of a match back in the 80s. It was an incredibly low point in the history of our sport.

It just highlights the fact that many guys on the tour are homophobic and the peer pressure must be great. Not only that, but players would be scared of losing sponsorship dollars.

Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if people didn't judge others and everyone was allowed to be - just how they are .... one day maybe ... :)

Speaking of which - I hope many people get to see the wonderful film 'Transgender'. It helps to melt away prejudices and provides a heartfelt look at one of humanity's most judged minority groups.

Four words: it will never happen.

The Pro
03-01-2006, 11:34 AM
Four words: it will never happen.

Holy Optimism Batman!

Saying that, I guess in the tennis world it's less simple as you get players encountering each other in close proximity and it would be harder to ignore scorn.

Plus these players are from all over the world. To stereotype, say Andy Murray came out (hardly llikely if you saw him against Hewitt), he would get support from Tim and presumably Greg, and other liberal players and players from liberal countries.

But what about players from Asia and Africa? Even if you could rely at a stretch that everyone in your neck of the woods understood, then foreign players are still gonna have to be won over. ( I don't mean to be racist, but homosexuality is illegal in most countries on those continents).

That's not even taking the fans worldwide into consideration. Think of the next Davis Cup game, what would a partisan crowd chant?

There's too much to be won over.

partygirl
03-01-2006, 11:53 AM
That's not even taking the fans worldwide into consideration. Think of the next Davis Cup game, what would a partisan crowd chant?

i would hope the world as a whole has more manners and self respect than to go to a tennis match (which has some of the more civilized crowds)
and chant:
"faggot" or something to that effect.
i dont see that happening, really.


but the point is true-
tennis is a international touring sport so you do have to deal with cross cultures and beliefs not that it should matter but it might be an issue.

Denaon
03-01-2006, 02:47 PM
I really wish all those ATP players would come out of their closet to show the rest of the world that gays lead a normal life like anyone else. There's nothing to be ashame about.

I dunno if they must come out, I wish being gay would not be an issue. But I think, in order to get respect (as a human being in the first place without acknowledging anybody's sexuality) you primarily ought to have respect for yourself. That's why I applaud Amelie.
Coming out is often misunderstood as a show of defiance or exhibitionism of a private behaviour. The fact is none of the public figures that have come out had never said anything else about their sexuality but their orientation...if that switchs on or off anybody's mind and that makes them their imagination loose that's a completely different story.
Amelie is a good role model. Lesbians (young or old) have someone to emulate. Someone that has gained respect (she was really critisized at first) and that is successful.
Maybe that's what this thread is all about.

sigmagirl91
03-01-2006, 03:06 PM
Why must a gay player come out? Are some of you who are waiting for that blessed day to happen looking for a role model?

Denaon
03-01-2006, 03:21 PM
Why must a gay player come out? Are some of you who are waiting for that blessed day to happen looking for a role model?
Well, in the first place such an expression as "coming out of the closet" should not exist....
Maybe if every gay would "come out" being gay would not be an issue and would be considered just as "normal" as being straight. IMO, things have several stages during their progress...in this case coming out could be a benefit for evryone...
Btw....role models are always needed...but I would not call that a blessing when they appear..

NATAS81
03-01-2006, 03:23 PM
Why must a gay player come out? Are some of you who are waiting for that blessed day to happen looking for a role model?
You obviously have nothing better to do than troll around on internet forums.

First you attempt to slam people for pinpointing who is gay and saying they should not come out.

Then you try and rag on people who want them to come out.

sigmagirl91
03-01-2006, 05:10 PM
You obviously have nothing better to do than troll around on internet forums.

First you attempt to slam people for pinpointing who is gay and saying they should not come out.

Then you try and rag on people who want them to come out.

Talking in circles again, I see. :rolleyes:

LoveFifteen
03-01-2006, 06:05 PM
Tennis players shouldn't have to come out any more than gay teachers, gay actors, or gay lawyers should. Sometimes coming out can be a serious threat to your job. I was a teacher, and I wouldn't dream of coming out because of the hell that would ensue with religious parents. Tennis players play all over the world, and they might be harrassed constantly by intolerant people.

Jordanjames
03-01-2006, 07:38 PM
Change will only occur when someone takes a stand and says homophobia isn't right. And that's why Amelie Mauresmo, Renee Stubbs and the other out lesbians on the WTA tour are such amazing women and how the gay men on the ATP tour really are cowards...

Horatio Caine
03-01-2006, 07:42 PM
Tennis players shouldn't have to come out any more than gay teachers, gay actors, or gay lawyers should. Sometimes coming out can be a serious threat to your job. I was a teacher, and I wouldn't dream of coming out because of the hell that would ensue with religious parents. Tennis players play all over the world, and they might be harrassed constantly by intolerant people.

I totally agree with that :yeah:

LoveFifteen
03-01-2006, 08:11 PM
I have to admit the word "homosocial" cracked me up ... :lol:

JordanJames, you are being so unfair. You shouldn't blame gay men for not coming out. You shouldn't criticize them for being cowards. You should only grieve for them because they're forced to live in a world where they are rejected, hated and degraded just for who they are.

cincy
03-02-2006, 07:51 PM
Sometimes coming out can be a serious threat to your job.

And to your LIFE!!

TennisAgenda
08-25-2006, 10:01 AM
I guess for straight guys and gals they don't understand why we want to know which male tennis pros are gay. Heterosexuality is splashed in my face every single day of my life. When I turn on the TV, read a newspaper, look at a billboard, go to the mall seeing straights hold hands in public or kiss. Its everywhere. And so is homophobia. If we are to progess as a society the lesbians can't fight this battle alone. Its time for gay men for us to take a stand. The lesbians have done so much in sports. People like Sheryl Swoopes coming out in the WNBA was incredible. People like golfers Patty Sheean and Rosie Jones are role models.


I don't think gay men on the ATP tour have to hold a press conference or do what Lance Bass did and go on the cover of People's magazine. However, I do believe they shouldn't be hiding being gay either. You see being straight doesn't mean shame. Its easy for straights to make jokes and say "oh being gay is no big deal. Or why do people want to talk about sex." Those comments are examples of homophobia. Being gay has a lot more to do then having sex. Being gay means living your life freely and openly gay and not having to worry about judgement and being proud of who you are. I think its so important for gay male athletes to come out. It shatters stereotypes. We know that in a population a certain number of men are gay or bisexual. That's just science and its a fact.



Yet the silence that is the homophobia on the ATP tour means just that. Its the silence that speaks volumes. Even though tennis is an individual sport all those gay men on the ATP are hiding. I am not sure why?
No one is going to harm them physically.

You see straights make jokes about this issue becuase it doesn't matter to them. Heterosexism is everywhere its marketed to us, its broadcast everyday its everywhere.
We wonder because of the imbalance. On the WTA so many out lesbians. I mean Renee Stubbs talked about being gay in an Australian newspaper this year and Lisa Raymond was her ex partner. We got five Wimbledon champions alive that are known to be lesbians, Mauresmo, Martinez, Navratilova, Novotna and King. Doubles specialist Gigi Fernandez used to be Martinez lover. Inez Gorrachategui is a lesbian. And so is Hana Mandlikova. And there are many more.

Some people say "oh the WTA is more accepting of lebsians.But I don';t think it came easy. Martina came out in the 1980s and King was outed by a former lesbian lover. The others though came out on their own. And some like Martinez and Gigi Fernandez didn't hold a press conference or anything but they didn't hide it either. This is what I would like to see. I would love to see some out gay male couples on the ATP tour just watching their partner's matches and not hiding that they are gay.

basil333
08-25-2006, 10:02 AM
novel idea.... maybe the Gay Players on the ATP do NOT want to tell the world their business????

Why the hell should people plaster their sexuality across the media just to satisfy the curiosity of some people that demand to know this information that is really none of their business?

Another question.... once you find out this information, what do you plan to do with it? What purpose will it provide you with? Will be life-changing? Do you NEED to know this information? WHY do you need to know this information? I dont need to know this information...

TennisAgenda
08-25-2006, 10:09 AM
Your comment is homophobic. Being gay isn't about "plastering" our sexuality. I think it would be good if some ATP gay pros came out and declared they are gay. We are in a battle of gay civil rights and we need more gay representation. And one of the areas where gay men can do more in sports. The lesbians have done all the hard work. The reason lesbians like King, Navratilova, Mauresmo, Stubbs and the others are out is because they had courage. They also changed public perceptions as well.

This topic isn't going away. Because there is the imbalance. Why is it that on the WTA there are so many out lesbians yet on the ATP tour everyone's in the closet? Its never going to go away. The fact is the public cares not just on this board. But this topic is discussed on just about every tennis board around the globe. And the reason why is tennis players are entertainers they are celebrities and the public is interested in the lives of stars off the court.

basil333
08-25-2006, 10:14 AM
You of course are missing MY point....

My point is WHY should they do what you want them to do?????? I am not homophobic

Sorry I dont see people as Gay or Straight - I see people as people - and their relationships with other people is purely their business no matter who they are and to be totally honest I really do not see the necessity for people to announce to the world whether they are gay or straight or whatever, it is un-necessary.

Why do you feel the need for Men to announce their sexuality? Do you want them to be exhibitionists? It is not necessary. Let them show their talents on the court or whatever - and leave them to enjoy their private lives.

No one forced the WTA ladies to announce their private lives, they have defended this issue well and of course they have their views as to whether to publicly discuss their lives, and some do discuss this subject in far more detail than others, that is their choice - so please let the ATP guys continue with their decision to shun the limelight regarding your demand.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 10:25 AM
No-one should be forced to come out and it shouldn't be that they're expected to do so to fulfil some demand for public representation of gay people in the ATP.

However, having said that, if one day one of them would choose to come out and deal with the attention it would bring and be a role model for gay people in sports, I would very much welcome the move. I think it would only take one pioneer for the slow but gradually wall of silence on this issue to start to crumble.

fererrodf
08-25-2006, 10:46 AM
I'd actually like the closeted ones to come out because we need a form of representation.

I'd actually tried to deal with that in my country where I used to be one of the top players competing in my country. I must say it's hard coming out.

I'm gay and I've been battling this issue in the testosterone tennis industry.

avocadoe
08-25-2006, 10:58 AM
Tennis Agenda wasn't saying anyone should be forced, just that it would be helpful in the ways others have mentioned (role model, civil rights. It will probably happen one of these days, the men are behind the women in this area. Why that is might be an interesting question. Maybe women have always had to fight for equality, vote, earning parity, right to have opinions out of the kitchen, so it is more second nature. Any thought?

bokehlicious
08-25-2006, 10:59 AM
Btw, who cares about that kind of gossip ?

Yappa
08-25-2006, 11:24 AM
Nobody.

myggen
08-25-2006, 11:24 AM
I think it is very understandable that they won't come out while they are pros. For one thing media would focus more on them being gay than them being good tennis players, and secondly it would probably give them some trouble within the pro tennis community that seems quite macho. I think Mauresmo did it very smoothly. If I'm not mistaken she has only once said she is a lesbian and other than that not talked about the issue, but just lived her life.

Godiva
08-25-2006, 11:39 AM
I understand what TA is trying to say, and I share his sentiments.

Frederick16
08-25-2006, 11:48 AM
why should there be a gay player in the top 200? i dont wanna be rude or so but maybe it is because gay men choose other things in live.. singing dancing acting in stead of ice hockey or football and tennis?

Godiva
08-25-2006, 11:51 AM
There we go with the stereotypes.

Godiva
08-25-2006, 11:52 AM
Or maybe you were being sarcastic?? It's hard to tell on these boards.

Action Jackson
08-25-2006, 11:54 AM
Wow this thread has never happened before.

Frederick16
08-25-2006, 11:54 AM
no i am serious.. it is strange that people say.. so many % is gay so there have to be so many gays in top 100.. but out of the 100 artist there the % gays are much higher.. so what does the % say?

Tommy_Babyboy
08-25-2006, 11:55 AM
I used to think Davenport is lesbian too.. Is it true?

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 12:01 PM
why should there be a gay player in the top 200? i dont wanna be rude or so but maybe it is because gay men choose other things in live.. singing dancing acting in stead of ice hockey or football and tennis?

Read about Bill Tilden before you make such remarks.

Frederick16
08-25-2006, 12:04 PM
maybe bill couldnt dance or sing that good! but you were right straight people dont get the deal with this.. im very sorry!

scoobs
08-25-2006, 12:05 PM
I'm a gay tennis fan

But OBVIOUSLY my first love is ballet :rolleyes:

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 12:06 PM
Tennis Agenda, I understand where you are coming from. As a gay man, I'd also be happy to see an "out" player on the ATP tour. It's something most straight people just won't understand, even the ones who are not homophobic, so there's really no use in starting threads like this because you'll just receive rude, dismissive replys.

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 12:07 PM
I'm a gay tennis fan

But OBVIOUSLY my first love is ballet :rolleyes:

Men in tights! :hearts:

scoobs
08-25-2006, 12:08 PM
If we're talking about the perceived "masculinity" of playing tennis then

a)many gay men have strongly masculine traits. I personally know several who love to watch and play soccer, rugby, motorsports

b)tennis is not, compared some other sports, a very "macho" type sport anyway - there's no physical contact, doesn't involve cars and so forth, so even if a) WEREN'T true, the assumption that gay men wouldn't want to play tennis because it's a masculine pursuit strikes me as invalid

cobalt60
08-25-2006, 12:10 PM
I used to think Davenport is lesbian too.. Is it true?
Well she is married to Rick Leach's ( doubles specialist semi-retired and he is not gay I assure you;) ) brother.

Hank777
08-25-2006, 12:13 PM
I think it would be good if some ATP gay pros came out and declared they are gay. We are in a battle of gay civil rights and we need more gay representation. And one of the areas where gay men can do more in sports.

I disagree, I wish the gay-movement all the best, but tennis = tennis. And whether or not gays require representation, that's not what the ATP is for. Or for that matter NHL, NBA, MLS etc.

Look, I'm not saying if people want to come out, they can't, hell GO AHEAD, as a fan I just want to see good tennis, as far as their personalities are concerned, sure I care If in real life a person does charity work etc, but basically that is irrelevant, only If a certain player does not profile good-sportmanship, do I really consider the character, the person, aside from the tennis.

Also I think some very VALID points, are being made, about the MEDIA stepping all over those players, some people would NOT like the attention. Also, maybe they're perfectly fine with their gay-nature, but simply keep their personal life & tennis seperate. I could second that any day.

Good luck with your cause, but I think ur barking up the wrong tree (no pun intended), for "mildly attacking the ATP".

Tennis = about Tennis

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 12:15 PM
I play tennis at public courts all the time in DC, and loads and loads of gay men play tennis. They are very, very over-represented on the courts, and I'm not even going to courts in the gay part of town. They are mostly masculine, athletic types.

I, on the other hand, dance and sing Kylie Minogue songs during change-overs to pump myself up! ;) GO GET 'EM, GUUUURL!!!

scoobs
08-25-2006, 12:16 PM
I play tennis at public courts all the time in DC, and loads and loads of gay men play tennis. They are very, very over-represented on the courts, and I'm not even going to courts in the gay part of town. They are mostly masculine, athletic types.

I, on the other hand, dance and sing Kylie Minogue songs during change-overs to pump myself up! ;) GO GET 'EM, GUUUURL!!!
Are you Shocked by the power? :D

peacechick
08-25-2006, 12:54 PM
it would be good for the kids to have a role model out there, but no matter what it's the players life and choice.
There are so many players who (try to) keep their private life private, why should the gay ones make it public

amierin
08-25-2006, 02:08 PM
I guess for straight guys and gals they don't understand why we want to know which male tennis pros are gay. Heterosexuality is splashed in my face every single day of my life. When I turn on the TV, read a newspaper, look at a billboard, go to the mall seeing straights hold hands in public or kiss. Its everywhere. And so is homophobia. If we are to progess as a society the lesbians can't fight this battle alone. Its time for gay men for us to take a stand. The lesbians have done so much in sports. People like Sheryl Swoopes coming out in the WNBA was incredible. People like golfers Patty Sheean and Rosie Jones are role models.


I don't think gay men on the ATP tour have to hold a press conference or do what Lance Bass did and go on the cover of People's magazine. However, I do believe they shouldn't be hiding being gay either. You see being straight doesn't mean shame. Its easy for straights to make jokes and say "oh being gay is no big deal. Or why do people want to talk about sex." Those comments are examples of homophobia. Being gay has a lot more to do then having sex. Being gay means living your life freely and openly gay and not having to worry about judgement and being proud of who you are. I think its so important for gay male athletes to come out. It shatters stereotypes. We know that in a population a certain number of men are gay or bisexual. That's just science and its a fact.



Yet the silence that is the homophobia on the ATP tour means just that. Its the silence that speaks volumes. Even though tennis is an individual sport all those gay men on the ATP are hiding. I am not sure why?
No one is going to harm them physically.

You see straights make jokes about this issue becuase it doesn't matter to them. Heterosexism is everywhere its marketed to us, its broadcast everyday its everywhere.
We wonder because of the imbalance. On the WTA so many out lesbians. I mean Renee Stubbs talked about being gay in an Australian newspaper this year and Lisa Raymond was her ex partner. We got five Wimbledon champions alive that are known to be lesbians, Mauresmo, Martinez, Navratilova, Novotna and King. Doubles specialist Gigi Fernandez used to be Martinez lover. Inez Gorrachategui is a lesbian. And so is Hana Mandlikova. And there are many more.

Some people say "oh the WTA is more accepting of lebsians.But I don';t think it came easy. Martina came out in the 1980s and King was outed by a former lesbian lover. The others though came out on their own. And some like Martinez and Gigi Fernandez didn't hold a press conference or anything but they didn't hide it either. This is what I would like to see. I would love to see some out gay male couples on the ATP tour just watching their partner's matches and not hiding that they are gay.

What you want to see doesn't matter. Each person has to make their own decision and should be allowed to.

Pea
08-25-2006, 02:35 PM
Wow, some people have a hard time coming out to their parents and yet you want them to come out to the world? Geez.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 02:46 PM
I guess for straight guys and gals they don't understand why we want to know which male tennis pros are gay. Heterosexuality is splashed in my face every single day of my life. When I turn on the TV, read a newspaper, look at a billboard, go to the mall seeing straights hold hands in public or kiss. Its everywhere. And so is homophobia. If we are to progess as a society the lesbians can't fight this battle alone. Its time for gay men for us to take a stand. The lesbians have done so much in sports. People like Sheryl Swoopes coming out in the WNBA was incredible. People like golfers Patty Sheean and Rosie Jones are role models.


I don't think gay men on the ATP tour have to hold a press conference or do what Lance Bass did and go on the cover of People's magazine. However, I do believe they shouldn't be hiding being gay either. You see being straight doesn't mean shame. Its easy for straights to make jokes and say "oh being gay is no big deal. Or why do people want to talk about sex." Those comments are examples of homophobia. Being gay has a lot more to do then having sex. Being gay means living your life freely and openly gay and not having to worry about judgement and being proud of who you are. I think its so important for gay male athletes to come out. It shatters stereotypes. We know that in a population a certain number of men are gay or bisexual. That's just science and its a fact.



Yet the silence that is the homophobia on the ATP tour means just that. Its the silence that speaks volumes. Even though tennis is an individual sport all those gay men on the ATP are hiding. I am not sure why?
No one is going to harm them physically.

You see straights make jokes about this issue becuase it doesn't matter to them. Heterosexism is everywhere its marketed to us, its broadcast everyday its everywhere.
We wonder because of the imbalance. On the WTA so many out lesbians. I mean Renee Stubbs talked about being gay in an Australian newspaper this year and Lisa Raymond was her ex partner. We got five Wimbledon champions alive that are known to be lesbians, Mauresmo, Martinez, Navratilova, Novotna and King. Doubles specialist Gigi Fernandez used to be Martinez lover. Inez Gorrachategui is a lesbian. And so is Hana Mandlikova. And there are many more.

Some people say "oh the WTA is more accepting of lebsians.But I don';t think it came easy. Martina came out in the 1980s and King was outed by a former lesbian lover. The others though came out on their own. And some like Martinez and Gigi Fernandez didn't hold a press conference or anything but they didn't hide it either. This is what I would like to see. I would love to see some out gay male couples on the ATP tour just watching their partner's matches and not hiding that they are gay.


Probably because there ain't gays in the top 100-200. They ain't role models, revealing an abnormality doesn't make u a role model. Those comments being homophobic is bullshit. In what way do they reveal a fear of homosexual lifestyle?? Ever think that the silence is because there ain't any gays in the higher ranks??

If u want to go out and hold hands and kiss in public, then do it, no one is stopping u....
U r a douche. :wavey:

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 02:49 PM
Read about Bill Tilden before you make such remarks.
Ya read about Bill Tilden and find out he was not only gay, but a pedophile, a rapist and molested adoloscent boys. What a great role model for homosexuals :rolleyes:

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 03:26 PM
They ain't role models, revealing an abnormality doesn't make u a role model.

Yes, yes, definitely no homophobia out there in the world. None whatsoever. :o

nisabula
08-25-2006, 03:28 PM
I don't get why sexuality is important in choosing a role model :confused:

If you want a tennis-playing role model, maybe choose one for their tennis skills, not their personal life :rolleyes:

Naranoc
08-25-2006, 03:30 PM
^ Completely agree.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 03:34 PM
It's not about having a tennis playing role model, it's about having professional athletes who are gay as role models, to inspire kids coming to terms with their sexuality into realising that it's not abnormal (to pick an ugly word used above) and that it is no bar to becoming a professional athlete if you wanted to be one, and for other professional athletes to be cool about it.

We all need role models growing up to one degree or another. Though I'm over the stage of my life where seeing a gay tennis player out and honest and not ashamed or afraid would personally benefit my development, there's no doubt in my mind that for kids struggling to come to terms with what they are, having such a role model in professional sports would be a great help.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 03:35 PM
Probably because there ain't gays in the top 100-200. They ain't role models, revealing an abnormality doesn't make u a role model. Those comments being homophobic is bullshit. In what way do they reveal a fear of homosexual lifestyle?? Ever think that the silence is because there ain't any gays in the higher ranks??

If u want to go out and hold hands and kiss in public, then do it, no one is stopping u....
U r a douche. :wavey:
Oooh and you have quite the grasp on grammar.
thankfully just enough of a grasp that we all get to understand what an ass you are:kiss::wavey:

and if you think no one out of 100-200 people could be gay or...:eek: BISEXUAL.
you really are as dumb as you type. :worship:

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 03:40 PM
I don't get why sexuality is important in choosing a role model :confused:

If you want a tennis-playing role model, maybe choose one for their tennis skills, not their personal life :rolleyes:

Yet more proof that straight people will never understand this so there's not reason to even discuss it with them. It's like telling a little black kid that he should only look up to the Williams only because of their tennis skills, not because they are good African-American role models.

I grew up hearing the following about gay people constantly: "Gay people were sick, disgusting, vile people who caused the downfall of every great civilization the world has ever known. We are all child molesters. We eat each others feces. We piss all over each others' faces. We shove gerbils and other rodents into our anuses. We hate God. We deserve death and hell. We are destroying society, the family, communities, etc." I heard this from almost everyone around me for my entire life. I lived in utter fear from the time I was about 13 and realized I was gay. I did counseling for years to change my "abnormality", etc. I've finally realized that I was fed a heap of wicked, cruel lies, and I am not any of those terrible things.

Straight people will just never understand what most of us have to go through when we are younger, and they'll never understand how inspiring it is to have role models that are like you. I see this same ignorance and intolerance among white people regarding black issues. Nothing surprises me.

Yappa
08-25-2006, 03:42 PM
Who knows. Maybe there really arent any gay top 100 players. We probably wont find out.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 03:44 PM
Oooh and you have quite the grasp on grammar.
thankfully just enough of a grasp that we all get to understand what an ass you are:kiss::wavey:

and if you think no one out of 100-200 people could be gay or...:eek: BISEXUAL.
you really are as dumb as you type. :worship:

Silly bitch, I type as I choose to. Do you really think I don't know that "ain't" and "u" aren't proper grammar? I still fail to see what that has to with my post. They COULD be but that doesn't mean there definitely are. You're really not in a position to be making fun of grammar considering that you don't even capitalize the first letter of a sentence. :wavey:

Sunset of Age
08-25-2006, 03:44 PM
Completely agree, partygirl...

scoobs
08-25-2006, 03:45 PM
In fairness, Love:Fifteen, SOME straight people can understand this just fine and empathise totally. Some can't.

nisabula
08-25-2006, 03:45 PM
It's not about having a tennis playing role model, it's about having professional athletes who are gay as role models, to inspire kids coming to terms with their sexuality into realising that it's not abnormal (to pick an ugly word used above) and that it is no bar to becoming a professional athlete if you wanted to be one, and for other professional athletes to be cool about it.

We all need role models growing up to one degree or another. Though I'm over the stage of my life where seeing a gay tennis player out and honest and not ashamed or afraid would personally benefit my development, there's no doubt in my mind that for kids struggling to come to terms with what they are, having such a role model in professional sports would be a great help.

I think I understand what you're saying but I just can't relate to it at all. When I was young and learning tennis all I ever thought about was how the professionals played, I never considered anything else about them. For example Kiefer is my favourite player, apparently nobody likes his personality but he's my favourite for his strokes and the way he plays.

I could understand a short person choosing someone like Rochus as a role model, because he shows them that short people can still succeed in tennis despite a big disadvantage, but I can't understand how being gay would affect your chances of becoming a pro tennis player.

Fee
08-25-2006, 03:45 PM
Volunteer to work in the players' lounge for one tournament and you will understand why no male player will ever come out while playing on the ATP Tour.

Scotso
08-25-2006, 03:47 PM
Volunteer to work in the players' lounge for one tournament and you will understand why no male player will ever come out while playing on the ATP Tour.

I think some people could do it. They would have to be a huge name that, gay or no, no one would really mess with.

Fee
08-25-2006, 03:49 PM
I can think of only one player on tour that 'no one would mess with' and despite the fantastic fiction and running joke by some on this board, we all know he's not gay (don't let the Wimbledon sport coat fool you ;) ).

Yappa
08-25-2006, 03:50 PM
Dont you think that if we assume that there are gay/bisexual players in the top 100, we wouldnt know that already? These players ARE in the spotlight after all.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 03:51 PM
Silly bitch, I type as I choose to. Do you really think I don't know that "ain't" and "u" aren't proper grammar? I still fail to see what that has to with my post. They COULD be but that doesn't mean there definitely are. You're really not in a position to be making fun of grammar considering that you don't even capitalize the first letter of a sentence. :wavey:
Yep, you got me.

How am I (or anyone here) to know what you do or do not know when you type like that?
next time, a little effort please :D it will look better on you.

as far as "silly bitch"...
I am a bitch but i Ain't silly.

-love it.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 03:52 PM
Yep, you got me.

How am I (or anyone here) to know what you do or do not know when you type like that?
next time, a little effort please :D it will look better on you.

as far as "silly bitch"...
I am a bitch but i Ain't silly.

-love it.

Then don't make assumptions. :lol:

nisabula
08-25-2006, 03:53 PM
It's like telling a little black kid that he should only look up to the Williams only because of their tennis skills, not because they are good African-American role models.

Is there a problem with that? That's exactly why they should look up to them, for their tennis. Tennis is tennis, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or what you look like.

It would be like an ugly kid thinking, "Hey, Stepanek is ugly and he's a pro, maybe I can be one too!". There's no need to judge anyone on anything but how they play.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 03:54 PM
Being gay wouldn't affect your chances of becoming a pro tennis player. But from appearances, it would affect your chances of being honest about being gay and not enduring an awful lot of personal flack from a locker room filled with people concerned that you might want to perve on them.

Look, professional sport is one of the last bastions of homophobia. Here in the UK there is not ONE gay soccer star who is out. And yes, there are some, there's no shortage of rumours. The last gay soccer start we had was a mess and committed suicide years ago. We have athletes - runners, hurdlers etc who are well-known to be gay (the London gay scene is only so big) but they're not out.

Whoever takes that step would have to be a very brave, resiliant person, prepared to endure huge amounts of flack from the fans, their fellow athletes and the media too. It's no surprise to me that, given how brief the career of a professional athlete is, they have chosen not to acknowledge or admit it in public. They're not ashamed, they just don't want the hassle.

It is disappointing, though.

Sooner or later, someone will come along who's going to take the step and start bringing a much more mature attitude to sexuality into sport at all levels.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 03:54 PM
we all know he's not gay
Do we?
...he never told me. :p

Volunteer to work in the players' lounge for one tournament and you will understand why no male player will ever come out while playing on the ATP Tour.
Care to elaborate oh connected one?

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 03:55 PM
Is there a problem with that? That's exactly why they should look up to them, for their tennis. Tennis is tennis, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or what you look like.

It would be like an ugly kid thinking, "Hey, Stepanek is ugly and he's a pro, maybe I can be one too!". There's no need to judge anyone on anything but how they play.
:yeah:

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 03:56 PM
Yet more proof that straight people will never understand this so there's not reason to even discuss it with them. It's like telling a little black kid that he should only look up to the Williams only because of their tennis skills, not because they are good African-American role models.

I grew up hearing the following about gay people constantly: "Gay people were sick, disgusting, vile people who caused the downfall of every great civilization the world has ever known. We are all child molesters. We eat each others feces. We piss all over each others' faces. We shove gerbils and other rodents into our anuses. We hate God. We deserve death and hell. We are destroying society, the family, communities, etc." I heard this from almost everyone around me for my entire life. I lived in utter fear from the time I was about 13 and realized I was gay. I did counseling for years to change my "abnormality", etc. I've finally realized that I was fed a heap of wicked, cruel lies, and I am not any of those terrible things.

Straight people will just never understand what most of us have to go through when we are younger, and they'll never understand how inspiring it is to have role models that are like you. I see this same ignorance and intolerance among white people regarding black issues. Nothing surprises me.



Are you saying black children should only look up to the Williams sisters because they are black and not because they are good tennis players? Racist. :rolleyes:

scoobs
08-25-2006, 03:57 PM
Is there a problem with that? That's exactly why they should look up to them, for their tennis. Tennis is tennis, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is or what you look like.

It would be like an ugly kid thinking, "Hey, Stepanek is ugly and he's a pro, maybe I can be one too!". There's no need to judge anyone on anything but how they play.
Unless you're in some sort of minority status, you probably won't understand. In fact, clearly you don't.

People fighting for equal status under the law and in the eyes of society need visible role models as a symbol to rally round and inspire, and to be at the vanguard of change.

It's not accidental that names like Rosa Perks and Martin Luther King are revered in the United States by the black community for their commitment to bringing about difficult change.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 03:59 PM
Unless you're in some sort of minority status, you probably won't understand. In fact, clearly you don't.

People fighting for equal status under the law and in the eyes of society need visible role models as a symbol to rally round and inspire, and to be at the vanguard of change.

It's not accidental that names like Rosa Perks and Martin Luther King are revered in the United States by the black community for their commitment to bringing about difficult change.

How are gay people not treated equally?

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:01 PM
How are gay people not treated equally?
I'm not here to educate you. Go and reduce your ignorance levels 100% and perhaps we can talk.

Scotso
08-25-2006, 04:01 PM
How are gay people not treated equally?

You're kidding, right?

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:04 PM
I'm not here to educate you. Go and reduce your ignorance levels 100% and perhaps we can talk.
So you have no examples that gay people are not treated equally. Brilliant!

You're kidding, right?

No.

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 04:04 PM
I can't understand how being gay would affect your chances of becoming a pro tennis player.

It can be pretty scary to play sports with straight men when you are younger. Even tennis.

Maybe things are different where you live, but in the South of the USA, young gay kids live in fear and hiding. Seeing a gay tennis player who isn't afraid to be out would possibly give young gay kids encouragement when literally no one around them understands or shows even the slightest compassion. You just have to understand how lonely it is when you are young and gay, with no one to turn to and talk about what's going on inside you.

Again, I am sure my story would be different if I hadn't grown up in the Bible Belt. :scared:

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 04:05 PM
Being gay or being black or being whatever is not under your control is not a reason to be admired. Having courage is.

Fee
08-25-2006, 04:05 PM
Then don't make assumptions. :lol:

Could you explain your user name please? Crip and Blunt have a particular meaning in my neck of the woods and I just want to be sure...

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:06 PM
So you have no examples that gay people are not treated equally. Brilliant!



No.
16 posts into his MTF career and I'm going to call it.

TROLL.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:07 PM
It can be pretty scary to play sports with straight men when you are younger. Even tennis.

Maybe things are different where you live, but in the South of the USA, young gay kids live in fear and hiding. Seeing a gay tennis player who isn't afraid to be out would possibly give young gay kids encouragement when literally no one around them understands or shows even the slightest compassion. You just have to understand how lonely it is when you are young and gay, with no one to turn to and talk about what's going on inside you.

Again, I am sure my story would be different if I hadn't grown up in the Bible Belt. :scared:
That must have been very tough - I can only imagine. It wasn't easy dealing with it in a small post-industrial town in the north of England but nowhere near as bad as it must be where you're from.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:08 PM
Could you explain your user name please? Crip and Blunt have a particular meaning in my neck of the woods and I just want to be sure...

Crip walk (C-walk) is a type of dance to hip hop or rap music. I'm sure you know what a blunt is. Where do you live that you think the meaning may be different?

cmurray
08-25-2006, 04:09 PM
For crying out loud. They owe you nothing. Get that? NOTHING! They could ALL be gay, every last one of them, and if they want to keep that information to themselves, so be it. They are atheletes, and their job is to play tennis, not to cater to whatever whims you decide are important.

I will say this, though, because I feel like it needs to be said. The homosexual community is forever wishing people out of the closet, fairly salivating over the idea that Andy roddick or Rafa or Federer is gay. Do you think they appreciate it? Any of them? I can tell you right now that they don't. Even if one or all were gay, pushing at them with pointing fingers and knowing looks isn't going to make them want to come out. And what if they AREN'T gay? A person's sexuality is inextricably tied to his or her man or womanhood. For those of you who are homosexual, how would you feel if somebody walked up to you every day and said, "Why don't you just admit that you're straight. I can tell by the way you walk and dress. You aren't fooling anyone." You'd get mad, not because you are heterophobic, but because somebody is questioning what you are at your core.

Cheryl

Action Jackson
08-25-2006, 04:11 PM
They are all gay.

Every player from 1 -1000 is gay.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:11 PM
16 posts into his MTF career and I'm going to call it.

TROLL.

b/c I am making you look like the moron that you are?

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:13 PM
For crying out loud. They owe you nothing. Get that? NOTHING! They could ALL be gay, every last one of them, and if they want to keep that information to themselves, so be it. They are atheletes, and their job is to play tennis, not to cater to whatever whims you decide are important.

I will say this, though, because I feel like it needs to be said. The homosexual community is forever wishing people out of the closet, fairly salivating over the idea that Andy roddick or Rafa or Federer is gay. Do you think they appreciate it? Any of them? I can tell you right now that they don't. Even if one or all were gay, pushing at them with pointing fingers and knowing looks isn't going to make them want to come out. And what if they AREN'T gay? A person's sexuality is inextricably tied to his or her man or womanhood. For those of you who are homosexual, how would you feel if somebody walked up to you every day and said, "Why don't you just admit that you're straight. I can tell by the way you walk and dress. You aren't fooling anyone." You'd get mad, not because you are heterophobic, but because somebody is questioning what you are at your core.

Cheryl
Yes, of course, this is because we all want to know what our chances are of getting into their jockstraps.

*sigh*

And how would you know if they appreciate it or not? Are channeling them or just making assumptions?

A person's sexuality is nothing to do with their manhood or womanhood. A gay man is still a man, his manhood is still completely intact. Questioning someone's sexuality is NOT an attack on their manhood and it's this misguided belief that being gay makes you less of a man that is at the core of the issue.

Fee
08-25-2006, 04:13 PM
Crip walk (C-walk) is a type of dance to hip hop or rap music. I'm sure you know what a blunt is. Where do you live that you think the meaning may be different?

In the US, the Crips are the most (or 2nd most) notorious and violent black street gang, responsible for thousands of deaths in order to protect their drug trade.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 04:14 PM
Blunt = Blunt.

this is what we have learned here and everyone needs one, pronto.

and i think making statments as to one person knowing how another feels or would feel about a situation is, uh....:scared:

they might like speculation...you never know, they are just words.
and a few strike me as the type to like to be talked about period. :devil:

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:16 PM
In the US, the Crips are the most (or 2nd most) notorious and violent black street gang, responsible for thousands of deaths in order to protect their drug trade.

Not necessarily, there are caucasian members of the crips and the crip walk is more a dance or hip hop thing.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:16 PM
Blunt = Blunt.

this is what we have learned here and everyone needs one, pronto.

and i think making statments as to one person knowing how another feels or would feel about a situation is, uh....:scared:

they might like speculation...you never know, they are just words.
and a few strike me as the type to like to be talked about period. :devil:
Shush, silly bitch! :(

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 04:17 PM
That must have been very tough - I can only imagine. It wasn't easy dealing with it in a small post-industrial town in the north of England but nowhere near as bad as it must be where you're from.

Fortunately I have escaped to Washington, DC where gay people can live in relative peace ... though I have had people screaming at me from car windows as I walk down the street. :o

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:19 PM
Fortunately I have escaped to Washington, DC where gay people can live in relative peace ... though I have had people screaming at me from car windows as I walk down the street. :o
You must have one of those really feminine trots then, huh?

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 04:19 PM
Of course, people should admire for example the Williams Sisters for their tennis. I do, and I´m not black. But for some black people, the blackness of the Williams sisters can be an extra dimension for them: the dimension of being a black woman and being succesfull in a especially 'white' tennis world. It was a hard struggle for them, but they made it. Or the dimension from coming from a poor neighborhood and still make it! These things can be an inspiration for their fans, and start believing in their dreams, seeing that it is possible. A black girl thinking: hey I can do that too!

For gay people, and especially the young ones, it is the same. It can be an inspiration for them to see a gay tennis player being succesfull and making it in the 'straight' world and be accepted. For young gay people it is important to see them, and not only the gays doing ballet or in dresses (although they can be an inspiration for many people as well, but so they can see that you have a lot of different gay people).
Just seeing that there are a lot of accepted gay people all over the world, accepted in all area's, like politics and in this case sports.
Seeing that, it can be very comforting, inspirational for them and make them more confident about themselves. It sounds big, but it is big as well. Growing up as a boy, being gay and you only see straight people in sports, in the cinema etc etc, it can make you very insecure and thinking there is something wrong with you. I believe that just one gay tennisplayer, or a soccerplayer can make such a difference and be an source of power for young (and old as well) gay people.
Only thing is that the athletes of course can't be forced to tell they are gay. Everyone should know for themselves, but what a difference they could make...the impact would be huge for many people...in a positive way!

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 04:20 PM
Are we going to have one of these threads every six months from now on?

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=70644

partygirl
08-25-2006, 04:20 PM
b/c I am making you look like the moron that you are?
you have accomplished very little here my dear.

though I have had people screaming at me from car windows as I walk down the street.
:p because your hot?:hug:

Fee
08-25-2006, 04:21 PM
Care to elaborate oh connected one?

Use your imagination... the language they use, the player who wasn't there that they chose to insult with one particular put-down, the Lord of the Flies pack mentality, etc, etc. I can only imagine what it must be like at a bigger tournament or a slam, where there are more guys from a bigger variety of backgrounds. But that's just the players...

What do you think Nike would do if one of its biggest tennis stars (no one in particular, just a hypothesis) came out of the closet? Martina N is one of the most visible and popular tennis stars on the planet, whether or not she wins matches, and she played without a clothing contract for almost 2 years until she got some money from Under Armour.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:21 PM
Of course, people should admire for example the Williams Sisters for their tennis. I do, and I´m not black. But for some black people, the blackness of the Williams sisters can be an extra dimension for them: the dimension of being a black woman and being succesfull in a especially 'white' tennis world. It was a hard struggle for them, but they made it. Or the dimension from coming from a poor neighborhood and still make it! These things can be an inspiration for their fans, and start believing in their dreams, seeing that it is possible. A black girl thinking: hey I can do that too!




I'm black and Venus and Serena being black does nothing for me nor any of my tennis playing friends. You have no idea what you are talking about. :wavey:

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:22 PM
The queers should stay in the closet with their high fashion and their tight boxer-briefs.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:23 PM
I'm black and Venus and Serena being black does nothing for me nor any of my tennis playing friends. You have no idea what you are talking about. :wavey:
SO glad you've been appointed the ambassador for all black people in the world everywhere ever for all time, so what you say MUST be true.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:24 PM
The queers should stay in the closet with their high fashion and their tight boxer-briefs.
:yeah:

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:24 PM
you have accomplished very little here my dear.


:p because your hot?:hug:

Hey grammar Nazi, learn when to use "your" and "you're" before trying to make fun of the way someone types.


Fucking hypocrites. :rolleyes:

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:25 PM
The queers should stay in the closet with their high fashion and their tight boxer-briefs.
Gay people should come out of the closet and we should bundle the stupid people in there instead.

It should be more socially unacceptable to be brain-numbingly DUMB than it is to be gay.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:25 PM
SO glad you've been appointed the ambassador for all black people in the world everywhere ever for all time, so what you say MUST be true.
Now you know how idiotic you sound speaking for all gay people. :wavey:

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:26 PM
SO glad you've been appointed the ambassador for all black people in the world everywhere ever for all time, so what you say MUST be true.
I don't look up to players from Pakistan or India either. It must be a gay thing.

_pyromatic
08-25-2006, 04:26 PM
I'm black and Venus and Serena being black does nothing for me nor any of my tennis playing friends. You have no idea what you are talking about. :wavey:
I know many black people that strongly disagree with you. :wavey:

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:27 PM
:yeah:
Is it nice and snug in there?

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:27 PM
Now you know how idiotic you sound speaking for all gay people. :wavey:
I don't claim to be. Some gay people don't give a damn one way or the other. Some gay people hate tennis. Some gay people are quite happy in their closet, much as I find that bizarre - that's their choice.

You apparently believe that just because you and your friends don't feel a certain way someone else's entire argument falls to the ground for all other black people.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:29 PM
Is it nice and snug in there?
Har-har guffaw!

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 04:29 PM
Gay people should come out of the closet and we should bundle the stupid people in there instead.

It should be more socially unacceptable to be brain-numbingly DUMB than it is to be gay.

We'd never survive the depopulation if that was the case.