Gay Men tennis players should come out [Archive] - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

Gay Men tennis players should come out

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scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:30 PM
We'd never survive the depopulation if that was the case.
We'd solve the global energy crisis at a stroke.

cincy
08-25-2006, 04:30 PM
It's not accidental that names like Rosa Perks and Martin Luther King are revered in the United States by the black community for their commitment to bringing about difficult change.

Miss Rosa and Dr. King are revered in the US because they were pioneers in civil rights. They did not play sports. I dislike having the Williams sisters put on the same level as these truly great people. Venus and Serena are spoiled, self-centered, not very bright people who happen to be black and play tennis. They have done NOTHING for Black people in the United States. They have not given back to their people in any way. They are not heroes. Young people have no need to think of them as such.

For crying out loud. They owe you nothing. Get that? NOTHING! They could ALL be gay, every last one of them, and if they want to keep that information to themselves, so be it. They are atheletes, and their job is to play tennis, not to cater to whatever whims you decide are important.

Thank you. Well said.

This is yet another ridiculous post by yet another pitiful homosexual. You people need to get over it. Be as gay as you want but stop wishing and hoping a tennis player will come out to be your hero.

Fortunately I have escaped to Washington, DC where gay people can live in relative peace ... though I have had people screaming at me from car windows as I walk down the street.

WHY??? Do you swish down the street dressed in drag? Why would anyone scream at you from a car? That sounds like a phobia on your part. (Everybody is looking at me.) That isn't even done in Cincinnati, I can't imagine anybody in D.C. would do that.

Why don't you all just stop!!!

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 04:31 PM
I'm black and Venus and Serena being black does nothing for me nor any of my tennis playing friends. You have no idea what you are talking about. :wavey:

That's why I said "some black people". I have black friends who do admire them, not just for being black, but for what they achieved looking at their background and being black and still being succesfull in a especially 'white' tennisworld.

Maybe you can say things a bit nicer and friendlier the next time. :wavey:

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:32 PM
WHY??? Do you swish down the street dressed in drag? Why would anyone scream at you from a car? That sounds like a phobia on your part. (Everybody is looking at me.) That isn't even done in Cincinnati, I can't imagine anybody in D.C. would do that.

Why don't you all just stop!!!
I've had people throw stuff at me from a car. :shrug: I suppose I just made that up in my head? And no, I wasn't wearing a dress, or a shirt that said "BIG FAT QUEER THAT TAKES IT UP THE ASS." I was with my boyfriend. We weren't even holding hands.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 04:33 PM
Hey grammar Nazi, learn when to use "your" and "you're" before trying to make fun of the way someone types.
Oh i was not making fun...
i was pointing out the nonsense.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:33 PM
I've had people throw stuff at me from a car. :shrug: I suppose I just made that up in my head? And no, I wasn't wearing a dress, or a shirt that said "BIG FAT QUEER THAT TAKES IT UP THE ASS." I was with my boyfriend. We weren't even holding hands.
Of course it's OUR fault when we're verbally abused or have things thrown at us by complete strangers.

We queers are oversensitive, you know.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:35 PM
I've had people throw stuff at me from a car. :shrug: I suppose I just made that up in my head? And no, I wasn't wearing a dress, or a shirt that said "BIG FAT QUEER THAT TAKES IT UP THE ASS." I was with my boyfriend. We weren't even holding hands.
I think when people throw paper bags at you, it is for a completely different reason than your "gayhood".

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 04:36 PM
The whole issue is being put in the shadow in this thread by all the ego's who are just becoming more extreme in their opinions! Just relax and discuss in a normal way

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:37 PM
I think when people throw paper bags at you, it is for a completely different reason than your "gayhood".
They were shouting "faggot" when they did it. But thank you for making yourself look like an ass, and saving me the effort. :)

CooCooCachoo
08-25-2006, 04:37 PM
Wow this thread has never happened before.

Certainly not in such a well-formulated way.

I fully agree with TA. I just want to know how he knows Jana Novotna is a lesbian :lol:

Action Jackson
08-25-2006, 04:38 PM
Certainly not in such a well-formulated way.

I fully agree with TA. I just want to know how he knows Jana Novotna is a lesbian :lol:

She was allegedly with Hana Mandlikova.

cmurray
08-25-2006, 04:39 PM
Yes, of course, this is because we all want to know what our chances are of getting into their jockstraps.

*sigh*

And how would you know if they appreciate it or not? Are channeling them or just making assumptions?

A person's sexuality is nothing to do with their manhood or womanhood. A gay man is still a man, his manhood is still completely intact. Questioning someone's sexuality is NOT an attack on their manhood and it's this misguided belief that being gay makes you less of a man that is at the core of the issue.

I didn't say it made them less of a man (or woman), nor will you ever hear me make such claims. What I said was that sexuality is tied to manhood (or womanhood). Sexuality - NOT heterosexuality. We are sexual beings, it is a core part of who we are and denying that doesn't change it.

Oh, and you can save the "we don't wish for people to come out" speech. I am quite good friends with numerous gay and lesbian couples who admit that they secretly (and in a few cases, not so secretly) wish certain celebrities would come out. I had one friend who INSISTED that both Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were in the closet, simply because he thought they were hot.

I wish that more tennis players went to Africa to help with the AIDS crisis. But you don't see me starting threads about it, do you?

Naranoc
08-25-2006, 04:39 PM
I've had people throw stuff at me from a car. I suppose I just made that up in my head? And no, I wasn't wearing a dress, or a shirt that said "BIG FAT QUEER THAT TAKES IT UP THE ASS." I was with my boyfriend. We weren't even holding hands.

You were walking next to a guy in the street and people knew you were gay? :confused:

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:42 PM
You were walking next to a guy in the street and people knew you were gay? :confused:
They didn't know. They assumed. They just happened to be right. Is it so hard to believe there are assholes out there that make assumptions? People do it all the time. Like I've already made the assumption that Crip Walk Blunt is mildly retarded. I might be right, but I don't KNOW that he is mildly retarded.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:45 PM
They were shouting "faggot" when they did it. But thank you for making yourself looking like an ass, and saving me the effort. :)
:lol: Too easy.

nisabula
08-25-2006, 04:46 PM
Of course, people should admire for example the Williams Sisters for their tennis. I do, and I´m not black. But for some black people, the blackness of the Williams sisters can be an extra dimension for them: the dimension of being a black woman and being succesfull in a especially 'white' tennis world. It was a hard struggle for them, but they made it. Or the dimension from coming from a poor neighborhood and still make it! These things can be an inspiration for their fans, and start believing in their dreams, seeing that it is possible. A black girl thinking: hey I can do that too!

That is exactly the problem. Some black people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and automatically think things will be harder for them because they're black. How is it harder for a black person to succeed in tennis? Will coaches refuse to teach them? Or maybe tournaments won't allow them to enter because they are black? I don't think so. Any "struggle" a black person goes through to become a tennis player isn't because of the colour of their skin.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:46 PM
:lol: Too easy.
In a few years, yes, that's what the bears will be saying about you.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:47 PM
That is exactly the problem. Some black people seem to have a chip on their shoulder and automatically think things will be harder for them because they're black. How is it harder for a black person to succeed in tennis? Will coaches refuse to teach them? Or maybe tournaments won't allow them to enter because they are black? I don't think so. Any "struggle" a black person goes through to become a tennis player isn't because of the colour of their skin.

:retard:

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:48 PM
I didn't say it made them less of a man (or woman), nor will you ever hear me make such claims. What I said was that sexuality is tied to manhood (or womanhood). Sexuality - NOT heterosexuality. We are sexual beings, it is a core part of who we are and denying that doesn't change it.

True - but your implication is that by questioning their sexuality we are questioning their manhood and womanhood and that this is obviously a bad thing for them. Obviously I don't agree.

Oh, and you can save the "we don't wish for people to come out" speech. I am quite good friends with numerous gay and lesbian couples who admit that they secretly (and in a few cases, not so secretly) wish certain celebrities would come out. I had one friend who INSISTED that both Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were in the closet, simply because he thought they were hot.

I've no doubt some do - although I find it rather bizarre. If I discovered Roger Federer was gay, for example, my reaction would not be "oh, now nothing can keep us apart" - I would not believe I had any more chance of getting with him than I do now. Nor would I feel smug or whatever that he was one of us. Merely proud of his bravery.

And in any case, I don't see why wishing someone would come out as gay because you fancy them should be seen as a bad thing. So what?

I wish that more tennis players went to Africa to help with the AIDS crisis. But you don't see me starting threads about it, do you?

Nothing is stopping you from doing so. Just because you choose not to do so doesn't mean nobody else should ride their own hobby horses either.

I'm sure people wish we'd just go away. We won't.

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:49 PM
In a few years, yes, that's what the bears will be saying about you.
Dude, you're not even witty. Atleast give me a laugh

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:51 PM
Dude, you're not even witty. Atleast give me a laugh
You're not worth the effort.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 04:52 PM
Use your imagination... the language they use, the player who wasn't there that they chose to insult with one particular put-down, the Lord of the Flies pack mentality, etc, etc. I can only imagine what it must be like at a bigger tournament or a slam, where there are more guys from a bigger variety of backgrounds. But that's just the players...

That is really unfortunate,
i mean one of the things i love about tennis is (at least the game) is good manners & politely orientated...

Oh, and you can save the "we don't wish for people to come out" speech. I am quite good friends with numerous gay and lesbian couples who admit that they secretly (and in a few cases, not so secretly) wish certain celebrities would come out. I had one friend who INSISTED that both Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were in the closet, simply because he thought they were hot.
ok.
What does that have to do with anything?:shrug:
...so you know some people?

CooCooCachoo
08-25-2006, 04:54 PM
For crying out loud. They owe you nothing. Get that? NOTHING! They could ALL be gay, every last one of them, and if they want to keep that information to themselves, so be it. They are atheletes, and their job is to play tennis, not to cater to whatever whims you decide are important.

I will say this, though, because I feel like it needs to be said. The homosexual community is forever wishing people out of the closet, fairly salivating over the idea that Andy roddick or Rafa or Federer is gay. Do you think they appreciate it? Any of them? I can tell you right now that they don't. Even if one or all were gay, pushing at them with pointing fingers and knowing looks isn't going to make them want to come out. And what if they AREN'T gay? A person's sexuality is inextricably tied to his or her man or womanhood. For those of you who are homosexual, how would you feel if somebody walked up to you every day and said, "Why don't you just admit that you're straight. I can tell by the way you walk and dress. You aren't fooling anyone." You'd get mad, not because you are heterophobic, but because somebody is questioning what you are at your core.

Cheryl

:bs:

AgassiDomination
08-25-2006, 04:56 PM
You're not worth the effort.
Fine! :hysteric:

nisabula
08-25-2006, 04:56 PM
:retard:

Problem?

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:57 PM
Problem?
Yes - it's okay by him if you suggest gay people have a chip on their shoulders about this stuff but not okay for you to suggest black people have a chip on their shoulders about this stuff.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 04:58 PM
24 posts and counting...
why would you even say something like that?
Do be careful there are rules here.
;)

He wants to call me retarded then he deserves it. Tit for tat.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 04:59 PM
24 posts and counting...
why would you even say something like that?
Do be careful there are rules here.
;)
To be fair I did call him 'midly retarded.' If that doesn't deserve a smartass retort I don't know what does. :lol:

scoobs
08-25-2006, 04:59 PM
To be fair I did call him 'midly retarded.' If that doesn't deserve a smartass retort I don't know what does. :lol:
I thought that was admirably restrained, personally.

partygirl
08-25-2006, 05:03 PM
well then, okay...
this thread is quickly becomming the stupidest place on MTF.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah I think this thread had jumped the shark.

Time to bury it for a couple of months.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 05:05 PM
Scoobs do you have an MSN account where we can talk ballet shop?

Naranoc
08-25-2006, 05:05 PM
I declare this thread officially sealed.

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 05:11 PM
You must have one of those really feminine trots then, huh?

That ... or maybe the fact that I was holding my boyfriend's hand gave away the fact that I was gay. :shrug:

In either case, I definitely deserve to have hatred and insults heaped upon me. That's what God would do, too.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:12 PM
Scoobs do you have an MSN account where we can talk ballet shop?
PM me.

I wouldn't want people hearing about our secret HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA.

Ooopsy.

:)

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:14 PM
That ... or maybe the fact that I was holding my boyfriend's hand gave away the fact that I was gay. :shurg:

In either case, I definitely deserve to have hatred and insults heaped upon me. That's what God would do, too.
It makes me sick that the first reaction to what you said was the suggestion you must have done something to deserve it - like walking in a feminine way or otherwise announcing your sexuality - as though that fully entitles people to abuse you in any way shape or form.

And some idiot earlier was wondering how gays are discriminated against.

We have a LONG way to go.

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:15 PM
Well I'll be damned if this topic hasn't come up before. It's so stupid. Some folks think tennis players owe them a piece of their private lives gay or straight. Well they do not. Let them be. Let them just play tennis and do whatever they like and be with whomever they choose. Do the same with your life and everything will be alright. Once upon a time there was a poor gay soul called JamesJordan who bombarded us with arguments why gay tennis players should come out. A few posters sound remarkably like him. In fact the thread starter sounds almost exactly like him. Only thing is that James was Canadian ;)

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 05:17 PM
Hey Love-Fifteen, if you had continued reading the thread instead of sending me a reactionary rep, you would have seen that I was most obviously being sarcastic. :)

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:18 PM
Well I'll be damned if this topic hasn't come up before. It's so stupid. Some folks think tennis players owe them a piece of their private lives gay or straight. Well they do not. Let them be. Let them just play tennis and do whatever they like and be with whomever they choose. Do the same with your life and everything will be alright. Once upon a time there was a poor gay soul called JamesJordan who bombarded us with arguments why gay tennis players should come out. A few posters sound remarkably like him. In fact the thread starter sounds almost exactly like him. Only thing is that James was Canadian ;)
It's not about people thinking they owe us anything.

It's about wishing one of them would choose, of their own free will, if they felt they could, to come out and take on the mantle of being a role model.

Nobody wants to force that to happen, nobody things they owe it to us, nobody is demanding it and we respect some feel they can't or don't want to for whatever reason.

Fine.

It would just be nice for us, is all.

TennisAgenda
08-25-2006, 05:20 PM
I have read some reponses on this board some from the intelligent to some just typically homophobic. Some people say "oh the gay male tennis player will be called names." I think the real reason gay male tennis players hide in the closet is unfortunately they worry about what OTHER MEN THINK. That's right it boils down to MEN OPPRESSING OTHER MEN. Even though tennis is an individual sport the gay male tennis players hide their homosexuality. I also think the ATP tour structure has to do with the homophobia as well. The ATP cultivates this heterosexist product. A product where gay men tennis players are invisible. And the homophobic people in the world would like GAY MEN TO REMAIN INVISIBLE IN TENNIS. And that's the problem being invisible means being ASHAMED and that's not right. Well guess what? That could happen but that's life. The sad thing about the ATP tour is that there are gay men some of them former or current champions in the closet. The WTA has 4 women that reached no.1 that were lesbian and 5 that were Wimbledon champions. So on the ATP tour there must have been some top 100 player or even some chamoion hiding in the closet. Jim Courier is a perfect example. Courier talks so openly about his crushes with male tennis players on TV. Its very obvious Courier is gay. But Courier although retired for 6 years still hiding. Rosa Parks was called names when she refused to sit at the back of the bus for a white man. Billie Jean King was called names when she came out as a lesbian and when she Martina Navratilova and the other women started the WTA they were called names. The point is this is also a civil rights issue gay male tennis players have A RIGHT to be openly gay and not have to worry about potentially being harmed. A lot of homophobic comments on this board of course go back to the "sex talk." Again being gay is not just about sex. Its about living your life openly. And being gay also means having gay representation.

Yappa
08-25-2006, 05:21 PM
Courier is gay? Hmm I never knew.
We all knew that this type of thread would end up in name calling. Reminds of the Blake thread.

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:22 PM
It's not about people thinking they owe us anything.

It's about wishing one of them would choose, of their own free will, if they felt they could, to come out and take on the mantle of being a role model.

Nobody wants to force that to happen, nobody things they owe it to us, nobody is demanding it and we respect some feel they can't or don't want to for whatever reason.

Fine.

It would just be nice for us, is all.

Speak for yourself or are you representing all the gay fans ? :rolleyes:

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 05:23 PM
Hey Love-Fifteen, if you had continued reading the thread instead of sending me a reactionary rep, you would have seen that I was most obviously being sarcastic. :)

Sorry! (It was a good rep though. Hehe!)

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:23 PM
Speak for yourself or are you representing all the gay fans ? :rolleyes:
Well that's speaking for me, in any case.

Others may have different views that I disagree with.

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:23 PM
That's it TennisAgenda IS JamesJordan.

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Well that's speaking for me, in any case.

Others may have different views that I disagree with.
Well why would it be "nice" for you if a gay tennis player came out ? You've already stated that you're past the age where this would be inspirational for you and you would not view such a player "as one of us". So why would it matter to you one way or another ?

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Jordanjames in fact (the link to his other thread is in my post somewhere in this thread). The monolithic paragraphs of drivel are unmistakeable, punctuated by ludicrous statements like this:

And that's the problem being invisible means being ASHAMED and that's not right.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:29 PM
Well why would it be "nice" for you if a gay tennis player came out ? You've already stated that you're past the age where this would be inspirational for you and you would not view such a player "as one of us". So why would it matter to you one way or another ?
Because, as I have said, I suspect it would be of benefit to young gay kids trying to sort out the turmoil of their lives to have a positive role model in sports to look up to and basically say "it's okay to be gay"

I do care about other people than myself, you know.

*shrug*

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 05:29 PM
I walked around cities before with my boyfriend without holding hands, and we've still been harrassed by people driving by shouting horrible things out their windows.

As I said before, we most definitely deserve all the hatred and insults because let's face it, we're the reason civilization is crumbling. Most terrorists are gay. Most people starting wars are gay. Most dead-beat dads are gay. Most men on death row are gay.

Hezbollah ... gay. Las FARC ... gay. ETA ... gay. The IRA ... gay. Why do gay people keep starting violence in all the world. Poor, peace-loving straight men suffer as we violent, angry gays wreak havoc on all the world.

Remember that crazy lady who murdered her kids in the bathtub? A lesbian!

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 05:35 PM
I walked around cities before with my boyfriend without holding hands, and we've still been harrassed by people driving by shouting horrible things out their windows.

As I said before, we most definitely deserve all the hatred and insults because let's face it, we're the reason civilization is crumbling. Most terrorists are gay. Most people starting wars are gay. Most dead-beat dads are gay. Most men on death row are gay.

Hezbollah ... gay. Las FARC ... gay. ETA ... gay. The IRA ... gay. Why do gay people keep starting violence in all the world. Poor, peace-loving straight men suffer as we violent, angry gays wreak havoc on all the world.

Remember that crazy lady who murdered her kids in the bathtub? A lesbian!

I find it remarkable that people in your area are so perceptive that they can detect gay persons on the street without any obvious outward signs. That isn't meant to be a snipe at you, it just surprises me. If I were to walk down the street beside a man I would need to be displaying rather more overt homosexual traits for anyone to start directing abuse at me. Have these people never even had male company themselves of any kind?

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:36 PM
I find it remarkable that people in your area are so perceptive that they can detect gay persons on the street without any obvious outward signs. That isn't meant to be a snipe at you, it just surprises me. If I were to walk down the street beside a man I would need to be displaying rather more overt homosexual traits for anyone to start directing abuse at me. Have these people never even had male company themselves of any kind?
They probably get it wrong and hurl abuse at a lot of straight people too

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:37 PM
Because, as I have said, I suspect it would be of benefit to young gay kids trying to sort out the turmoil of their lives to have a positive role model in sports to look up to and basically say "it's okay to be gay"

I do care about other people than myself, you know.

*shrug*
OK I get you now. ;) I must say that you turned out OK yourself without any gay tennis role models, so I'm sure those kids will do OK. :D

scoobs
08-25-2006, 05:38 PM
OK I get you now. ;) I must say that you turned out OK yourself without any gay tennis role models, so I'm sure those kids will do OK. :D
Perhaps.

It could have been easier though. I wish it could be easier for those who still have to go through it.

Allez
08-25-2006, 05:38 PM
As I said before, we most definitely deserve all the hatred and insults because let's face it, we're the reason civilization is crumbling. Most terrorists are gay. Most people starting wars are gay. Most dead-beat dads are gay. Most men on death row are gay.

Hezbollah ... gay. Las FARC ... gay. ETA ... gay. The IRA ... gay. Why do gay people keep starting violence in all the world. Poor, peace-loving straight men suffer as we violent, angry gays wreak havoc on all the world.

Remember that crazy lady who murdered her kids in the bathtub? A lesbian!

Don't forget Dubya. He's gay too :D

boingboing
08-25-2006, 05:43 PM
Don't forget Dubya. He's gay too

:haha:

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 05:46 PM
I find it remarkable that people in your area are so perceptive that they can detect gay persons on the street without any obvious outward signs. That isn't meant to be a snipe at you, it just surprises me. If I were to walk down the street beside a man I would need to be displaying rather more overt homosexual traits for anyone to start directing abuse at me. Have these people never even had male company themselves of any kind?

Maybe things are different in your country ...

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 05:48 PM
Maybe things are different in your country ...

No, I suspect I just live in a place that's a little smaller, a little quieter.... in a big city it would probably be different. I certainly wouldn't want to claim Britain as a haven of homosexual tolerance. My God, the level of homophobia at my secondary school was almost ridiculous (and that was in the same place I live now). It made me wonder what on earth the kids' parents were pouring into their ears at home to achieve that level of indoctrination.

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 05:54 PM
No, I suspect I just live in a place that's a little smaller, a little quieter.... in a big city it would probably be different. I certainly wouldn't want to claim Britain as a haven of homosexual tolerance. My God, the level of homophobia at my secondary school was almost ridiculous (and that was in the same place I live now). It made me wonder what on earth the kids' parents were pouring into their ears at home to achieve that level of indoctrination.

I think fashion is Europe is a bit different than in the US. Using very broad generalizations, the straight American male "look" is more different from the gay American "look", whereas in Europe the two "looks" are not as strikingly dissimilar.

As an example, people in the US are never really surprised to learn that I am gay, but in Europe, I had casual friends for a month or two who really were surprised when I told them I was gay. Men in Europe tend to be more metrosexual ... and I think that's a GREAT thing. I've only been to the Continent ... don't know what the UK is like.

In either case, it's tragic that people would scream and yell at us just for being gay. It's not like I chose to born a "civilization destroyer who rapes little children and asphixiates rodents in his ass".

Frederick16
08-25-2006, 05:57 PM
in sweden all the gays are hoping that freddie ljungberg is gay, because he is a underwear model ... :p

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 06:02 PM
I think fashion is Europe is a bit different than in the US. Using very broad generalizations, the straight American male "look" is more different from the gay American "look", whereas in Europe the two "looks" are not as strikingly dissimilar.

As an example, people in the US are never really surprised to learn that I am gay, but in Europe, I had casual friends for a month or two who really were surprised when I told them I was gay. Men in Europe tend to be more metrosexual ... and I think that's a GREAT thing. I've only been to the Continent ... don't know what the UK is like.

In either case, it's tragic that people would scream and yell at us just for being gay. It's not like I chose to born a "civilization destroyer who rapes little children and asphixiates rodents in his ass".

My fashion sense is slim to non-existent, so I wouldn't know the difference between "looks" unless it was so obvious that it verged on parody.

Did people really say those kinds of things around you? I remember I was told quite bluntly about gay people when I was young by my father after I asked him about it, so homosexuality was neither A Good Thing nor A Bad Thing, and that's pretty much the attitude I have now. I don't know why other families couldn't manage to keep it that simple.

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 06:02 PM
in sweden all the gays are hoping that freddie ljungberg is gay, because he is a underwear model ... :p

Would they forgive or embrace some of those past haircuts, though? ;)

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 06:13 PM
My fashion sense is slim to non-existent, so I wouldn't know the difference between "looks" unless it was so obvious that it verged on parody.

Did people really say those kinds of things around you? I remember I was told quite bluntly about gay people when I was young by my father after I asked him about it, so homosexuality was neither A Good Thing nor A Bad Thing, and that's pretty much the attitude I have now. I don't know why other families couldn't manage to keep it that simple.

The Bible Belt is different. I've escaped it, thank God! But even my own family says things about gay people being sick, evil, disgusting, etc. It's constant. Gays are hated by religious people in the South. We're absolutely abhorred. It's nice to be free of it. :)

And I have yet to meet any gay people who **** children, stick rodents in their butts, eat each other's poop, or destroy civilization.

However, I have met plenty of great gay guys here in DC who are bright, smart, fashionable, ambitious and interesting. But hopefully one day I'll find someone who wants to do the gerbil thing with me ... I'm still looking to find those freaks that I was told were so common among the gays.

daze11
08-25-2006, 07:14 PM
wow, a thread that started today on an essentially non-tennis topic which has hit page 11 even when the boards are entirely slow....

and with the ridiculously clueless (plus mean-spirited) responses we can just see here in this tiny cross section of world views, it is obvious why a gay player would not be coming out.

just the suggestion that some people think there is a shortage of gays even in the top 30 much less 200 is laugh-inducing....its one of the very gayest sports. always has been, always will be. any sport based on stroking balls while messaging a stick and grunting will probably produce gays, in fact.

i'd love to see someone challenge the 'ban' on gay public lifestyle issues in the atp, but since i generally think its best they keep as much of their private life out of the sick media...and by this, i mean all the players....i guess i wouldnt personally suggest it. no question, it would be a big deal for public perception should one decide to take it on. i just think gay posters should be fully aware that its a mission to take something like that on, and certainly not expect it.

the gay guys have ridiculous pressure already just by having to dodge the scrutiny of their positions...and in some cultures, like south american countries, obscene ridicule would be added to the burden. and whoever said that an out gay tennis player wouldnt face physical harm for letting it be known is making a gigantic assumption...there are many states in the US where your safety would absolutely be an issue, not to mention throughout much of the world.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 07:20 PM
Not to forget the possible impact that coming out could have on endorsement deals and such. I am not saying that that is a good reason to stay in the closet, but it is a reason. Athletes, in my opinion, and I am sure there are many who disagree with me on this point, are in it for the money, first and foremost. Perhaps not initially, but eventually. And coming out of the closet could have a very real impact on that aspect of their lives.

daze11
08-25-2006, 07:34 PM
Not to forget the possible impact that coming out could have on endorsement deals and such. I am not saying that that is a good reason to stay in the closet, but it is a reason. Athletes, in my opinion, and I am sure there are many who disagree with me on this point, are in it for the money, first and foremost. Perhaps not initially, but eventually. And coming out of the closet could have a very real impact on that aspect of their lives.it would be a big impact financially but i imagine your comfort level with your fellow professionals, the players & just the people in tennis, would be a deterrant.

and being an individual sport makes it harder also, cuz it SEEMS like you dont have anyone to answer to, but you also dont have a team to hide behind & protect you. its kinda open season. i'm out, but i would hate to be one of the guys dealing with that issue on tour...

Tommy_Babyboy
08-25-2006, 08:32 PM
Well anyway I dont think there are very many gays among tennis players..
In Top100 - may be 4-5.
7 max

cmurray
08-25-2006, 09:03 PM
I guess I should add that if one of the top players DID come out, I would applaud his courage. There is no doubt that there are some fans out there who would change allegiance. Why it would make a damn bit of difference to their likability, I have no idea, but I suspect it would.

LoveFifteen
08-25-2006, 09:07 PM
I just hope when an ATP pro finally comes out, his serve isn't like Dementieva's. :lol:

Deboogle!.
08-25-2006, 09:09 PM
They have done NOTHING for Black people in the United States. They have not given back to their people in any way. They are not heroes. Young people have no need to think of them as such.I'm not a Serena fan AT ALL. But this is untrue. Just today, Serena did a clinic in Harlem.
http://www.wireimage.com/GalleryListing.asp?navtyp=gls====207143&nbc1=1

Ok, carry along with the ridiculousness onw.

cmurray
08-25-2006, 09:10 PM
I just hope when an ATP pro finally comes out, his serve isn't like Dementieva's. :lol:


Please. NOBODY'S serve is like Dementieva's. How in the world that girl manages to win matches is beyond me. She has the weakest second serve I've ever seen. Yikes.

Sjengster
08-25-2006, 09:10 PM
I just hope when an ATP pro finally comes out, his serve isn't like Dementieva's. :lol:

Nah, I think Volandri proves that ATP pros can like women and still serve uselessly.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 09:13 PM
I'm not a Serena fan AT ALL. But this is untrue. Just today, Serena did a clinic in Harlem.
http://www.wireimage.com/GalleryListing.asp?navtyp=gls====207143&nbc1=1

Ok, carry along with the ridiculousness onw.

I wonder if your intrusion of fact upon rhetoric has pleased certain posters, debs :)

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 09:14 PM
I just hope when an ATP pro finally comes out, his serve isn't like Dementieva's. :lol:Carla's not likely to be a cover-up; I think you're safe. :lol:

Johnny Groove
08-25-2006, 09:15 PM
I read this thread, and I must imput my feelings on the issue.

I myself being a straight male, and have absolutely no problem with gay people. If they want to flaunt their fashions, hold hands in the street, come out, play on the ATP tour, etc, whatever, thats fine. As scoobs has said throughout the thread (and I think 0-15 as well) is that if there was a gay player on the tour that came out, he would be a role model for all the other kids in the closet afraid that their friends, parents or whatever might dishone them. If there is a role model like that, he can show young kids that its ok to be gay, you can still succeed in life. As 0-15 pointed out many times, he grew up in the South, a place of historic discrimination. Some people are like that and throw shit at people on the sidewalk and are just intolerant. If its their parents, the schools, who knows.

This was a great thread premise (although done before many times) and elicited some good responses from both sides and enlightened some people on what the other side thinks. Of course, this being MTF, and GM in particular, it had to degenerate to name-calling and shit-slinging (Law 14 :p )

Deboogle!.
08-25-2006, 09:16 PM
I wonder if your intrusion of fact upon rhetoric has pleased certain posters, debs :)Well, I hope so. Facts always win :rocker2: :lol::lol::lol:

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 09:20 PM
:haha: her serve is not so good, but the rest of her game is stunning! I would be a proud gayman if I had her game :) ;)

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 09:23 PM
I read this thread, and I must imput my feelings on the issue.

I myself being a straight male, and have absolutely no problem with gay people. If they want to flaunt their fashions, hold hands in the street, come out, play on the ATP tour, etc, whatever, thats fine. As scoobs has said throughout the thread (and I think 0-15 as well) is that if there was a gay player on the tour that came out, he would be a role model for all the other kids in the closet afraid that their friends, parents or whatever might dishone them. If there is a role model like that, he can show young kids that its ok to be gay, you can still succeed in life. As 0-15 pointed out many times, he grew up in the South, a place of historic discrimination. Some people are like that and throw shit at people on the sidewalk and are just intolerant. If its their parents, the schools, who knows.
(Law 14 :p )

:yeah:

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 09:27 PM
I'm not a Serena fan AT ALL. But this is untrue. Just today, Serena did a clinic in Harlem.
http://www.wireimage.com/GalleryListing.asp?navtyp=gls====207143&nbc1=1

Ok, carry along with the ridiculousness onw.That's very nice of her, but the point of having a black role model is not that she singles out black people to help, but that she sets a good example by being successful herself. That said, it's great that she's bringing her example to their attention and encouraging them :yeah:, but even if she didn't I wouldn't say she has done nothing and isn't a hero(ine).

Thanks for the link, Deb.

Deboogle!.
08-25-2006, 09:33 PM
That's very nice of her, but the point of having a black role model is not that she singles out black people to help, but that she sets a good example by being successful herself. That said, it's great that she's bringing her example to their attention and encouraging them :yeah:, but even if she didn't I wouldn't say she has done nothing and isn't a hero(ine).

Thanks for the link, Deb.Well if that was the original poster's point, it didn't come across like that at all, and it's not what he/she said: "They have done NOTHING for Black people in the United States. They have not given back to their people in any way."

I think holding a clinic with a bunch of junior Black players in Harlem quite clearly shows that statement taken literally is false.

World Beater
08-25-2006, 09:46 PM
Unless you're in some sort of minority status, you probably won't understand. In fact, clearly you don't.

People fighting for equal status under the law and in the eyes of society need visible role models as a symbol to rally round and inspire, and to be at the vanguard of change.

It's not accidental that names like Rosa Perks and Martin Luther King are revered in the United States by the black community for their commitment to bringing about difficult change.

if i understand you correctly, then why is it important that atptennis players come out and announce their orientation when others in wnba, and other sports have done so already. If you aren't looking up to them just for their tennis, and more of a role model, then it shouldn't matter what sport they play. All that matters is that he/she is famous in a positive way, be it sports, acting or business.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 09:53 PM
if i understand you correctly, then why is it important that atptennis players come out and announce their orientation when others in wnba, and other sports have done so already. If you aren't looking up to them just for their tennis, and more of a role model, then it shouldn't matter what sport they play. All that matters is that he/she is famous in a positive way, be it sports, acting or business.

It is because he just piles and piles bullshit to try to justify the crap answers baseless he previously gave.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 09:58 PM
if i understand you correctly, then why is it important that atptennis players come out and announce their orientation when others in wnba, and other sports have done so already. If you aren't looking up to them just for their tennis, and more of a role model, then it shouldn't matter what sport they play. All that matters is that he/she is famous in a positive way, be it sports, acting or business.
A perceived double-standard for gays and lesbians, perhaps? :shrug: It is slightly curious that there are so many more out lesbians in the sport as opposed to gay men.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 10:00 PM
if i understand you correctly, then why is it important that atptennis players come out and announce their orientation when others in wnba, and other sports have done so already. If you aren't looking up to them just for their tennis, and more of a role model, then it shouldn't matter what sport they play. All that matters is that he/she is famous in a positive way, be it sports, acting or business.
Because they're not sports I follow at all?

If people follow wnba or whatever and have out gay stars to look up to for that sort of inspiration, cool.

scoobs
08-25-2006, 10:01 PM
A perceived double-standard for gays and lesbians, perhaps? :shrug: It is slightly curious that there are so many more out lesbians in the sport as opposed to gay men.
There's also that point yes. There's plenty of out gay women in sport, and hardly any out gay men.

TennisAgenda
08-25-2006, 10:02 PM
The homophobia on this board is just a pefect example of the prejudice against gay men in society. Civil rights activists such as Billie Jean King, Rosa Parks, Martina Navratilova took a stand. There are always going to be bigots out there we know that. Gay men are discriminated in the sports arena because straight men have the false assumption gay men can't be good athletes. Yet we know there are gay male atheltes competing at the highest level in sports. Its really the sexism and the bigotry of STRAIGHT MEN that keep gay men in the closet.


These women understood for a better society somebody had to take the first GIANT STEP FORWARD. Did you know back in the early 1970s a woman couldn't get a credit card without her husband? Or the fact the WTA was crucified by sexist men in the media. Billie Jean King STARTED the WTA and she fought sexism as well. When Billie's lover outed her in 1981 she didn't deny it and Billie Jean thrived. And on Monday Billie Jean King will have the main Stadium at the US OPEN named after her. So people like King are true role models. Billie, and Martina know that when they came out as lesbians they would face homophobia and they did. However, people's perceptions changed they realized Martina and Billie Jean as just people that happen to be gay. And this can happen on the ATP tour if some gay guys take a stand. Yes they could encounter homophobia but as time passes it will fade. Amelie Mauresmo can out so simply and it never hurt her career. Same thing for Lisa Raymond, Gigi Fernandez, Renee Stubbs, and Conchita Martinez.

NYCtennisfan
08-25-2006, 10:02 PM
Fee very succinctly answered why players don't come out (as there are surely some in the top 100) on tour. Any male who has ever played at a reasonably high level in a structured setting in basically any sport knows why it would be difficult for a man to come out.

What is the biggest insult that any male gives to another male when they don't play well, or they mess up? I can't speak for other places/cultures, but if an American born and raised in the States or someone who has grown up here and is essentially American is reading this right now, they know right away what the biggest insult is: fag or faggot. This is the single most devestating thing one player can say to another if they want to demean them. You play like a girl. You play like a fag.

I played football, basketball, and tennis throughout high school and little bit of football and tennis in my first year in college. The lounge and lockerroom atmosphere that Fee alludes to was essentially the same everywhere and especially so in a sport like football. Part of it is due to the fact that many homophobic men who play sports ASSUME that other men playing sports are not gay because that doesn't fit the stereotype of the gay male. It is then seen as something harmless that you aren't really insulting anyone. Of course, if it was found out that a fellow teammate WAS gay, then, from my experience at least, that person would be pretty much exiled from the team.

I cannot speak for gay people since I am not gay, but I can imagine how tough it would be to be in an environment where a big part of who you were was considered the lowest and most pathetic thing a man could be. Would a top player in any sport coming out possibly become a great role model? Most probably. Would it take a hell of a lot of courage and knowing that most everything would be different after you do so? Yes.

World Beater
08-25-2006, 10:05 PM
A perceived double-standard for gays and lesbians, perhaps? :shrug: It is slightly curious that there are so many more out lesbians in the sport as opposed to gay men.

ok i see...its not necc tennis. But the fact that gay men are more reluctant to go public.

NYCtennisfan
08-25-2006, 10:05 PM
A perceived double-standard for gays and lesbians, perhaps? :shrug: It is slightly curious that there are so many more out lesbians in the sport as opposed to gay men.

A lesbian excelling in sports IS the stereotype. A gay male excelling in sports is the antithesis of the stereotype. I think it makes a huge difference when it comes to who comes out and who doesn't.

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 10:07 PM
A lesbian excelling in sports IS the stereotype. A gay male excelling in sports is the antithesis of the stereotype. I think it makes a huge difference when it comes to who comes out and who doesn't.
Isn't that what I posted, but in different words? :shrug:

NYCtennisfan
08-25-2006, 10:08 PM
Isn't that what I posted, but in different words? :shrug:

:lol: Probably. It's hard to work and go through an entire thread properly. :)

TennisAgenda
08-25-2006, 10:14 PM
The mainstream sports media is VERY SEXIST and there is a double standard. The stereotype is that there are lesbians in the WNBA or the WTA. But I admire Swoopes for her grace and dignity. I applaud her for not being afraid and being out and proud. We need gay representation and Sheryl has to be commended for doing this. When Sheryl Swoopes declared she was a lesbian. The mainstream American press were indifferent to her. However, Swoopes coming out was very important.

However, by contrast gay men we are stereotyped as being weak, effeminate, not being strong or good athletes. And that's simply not true. The thing is there are gay male athletes competing at the top levels. However, STRAIGHT MEN keep these gay men in the closet. Its the FEAR of the straight man's bigotry, hatred but also fear of VIOLENCE and financial consequences is why they stay in the closet. Although, I think if the gay male tennis players came out with some grace and dignity that they could CHANGE negative perceptions of gay men in tennis and sport. There are gay male tennis champions on the ATP TOUR unforuntately there is a culture of homophobia in men's sports. And the hatred the straight men have for gay men keeps the game men silent and that causes SHAME. However, if change is ever going to happen SOMEBODY's got to take a stand. Because on the WTA the lesbians have already won the battle.

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 10:18 PM
Well if that was the original poster's point, it didn't come across like that at all, and it's not what he/she said: "They have done NOTHING for Black people in the United States. They have not given back to their people in any way."

I think holding a clinic with a bunch of junior Black players in Harlem quite clearly shows that statement taken literally is false.Yes, I took the original poster's point to mean: she hasn't done anything like clinics with junior black players in Harlem, therefore she hasn't done anything for black people. You argued against the premise--yes, she has done such things--while I argued against the validity of the conclusion--regardless of whether she's singled out black people to be the beneficiaries of her time & money, she has still benefited them and can fairly be called a hero.

Deboogle!.
08-25-2006, 10:20 PM
Yes, I took the original poster's point to mean: she hasn't done anything like clinics with junior black players in Harlem, therefore she hasn't done anything for black people. You argued against the premise--yes, she has done such things--while I argued against the validity of the conclusion--regardless of whether she's singled out black people to be the beneficiaries of her time & money, she has still benefited them and can fairly be called a hero.okay, fine. I was just taking the poster at his/her word; I can't presume to know what was actually meant, but what the words meant to me. I didn't say she was a hero, but she has clearly done things for Black people when the original poster says she has not. End.

Crip Walk Blunt
08-25-2006, 10:21 PM
The mainstream sports media is VERY SEXIST and there is a double standard. The stereotype is that there are lesbians in the WNBA or the WTA. But I admire Swoopes for her grace and dignity. I applaud her for not being afraid and being out and proud. We need gay representation and Sheryl has to be commended for doing this. When Sheryl Swoopes declared she was a lesbian. The mainstream American press were indifferent to her. However, Swoopes coming out was very important.

However, by contrast gay men we are stereotyped as being weak, effeminate, not being strong or good athletes. And that's simply not true. The thing is there are gay male athletes competing at the top levels. However, STRAIGHT MEN keep these gay men in the closet. Its the FEAR of the straight man's bigotry, hatred but also fear of VIOLENCE and financial consequences is why they stay in the closet. Although, I think if the gay male tennis players came out with some grace and dignity that they could CHANGE negative perceptions of gay men in tennis and sport. There are gay male tennis champions on the ATP TOUR unforuntately there is a culture of homophobia in men's sports. And the hatred the straight men have for gay men keeps the game men silent and that causes SHAME. However, if change is ever going to happen SOMEBODY's got to take a stand. Because on the WTA the lesbians have already won the battle.

Stop acting a fool and trying to play the victim. Yes, we are keeping you in the closet. :rolleyes:

Phunkadelicious
08-25-2006, 10:23 PM
Athene, do you know how to derive "something" from "nothing"?

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 10:24 PM
:lol: Probably. It's hard to work and go through an entire thread properly. :)Especially when one has so many people on ignore now...or is that just me? ;)

Daniel25
08-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Just for some relaxing moments between the serious (and good and interesting) discussions, check out
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=84074&page=3&pp=15

Some nics pics;) After that, discuss further! With a clear head :)

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 10:25 PM
okay, fine. I was just taking the poster at his/her word; I can't presume to know what was actually meant, but what the words meant to me. I didn't say she was a hero, but she has clearly done things for Black people when the original poster says she has not. End.We both made valid points, and between us the logic of the original post has been blasted. End. :wavey: (Where's a high-five smiley when you need one?)

atheneglaukopis
08-25-2006, 10:26 PM
Just for some relaxing moments between the serious (and good and interesting) discussions, check out
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=84074&page=3&pp=15

Some nics pics;) After that, discuss further! With a clear head :)Hottest => most likely to be gay. OMG, Marat, we knew it all along!

lebby
08-25-2006, 11:22 PM
Lol. How many guys are gay in MTF? It seems surely above the average.

LoveFifteen
08-26-2006, 12:47 AM
Fee very succinctly answered why players don't come out (as there are surely some in the top 100) on tour. Any male who has ever played at a reasonably high level in a structured setting in basically any sport knows why it would be difficult for a man to come out.

What is the biggest insult that any male gives to another male when they don't play well, or they mess up? I can't speak for other places/cultures, but if an American born and raised in the States or someone who has grown up here and is essentially American is reading this right now, they know right away what the biggest insult is: fag or faggot. This is the single most devestating thing one player can say to another if they want to demean them. You play like a girl. You play like a fag.

I played football, basketball, and tennis throughout high school and little bit of football and tennis in my first year in college. The lounge and lockerroom atmosphere that Fee alludes to was essentially the same everywhere and especially so in a sport like football. Part of it is due to the fact that many homophobic men who play sports ASSUME that other men playing sports are not gay because that doesn't fit the stereotype of the gay male. It is then seen as something harmless that you aren't really insulting anyone. Of course, if it was found out that a fellow teammate WAS gay, then, from my experience at least, that person would be pretty much exiled from the team.

I cannot speak for gay people since I am not gay, but I can imagine how tough it would be to be in an environment where a big part of who you were was considered the lowest and most pathetic thing a man could be. Would a top player in any sport coming out possibly become a great role model? Most probably. Would it take a hell of a lot of courage and knowing that most everything would be different after you do so? Yes.


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

lebby
08-26-2006, 12:53 AM
Plenty of gays here in MTF. Seems above the average. Nice thread BTW.

LoveFifteen
08-26-2006, 12:54 AM
Lol. How many guys are gay in MTF? It seems surely above the average.

There are more gay tennis fans per capita than gays in the general population per capita. That's just the way it is. :)

atheneglaukopis
08-26-2006, 12:56 AM
Plenty of gays here in MTF. Seems above the average. Nice thread BTW."Seems" may be the operative word, depending on what you're contrasting it with. The anonymity of a message board, especially a largely populated one, surely helps.

Dusk Soldier
08-26-2006, 01:05 AM
Of course it's OUR fault when we're verbally abused or have things thrown at us by complete strangers.OR it just could've been some random dooshes out egging people.

Because people who through stuff from cars only do it to gay people. :rolleyes:

Dusk Soldier
08-26-2006, 01:06 AM
They were shouting "faggot" when they did it. But thank you for making yourself look like an ass, and saving me the effort. :)
yes because teenage guys don't spam that word at all. :rolleyes:

TenHound
08-26-2006, 01:23 AM
I don't see comparing a tennis locker room to that of a guys team sports. There you have different dynamics since guys are teammates, whereas in tennis they are all competitors anyway.

I would think the main problem driving the ostracism in tennis would be from fear of loss of revenue if the player weren't ostracized. Guys in tennis seems to have this ridiculous hangup about tennis since it's not a contact sport, so they often feel their "masculinity" questioned. If a guy came out in that context, the other guys would probably over-compensate to be sure sponsors money didn't start to move elsewhere. But otherwise not care much; unlike team sports where male bonding is such a critical issue.

And the tennis locker room definitely cannot be compared to a ThugBall (aka football) locker room, 'cuz football is driven by homoerotic anxiety.

star
08-26-2006, 01:40 AM
I've had people throw stuff at me from a car. :shrug: I suppose I just made that up in my head? And no, I wasn't wearing a dress, or a shirt that said "BIG FAT QUEER THAT TAKES IT UP THE ASS." I was with my boyfriend. We weren't even holding hands.

Try being a bicycle rider. You'll get even more crap from people driving cars. They throw beer cans, shout lewd things, and try to run you off the shoulder of the road. I even had a passenger in a car try to grab one of my braids as I was riding at the side of the road. He would have killed me if he had gotten it.

It's ridiculous to say, oh if you are gay just go out and kiss and hold hands and act naturally. Bad, bad things happen to gay people sometimes for no reason at all. I can see why there is fear in some quarters. And locker rooms aren't kind understanding warm places. They are places where people say things like "I played like a girl." and "Happy as a fag in a submarine." Where players shout "fag" as an insult at linesmen. I don't think I would really want to come out while I was in there either. AND, oh my god, can you imagine how it would hurt a guy's earning power. Tennis players have only a few short years to make the dough and snatch up endorsement deals.

Yeah, it would be great if there were a person at the top who was respected by everyone who came out, but what are the chances?

I totally understand how it would be wonderful for a young teen who is feeling like he is the only one in the world who has ever been different to have a professional athlete come out. It would be awesome. It would be awesome to have strong masculine men (Rock Hudson comes to mind) come out of the closet and speak of their sexuality. There are all sorts of gay men and if you've ever lived in a part of a city where gays feel accepted and flock, you have seen that.

And for everyone on here who has said disparaging or insensitive things, just think for a moment how much mental suffering most boys go through when they are coming to terms with being gay. It's no accident that the suicide rate among gay teens is higher than the norm. Do you really want to inflict any more pain... no matter how trivial on someone who has endured something you might not be able to bear and come out on the other side a whole functioning human being? huh? Do you really want to do that?

Allez
08-26-2006, 07:50 AM
2a. But let me bring in an example here. Would it be safe to assume that if my fellow classmates in grade school, many of whom were baseball fanatics, had seen and admired a big-name Japanese baseball player like Suzuki Ichirou back in the 1980s as much as they did Jose Canseco that they would have been more likely to think twice before calling me "chink" or "Jap" or "dog eater" (among other things)? Would it be illogical to assume that the more representation people from diverse backgrounds receive in the mainstream culture - be it in television, sports, politics, and the like - that many people will be less likely to hold ignorant misconceptions about entire groups of people with whom some of them have never even met or interacted? Would people in a minority benefit from seeing their point of view and life experiences represented and respected as much as those of the majority in their home society? Of course. For instance, why else have women celebrated over the fact that over the past few decades we've been seeing more and more women in higher positions of business and government?


That's a powerful argument right there :worship: However I still maintain that for the player concerned it's neither good or bad if they remain in the closet (it‘s whatever they choose to make out of it), but I can see the benefits of their coming out would be to the wider society. I’m arguing for individual rights and the right of individual players to remain in the closet without being called cowards or eliciting feelings of disappointment from people who have zero to do with them. Your arguments are about the benefits other people who have nothing to do with the said players would gain from these players coming out (if they exist at all). It is a good argument I have to admit even though I feel instead of being disappointed with the players who freely choose to remain in the closet why not be disappointed with the parents, the teachers and others who have a direct day to day responsibility of bringing up the kids and teaching them tolerance and all these other things that would make our society a better place to live for everyone ? It’s their duty to teach kids that it is OK to be gay, straight, Korean, black, white, Chinese etc. If you choose to have a child it’s your responsibility to bring them up in the best possible way so that they can be the best possible human beings they can be. A child should not have to have watch tv to know that it is OK to be who and what they are.

lleyrules
08-26-2006, 11:47 AM
What do you think Nike would do if one of its biggest tennis stars (no one in particular, just a hypothesis) came out of the closet? Martina N is one of the most visible and popular tennis stars on the planet, whether or not she wins matches, and she played without a clothing contract for almost 2 years until she got some money from Under Armour.[/QUOTE]

Rumour was that Nike dropped one of its top tennis players recently because of gay rumours.

vincayou
08-26-2006, 12:16 PM
Gay players should play with pink raquets.

LoveFifteen
08-26-2006, 12:19 PM
Gay players should play with pink raquets.

And 1970's short shorts! :drool:

Johnny Groove
08-26-2006, 12:27 PM
J'torian :hug:
0-15 :hug:
Scoobs :hug:

I love reading intelligent threads on MTF (as rare as they are :o ). But every once in a while, a smart thread comes along and I learn something I wasnt even thinking about. The fact that some people hate gay people for no reason other that previous misinformation and bs discrimination in this day and age is appalling. I really wish that more people would come to terms that gay people are just the same as straights. We're all human beings put on the same planet to survive. Myself? Ive been the butt of racist jokes many a time in my life being a Brazilian-Haitian 50-50 mix. (dog eater, voodoo man, stupid spick, etc. etc.) Hopefully one day everyone can live together peacefully without having to hate people just because of where they come from, sexual orientation, skin color, religion, whatever. Wouldnt that be a happy day? :wavey:

o, happy day..............o happy day.........when jesus walked...............

LoveFifteen
08-26-2006, 01:57 PM
^^^

I love you. :hug:

Fee
08-26-2006, 04:22 PM
What do you think Nike would do if one of its biggest tennis stars (no one in particular, just a hypothesis) came out of the closet? Martina N is one of the most visible and popular tennis stars on the planet, whether or not she wins matches, and she played without a clothing contract for almost 2 years until she got some money from Under Armour.

Rumour was that Nike dropped one of its top tennis players recently because of gay rumours.

Is that why Lleyton wears Yonex now?

(yes, I'm kidding. 'rumors' are rarely true, especially in tennis)

Fee
08-26-2006, 04:24 PM
J'torian :hug:
0-15 :hug:
Scoobs :hug:

I love reading intelligent threads on MTF (as rare as they are :o ). But every once in a while, a smart thread comes along and I learn something I wasnt even thinking about. The fact that some people hate gay people for no reason other that previous misinformation and bs discrimination in this day and age is appalling. I really wish that more people would come to terms that gay people are just the same as straights. We're all human beings put on the same planet to survive. Myself? Ive been the butt of racist jokes many a time in my life being a Brazilian-Haitian 50-50 mix. (dog eater, voodoo man, stupid spick, etc. etc.) Hopefully one day everyone can live together peacefully without having to hate people just because of where they come from, sexual orientation, skin color, religion, whatever. Wouldnt that be a happy day? :wavey:

o, happy day..............o happy day.........when jesus walked...............

you're a brazilian-haitian mix? Oh, no way we can be friends... ;) You owe me a PM, I'm not worried or anything... :hug:

Tommy_Babyboy
08-26-2006, 05:11 PM
And 1970's short shorts!
And topless :D

Hank777
08-26-2006, 05:33 PM
For crying out loud. They owe you nothing. Get that? NOTHING! They could ALL be gay, every last one of them, and if they want to keep that information to themselves, so be it. They are atheletes, and their job is to play tennis, not to cater to whatever whims you decide are important.

I will say this, though, because I feel like it needs to be said. The homosexual community is forever wishing people out of the closet, fairly salivating over the idea that Andy roddick or Rafa or Federer is gay. Do you think they appreciate it? Any of them? I can tell you right now that they don't. Even if one or all were gay, pushing at them with pointing fingers and knowing looks isn't going to make them want to come out. And what if they AREN'T gay? A person's sexuality is inextricably tied to his or her man or womanhood. For those of you who are homosexual, how would you feel if somebody walked up to you every day and said, "Why don't you just admit that you're straight. I can tell by the way you walk and dress. You aren't fooling anyone." You'd get mad, not because you are heterophobic, but because somebody is questioning what you are at your core.

Cheryl


Well put, I second this. TENNIS = TENNIS, not a podium for flaunting whatever you want.

Next thing you know, SOME POLITICIAN, is going to come to the boards saying there are right wing or left wing nuts on the ATP and that they should come out and profile their political beliefs. That's just BS.

Tennis = about Tennis

senorgato
08-26-2006, 05:50 PM
Great. Just what we need. More reason for people to call tennis the "gay sport".

Conita
08-26-2006, 09:58 PM
ok ive just read the 14 1/2 pages of this thread!
i would say im shocked but im not cos its MTF everything kinda goes...

To the point of discussion on this thread, i understand why gay people would want a pro tennis player to come out and be followed as a role model.
I dont understand why is this such a problem for a few
"tennis" fans in here.
yes of course u have role models on court because of their tennis but it's ever so nice to see someone that u can relate to in more than one just way succeeding and whatever it is.
For example why do many people support players from their country?
it is not just because of their tennis it is because u relate to them and it makes u proud to see them win and i know for a fact that im not alone with this one its just a matter of checking people's firms.
Now how is that any different from wanting to have a gay player to support?
its completly understandable.

Why don't they come? out i'll put it down to pressure, some1 said ealier in the thread coming out as a "normal" person is very hard for most gay people, to do it while the world is watching must be even harder. Recently the ex NSYNK member Lance Bass came out, when asked why he hadnt come out before he said because he didnt want to dissapoint fans or decrease the success of the band.

I know that's music and this is sport but it is the media and the fans at what im pointing at, u dont have to look far on this thread alone, to see why a gay tennis player may not want to come out, if he was gay.
looking at some very homophobic posts on here i can't imagine the pressure they may have upon their shoulders of disapointing their fans and not only by comming out but also by staying in the closet.
I think it's unfair of some here to judge them for whatever decission they take. I don't know if there are gay players inside the top 100 but i do know that if there was, we have no idea what they might be going through and it's not my or your place to say whether they should come out or not.
It is in fact a very personal thing and as much as some of you would want them to come out, from a very understandable point of view, it is important to remember that it is a hard choice to make and it must be respected.

and also stop GENERALISING!
I am straight and very much religious (Christian) and one of my best friends is gay and as camp as u can be. in fact most of my friends are gay, and just like you dont like to be generalized neither do i! it goes both ways everytime!

TennisAgenda
08-27-2006, 05:45 AM
It is about relating to someone. I really think the lesbians on the WTA are amazing. People talk about facing a backlash the lesbians on the WTA did in the 1970s and 1980s but after that its easy to be a lesbian on the WTA. So many Wimbledon champions are lesbians such as Conchita Martinez, Novotna, Navratilova, King and of course the great Amelie Mauresmo. The lesbians are so lucky they got the no.1 player in the world is an out lesbian and current Wimbledon and Australian Open champion. Do you know how amazing that is? Its incredible for lesbian visability and its great for gay representation. Amelie just came out smoothly she didn't make a big deal about it but she doesn't hide her lesbianism. She has a new girlfriend Geraldine an older woman and they live in Switzerland. Amelie has a huge following and people accept her as a tennis player that just happens to be gay. But they applaud her for her courage.

On the ATP tour you would think it would be easier to come out. Its an individual sport afterall. It would be great if the no.1 player or a top player was out and proud just like Amelie Mauresmo is. It would shatter a lot of stereotypes about gay men in tennis and sport overall. Its kind of sad though that the only gay tennis player that was ever out was Bill Tilden and that was almost one hundred years ago. Tidlen had more courage in the roaring 1920s then the current ATP pros in the year 2006.
Its hard to respect those closeted male tennis players when the lesbians on the WTA encountered sexism, bigotry, homophobia yet they survived and thrived.

Fee
08-27-2006, 06:50 AM
So, you haven't read the posts in this thread have you? It's already been explained why its not easy for an ATP player, or any male athlete outside of figure skating, to come out.

As for women, that's been explained too, but I'll remind you 1) the assumption that female athletes are lesbians anyway and 2) the lack of a shock factor towards lesbianism these days considering 'Girls gone wild' videos and the inclusion of girl/girl scenes in almost every porn video geared towards men.

But Jordanjames/TennisAgenda, you already started this discussion the last time you were here, why did you feel the need to do it again? Is that the only reason you came back?

TULY
08-27-2006, 07:10 AM
Its the same story...gays claim everyone is gay and so on.
Yes, there are Atp tennis gay players maybe in top 10 or top 20 who know? And from my point of view I live good in this way too without know others private thinghs!

Allez
08-27-2006, 07:42 AM
Well put, I second this. TENNIS = TENNIS, not a podium for flaunting whatever you want.

Next thing you know, SOME POLITICIAN, is going to come to the boards saying there are right wing or left wing nuts on the ATP and that they should come out and profile their political beliefs. That's just BS.

Tennis = about Tennis
:worship: :worship: :worship: Neo Nazi Tennis Players should come out of the closet (I have my suspicions about ceratin players). Andy Roddick should admit to being a staunch Neo Con Republican! ;)

Io non ho paura
09-08-2006, 08:18 PM
I think this "touchy" issue for peoples :sad: I know bad stories of sportsmen who let their sex known. In Italy it is not so easy for people ignore sex.

I had friend who was gay, very talent young player he was. Potential to become one professional player. He keep his sex secret and one day someone find out :sad: his coach refuse to coach and he also refused funding to carry getting coach.

It is very tough and nasty world :( not easy for gays in this time STILL :sad:

alfonsojose
09-08-2006, 09:57 PM
I walked around cities before with my boyfriend without holding hands, and we've still been harrassed by people driving by shouting horrible things out their windows.

As I said before, we most definitely deserve all the hatred and insults because let's face it, we're the reason civilization is crumbling. Most terrorists are gay. Most people starting wars are gay. Most dead-beat dads are gay. Most men on death row are gay.

Hezbollah ... gay. Las FARC ... gay. ETA ... gay. The IRA ... gay. Why do gay people keep starting violence in all the world. Poor, peace-loving straight men suffer as we violent, angry gays wreak havoc on all the world.

Remember that crazy lady who murdered her kids in the bathtub? A lesbian!
:hug:

alfonsojose
09-08-2006, 11:59 PM
a gay husband already came out :tape:

scoobs
09-09-2006, 12:02 AM
He does look a bit effeminate. But then Justine looks masculine so I suppose it balances out :)

alfonsojose
09-09-2006, 12:08 AM
He does look a bit effeminate. But then Justine looks masculine so I suppose it balances out :)
He has bigger tits than hers

scoobs
09-09-2006, 12:11 AM
He has bigger tits than hers
well to be fair you'd get plenty of them to the pound with both of them. i've seen walls with bigger bumps.

joeb_uk
09-09-2006, 12:12 AM
He does look a bit effeminate. But then Justine looks masculine so I suppose it balances out :)

Don't compliment him "He does look a bit effeminate" He looks like a butch lesbian scoobs! You are giving him too much credit.

joeb_uk
09-09-2006, 12:13 AM
He has bigger tits than hers

haha :haha: I think I probably do too! :help:

scoobs
09-09-2006, 12:14 AM
Juju makes the sexiest wall. :drool:
J'torian, know that I adore you, and know that you scare me a little :D

alfonsojose
10-05-2006, 04:59 PM
haha :haha: I think I probably do too! :help:
:drool: :drool: show me yours

yomike
10-06-2006, 02:01 PM
My gaydar is picking up signals from Roger:devil:

hanabishi
10-06-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm sorry, I know that Andreev and Tursunov probably aren't gay, but I can't stop staring at this (found this at the Tursunov forum):
http://www.menstennisforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101080&d=1160060089

FrogBurger
10-06-2006, 02:20 PM
Interesting start of the thread. The feelings are understandable. It's a lot of pressure to put on a pro athlete, any male athlete is taking a huge risk by coming out. And surely there are some who are not entirely sure if they are gay. Would suck to come out and then not be gay. But the feelings are understandable to me at least.

FrogBurger
10-06-2006, 02:21 PM
:confused: I'm sorry, I know that Andreev and Tursunov probably aren't gay, but I can't stop staring at this (found this at the Tursunov forum):
http://www.menstennisforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101080&d=1160060089

that does look pretty gay, maybe they just really like each other but are straight? :confused:

gk_891
10-06-2006, 03:13 PM
:confused:

that does look pretty gay, maybe they just really like each other but are straight? :confused:

I've seen Russian male (and female) athletes kiss each other on the mouths before. Maybe it's a Russian thing.

rmb6687
10-06-2006, 03:54 PM
it was also sorta accidental. hahaha i love accidents.

Seleshfan
10-06-2006, 09:01 PM
Well I'm not so sure it's an accident. As long as Tursunov wears his "Great Kisser" shirt, these so-called "accidents" are bound to continue. And I, for one, hope they they continue to be caught on tape.... :inlove:

partygirl
10-07-2006, 08:21 PM
:confused:

that does look pretty gay, maybe they just really like each other but are straight? :confused:
Then that is a beautiful thing & fuckin' hot.:o ;)

ufokart
10-08-2006, 04:44 AM
It's a russian tradition to kiss in the mouth, even between males. It's not a sign of being gay.

Brezhnev did it all the time, why would Tursunov or Andreev be different? :lol:

BlueSwan
10-08-2006, 11:57 AM
Would suck to come out and then not be gay.
:haha:

cmurray
10-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Well, now I know where to go on vacation. :devil:


:lol:

Me too. 'cept I'm a girl. But if there was a shot at getting Dima or Marat to kiss me, I'd give it a shot.

atp_rears
10-08-2006, 09:41 PM
The reason why the WTA girls are less secretive is because a lot of people assume female sporty types are lesbian or less feminine, whereas for the men, sports is associated with being macho, and therefore it might be harder for a male athlete to take this step if he is gay.

Corey Feldman
10-09-2006, 03:09 AM
I have Fed wallpaper on every room in my house so..
;)

Rex
10-09-2006, 05:35 AM
the male players whom are gay should do what feels good for them, lets face it- if a high ranked player announces that he is homosexual he will get unbelievable medai attention to the extent where it could become overwhelming. This is tennis, that what they want to talk about, not about such private business. Noone wants a camera on the face for being gay when they could have it for being a great tennis player.

Lee
10-09-2006, 06:54 AM
Sorry :topic:

Tipsarevic- The tatoo of tennis, competing with moya.


I believe this title should belong to Saretta.

TennisAgenda
11-20-2006, 03:20 PM
WWW.AFTERELTON.COM

November 14th 2006

By Greg Herandez

The Association of Tennis Professionals will be unveiling a coffee table book, ATP Confidential, this December, and its promotional materials promise that the book, featuring blogs from players including Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Andy Roddick, “reveals secrets of the stars.” But don't expect any of those secrets to be that any of the men on the tennis tour are gay.

In fact, officially at least, the last known gay men's tennis champion was Bill Tilden, who won three Wimbledon and seven U.S. titles between 1920–30. “Tilden, [who] was considered the greatest male tennis player of his era, was gay, and people on the tour knew that he was gay,” says Jim Buzinski, co-founder of Outsports.com. Since then, no men's tennis players have been openly gay. There have only been rumors, speculation and plenty of wishful thinking from gay male fans who flock to the practice courts to watch such heartthrobs as Nadal, Tommy Haas and Marat Safin work out.

“I don't even know who the gay guys are, that's how much in the closet they are,” Martina Navratilova, an out lesbian during most of her 30-plus seasons on the women's tour, told us. “Some, of course, are pretending to be straight. They are afraid of the consequences.” Consequences such as losing lucrative product endorsements — as Navratilova did — or enduring homophobic hostility from fans.

“Everything that I've done, I've known what the consequences will be, but I'm willing to accept them,” Navratilova recently said to AfterEllen.com. “If I didn't come out and pretended I was someone else, what are those consequences? I would not be who I am. Not being accepted by Madison Avenue because I was a lesbian — I could accept those consequences. My guidelines are totally philosophical and what's morally right to me. I was never guided by financial gain.”

There haven't even been retired male tennis players who have come out of the closet — something that has happened in other sports with Billy Bean (baseball), Greg Louganis (diving), Rudy Galindo (figure skating), David Kopay (football) and Mark Tewksbury (swimming). All of these men went public about their sexuality after they were through competing.

“I'm sure there are gay [tennis] players in the top 100, and it's just so much easier for a man not to disclose,” says Bean. “A lot of people want to see it happen because they feel it's time, but at the end of the day, you still have to get out there in front of fans and that judgment, in addition to already being dissected for your play. If it is going to happen, tennis would be a logical destination. A tennis tournament is usually an intellectually upscale environment as compared to what an athlete would face at an NFL football game.”

The men's tour is officially opposed to any type of discrimination against its players. “The ATP fully supports all its members, regardless of ranking, age, nationality, race, religion or sexual preference,” says Pete Holtermann, senior communications manager for ATP Americas.

But the sexual preference part has yet to be tested. To date, Holtermann says he “can't think of any situation” where a player on tour is known to be gay to the other players, but is not publicly out. Still, Holtermann doesn't believe fans would have much of an issue with an out male player. “Tennis fans have shown they embrace players for who they are,” he says. “Being such an international sport, there are a multitude of nationalities and cultures represented on the ATP circuit, and tennis fans have proven to be very open to all of them. I would fully expect the same to be the case with regards to a player's sexual preference.”

Buzinski says that at the elite, pro level, “it's considered a bad career move to be out. For a woman, it seems to be different. Lesbians are given a little more freedom to do that and have their career survive. For a man, it is perceived to be career suicide.”

Bean believes that the fact that Navratilova, Amelie Mauresmo (currently ranked first in the world) and retired legend Billie Jean King are all out “reinforces the difference between the men's locker room and the female locker room, and the male athlete existing in that environment.”

With most top players in their teens and 20s, Buzinski wonders if it is too much to ask of any of them to be open about their sexual orientation as they are trying to grind out wins on the ATP tour. “Anyone who is gay knows a lot of people come out in their 20s and 30s and 40s,” he says. “Why do we expect athletes to be any different? I'm not sure they see an upside. So much of it is fear of the unknown. That is what everyone deals with. They assume it can be bad, so why do I want to add one more level of stress to an already stressful career?”

Still, there are those who are hoping for a male version of Navratilova, who was so utterly dominant during much of the 1980s that the fans, the press and fellow players had no choice but to accept her for who she was.

“I personally couldn't see what was wrong with being gay,” Navratilova said to AfterEllen.com. “I never saw being gay as a negative. I did see it as a difficulty, but I was ready to fight the good fight.”

When Mauresmo, the reigning Wimbledon and Australian Open champion, made it to her first grand slam final in Australia in 1999, she was upfront and honest about being a lesbian and having a girlfriend. But the situation became somewhat difficult for her when Martina Hingis, then the top-ranked player, made the infamous comment that Mauresmo was like “half a man.”

To add insult to injury, Hingis managed to beat the then 19-year-old Mauresmo in straight sets to win the title. But Mauresmo's sexuality was pretty much a nonissue after that, with much more focus being paid to her inability to win a major. Now that, too, is no longer an issue.

“Mauresmo has come out and been very successful,” says Buzinki. “You have [to have] the mental makeup for that and accept some possibly negative reactions. All it would take would be for a player like Roger Federer to be supportive. I'd assume younger players like Andy Roddick wouldn't have a problem with it.”

Billie Jean King agrees that support from top players in tennis or any other pro sport is crucial. “We need straight guys to say, ‘It doesn't matter, nobody cares. He's a great ballplayer, we love him, and leave him alone.' You need a couple of quarterbacks who would do that because they are usually the leader of the team. They have to say, ‘It's going to be all right.' If the straight guys don't support them, it's a tough road.”

That support has long been there on the women's tour, as King learned first-hand in the early '80s when she was outed by a former lover who sued the then-married champion for palimony. The suit was dismissed and King, by then in her late 30s, returned to the tour for a few more years, enjoying tremendous fan and player support. “The women really got along well,” King says. “ Chris Evert, she's always been a great friend. She never cared, and I think that helps.”

Veteran player Renee Stubbs, the former No. 1-ranked doubles player in the world, also enjoyed strong support from fellow players, including close friend Stefanie Graf, winner of 22 grand slam singles titles.

“I think it's a little more accepted for female athletes,” Stubbs says. “But it's a stigma attached to female athletes, which is an unfortunate thing because a lot of them aren't [gay]. The ones who have come out, like myself, it's not such a huge story. But there hasn't really been a high-profile male who's come out, and that's a shame. I'd love to see any male athlete who's well-known come out, but it's their choice. When you're trying to play a high-profile sport for a living, you don't necessarily want to deal with all of that as well. But since I've come out, I've had great support from people.”

Bean, a former member of the San Diego Padres and Los Angeles Dodgers who cut his playing days short in order to live life as an openly gay man, understands the pressures male professional athletes feel and believes people have to have patience and compassion. “None of us start in the same place and time,” he says. “When I was in a position emotionally to make it happen, the relief of living honestly and being able to give my family and friends and people I care about the opportunity to know me completely — it was just really empowering."

Still, no one seems to have a sense of whether any male tennis pro is seriously considering coming out of the closet. “I don't know if we're close,” King says. “It all depends on whether he is ready to go.”

TheMightyFed
11-20-2006, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the article.
Imagine Kolya coming out, now he would get a clothing deal !
On the fact that it's easier for women than for men to come out, I think it is related to the fact that in a one-to-one struggle like tennis, supposed feminine values like dialogue, research of consensus, etc., of a gay guy would play against him. For a lesbian, (supposed) masculine values of competition, fighting spirit etc., are not really a handicap in tennis, on the contrary.

CmonAussie
11-20-2006, 03:29 PM
Is Nadal gay ~ or is he just metro?
Is Federer gay ~ or is he just Mirko?
Is Hewitt gay ~ or is he just macho?
Is Safin gay ~ or is he just a cult leader?


#BTW, Ian Thorpe is gay~> that`s why he`s calling a press conference tomorrow><.

TennisAgenda
11-20-2006, 03:33 PM
Well the fact is as Martina Navratilova said some of these so called straight guys on the ATP tour are bearding and pretending to be straight. It now makes sense what she's saying. Because in a population a certain number of these guys have to be gay or bisexual in the top 100. The question is who are they are why are they so afraid? Amelie Mauresmo is loved by everyone. She has tremendous fan support.

Sjengster
11-20-2006, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the article.
Imagine Kolya coming out, now he would get a clothing deal !

Doing it at this moment in time would be inconsiderate to say the least, considering the upcoming events in his life.

Good to see you expanding your stellar posting repertoire, TennisAgenda. What was it Safin said once a few years back? "I'm not gay! Find me one ordinary man who doesn't enjoy women's company. It's normal, right?" Ah, classic Marat (insert appropriate smiley here)!

R.Federer
11-20-2006, 03:39 PM
Is Nadal gay ~ or is he just metro?
Is Federer gay ~ or is he just Mirko?
Is Hewitt gay ~ or is he just macho?
Is Safin gay ~ or is he just a cult leader?


#BTW, Ian Thorpe is gay~> that`s why he`s calling a press conference tomorrow><.

Mirko!!!! :lol:
Roge is definitely Mirko

And yes the Thorpedo is said to be out amongst his friends, but tomorrow's conference will be about calling it curtains in swimming.

atheneglaukopis
11-20-2006, 03:59 PM
Doing it at this moment in time would be inconsiderate to say the least, considering the upcoming events in his life.

Good to see you expanding your stellar posting repertoire, TennisAgenda. What was it Safin said once a few years back? "I'm not gay! Find me one ordinary man who doesn't enjoy women's company. It's normal, right?" Ah, classic Marat (insert appropriate smiley here)!They also asked him once if he was only signing autographs for beautiful girls, and he answered, "No, I am signing pretty boys also."

And :haha: to the Davydenko observation.

lunahielo
11-20-2006, 04:18 PM
It sure would be nice to have a world where people weren't *judged* or talked about because of their sexual orientation. IMO it's stupid and childish.

I have found over the years that it someone is secure in their own sexuality, they don't care what others think~~~and they don't care what others are doing.

Just my 3¢ :)

Thanks for the article.
luna

Joyce_23
11-20-2006, 04:28 PM
I think it's a pity that it's still a taboo. Gay people should be able to come out and be comfortable with coming out but tennis is not the only sport where this is a problem. Do you know any gay soccer players? Sportsmen are mostly macho guys, even if they say they're not and to tell people that you are gay in that envirement is just not done.
Speculating who could be gay is kinda fun though..:lol: I was once told that on average one of fourty people is gay, that makes for 2,5 gaymen in the top 100... And no, Nalby is not the 1,5...Just thought I'd cover that before you guys do...:)

Action Jackson
11-20-2006, 04:32 PM
Why would they bother when everyone on the tour is gay.

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:32 PM
If I was a proffesional tennis player I would ocme out gay because all the gays would buy my suspicially good timed merchandise and all the girls would atuomatically like me because that made them not homophobes.

I would take the tennis market by storm by cashing in on other peoples scaredness :woohoo:

Just me $3 :rolleyes:

*Ljubica*
11-20-2006, 04:39 PM
OK - maybe this is just a straight female perspective, and gay males may disagree with me - but why do some people make such a big deal about this subect every now and again? People are people - doesn't matter to me whether they're gay, straght, bisexual or whatever - their sexual orientation is their own private business and should remain so, and isn't anyone else's concern. OK - if they want to "come out" then fine, respect to them - that's their choice and I won't think any less of them for it - but if they choose to live their lives privately and want to keep quiet about what happens in their bedrooms, then that's fine by me too :shrug: Why try and push people into doing or saying something they obviously don't want to say for whatever reason?

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:43 PM
OK - maybe this is just a straight female perspective, and gay males may disagree with me - but why do some people make such a big deal about this subect every now and again? People are people - doesn't matter to me whether they're gay, straght, bisexual or whatever - their sexual orientation is their own private business and should remain so, and isn't anyone else's concern. OK - if they want to "come out" then fine, respect to them - that's their choice and I won't think any less of them for it - but if they choose to live their lives privately and want to keep quiet about what happens in their bedrooms, then that's fine by me too :shrug: Why try and push people into doing or saying something they obviously don't want to say for whatever reason?

Because humans need scandal and people that dont live up to the 'norm'! :secret:

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:43 PM
Also, wouldnt you just love to know who gives and who receives :rolleyes:

Breakdown
11-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Well the fact is as Martina Navratilova said some of these so called straight guys on the ATP tour are bearding and pretending to be straight. It now makes sense what she's saying. Because in a population a certain number of these guys have to be gay or bisexual in the top 100. The question is who are they are why are they so afraid? Amelie Mauresmo is loved by everyone. She has tremendous fan support.

Everyone loves Momo?:confused:
No - I don't love her! :wavey: What a choker!

Naranoc
11-20-2006, 04:46 PM
Why try and push people into doing or saying something they obviously don't want to say for whatever reason?

I agree with this. It seems a bit shallow and selfish to say that 'Gay pro's should come out to be a role model to/ encourage gay guys who want to play tennis, but have no one to look out', when in fact people just want something interesting to gossip and speculate about. If they feel comfortable coming out, then no problem, but people find it difficult enough to tell their parents/family, never mind the rest of the world and the media who will probably exaggerate it beyond all proportion.

And yes, this has been discussed to death before!

Denaon
11-20-2006, 04:48 PM
OK - maybe this is just a straight female perspective, and gay males may disagree with me - but why do some people make such a big deal about this subect every now and again? People are people - doesn't matter to me whether they're gay, straght, bisexual or whatever - their sexual orientation is their own private business and should remain so, and isn't anyone else's concern. OK - if they want to "come out" then fine, respect to them - that's their choice and I won't think any less of them for it - but if they choose to live their lives privately and want to keep quiet about what happens in their bedrooms, then that's fine by me too :shrug: Why try and push people into doing or saying something they obviously don't want to say for whatever reason?
Rosie...I believe there's a fact here, women have come out more than men (in tennis)...then there's gotta be something there that make gay men decide not to come out....
I don't think they're trying to push anyone to do it, however I think they're making a right assumption, not telling the world who you are (I think other gay people will agree that being homosexual turns into a very important part of who we are, maybe in the future won't happen) must really hurt anyone that's hidding his "real" self.

Breakdown
11-20-2006, 04:50 PM
Also, wouldnt you just love to know who gives and who receives

Gives and receives what???????

Denaon
11-20-2006, 04:51 PM
I agree with this. It seems a bit shallow and selfish to say that 'Gay pro's should come out to be a role model to/ encourage gay guys who want to play tennis, but have no one to look out', when in fact people just want something interesting to gossip and speculate about. If they feel comfortable coming out, then no problem, but people find it difficult enough to tell their parents/family, never mind the rest of the world and the media who will probably exaggerate it beyond all proportion.

And yes, this has been discussed to death before!

I can speak only for myself, but coming out has turned my life upside down...
http://services.windowsmedia.com/vidpic/pic200/drV000/V053/V0053665KB5.jpg

:rolls:


nah....really....I have grown as a person because coming out was a way of "respecting myself" for being who I am! ;)
And I really believe in role models...;)

Denaon
11-20-2006, 04:52 PM
Gives and receives what???????

:spit: the merchandise hunny ;)

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Gives and receives what???????

Looks like we have a dope in our flanks.

I was so obviously talking about SPERM

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:53 PM
To put it bluntly of course...

sharpeirob
11-20-2006, 04:56 PM
And by SPERM I dont mean a Croatian ball-basher...

Oh wait...

Maybe I do :cuckoo: :crazy:

Give and receive the Karolina Sperm :woohoo:

Denaon
11-20-2006, 04:57 PM
Thx to the mod that has merged these threads :D

fightingducky
11-20-2006, 05:03 PM
Mirko!!!! :lol:
Roge is definitely Mirko

And yes the Thorpedo is said to be out amongst his friends, but tomorrow's conference will be about calling it curtains in swimming.

:D on the Mirko comment...

I sincerely hope Thorpedo is not retiring...he is the only reason I watch summer Olympics...well him and tennis.

R.Federer
11-20-2006, 05:04 PM
Unfortunately, I believe that is a gross misperception.

Barring the top 50, I suspect that the tennis players who don't come out are not worried about fans, and they're not worried about Madison Avenue (mostly because outside the top 50 you don't really get the good gigs on Madison Avenue), and no clothing sponspors in their right mind will revoke their goods because you are gay.

In many cases, they are probably not even outted to their own families or friends. They may come from macho societies where gays are humiliated and ridiculed, even by their own family members and looked upon as strange beings.

We have such a large cross section of people here -- would any of you seriously dump being a fan of someone because they came out?! I think it is a gross misperception that fan base has much to do with it (certainly a little). And how many of them has Madison Avenue shown interest in?

MarieS
11-20-2006, 05:11 PM
I sincerely hope Thorpedo is not retiring...he is the only reason I watch summer Olympics...well him and tennis.

:tape: ditto.

Kip
11-20-2006, 05:15 PM
Rosie...I believe there's a fact here, women have come out more than men (in tennis)...then there's gotta be something there that make gay men decide not to come out....
I don't think they're trying to push anyone to do it, however I think they're making a right assumption, not telling the world who you are (I think other gay people will agree that being homosexual turns into a very important part of who we are, maybe in the future won't happen) must really hurt anyone that's hidding his "real" self.

And why is that?

Because he may not choose to share it with the
public at large? In no specific terms or clarifications,
their are gay atp players today that are openly gay
and out to the people in their lives yet do not feel the
need to make it a public issue when it isn't the public's business.

Also, believe me that other players know as ell
but have the respect for them to not speak on it.

I think it's for this simple fact, far too many
people want to make some huge deal out of
it as if "gay" is all of whom he is or ever will be.
Nor should anyone else, gay or straight act as if
these gays are under some obligation to put all of
their business out there.

Denaon
11-20-2006, 05:25 PM
And why is that?

Because he may not choose to share it with the
public at large? In no specific terms or clarifications,
their are gay atp players today that are openly gay
and out to the people in their lives yet do not feel the
need to make it a public issue when it isn't the public's business.

Also, believe me that other players know as ell
but have the respect for them to not speak on it.

I think it's for this simple fact, far too many
people want to make some huge deal out of
it as if "gay" is all of whom he is or ever will be.
Nor should anyone else, gay or straight act as if
these gays are under some obligation to put all of
their business out there.
Because the truth is people do not think being gay as a real second choice, what would happen if any player would like to have a family with his partner? Must he continue the lie? Players are public people...I'm not saying you gotta tell every detail of your life, but I truly believe you gotta be real...that's it.

What do you think about Martina Navratilova coming out? If you read the article, she talks of her experience...I'm not a tennis player nor a famous person, but I can tell from experience too.
It's not what they'll ever be....that's where you're getting the wrong picture.

Breakdown
11-20-2006, 05:41 PM
[QUOTE][To put it bluntly of course.../QUOTE]

Toooooooooooooooooo bluntly though...

deliveryman
11-20-2006, 05:48 PM
I stopped reading at "Why must the ATP through hetereosexuality in our faces"

:rolleyes:

TennisAgenda
11-20-2006, 07:00 PM
Some people obviously didn't read the Afterelton article. The article is just asking questions. Why is it in the year 2006 gay male tennis players are in the closet? I thought it was amazing that Martina Navratilova she doesn't even know who those guys are. Yet on the WTA numerous stars are lesbians.
No one is questioning why the gay men on the ATP tour are afraid? The ATP I believe is very homophobic even though its an individual sport.


WTA STARS OPEN ABOUT THEIR LESBIANISM
Tennis legend Billie Jean King openly lebian

Conchita Martinez former world no.2 Wimbledon champion openly lesbian

Amelie Mauresmo reigning Australian Open and Wimbledon Champion former world no.1 openly lesbian

Renee Stubbs, Lisa Raymond formers double partners and lesbian lovers are out of the closet.

Gigi Fernandez former lover of Conchita Martinez and Olympic gold medalist and former Wimbledon semifinalist openly lesbian

Svetlana Kuznetsova 2004 US OPEN champion world no.4 openly lesbian

Arantxa Sanchez Vicaro, Gabriela Sabatini bisexual and former champions

Monica Seles former champion rumoured to be bisexual and used to date fellow pro Bree Rippner.

TennisAgenda
11-20-2006, 07:01 PM
Other WTA lesbians

Inze Gorrachategui former French Open quaterfinalist openly lesbian

Hana Mandlikova and Jana Novotna former champions and former lesbian lovers.

Mobes
11-20-2006, 07:07 PM
It makes no difference if they're in or out and it's no-one elses buisness UNLESS they are being two-faced and hypocritical...at that point it does become "my buisness"....if an ATP or WTA player says anything anti-gay and are gay or bi or whatever themselves...then it becomes an issue...but apart from that, meh!

Frooty_Bazooty
11-20-2006, 07:30 PM
Svetlana Kuznetsova 2004 US OPEN champion world no.4 openly lesbian


not that im surprised cos it is painfully obvious but when was this made official.

I've noticed that Navratilova seems to play with very butch doubles partners all the time. My money is on Groenefeld being lesbian too.

as for the men, I seem to remember hearing some comments about Thomas Muster that seemed pretty reliable....

Allez
11-20-2006, 07:44 PM
:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

Now that there's no more tennis to talk about, this thread makes it's annual comeback. JordanJames is nothing if not persistant in his crusade against closet cases. :rolleyes:

Bremen
11-20-2006, 07:48 PM
not that im surprised cos it is painfully obvious but when was this made official.

I've noticed that Navratilova seems to play with very butch doubles partners all the time. My money is on Groenefeld being lesbian too.

as for the men, I seem to remember hearing some comments about Thomas Muster that seemed pretty reliable....

Muster is married with a child so.....:rolleyes:

Frooty_Bazooty
11-20-2006, 07:55 PM
Muster is married with a child so.....:rolleyes:

ok i didnt know that. but still, ive had sex with married men with kids before and my friend used to work as a rent boy and ALL his clients were married with kids

The Pro
11-20-2006, 10:48 PM
I've noticed that Navratilova seems to play with very butch doubles partners all the time. My money is on Groenefeld being lesbian too.


Yeah, they don't get much more butch than Mariaan de Swart:eek:

I'm sure Svetlana Kuznetsova isn't an openly gay woman........is she?

Bremen
11-20-2006, 10:51 PM
ok i didnt know that. but still, ive had sex with married men with kids before and my friend used to work as a rent boy and ALL his clients were married with kids

Ok, point taken.

Saumon
11-20-2006, 10:59 PM
as for the men, I seem to remember hearing some comments about Thomas Muster that seemed pretty reliable....

are you sure it was not Courier?

RickDaStick
11-20-2006, 11:00 PM
Im still waiting for Nadal to come out of the closet.

Voo de Mar
11-20-2006, 11:13 PM
Once upon a time I thought that Vincent Spadea is a gay but I don't know why I thought this way :shrug:
Roger & Rafael are gays? I don't think so... They are rather androgynous athletes.

Bremen
11-20-2006, 11:52 PM
Well, now we know why he's the Thorpedo. :angel:



:haha: Marat is just a lover of booty beauty. "There are too few beauties on the WTA tour. In contrast, there are a whole bunch on the men’s tour, including Haas, Hewitt, Roddick and Philippoussis." :angel:

Never heard those two quotes before...anymore safin homoerotic quotes out there??

atheneglaukopis
11-21-2006, 12:32 AM
Why would they bother when everyone on the tour is gay.That's what I was thinking--MTF has already outed everyone!

r2473
11-21-2006, 02:38 AM
Ok, I'm gay (I feel so much better now).

Fee
11-21-2006, 03:46 AM
Well the fact is as Martina Navratilova said some of these so called straight guys on the ATP tour are bearding and pretending to be straight. It now makes sense what she's saying. Because in a population a certain number of these guys have to be gay or bisexual in the top 100. The question is who are they are why are they so afraid? Amelie Mauresmo is loved by everyone. She has tremendous fan support.

Oh look, GayAgenda/jordanjames is back again. This is a 32 page thread now, and there have been many, many, many comments about why a male athlete would be afraid to come out at this time. The article you posted includes a male athlete explaining it in plain English. Why do you keep asking this question? Here's one more answer for you: BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO CONCENTRATE ON TENNIS WHEN YOU GET 10 - 50 DEATH THREATS A DAY.

Why would they bother when everyone on the tour is gay.

We all know that, they all know that, every male figure skater on the planet agrees tennis is the gayest thing around, but the people at the Tennis-X and Tennis Week forums still haven't figured it out, so we have to keep rehashing it here. ;)

OK - maybe this is just a straight female perspective, and gay males may disagree with me - but why do some people make such a big deal about this subect every now and again? People are people - doesn't matter to me whether they're gay, straght, bisexual or whatever - their sexual orientation is their own private business and should remain so, and isn't anyone else's concern. OK - if they want to "come out" then fine, respect to them - that's their choice and I won't think any less of them for it - but if they choose to live their lives privately and want to keep quiet about what happens in their bedrooms, then that's fine by me too :shrug: Why try and push people into doing or saying something they obviously don't want to say for whatever reason?

Oh how I wish more people thought like you on this issue (jordanjames in particular). By the way, your post makes perfect sense and you will be banned from MTF for that. ;) :hug:

I agree with this. It seems a bit shallow and selfish to say that 'Gay pro's should come out to be a role model to/ encourage gay guys who want to play tennis, but have no one to look out', when in fact people just want something interesting to gossip and speculate about. If they feel comfortable coming out, then no problem, but people find it difficult enough to tell their parents/family, never mind the rest of the world and the media who will probably exaggerate it beyond all proportion.

And yes, this has been discussed to death before!

To death, resurrected on the third day, and killed all over again...


I think it's for this simple fact, far too many
people want to make some huge deal out of
it as if "gay" is all of whom he is or ever will be.
Nor should anyone else, gay or straight act as if
these gays are under some obligation to put all of
their business out there.

Word.

buddyholly
11-21-2006, 04:06 AM
This is a 32 page thread now, and there have been many, many, many comments about why a male athlete would be afraid to come out at this time.

Oh how I wish more people thought like you on this issue (jordanjames in particular). By the way, your post makes perfect sense and you will be banned from MTF for that. ;) :hug:





This is a 32 page thread now because of the people who can't resist making repetitive page-long posts about why people can't leave the subject alone.
Irony of ironies.

Saumon
11-21-2006, 05:38 AM
Soon tennis will be like figure skating, where it's the straight men that have to do the coming out. :banana: (That's right, Alexei Yagudin (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/yagudinmug1.html), you can tell me you're straight and I won't love you any less. :drool: )

Yagudin :drool: (he was driving under the influence of alcohol? :eek: i'm so shocked! :p )

doublebackhand
11-22-2006, 05:50 AM
Because I'm tired of reiterating the same exact thing to the same exact questions of: "Who cares if guys come out? Why is it such a big deal if guys are gay?" I will instead direct you all to the post I made on the subject after one of the many other times this thread was bumped up:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=4027413&postcount=378 :)

Ah, that's so much easier! :angel:

j'torian, i hear ya! and much of jordanjames said. :worship:

i feel disappointed to say the least by some of the posters here about what they said. i feel ashamed if they are gay themselves and dont care if gay people come out or not. probably becoz they have been living in the closet so far. as for the straight ones, i just have to say they have no idea what gay people go thru, especially growing up, having to deal with one's own sexuality and the general despite. they are just so ready to trivialize it as our wet dream or gossipy desire.

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 04:26 PM
Never heard those two quotes before...anymore safin homoerotic quotes out there??Just to keep you up to date :), although I'm not sure this belongs in the "gay coming-out" thread--maybe we need a "bisexual coming-out" thread.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/tennis/yoyo-from-moscow/2007/01/12/1168105178854.html?page=3
"But I have no family with me, I have no girlfriends, I have no boyfriends and I have no kids, so I never have dinner at home,"

Metis
01-14-2007, 04:41 PM
:haha:

Poor Marat! He is so desperate to find The One that he doesn't care about the gender any more. And all that stuff about "I can cook if needed" sounds like he is trying to attract potential mates by assuring them he is not high maintenance and can contribute to the housework.

Difficult times even for the super sexy ones...

Ernham
01-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Well, generally speaking, a significant portion of gay women are "butches" that probably couldn't get a man unless they beat them unconcious first. Such person would not mind to play sports for a living, as opposed to more "normal" things. (Mo-lesmo and Navratilova for instance, both look like man-beasts. So does Serena, but let's not go there). So, in a way, they have an advantage over hetero women.

The "feminine" section of gay men obviously wouldn't do well or want to play a phycial sport such as tennis at a pro level, and the more average/macho gay men have no advantage over the males they play agains; as a matter of fact, they have a disadvantage in that they are staring at attractive, successful, athletic, young men wacking balls all day.

mer
01-14-2007, 04:54 PM
:haha:

Poor Marat! He is so desperate to find The One that he doesn't care about the gender any more. And all that stuff about "I can cook if needed" sounds like he is trying to attract potential mates by assuring them he is not high maintenance and can contribute to the housework.

Difficult times even for the super sexy ones...
:awww:

Gasquet&Feli_Fan
01-14-2007, 04:55 PM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/pacomexican/pic055-221-00032.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/pacomexican/pic055-221-00031.jpg

Hugh Jaas
01-14-2007, 05:00 PM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/pacomexican/pic055-221-00032.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/pacomexican/pic055-221-00031.jpg
rogi?
marat?


WTF


http://i16.tinypic.com/4gq81f6.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7088/u1535p6t12d2682275f44dtls0.jpg

Ernham
01-14-2007, 05:03 PM
Well, Safin did show up dateless to Davy's wedding. Hmmmm.

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 05:06 PM
Well, Safin did show up dateless to Davy's wedding. Hmmmm.Actually, if boyfriends are now options, he showed up with Volkov of the towel-smoochy pics above. :aplot:

From all appearances--Kooyong pics especially--he doesn't have a boyfriend in the sense of a steady boyfriend...more like he's enjoying playing the field. Difficult times indeed. :lol:

Ernham
01-14-2007, 05:10 PM
Nah. He can't be gay. He's a Don Cossak, isn't he? That's like a gay redneck.

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 05:12 PM
Nah. He can't be gay. He's a Don Cossak, isn't he? That's like a gay redneck.He's not gay. He's a bisexual bad boy.

Ursy
01-14-2007, 05:13 PM
more like he's enjoying playing the field. Difficult times indeed. :lol:

Here here!!! :devil:

By the way, you guys forgot the pink antenna he wore... :p

mer
01-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Nah. He can't be gay. He's a Don Cossak, isn't he? That's like a gay redneck.
wtf? :spit:

no, he's not

Hugh Jaas
01-14-2007, 05:15 PM
Actually, if boyfriends are now options, he showed up with Volkov of the towel-smoochy pics above. :aplot:

From all appearances--Kooyong pics especially--he doesn't have a boyfriend in the sense of a steady boyfriend...more like he's enjoying playing the field. Difficult times indeed. :lol:

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/7685/u1426p6t12d2006967f44dtsg3.jpg

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 05:16 PM
wtf? :lol:The Russian Don Juan/Casanova, very clever. :lol:

Ursy
01-14-2007, 05:19 PM
oh and he also stated at the Kooyong press conference that he offered volkov some cash... According to the above theory, sasha is now officially a whore... :angel:

scoobs
01-14-2007, 05:20 PM
He's not gay. He's a bisexual bad boy.

I can see Marat as the bi badboy - any hole's a goal but really, he just wants to be loved...

:hug: :hearts:

Ernham
01-14-2007, 05:24 PM
wtf? :spit:

no, he's not

Ya, I just checked. It appears he's actually a Tatar, excuse me, a Tatar.

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 05:36 PM
oh and he also stated at the Kooyong press conference that he offered volkov some cash... According to the above theory, sasha is now officially a whore... :angel::spit: It's open to other interpretations, though.

"I offered him a few trips,"...when that didn't work..."a little cash,"...when that didn't work..."full hospitality." BINGO!

So maybe it's Marat who's whoring himself out to get a coach. :lol: Who knows? They all speak in code.

atheneglaukopis
01-14-2007, 05:36 PM
I can see Marat as the bi badboy - any hole's a goal but really, he just wants to be loved...

:hug: :hearts:He just wants someone to love him...:awww:...enough to do the dishes. :angel:

Metis
01-15-2007, 02:11 AM
Hewitt should take notes! :angel:

Nah, he's a father now. He needs to give a good example...

By the way, this is by far the sexiest of your avatars! :lol:

MariaV
01-15-2007, 02:21 AM
:spit: I was so tempted to write "... That's hot." on the avatar, but I decided that was gilding the lily! :devil:

J'torian PLEEEEEEEEASE bring back that Tommy R avatar you had so briefly! :angel: :angel:
Do I have to beg you like Marat does with his boyfriends?

MariaV
01-15-2007, 02:37 AM
Yes this one, yes this one, pleeeeeeeeease! :angel:

alfonsojose
01-15-2007, 04:44 AM
Marat eating a hairy male ass once in a while wouldn't be a surprise

Sinnet
01-15-2007, 05:22 AM
Roddick and I had sex at his apartment once, so he's officially out of the closet in my book. Happy now? And yea, he enjoyed it. He said that it would have taken Maria a few more years to be manly enough for him. ;) :devil:

alfonsojose
01-15-2007, 11:08 AM
Roddick and I had sex at his apartment once, so he's officially out of the closet in my book. Happy now? And yea, he enjoyed it. He said that it would have taken Maria a few more years to be manly enough for him. ;) :devil:

Hi, Momo :wavey: