Dubai events are rich in prize money, richer in politics [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Dubai events are rich in prize money, richer in politics

nobama
03-02-2006, 11:10 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_wertheim/03/01/mailbag/
Anyone else find it strange that Agassi is in Dubai this week? When he's always been "Mr. Vegas," loves his hometown, has all his charitable works there and his home, and now there is finally an ATP tournament there where he would be King Supreme of Las Vegas, he opts to play halfway around the world. Was it simply money talking?
-- Diane, N.Y.

Dubai has emerged as a real player on the tennis-scape chiefly for one reason: money. The amount of cha-ching being lavished on players is stunning. The appearance fees are off the charts, rumored to be in the $1 million range for the top names. Prize money is tremendous. Players leave the event with jewelry, watches and, at least in one case, a horse.

What's more, there's a seven-star (yes, seven) hotel not far from the tennis center. If you were a WTA player, would you have been in Memphis last week?

In the case of Agassi, we hear that he committed to Dubai long in advance (he was eliminated by Bjorn Phau on Wednesday). But yes, especially, in a culture in which changes in scheduling and last-minute pull-outs are commonplace, it's more than a little disappointing that he is missing the ATP's inaugural event in his hometown to make a mint half a world away.

The big money makes it all the easier for both tours to overlook some weighty -- and uncomfortable -- sociopolitical issues. The current "ports controversy" has laid bare the United Arab Emirate's role as a financial and logistical hub in the planning of the 9-11 attacks. As for the tennis, as I wrote a few years ago, the U.A.E. does not exactly have a sterling record on women's rights. Further, like other Arab nations, the U.A.E. doesn't have diplomatic relations with Israel.

Reader Lance Harke called this (http://dubaitourism.co.ae/Travel/default.asp?SubCatID=43) link to our attention. Note this prominent line: "Nationals of 'Israel' may not enter the U.A.E." If I'm, say, Shahar Peer, the top-40 Israeli player, I'm sure not happy that my tour is sanctioning events in countries in which I am not welcome. It's not a perfect analogy but we'll make this one anyway: Would the WTA or ATP ever even think about sanctioning an event in a country or club that excluded African-Americans? (Then again, if the country in question were offering $1.5 million in prize money, high six-figure guarantees and had a duty free shop that was a chief sponsor of the tour. Well, maybe. )

We asked the ATP and WTA about this issue and both tours reported that before giving their sanction, they had assurances that no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event. I was struck by how closely the logic parallels President Bush's position on the ports. While this country isn't perfect, let's use this as an opportunity to bridge gaps and establish trust.

Here's WTA CEO Larry Scott: "The Sony Ericsson WTA Tour and our player and tournament members believe that through sport we can act as a positive influence for social change and equality, particularly in the area of women's rights. We are one of many sporting organizations that has reached this conclusion on the role that sport can play in diverse countries throughout the world."

Like many of you, I have a hard time with Scott's situational ethics. And I also recognize that the U.A.E.'s monopoly money is playing a huge role in the equation. But another part of me is inclined to give him (and the ATP) the benefit of the doubt. Bringing women's tennis to a moderate Arab country may ultimately lead to improving women's rights as well as a better understanding of the West. Who knows? It might even lead to a day when Peer and the 10 other Israeli players ranked by the WTA don't need special permission to enter the country.

Peoples
03-02-2006, 11:55 AM
It's a good event. There should be more of these. Rotterdam and others should compete if they want and not whine about players pulling out.

Action Jackson
03-02-2006, 11:58 AM
No, the dream has been shattered, so it's money that makes the world go round.

Whistleway
03-02-2006, 12:36 PM
The author is very naive.

Jordanjames
03-02-2006, 12:45 PM
I had wondered to myself with the WTA players would be safe in the UAE...some of these Middle East countries aren't just sexist they are misogynst to the core. I suggest people read Irshad Manji's "The Trouble With Islam" she really breaks down how some of these Middle East Countries basically treat women like slaves......

Vass
03-02-2006, 01:22 PM
"The Trouble With Islam" she really breaks down how some of these Middle East Countries basically treat women like slaves......
UAE is not one of those countries. Not that it has ANYTHINg to do with the tournament.
I think the author brought out way too many relevant and grossly irrelevant points in this article.
Even managed to bring the Dubai Ports World in to this. :rolleyes: Blah blah blah. And :eek: 9-11???? Bush??? WTF?!

mangoes
03-02-2006, 01:40 PM
UAE is not on of those countries.


It isn't? Why do you say so?



I agree that it all comes down to money, but, such is life........

tangerine_dream
03-02-2006, 04:49 PM
I love that Roger Federer is getting paid a shit load of money to play Dubai (while skipping Rotterdam), which he's been playing for years. For once, it's not just a top player like Andre Agassi who can be accused of following the green trail. And Safin doesn't mind the color of money, either. Also interesting is that Roddick doesn't play Dubai even though he would be guaranteed a huge payday, all of which flies in the face of his detractors' strange belief that Roddick is just another green-eyed American monster. :p

Of course, getting paid well doesn't make anybody a bad guy.

Federer Pockets Half Mil, Headlines at ATP Dubai

By Richard Vach, Tennis-X.com Senior Writer

No. 1 seed Roger Federer received more than an estimated half a million dollars just to show up for The Dubai Tennis Championships this coming week, approximately three times what he would earn for winning the event, and Dubai organizers see the Swiss as worth every penny of the appearance guarantee.

Organizers of Middle East events can afford to buy the best in professional tennis, as they're showing with their current effort to move the men's and women's Indian Wells event from the U.S. to the desert. Landing the Swiss this week, who is on the fast track to becoming the greatest player ever with what is seemingly a large guarantee sum, is nary a drop in the bucket for the oil-rich organizers.

Last week Dubai hosted a WTA event that, though not even a lauded "Tier I" stop, nevertheless offered $1 million in prize money. This paled in comparison to the under-the-table guarantees to attract five former No. 1s among the star-studded field in winner Justine Henin-Hardenne, runner-up Maria Sharapova, semifinalist Lindsay Davenport, and quarterfinalists Amelie Mauresmo and Martina Hingis.

Both Dubai and Doha businessmen aren't shy about -- when they're not busy building ski resorts inside malls or carting in sand to build giant man-made resort islands in the shape of palm trees, or even setting up ultra-modern sea-side hotels with makeshift tennis courts high above the city on helipads -- throwing wads of cash at players without hesitation.

"It is money well spent and a perfect return on investment for Dubai," Dubai Tournament Director Salah Tahlak told Gulf News last week. "Players like Agassi, Navratilova and Sharapova have this appeal. Therefore, we don't have problems paying them appearance money. The Top 10 players normally do (receive money). The payment is more like a Persian carpet, each one has a different pricing."

Setting up the helipad appearance with Federer and Agassi with the ATP's help last year set them back a measly $10 million, but as an investment in public relations turned out to be a shrewd investment.

"That stunt was valued at $9.5 million, while the marketing and public relations returns for the entire event was pinned at $24.5 million," Tahlak said. "This is sound return on the investments."

Federer will likely be another sound return for Dubai this week, with the Swiss at the top of his game seeking a fourth consecutive Dubai title, and looking to extend his Open Era-record 52-match winning streak on hardcourts.

Federer has made two appearances thus far in 2006, winning at Doha and then the Australian Open, then pulling out of a pair of events and the first round of the Davis Cup to rest, he said, for the back-to-back Masters Series events in Indian Wells and Miami.

Agassi is also also eager to tap the Dubai guarantee flow, and speak of his past experiences in the playland for the super-wealthy.

"Dubai is something I would look forward to sharing with my wife and family," Agassi said. "It's an incredible place to see and to visit for so many reasons. To see what they've built here is really a reflection of a lot of vision, a lot of passion, not to mention the cultures that live peacefully together. It's the way the world is meant to be."

Federer and Agassi's weren't the only bank accounts receiving oil injections this week as the Dubai field also contains world No. 2 Rafal Nadal, Top 10 lesser personalities Nikolay Davydenko and David Ferrer, and features the 2006 debut of Marat Safin who returns from a knee injury.

bokehlicious
03-02-2006, 04:53 PM
"Federer has made two appearances thus far in 2006, winning at Doha and then the Australian Open, then pulling out of a pair of events and the first round of the Davis Cup to rest, he said, for the back-to-back Masters Series events in Indian Wells and Miami."

:confused: He only pulled out of Rotterdam :o

Merton
03-02-2006, 04:55 PM
I love that Roger Federer is getting paid a shit load of money to play Dubai (while skipping Rotterdam), which he's been playing for years. For once, it's not just a top player like Andre Agassi who can be accused of following the green trail. And Safin doesn't mind the color of money, either. Also interesting is that Roddick doesn't play Dubai even though he would be guaranteed a huge payday, all of which flies in the face of his detractors' strange belief that Roddick is just another green-eyed American monster. :p

Of course, getting paid well doesn't make anybody a bad guy.

It is a matter of time before Andy plays Dubai. One day he will get an offer he cannot refuse :D

Rogiman
03-02-2006, 05:07 PM
It is a matter of time before Andy plays Dubai. One day he will get an offer he cannot refuse :D
At this ratio they won't be too desperate to get him.

Merton
03-02-2006, 05:13 PM
At this ratio they won't be too desperate to get him.

That is true, but i believe in mean-revertion. Andy will eventually recover his form and his confidence.

kapranos
03-02-2006, 05:16 PM
Maybe I remind people that players such as Anna Smashnova can't play Dubai? I think it's appaling that the WTA and ATP hold an event that aren't open to all players. It should be cancelled.

mangoes
03-02-2006, 05:18 PM
Can someone please clarify the article posted above:

Were the officials from Dubai trying to purchase Indian Wells?

Fee
03-02-2006, 05:24 PM
Yes Mangoes, there was apparently an offer made for Indian Wells. Two articles were posted here yesterday that Sampras and others have invested in IW in order to buy out IMG's share of the tournament and guarantee that it stays put for the next few years.

mangoes
03-02-2006, 05:28 PM
Yes Mangoes, there was apparently an offer made for Indian Wells. Two articles were posted here yesterday that Sampras and others have invested in IW in order to buy out IMG's share of the tournament and guarantee that it stays put for the next few years.

Wow.........thanks for answering.

nobama
03-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Maybe I remind people that players such as Anna Smashnova can't play Dubai? I think it's appaling that the WTA and ATP hold an event that aren't open to all players. It should be cancelled.Well according to the article above, the WTA says they were assured anyone who enters would be allowed to play. But I have a hunch no Israeli players were on either tours entry list. I agree the tours should come together and take a stand. I'd love to see Roger tell them to stuff it, but he's certainly not one for making waves and aside from the appearance fees, he vacations there in his time off so he obviously loves the place. It sucks, but as long as they keep throwing money and lavish gifts at the players the players will keep showing up. :sad:

mangoes
03-02-2006, 05:37 PM
I wonder if there are a lot of tennis fans in Dubai.......... Does anyone know?

Peoples
03-02-2006, 05:40 PM
Well according to the article above, the WTA says they were assured anyone who enters would be allowed to play. But I have a hunch no Israeli players were on either tours entry list. I agree the tours should come together and take a stand. I'd love to see Roger tell them to stuff it, but he's certainly not one for making waves and aside from the appearance fees, he vacations there in his time off so he obviously loves the place. It sucks, but as long as they keep throwing money and lavish gifts at the players the players will keep showing up. :sad:
Of course they are allowed to play... if they manage to cross the border and get into the country that is! :haha:

kapranos
03-02-2006, 05:41 PM
Well according to the article above, the WTA says they were assured anyone who enters would be allowed to play.

How would they do that, that's what I wonder... :scratch:

And about Agassi, with all the money he has, I think it's pathetic he doesn't support Las Vegas. :rolleyes:

kapranos
03-02-2006, 05:41 PM
Of course they are allowed to play... if they manage to cross the border and get into the country that is! :haha:

Exactly lol...

mangoes
03-02-2006, 05:42 PM
How would they do that, that's what I wonder... :scratch:

And about Agassi, with all the money he has, I think it's pathetic he doesn't support Las Vegas. :rolleyes:

I think he is doing it because of his school. It's about raising funds for the school.

Rogiman
03-02-2006, 05:44 PM
How would they do that, that's what I wonder... :scratch:

I think if they insisted on playing the event they would get special visas, it would just probably feel pretty hostile and insecure so they give up.

nobama
03-02-2006, 05:47 PM
I think if they insisted on playing the event they would get special visas, it would just probably feel pretty hostile and insecure so they give up.I heard on CNN that Dubai's policy regarding "Israeli Nationals" is quite liberal (not sure about the rest of UAE though).

oneandonlyhsn
03-02-2006, 05:48 PM
Supposedly the WTA players love playing there and so do most of the ATP players (money obviously also being a factor) so I'm sure if the women felt in any way threatened they wouldnt love it so much. I wish most of the posters would have a chance to actually visit Dubai and see what it really is like for women out there before they comment.

kapranos
03-02-2006, 05:49 PM
So Peer CAN play if she wants to, all she has to do is to ask for a special visa and she gets it?

oneandonlyhsn
03-02-2006, 05:53 PM
I heard on CNN that Dubai's policy regarding "Israeli Nationals" is quite liberal (not sure about the rest of UAE though).

Yes when I was in Dubai I met a few Israelis vacationing down there

TheMightyFed
03-02-2006, 05:53 PM
I wonder if there are a lot of tennis fans in Dubai.......... Does anyone know?
Yes there are some. I was at a match the other day there and mainly expats are attending the tournament. In a way, for Dubai this is a PR event that helps them to promote tourism, before oil is done. It's smart, they invest in their future, and they have the right to do so. People are quite free in this country, OK it's not a democracy but it's not evil as some American commentators insinuate. Why Jewish players should play there ? Are there top or bankable Israeli players ? No, so please spare us this kind of comments. Tennis is losing it in the States coz' Roddick and company suck and Americans are mostly interested by their native players. Is it better than Dubai PR approach of tennis ? I don't think so. I'm not from Dubai shall I precise...

Rogiman
03-02-2006, 05:54 PM
So Peer CAN play if she wants to, all she has to do is to ask for a special visa and she gets it?
I guess so.

And she could actually be a profitable investment for the organizers:
Think not only about the amount of exposure they would get in the media, but also about all the people that would purchase tickets for the event, just to hold up Palestine's flag in the stands and whistle every time she's about to serve... :tape:

Fee
03-02-2006, 06:22 PM
....Why Jewish players should play there ? Are there top or bankable Israeli players ? No, so please spare us this kind of comments...

It's not about whether the Israeli players are 'bankable', its about whether they are allowed to show up for qualies to take their chance at getting in, or even to enter the main draw, so that they too can get the expensive gift bags offered to the players, the rankings points, and the prize money. The ATP should make sure that their tournaments are open to all of their dues paying members, and it would appear that Dubai is not.

Jordanjames
03-02-2006, 06:48 PM
Well lesbian feminist Irshad Manji's book "The Trouble With Islam" talks about the hypocrisy of the middle eastern and Arab nations in how they deal with Jewish people but also how they treat their own people. Accoding to Manji a lot of these countries in the middle east have a horrible record in how they treat their own people...especially in how they treat women. I'm surprised that the WTA tour would allow events in this region in the world given the fact Anna Smashnova and Shahar Peer would not be allowed to play. Can you imagine if an event said no Asian or black players would not be allowed to play in an event their would be a public outcry. And yet I guess discriminatiing against Jewish people is okay in the Middle East. Irshad Manji's book "The Trouble With Islam" is on point about this region of the world....

Veronique
02-21-2007, 01:59 AM
If it's true that the tournament bans Israeli citizens from taking part, why in the world do the ATP and WTA hold events there? Why haven't players been vocal about it?

alsace
02-21-2007, 02:12 AM
If it's true that the tournament bans Israeli citizens from taking part, why in the world do the ATP and WTA hold events there? Why haven't players been vocal about it?

Because money rules. And because Arthur Ashe is no longer on the scene. :sad:

zicofirol
02-21-2007, 02:18 AM
If it's true that the tournament bans Israeli citizens from taking part, why in the world do the ATP and WTA hold events there? Why haven't players been vocal about it?

because the rest of the world also does not like Israel, now if Isarel had an atp event and they banned saudi's, syrians, iranians from participating, you would of heard about it by now, and you would have 20 of those messages on mtf...

do they ban jews from participating?

like I said before, boycott dubai just over how they treat women...

ps. no Israeli would dare go there anyway, the threat of something happening would be to great to risk...

Merton
02-21-2007, 02:31 AM
I guess the ATP and WTA receive some type of guarantee that the Dubai events are open to Israelis who wish to apply for visa. Given the high entry ranking required to enter, this is relevant only for Sahar.

jitterbug
02-21-2007, 03:11 AM
Don't be so paranoid.

Veronique
02-21-2007, 03:22 AM
Because money rules. And because Arthur Ashe is no longer on the scene. :sad:

Sad but true!

Veronique
02-21-2007, 03:27 AM
because the rest of the world also does not like Israel, now if Isarel had an atp event and they banned saudi's, syrians, iranians from participating, you would of heard about it by now, and you would have 20 of those messages on mtf...

do they ban jews from participating?

like I said before, boycott dubai just over how they treat women...

ps. no Israeli would dare go there anyway, the threat of something happening would be to great to risk...

I don't quite agree that the rest of the world hates Israel. But we should do our part and make sure this question gets asked. I wonder if the players know the politics of this tournament. I'll be emailing TTC, Bud Collins, and Worthless.

jitterbug
02-21-2007, 03:54 AM
If it's true that the tournament bans Israeli citizens from taking part, why in the world do the ATP and WTA hold events there? Why haven't players been vocal about it?

Didn't the article in the very first post already make it clear that "no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event."

The UAE is among the most moderate of the Middle East countries and a decision to shun this event might send the signal: "We don't want you. Go back and play with your friends from the Iranian regime." If the country really is oppressive I doubt that it'd even be interested in hosting a tennis tournament in the first place, hey?

Action Jackson
02-21-2007, 04:01 AM
Didn't the article in the very first post already make it clear that "no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event."

The UAE is among the most moderate of the Middle East countries and a decision to shun this event might send the signal: "We don't want you. Go back and play with your friends from the Iranian regime." If the country really is oppressive I doubt that it'd even be interested in hosting a tennis tournament in the first place, hey?

Paranoia does things to people.

sodman12
02-21-2007, 04:03 AM
I think the people posting reply's should do some homework on dubai before you compare it to the rest of the middle east. It is two different worlds.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 04:04 AM
Yes when I was in Dubai I met a few Israelis vacationing down there

I don't know it seems a lost cause to me. I just got out of a thread where I was arguing some one ( I won't mention names) up and down about America. I've never been some one, and it doesn't really seem like it's all that big in America either to be so... I don't know opinionated about places that you've never been. I guess that's why so many people in other countries have such strong opinions about America but have never been here. It is funny to me, when i go to Dubai and see how their culture is, then I'll make my judgment, until then......

TenHound
02-21-2007, 04:52 AM
So, they'll allow Israeli players in, but Chief Piggy Roaster Ron(E) & our other Israeli friends who live just around the corner over there, couldn't stop by to enjoy the tennis.

But if it's an opportunity to publicize what a vile corrupt HellHole DoBuy is, hopefully eventually players will stop going if their reputation is smeared in shit, as it should be.

Veronique
02-21-2007, 05:07 AM
Didn't the article in the very first post already make it clear that "no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event."

The UAE is among the most moderate of the Middle East countries and a decision to shun this event might send the signal: "We don't want you. Go back and play with your friends from the Iranian regime." If the country really is oppressive I doubt that it'd even be interested in hosting a tennis tournament in the first place, hey?

My thread "Boycott Dubai?" got merged with an existing thread about the same subject. Hadn't seen nor read that article when I 1st posted.

jitterbug
02-21-2007, 05:11 AM
Didn't the article in the very first post already make it clear that "no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event."

The UAE is among the most moderate of the Middle East countries and a decision to shun this event might send the signal: "We don't want you. Go back and play with your friends from the Iranian regime." If the country really is oppressive I doubt that it'd even be interested in hosting a tennis tournament in the first place, hey?

My thread "Boycott Dubai?" got merged with an existing thread about the same subject. Hadn't seen nor read that article when I 1st posted.

Sorry about that then :) but my point stands.

zicofirol
02-21-2007, 05:21 AM
Didn't the article in the very first post already make it clear that "no player would be denied entry into the Dubai event."

The UAE is among the most moderate of the Middle East countries and a decision to shun this event might send the signal: "We don't want you. Go back and play with your friends from the Iranian regime." If the country really is oppressive I doubt that it'd even be interested in hosting a tennis tournament in the first place, hey?

saying UAE is among the most moderate Middle East countries is like saying South Africa's human rights records is exemplary when compared to uganda, congo, sierra leone etc. lol...

and like tenhound says, what if Israeli fans want to see an Israeli play in Dubai? this is really an ethical decision, if a country will not allow players or fans attend they should not have a tournament...

DrJules
02-21-2007, 05:30 AM
Is this thread in the correct place. Can it be moved as it purely seems to be aimed at insulting in Arabian nation and revels in Islamophobia rather than talking about tennis?

Peoples
02-21-2007, 05:49 AM
Moderate nation? I don't think Dubai even allows phone calls to be made to Israel.

Veronique
02-21-2007, 06:19 AM
Just emailed Wertheim and Collins. Also found out TTC has an office in my hometown, so I will be calling them tomorrow.

Bobby
02-21-2007, 06:25 AM
UAE is far from being a strict Islamic country. But yeah, there are some issues which ATP and WTA should discuss with the tournament directors.

The money is (sadly) the issue here. It's sad, that some of the big names (Federer) skip the European indoors and are willing to fly to Middle East and take the big money instead. It's a long trip and not very easy, since there are no other tournaments in the area. To fly to Dubai, play a couple of matches and take the money and fly out seems to be the plan. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like it much.

Veronique
02-21-2007, 06:25 AM
Is this thread in the correct place. Can it be moved as it purely seems to be aimed at insulting in Arabian nation and revels in Islamophobia rather than talking about tennis?

Moved where! This is General Messages. Is Islamophobia approving of President Carter's book (Palestine, Peace Not Apartheid?). That's the best book I've read in years. Again, if the official position of this tournament is that Israelis need not apply, that is very wrong. My 1st step tonight is to find out if it's true or not. Hopefully I'll hear from the powers that be.

Richard_from_Cal
02-21-2007, 06:55 AM
Moved where! This is General Messages. Is Islamophobia approving of President Carter's book (Palestine, Peace Not Apartheid?). That's the best book I've read in years. Again, if the official position of this tournament is that Israelis need not apply, that is very wrong. My 1st step tonight is to find out if it's true or not. Hopefully I'll hear from the powers that be.
From the C.I.A. World Fact Book - 2007Ethnic groups:
Emirati 19%, other Arab and Iranian 23%, South Asian 50%, other expatriates (includes Westerners and East Asians) 8% (1982)
note: less than 20% are UAE citizens (1982)
Religions:
Muslim 96% (Shi'a 16%), Christian, Hindu, and other 4%
-----

Transnational Issues United Arab Emirates

Trafficking in persons:
current situation: the United Arab Emirates is a destination country for men, women, and children trafficked from South and East Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East for involuntary servitude and for sexual exploitation; an estimated 10,000 women from sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe, South and East Asia, Iraq, Iran, and Morocco may be victims of sex trafficking in the UAE; women also migrate from Africa, and South and Southeast Asia to work as domestic servants, but may have their passports confiscated, be denied permission to leave the place of employment in the home, or face sexual or physical abuse by their employers; men from South Asia come to the UAE to work in the construction industry, but may be subjected to conditions of involuntary servitude as they are coerced to pay off recruitment and travel costs, sometimes having their wages denied for months at a time; victims of child camel jockey trafficking may still remain in the UAE, despite a July 2005 law banning the practice; while all identified victims were repatriated at the government's expense to their home countries, questions persist as to the effectiveness of the ban and the true number of victims
tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - UAE is placed on the Tier 2 Watch List for its failure to show increased efforts to combat trafficking in 2005, particularly in its efforts to address the large-scale trafficking of foreign girls and women for commercial sexual exploitation .
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ae.html#Issues
.

Action Jackson
02-21-2007, 07:05 AM
UAE is far from being a strict Islamic country. But yeah, there are some issues which ATP and WTA should discuss with the tournament directors.

The money is (sadly) the issue here. It's sad, that some of the big names (Federer) skip the European indoors and are willing to fly to Middle East and take the big money instead. It's a long trip and not very easy, since there are no other tournaments in the area. To fly to Dubai, play a couple of matches and take the money and fly out seems to be the plan. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like it much.

Federer trains there and has an apartment there, so it's not really a big trip for him and he is probably there now.

kobulingam
02-21-2007, 07:36 AM
UAE is far from being a strict Islamic country. But yeah, there are some issues which ATP and WTA should discuss with the tournament directors.

The money is (sadly) the issue here. It's sad, that some of the big names (Federer) skip the European indoors and are willing to fly to Middle East and take the big money instead. It's a long trip and not very easy, since there are no other tournaments in the area. To fly to Dubai, play a couple of matches and take the money and fly out seems to be the plan. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like it much.

This doesn't apply to Federer because Dubai is like his second home (Dubai $$$$$ have made it his second home over the last few years).

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 07:39 AM
The whole thing is just a big question mark.

1) UAE policy.

2) Would security be provided?

3) What our state department would advise her on the subject, if she thinks its too risky and not worth it, she won't come.

But I would imagine that even if Shahar and her party are allowed (And I have no idea if they would), I don't know about fans from Israel, which is kind of a shame, because it's relatively close.

I can just see the situation of Mirza drawing a WC and playing against her in the first round, the stands would be packed and it would re-define the words 'partisan crowd'.

nobama
02-21-2007, 08:01 AM
UAE is far from being a strict Islamic country. But yeah, there are some issues which ATP and WTA should discuss with the tournament directors.

The money is (sadly) the issue here. It's sad, that some of the big names (Federer) skip the European indoors and are willing to fly to Middle East and take the big money instead. It's a long trip and not very easy, since there are no other tournaments in the area. To fly to Dubai, play a couple of matches and take the money and fly out seems to be the plan. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like it much.In the latest issue of Tennis magazine Fed says he spends about 2 months per year in Dubai. He uses that as his training base with Tony Roche. Great preparation for the US summer hard court events as when he trains there in July it's about 46C with 75% humidity.

nisha
02-21-2007, 11:19 AM
i dont know why people are making a fuss over he fact roger federer plays at dubai and not in europe this time of the year. its not like he wont be playing in europe during the clay court season. when else is he going to go there and play?

Veronique
02-21-2007, 11:22 AM
From the C.I.A. World Fact Book - 2007
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ae.html#Issues
.

Thanks for the facts, but it still doesn't tell me if Israelis are banned from playing the Dubai Duty Free event. While I'm on a roll, I might as well email Tiger too. He flies there almost every year.

nobama
02-21-2007, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the facts, but it still doesn't tell me if Israelis are banned from playing the Dubai Duty Free event. While I'm on a roll, I might as well email Tiger too. He flies there almost every year.There is a write-up on Dubai in the latest issue of Tennis magazine. According to the ITF there is no ban on any nationality to play in Dubai. And also a quote from de Villiers that no Israeli has ever been prevented from going there to play. According to the Dubai Duty Free website the population of the city is mostly comprised of expatriates and home to some 100,000 Westerners.

And yes, you might as well email Tiger since he's making a helluva lot more money from Dubai than any tennis player is. Got something like $25M upfront for the golf course he's building there and will also get a percentage of the home/villa sales on the property.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 12:35 PM
There is a write-up on Dubai in the latest issue of Tennis magazine. According to the ITF there is no ban on any nationality to play in Dubai. And also a quote from de Villiers that no Israeli has ever been prevented from going there to play. According to the Dubai Duty Free website the population of the city is mostly comprised of expatriates and home to some 100,000 Westerners.

Mirkaland - you are misrepresenting the article. Yes, it said that. But it also said that "in practice, it's not that simple." And quoted Ram because he and Ehrlich were going to play there, but decided against it because they wouldn't be provided with extra security. And was told by the ATP - "The ATP told us basically you can go there to Dubai and to Doha, in Qatar, if you really, really, really want to do it, because there are some other tournaments you can play instead. I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one."

I'll try to scan in the article later.

Julio1974
02-21-2007, 01:32 PM
saying UAE is among the most moderate Middle East countries is like saying South Africa's human rights records is exemplary when compared to uganda, congo, sierra leone etc. lol...

and like tenhound says, what if Israeli fans want to see an Israeli play in Dubai? this is really an ethical decision, if a country will not allow players or fans attend they should not have a tournament...

Absolutely.

zicofirol
02-21-2007, 02:38 PM
Is this thread in the correct place. Can it be moved as it purely seems to be aimed at insulting in Arabian nation and revels in Islamophobia rather than talking about tennis?

it is in teh correct place, its a discussion about the policies of a country and why that country should have its tennis tournament boycotted, It mixes both tennis and politics...

insulting an arabian nation? because of its laws on woman and on banning Israelis from their country, you actually find those laws respectable?

Bobby
02-21-2007, 04:04 PM
it is in teh correct place, its a discussion about the policies of a country and why that country should have its tennis tournament boycotted, It mixes both tennis and politics...

insulting an arabian nation? because of its laws on woman and on banning Israelis from their country, you actually find those laws respectable?

Well, politics is a tricky issue. Someone who is not an arab can't judge their way of living. Their laws and habits may seem strange, but they are happy with their societies.

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 04:46 PM
Mirkaland - you are misrepresenting the article. Yes, it said that. But it also said that "in practice, it's not that simple." And quoted Ram because he and Ehrlich were going to play there, but decided against it because they wouldn't be provided with extra security. And was told by the ATP - "The ATP told us basically you can go there to Dubai and to Doha, in Qatar, if you really, really, really want to do it, because there are some other tournaments you can play instead. I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one."

I'll try to scan in the article later.

Please do.

Yikes, that's actually worse than I thought. It sounds like a combination between "You can force *us* to force *them* to let you in, but we can't vouch for the end result". And "No one is reassuring us you'll be okay".

Seriously, they should all stay away. Even though I would enjoy to see them playing (and winning, especially Andy/Ram) there, just to see how the organizers would, um, cope? :devil:

If anything goes wrong while they are there... you just can't ignore those questions, and I bet that's what Shahar and Andy/Ram are doing, thinking about the worse case scenerio.

I did not like that answer by the ATP at alll! I expected something along the lines of "You should be allowed to play anywhere, and we will do anything to ensure your safety and to make sure you are welcome'.

This is more like "Please, we can't deal with the headache".

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 04:49 PM
Please do.

Yikes, that's actually worse than I thought. It sounds like a combination between "You can force *us* to force *them* to let you in, but we can't vouch for the end result". And "No one is reassuring us you'll be okay".

Seriously, they should all stay away. Even though I would enjoy to see them playing (and winning, especially Andy/Ram) there, just to see how the organizers would, um, cope? :devil:

If anything goes wrong while they are there... you just can't ignore those questions, and I bet that's what Shahar and Andy/Ram are doing, thinking about the worse case scenerio.

I did not like that answer by the ATP at alll! I expected something along the lines of "You should be allowed to play anywhere, and we will do anything to ensure your safety and to make sure you are welcome'.

This is more like "Please, we can't deal with the headache".

I echo that statement completely :yeah: But I am glad that this year they are playing in Memphis. Hopefully all three of these players will live up to their seeding at this tournie.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 05:14 PM
The money is (sadly) the issue here. It's sad, that some of the big names (Federer) skip the European indoors and are willing to fly to Middle East and take the big money instead. It's a long trip and not very easy, since there are no other tournaments in the area. To fly to Dubai, play a couple of matches and take the money and fly out seems to be the plan. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like it much.

I don't know about other reasons, but it is a fact that Tony Roche prefers to meet up there because of its relative proximity to Australia. It is easier for him to make trips back to Australia from there.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 05:42 PM
Or Levy - totally agree. The ATP's reaction is mindboggling.

Here it is - I hope the print is big enough where everyone can read it.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 05:57 PM
:haha:
Check out the blurb under this picture. That is supposedly JHH! It is supposed to come under the next page where the picture continues, but the page divided :)

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 06:00 PM
:lol: R. Federer - glad to see you are so easily amused. :lol: :yeah:

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 06:03 PM
Or Levy - totally agree. The ATP's reaction is mindboggling.

Nico,

I don't think the reaction is mindboggling. What would you suggest, that either the ATP cancel this tournament from its roster or provide the security for players, and if the security fails, then they be responsible for the players' lives? It is an unfortunate situation, but to me it is not hard to understand, imo, that the ATP only give a reluctant approval for players to travel there, since there is the possibility of danger. There are other tournaments played at the same time. This is not a slam. Why should the players want to take the risk?

Didn't Hewitt (for different reasons) also want security in DC? Did ITF step up and say yes? I don't think so.

I am playing devils advocate here. I wish it was not like this, but given the status, I don't see what else the ATP should do.

Julio1974
02-21-2007, 06:05 PM
Well, politics is a tricky issue. Someone who is not an arab can't judge their way of living. Their laws and habits may seem strange, but they are happy with their societies.

SO, what if the ATP had organized a tournament in appartheid South Africa and the ATP had said to a black player "hey budy, you can go but we cannot guarantee you don't get lynched?"

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 06:11 PM
Julio1974,
There are many reasons including religion, race, sexuality, etc., that a player's safety can be compromised. Some of these are officially shunned by the nation, but these officials will turn a blind eye in reality.

To stretch an example, after the Gunther Parche incident, did the ATP tell players that if they played in a country where they owned their main rival, their safety was guaranteed by the ATP? Players also think for themselves and understand risks, you know. If a black player knows the risk of playing in Apartheid S. Africa, he himself will not want to go there.

Julio1974
02-21-2007, 06:20 PM
Julio1974,
There are many reasons including religion, race, sexuality, etc., that a player's safety can be compromised. Some of these are officially shunned by the nation, but these officials will turn a blind eye in reality.

To stretch an example, after the Gunther Parche incident, did the ATP tell players that if they played in a country where they owned their main rival, their safety was guaranteed by the ATP? Players also think for themselves and understand risks, you know. If a black player knows the risk of playing in Apartheid S. Africa, he himself will not want to go there.

I see your point. But I still don't like how ATP officials bends over for Dubai's money.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 06:40 PM
Does it bother anyone else that Dubai's "official stance" is to ban Israeli citizens but Israeli players can play according to the ATP? Did I miss something here? :scratch:If I were a player, no matter my rank, I would never be hypocritical but would support my country in every way.

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 06:48 PM
Nico,

I don't think the reaction is mindboggling. What would you suggest, that either the ATP cancel this tournament from its roster or provide the security for players, and if the security fails, then they be responsible for the players' lives? It is an unfortunate situation, but to me it is not hard to understand, imo, that the ATP only give a reluctant approval for players to travel there, since there is the possibility of danger. There are other tournaments played at the same time. This is not a slam. Why should the players want to take the risk?

Didn't Hewitt (for different reasons) also want security in DC? Did ITF step up and say yes? I don't think so.

I am playing devils advocate here. I wish it was not like this, but given the status, I don't see what else the ATP should do.

It's more about the attitude, really - than about what they say, like it's R&E fault they can't play there, and please - don't ask us, please, pretty please?

They should make it clear that they are more than welcomed to play there, that the ATP is supportive, and this is this what we can provide regarding security and does it work for you?

I'm sure ATP can do SOMETHING regarding security, less while the game is on, but in the sleeping quarters and during practice? Surely they can arrange something.

But I agree that in an open arena like that, one madman is enough and no one is going to do searches at the entrence in Dubai (Cause security is all about prevention, catching a ticking bomb or a raving madman with a gun is a little more difficult).

Obviously, Shahar and Andy/Jonathan are going to listen to what our state department advice them, and knowing our state department - an scenerio of something happening there, with just NO way of Israel being allowed to send any sort of aid with nothing but countries who can't stand us in the near area is just the stuff nightmares are made of, seriously.

Still, that answer gives me as an Israeli a really bad feeling, and I imagine the players feel the same.

nobama
02-21-2007, 06:50 PM
Mirkaland - you are misrepresenting the article. Yes, it said that. But it also said that "in practice, it's not that simple." And quoted Ram because he and Ehrlich were going to play there, but decided against it because they wouldn't be provided with extra security. And was told by the ATP - "The ATP told us basically you can go there to Dubai and to Doha, in Qatar, if you really, really, really want to do it, because there are some other tournaments you can play instead. I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one."

I'll try to scan in the article later.I didn't misrepresent it. The facts according to the ATP and ITF is that no Israeli player is banned from playing in those events. I'm not sure exactly where in the city this event is held but I can't imagine it's a dangerous place to be even if you are Israeli.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 06:54 PM
Sue, it is not the "official stance" of the UAE to ban Israelis from entering. I don't think you will find in their consular services anything written down that prohibits Israelis from entering the country. A lot of what people are writing here is based on the experiences of Israelis (or people who have been to Israel and it is in their passport), whose visas are routinely denied. Not everyone's I'm sure, but probably the majority.

To be fair, I assume visas of Saudis and other citizens from the Muslim countries in the middle east are probably rejected at similar rates for Israel, even though it similarly is not written into Israeli consular laws.


Does it bother anyone else that Dubai's "official stance" is to ban Israeli citizens but Israeli players can play according to the ATP? Did I miss something here? :scratch:If I were a player, no matter my rank, I would never be hypocritical but would support my country in every way.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 06:57 PM
Still, that answer gives me as an Israeli a really bad feeling, and I imagine the players feel the same.

I don't have any evidence, but from your readings of the local papers and such, do you get the sense that Muslims from neighboring nations are also denied visas quite routinely for Israel? Since they are scrutinized so heavily for the U.S.A and rejected so many times (including professional workers, who are in areas like teaching english literature), I assume it is even more so in Israel.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 07:00 PM
This isn't like with Hewitt in Argentina. This is antisemitism, not someone overreacting to a rivalry between two countries.

This also isn't just about a country where as Bobby called it has different laws and habits. Oppressing women and antisemitism aren't cultural values - they are based on hate.

It is all about money. And I'm sad that some of my favorite players still play there despite knowing what Dubai's policies are. :sad:

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 07:04 PM
Does it bother anyone else that Dubai's "official stance" is to ban Israeli citizens but Israeli players can play according to the ATP? Did I miss something here? :scratch:If I were a player, no matter my rank, I would never be hypocritical but would support my country in every way.

I can only speak for myself, but I think it would be exciting for most Israelis to see our players playing in Dubai, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I can't go - why can't you" but something more like "Go show them baby!"

It would be HUGE news, and I think most would look at it as a really good, positive sign in our relationship with at least some of the middle east.

Plus, with almost no time gap, and with the media attention Shahar, especially, is getting in Israel recently - (her match against Serena at the AO got a 12% rating, and it was 4 AM in the morning!) - people would definitly tune in to watch, it would be a real attention grabber.

Or.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:06 PM
Yes, that's the politics, the anti-semitic position of the Muslim middle eastern countries.

It's not that the organizers of the tournament are such people, it is that they belong to a country whose official position is such. Players are not doing this for the government of UAE that supports this position. They are doing it for a small bunch of people who are organizing a good tournament for them. You have to separate the politics from that, and you are not doing that. What has the UAE's official position on women got to do with this tournament??

Btw, the comment about Hewitt was misunderstood by you. The point is he wanted security. Whether his life is in danger because of anti-semitism or anti-Hewittism is irrelevant. If something had happened to him, it would not matter what the causae was because it would be too late. He said he needed to be protected, and the ITF did not support him.

Frankly, it is impossible like Or Levy said, to cater for every possibility of security. The ATP simply cannot do that for one instance (like Dubai) and then not do it in every instance, like protecting gay players from homophobes, and black players from racists, and so on. And they cannot and should not protect only one set of players for one set of reasons, and then not others.


This isn't like with Hewitt in Argentina. This is antisemitism, not someone overreacting to a rivalry between two countries.

This also isn't just about a country where as Bobby called it has different laws and habits. Oppressing women and antisemitism aren't cultural values - they are based on hate.

It is all about money. And I'm sad that some of my favorite players still play there despite knowing what Dubai's policies are. :sad:

Julio1974
02-21-2007, 07:07 PM
This isn't like with Hewitt in Argentina. This is antisemitism, not someone overreacting to a rivalry between two countries.

This also isn't just about a country where as Bobby called it has different laws and habits. Oppressing women and antisemitism aren't cultural values - they are based on hate.

It is all about money. And I'm sad that some of my favorite players still play there despite knowing what Dubai's policies are. :sad:

:worship:

Bobby
02-21-2007, 07:10 PM
SO, what if the ATP had organized a tournament in appartheid South Africa and the ATP had said to a black player "hey budy, you can go but we cannot guarantee you don't get lynched?"

I see your point. I was merely talking about the Islamic cultural values in general terms. The ATP is in no position to make a statement when it comes to UAE laws and society. However, if the country can't guarantee players' safety, then it's a different story. If that's the case, then the ATP should think whether the event should be played.

My point is that the Islamic way of living is not wrong, even if we don't quite understand it.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 07:19 PM
Sue, it is not the "official stance" of the UAE to ban Israelis from entering. I don't think you will find in their consular services anything written down that prohibits Israelis from entering the country. A lot of what people are writing here is based on the experiences of Israelis (or people who have been to Israel and it is in their passport), whose visas are routinely denied. Not everyone's I'm sure, but probably the majority.

To be fair, I assume visas of Saudis and other citizens from the Muslim countries in the middle east are probably rejected at similar rates for Israel, even though it similarly is not written into Israeli consular laws.

Most likely although I was quoting that article. Might be misrepesentation by the authors who knows but I appreciate your input.:)

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 07:22 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I think it would be exciting for most Israelis to see our players playing in Dubai, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I can't go - why can't you" but something more like "Go show them baby!"

It would be HUGE news, and I think most would look at it as a really good, positive sign in our relationship with at least some of the middle east.

Plus, with almost no time gap, and with the media attention Shahar, especially, is getting in Israel recently - (her match against Serena at the AO got a 12% rating, and it was 4 AM in the morning!) - people would definitly tune in to watch, it would be a real attention grabber.

Or.


I can see your point-sort of like "f*ck you" here I am in your face. I prefer the f*ck you I am not coming attitude :lol: Then again although I am jewish I am not Israeli. ;)

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:24 PM
Most likely although I was quoting that article. Might be misrepesentation by the authors who knows but I appreciate your input.:)

Oh, I am sure they reject 99.9% of Israeli applications for visas. But they probably won't come out and put that in writing (travel.state.gov has all the information and applications and I don't think it's on that) on a government document. I am sure that all consular officers are implicitly told to do so. In fact, I would say they probably try to reject as many visas for people of Jewish origin, but they cannot do that without suffering the wrath of too many more countries than just Israel alone! :)
It is shameful, but this is the politics. I really think we should separate the tennis players and the every day people like tournament organizers for Dubai from this government propaganda.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 07:27 PM
SO, what if the ATP had organized a tournament in appartheid South Africa and the ATP had said to a black player "hey budy, you can go but we cannot guarantee you don't get lynched?"


You folks are awfully presumptuous about Dubai and have never been there, have you? To say it's anything like apartheid africa, yeah that's a huge statement.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 07:27 PM
Yes, that's the politics, the anti-semitic position of the Muslim middle eastern countries.

It's not that the organizers of the tournament are such people, it is that they belong to a country whose official position is such. Players are not doing this for the government of UAE that supports this position. They are doing it for a small bunch of people who are organizing a good tournament for them. You have to separate the politics from that, and you are not doing that. What has the UAE's official position on women got to do with this tournament??

Btw, the comment about Hewitt was misunderstood by you. The point is he wanted security. Whether his life is in danger because of anti-semitism or anti-Hewittism is irrelevant. If something had happened to him, it would not matter what the causae was because it would be too late. He said he needed to be protected, and the ITF did not support him.

Frankly, it is impossible like Or Levy said, to cater for every possibility of security. The ATP simply cannot do that for one instance (like Dubai) and then not do it in every instance, like protecting gay players from homophobes, and black players from racists, and so on. And they cannot and should not protect only one set of players for one set of reasons, and then not others.

Once again I totally agree- and I am a woman and a jew;)

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 07:30 PM
Sue, it is not the "official stance" of the UAE to ban Israelis from entering. I don't think you will find in their consular services anything written down that prohibits Israelis from entering the country. A lot of what people are writing here is based on the experiences of Israelis (or people who have been to Israel and it is in their passport), whose visas are routinely denied. Not everyone's I'm sure, but probably the majority.

To be fair, I assume visas of Saudis and other citizens from the Muslim countries in the middle east are probably rejected at similar rates for Israel, even though it similarly is not written into Israeli consular laws.

Easy enough to check on - so I did - here is one of many sites that says that Iraeli nationals cannot enter the UAE.

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/Travel/default.asp?SubCatID=43

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 07:38 PM
I don't have any evidence, but from your readings of the local papers and such, do you get the sense that Muslims from neighboring nations are also denied visas quite routinely for Israel? Since they are scrutinized so heavily for the U.S.A and rejected so many times (including professional workers, who are in areas like teaching english literature), I assume it is even more so in Israel.

Well, it's complicated, in more ways than in the US. Because most muslim countries usually do not let their citizens come here, someone from a muslim country requesting to enter Israel would raise a lot of questions and they need to be able to answer them and explain why they want to visit. If it's player for a tournament, that's relatively easy, but "don't you mind what your goverment say when they see an Israeli stamp in your password" is going to be asked. It isn't like in theo US where it isn't exactly a hardship to explain WHY They are going there :)

Some *are* rejected due to security concerns, of course.

Okay, I'm checking.

Here is, according to nationality - tourists visiting Israel during 2006 (I didn't put Europe/US data here...)

ASIA -OTHER 42,938
CYPRUS 7,676
TURKEY 15,791
JORDAN 15,095
OTHER 5,906

AFRICA 60,543
SOUTH AFRICA 16,589
ZIMBABWE 2,948
EGYPT 4,827
MOROCCO 2,503
NIGERIA 24,606
OTHER 9,070

Well, there are many countries notably missing, but those are the same countries that forbid their citizens from entering (Marocco is less of a problem, we can go there even though there aren't any diplomatic relationship) so I think they just aren't coming. I don't think I have any data regarding anyone who was refused entrence/sent back and didn't get past security.

Oh, we also have a lot of asylum seekers/refugees from Sudan, because of the situation in Darfur. Now THAT's an issue.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:39 PM
Easy enough to check on - so I did - here is one of many sites that says that Iraeli nationals cannot enter the UAE.

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/Travel/default.asp?SubCatID=43

No, I don't think that's an official government of UAE site. Here is the site, the official UAE embassy in the USA
http://www.uae-embassy.org/html/consulate.htm and I dont think you are going to find an official statement on their position on Israelis on an official site.

And btw, this is what I wrote to Sue:

Oh, I am sure they reject 99.9% of Israeli applications for visas. But they probably won't come out and put that in writing (travel.state.gov has all the information and applications and I don't think it's on that) on a government document. I am sure that all consular officers are implicitly told to do so.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Thanks Or. Yes, it is a censored observation because obviously we can't see how many applied and were rejected. Just how many ended up coming. But is surely encouraging to see visitors from countries with majority Muslim like Turkey and Jordan.

Well, it's complicated, in more ways than in the US. Because most muslim countries usually do not let their citizens come here, someone from a muslim country requesting to enter Israel would raise a lot of questions and they need to be able to answer them and explain why they want to visit. If it's player for a tournament, that's relatively easy, but "don't you mind what your goverment say when they see an Israeli stamp in your password" is going to be asked. It isn't like in theo US where it isn't exactly a hardship to explain WHY They are going there :)

Some *are* rejected due to security concerns, of course.

ezekiel
02-21-2007, 07:46 PM
No, I don't think that's an official government of UAE site. Here is the site, the official UAE embassy in the USA
http://www.uae-embassy.org/html/consulate.htm and I dont think you are going to find an official statement on their position on Israelis on an official site.

And btw, this is what I wrote to Sue:


and why would embassy in Washington have a statement on Israel?

Anyway it's well known by anyone who knows that Israeli citizens are not allowed to enter in majority of muslim/arab countries except for Egypt and Jordan . I don't think you are disputing this

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:51 PM
and why would embassy in Washington have a statement on Israel?

Anyway it's well known by anyone who knows that Israeli citizens are not allowed to enter in majority of muslim/arab countries except for Egypt and Jordan . I don't think you are disputing this

Because UAE is not permitted to have a consulate in Israel if I am not mistaken. So Israelis wanting to travel there would have to apply in a UAE consulate elsewhere. I mean, I have applied for a visa to India in Germany and I am not German.

And yes, you are right, I am definitely not disputing it. As I wrote above, I imagine 99.9% of Israel passports or passports with Israeli visas are rejected. Just that I do not think you will find it in an official government document of UAE.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 07:52 PM
No, I don't think that's an official government of UAE site. Here is the site, the official UAE embassy in the USA
http://www.uae-embassy.org/html/consulate.htm and I dont think you are going to find an official statement on their position on Israelis on an official site.



:confused:

That's the embassy site for the USA. Of course they wouldn't mention Israel.

R.Federer
02-21-2007, 07:59 PM
:confused:

That's the embassy site for the USA. Of course they wouldn't mention Israel.

Well, as you might be aware there is no UAE consulate in Tel Aviv. I am very sure of that.

But that itself ought not to be an issue because you can apply for a visa when residing in a country different from that of your passport. Otherwise --- where do you think the Israelis who have been denied a visa to the UAE and written about it, applied? :confused:

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 08:05 PM
I'm not Muslim, Jewish or Dubian:confused:, I have to say I don't completely agree with a country being selective about who they let in their country, I'd wish America would do the same. And givien the current state of the middle east, and the state that it has been in for the last 2,000 years, I don't see why they wouldn't. Some tennis fans are starting to sound like the U.S, if we just go over there we can defintly solve the problem with a little diplomacy, democracy and mediation. It is not the atps jobs to police relations between nations. They have not liked each ohter for 2,000 years it isn't going to change because an organiztions has a problem with it. So I don't see how bannning tennis from people who live in Dubai is going to help. The atp is only responsible for making sure all there players who want to play, play and to my knowledge they've done that. If a Israeli tennis player decides to skip this one because of worry, then that's smart. One out of many tournaments they won't play that year. It's not like it's some organized discrimination by the gov't and if it is they ain't letting anyone know about it. That's like me owning I don't know a basketball team and segregations has been long gone in this country, but it's not a secret racism is still around. So I say well there are people in the south who are racist and I have a feeling that the local gov't is discrimating against black people, which very well maybe true, so i'm not going to let my team go down there to play in the south until everyone's opinion changes. that's crazy. as long as the players are allowed to play the owners of that team obligations are filled. And that reminds me John Mayer actually did a concert In Dubai not too long ago and it was this huge publicity thing and he is half Jewish or something, one of his parents are Jewish and he makes no bones about that, I wonder if they knew.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 08:06 PM
:confused:

That's the embassy site for the USA. Of course they wouldn't mention Israel.


Actually america is quite partial to israel. that's why so many muslim have problems with us, the whole favortism thing and all

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 08:08 PM
Well, as you might be aware there is no UAE consulate in Tel Aviv. I am very sure of that.

But that itself ought not to be an issue because you can apply for a visa when residing in a country different from that of your passport. Otherwise --- where do you think the Israelis who have been denied a visa to the UAE and written about it, applied? :confused:

I have to give this one to you R.Federer - I can't find an official UAE site that says that Israeli nationals are not allowed to enter the UAE.

As you said, I'm sure they are rejected even though they are not specifically banned.

Or Levy
02-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Thanks Or. Yes, it is a censored observation because obviously we can't see how many applied and were rejected. Just how many ended up coming. But is surely encouraging to see visitors from countries with majority Muslim like Turkey and Jordan.

Well, we have peace (consulate and everything...) with Jordan since 1995, so that's a different matter, and Turkey allows Israelis in, LOL, it's one of the favorite vacation destination for Israelis, and there is a consulate, trading relationship, and usually a decent relationship, a fickle one, but decent, I guess.

I was in Egypt though myself 11 years ago, with my parents as a teenager... it is considered to be security hazzard regardless of the peace though nowadays, hot security warning every summer. Which doesn't stop LOADS of Israelis from going, our state department warning be damned, the cheap prices are too attractive :)

kapranos
02-21-2007, 08:16 PM
My main problem with Dubai is that it's pointless. It's not there the sport will be promoted. I'm sure there is about 0 local who attend the tournament.

By itself it's not that much an issue, but when you add the fact Israeli can't play, well that's 2 very negative about the tournament. If a tournament would ban black players, who would enough stupid to say "politics" or "human rights" have nothing to do with sport.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 08:17 PM
My main problem with Dubai is that it's pointless. It's not there the sport will be promoted. I'm sure there is about 0 local who attend the tournament.

By itself it's not that much an issue, but when you add the fact Israeli can't play, well that's 2 very negative about the tournament. If a tournament would ban black players, who would enough stupid to say "politics" or "human rights" have nothing to do with sport.

O.K did I miss something when did they ban anyone from playing

kapranos
02-21-2007, 08:19 PM
O.K did I miss something when did they ban anyone from playing

Well there would be way too many obstacles for an Israel player to play Dubai (it's not even sure he would get a visa), so it's pretty much the same to say they're banned. Excluded if you prefer.

nobama
02-21-2007, 08:51 PM
Yes, that's the politics, the anti-semitic position of the Muslim middle eastern countries.

It's not that the organizers of the tournament are such people, it is that they belong to a country whose official position is such. Players are not doing this for the government of UAE that supports this position. They are doing it for a small bunch of people who are organizing a good tournament for them. You have to separate the politics from that, and you are not doing that. What has the UAE's official position on women got to do with this tournament??

Btw, the comment about Hewitt was misunderstood by you. The point is he wanted security. Whether his life is in danger because of anti-semitism or anti-Hewittism is irrelevant. If something had happened to him, it would not matter what the causae was because it would be too late. He said he needed to be protected, and the ITF did not support him.

Frankly, it is impossible like Or Levy said, to cater for every possibility of security. The ATP simply cannot do that for one instance (like Dubai) and then not do it in every instance, like protecting gay players from homophobes, and black players from racists, and so on. And they cannot and should not protect only one set of players for one set of reasons, and then not others.Great post. :worship:

Socket
02-21-2007, 08:51 PM
No, I don't think that's an official government of UAE site. Here is the site, the official UAE embassy in the USA
http://www.uae-embassy.org/html/consulate.htm and I dont think you are going to find an official statement on their position on Israelis on an official site.

And btw, this is what I wrote to Sue:

Oh, for crying out loud, look at the bottom of the page at the right. The site CLEARLY says "Government of Dubai, Department of Tourism & Commerce Marketing." How much more official can you get?

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

See also: the site for the Dubai World Cup, expressly stating that Israelis cannot get visas: http://www.dubaiworldcup.com/media/accreditation_visa.asp

and http://www.asiatraveltips.com/UAEVisaRequirements.shtml

and http://www.uae-pages.com/tourism/entering-dubai.html

and http://www.dubai.com/s/dubaicity/index11.htm

which indicate that anybody who has visited Israel, but is not an Israeli, would not get a visa.

Guess Federer won't be playing Davis Cup in Israel anytime soon. :rolleyes:

Henry Chinaski
02-21-2007, 08:54 PM
ATP Havana would be interesting.

dorkino
02-21-2007, 08:58 PM
The thread is full of misinforming data starting from the Jews issue, women prevented from living normal life there without even ever getting acquainted with women from Emirates.
Not to mention the foolish launching of accusations using the word semitism and hence antisemitism following media's propaganda without even caring to search for the true meaning and finding out who are included in "semitism" word.

nobama
02-21-2007, 09:00 PM
Well there would be way too many obstacles for an Israel player to play Dubai (it's not even sure he would get a visa), so it's pretty much the same to say they're banned. Excluded if you prefer.According to the Tennis magazine article (someone posted a scan a few pages back) deVillers was quoted saying the tournament organizers said any Israeli who wanted to play in the event would be able to. I have a hard time believing if an Israeli decided to play in that event there would be a major uproar or or this player would have to fear for their life.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 09:04 PM
Oh, for crying out loud, look at the bottom of the page at the right. The site CLEARLY says "Government of Dubai, Department of Tourism & Commerce Marketing." How much more official can you get?

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

See also: the site for the Dubai World Cup, expressly stating that Israelis cannot get visas: http://www.dubaiworldcup.com/media/accreditation_visa.asp

and http://www.asiatraveltips.com/UAEVisaRequirements.shtml

and http://www.uae-pages.com/tourism/entering-dubai.html

and http://www.dubai.com/s/dubaicity/index11.htm

which indicate that anybody who has visited Israel, but is not an Israeli, would not get a visa.

Guess Federer won't be playing Davis Cup in Israel anytime soon. :rolleyes:

Oh R. Federer - I'm going to have to take back what I said. :eek: :lol:

Missed that on the bottom of the page.

nobama
02-21-2007, 09:21 PM
To all those who think players should boycott the Dubai tournament, do they also think that Western nations should have diplomatic ties with Iran? I'm not aware of anyone from the UAE government suggesting publically that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, which the leader in Iran has said. I think the last thing tennis players should do is get involved in politics. If they boycott Dubai where else should they boycott? The USA/UK/Australia because of the war in Iraq? China because of their less than stellar human rights record? Where does it end?

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 09:25 PM
To all those who think players should boycott the Dubai tournament, do they also think that Western nations should have diplomatic ties with Iran? I'm not aware of anyone from the UAE government suggesting publically that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, which the leader in Iran has said. I think the last thing tennis players should do is get involved in politics. If they boycott Dubai where else should they boycott? The USA/UK/Australia because of the war in Iraq? China because of their less than stellar human rights record? Where does it end?

Exactly, there are plenty of places that the atp should boycott, why not boycott everywhere.

Deboogle!.
02-21-2007, 09:40 PM
To all those who think players should boycott the Dubai tournament, do they also think that Western nations should have diplomatic ties with Iran? I'm not aware of anyone from the UAE government suggesting publically that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, which the leader in Iran has said. I think the last thing tennis players should do is get involved in politics. If they boycott Dubai where else should they boycott? The USA/UK/Australia because of the war in Iraq? China because of their less than stellar human rights record? Where does it end?You're completely missing the point, though. The point is not that the tennis establishments should get involved in world politics, the point is that the tennis establishment should be wary of places where THEIR OWN PLAYERS would not be welcome. Anyone can play a tournament in the US, the UK, China. Anyone CANNOT play in Dubai. I don't care what the ATP says. The fact that Shahar Peer is playing a Tier III tournament instead of Dubai, to me, says it all. As Andy Ram said, he'd love to play Dubai (and I have to agree with Or that I think it would be fantastic if they COULD play in Dubai), but if you have Andy Ram saying that he feels the ATP would really rather him not play in Dubai, then this is a TENNIS problem. It's not a politics problem, it's not a human rights problem, it is a tennis problem. The war in Iraq, China's human rights problems, RUSSIA's human rights problems, etc etc etc etc. They are problems, but nothing tennis need involve itself with. The Dubai issue involves tennis, because players are affected. I hope you can see and appreciate the difference.

And just for good measure, if a Taiwanese player couldn't play in mainland China or something like that, I would feel just as strongly.

NicoFan
02-21-2007, 09:42 PM
You're completely missing the point, though. The point is not that the tennis establishments should get involved in world politics, the point is that the tennis establishment should be wary of places where THEIR OWN PLAYERS would not be welcome. Anyone can play a tournament in the US, the UK, China. Anyone CANNOT play in Dubai. I don't care what the ATP says. The fact that Shahar Peer is playing a Tier III tournament instead of Dubai, to me, says it all. As Andy Ram said, he'd love to play Dubai (and I have to agree with Or that I think it would be fantastic if they COULD play in Dubai), but if you have Andy Ram saying that he feels the ATP would really rather him not play in Dubai, then this is a TENNIS problem. It's not a politics problem, it's not a human rights problem, it is a tennis problem. The war in Iraq, China's human rights problems, RUSSIA's human rights problems, etc etc etc etc. They are problems, but nothing tennis need involve itself with. The Dubai issue involves tennis, because players are affected. I hope you can see and appreciate the difference.

:yeah:

I was preparing a response in my head, but don't need to anymore. You said it all.

Deboogle!.
02-21-2007, 09:44 PM
:yeah:

I was preparing a response in my head, but don't need to anymore. You said it all.:o

thanks for scanning that article, eyeopening to say the least.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 10:11 PM
I get it but that's still speculation, if a player doesn't feel comfortable playing in particular country then that's there right to not play all the atp is responsible for is making sure there players can play and to my knowledge they have. If there are really nice they'd do their best to make sure their players are safe. But I don't feel they are responsible for any more than that.

Deboogle!.
02-21-2007, 10:13 PM
I get it but that's still speculation, if a player doesn't feel comfortable playing in particular country then that's there right to not play all the atp is responsible for is making sure there players can play and to my knowledge they have. If there are really nice they'd do their best to make sure their players are safe. But I don't feel they are responsible for any more than that.Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but if a top doubles player is so sure of something happening that he tells a major tennis magazine that he feels the ATP is pressuring them not to play there, then that is a big big big big problem. The ATP was *supposed* to be the organization FOR THE PLAYERS.

Problem for me. Can't help it.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 10:20 PM
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but if a top doubles player is so sure of something happening that he tells a major tennis magazine that he feels the ATP is pressuring them not to play there, then that is a big big big big problem. The ATP was *supposed* to be the organization FOR THE PLAYERS.

Problem for me. Can't help it.

No I agree, I just don't have major problems with it, but that might change if I were a perfessional tennis player.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but if a top doubles player is so sure of something happening that he tells a major tennis magazine that he feels the ATP is pressuring them not to play there, then that is a big big big big problem. The ATP was *supposed* to be the organization FOR THE PLAYERS.

Problem for me. Can't help it.

I did not read that at all. I assume he wanted extra security because of what MIGHT happen not because something would absolutely. And it sounded more that he felt playing Dubai would be a public relations coup for the ATP,the ITF, Israel and Dubai/UAE. But IF it went sour think of the nightmare that would ensue in public relations and politics.

soraya
02-21-2007, 10:43 PM
Yes, that's the politics, the anti-semitic position of the Muslim middle eastern countries.

It's not that the organizers of the tournament are such people, it is that they belong to a country whose official position is such. Players are not doing this for the government of UAE that supports this position. They are doing it for a small bunch of people who are organizing a good tournament for them. You have to separate the politics from that, and you are not doing that. What has the UAE's official position on women got to do with this tournament??

Btw, the comment about Hewitt was misunderstood by you. The point is he wanted security. Whether his life is in danger because of anti-semitism or anti-Hewittism is irrelevant. If something had happened to him, it would not matter what the causae was because it would be too late. He said he needed to be protected, and the ITF did not support him.

Frankly, it is impossible like Or Levy said, to cater for every possibility of security. The ATP simply cannot do that for one instance (like Dubai) and then not do it in every instance, like protecting gay players from homophobes, and black players from racists, and so on. And they cannot and should not protect only one set of players for one set of reasons, and then not others.

Excellent post. what are people expecting when the two countries have not even diplomatic ties? The ATP is in a no win situation, they can not offer 100% security to players and they clearly don't want to be liable.

Deboogle!.
02-21-2007, 10:43 PM
No I agree, I just don't have major problems with it, but that might change if I were a perfessional tennis player.Then i'm jealous of you that you've never experienced what it feels like to feel unwelcome somewhere because of your religion or nationality. I did not read that at all. I assume he wanted extra security because of what MIGHT happen not because something would absolutely. And it sounded more that he felt playing Dubai would be a public relations coup for the ATP,the ITF, Israeli and Dubai. But IF it went sour think of the nightmare that would ensue in public relations and politics.Well he said this "I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one" - that is very problematic for me. The ATP is supposed to represent the players. They should not tolerate that one of their own would have that much of a problem playing there. And they should certainly not be such cowards to shy away from the problem. it's very hard for me to accept the ATP encouraging players not to play somewhere because of their religion/nationality.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Well he said this "I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one" - that is very problematic for me. The ATP is supposed to represent the players. They should not tolerate that one of their own would have that much of a problem playing there. And they should certainly not be such cowards to shy away from the problem. it's very hard for me to accept the ATP encouraging players not to play somewhere because of their religion/nationality.

I agree with that sentiment. But that is not what I was referring to.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 10:57 PM
Then i'm jealous of you that you've never experienced what it feels like to feel unwelcome somewhere because of your religion or nationality. Well he said this "I think the ATP would prefer that Jonathan and myself play different tournaments than that one" - that is very problematic for me. The ATP is supposed to represent the players. They should not tolerate that one of their own would have that much of a problem playing there. And they should certainly not be such cowards to shy away from the problem. it's very hard for me to accept the ATP encouraging players not to play somewhere because of their religion/nationality.

does race count? what are you talking about I'm black I know what it feels like to be uncomfortable in plenty of situations. Hence my analogy of the basketball team in the south, it is not the atp job to make everyone feel comfortable, they're safe, they can play, there job is done

ezekiel
02-21-2007, 11:10 PM
Because UAE is not permitted to have a consulate in Israel if I am not mistaken. So Israelis wanting to travel there would have to apply in a UAE consulate elsewhere. I mean, I have applied for a visa to India in Germany and I am not German.

And yes, you are right, I am definitely not disputing it. As I wrote above, I imagine 99.9% of Israel passports or passports with Israeli visas are rejected. Just that I do not think you will find it in an official government document of UAE.

Do I really need to spell it out

100% of israeli citizens are rejected , no ifs or buts as of yet. Most arab/muslim countries don't recognize Israel and want to replace it with a muslim country and yes it's official policy written in paper and repeated in public

Tennis Fool
02-21-2007, 11:26 PM
I think the last thing tennis players should do is get involved in politics.
Why not, if they feel strongly about something. Arthur Ashe and BJK were very political in their causes.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 11:33 PM
Dubai is unusual, in that its population comprises mainly expatriates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate),( An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence).with UAE nationals (Emiratis) constituting the minority. The majority of these expatriates come from South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) and South East Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_East_Asia). A quarter of the population reportedly traces their origins to neighboring Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai#_note-2) Dubai is also home to some 100,000 British and other Western expatriates. The UAE government does not offer any form of naturalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization) or permanent residence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_resident) to expatriates. However, foreigners are permitted to purchase and own specifically-designated property without a local partner or sponsor ("freeholds," as described below).
Nearly all of the commercial establishments are run by expatriates with a silent local partner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partner) who merely "rents" the business license for a negotiated annual fee without taking part in any capital investment. The numerous free trade zones allow for full expatriate ownership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai

So I guess it's not just Israelis that they hate

Tennis Fool
02-21-2007, 11:38 PM
does race count? what are you talking about I'm black I know what it feels like to be uncomfortable in plenty of situations. Hence my analogy of the basketball team in the south, it is not the atp job to make everyone feel comfortable, they're safe, they can play, there job is done

I think this is not an accurate analogy because the situation in the Middle East is more complicated. You have a political situation in which one country is not recognized by another, so have do you navigate it diplomatically?

In the Jim Crow South, early century in the North or in apartheid Africa, you are dealing with one nation that is directly discriminating against its own citizens because of race. It is easier to determine a policy where the line of discrimination is cut and dry.

kapranos
02-21-2007, 11:40 PM
Bottom line, it's too complicated for an Israeli player to play Dubai and it's problematic. It's not some challenger but a top tournament after Masters Series.

What if Federer was from Israel? I mean, the outrage would be way bigger. At the moment it's not because there are no known name from Israel. We can't really call Peer a big name.

Verd
02-21-2007, 11:42 PM
I agree with that sentiment. But that is not what I was referring to.

The thing is that you guys are both right: the problem is not actually with the tournament itself (I mean, we've already established that the tournament wouldn't turn down any player due to nationality) but with what the ATP is telling their players. I highly doubt the Dubai tournament directors would want the bad publicity that would surely follow if "something happened," even if that something were to be a relatively minor incident. From a corporate perspective I can see why the ATP wouldn't want Erlich and Ram to go, but it really needs to give them full support if they want to go to Dubai - besides being the right thing to do it would be a great show of goodwill.

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 11:45 PM
I think this is not an accurate analogy because the situation in the Middle East is more complicated. You have a political situation in which one country is not recognized by another, so have do you navigate it diplomatically?

In the Jim Crow South, early century in the North or in apartheid Africa, you are dealing with one nation that is directly discriminating against its own citizens because of race. It is easier to determine a policy where the line of discrimination is cut and dry.

Not really I responded to the comment that was made that I didn't know how it felt to be unwelcome some where, so it's not that different. No it's not, so what, a country doesn't recognize another country, plenty of countries do, the atp doesn't have any responsibility to diplomatically navigate anything.

cobalt60
02-21-2007, 11:46 PM
The thing is that you guys are both right: the problem is not actually with the tournament itself (I mean, we've already established that the tournament wouldn't turn down any player due to nationality) but with what the ATP is telling their players. I highly doubt the Dubai tournament directors would want the bad publicity that would surely follow if "something happened," even if that something were to be a relatively minor incident. From a corporate perspective I can see why the ATP wouldn't want Erlich and Ram to go, but it really needs to give them full support if they want to go to Dubai - besides being the right thing to do it would be a great show of goodwill.

Merci!

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:12 AM
You're completely missing the point, though. The point is not that the tennis establishments should get involved in world politics, the point is that the tennis establishment should be wary of places where THEIR OWN PLAYERS would not be welcome. Anyone can play a tournament in the US, the UK, China. Anyone CANNOT play in Dubai. I don't care what the ATP says. The fact that Shahar Peer is playing a Tier III tournament instead of Dubai, to me, says it all. As Andy Ram said, he'd love to play Dubai (and I have to agree with Or that I think it would be fantastic if they COULD play in Dubai), but if you have Andy Ram saying that he feels the ATP would really rather him not play in Dubai, then this is a TENNIS problem. It's not a politics problem, it's not a human rights problem, it is a tennis problem. The war in Iraq, China's human rights problems, RUSSIA's human rights problems, etc etc etc etc. They are problems, but nothing tennis need involve itself with. The Dubai issue involves tennis, because players are affected. I hope you can see and appreciate the difference.

And just for good measure, if a Taiwanese player couldn't play in mainland China or something like that, I would feel just as strongly.Until someone can prove that Israeli ATP/WTA players are not be allowed to play, then no I don't see the difference. According to the ITF and ATP they can. And I can't imagine the tournament director saying they can play if there was a real threat to their personal security. Why would they want to be involved in a potential dangerous situation?

I've never been to the city of Dubai and I'm assuming most here haven't either. So how can any of us comment on how dangerous it might be for an Israel sports person to participate in a sporting event there? Hatred towards Israel and Jews isn't reserved just to the middle east. Former French Prime Minister Michel Rocard said that the establishment of a sovereign Jewish state had been an “historic mistake.” He also referred to Israel as a state based on racism that “continues to pose a threat to its neighbors until today.” And don't forget the French ambassador to Britain who at a party referred to Israel as a "shitty little country" and then asked "Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?" Yes I know it's not official state policy in France to ban Israelis from entering the county but I'm sure there are plenty of places outside of the middle east where Israelis don't feel comfortable/welcome/safe.

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:15 AM
The thing is that you guys are both right: the problem is not actually with the tournament itself (I mean, we've already established that the tournament wouldn't turn down any player due to nationality) but with what the ATP is telling their players. I highly doubt the Dubai tournament directors would want the bad publicity that would surely follow if "something happened," even if that something were to be a relatively minor incident. From a corporate perspective I can see why the ATP wouldn't want Erlich and Ram to go, but it really needs to give them full support if they want to go to Dubai - besides being the right thing to do it would be a great show of goodwill.I agree with this. I don't think the ATP or the WTA should be giving Israeli players anything less than full support if they want to play in Dubai. But what exactly does "full support" mean? Extra security?

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:18 AM
Why not, if they feel strongly about something. Arthur Ashe and BJK were very political in their causes.
If they feel strongly about a cause, fine. But I'd prefer they stick to what they know best, playing tennis.

Verd
02-22-2007, 12:31 AM
Why not, if they feel strongly about something. Arthur Ashe and BJK were very political in their causes.

What one has to remember with Ashe and BJK is although they were very political, they were political about matters that were deeply personal to them. Would we have seen ANY male player care as deeply and get involved as deeply as BJK in the formation of the WTA? Same with Navratilova and Mauresmo: they didn't come out of the closet because they wanted to "help gays" or advance the cause of lesbians everywhere, they simply were just being honest about their personal lives.

I'm not trying to sound cynical but for the most part athletes in any sport are not going to be political unless it's related to an issue that touches them personally, and even if they do get political we aren't going to hear about it unless the athlete happens to be a famous top player. Until we have a player in the Top 5 in singles from Israel who starts making a big stink about the discouragement the ATP is giving them re. Dubai, I highly doubt anything will change.

Veronique
02-22-2007, 12:41 AM
My effort to contact TTC today about this issue were fruitless. Those I got on the phone had no idea what I was talking about. The GA office referred me to the main headquarters in CA where I left a message on some answering machine. The host of Matchpoint is a local journalist. Hopefully I can convince him to research and bring up this subject on the program.

I emailed Tiger earlier today. But of course he's busy going for his 8th straight win on the PGA out in the Arizona desert. Too bad Israel doesn't have a Tiger, Federer, or even a Williams sister. An official Dubai government website clearly states that Israelis will be refused entry in this country. That's all the proof that I need.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 12:44 AM
My effort to contact TTC today about this issue were fruitless. Those I got on the phone had no idea what I was talking about. The GA office referred me to the main headquarters in CA where I left a message on some answering machine. The host of Matchpoint is a local journalist. Hopefully I can convince him to research and bring up this subject on the program.

I emailed Tiger earlier today. But of course he's busy going for his 8th straight win on the PGA out in the Arizona desert. Too bad Israel doesn't have a Tiger, Federer, or even a Williams sister. An official Dubai government website clearly states that Israelis will be refused entry in this country. That's all the proof that I need.

Well I don't believe it because the atp said that all their players were allowed in, and until one of them steps up and says i was forced or paid off or threatened to withdraw then I'll go with their word. And has any Israli ever been denied entry into dubai round here, alright then shut up.:)

kapranos
02-22-2007, 01:20 AM
The ATP doesn't issue visas. Just because they say any player can enter doesn't mean the country will let the player enter. It is the country that has the last word, and the U.A.E. has no obligation toward the ATP.

It's simple, you may NOT enter the U.A.E. if you have an Israel passport. Which part is not clear??? I don't know if they make exception, even if they do, it's only highly hypothetical. There is no assurance about any future U.A.E. decision.

Veronique
02-22-2007, 01:47 AM
Well I don't believe it because the atp said that all their players were allowed in, and until one of them steps up and says i was forced or paid off or threatened to withdraw then I'll go with their word. And has any Israli ever been denied entry into dubai round here, alright then shut up.:)

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

Can you read? What part of "Copyright © 2005 - 2007 Department of Tourism & Commerce Marketing. All rights Reserved" do you not get? Why should I believe the ATP over Dubai Department of Tourism? You have no right to tell me to shut up by the way.

Tennis Fool
02-22-2007, 01:59 AM
What one has to remember with Ashe and BJK is although they were very political, they were political about matters that were deeply personal to them. Would we have seen ANY male player care as deeply and get involved as deeply as BJK in the formation of the WTA? Same with Navratilova and Mauresmo: they didn't come out of the closet because they wanted to "help gays" or advance the cause of lesbians everywhere, they simply were just being honest about their personal lives.

I'm not trying to sound cynical but for the most part athletes in any sport are not going to be political unless it's related to an issue that touches them personally, and even if they do get political we aren't going to hear about it unless the athlete happens to be a famous top player. Until we have a player in the Top 5 in singles from Israel who starts making a big stink about the discouragement the ATP is giving them re. Dubai, I highly doubt anything will change.
Yes, but for AA and BJK, the personal was political. With BJK, I was referring to organizing the WTA tour (she was actually outed as a lesbian by an ex-lover and lost endorsements thereafter).

RickDaStick
02-22-2007, 02:07 AM
Vamos Dubai!! Just enjoy the tennis and quit crying already. Also let me say i dont agree with them not allowing Israeli citizens in but to boycott the tournament because of that would be ridicolous.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 02:15 AM
http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

Can you read? What part of "Copyright © 2005 - 2007 Department of Tourism & Commerce Marketing. All rights Reserved" do you not get? Why should I believe the ATP over Dubai Department of Tourism? You have no right to tell me to shut up by the way.

simple sweatheart, becuase no player has been denied yet, doesn't the tournament start in like a week. when it does and a player gets banned then start the complaints until save the tears for people who actually need it:sad: and like I said is anyone here israli and have been denied into the country........ well the solve that issue

kapranos
02-22-2007, 02:38 AM
simple sweatheart, becuase no player has been denied yet, doesn't the tournament start in like a week. when it does and a player gets banned then start the complaints until save the tears for people who actually need it:sad: and like I said is anyone here israli and have been denied into the country........ well the solve that issue

Try to use your brain; Isralis don't enter the tournament because THE COUNTRY DOESN'T ALLOW THEM TO ENTER. When you're not allowed to go somewhere, you don't go, why paying a plane ticket and bothering going?

If you don't care, fine. But to say that because no player has been denied, everything is fine, you must be mentally retarded.

Verd
02-22-2007, 02:54 AM
Yes, but for AA and BJK, the personal was political. With BJK, I was referring to organizing the WTA tour (she was actually outed as a lesbian by an ex-lover and lost endorsements thereafter).

:confused: But that's exactly what I was saying. The problem here is that the political ISN'T personal for any of the top, big-name players, so major change with regards to Dubai probably isn't going to happen.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 05:05 AM
Try to use your brain; Isralis don't enter the tournament because THE COUNTRY DOESN'T ALLOW THEM TO ENTER. When you're not allowed to go somewhere, you don't go, why paying a plane ticket and bothering going?

If you don't care, fine. But to say that because no player has been denied, everything is fine, you must be mentally retarded.

No, but I'm beginning to think I am, because i'm arguing with you. So something must be way off with my mental state right now. But dumb asses like you seem to really annoy the shit out of me, so I guess i'm forced to respond. Show me that report from Israel that says they are banned from entering Dubai specifically Dubai not other Muslim countries. dipshit.... I'm sure because this is getting so much attention either the atp would have surely noticed that, maybe even covered there own ass and not made comments about their players being allowed to enter if in fact they were banned by their own country...and explain this to me smart ass if Israel is the country denying their citizens from entering Dubai how is it Dubai's or the atp's problem.. please continue

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 05:11 AM
If you don't care, fine. But to say that because no player has been denied, everything is fine(:confused:) you must be mentally retarded.

Oh and not to foget.... because no player has been denied everything is fine :rolleyes:.... seeing as how that's what I said and all. I don't want to make a lier out of you, now would I.

soraya
02-22-2007, 05:12 AM
Do I really need to spell it out

100% of israeli citizens are rejected , no ifs or buts as of yet. Most arab/muslim countries don't recognize Israel and want to replace it with a muslim country and yes it's official policy written in paper and repeated in public

So are many "Muslim refugees" who are more deserving becaue of their plight, yet Saudis and most of the UAE reject them. How would you explain that? Why don't we talk about how Arabs are treated in Israel? Let us stop with the double standard here, as someone already mentioned this is not an issue of Israelis denied entry in the UAE, the problem is much deeper and far from been solved by a tennis match.

nobama
02-22-2007, 06:13 AM
The ATP doesn't issue visas. Just because they say any player can enter doesn't mean the country will let the player enter. It is the country that has the last word, and the U.A.E. has no obligation toward the ATP.

It's simple, you may NOT enter the U.A.E. if you have an Israel passport. Which part is not clear??? I don't know if they make exception, even if they do, it's only highly hypothetical. There is no assurance about any future U.A.E. decision.
The tournament director for the small ITF womens event sanctioned in Dubai said there is no ban on any nationality to play in Dubai. If deVillers and the ITF are saying anyone can play it's because they've been assured so by the tournament itself. Does anyone know if an Israeli player has ever tried to enter a Dubai event and been refused?

nobama
02-22-2007, 06:20 AM
An official Dubai government website clearly states that Israelis will be refused entry in this country. That's all the proof that I need.Yeah and gay marrige is not legal in the United States yet the mayor of San Francisco allowed gays to get married in that city anyway. I don't care what the UAE government website says. The tours have been assured that any nationality can enter the Dubai events. Where is the evidence that an Israeli player tried to enter and was refused?

liptea
02-22-2007, 06:52 AM
the economist said that dubai was the most cosmopolitan city in the world.

and my cousin lives there and loves it.

does anyone want to go there with me for springbreak? we can stalk roger!!!!!!!!!!

nisha
02-22-2007, 09:50 AM
why are soo many people attacking dubai and its politics when the americans and britsh are in an illegal war with iraq (thats the common british consensus). why all this double stanadards?? truth is most GOVERNMENTS are screwed and shady. TENNIS cant change that.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 11:39 AM
The tournament director for the small ITF womens event sanctioned in Dubai said there is no ban on any nationality to play in Dubai. If deVillers and the ITF are saying anyone can play it's because they've been assured so by the tournament itself. Does anyone know if an Israeli player has ever tried to enter a Dubai event and been refused?

God. IF DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE ATP AND ITF SAY. THEY DO NOT ISSUE VISAS FOR THE UAE. It does not even matter what the tournament says, they do NOT responsible as well of who gets visa and who doesn't.

The policy of the country is crystal-clear: no Isralis will enter the country. Honestly even if I would write it in bold, size 7 and in red, some people still wouldn't get it, probably because their brains is a chickpea.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 11:42 AM
Show me that report from Israel that says they are banned from entering Dubai specifically Dubai not other Muslim countries. dipshit.... I'm sure because this is getting so much attention either the atp would have surely noticed that, maybe even covered there own ass and not made comments about their players being allowed to enter if in fact they were banned by their own country...and explain this to me smart ass if Israel is the country denying their citizens from entering Dubai how is it Dubai's or the atp's problem.. please continue


:retard:

kapranos
02-22-2007, 11:44 AM
why are soo many people attacking dubai and its politics when the americans and britsh are in an illegal war with iraq (thats the common british consensus). why all this double stanadards?? truth is most GOVERNMENTS are screwed and shady. TENNIS cant change that.

Which players can't enter US and British tournaments :confused:

kapranos
02-22-2007, 11:47 AM
Yeah and gay marrige is not legal in the United States yet the mayor of San Francisco allowed gays to get married in that city anyway. I don't care what the UAE government website says. The tours have been assured that any nationality can enter the Dubai events. Where is the evidence that an Israeli player tried to enter and was refused?

You don't care what the UAE government says? :retard: Look genius, they're the one who pick who enter the country and who doesn't. 'The tours' can say what they want, it's meaningless.

And your gay marriage analogy is embarassingly bad LOL.

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:05 PM
God. IF DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE ATP AND ITF SAY. THEY DO NOT ISSUE VISAS FOR THE UAE. It does not even matter what the tournament says, they do NOT responsible as well of who gets visa and who doesn't.

The policy of the country is crystal-clear: no Isralis will enter the country. Honestly even if I would write it in bold, size 7 and in red, some people still wouldn't get it, probably because their brains is a chickpea.
And you know this for a fact?!? Show me the proof that an Israeli tennis player tried to enter one of the Dubai events and was not allowed to enter the country. You're not offering any proof that this has happened. I don't care what the policy of the UAE is, doesn't mean exceptions can't be made.

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:09 PM
You don't care what the UAE government says? :retard: Look genius, they're the one who pick who enter the country and who doesn't. 'The tours' can say what they want, it's meaningless.

And your gay marriage analogy is embarassingly bad LOL.The tours are saying what they've been told by the tournament organizers. Show me the proof that an Israeli player tried to enter the event and was not allowed to enter the country. As I said just because the official UAE policiy is no national of Israel allowed doesn't mean that policy can't be bent, doesn't mean that the city of Dubai wouldn't make an exception to get a sporting event there.

nobama
02-22-2007, 12:11 PM
why are soo many people attacking dubai and its politics when the americans and britsh are in an illegal war with iraq (thats the common british consensus). why all this double stanadards?? truth is most GOVERNMENTS are screwed and shady. TENNIS cant change that.
It comes up each year when the Dubai tournaments roll around. I'd be curious to know how many will refuse to follow the tournament or watch it on TV. Especially if you get a Fed/Nadal final.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 12:12 PM
And you know this for a fact?!? Show me the proof that an Israeli tennis player tried to enter one of the Dubai events and was not allowed to enter the country. You're not offering any proof that this has happened. I don't care what the policy of the UAE is, doesn't mean exceptions can't be made.

Maybe they can make an exception, if they feel like it, but how do we know they will always make an exception? Why would an Israeli player buy a Dubai plane ticket without knowing if they'll make an exception for him or not?

Would you try to enter dubai, buy a plane ticket knowing you might not enter? Israelis don't try to play because it's too risky to try, they risk losing time and money.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 12:15 PM
The tours are saying what they've been told by the tournament organizers. Show me the proof that an Israeli player tried to enter the event and was not allowed to enter the country. As I said just because the official UAE policiy is no national of Israel allowed doesn't mean that policy can't be bent, doesn't mean that the city of Dubai wouldn't make an exception to get a sporting event there.

And the tournament organizers are not the government... Of course they'll say that Isralis can play! Because they know very well no Isralis will try to play, so they'll never be proven wrong!

That 'maybe' the policy can be bend isn't enough, players don't enter a tournament to 'maybe' be able to enter once they get there.

ezekiel
02-22-2007, 12:16 PM
So are many "Muslim refugees" who are more deserving becaue of their plight, yet Saudis and most of the UAE reject them. How would you explain that? Why don't we talk about how Arabs are treated in Israel? Let us stop with the double standard here, as someone already mentioned this is not an issue of Israelis denied entry in the UAE, the problem is much deeper and far from been solved by a tennis match.

let's not expand this argument which is already wide and very off topic. It stands that israeli players are discriminated in Dubai and Doha

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 12:27 PM
The tours are saying what they've been told by the tournament organizers. Show me the proof that an Israeli player tried to enter the event and was not allowed to enter the country. As I said just because the official UAE policiy is no national of Israel allowed doesn't mean that policy can't be bent, doesn't mean that the city of Dubai wouldn't make an exception to get a sporting event there.

They would bend the rules, someone has to try and challenge it.

It was like when they had apartheid in South Africa. They had a sporting team from the Caribbean that came over to play cricket there and none of these nations had any diplomatic ties with South Africa at the time.

They went there and weren't refused visas and were by the regime considered honorary whites. Whether it was right that they went there was debatable, though like Dubai it comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

zicofirol
02-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Well, politics is a tricky issue. Someone who is not an arab can't judge their way of living. Their laws and habits may seem strange, but they are happy with their societies.

cant judge? so we cant judge the world in 1800's for allowing slavery right? cant judge the nazis? right? who is they? couldnt judge South africa during apartheid,? etc. a government that violates the basic human rights of it's citizens cant possibly have happy socities, please women are oppressed, so is freedom of speech etc. its beyond stupid to say we cant judge, yes we can and we should... even if 90% are happy and 10% are being oppressed it is still an oppressive government...

lol, cant judge, haha...

zicofirol
02-22-2007, 12:33 PM
So are many "Muslim refugees" who are more deserving becaue of their plight, yet Saudis and most of the UAE reject them. How would you explain that? Why don't we talk about how Arabs are treated in Israel? Let us stop with the double standard here, as someone already mentioned this is not an issue of Israelis denied entry in the UAE, the problem is much deeper and far from been solved by a tennis match.

they are treated better than arabs in the arab countries, haha, they have more rights etc. If Israel had the same policy, you would of heard about it long before this topic came...

it wont be solved by a tennis match, but a tennis tournament can certainly stand by its players and say, if you dont let them play, you wont have a tournament...

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 03:20 PM
:retard:

Yeah smart girl ;)

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 03:50 PM
You people are being a little extreme, first we went from reports that maybe some players were going to be banned. Not because players have been banned, but because it's a Muslim country right, and so it would make sense that the players would be banned. Um O.K isn't this like not the first year that this tournaments has been going on. Were players banned last year, were did this paranoia come from. Then we went to, well its a human rights thing, it's just wrong.

"The atp should protest."
"protest what exactly."
"Well, Dubai not letting there players in their country"
"But all our players are allowed in the country."
"Well, it's a Muslim country and they still shouldn't be allowed to treat Israeli that way.'
"What way exactly."
"Well like 2nd class citizens."
"So you want the atp to get involved in a 2,000 year old conflict of religion."
"Well yes. it's the only right thing to do."

Then it went to people(hum won't say names) predicting that Dubai will ban Israeli players from entering their country.

"But wait they haven't yet have they? well how do you know they will."
"Well secret has it, that apparently the posters on mtf are physic."
"Oh I see."

Then it turned to.

"Well it's not Dubai not letting people in there country, it's Israel not allowing their citizens into Dubai."

Then of course it was the conspiracy theory.

"Well, what is the point of preparing to go to Dubai if in fact we will have to jump through hoops and barrels to get to play, just to get rejected.
Well that' just not fair, I'm mean Americans flying to let's say, Africa have to jump through hoops and barrels to get admittance over there, but that not the same thing. Everyone does and only the Israelis have to go through all this crap to get to play in Dubai. So I'm not going."

Then of course it was back to.well you all are idiots because if you can't project into the future to see that Dubai is evil and will eventually ban Israeli players from entering the country, then you are just stupid.

Wow I never knew we had so many future gov't leaders. You know what with all the political analyzing and moaning for Christ sakes, and the fact that you all seem to be sooo knowledgeable about a country you've never been to, it's reminding me of my own wonderful gov't international affairs. In fact I think we should replace all the worlds leaders with the folks who post here on mtf.

I mean really you all remind me why politics is so damn hard for people to get right.

Socket
02-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Guys, guys . . . this is what is going on. There is a government policy to deny visas to Israeli passport holders and those non-Israelis whose passports have Israeli visas. However, it's not in the events' or the tours' financial interest to advertise that fact. So, the ATP and WTA ask the tournament directors if Israeli players can get visas to play. The TDs probably say either "they can play as long as they can get a visa, which is never assured to anyone" or "we can ask for an exception for this sporting event". So, the ATP and WTA can then tell the players that if you want to play, the TDs say that you can. (Nothing, of course, is guaranteed for your coach, trainer, hitting partner, mom, dad, or any friends or fans you travel with.) The tournament avoids the bad PR that would result from widespread publicity that would result if they simply banned Israeli players and the tours' collective asses are covered, so they can continue to hold events there.

I have no doubt that Dubai takes the same approach as Saudi Arabia where Muslim Israelis travel freely to Saudi Arabia, while Jewish Israelis are strictly forbidden. On paper, the Saudi rule is that any holder of a Israeli passport is denied entry, but in practice, it's only the Jewish holders who are denied entry. The Saudis are much less politic about it, though. They simply deny tourist visas to "Jewish people" of whatever nationality.
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny09_weiner/022604Saudi.html

The Sauds deny that that's their practice -- of course -- but I have read that a Jewish editor of the New York Times was asked to put "Christian" as his religion on his visa application to ensure that he would get the visa. When he refused to lie, it took the King's intervention to grant his visa.

http://www.nysun.com/article/48233

zicofirol
02-22-2007, 04:05 PM
good post, yet some feverishly defend Dubai's, blatantly anti-semitic policy...

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:10 PM
good post, yet some feverishly defend Dubai's, blatantly anti-semitic policy...


Nobody is defending Dubai's blatant anti-semitic policy. It just surprises me how naive some people are about the world.

Because you know Dubai is in fact the first middle eastern country to do this, and it hasn't been happening for over 2,000 years

this is about tennis and it's obligations to the sport and players. thanx :wavey:

RonE
02-22-2007, 04:15 PM
this is about tennis and it's obligations to the sport and players. thanx :wavey:

Precisely. And as already has been discussed ad-nauseum the tournament organizers are not fulfilling their obligations to some of those players because it is too much of a hassle and the PR and financial damages would be too great.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Precisely. And as already has been discussed ad-nauseum the tournament organizers are not fulfilling their obligations to some of those players because it is too much of a hassle and the PR and financial damages would be too great.


I think people are speculating on that, which there is nothing wrong with that. I mean 2 plus 2 does equal 4 and very few times does it equate something different, but I'm going with what the atp's says thanx :wavey:

kapranos
02-22-2007, 04:27 PM
I think people are speculating on that, which there is nothing wrong with that. I mean 2 plus 2 does equal 4 and very few times does it equate something different, but I'm going with what the atp's says thanx :wavey:

If you go with what Mr. Disney says rather than common sense, then there is no need to add anything.

I could add for the 2938409238402938429304 times that the ATP aren't the on who issue visas, but that would be a waste of time.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:28 PM
If you go with what Mr. Disney says rather than common sense, then there is no need to add anything.

I could add for the 2938409238402938429304 times that the ATP aren't the on who issue visas, but that would be a waste of time.

Like I said before genius very few times does 2 plus 2 not equate 4 but, If I choose not to go with what information you pull out your ass, then that is just as educated :wavey:

kapranos
02-22-2007, 04:30 PM
Mr. Disney just told me I will see a rainbow if I throw water out of the window. I will go try as everything he says is true.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:33 PM
Mr. Disney just told me I will see a rainbow if I throw water out of the window. I will go try as everything he says is true.


Be smart next time, whistled blow on a issue that deserves a half wits attention.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 04:34 PM
BTW I just bought a plane ticket in China even though I don't have a passport. Maybe they will make an exception for me? I can't wait to try, it's really going to be fun.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:36 PM
BTW I just bought a plane ticket in China even though I don't have a passport. Maybe they will make an exception for me? I can't wait to try, it's really going to be fun.


See there, that's a human rights issue that doesn't have nearly enough half wits backing it. Only like the Beastie Boys and other name-less celebrities, good choice

and if that country is half as smart as I give you credit for, then they will definitely reject you at the gates

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 04:39 PM
I have no doubt that Dubai takes the same approach as Saudi Arabia where Muslim Israelis travel freely to Saudi Arabia, while Jewish Israelis are strictly forbidden. On paper, the Saudi rule is that any holder of a Israeli passport is denied entry, but in practice, it's only the Jewish holders who are denied entry. The Saudis are much less politic about it, though. They simply deny tourist visas to "Jewish people" of whatever nationality.
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny09_weiner/022604Saudi.html


That's precisely what I wrote -- is that 99.9% of the time Israelis' visa applications are denied. But there are some celebrated cases which are supposed to be the exception, one is the guy who made the Paradise Now movie about the two Palestinian kids and their journey to suicide bombing last year. It is made by an Israeli Muslim, Hamy Assaid if I remember correctly (born in Israel). If I am also not mistaken he had a showing of his film in Dubai.

It is a rule in principle, but I suspect that if Joe Lieberman (who supported the Dubai Ports in USA) wanted to go broker that deal, he would get a visa. And I am sure Lieberman has been in and out of Israel.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 04:43 PM
That's precisely what I wrote -- is that 99.9% of the time Israelis' visa applications are denied. But there are some celebrated cases which are supposed to be the exception, one is the guy who made the Paradise Now movie about the two Palestinian kids and their journey to suicide bombing last year. It is made by an Israeli Muslim, Hamy Assaid if I remember correctly (born in Israel). If I am also not mistaken he had a showing of his film in Dubai.

It is a rule in principle, but I suspect that if Joe Lieberman (who supported the Dubai Ports in USA) wanted to go broker that deal, he would get a visa. And I am sure Lieberman has been in and out of Israel.


And what about John Mayer, let's not forget he played there too. O.K he isn't Israeli, and he's only half Jewish but I mean doesn't that say something...:angel:.. I mean come on, give the country some credit :lol:

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 04:55 PM
You're completely missing the point, though. The point is not that the tennis establishments should get involved in world politics, the point is that the tennis establishment should be wary of places where THEIR OWN PLAYERS would not be welcome. Anyone can play a tournament in the US, the UK, China. Anyone CANNOT play in Dubai. I don't care what the ATP says. The fact that Shahar Peer is playing a Tier III tournament instead of Dubai, to me, says it all. As Andy Ram said, he'd love to play Dubai (and I have to agree with Or that I think it would be fantastic if they COULD play in Dubai), but if you have Andy Ram saying that he feels the ATP would really rather him not play in Dubai, then this is a TENNIS problem. It's not a politics problem, it's not a human rights problem, it is a tennis problem. The war in Iraq, China's human rights problems, RUSSIA's human rights problems, etc etc etc etc. They are problems, but nothing tennis need involve itself with. The Dubai issue involves tennis, because players are affected. I hope you can see and appreciate the difference.

And just for good measure, if a Taiwanese player couldn't play in mainland China or something like that, I would feel just as strongly.

This is nothing new, politics in sports has a long and rich tradition. Organizations like the ATP are not political, and while it would be nice if they could ensure parity in participation, I did not see anywhere that they are required to do that (the ATP rulebook is online). Nevertheless, they have obtained permission or so they say, for the Israelis to play in Dubai. That is about as much as they can do without risking the lives of the players at hand. This is an unfortunate situation, and all the ATP can do is weigh out the pros ($$) and cons (PR) and do what makes the most sense. If Federer and Nadal had been Israeli, this would probably have weighed out differently. Despite claims to the contrary, the ATP is not a 'non-profit'.

What would you suggest the ATP do? Their choices are: cancel the tournament or guarantee safety. We know that even heads of states in the Middle East are sometimes not safe, so to think that the ATP has the resources to ensure safety of these players is frankly very simplistic.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 04:56 PM
That's precisely what I wrote -- is that 99.9% of the time Israelis' visa applications are denied. But there are some celebrated cases which are supposed to be the exception, one is the guy who made the Paradise Now movie about the two Palestinian kids and their journey to suicide bombing last year. It is made by an Israeli Muslim, Hamy Assaid if I remember correctly (born in Israel). If I am also not mistaken he had a showing of his film in Dubai.

It is a rule in principle, but I suspect that if Joe Lieberman (who supported the Dubai Ports in USA) wanted to go broker that deal, he would get a visa. And I am sure Lieberman has been in and out of Israel.

If... I suspect... If. If.

Yup, 'if's. No Isralis will bother entering the tournament will all those 'if's.

Socket
02-22-2007, 04:57 PM
That's precisely what I wrote -- is that 99.9% of the time Israelis' visa applications are denied. But there are some celebrated cases which are supposed to be the exception, one is the guy who made the Paradise Now movie about the two Palestinian kids and their journey to suicide bombing last year. It is made by an Israeli Muslim, Hamy Assaid if I remember correctly (born in Israel). If I am also not mistaken he had a showing of his film in Dubai.

It is a rule in principle, but I suspect that if Joe Lieberman (who supported the Dubai Ports in USA) wanted to go broker that deal, he would get a visa. And I am sure Lieberman has been in and out of Israel.

Senator Lieberman would be flying to Dubai on official government business, which is different from you or I or Shahar Pe'er obtaining a work permit or tourism visa. Nonetheless, your point is correct -- that exceptions are made when political convenience so warrants, which provides cover for the underlying rule and allows the rule to stay in place.

Tennis Fool
02-22-2007, 04:59 PM
:confused: But that's exactly what I was saying. The problem here is that the political ISN'T personal for any of the top, big-name players, so major change with regards to Dubai probably isn't going to happen.

I think we are cross-talking. I wasn't really talking about Dubai specifically, just arguing against Mirkaland's point that players shouldn't be involved in politics.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 04:59 PM
What would you suggest the ATP do? Their choices are: cancel the tournament or guarantee safety.

Cancel the tournament. It doesn't even promote tennis to the locals like India, about no locals attend the tournament!

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 05:00 PM
If... I suspect... If. If.

Yup, 'if's. No Isralis will bother entering the tournament will all those 'if's.

Yes, I do not claim to be either the oracle or the visa stamper in UAE consulate. Thus, I cannot guarantee that Joe Lieberman will get the visa. So, I can only say, I suspect.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 05:01 PM
If... I suspect... If. If.

Yup, 'if's. No Isralis will bother entering the tournament will all those 'if's.


Yep and no one cares about your if's, does it hurt

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 05:02 PM
Cancel the tournament. It doesn't even promote tennis to the locals like India, about no locals attend the tournament!

Then they are not taking into account the interests of OTHER players who want to play a good tournament, and can play and who will get $$$$$$$$$$$. And since the ATP is not a political organization, they will not cancel a tournament on political grounds. So, I don't think cancel is a realistic option.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 05:03 PM
Then they are not taking into account the interests of OTHER players who want to play a good tournament, and can play and who will get $$$$$$$$$$$. And since the ATP is not a political organization, they will not cancel a tournament on political grounds. So, I don't think cancel is a realistic option.

No but it's like :banghead: with some of these folks on this board.

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Iis worth pointing out that UAE is not the only one that plays this card. The USA is as culpable. To reverse the picture somewhat, I do not know how many of you are old enough to remember that an army of well trained high class U.S. athletes were denied participating in the USSR 1980 olympics, based on nothing but politics. Could the US Olympic committee (much like the ATP, a NON-POLITICAL organization), representing these players, do anything about it? Short of requesting their athletes to become Canadian, no. :shrug:

What about those US athletes who trained years, whose parents spent thousands, who made HUGE sacrifices? Well, it was just too bad. The politics was MORE important to the government of the US than the lives of a few thousand people.

It is an unfortunate situation, that players are excluded (or may be excluded) on grounds on religion or country. But the ATP has to distance itself from the politics. It is not a political organization. It is just a bad situation, and being a profit-maximizing organization despite claims otherwise, the ATP has made a choice that it seems satisfied with.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 05:22 PM
What about those US athletes who trained years, whose parents spent thousands, who made HUGE sacrifices? Well, it was just too bad. The politics was MORE important to the government of the US than the lives of a few thousand people.

It is an unfortunate situation, that players are excluded (or may be excluded) on grounds on religion or country. But the ATP has to distance itself from the politics. It is not a political organization. It is just a bad situation, and being a profit-maximizing organization despite claims otherwise, the ATP has made a choice that it seems satisfied with.

And so am I, sorry for anyone who isn't, and it's alright to feel strongly about an issue but the issue here is the atp's involvement not whether they should invade Dubai and replace the gov't. and I don't feel they should get involved, that's all.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 05:30 PM
Then they are not taking into account the interests of OTHER players who want to play a good tournament, and can play and who will get $$$$$$$$$$$. And since the ATP is not a political organization, they will not cancel a tournament on political grounds. So, I don't think cancel is a realistic option.

C'mon, we all know the schedule is too heavy, there is constant talk of reducing the schedule. The ATP doesn't need Dubai and in theory it is a completely realistic option to cancel it. They could move an end-of-year indoor tournament at that spot.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 05:34 PM
But the ATP has to distance itself from the politics.

Wouldn't the easiest way to do so would be to hold tournaments where it is sure every player will be able to enter the country without hassle? Then there wouldn't be any need to talk about politics.

Just think if the ATP decide to have a tournament in North Korea, the argument that the ATP and politics are completely independant doesn't hold water.

Socket
02-22-2007, 05:35 PM
Iis worth pointing out that UAE is not the only one that plays this card. The USA is as culpable. To reverse the picture somewhat, I do not know how many of you are old enough to remember that an army of well trained high class U.S. athletes were denied participating in the USSR 1980 olympics, based on nothing but politics. Could the US Olympic committee (much like the ATP, a NON-POLITICAL organization), representing these players, do anything about it? Short of requesting their athletes to become Canadian, no. :shrug:

What about those US athletes who trained years, whose parents spent thousands, who made HUGE sacrifices? Well, it was just too bad. The politics was MORE important to the government of the US than the lives of a few thousand people.

It is an unfortunate situation, that players are excluded (or may be excluded) on grounds on religion or country. But the ATP has to distance itself from the politics. It is not a political organization. It is just a bad situation, and being a profit-maximizing organization despite claims otherwise, the ATP has made a choice that it seems satisfied with.

I am old enough, and I remember that the US Olympic Committee lobbied long and hard against Carter on this and appealed to Democratic senators and congressmen, newspaper editorialists, and major sports associations to persuade him not to call the boycott. They lost, but at least they tried. The boycott was a horrible mistake on Carter's part. Typical of his utter incompetence as president to force innocent bystanders to bear the brunt of his diplomatic failures. The Olympic boycotts were as utterly stupid and counter-productive as the ATP authorizing tournaments in any country where any of its players are either directly banned or when their admission to the country as "exceptions to the rule" simply provide convenient cover to the continued existence of the rule.

cobalt60
02-22-2007, 06:05 PM
I am old enough, and I remember that the US Olympic Committee lobbied long and hard against Carter on this and appealed to Democratic senators and congressmen, newspaper editorialists, and major sports associations to persuade him not to call the boycott. They lost, but at least they tried. The boycott was a horrible mistake on Carter's part. Typical of his utter incompetence as president to force innocent bystanders to bear the brunt of his diplomatic failures. The Olympic boycotts were as utterly stupid and counter-productive as the ATP authorizing tournaments in any country where any of its players are either directly banned or when their admission to the country as "exceptions to the rule" simply provide convenient cover to the continued existence of the rule.

Excellent:yeah:

Tennis Fool
02-22-2007, 06:18 PM
I am old enough, and I remember that the US Olympic Committee lobbied long and hard against Carter on this and appealed to Democratic senators and congressmen, newspaper editorialists, and major sports associations to persuade him not to call the boycott. They lost, but at least they tried. The boycott was a horrible mistake on Carter's part.

Reagen would have done the same thing.

nobama
02-22-2007, 06:31 PM
Cancel the tournament. It doesn't even promote tennis to the locals like India, about no locals attend the tournament!Then why don't you go complain to Federer, Nadal, Mauresmo, Henin, Hingis, ect., all the players that choose to play in Dubai. As long as players choose to participate and enjoy their time there the tours will not cancel this event. I know on the women's side many players have talked about how much they love playing in Dubai. So I guess then in your eyes they're all a bunch of jew hating anit-semites who care more about the almighty $$ then they do about the plight of Israelis?

kapranos
02-22-2007, 07:11 PM
Then why don't you go complain to Federer, Nadal, Mauresmo, Henin, Hingis, ect., all the players that choose to play in Dubai.

Look at my signature, that's exactly what I do.

So I guess then in your eyes they're all a bunch of jew hating anit-semites who care more about the almighty $$ then they do about the plight of Israelis

No.

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 07:14 PM
The Olympic boycotts were as utterly stupid and counter-productive as the ATP authorizing tournaments in any country where any of its players are either directly banned or when their admission to the country as "exceptions to the rule" simply provide convenient cover to the continued existence of the rule.

Yes, they are all stupid but they are based on the political reality. And since the USOC and ATP are apolitical organizations they have to work within the political boundaries created for the players they represent.

The reason I brought up the US led boycott in 1980 is to serve as a reminder that a) whether the reasons are anti-semitic or anti-USSR is irrelevant relative to the fact that these are political decisions made by politicos and NOT SHARED by many people organizing the games or tournaments, and b) that the UAE's position and the ATP's reaction are understandable given that one is in the position to make a political decision and the other is not really.

Socket
02-22-2007, 07:31 PM
Yes, they are all stupid but they are based on the political reality. And since the USOC and ATP are apolitical organizations they have to work within the political boundaries created for the players they represent.

The reason I brought up the US led boycott in 1980 is to serve as a reminder that a) whether the reasons are anti-semitic or anti-USSR is irrelevant relative to the fact that these are political decisions made by politicos and NOT SHARED by many people organizing the games or tournaments, and b) that the UAE's position and the ATP's reaction are understandable given that one is in the position to make a political decision and the other is not really.

Your analogy is not apt because the USOC, unlike the ATP, does not choose where to schedule the Olympics. That decision is entirely out of the USOC's hands. However, the ATP deliberately selected Dubai as a tournement venue. It brought the problem onto itself in a way the USOC did not.

By sanctioning an event in Dubai, the ATP made a statement that it could live with Dubai's policy of denying Jewish Israelis visas, as long the tournament's official position was that they would not be barred from the tournament. I think that the ATP is wrong to do this, and I hope that public pressure can be brought on the ATP to remove this event from its schedule. I would love for the players to be in the forefront on this, but I doubt that will happen. It will left to sportswriters and fans to do so.

Socket
02-22-2007, 07:34 PM
Reagen would have done the same thing.

So says your ouija board. :lol:

Or Levy
02-22-2007, 07:39 PM
Then why don't you go complain to Federer, Nadal, Mauresmo, Henin, Hingis, ect., all the players that choose to play in Dubai. As long as players choose to participate and enjoy their time there the tours will not cancel this event. I know on the women's side many players have talked about how much they love playing in Dubai. So I guess then in your eyes they're all a bunch of jew hating anit-semites who care more about the almighty $$ then they do about the plight of Israelis?


LOL, which top woman is going to fight just to see Shahar, a top 15 player - playing Dubai?

I don't expect the top players to take a stand, I imagine most don't have a clue Israelis aren't allowed to play and frankly - I saw some answers Serena Williams gave the first time she played Shahar two years ago, and I think I can count the things she knows about the middle east with 5 fingers, at best.

Actually, the only one who took a stand regarding anything was Mirza, when she played doubles with Shahar (even though stopped at the end, and who can blame her, she got horrible reactions).

My expectations are from the WTA/ATP - to try harder to encourage Israelis to come, try to encourage the organizers to extand the invitation. I don't, even an attempt would be nice.

If Shahar and A&J come, and it goes well - it can be a really great thing for all parties involved.

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 07:48 PM
Your analogy is not apt because the USOC, unlike the ATP, does not choose where to schedule tournaments. That decision is entirely out of the USOC's hands. However, the ATP deliberately selected Dubai as a tournement venue. It brought the problem onto itself in a way the USOC did not.

By sanctioning an event in Dubai, the ATP made a statement that it could live with Dubai's policy of denying Jewish Israelis visas, as long the tournament's official position was that they would not be barred from the tournament. I think that the ATP is wrong to do this, and I hope that public pressure can be brought on the ATP to remove this event from its schedule. I would love for the players to be in the forefront on this, but I doubt that will happen. It will left to sportswriters and fans to do so.

No, this is related to my point. Which is, that as an APOLITICAL organization and particularly as a quite obviously profit mongering "non profit" organization, the ATP chooses its venues regardless of its political undertones. It is not making a political choice, it is making an economic one. The ATP does not guarantee to its members that participation is guaranteed.

There are many ways in which you can interpret its choosing an event in Dubai: it has chosen an area of the world where there are extremely few tennis tournaments, and no other quality tennis tournament. It has chosen an event which puts on a good tournament. Dubai is not defined by its exclusion of Israelis.

And as for the USOC, it itself did vote to boycott the games. It also voted to the International Olympic committee to MOVE the games from Moscow. If anyone chooses to explain that as succumbing to political pressure, then the ATP should only be accused of succumbing to economic pressure.

These organizations work within the political situation that is created for them. I for one most certainly don't want to see the ATP make any political statements. What if there is a North Korean tennis star who has served in the North Korean army intelligence and cannot get a visa to play in the US? Should the ATP/ITF vote to ban the USO from its schedule?

kapranos
02-22-2007, 08:05 PM
The ATP does not guarantee to its members that participation is guaranteed.

Yeah well the point is that we think they should. Of course they're free to do whatever the fuck they want to do, that doesn't mean we should stop having an opinion.

What if there is a North Korean tennis star who has served in the North Korean army intelligence and cannot get a visa to play in the US?

:eek: What if there is an alien with 4 legs who want to play a US tournaments? :rolleyes:

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 08:11 PM
:eek: What if there is an alien with 4 legs who want to play a US tournaments? :rolleyes:

Yes, your statement is neither a valid counterexample nor humorous , so I will discount it rather than address it directly.

Veronique
02-22-2007, 08:23 PM
I heard from Bud Collins[/B]

In a message dated 2/21/07 10:26:25 AM, Aklaussen writes:


it's a sticky subject. apparently dubai does bar israeli citizens from entering, but has accepted tennis players by just overlooking their nationality. this has been uncomfortable for some israelis who stayed away, but ok with others. personally i feel that the atp and wta should avoid countries with such restrictions -- but you can't imagine them bowing out of such lucrative events.
cheers,
bud

Veronique
02-22-2007, 08:26 PM
My next email to him is: do other players know about this restriction? Would he be willing to start asking them why they won't take a stand and refuse to take part in such an event where some players are unwelcome.

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 08:29 PM
My next email to him is: do other players know about this restriction? Would he be willing to start asking them why they won't take a stand and refuse to take part in such an event where some players are unwelcome.

Hah! This is the one I would like to see response to! :)

But, I know what their answer would be. It would be that the tournament has promised that everyone (as Bud Collins said) would get visas, so the question of "some players are unwelcome" does not arise.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 08:33 PM
Yes, your statement is neither a valid counterexample nor humorous , so I will discount it rather than address it directly.

Well there is probably only 1 tennis court in NK, and it's in Kim Jong Il private house. What are the odds of a tennis player emerging?

Besides Americans are not allowed in NK, so you can't blame Americans for doing the same. (I'm not sure what actually is the position of the US concerning NKans).

kapranos
02-22-2007, 08:39 PM
I heard from Bud Collins[/B]

In a message dated 2/21/07 10:26:25 AM, Aklaussen writes:


it's a sticky subject. apparently dubai does bar israeli citizens from entering, but has accepted tennis players by just overlooking their nationality. this has been uncomfortable for some israelis who stayed away, but ok with others. personally i feel that the atp and wta should avoid countries with such restrictions -- but you can't imagine them bowing out of such lucrative events.
cheers,
bud

Another tennis expert that agree with us. :worship:

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 08:43 PM
Well there is probably only 1 tennis court in NK, and it's in Kim Jong Il private house. What are the odds of a tennis player emerging?

Besides Americans are not allowed in NK, so you can't blame Americans for doing the same. (I'm not sure what actually is the position of the US concerning NKans).



You have missed the point entirely. It is irrelevant to the argument that North Korea has 1 or 1.5 tennis courts or what the odds for a star player to emerge. You cannot guarantee that it could not happen, can you.

If any player from anywhere earns the right to be in a good tournament anywhere, and is denied a visa based on non-criminal reasons does the ATP/ITF step in to ban the tournament from its schedule altogether? This is what the essence of the UAE tournament discussion boils down to, if you remove the emotional sentiments associated with anti-semitism and the Middle east problem.

This is why, it is my opinion that the ATP should steer clear of making any decisions based on the political situation in any part of the world. No one feels good about the position that the government of Dubai is taking, but you have to separate the politics from tennis as best as you can.

Socket
02-22-2007, 08:52 PM
No, this is related to my point. Which is, that as an APOLITICAL organization and particularly as a quite obviously profit mongering "non profit" organization, the ATP chooses its venues regardless of its political undertones. It is not making a political choice, it is making an economic one. The ATP does not guarantee to its members that participation is guaranteed.

There are many ways in which you can interpret its choosing an event in Dubai: it has chosen an area of the world where there are extremely few tennis tournaments, and no other quality tennis tournament. It has chosen an event which puts on a good tournament. Dubai is not defined by its exclusion of Israelis.

And as for the USOC, it itself did vote to boycott the games. It also voted to the International Olympic committee to MOVE the games from Moscow. If anyone chooses to explain that as succumbing to political pressure, then the ATP should only be accused of succumbing to economic pressure.

These organizations work within the political situation that is created for them. I for one most certainly don't want to see the ATP make any political statements. What if there is a North Korean tennis star who has served in the North Korean army intelligence and cannot get a visa to play in the US? Should the ATP/ITF vote to ban the USO from its schedule?

Of course, the ATP had a money motive in selecting Dubai. But it is beyond dispute that its selection of Dubai for economic reasons has political implications, and it has to live with the fallout. (This is no different from Wimbledon living with the fallout of its decision to pay women less money, which it claimed to be based on economic factors (women drawing fewer fans).) That might not be a "political statement" to you, but it's a decision with political implications and fallout!

The defensive tone that the ATP has taken on this very issue when asked by Peter Bodo and Jon Wertheim, and the fact that the tour has gone to the trouble of asking in advance about the exclusion of Jewish Israelis and has a canned answer ready for the press indicates to me that it is acutely aware of the political implications of its decisions.

Whether it likes it or not, the ATP has made an economic choice that definitely has non-economic implications. It's just naive to think that there are not political overtones and consequences for which the ATP has to take responsibility.

The USOC voted for the boycott when told to do so by the US government after failing to persuade Carter otherwise; its chairman had no choice on the matter (well, technically, he could have resigned, but the vice chair would then have cast the vote as directed). But unlike the USOC, the ATP does not represent the athletes from a single nation at a sporting event; it is supposed to represent players of many nationalities, including Israeli players (the closest parallel to the USOC for tennis would be the USTA and other national bodies). And again, unlike the USOC being directed to vote for the boycott by its government, the ATP had a choice, and it choose Dubai. Now, it has to live with the consequences. Before Pe'er and Ram/Ehrlich rose in the rankings, this might not have been an issue for the tours, but now it is. It remains to be seen if pressure will change things in the future, as was the case with pressure on the LTA to pay women the same as men.

As for your point about no player being guaranteed participation in an event, of course that's true, but participation should be based on ranking only, not nationality and religion (and let's not kid ourselves, it is only Jewish Israelis who are issue here, specifically Pe'er and Ram/Ehrlich, who now have the ranking points for the Dubai events). That's like saying that nobody is guaranteed entry into a college to justify not admitting students based on their race or religion, rather than their grades. The nationality and religion of any player should not be a factor in whether they are allowed into a country to play in a sporting event. And yes, that's true for the US as well as Dubai. :) I'm a very strong believer in the power of "ping pong diplomacy".

Edit: it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be if that Israeli/Pakistani doubles team reunited (I've forgotten their names) for the Dubai event! Boy, would that teach the Dubai government a thing or two about peacful co-existence!

kapranos
02-22-2007, 08:59 PM
You have missed the point entirely. It is irrelevant to the argument that North Korea has 1 or 1.5 tennis courts or what the odds for a star player to emerge. You cannot guarantee that it could not happen, can you.

If any player from anywhere earns the right to be in a good tournament anywhere, and is denied a visa based on non-criminal reasons does the ATP/ITF step in to ban the tournament from its schedule altogether? This is what the essence of the UAE tournament discussion boils down to, if you remove the emotional sentiments associated with anti-semitism and the Middle east problem.

This is why, it is my opinion that the ATP should steer clear of making any decisions based on the political situation in any part of the world. No one feels good about the position that the government of Dubai is taking, but you have to separate the politics from tennis as best as you can.

The case with NK is exceptional, it's a weird country isolated from the rest of the world.

I don't blame the US of not welcoming North Koreans, they aren't even generally allowed to leave their own country!!!

One could argue Israel is an exceptional situation too, but certainly not in the same way...

Veronique
02-22-2007, 09:04 PM
Here goes:

Thank you so much for replying to my inquiry, Bud. Would you be willing to find out on the behalf of tennis fans what top players think about this issue? Here's the link to an official site of the Dubai Department of Tourism and Commerce. It states clearly that Isralis need not apply. http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

Why in the world would tennis players want to go play in such a place? I understand prizes and appearance fees are huge, but what about just good old fashion human decency? Does the ATP have another Arthur Ashe out there? I hope so.

Thanks again!

Veronique

R.Federer
02-22-2007, 09:06 PM
Thanks Socket for your comments, many of which I agree with, some not so much. Look, no one feels good about the situation that there are players who, for no fault of theirs, except accident of birth or of immigration, have been excluded. It is parallel to exclusion from a club for being Black. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and there is nobody who is liking it (including I am very sure, the organizers).

If the top 10 players were Israeli, or more realistically if they had all travelled to Israel in the past and so would not have immediate access to Dubai, it is my opinion that the ATP would not support this tournament. Why? Well, because they probably know that their monetary stakes would be small without the stars. Do you think that is a valid statement? If so, then both the scenarios have exclusion of sportspeople based on something to do with Israel, but only one would be cancelled. And that one, would be the one with the smaller bottomline. So, in this counterfactual setup, it is apparent that the ATP is working with little regards to the political setup and more so for the $. (Btw, while it is true that there would be a larger negative publicity impact if the top guys were barred from Dubai, that too would ultimately have to do with the bottomline).

I was going to comment on one more thing, but I must pee right now because I have to attend a seminar right after. I will get back in 1.5 hours and write back then!!!


Of course, the ATP had a money motive in selecting Dubai. But it is beyond dispute that its selection of Dubai for economic reasons has political implications, and it has to live with the fallout. (This is no different from Wimbledon living with the fallout of its decision to pay women less money, which it claimed to be based on economic factors (women drawing fewer fans).) That might not be a "political statement" to you, but it's a decision with political implications and fallout!

The defensive tone that the ATP has taken on this very issue when asked by Peter Bodo and Jon Wertheim, and the fact that the tour has gone to the trouble of asking in advance about the exclusion of Jewish Israelis and has a canned answer ready for the press indicates to me that it is acutely aware of the political implications of its decisions.

Whether it likes it or not, the ATP has made an economic choice that definitely has non-economic implications. It's just naive to think that there are not political overtones and consequences for which the ATP has to take responsibility.

The USOC voted for the boycott when told to do so by the US government after failing to persuade Carter otherwise; its chairman had no choice on the matter (well, technically, he could have resigned, but the vice chair would then have cast the vote as directed). But unlike the USOC, the ATP does not represent the athletes from a single nation at a sporting event; it is supposed to represent players of many nationalities, including Israeli players (the closest parallel to the USOC for tennis would be the USTA and other national bodies). And again, unlike the USOC being directed to vote for the boycott by its government, the ATP had a choice, and it choose Dubai. Now, it has to live with the consequences. Before Pe'er and Ram/Ehrlich rose in the rankings, this might not have been an issue for the tours, but now it is. It remains to be seen if pressure will change things in the future, as was the case with pressure on the LTA to pay women the same as men.

As for your point about no player being guaranteed participation in an event, of course that's true, but participation should be based on ranking only, not nationality and religion (and let's not kid ourselves, it is only Jewish Israelis who are issue here, specifically Pe'er and Ram/Ehrlich, who now have the ranking points for the Dubai events). That's like saying that nobody is guaranteed entry into a college to justify not admitting students based on their race or religion, rather than their grades. The nationality and religion of any player should not be a factor in whether they are allowed into a country to play in a sporting event. And yes, that's true for the US as well as Dubai. :) I'm a very strong believer in the power of "ping pong diplomacy".

Veronique
02-22-2007, 09:07 PM
I'll be emailing Chris Meyers as well. I do want to know what the likes of Federer, Nadal, Roddick think. Is money everything?

dorkino
02-22-2007, 09:09 PM
I see the big point here is that the whole issue is really built on an endless chain of HYPOCRISY:

1- Dubai as a part of the Emirates has firms with working relations to israeli firms and personalities. SO to believe that all israelis are being totally deprived from entering the Dubai paradise is just untrue.

2- That being said, So with official sites of tourism saying israelis may not enter the UAE. The truth is contradicting this "Law" they are apparently/formally putting and not applying. THIS IS HYPOCRISY: IF u dare and really believing in cutting ur relations with someone then cut it even if it 'll hurt ur money. IF u don't dare to make this step, then don't make it and don't make a silly comic play about it, and make a joke of ur selves.

3- Complaining about Dubai cruel people while knowing that this kind of politics is applied directly /indirectly in lots of other places:
North koreans , Cubans and Iranians are suffering from deep troubles to get visas to the US. and we know it. A short while ago, 80 iranian scientists were launched back on their iranian plane back to Iran and prevented from attending a scientific conference in the united states though they got their legal Visas.
Why DOn't we see any one complaining about it here? I believe this HYPOCRISY.

4- Whinning about israelis players being "Prevented" from entering Dubai though it's not that clear ( after all what has been said about sponsors there saying they can play) is just HYPOCRISY:

First because we all know , the political issues running in that region with the occupation and wars. Totally Ignoring this in the discussiong running here is (sorry ) kind of Hilarious HYPOCRISY.

Second : If we want to talk about bad treatment for players why don't we take wider looks? For instance, Israeli authorities regularly prevent Palestinian players from attending international games. A couple years ago , five players were prevented from travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. And before completely preventing them to travel over seas, they were allowed to train in neighbouring countries after hundreds of checkpoints, it took them about 40 hours to return to Gaza for a distance about 100 km.

THIRD: talking about prevention of israeli players from entering a tournament and boycotting Dubai for that ? i want to ask where's all the whinning when the israelis weekly preventing palestinians below 50 years old from praying in one of their holiest mosques ?? Some may see it as israelis rights ? Others definitely see it as another idiot anti humanity movements from occupying forces. WHY Do u give one side a right/ and deprive the other from the same right?

4- With all those announcement about israeli players can play there, but they are afraid to play there because they need people there to offer them extra security??? For GOD's Sake , Why can't people be responsible for what they choose? If they 're keen enough to break the cold war there , Then GO guys and hold ur responsibility. IF THEY 're not ready for this , then don't go but stop crying for this.


We know , THIS World is not running on values. It depends on benefits. This goes on for Dubai as for Israel , as for any place on earth with people knowing something called money.

That's why i see complaining here about the whole issue is HYPOCRISY especially when it comes to those who formerly announced , japanese people and not soldiers deserved to be bombed with atomic bombs in WW.

YES, and sorry for repeating it , but semitism is misunderstood in this thread.

simona21
02-22-2007, 09:22 PM
emmmmmm.....
i just enterd this threat and found many people talking about my country (UAE)..
what's wrong with Dubai tennis championship or even paying many to players to paly..??

and who said UAE is not safe or women treated like slaves.....???
i am living in the same country you all talking about..

soraya
02-22-2007, 09:43 PM
I see the big point here is that the whole issue is really built on an endless chain of HYPOCRISY:

1- Dubai as a part of the Emirates has firms with working relations to israeli firms and personalities. SO to believe that all israelis are being totally deprived from entering the Dubai paradise is just untrue.

2- That being said, So with official sites of tourism saying israelis may not enter the UAE. The truth is contradicting this "Law" they are apparently/formally putting and not applying. THIS IS HYPOCRISY: IF u dare and really believing in cutting ur relations with someone then cut it even if it 'll hurt ur money. IF u don't dare to make this step, then don't make it and don't make a silly comic play about it, and make a joke of ur selves.

3- Complaining about Dubai cruel people while knowing that this kind of politics is applied directly /indirectly in lots of other places:
North koreans , Cubans and Iranians are suffering from deep troubles to get visas to the US. and we know it. A short while ago, 80 iranian scientists were launched back on their iranian plane back to Iran and prevented from attending a scientific conference in the united states though they got their legal Visas.
Why DOn't we see any one complaining about it here? I believe this HYPOCRISY.

4- Whinning about israelis players being "Prevented" from entering Dubai though it's not that clear ( after all what has been said about sponsors there saying they can play) is just HYPOCRISY:

First because we all know , the political issues running in that region with the occupation and wars. Totally Ignoring this in the discussiong running here is (sorry ) kind of Hilarious HYPOCRISY.

Second : If we want to talk about bad treatment for players why don't we take wider looks? For instance, Israeli authorities regularly prevent Palestinian players from attending international games. A couple years ago , five players were prevented from travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. And before completely preventing them to travel over seas, they were allowed to train in neighbouring countries after hundreds of checkpoints, it took them about 40 hours to return to Gaza for a distance about 100 km.

THIRD: talking about prevention of israeli players from entering a tournament and boycotting Dubai for that ? i want to ask where's all the whinning when the israelis weekly preventing palestinians below 50 years old from praying in one of their holiest mosques ?? Some may see it as israelis rights ? Others definitely see it as another idiot anti humanity movements from occupying forces. WHY Do u give one side a right/ and deprive the other from the same right?

4- With all those announcement about israeli players can play there, but they are afraid to play there because they need people there to offer them extra security??? For GOD's Sake , Why can't people be responsible for what they choose? If they 're keen enough to break the cold war there , Then GO guys and hold ur responsibility. IF THEY 're not ready for this , then don't go but stop crying for this.


We know , THIS World is not running on values. It depends on benefits. This goes on for Dubai as for Israel , as for any place on earth with people knowing something called money.

That's why i see complaining here about the whole issue is HYPOCRISY especially when it comes to those who formerly announced , japanese people and not soldiers deserved to be bombed with atomic bombs in WW.

YES, and sorry for repeating it , but semitism is misunderstood in this thread.

Great post.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 10:12 PM
1- Dubai as a part of the Emirates has firms with working relations to israeli firms and personalities. SO to believe that all israelis are being totally deprived from entering the Dubai paradise is just untrue.


Irrelevant. Officially they don't allow people from Israel to enter the country. If they make exceptions sometimes, it does not change the fact that officially they do not allow people from Israel to enter the country.

North koreans , Cubans and Iranians are suffering from deep troubles to get visas to the US. and we know it. A short while ago, 80 iranian scientists were launched back on their iranian plane back to Iran and prevented from attending a scientific conference in the united states though they got their legal Visas.
Why DOn't we see any one complaining about it here? I believe this HYPOCRISY.

So NK, Cubans and Iraniens struggle to enter the US? GOOD! I don't want the axis of evil to enter the US. Nor do I want Cubans coming in the country to not leave back to Cuba. I'm not an hypocrit because the decision has nothing to do with antisemitism or hate; it's friggin' common sense.

Israeli authorities regularly prevent Palestinian players from attending international games. A couple years ago , five players were prevented from travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. And before completely preventing them to travel over seas, they were allowed to train in neighbouring countries after hundreds of checkpoints, it took them about 40 hours to return to Gaza for a distance about 100 km.

I don't recall saying it was right for them to do so.

THIRD: talking about prevention of israeli players from entering a tournament and boycotting Dubai for that ? i want to ask where's all the whinning when the israelis weekly preventing palestinians below 50 years old from praying in one of their holiest mosques ?? Some may see it as israelis rights ? Others definitely see it as another idiot anti humanity movements from occupying forces. WHY Do u give one side a right/ and deprive the other from the same right?

This has nothing to do with tennis. It's a tennis board.

With [/B]all those announcement about israeli players can play there

Announcements are irrelevant, they are made by people who know fully well no Israel player will bother going. So they bullshit us with 'every player is allowed'.

That's why i see complaining here about the whole issue is HYPOCRISY especially when it comes to those who formerly announced , japanese people and not soldiers deserved to be bombed with atomic bombs in WW.

There is no hypocrisy. Only in your head.

dorkino
02-22-2007, 10:33 PM
Kopranos , seeing that political events taking place between the whole region countries for more than 60 years (not even necessarily officially) and israel
is irrelevant to what people are talking about here is- in its most politest description- a complete unawareness of that region and hence the problem.
.
Yet, if u accepted this is irrelevant, then it should be similarily irrelevant for any country to refuse receiving people from other countries having political tensions in between including "Axis of EVIL"???

Why do u think it's common sense and unblamed action for one country and refuse to accept people's right in Dubai or whatever place else to use the same common sense in their own countries???

Frankly, i've expressed my opinion clearly about it concerning all sides. Expecting everyone here to share the same opinion of mine would be the same foolishness as believing Dubai should be boycotted.

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 10:40 PM
I am rapidly started to realize that this whole discussion has nothing to do with tennis. The people on this board have one agenda here and are using another to get that out. So you feel that Dubai banning Jews is wrong, I disagree. I understand why they do it, have you not lived in this world for very long. Look, the fact of the matter is they do better apart, let them be apart. Should the atp get involve, no, and I think it's awful presumptuous to assume that players should have a problem with it. If the atp and some players have problems with it, then fine that's up to them to take issue with it and how. Some one might have an issue with it and not want to boycott. But according to some people here, if the players don't have a problem with it, then they should be torched and if they have a problem with it and don't boycott they should be torched. To say that players should be informed about the current state of Dubai, like it's some one in the atp's responsibility to inform players on world politics is absurd. If you don't know what's going on in your own world it's your problem, not your employers. And if they are going to inform them about the plight of Jews in Dubai are they going to school them about the plight of Palestinians or the rest of the middle east or how about Africans, take your pick. So yes, I am very happy that the atp hasn't giving into pressure to use tennis as a political forum for activist

sondraj06
02-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Kopranos , seeing that political events taking place between the whole region countries more than 60 years (not even necessarily officially) and israel
is irrelevant to what people are talking about here is- in its most politest description- a complete unawareness of that region and hence the problem.
.
Yet, if u accepted this is irrelevant, then it should be similarily irrelevant for any country to refuse receiving people from other countries having political tensions in between including "Axis of EVIL"???

Why do u think it's common sense and unblamed action for one country and refuse to accept people's right in Dubai or whatever place else to use the same common sense in their own countries???

Frankly, i've expressed my opinion clearly about it concerning all sides. Expecting everyone here to share the same opinion of mine would be the same foolishness as believing Dubai should be boycotted.

Yes, I was going to post about that but you just saved me the trouble. If Dubai wants to ban Isralis then they should, people act as though these two peoples haven't been killing each other for centuries now. Shit you all act like if Dubai just let the Jew in, then they can all hold hands and sing kumbiya. Dubai has the right to not admit jews, I'm sure if they did, we would be hearing about fighting and waring all over cnn, like we don't get that enough from the rest of the middle east. Let Dubai be without the conflict of religion.

kapranos
02-22-2007, 11:00 PM
But according to everyone here, if the players don't have a problem with it, then they should be torched and if they have a problem with it and don't boycott they should be torched.

I can't speak for others, but I've never said that. *I* suggest players should boycott Dubai, but if they don't, it's fine.

Or Levy
02-22-2007, 11:37 PM
I see the big point here is that the whole issue is really built on an endless chain of HYPOCRISY:

1- Dubai as a part of the Emirates has firms with working relations to israeli firms and personalities. SO to believe that all israelis are being totally deprived from entering the Dubai paradise is just untrue.

2- That being said, So with official sites of tourism saying israelis may not enter the UAE. The truth is contradicting this "Law" they are apparently/formally putting and not applying. THIS IS HYPOCRISY: IF u dare and really believing in cutting ur relations with someone then cut it even if it 'll hurt ur money. IF u don't dare to make this step, then don't make it and don't make a silly comic play about it, and make a joke of ur selves.

3- Complaining about Dubai cruel people while knowing that this kind of politics is applied directly /indirectly in lots of other places:
North koreans , Cubans and Iranians are suffering from deep troubles to get visas to the US. and we know it. A short while ago, 80 iranian scientists were launched back on their iranian plane back to Iran and prevented from attending a scientific conference in the united states though they got their legal Visas.
Why DOn't we see any one complaining about it here? I believe this HYPOCRISY.

4- Whinning about israelis players being "Prevented" from entering Dubai though it's not that clear ( after all what has been said about sponsors there saying they can play) is just HYPOCRISY:

First because we all know , the political issues running in that region with the occupation and wars. Totally Ignoring this in the discussiong running here is (sorry ) kind of Hilarious HYPOCRISY.

Second : If we want to talk about bad treatment for players why don't we take wider looks? For instance, Israeli authorities regularly prevent Palestinian players from attending international games. A couple years ago , five players were prevented from travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. And before completely preventing them to travel over seas, they were allowed to train in neighbouring countries after hundreds of checkpoints, it took them about 40 hours to return to Gaza for a distance about 100 km.

THIRD: talking about prevention of israeli players from entering a tournament and boycotting Dubai for that ? i want to ask where's all the whinning when the israelis weekly preventing palestinians below 50 years old from praying in one of their holiest mosques ?? Some may see it as israelis rights ? Others definitely see it as another idiot anti humanity movements from occupying forces. WHY Do u give one side a right/ and deprive the other from the same right?

4- With all those announcement about israeli players can play there, but they are afraid to play there because they need people there to offer them extra security??? For GOD's Sake , Why can't people be responsible for what they choose? If they 're keen enough to break the cold war there , Then GO guys and hold ur responsibility. IF THEY 're not ready for this , then don't go but stop crying for this.


We know , THIS World is not running on values. It depends on benefits. This goes on for Dubai as for Israel , as for any place on earth with people knowing something called money.

That's why i see complaining here about the whole issue is HYPOCRISY especially when it comes to those who formerly announced , japanese people and not soldiers deserved to be bombed with atomic bombs in WW.

YES, and sorry for repeating it , but semitism is misunderstood in this thread.

Without addressing each and every one of your points, you are putting things out of context. As long as sucide bombings happens (our army stopped a suicide bomber only yesterday, and the garbage disposal where he hid the bomb was about 10 minutes from my house, BTW..), as long as missiles are thrown on cities in Israel (and it happens weekly and many times daily) - several restrictions on the Palestian population would probably remain in place. Believe me, I don't like it *at all* and I believe in the peace process and I'm perfectly aware innocent population suffers - but by god do I want to see that same population condaming this, and yesterday I was caught in three hours of traffic going home because everyone were searching for that bomb and the terrorist, and found it in my city (which only suffered 2 suicide bombings and I'd like to keep the rates like that, I didn't enjoy the last two very much... all those hysterical phone call to friends and family aren't fun).

So yesterday was a great example for the restrictions. Does it mean we can do better on more than some occasions, more merciful, more humane? Of course, we can always do better. But it's hard to know when the 14 years old in the watch is going to be just a poor boy, and when it's going to a poor 14 years old some Hammas leader placed a bomb on him and told him to kill some Israelis....

As far as "israelis weekly preventing palestinians below 50 years old from praying in one of their holiest mosque" - on this - do not get me started. That's my pet-peeve of the month, even more than this lovely bomb in my city.

There were BAD riots there only last week because we're rebuilding a decades old bridge outside of the mosque cause we're afraid it's going to fall - and they paranoidly claim Israel is going to ruin Al Aktza, build a temple instead and the Muslim world either believe that utter nonsense or even worse, happily joining that potentially lethal bandwagon, just so they'll have something new to fight with Israel about, even though its utter bullshit.

We have 100 muslim refugees from Sudan who ran to Israel because they are beaten up and prosecuted in Egypt for being black (I worked in a refugee legal aid clinic last year). So that's fine, but the Muslims are losing it over a mosque.


In Yemmen, the Jewish population (there is about 25,000 people there) are being prosecuted worse than ever lately, I don't see the Muslim world addressing THAT. They aren't Israelis, they are the citizens of Yemmen.


My point is, that when Israel is putting restrictions upon Palestians, it's based on security, not politics. Is it over-done sometimes - in my opinion it sometimes is, and sometimes not. If Israel went for moral perfection, we'd be nuked years ago.

But the UAE is doing it for politics, there hasn't been any Israelis who flew to Arabic countries or westren countries and decided to explode a mosque. They don't have any security concern (even the biggest Anti-Israel should admit we have valid security concerns) - it's just politics.

dorkino
02-23-2007, 12:02 AM
Orlevy, Guess no one here is expecting to solve the middle east problem, not to say by posting on tennis forums.
Of course u say it's ur right to protect ur selves. ur people suffer it's a truth but Palestinians are and have been suffering too and to be fair enough we should mention it's long long before even Hamas was launched.

They make hand made bombs, make suicide bombing at u or whatever, u missile them with bombs, plans,heavy weapons,burn their trees, use toxic substances against them. U think it's the right way for bringing security. And they are searching for their lost freedom.

It's a vicious circle of violence and to throw it on the plaestinians side alone is like cutting the other half of the photo.

Sudan ,Yemen, (Name any country u want in that region ) have Oppression but Oppression/discrimination is found in Israel too and in between arabs of israeli and it's not faked. Articles, researches are all spread and known.

We can spend days writing on this and it's like going in a vicious circle. Both sides have done terrible things.That's the truth.

Point here, Each side has to responsible for its deeds. U see it's ur right to treat palestinians/ arabs under israeli authority this way what ever ur execuses are . They can use the same right in their own countries. With mentioning neither they nor ur authorities are really applying it as i said before and i see it's double standards.

Last offtopic comment in here from my side.

sondraj06
02-23-2007, 12:08 AM
I feel bad for your and all people of war torn countries. but lets not get into whose to blame. Because the fact of the matter is everyone is to blame, Palestinians, Jew, Israelis,Muslims,Arabs only have themselves to blame for their hatred and problems that come of it. So if Dubai wants to stop that from entering there country for whatever reason that's their right. Just like it's Israel right to do the same. You can't say what other Israelis or Jewish people are or aren't going to do, and you can't know what type of conflict will come of it. If they feel this is the way they want to keep peace in their borders that's their right. Just the same way Israel feels this is the way they choose to keep peace within their borders.

I had to edit that quote, because my response is more general than that. I can see now this is turning into a Israel vs. Arab debate and like I said everyone is to blame for their own actions, nobody else

soraya
02-23-2007, 01:42 AM
Well, I think Ezekiel went far on his last statement. Unfortunately people at MTF cannot have a dialogue without spitting this kind of hatred. I think that moderators should close this thread, thanks.

ezekiel
02-23-2007, 01:59 AM
Well the truth hurts, and I said people are to blame for their own actions and they are. Eveyone is responsible for themselves, and they are. They are repsonsible for own their feelings-hatred and all, and they are repsonsible for the conflict that they insue, nobody else.

That's nice in theory but impractical in practice as the standards of talking and living are different for these people . Saying everyone is at fault only encourages these radicals who have nothing to lose

And please for future reponses don't say things like this- BOLD- and then presist to accuse people of Saying morally repungant things. And it's savage repugnant opinions like that that gives "war mongers moral protection for their aggression" not the truth


At this point, all muslim countries are tribal which frown upon individual freedom which preclude them from developing society let alone a demoncracy. It's not uniquely muslim thing as most of europe was very tribal a few generations ago and couldn't develop because of that so there is hope that muslims can turn a corner.

ezekiel
02-23-2007, 02:14 AM
Well, I think Ezekiel went far on his last statement. Unfortunately people at MTF cannot have a dialogue without spitting this kind of hatred. I think that moderators should close this thread, thanks.

I probably did go far to make a point that saying that all are equally guilty and that they will all will all sit back and reexamine themselves is patently false and will just lead to more bloodshed, hostility and hatred because as far as the mid east all sides do not have same standards and most have nothing to lose thus they'll choose war and any excuse for it

Oh and how ironic for me to be accused of hatred by same people who defend other's right to hatred and me questioning it.
Another ironic point is that the same people say that we should not politicise this and just let them be but they accept that somone else's nationality is politicised and they are barred to participate in a sporting event becasue of it :rolleyes: Realistically they can bar even deserving players for whatever reason but we can also question it

sondraj06
02-23-2007, 03:18 AM
I probably did go far to make a point that saying that all are equally guilty and that they will all will all sit back and reexamine themselves is patently false and will just lead to more bloodshed, hostility and hatred because as far as the mid east all sides do not have same standards and most have nothing to lose thus they'll choose war and any excuse for it

Oh and how ironic for me to be accused of hatred by same people who defend other's right to hatred and me questioning it.
Another ironic point is that the same people say that we should not politicise this and just let them be but they accept that somone else's nationality is politicised and they are barred to participate in a sporting event becasue of it :rolleyes: Realistically they can bar even deserving players for whatever reason but we can also question it

So it's alright for Israel to monitor who they allow in their country but for some double standard reason I'm not aware of it's not for Dubai to do the same. I'm not involving myself in this debate any further, these people have been fighting with each other for far too long and no one here is any more knowledgeable about the issue than any one else who has analyzed it for centuries on end. But it seems to me that some people have the idea that they know how to run a country better than the people whose responsibility it is to run and protect it's own citizens which is quit presumptuous to me. When you have a whole nation to protect and make decisions for then we might be able to resume this argument. Right now I think Dubai is doing what they feel they have to just like Israel. No different and for people who think it is, you don't either understand the complexities that remain between these two peoples, or are blinded by your own prejudice, either way I think it's sad.

sondraj06
02-23-2007, 03:24 AM
That's nice in theory but impractical in practice as the standards of talking and living are different for these people . Saying everyone is at fault only encourages these radicals who have nothing to lose




At this point, all muslim countries are tribal which frown upon individual freedom which preclude them from developing society let alone a demoncracy. It's not uniquely muslim thing as most of europe was very tribal a few generations ago and couldn't develop because of that so there is hope that muslims can turn a corner.

Some ones standard of living is no excuse for behavior. There is nothing impractical about people being responsible for there behavior. So we get that you are more partial to Israel in this conflict, I feel that that is very naive and doesn't add anything to the conflict but more childish finger pointing and name calling. Because these two very different nations haven't done enough of that themselves, they don't need any one else to help in that task.


Maybe you should do a better job of explaining yourself, because your words spew what sounds a lot like hate, not a complex understanding of the way their society and culture works.

And p.s just because your way of life is right for you doesn't mean that it is right. This is starting to sound a lot like colonialism at it's best.

sondraj06
02-23-2007, 03:58 AM
The nobler sort of man emphasizes the good qualities in others, and does not accentuate the bad. The inferior does the reverse. . Confucius (http://quotes.zaadz.com/Confucius)


A nation is a society united by delusions about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbors. William Ralph Inge (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/William_Ralph_Inge/)

"When two cultures collide, it is the only time when true suffering exists", Hermann Hesse (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_Hesse)


The greater the feeling of inferiority….., the more powerful is the urge to conquest….. Alfred Adler (http://quotes.zaadz.com/Alfred_Adler)

The only inequalities that matter begin in the mind. It is not income levels but differences in mental equipment that keep people apart, breed feelings of inferiority. Jacquetta Hawkes (http://quotes.zaadz.com/Jacquetta_Hawkes)


think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance. Reuben Blades (http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Reuben_Blades&action=edit)


"Whoever controls the media-the images-controls the culture.", Allen Ginsberg (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Allen_Ginsberg)


Our first and most pressing problem is how to do away with warfare as a method of solving conflicts between national groups within a society who have different views about how the society is to run. Margaret Mead (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Margaret_Mead/)

alsace
02-23-2007, 04:08 AM
What one has to remember with Ashe and BJK is although they were very political, they were political about matters that were deeply personal to them. Would we have seen ANY male player care as deeply and get involved as deeply as BJK in the formation of the WTA? Same with Navratilova and Mauresmo: they didn't come out of the closet because they wanted to "help gays" or advance the cause of lesbians everywhere, they simply were just being honest about their personal lives.

I'm not trying to sound cynical but for the most part athletes in any sport are not going to be political unless it's related to an issue that touches them personally, and even if they do get political we aren't going to hear about it unless the athlete happens to be a famous top player. Until we have a player in the Top 5 in singles from Israel who starts making a big stink about the discouragement the ATP is giving them re. Dubai, I highly doubt anything will change.

This is almost the last post on the thread that made sense to me. And that's in spite of my sympathy to both the Israeli and Arab points of view that have been expressed here.

It's sad. We all know sports have a political impact. But consciously using sports to make a politically moral point requires a level of ethical education that has been much reduced since the day of BJK and Ashe.

On the one hand, the real educational levels of sports stars have been lowered due to the increased physical demands. Athletes have to become specialized so early that it comes as a shock when someone like Argentina's Juanma del Potro makes an effort to actually finish school. Which of today's top 100 tennis players regularly reads books, or even newspapers?

On the other hand, capital's triumph across the globe has led to a devaluation of ethics in almost every area of life, not just in sport, which is after all an entertainment industry. When Michael Jordan was accosted with Nike's documented use of child labor, he didn't even blink. He just coyly smiled and continued to collect. And Jordan was reasonably well-educated and moral, as sports stars go. It would be naive to expect more from a Federer or a Nadal.

The top five men and women tennis players would probably not boycott Dubai unless their sponsors told them that playing had adverse financial effects. And in that case, stopping play would be like continuing to play, only in reverse. The decisions would still have been made on $$$$, not on moral values.

We've come a long way, baby, since the days of BJK and Ashe.

nobama
02-23-2007, 08:51 AM
Just like the equal pay at Wimbledon once the tournament is over no one will give a shit anymore. Until the tournament rolls around next year when some will be all up in arms again.

Or Levy
02-23-2007, 09:34 AM
I feel bad for your and all people of war torn countries. but lets not get into whose to blame. Because the fact of the matter is everyone is to blame, Palestinians, Jew, Israelis,Muslims,Arabs only have themselves to blame for their hatred and problems that come of it. So if Dubai wants to stop that from entering there country for whatever reason that's their right. Just like it's Israel right to do the same. You can't say what other Israelis or Jewish people are or aren't going to do, and you can't know what type of conflict will come of it. If they feel this is the way they want to keep peace in their borders that's their right. Just the same way Israel feels this is the way they choose to keep peace within their borders.

I had to edit that quote, because my response is more general than that. I can see now this is turning into a Israel vs. Arab debate and like I said everyone is to blame for their own actions, nobody else

Yea, I swore I won't get dragged to that debate, and eventually had. It's a bit hard to keep it about Tennis.