Anger at Masters pullouts justified says Federer [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Anger at Masters pullouts justified says Federer

nobama
11-16-2005, 10:50 AM
Anger at Masters pullouts justified says Federer (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051116/sp_nm/tennis_masters_federer_dc_1)

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - Roger Federer believes that criticism from tournament organizers of a spate of pullouts at the year-ending Masters Cup was fully justified.

The world number one refused to condemn Chinese organizers for calling into question Andre Agassi's reasons for quitting the $4.45 million tournament earlier this week.

"I think criticism is allowed at this point," said Federer after making it two wins out of two in Shanghai on Tuesday.

"They signed a three-year deal. I understand the big disappointment from the government, from the tournament, from the fans."

Agassi pulled out on Monday citing an ankle injury after hobbling to a 6-4 6-2 defeat by Russia's Nikolay Davydenko in his first match.

The American's withdrawal came after Spain's French Open champion Rafael Nadal pulled out through injury. Andy Roddick, Marat Safin and Lleyton Hewitt were all Shanghai no-shows.

Organizers were scornful of Agassi's decision to withdraw even though the eight-times grand slam winner arrived in China with an ankle injury.

But Federer sought to heal any potential rift by praising Agassi for trying to play on his sore ankle.

"I don't know how bad it really was...but I think it's still great that he shows up and tried," said Federer. "Maybe the other guys could have tried too.

"I don't know. I don't think so because they know their bodies."

Federer himself was on crutches just three weeks ago after hurting his ankle in practice but has beaten David Nalbandian and Ivan Ljubicic to close in on a third straight Masters Cup title.

"I came here not knowing if I could play and I went through the therapy just to really show the people how much this event really means to me," said the Wimbledon and U.S. Open champion.

"Sort of arrived basically on one leg. Now that I can play it's fantastic. It should also show a message how important this tournament is to tennis. For me this equals a grand slam."

amierin
11-16-2005, 11:36 AM
I was raised that it's not what you do it's how you do it. This is why Andre's butt is in a sling and why Federer can't say anything other than what he did.
I'm sure the Andre defenders will come out of the woodwork now.

Federerthebest
11-16-2005, 11:38 AM
Well said Fedgod

Galaxystorm
11-16-2005, 11:43 AM
The American's withdrawal came after Spain's French Open champion Rafael Nadal pulled out through injury. Andy Roddick, Marat Safin and Lleyton Hewitt were all Shanghai no-shows.

Organizers were scornful of Agassi's decision to withdraw even though the eight-times grand slam winner arrived in China with an ankle injury.

But Federer sought to heal any potential rift by praising Agassi for trying to play on his sore ankle.

"I don't know how bad it really was...but I think it's still great that he shows up and tried," said Federer. "Maybe the other guys could have tried too.

"I don't know. I don't think so because they know their bodies."

I always admire Roger for being a real gentleman , but i think that when he says a comment like this : " "Maybe the other guys could have tried too. " i think it's a little lack of respect towards the players that have withdrawn before playing the first match because he isn't inside the body of those players, and he doesn't know how bad are the injuries, and which is the risk for these players to play and to get worse their injuries

Federerthebest
11-16-2005, 11:45 AM
I always admire Roger for being a real gentleman , but i think that when he says a comment like this : " "Maybe the other guys could have tried too. " i think it's a lack of respect towards the players that have withdraw before playing the first match because he isn't inside the body of those players, and he doesn't know how bad are the injuries, and which is the risk for these players to play and to get worse their injuries

Perhaps you missed the next sentence in which he clearly recognised that it may not have been possible because they 'know their bodies' :wavey:

Galaxystorm
11-16-2005, 11:47 AM
Perhaps you missed the next sentence in which he clearly recognised that it may not have been possible because they 'know their bodies' :wavey:

I haven't missed the next sentence since i've quoted it . Existing the last sentence or not, i think he shouldn't give advices when we are talking about a thing as personal/private as an injruy

I think if Roger had withdrawn of the TMC because of his ankle injury he had taken badly ( anger ) that another player told him in a press conference what he has to do or not

Federerthebest
11-16-2005, 11:50 AM
Then how is it arrogant? :confused: He says they may have tried but then recognises this may have been impossible due to their injuries :confused:

alfonsojose
11-16-2005, 11:51 AM
The players are treated almost like kings. That's ridiculous :ras:

Jim Jones
11-16-2005, 11:53 AM
Well the tournament directors don't care about the injuries to the player, all they care about is profits

Galaxystorm
11-16-2005, 11:56 AM
Then how is it arrogant? :confused: He says they may have tried but then recognises this may have been impossible due to their injuries :confused:

I'm not telling he has been arrogant, i admire Roger a lot, and this sentence won't make me change my mind about him at all , He's a very nice guy, he's an example of how a nº1 must behave . I'm only saying that i think this sentence/advice wasn't necessary since it can be considered as a meddling and a lack of respect .

Scotso
11-16-2005, 12:00 PM
I don't think those comments were necessary at all... Federer doesn't know how these players feel, so he shouldn't comment on it.

DrJules
11-16-2005, 12:06 PM
Thread title is a journalist style interpretation of what was said. The interview is far more balanced. Need to read interview carefully.

DhammaTiger
11-16-2005, 12:12 PM
mirkaland, thanks for posting Roger's comments. IMO, Roger has been very candid about his feelings, but at the same time he was very diplomatic.Exactly something very indicative of his character. :hatoff: He comes out very genuine, and is charming. Before he was shy but now he has learned to handle the media. I don't believe he has any arrogance at all in him on the court or off.

Winston's Human
11-16-2005, 12:13 PM
Maybe the other guys could have tried too.


This statement is particularly arrogant toward the circumstances of Hewitt's withdrawal. I guess that, since Federer is not a father, he cannot understand Hewitt's choice to be with his wife as she approaches their child's birth.

As for Safin and Roddick, given their advantages on carpet, I think to suggest that somehow either was faking or exaggerating their injuries is off-base. If the surface was grass (for Safin) or clay (for Roddick), then the suggestion might have some basis.

Furthermore, Safin has been injured all fall and Roddick was injured at a Master's tournament which Federer was too injured to play.

1sun
11-16-2005, 12:17 PM
I always admire Roger for being a real gentleman , but i think that when he says a comment like this : " "Maybe the other guys could have tried too. " i think it's a little lack of respect towards the players that have withdrawn before playing the first match because he isn't inside the body of those players, and he doesn't know how bad are the injuries, and which is the risk for these players to play and to get worse their injuries
lol. boy you do try hard

Galaxystorm
11-16-2005, 12:21 PM
lol. boy you do try hard

If you don't like what i write, don't read it , it's so easy :shrug: :wavey:

1sun
11-16-2005, 12:25 PM
If you don't like what i write, don't read it , it's so easy :shrug: :wavey:
point number 1) did i say i didnt like it?
point number 2) if that was the case, dou you actualy think there would be a board?
point number 3) blah blah blah blah.....................BLAH :wavey:

R.Federer
11-16-2005, 12:46 PM
China crisis
The Masters Cup is a great concept - an end-of-season showdown where the best eight players in the world fight it out.

But if only one member of the top six is fit and five replacements are required, as has happened at this year's event, then what's the point?

Marat Safin, Lleyton Hewitt and Andy Roddick all qualified only to withdraw in advance, Andre Agassi played one match and departed, and Rafael Nadal didn't even manage to make it onto the court.

Roger Federer still isn't 100% fit, but at least he's still standing, and thank goodness for that because he's the only star left.


In the last 24 hours alone the organisers have twice felt the need to come out and publicly apologise to the spectators.

You can view this in two ways.

Shanghai has signed up to host the Masters Cup for the next three years. The organisers have spent millions of pounds on the organisation and they've built this extraordinary stadium which has been described by Federer as the best venue around.

So, having put all this effort in, they wanted to be rewarded with a good tournament. And they clearly haven't been.

The organisers feel sorry for the fans and so do I.

There is a desire to raise the profile of tennis here but it's difficult to sell the likes of Mariano Puerta, Fernando Gonzalez and Gaston Gaudio to a nation which isn't overly-familiar with the sport.

On the other hand, the organisers have offered a discount to ticket-holders here for next year's tournament as compensation and, in my opinion, that was a step too far and rather insulting to the players who have turned up.

The whole of the sport needs to get together round the table, put personal issues to one side and say what can we do to do change this sport for the good of everyone

I also think the criticism of Agassi, after he pulled out with an ankle injury, was a bit of a shame. He did not come here, collect his cheque and then leave in the space of 24 hours.

He turned up a week before the tournament, got as fit as possible, managed to struggle through his match against Nikolay Davydenko and had to pull out.

The simple fact is you cannot force unfit players to play.

What's happening in Shanghai also happened at last month's Paris Masters, which is one of the best-supported events on the circuit.

But because Paris comes so late in the year it was also deprived of many of the best players because of injury.

The main problem is there is too much reliance on personal interest in the sport. For example, every tournament wants theirs to be the best and to have the top players competing.

There is nothing wrong with that.

But if the players are being enticed to tournaments on a weekly basis, often continent-to-continent, surface-to-surface, then burnout is inevitable.

Another problem that in my mind is at the root of increasing injury among players, is that tennis has become too slow.

Courts are slower (Ivan Ljubicic described this one here in Shanghai as "The French Open indoors") and the balls have become heavier to encourage longer rallies and more exciting tennis for the fans.

But what that means is that players are running around the court more, the balls are being struck harder because of racquet technology and - in basic terms - it is more of a strain to return the ball than it ever used to be.


If there was more pace to the courts then perhaps more players would be encouraged to play at the net, shortening rallies and the pressure on bodies would be less intense. But this has to be debated at a higher level.

All of the competing interests in the sport need to get round the table, put personal issues to one side and say what can be done to change tennis for the good of everyone.

The authorities should take this as a wake-up call to say 'what are we going to do for the common good of this sport?'

For all the talk of player burnout, it might just be bad luck that all these injuries coincided with the start of the tournament.

It might have been coincidence in Shanghai, but these issues need to be addressed at the highest level to avoid the risk of it happening again next year.


Story from BBC SPORT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport2/hi/tennis/4442276.stm

nobama
11-16-2005, 01:04 PM
This statement is particularly arrogant toward the circumstances of Hewitt's withdrawal. I guess that, since Federer is not a father, he cannot understand Hewitt's choice to be with his wife as she approaches their child's birth.

As for Safin and Roddick, given their advantages on carpet, I think to suggest that somehow either was faking or exaggerating their injuries is off-base. If the surface was grass (for Safin) or clay (for Roddick), then the suggestion might have some basis.

Furthermore, Safin has been injured all fall and Roddick was injured at a Master's tournament which Federer was too injured to play.I guess people just missed this statement? "I don't know. I don't think so because they know their bodies."

I don't think he was referring to Hewitt but rather injured players with those comments. And perhaps he was just wondering out loud had, say, Andy Roddick come straight to Shanghai and try to get fit he might have been able to play? But also acknowledging that he doesn't know. I certainly don't think he was trying to insinuate Roddick or Nadal or anyone else is faking injury.

alfonsojose
11-16-2005, 01:06 PM
mirkaland, you should change your name to mirkasphere. It's more appropiate these days ;)

star
11-16-2005, 01:18 PM
I think Federer is exagerating his injury. He wasn't on one leg or obviously he wouldn't be playing and running freely as he was. I understand his point, but I think his implicit criticism of other players is unjustified. He's holding himself up as some paragon, but his entire goal at the end of the year was to appear in Shanghai, a city he strongly supported to be the host of the Masters Cup.

He's got his priorities, but others have different priorities. I'm sure he wouldn't be thrilled to have his non-support of Davis Cup sneered at by other players either.

To me he talks out of both sides of his mouth in this interview. He says the anger is justified and that HE came on only one leg and is playing and implies that others should have done the same and then turns around and says oh well, I don't know their bodies.... blah blah blah.

RogiFan88
11-16-2005, 01:20 PM
Better if these players said nada.

ToanNguyen
11-16-2005, 01:20 PM
I haven't missed the next sentence since i've quoted it . Existing the last sentence or not, i think he shouldn't give advices when we are talking about a thing as personal/private as an injruy

I think if Roger had withdrawn of the TMC because of his ankle injury he had taken badly ( anger ) that another player told him in a press conference what he has to do or not
I don't think Roger is giving advice. People ask him for his opinion and he gave them. What is wrong with that? I think he answer it perfectly. He gave the media his view on the whole thing but then emphasize that it's only his opinion as an outsider and he doens't know everyone's body condition. That is why I admire Roger so much. He is honest with himself, have a backbone to form a view on a certain subject and fully realize that it's only his own opinion.

El Legenda
11-16-2005, 01:25 PM
Ljubo and Roger speaking the truth. :yeah:

RogiFan88
11-16-2005, 01:28 PM
and you know how people hate the hear the truth

Margy
11-16-2005, 01:33 PM
Anger at Masters pullouts justified says Federer (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051116/sp_nm/tennis_masters_federer_dc_1)

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - Roger Federer believes that criticism from tournament organizers of a spate of pullouts at the year-ending Masters Cup was fully justified.

Agassi pulled out on Monday citing an ankle injury after hobbling to a 6-4 6-2 defeat by Russia's Nikolay Davydenko in his first match.

The American's withdrawal came after Spain's French Open champion Rafael Nadal pulled out through injury. Andy Roddick, Marat Safin and Lleyton Hewitt were all Shanghai no-shows.
You know, I'm getting really angry at seeing Marat's named lumped in with the "no-shows" in this article and others when the criticisms are flying around. He was NOT a no-show. The guy's been injured for half the year. It is certainly legitimate. Yet he came to Shanghaii to do whatever they wanted for the promotional aspect. But that hasn't been recognised in any of these let's blame somebody articles. Come on and give the guy some credit people! He has done his part.

wcr
11-16-2005, 01:46 PM
You know, I'm getting really angry at seeing Marat's named lumped in with the "no-shows" in this article and others when the criticisms are flying around. He was NOT a no-show. The guy's been injured for half the year. It is certainly legitimate. Yet he came to Shanghaii to do whatever they wanted for the promotional aspect. But that hasn't been recognised in any of these let's blame somebody articles. Come on and give the guy some credit people! He has done his part.

OK! Go Marat! Fix that damn knee and start playing again.

wcr
11-16-2005, 01:49 PM
China crisis
Courts are slower (Ivan Ljubicic described this one here in Shanghai as "The French Open indoors") and the balls have become heavier to encourage longer rallies and more exciting tennis for the fans.

Story from BBC SPORT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport2/hi/tennis/4442276.stm

And here I thought everyone was complaining how fast the courts were - like Bercy - like ice!

Clara Bow
11-16-2005, 02:05 PM
I think the BBC article is missing what seems to be the main problem with the Shanghai courts- not the speed so much as the fact that it is "sticky" - even Ivan said it was so. If your foot is stopped immediately on a surface such as it is in Shanghai- but the rest of your body continues with movement- that can be horrid for your body.

And it seems like no one can agree on the speed of the court. But I have to say that I don't think that it the court speed/movement is akin to the French Open from what I have seen. Just as I think Rafa may have used a little hyperbole in describing the court speed- I think that Ivan is doing so as well on the other end.

R.Federer
11-16-2005, 02:10 PM
You know, I'm getting really angry at seeing Marat's named lumped in with the "no-shows" in this article and others when the criticisms are flying around. He was NOT a no-show. The guy's been injured for half the year. It is certainly legitimate. Yet he came to Shanghaii to do whatever they wanted for the promotional aspect. But that hasn't been recognised in any of these let's blame somebody articles. Come on and give the guy some credit people! He has done his part.
I think the media's criticism has not gone to marat's side
Everyone was sad, but not angry, that marat could not come. And the fact that he took time to come to Shanghai is also a plus on their side.

They add on his name, to beef their story up. Even they will say hewit cannot come blah blah... "understandably".

The real angryness is at andre and at nadal, because they come to Shanghai, were around for the pre-Tournamente good fun, and then leave :shrug:

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 02:14 PM
The real angryness is at andre and at nadal, because they come to Shanghai, were around for the pre-Tournamente good fun, and then leave :shrug:
I don't agree with your assesment but even if it's the case than it's still :bs:

Unless you know for sure the nature of Andre's and Nadal's injury...shut up about it. It's too damn easy to criticize from a distance. :(

etiage
11-16-2005, 02:24 PM
I don't agree with your assesment but even if it's the case than it's still :bs:

Unless you know for sure the nature of Andre's and Nadal's injury...shut up about it. It's too damn easy to criticize from a distance. :(


i don't think poster him/herself is angry with nadal and andre, but that negative feelings from shanghai are directed at the two for pulling out so late

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 02:34 PM
i don't think poster him/herself is angry with nadal and andre, but that negative feelings from shanghai are directed at the two for pulling out so late
I can understand their disappointment but I have not seen any angry reaction towards Nadal. On the contrary, they were impressed with the way he dealt with it. There's not much more he could have done about it IMO.

I think that both Nadal and Agassi were in a loss-loss situation.
Should they have stayed home? They would be criticized for not coming because Federer has come on one leg so why can't they at least try to play?
Should they have come to Shanghai anyway and do the very best to play (like I believe both these guys were doing) than they get criticized anyway when it's clear that they are not fit enough so they should have given the opportunity to another player.
:confused:
Are they only looking for an easy target to blame this mess on or are they willing to sit down and think about the situation properly?

R.Federer
11-16-2005, 02:51 PM
I don't agree with your assesment but even if it's the case than it's still :bs:

Unless you know for sure the nature of Andre's and Nadal's injury...shut up about it. It's too damn easy to criticize from a distance. :(
Sorry?
I am saying that the media/organizer anger is directed towards nadal and andre, not towards andi, leyton or marat. This is the case no matter where you read. I dont see why i should shut up? It is not like i am media/organizer and this is my view

R.Federer
11-16-2005, 02:52 PM
i don't think poster him/herself is angry with nadal and andre, but that negative feelings from shanghai are directed at the two for pulling out so late
Merci, Etiage. You understood perfect, the other poster in hurry to criticize may not read my post correctly

FrogBurger
11-16-2005, 02:56 PM
What a diplomat, nice words Roger

R.Federer
11-16-2005, 02:58 PM
What a diplomat, nice words Roger
I get an extra Frog Burger at your bbq :)

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 03:08 PM
Sorry?
I am saying that the media/organizer anger is directed towards nadal and andre, not towards andi, leyton or marat. This is the case no matter where you read. I dont see why i should shut up? It is not like i am media/organizer and this is my view
It's your opinion...fine but it's still doesn't have to be true and it's still pointless to just point to Agassi and to Nadal instead of seriously looking into the problem of the injuries. Is it just a coincidence or not?

Besides, what's the relevance of this sentence of yours: "this is the case no matter where you read"? Nope, that's just your view and your interpretation. You have a right to give your view and I have a right to say it's :bs:
:)


A couple of quotes from the media/organizer:
In contrast to Agassi, the 19-year-old Nadal, qualifying for his first TMC, made several gestures that delighted the committee. Nadal went to the medical center to apologize and say hello to the media.
...
ATP spokesman David Higdon: "Obviously we're pleased with Rafael's decision to be around for three hours today to meet with fans, sponsors, media and broadcasters."
...
Asked about Agassi, Higdon said the American has been exemplary as an ambassador for his sport.
Source: msn.foxsports.com

Furthermore, the media was impressed with the way Nadal handled the situation. A journalist from the States even bothered to log on on his site to congratulate Rafael Nadal for his class.

So, it's your opinion that they're angry at Nadal and Agassi but I don't see it.
Disappointed? Sure but angry? No.

Bubba08
11-16-2005, 03:12 PM
:yeah: :angel:

Margy
11-16-2005, 03:12 PM
I think if Agassi and Nadal hadn't taken their money and run home, the hard feelings would be greatly reduced. I mean, they were paid a boatload of moola and were housed and wined and dined along with their entourages (which in Nadal's case was huge) for days leading up to the tournament. So, Okay they're injured now and can't play. But what is preventing them from going to the courts each day and staging a photo session? All the dissappointed fans who won't get to see them play, can instead get a picture taken with the star, then watch the alternates play. I bet most fans would have been perfectly content if not thrilled with that opportunity. Face it, those guys are rarely accessible for fan photos as they usually are surrounded by bodyguards. So let them plop their injured selves in a couple of chairs and smile for some photos. It would have shown that they had some respect for all that went into planning the event and for the fans who paid money to see them.

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 03:15 PM
So, Okay they're injured now and can't play. But what is preventing them from going to the courts each day and staging a photo session? All the dissappointed fans who won't get to see them play, can instead get a picture taken with the star, then watch the alternates play.
The funny thing is, that's just what Nadal did but hey, it's more fun to just accuse people of something without getting your facts straight, right?

Margy
11-16-2005, 03:16 PM
And yes Nadal did do a media session before he left but that did nothing for the fans with tickets for the rest of the week. And Agassi made no such effort at all as far as I am aware.

Margy
11-16-2005, 03:17 PM
The funny thing is, that's just what Nadal did but hey, it's more fun to just accuse people of something without getting your facts straight, right?
If he is still there doing these sessions, I aplologize. I haven't seen that that is the case. :shrug:

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 03:18 PM
And yes Nadal did do a media session before he left but that did nothing for the fans with tickets for the rest of the week.
:rolleyes:
He did much more than what he was supposed to do and the media and the organizer realize that all too well.
You can always come up with more more thing he could do to just find fault with him.

Margy
11-16-2005, 03:25 PM
:rolleyes:
He did much more than what he was supposed to do and the media and the organizer realize that all too well.
My point is this. He had planned to be there for the week. He finds he cannot play because he is injured. He likes his fans. His fans love him. Why can't he just stay for the week as he planned and make himself available for those fans who came to see him? Is that so much to ask? Why does he actually have to leave? I didn't see anything telling me he had to head home for emergency surgery or anything like that. If both he and Agassi had stayed for the duration of the event and been a visible presence for the fans, it would have been much better. I think they were paid enough to justify that expectation as long as they were physically capable of remaining.

kiro
11-16-2005, 03:30 PM
The press is always doing such a bad job. They make too much out of a simple word. And they are always trying to mess everything up.

I'd like to clarify some facts.

Nadal and Safin cooperated well with the organizers to do promotions and charity things. The organizers do regret the absence or withdrawal of top players like Hewitt, Safin, Roddick and Nadal. They are disappointed, but this is totally different from "angry".

They're angry upon Agassi, no one else. In the press conference, Mr. Wang said he was personnally not satisfied with what Agassi has done: Quit the tournament without permission or even notifying anyone, and just went to the media to say it. I do belive that the organizers have more reasons to be angry upon Andre Agassi.

And Fed's comment that "criticizes are allowed to this point", was also about the withdraw of Agassi, when he was asked about it. Nothing to do with others.

The organizers have their complains, obviously, that the long season and tight schedule made the top players too tired and hurt. Mr. Wang also said that this is a problem which should be dealt by ATP.

Castafiore
11-16-2005, 03:34 PM
Come on, Margy.

Give the guy a break. He has gone through a lot of trouble to apologize to fans (on court), the organizer and to the media (he apologized to them in person). His fans had ample opportunity to meet him at a special event. He did not have to do it but he did it anyway.
http://tinypic.com/fth9c4.jpg
http://tinypic.com/fth9mt.jpg
http://tinypic.com/fth91i.jpg

He now needs to go back to Spain for further tests to evaluate the healing process.

Margy
11-16-2005, 03:41 PM
And to clarify, I'm not looking for things to complain about or to necessarily "blame" Nadal. I like Nadal. I'm not a Nadal hater. I recognize that he tried to do something, and is only 19 years old. :angel:
However, I think the problem is the system allows this type of easy out. It should be part of their contract that they will stay and do some fan friendly activities if they are pysically capable, even if they are unable to compete. Instead, it seems they can do whatever they want and the event organisers have no authority to require anything of them. If the players accept the big checks for showing up, there should be minimum responsibilities that go along with that. Staying for the whole event should be the least of those responsibilies.

kiro
11-16-2005, 03:50 PM
And to clarify, I'm not looking for things to complain about or to necessarily "blame" Nadal. I like Nadal. I'm not a Nadal hater. I recognize that he tried to do something, and is only 19 years old. :angel:
However, I think the problem is the system allows this type of easy out. It should be part of their contract that they will stay and do some fan friendly activities if they are pysically capable, even if they are unable to compete. Instead, it seems they can do whatever they want and the event organisers have no authority to require anything of them. If the players accept the big checks for showing up, there should be minimum responsibilities that go along with that. Staying for the whole event should be the least of those responsibilies.

I think we have rules, if a player's injured, he should follow some procedures if he wants to quit, like seeing the tournament doctors, notifying the ATP, etc. But Agassi just didn't obey the rules . There is a system, obviously, but Agassi was acting like the system or the rules are nothing at all.
If somebone said that "OK, we allow this type of easy out, Agassi should be exempted", it won't be the Chinese organizers.
And if someone really said this, so that the Chinese organizers are not able to require anything from Agassi, then the organizers must have even more reasons to be angry.

Margy
11-16-2005, 04:04 PM
I think we have rules, if a player's injured, he should follow some procedures if he wants to quit, like seeing the tournament doctors, notifying the ATP, etc. But Agassi just didn't obey the rules . There is a system, obviously, but Agassi was acting like the system or the rules are nothing at all.
If somebone said that "OK, we allow this type of easy out, Agassi should be exempted", it won't be the Chinese organizers.
And if someone really said this, so that the Chinese organizers are not able to require anything from Agassi, then the organizers must have even more reasons to be angry.
Yes, I read in one of these threads, I forget which, that Agassi wouldn't even stay in the event hotel. Instead, he showed up and made them put him up somewhere else after the hotel went to all that trouble with the names embroidered on everything, etc. That should not have been an option for him IMO. Someone there should have the authority to say "NO! This is where the players stay!" After he pulled out, he should have been told "Okay, so instead of playing on Wednesday, we will set up a photo spot for you and you will do a session there." However, it appears, players just call all the shots. That is what I'm saying is wrong.

ExpectedWinner
11-16-2005, 04:07 PM
My point is this. He had planned to be there for the week. He finds he cannot play because he is injured. He likes his fans. His fans love him. Why can't he just stay for the week as he planned and make himself available for those fans who came to see him? Is that so much to ask?



:haha:

Players are not pandas in a zoo available for exhibition from 8 to 5 Mon-Sun.

It shouldn't be their obligation to please these retards who make idols out of total strangers (see an excelent Noah interview posted by GWH a few weeks ago). I assume most people are interested in tennis, not in a stupid autograph.

Tennis Fool
11-16-2005, 04:14 PM
Why can't he just stay for the week as he planned and make himself available for those fans who came to see him? Is that so much to ask?
That's why Marat's there :cool:

kiro
11-16-2005, 04:15 PM
That's why Marat's there :cool:

And that's why fans still love Marat. ;)

Margy
11-16-2005, 04:19 PM
:haha:

Players are not pandas in a zoo available for exhibition from 8 to 5 Mon-Sun.


:haha: Thank you for that visual. I am picturing certain players sitting in a cage doing intersting things to keep themselves occupied...like the chimps at the zoo (I haven't had the chance to see pandas)

But I sort of disagree with you. Athletes are entertainers. People pay to see them and getting a photo op with one would make most fans very happy. I don't compare posing with fans to sitting in a zoo. Some players like the Bryan twins go out of their way to spend time with fans and really seem to enjoy it. It should not have negative connotations like you give it. Though I am still laughing at that image you proposed. :lol:

amierin
11-16-2005, 04:20 PM
I didn't know about Marat but Nadal stayed and did a lot of photo ops and sponsor appearances. If you saw his announcement to the fans in the stadium you could see he deeply regretted not being able to play. It took three medical opinions for him to agree not to take to the court. If you check Rafael's player forum on this site you will see the pics of what he's been up to.
The tournament director did not mention Nadal in his rant. Federer did not imply Nadal in his comments. All of the anger is directed towards Agassi, as in this case it should be.

The American press will downplay Agassi's behavior if they mention it at all due to ATP/USTA pressure.

Margy
11-16-2005, 04:21 PM
And that's why fans still love Marat. ;)
Absolutely, we do :hearts:
Why can't the others get it?

jtipson
11-16-2005, 04:24 PM
:haha:

Players are not pandas in a zoo available for exhibition from 8 to 5 Mon-Sun.

It shouldn't be their obligation to please these retards who make idols out of total strangers (see an excelent Noa interview posted by GWH a few weeks ago). I assume most people are interested in tennis, not in a stupid autograph.

It is usually part of their contract with a tournament to participate in certain events off-court though. I think Agassi should have given them due notice.

Tennis Fool
11-16-2005, 04:32 PM
:haha:

Players are not pandas in a zoo available for exhibition from 8 to 5 Mon-Sun.

It shouldn't be their obligation to please these retards who make idols out of total strangers (see an excelent Noa interview posted by GWH a few weeks ago). I assume most people are interested in tennis, not in a stupid autograph.
It seems to me that many players are "fan-friendly" only when it is convenient for them to be so. Idolization is something that comes with the territory. Why do you think Nike and Adidas robe players in their clothes? To get fans to take notice and to buy Nike and Addidas. Why do Maria Sharapova and Andre Agassi hawk Canon? Because Canon wants the fans to buy that camera. Why is "image" everything to Agassi? Because he wants to maintain interest and popularity.

If the players don't care for the fans, why not just give back all of the endorsements. (Rhetorical question).

So, in effect, they should play the panda game.

BTW, for the US posters, if you watch House, M.D., the topics of drug doping and hero worship were discussed yesterday. The episode involved an star biker who became ill and confessed to straight blood doping, while denying use of another drug (because it was bad for your system). He said that he had a problem with the word "worship" (a total, nonthinking adoration of someone) and wished that he wasn't worshiped. Funny also that he reminded me of 1) a certain #1 American tennis player in terms of looks and 2) the Lance Armstrong controversy over the summer.

ExpectedWinner
11-16-2005, 04:36 PM
It is usually part of their contract with a tournament to participate in certain events off-court though. I think Agassi should have given them due notice.

I agree that they should honor their contract. But I doubt that staying for a week in case of an injury was included initially.

Peoples
11-16-2005, 04:43 PM
Agassi is 35 and needs to be a lot more careful than a younger player. When he's injured then it's out of the question that he's playing. Besides he has a family with young kids so obviously he's not gonna hang around without playing just to keep the Chinese happy. The organizers should screw themselves and shut up.

Federer was just being diplomatic.

SAtennis
11-16-2005, 04:58 PM
Agassi is 35 and needs to be a lot more careful than a younger player. When he's injured then it's out of the question that he's playing. Besides he has a family with young kids so obviously he's not gonna hang around without playing just to keep the Chinese happy. The organizers should screw themselves and shut up.

Federer was just being diplomatic.


It's not about Agassi's body or injury. It's about his improper doing to the organizers and fans. Don't you get it? When so many people are unhappy there shoud be a good reason.

ExpectedWinner
11-16-2005, 04:59 PM
It seems to me that many players are "fan-friendly" only when it is convenient for them to be so. Idolization is something that comes with the territory. Why do you think Nike and Adidas robe players in their clothes? To get fans to take notice and to buy Nike and Addidas. Why do Maria Sharapova and Andre Agassi hawk Canon? Because Canon wants the fans to buy that camera. Why is "image" everything to Agassi? Because he wants to maintain interest and popularity.



They should do whatever their contracts with sponsors/tournament organizers oblige them to do. I'm sure pleasing crazy fans while being injured is not there. Also, a good lawyer will tell you that every contact can be read in many different ways.

prima donna
11-16-2005, 05:40 PM
At the moment, Roger is being asked to carry the weight of tennis on his shoulders. He is the anchor of the ship right now, so to speak and the fact that he's willing to put his body at risk ( Basically showed up playing on one leg, he says), it shows how generous he is and how important he feels it is to fulfill your obligations as a Tennis player. He is the best in the world right now and has a lot more to lose than some of the players that dropped out. Scratch that. Agassi doesn't know from one day to the next if he's even going to be able to get out of bed, maybe we should start calling him "Father Time", aside from that I'd say the other drop out is questionable.

The underlying reasoning seems not to so much be the lack of participation in the tournament, because plenty didn't show up, but the fact that they showed up and then just bailed out. It's highly inappropriate to arrive at an event, bitch about the surface and then pull out with some injury no one has ever heard of. That's almost a slap in the face, the directors have to feel insulted and if they didn't hold their ground here they'd be nothing more than pushovers.

All in All, Roger is completely justified in what he's saying and he's always been outspoken on issues in tennis, why should this one be any different for the world #1 ?

DJ dropshot
11-16-2005, 05:42 PM
I'd like to clarify some facts.



Kiro, since you're in the thick of things, I have some questions...

I don't remember seeing anything about Agassi in any of the promotional materials that have filtered from China to us in the US. He's not on the big posters around town that I've seen in images available to us here. I have followed the Masters Series sites in English and Chinese and just about all of what I've seen promoted Federer with an occasional nod to Nadal. Federer voted most popular...Fed/Nadal pack 1-2 punch, etc. Is this true or did I miss alot? (I'n not saying they shouldn't heavily promote these terrific players)
I guess I'm just curious as to how much a disappointment his specific withdrawal was to the ticket buyers if he was (or was not) heavily promoted prior to their arrival in Shanghai. If he was, then I feel for the fans. If not, then maybe the blow is not so bad?

celia
11-16-2005, 05:52 PM
Roger speaks like the #1 leader of the sport. he can see both sides and comments on both sides. that's exactly what tennis needs -- a fearless leader who can speak his own truth. :worship:

amierin
11-16-2005, 06:02 PM
BTW, for the US posters, if you watch House, M.D., the topics of drug doping and hero worship were discussed yesterday. The episode involved an star biker who became ill and confessed to straight blood doping, while denying use of another drug (because it was bad for your system). He said that he had a problem with the word "worship" (a total, nonthinking adoration of someone) and wished that he wasn't worshiped. Funny also that he reminded me of 1) a certain #1 American tennis player in terms of looks and 2) the Lance Armstrong controversy over the summer.

House was excellent in this regard. Makes you wonder even more about what goes on behind the scenes. That the cancer story was false was even more interesting IMO but that discussion is for another thread.
:D

nobama
11-16-2005, 06:06 PM
All in All, Roger is completely justified in what he's saying and he's always been outspoken on issues in tennis, why should this one be any different for the world #1 ? Exactly what issues has Roger spoken out on, besides being against electric line calling? The ATP, ITF, ect. have got to love him because he never bitches about anything. A slew of players have complained about the season being too long. What does Fed say - that the season is long but players just need to adjust their schedules. That they have a great tour, and they need to think about the tournament directors and sponsors and fans, ect. Earlier this year during Wimbledon there were complaints about the special seeding, of course Fed says he supports the system the way it is. Now with the Masters Cup he's the one out there saying it's on par with the Slams and even though some of the top players aren't competing there will still be great tennis, it's still a great event, ect.

The only issue I know of that he's really spoken out on was electronic line calling and how he's "absolutely against it".

sweetiepiedoll
11-16-2005, 06:10 PM
Roger is just happy that he doesn't have much competition left - so it will be easy for him to win the TMS Cup.

ExpectedWinner
11-16-2005, 06:16 PM
Roger is just happy that he doesn't have much competition left - so it will be easy for him to win the TMS Cup.

:haha:

Yep, he's known for notorious losing to top players. :rolleyes:

mandoura
11-16-2005, 06:17 PM
I think Federer is exagerating his injury. He wasn't on one leg or obviously he wouldn't be playing and running freely as he was. I understand his point, but I think his implicit criticism of other players is unjustified. He's holding himself up as some paragon, but his entire goal at the end of the year was to appear in Shanghai, a city he strongly supported to be the host of the Masters Cup.

He's got his priorities, but others have different priorities. I'm sure he wouldn't be thrilled to have his non-support of Davis Cup sneered at by other players either.

To me he talks out of both sides of his mouth in this interview. He says the anger is justified and that HE came on only one leg and is playing and implies that others should have done the same and then turns around and says oh well, I don't know their bodies.... blah blah blah.

"I don't know how bad it really was...but I think it's still great that he shows up and tried," said Federer. "Maybe the other guys could have tried too.

"I don't know. I don't think so because they know their bodies."

Where does he imply anything? He said Maybe = An uncertainty as opposed to should have = obligation/must. Complete opposite.

And then he said I don't know twice and I don't think so once.

I am a Rogelio fan and I seldom comment on his bashing. I really don't know why I am doing it now. :) :)

ExpectedWinner
11-16-2005, 06:21 PM
He is the anchor of the ship right now, so to speak and the fact that he's willing to put his body at risk ( Basically showed up playing on one leg, he says), it shows how generous he is and how important he feels it is to fulfill your obligations as a Tennis player.

Sorry, bit it shows that he's an idiot.

But then again- nobody on this level can play with a serious physical handicap. I said it about Nadal in Madrid and I repeat it here.

kiro
11-16-2005, 06:25 PM
Kiro, since you're in the thick of things, I have some questions...

I don't remember seeing anything about Agassi in any of the promotional materials that have filtered from China to us in the US. He's not on the big posters around town that I've seen in images available to us here. I have followed the Masters Series sites in English and Chinese and just about all of what I've seen promoted Federer with an occasional nod to Nadal. Federer voted most popular...Fed/Nadal pack 1-2 punch, etc. Is this true or did I miss alot? (I'n not saying they shouldn't heavily promote these terrific players)
I guess I'm just curious as to how much a disappointment his specific withdrawal was to the ticket buyers if he was (or was not) heavily promoted prior to their arrival in Shanghai. If he was, then I feel for the fans. If not, then maybe the blow is not so bad?

Agassi was not in the big posters, because he was not the ones who qualified earlier. By the time the big posters were printed and put on the street, only several players like Federer, Nadal, Safin, Roddick were confirmed. Let's have a look at this year's race, it was like that Federer and Nadal were leading pretty much. Behind them, Safin and Roddick. And other qualifiers, they got in the draw in the last minute. Hewitt was qualified on about Oct. 21, and Agassi didn't get his spot until David Nalbandian lost the Davidoff Swiss Indoors semifinals in Basel on Oct. 29.
The promotion has started very early, though. Obviously they can only promote those who already qualified.
But as soon as Agassi qualified, we have his image printed on all the promotional materials. We have flags alongside the road from the city center to Qizhong Tennis Centre (about 20 km) with players' images printed on it. Agassi's flags were among them too.
I am not a fan of Agassi at all. But I know a lot of Chinese tennis fans, they love Agassi. In the past, we haven't got any big tournaments. Chinese fans haven't got many chances to know other players. When we started to have tennis on TV, Agassi, Sampras, and Michael Chang started to be the only tennis idols. Therefore to the Chinese fans, they are special.
Michael went to China for several times and it was great memory. Sampras played Hong Kong too, and now he's retired.
I said in another thread that Agassi always appears as a nice guy in front of the media. And Chinese fans believed in that image. People here still want to keep the good impression. Partly because it was their dream from long ago.
I know it sounds stupid, but it's the truth.

prima donna
11-16-2005, 06:26 PM
Exactly what issues has Roger spoken out on, besides being against electric line calling? The ATP, ITF, ect. have got to love him because he never bitches about anything. A slew of players have complained about the season being too long. What does Fed say - that the season is long but players just need to adjust their schedules. That they have a great tour, and they need to think about the tournament directors and sponsors and fans, ect. Earlier this year during Wimbledon there were complaints about the special seeding, of course Fed says he supports the system the way it is. Now with the Masters Cup he's the one out there saying it's on par with the Slams and even though some of the top players aren't competing there will still be great tennis, it's still a great event, ect.

The only issue I know of that he's really spoken out on was electronic line calling and how he's "absolutely against it".
There really aren't many issues of any significance that face ATP play right now, the main issues are electronic line calling and the suggestion of perhaps a shorter season. Aside from that, tennis is tennis. Not politics and aside from the occasional press conference slip-up from players that's made, after being baited by reporters, not much is said.Roger has made his fair share of those, but it wasn't so much him not realizing the situation, he just chose to take the bait. After all this is the ATP and not the WTA. He's never bit his tongue on any issue, just because someone gives the "politically correct" answer or disquises what they really mean behind clever humor, something Roger is a master at doesn't necessarily mean they aren't outspoken. Everytime you turn around Roger is being interviewed or questioned about something, I watched him with the media before last season's YEC, an hour or so long interview on the TTC. He spoke about everything from A-Z, it's just that this isn't politics or the United Nations.

Information involving Federer's opinions is far and few between, mostly because they are trivial issues. It's much easier to find a scoreline from a match he played in 2002 against someone ranked 125 in the world than it is a quote from anything he's said as of late. :)

That being said, I can't remember a single word that was spoken from the hour long segment that I watched.

prima donna
11-16-2005, 06:29 PM
Roger is just happy that he doesn't have much competition left - so it will be easy for him to win the TMS Cup.
Shouldn't you be hiding under a bridge or do they have troll-accessable laptops available in stores now ?

celia
11-16-2005, 06:33 PM
Agassi was not in the big posters, because he was not the ones who qualified earlier. By the time the big posters were printed and put on the street, only several players like Federer, Nadal, Safin, Roddick were confirmed. Let's have a look at this year's race, it was like that Federer and Nadal were leading pretty much. Behind them, Safin and Roddick. And other qualifiers, they got in the draw in the last minute. Hewitt was qualified on about Oct. 21, and Agassi didn't get his spot until David Nalbandian lost the Davidoff Swiss Indoors semifinals in Basel on Oct. 29.
The promotion has started very early, though. Obviously they can only promote those who already qualified.
But as soon as Agassi qualified, we have his image printed on all the promotional materials. We have flags alongside the road from the city center to Qizhong Tennis Centre (about 20 km) with players' images printed on it. Agassi's flags were among them too.
I am not a fan of Agassi at all. But I know a lot of Chinese tennis fans, they love Agassi. In the past, we haven't got any big tournaments. Chinese fans haven't got many chances to know other players. When we started to have tennis on TV, Agassi, Sampras, and Michael Chang started to be the only tennis idols. Therefore to the Chinese fans, they are special.
Michael went to China for several times and it was great memory. Sampras played Hong Kong too, and now he's retired.
I said in another thread that Agassi always appears as a nice guy in front of the media. And Chinese fans believed in that image. People here still want to keep the good impression. Partly because it was their dream from long ago.
I know it sounds stupid, but it's the truth.
excellent post. players have a responsibility to the sport that is bigger than they are. RodDick and Gagassi should be in Shanghai IMO. people need to stop making excuses for these overpaid, overspoilt idiots.

tangerine_dream
11-16-2005, 06:47 PM
Shouldn't you be hiding under a bridge or do they have troll-accessable laptops available in stores now ?
...asked the troll hiding under the stairs.

jacobhiggins
11-16-2005, 06:49 PM
Federer is probablly one of the most honest people on the tour and what he said is the truth. He was very diplimoatic too, I think he's a perfect Number 1 and there's truth in a lot of what he has said!

prima donna
11-16-2005, 06:51 PM
...asked the troll hiding under the stairs.
I think the usage of the word hiding should be reserved for another time and place, preferably for players that cop-out or no show. :o

euroka1
11-16-2005, 06:54 PM
:hatoff: He's the most honest and genuine guy in the top ten and what's more, plays tennis better than any of them.

amierin
11-16-2005, 06:55 PM
Agassi was not in the big posters, because he was not the ones who qualified earlier. By the time the big posters were printed and put on the street, only several players like Federer, Nadal, Safin, Roddick were confirmed. Let's have a look at this year's race, it was like that Federer and Nadal were leading pretty much. Behind them, Safin and Roddick. And other qualifiers, they got in the draw in the last minute. Hewitt was qualified on about Oct. 21, and Agassi didn't get his spot until David Nalbandian lost the Davidoff Swiss Indoors semifinals in Basel on Oct. 29.
The promotion has started very early, though. Obviously they can only promote those who already qualified.
But as soon as Agassi qualified, we have his image printed on all the promotional materials. We have flags alongside the road from the city center to Qizhong Tennis Centre (about 20 km) with players' images printed on it. Agassi's flags were among them too.
I am not a fan of Agassi at all. But I know a lot of Chinese tennis fans, they love Agassi. In the past, we haven't got any big tournaments. Chinese fans haven't got many chances to know other players. When we started to have tennis on TV, Agassi, Sampras, and Michael Chang started to be the only tennis idols. Therefore to the Chinese fans, they are special.
Michael went to China for several times and it was great memory. Sampras played Hong Kong too, and now he's retired.
I said in another thread that Agassi always appears as a nice guy in front of the media. And Chinese fans believed in that image. People here still want to keep the good impression. Partly because it was their dream from long ago.
I know it sounds stupid, but it's the truth.

I want to say thank you Kiro for your honest and informative posts on the perspective from China.
I would like to say that many American fans feel the same way about Andre and that ESPN online is now talking about the tournament directors criticism of GodAndre. It's a small step but a big one. I have a friend who will not listen to any criticism of Andre because of the school and all the charity work he does. It will take a lot to tarnish his image in many minds.
__________________

AlexNYR
11-16-2005, 07:05 PM
kudos to the tournament organizers for finally telling it like it is....agassi only plays to win majors and smaller tournaments where he can make some appearance $$$ for his foundation...if he doesnt care about a tournament he wont play and in most cases wont even come up with a good excuse....i had him as a question mark right from the start but he made the trip then decided he had enough so it was time to go home...and i dont only blame him, but the people who enable him and let him get away with whatever he wants just cause he is agassi, american tennis's poster boy....

TenHound
11-16-2005, 07:19 PM
Fed just trying to please all sides. Well, yes...but, then again, I don't know how they felt...

He said Nothing. They came to avoid Paying Penalty & left 'cuz they had nothing further to play for. Federer is playing for history. He is the most seriously injured, but is the only one who has something on the line - records & points.

mangoes
11-16-2005, 07:39 PM
I want to say thank you Kiro for your honest and informative posts on the perspective from China.
I would like to say that many American fans feel the same way about Andre and that ESPN online is now talking about the tournament directors criticism of GodAndre. It's a small step but a big one. I have a friend who will not listen to any criticism of Andre because of the school and all the charity work he does. It will take a lot to tarnish his image in many minds.
__________________

Is that what you want to see happen? You want to see Andre's image tarnished? Ok, he made a decision that obviously was in poor judgement. Nevertheless, Andre does a lot of positive things. No one is perfect. There are good attributes and bad attributes to everyone. Andre has done a lot of positive things. It is for the very reason of his committment to his school that I won't say anything negative about Andre because at the end of the day, Andre building a school for underpriviledged children trumps him leaving Shanghai in a manner that wasn't very courteous.

euroka1
11-16-2005, 07:40 PM
Fed just trying to please all sides. Well, yes...but, then again, I don't know how they felt...

He said Nothing. They came to avoid Paying Penalty & left 'cuz they had nothing further to play for. Federer is playing for history. He is the most seriously injured, but is the only one who has something on the line - records & points.

He is also the one who takes his tennis most seriously and is not hampered by the need for exhibitions and the like.

amierin
11-16-2005, 07:42 PM
Is that what you are trying to do? Tarnish Andre's image? Ok, he made a decision that obviously was in poor judgement. Nevertheless, Andre does a lot of positive things. No one is perfect. There are good attributes and bad attributes to everyone. Andre has done a lot of positive things.

No, I think Andre has done a lot of good but I think when he's wrong he should be called on it. This will tarnish his image by making him more of a man than a superman. He is not a god, he is a man. He's been getting a free ride from the American press and the commentators who would rather diss and disparage other players at Andre's expense.
If this was the only incident involving Andre I'd write it off as an aberration. It's not. It's just that the Chinese went public with it and now it's open for discussion.

DJ dropshot
11-16-2005, 07:52 PM
Agassi was not in the big posters, because he was not the ones who qualified earlier. By the time the big posters were printed and put on the street, only several players like Federer, Nadal, Safin, Roddick were confirmed. Let's have a look at this year's race, it was like that Federer and Nadal were leading pretty much. Behind them, Safin and Roddick. And other qualifiers, they got in the draw in the last minute. Hewitt was qualified on about Oct. 21, and Agassi didn't get his spot until David Nalbandian lost the Davidoff Swiss Indoors semifinals in Basel on Oct. 29.
The promotion has started very early, though. Obviously they can only promote those who already qualified.
But as soon as Agassi qualified, we have his image printed on all the promotional materials. We have flags alongside the road from the city center to Qizhong Tennis Centre (about 20 km) with players' images printed on it. Agassi's flags were among them too.
I am not a fan of Agassi at all. But I know a lot of Chinese tennis fans, they love Agassi. In the past, we haven't got any big tournaments. Chinese fans haven't got many chances to know other players. When we started to have tennis on TV, Agassi, Sampras, and Michael Chang started to be the only tennis idols. Therefore to the Chinese fans, they are special.
Michael went to China for several times and it was great memory. Sampras played Hong Kong too, and now he's retired.
I said in another thread that Agassi always appears as a nice guy in front of the media. And Chinese fans believed in that image. People here still want to keep the good impression. Partly because it was their dream from long ago.
I know it sounds stupid, but it's the truth.

Thank you for the reply - you have been quite generous in your reports and I thank you very much. I am very sorry for the fans for this who are missing their favorites but hope they find that the players remaining can be very exciting to watch.

On the Agassi debate - if is seen that he erred badly, I sincerely hope the press does not blow it out of proportion. No one wants to be disappointed by someone they've admired. It is not enough of a faux pas to erase 20 years of Chinese support.

mangoes
11-16-2005, 07:52 PM
No, I think Andre has done a lot of good but I think when he's wrong he should be called on it. This will tarnish his image by making him more of a man than a superman. He is not a god, he is a man. He's been getting a free ride from the American press and the commentators who would rather diss and disparage other players at Andre's expense.
If this was the only incident involving Andre I'd write it off as an aberration. It's not. It's just that the Chinese went public with it and now it's open for discussion.


No one is perfect. But Andre has used his opportunities to offer some to those less fortunate. Andre isn't a god, he is a man, that is why he is not perfect. Andre is a legend and does make a lot of money for Tennis, so yes, he does get more of a free pass than others. Is that always fair? No, but it's business and life. It happens everywhere, not just in America.

And minor incidents of stupidity does not make him a terrible person, nor does it warrant a need to see his image tarnished. Because, at the end of the day, a man who has given so much back to the community has, as a result, shown people what's in his heart.

Many players and celebrities do publicity stunts and say a lot of things that are meaningless, all in an effort to advance their public image. Andre didn't just talk, he put his money where his mouth was................... He isn't perfect, but we know that he has a good heart and it isn't just fluff for his public image.

amierin
11-16-2005, 08:00 PM
No one is perfect. But Andre has used his opportunities to offer some to those less fortunate. Andre isn't a god, he is a man, that is why he is not perfect. Andre is a legend and does make a lot of money for Tennis, so yes, he does get more of a free pass than others. Is that always fair? No, but it's business and life. It happens everywhere, not just in America.

And minor incidents of stupidity does not make him a terrible person, nor does it warrant a need to see his image tarnished. Because, at the end of the day, a man who has given so much back to the community has, as a result, shown people what's in his heart.

Many players and celebrities do publicity stunts and say a lot of things that are meaningless, all in an effort to advance their public image. Andre didn't just talk, he put his money where his mouth was................... He isn't perfect, but we know that he has a good heart and it isn't just fluff for his public image.

I think we can agree to disagree on this one but I will ask this question: If this had been Nadal or one of the WS the furor would be raging until kingdom come. Remember when Venus pulled out of a tourney a few minutes before she was set to play? The fans booed Serena and called her racist names. The sisters still don't go to that tournament.
If Nadal had simply not shown up the snark by commentators and the tennis press would never end. Just remember today's match was supposed to be Nadal/Agassi.

The Chinese have called the baby ugly, told an ugly truth, and while I applaud Andre's good works the fact that he regularly treats his peers as lesser beings and tournaments as his person fiefdom needs to be put up next to his good behavior.

PaulieM
11-16-2005, 08:04 PM
you've got to love the selective reading from some people :rolleyes:

mangoes
11-16-2005, 08:06 PM
I think we can agree to disagree on this one but I will ask this question: If this had been Nadal or one of the WS the furor would be raging until kingdom come. Remember when Venus pulled out of a tourney a few minutes before she was set to play? The fans booed Serena and called her racist names. The sisters still don't go to that tournament.
If Nadal had simply not shown up the snark by commentators and the tennis press would never end. Just remember today's match was supposed to be Nadal/Agassi.

The Chinese have called the baby ugly, told an ugly truth, and while I applaud Andre's good works the fact that he regularly treats his peers as lesser beings and tournaments as his person fiefdom needs to be put up next to his good behavior.


I am not defending Agassi's actions in Shanghai. I also think that Venus and Serena are absolutely correct to not play Indian Wells, but those are my personal opinions on the subject which aren't similar, in my opinion, to this situation.

That said, I am not defending Agassi's actions. What I am saying is that your need to rack it up to "americanism" and talk about people finally talking about his ways on espn.com are really going overboard.

He made an error in judgement. That's all. Does it warrant all this crap? No. Should he say sorry? Yes. Am I going to say that it's great people are seeing he isn't perfect? NO, because I believe he had a good heart. He just showed bad judgement, something everyone has done at some point.

Furthermore, which players have said Andre treats them like crap? And while this may be unpopular with you, I think Andre's charity work trumps his actions in China. No player is a god to me. They're people, like you and me. They make mistakes and have "off" days. So knowing that, I am more interested in what any person does over time. Andre has done something in life that is to be commended, so much so, when I read about Shanghai, I shook my head, muttered, 'say sorry Andre', and I moved on................to rag on another player :lol:

Clara Bow
11-16-2005, 08:07 PM
I didn't see anything telling me he had to head home for emergency surgery or anything like that

He didn't go home for medical surgery- no- but he did immediately undergo 4 medical tests in Barclelona so it's not like he went home to woop it up.

I do agree with the earlier poster who said it was a lose-lose situations. If the players had withdrawn before the tournament- there would have been anger. If Agassi withdrew before playing his one match there would have been anger. If Nadal played a match and then withdrew there would have been anger. If either had played and exacerbated their injuries to the point where they could be out for months (which the medical report for Nadal said could very well happen if he played)- then that would be a shame.

I do wish that Agassi had told the organizers first and not just told the press conference. But he seems to be the type of guy that when he wants to leave- he leaves straightaway. I do wish Agassi sometimes handled his withdrawels better. But I don't think that makes him a bad human. He does do a lot of good- is one of the most charitable athletes on the planet. But he does has faults- as does everyone since humans are indeed mutli-faceted. I can like and be fans of players but also realize that they do make goofs. ;)

mangoes
11-16-2005, 08:10 PM
He didn't go home for medical surgery- no- but he did immediately undergo 4 medical tests in Barclelona so it's not like he went home to woop it up.

I do agree with the earlier poster who said it was a lose-lose situations. If the players had withdrawn before the tournament- there would have been anger. If Agassi withdrew before playing his one match there would have been anger. If Nadal played a match and then withdrew there would have been anger. If either had played and exacerbated their injuries to the point where they could be out for months (which the medical report for Nadal said could very well happen if he played)- then that would be a shame.

I do wish that Agassi had told the organizers first and not just told the press conference. But he seems to be the type of guy that when he wants to leave- he leaves straightaway. I do wish Agassi sometimes handled his withdrawels better. But I don't think that makes him a bad human. He does do a lot of good- is one of the most charitable athletes on the planet. But he does has faults- as does everyone since humans are indeed mutli-faceted. I can like and be fans of players but also realize that they do make goofs. ;)

Agree.

DhammaTiger
11-16-2005, 08:13 PM
Fed just trying to please all sides. Well, yes...but, then again, I don't know how they felt...

He said Nothing. They came to avoid Paying Penalty & left 'cuz they had nothing further to play for. Federer is playing for history. He is the most seriously injured, but is the only one who has something on the line - records & points.
How do you know Rafa is not seriously injured as well? FYI, he has been checked by all the doctors in shanghai, who were recommended to him, plus the atp doctor, plus in a conference call his own doctor, all recommended that he should not play, but the final decision was his. Additionally, all recommended that he goes back to Spain immediately to begin evaluation and treatment, so, he would be fit in the coming season. I believe if Roger was given a similar advice, he would have not played as well. In the case of Rafa, if treatment doesn't start immediately he will suffer in the long run. From personal experience, I can say that. Last July I injured my arm, but continued playing and delayed treatment until mid September. As a result, it hasn't healed properly. Sport injuries have to be treated and looked after as soon as possible, otherwise, they can get worse. just look at Marat, I understand that he delayed his treatment, and as you can see his recovery has been that much more difficult. Remember these fellows earn their living through physical effort, and are much more prone to injuries than ordinary people, therefore they must look after their physical well being in order to continue their carers and earning potential.
I don't believe any of them is faking or exaggerating the injuries they suffered. It's just that some players have more diplomacy, tact or whatever, and handle situations better. In my opinion, Agassi is not served well by his PR machine and handlers,and thus has made worse a situation that if handled properly, as has been pointed here, would have enhanced his image in the twilight of his career rather than what has happened.
It's really very unfortunate. I am sorry for the hosts, the city of Shanghai and the TMC committee, and the fans. However, as far as the ATP goes they are to blame for mollycoddling some players, who shall remain nameless, and making them feel that they can get away with anything.
However, I must give kudos to Roger and Rafa,and dear old Marat,for being exemplery professionals and assets to World Tennis.

DhammaTiger
11-16-2005, 08:17 PM
He didn't go home for medical surgery- no- but he did immediately undergo 4 medical tests in Barclelona so it's not like he went home to woop it up.

I do agree with the earlier poster who said it was a lose-lose situations. If the players had withdrawn before the tournament- there would have been anger. If Agassi withdrew before playing his one match there would have been anger. If Nadal played a match and then withdrew there would have been anger. If either had played and exacerbated their injuries to the point where they could be out for months (which the medical report for Nadal said could very well happen if he played)- then that would be a shame.

I do wish that Agassi had told the organizers first and not just told the press conference. But he seems to be the type of guy that when he wants to leave- he leaves straightaway. I do wish Agassi sometimes handled his withdrawels better. But I don't think that makes him a bad human. He does do a lot of good- is one of the most charitable athletes on the planet. But he does has faults- as does everyone since humans are indeed mutli-faceted. I can like and be fans of players but also realize that they do make goofs. ;)
Very well put. :hatoff: I wish I could give you a good rep but"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Clara Bow again". :worship: .

seven
11-16-2005, 08:34 PM
Well, as for Safin, criticism would be ridiculous, as he is fighting for his whole career at the moment, and had to quit so many tournaments this year because of that permanent knee injury :rolleyes:
As for the other guys, I don´t know, it´s hard to judge, but why risking to make an injury worse for three matches you might lose, because you cannot play your best :confused:
It´s sad for the tournament, I understand their disappointment, but I also understand all of the players, if you´re injured, it´s better not to play.

mallorn
11-16-2005, 09:53 PM
I’m sorry, but if this is an accurate report, I don’t like Roger’s comments. It's as if he is trying to please both sides. If he admits that he doesn’t know how serious their injuries really are, I don’t understand why he says "I think criticism is allowed at this point" and "Maybe the other guys could have tried too.” :shrug: All in all, I think his comments were inconsistent.
At the moment, Roger is being asked to carry the weight of tennis on his shoulders. He is the anchor of the ship right now, so to speak and the fact that he's willing to put his body at risk ( Basically showed up playing on one leg, he says), it shows how generous he is and how important he feels it is to fulfill your obligations as a Tennis player.
By singling him out like that you’re implying that others do not think it is important “to fulfil their obligations as a tennis player”. I agree that the manner of Agassi’s pullout may be interpreted this way, but please don’t put all the players in one bag. In this particular case, Safin and Nadal have done their part at least as far as fulfilling their media obligations goes. Obviously since they were injured they could not have fulfilled their obligation to play. I agree with dtiger, I’m quite sure that if Roger had been told by three doctors that there was a big risk of aggravating his injury (as was the case with Rafa) he wouldn’t have decided to play either because he is not an idiot. If Nadal had decided to play, torn his ligament and ended up out of the tour for three months people would be saying that he’s stupid and overplayed. :shrug:
The underlying reasoning seems not to so much be the lack of participation in the tournament, because plenty didn't show up, but the fact that they showed up and then just bailed out. It's highly inappropriate to arrive at an event, bitch about the surface and then pull out with some injury no one has ever heard of. That's almost a slap in the face, the directors have to feel insulted and if they didn't hold their ground here they'd be nothing more than pushovers.
How can they be insulted by the players getting injured? There are medical reports about the players’ condition, and although we, fans, have no access to them and can speculate if the injuries are legitimate or not, the organisers have it black on white and I haven’t heard them saying that the players are faking. They have the right to be disappointed, certainly, but they can’t expect the players to play against doctors' recommendations. From what I’ve read they are angry with Agassi for the way he handled his withdrawal not for the fact that he retired. And as some poster mentioned, they were in fact quite pleased with how Nadal handled the situation, even if they must have been devastated by the news.
As for your claim that no one had heard about the injuries before, that’s simply not true. I read reports about Agassi spraining his ankle playing racquetball prior to the tournament, and here on MTF Galaxystorm also posted (before the tournament started) reports from the Spanish media about Nadal’s ankle injured in the Madrid final.
On a lighter note, someone mentioned the posters for this event, here’s one that I liked. I love how Ivan is hanging on to the frame. ;)
http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/8270/c01b11qn8lh.th.jpg (http://img275.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c01b11qn8lh.jpg)

K-Dog
11-16-2005, 09:55 PM
For all those super PC non-Federer fans, he can say this if he wants. He has been injured too and he somehow found a way to be back in time. To me, Federer is such a nice guy and really has no rift with any other player on the tour. No other players are going to take issue with him since they would look foolish because Federer practically owns every player out there. I think that Fed's results and Fed's ranking allow him to call out other players who come to the tournament and then pull-out. I guarentee if Andre would've somehow won his match, he would've stayed no matter how sore the ankle was. Andre just doesn't like playing in Shanghai period. I love Andre, but this was a little weak on his part. WHY THE HELL WOULD A TENNIS PLAYERS PLAY RACQUETBALL?? That is the worst sport to play for a tennis player because you could easily get hurt and it is totally opposite of tennis in the strokes. Nadal has been complaining the last few weeks about the surface, so of course he's hurt now even though he's had how many weeks to take care of himself. If he wasn't going to play, then he shouldn't have gone to Shanghai in the first place.

I don't think he was calling out Lleyton, I mean every anti-Hewitt person finds his reason acceptable and it is obvious that that is very important to any new father. With Safin, he had knee surgery, so he isn't going to be here anyway. Fed wasn't happy that certain players don't put the same effort into this tournament and put forward the same level of professional that he does for argueably the 5th most important tournament of the year. I mean Fed might've been in a worse position that some of thses guys in the first place, and still found it important for him to support the tour and the Tennis Masters Cup. To me, Federer can say whatever he wants because he owns two majors this year, obviously number 1 in the world, and clearly a legend in the making. He is so professional and diplomatic about what he has to say, and yet people still find ways to bring Fed down for anything the slightest bit not politically correct. He isn't even a mean-spirited guy and you guys try to eat away at him and make him something he isn't. He deserves to be arrogant now. Why shouldn't he be? I mean he's done everything but win RG, and I'm sure he'll do that someday. The man is probably to most humble no.1 in the last few god knows how many years. Give him a break. Tennis players need to learn how to play hurt and deal with it. Players of other sports do, why can't tennis players? Heck is you're are a North American Football player and you don't play hurt when you can, you are ostracized!! Look at Brett Favre, that man plays hurt almost every week!! Tennis players need to quit being such complainers and just play!!

etiage
11-16-2005, 11:02 PM
I can understand their disappointment but I have not seen any angry reaction towards Nadal. On the contrary, they were impressed with the way he dealt with it. There's not much more he could have done about it IMO.

I think that both Nadal and Agassi were in a loss-loss situation.
Should they have stayed home? They would be criticized for not coming because Federer has come on one leg so why can't they at least try to play?
Should they have come to Shanghai anyway and do the very best to play (like I believe both these guys were doing) than they get criticized anyway when it's clear that they are not fit enough so they should have given the opportunity to another player.
:confused:
Are they only looking for an easy target to blame this mess on or are they willing to sit down and think about the situation properly?


i guess disappointment would be a negative emotion for me
so to clarify, upset with andre, disappointed and understanding with nadal

btw, nadal just basically did what roger did: show up at shanghai hoping for the best. it just didn't work out for him like it did for roger.

we were speculating about roger because he's been saying he's hoping but not too certain since the get go

i didn't see a "will he or not" discussion for nadal and just assumed that everything was ok with him or that he didn't mention this in recent interviews

Clara Bow
11-16-2005, 11:33 PM
Tennis players need to learn how to play hurt and deal with it. Players of other sports do, why can't tennis players?

Because if they play when they should not they could very easily exacerbate the injury and make it much worse. A number of players, including Nadal, have said that there is always almost something that doesn't feel right for tennis players -that's just part of the sport. So they do play often when they are not 100%. But- there is the issure of if playing with the injury that will be made worse if they do not let it heal properly and will have much more harmful effects in the future. It is not just a question of dealing with pain- it is a question of putting your longer term future at risk if you play with certain injuries. Look at Safin this year- he played when he will still hurting and made his knee injury much worse. :(

I don't know- since I really like the sport of tennis I would rather have players be out for one or two months and let an injury heal then play an with an injury that could be worsened by the game play, cause much worse damage, and then be out for a good number of months or really shorten their careers.

I for one hate that some of my favorite players such as Guga have had injuries that have gotten to the point where they need surgery and have really taken them out of the game. (And I know that happens in other sports too- doesn't mean I like it there either.) And I just cross my fingers that Marat will be able to come back and hasn't really ruined his knee for good. But to me one of the worst decisions he made this year was playing Cincy. Doctors advised him not to- but he did not heed their advice, played and he made it worse when he did. So I was not glad that he just played through the hurt and dealt with it. He is dealing now with the result of playing when his knee was not ready, he was in pain, and the play that he did made his injury worse.

And as a Cubs fan- I have seen quite a few players (Wood, Prior for two big examples) who are out with injuries a lot. So tennis is not alone in this regard. And American football- yes they play with injuries a lot. But it is a different sport so in my opinion comparing apples and oranges. The season is not nearly as long- and they only play one game a week, as opposed to several matches a tournament. Yes it is a very intense sport and it does have a lot of injuries- some very intense. But also keep in mind that it is a team sport- whereas tennis is an individual sport. So if a Rothlisberger plays with an injury- makes it worse- and is out for the next few games there is a back up quarterback (hopefully not Maddox! :eek: ) So there is always a back-up, someone to fill the postion. In tennis - there is just one player and if he or she gets injured and/or makes an injury much worse and is out for months- there is no one that can get in and retain his or her ranking and win matches for him or her.

K-Dog
11-17-2005, 12:24 AM
Because if they play when they should not they could very easily exacerbate the injury and make it much worse. A number of players, including Nadal, have said that there is always almost something that doesn't feel right for tennis players -that's just part of the sport. So they do play often when they are not 100%. But- there is the issure of if playing with the injury that will be made worse if they do not let it heal properly and will have much more harmful effects in the future. It is not just a question of dealing with pain- it is a question of putting your longer term future at risk if you play with certain injuries. Look at Safin this year- he played when he will still hurting and made his knee injury much worse. :(

I don't know- since I really like the sport of tennis I would rather have players be out for one or two months and let an injury heal then play an with an injury that could be worsened by the game play, cause much worse damage, and then be out for a good number of months or really shorten their careers.

I for one hate that some of my favorite players such as Guga have had injuries that have gotten to the point where they need surgery and have really taken them out of the game. (And I know that happens in other sports too- doesn't mean I like it there either.) And I just cross my fingers that Marat will be able to come back and hasn't really ruined his knee for good. But to me one of the worst decisions he made this year was playing Cincy. Doctors advised him not to- but he did not heed their advice, played and he made it worse when he did. So I was not glad that he just played through the hurt and dealt with it. He is dealing now with the result of playing when his knee was not ready, he was in pain, and the play that he did made his injury worse.

And as a Cubs fan- I have seen quite a few players (Wood, Prior for two big examples) who are out with injuries a lot. So tennis is not alone in this regard. And American football- yes they play with injuries a lot. But it is a different sport so in my opinion comparing apples and oranges. The season is not nearly as long- and they only play one game a week, as opposed to several matches a tournament. Yes it is a very intense sport and it does have a lot of injuries- some very intense. But also keep in mind that it is a team sport- whereas tennis is an individual sport. So if a Rothlisberger plays with an injury- makes it worse- and is out for the next few games there is a back up quarterback (hopefully not Maddox! :eek: ) So there is always a back-up, someone to fill the postion. In tennis - there is just one player and if he or she gets injured and/or makes an injury much worse and is out for months- there is no one that can get in and retain his or her ranking and win matches for him or her.

You defiantly make some good counterpoints!! I mean I guess as an athlete myself who played with ankle sprains, broken fingers(in volleyball), jammed fingers in basketball, shin splits in tennis, and strained rotator-cuff for volleyball, i guess I don't sympathize with tennis players when they have little niggly injuries. I mean Marat shouldn't be playing obviously. But I mean A LOT of the women are out for way too long based on their injuries. I don't think that Andy's injury is very legit (he's had enough time to rest and receive therapy on his back), I don't do where Nadal's foot problem came up, and Andre should know that racquetball isn't a good sport for tennis players anyway. It just seems that tennis players allow pain to consume their minds and not allow them to play like they still can. Some injuries can be played on. Only really chronic or serious injuries shouldn't be played on. I don't want players to have to worsen their injuries, but there has to be some point to where pain should be dealt with. It is part of sports.

You're right about team sports. With pitchers, they only do one thing the whole game, so if anything is bothering their arm, they can't pitch. Tennis players sometimes allow little niggly injuries to be made into huge deals. The tennis season should be shortened to let players rehab, or players should learn from Federer on how to pace themselves. I mean how hard is it to play on your own terms and still play the required amount of tournaments. If you pace yourself, your going to play more tournaments fresh and not be worn out or injured. What happen with Fed was kind of a freak incident, but his schedule is perfect for a top player.

Tennis players need to learn how to pace themselves and need to learn how to prevent injuries. If an injury occurs, it needs to be dealt with immediatley and not put off the train 3 hours a day. Tennis needs to do something about injuries and needs to put the health of players first and foremost. Also tennis players need to play through some pain and not whine about it is something is bothering them a little bit. Obviously there is a point where pain is too great to deal with, which might really be the case in this Tennis Masters Cup.

hitchhiker
11-17-2005, 02:52 AM
how do such boring comments make so much discussion?

Oriental_Rain
11-17-2005, 03:10 AM
this is why Fed deserved the sportsmanship award. He plays not only for himself but for the fans :worship:

TenHound
11-17-2005, 04:20 AM
Dtiger, you're right, I wasn't very clear or comprehensive. My main point was not to exaggerate what Roger said. He wasn't trying to criticize anyone, or really say much of anything at all except to try to smooth things over for everyone.

I have no problem w/the rest of them leaving. The surface is dangerous & I partially wish Roger had pulled out as well. It's very distressing watching him play on that "tacky" surface, worrying that he'll hurt himself more.

But I think people are also downplaying the extent to which this is a battle between the Players & ATP over season length. Unless players do something like this, the issue will not be forced to the Top of the Agenda. Talk of how broken, crazy & out of control the whole system is is overshadowing mere tennis talk in the Press & That is Essential if anything is to be changed. And if Rafa @age 19 has a serious foot problem, that underscores it even more.

Baseball players have ~4 mos. off. Tennis players should have at least 2 off, when they are not allowed to play any matches. Down time has to be required or Greedy Agents, Int'l Mobsters Group etc., will sched. exhibitions & god knows what else to lure players, who, after all, do love to play, when rested, and have too short a career.

its.like.that
11-17-2005, 04:39 AM
"Sort of arrived basically on one leg. Now that I can play it's fantastic. It should also show a message how important this tournament is to tennis. For me this equals a grand slam."

:lol:

Roger is such a suck-up.

its.like.that
11-17-2005, 04:40 AM
China has a lot of money, they can get over it.

and the good players deserve their rest.

:)

nobama
11-17-2005, 04:42 AM
Fed had six weeks off this year after Wimbledon, and I'm assuming enjoyed a very nice holiday in Dubai. He didn't have YE #1 locked up at that point. So how is it that he is able to get a break/holiday in but others aren't? :shrug:

its.like.that
11-17-2005, 04:50 AM
Fed had six weeks off this year after Wimbledon, and I'm assuming enjoyed a very nice holiday in Dubai. He didn't have YE #1 locked up at that point. So how is it that he is able to get a break/holiday in but others aren't? :shrug:

it's amazing what making to SF and better at 3 slams does for your ranking.

:lol:

TenHound
11-17-2005, 06:10 AM
its.like.that. Good one => You're saying that Roger's Motto should be Veni, Vidi, Vici :)

TenHound
11-17-2005, 06:24 AM
I'm afraid this thread is dead, but I'll post this here for starters...and perhaps elsewhere later, as Everyone should Definitely Read it. I was criticized earlier for being sceptical of RN's injury. Here's 1st paragraph of Neil Harman's columnn in tomorrow's timesonline.co.uk:

INTRIGUING subplots have never been far below the surface of this Masters Cup, what with the Chinese Government telling its local apparatchiks to lay off Andre Agassi and toe the official party line that everything about the tournament is pleasing on the eye. Rafael Nadal has flown home to Spain, leaving behind a marked degree of mystification about the decision to pull out a day after practising without so much as a twinge.

DrJules
11-17-2005, 08:32 AM
I'm afraid this thread is dead, but I'll post this here for starters...and perhaps elsewhere later, as Everyone should Definitely Read it. I was criticized earlier for being sceptical of RN's injury. Here's 1st paragraph of Neil Harman's columnn in tomorrow's timesonline.co.uk:

INTRIGUING subplots have never been far below the surface of this Masters Cup, what with the Chinese Government telling its local apparatchiks to lay off Andre Agassi and toe the official party line that everything about the tournament is pleasing on the eye. Rafael Nadal has flown home to Spain, leaving behind a marked degree of mystification about the decision to pull out a day after practising without so much as a twinge.

Does this mean the doctors who examined Rafael Nadal have falsified their reports? Anyway what you see may not reflect his physical condition and the pain he is feeling.

seven
11-17-2005, 08:39 AM
You defiantly make some good counterpoints!! I mean I guess as an athlete myself who played with ankle sprains, broken fingers(in volleyball), jammed fingers in basketball, shin splits in tennis, and strained rotator-cuff for volleyball, i guess I don't sympathize with tennis players when they have little niggly injuries. I mean Marat shouldn't be playing obviously. But I mean A LOT of the women are out for way too long based on their injuries. I don't think that Andy's injury is very legit (he's had enough time to rest and receive therapy on his back), I don't do where Nadal's foot problem came up, and Andre should know that racquetball isn't a good sport for tennis players anyway. It just seems that tennis players allow pain to consume their minds and not allow them to play like they still can. Some injuries can be played on. Only really chronic or serious injuries shouldn't be played on. I don't want players to have to worsen their injuries, but there has to be some point to where pain should be dealt with. It is part of sports.

You're right about team sports. With pitchers, they only do one thing the whole game, so if anything is bothering their arm, they can't pitch. Tennis players sometimes allow little niggly injuries to be made into huge deals. The tennis season should be shortened to let players rehab, or players should learn from Federer on how to pace themselves. I mean how hard is it to play on your own terms and still play the required amount of tournaments. If you pace yourself, your going to play more tournaments fresh and not be worn out or injured. What happen with Fed was kind of a freak incident, but his schedule is perfect for a top player.

Tennis players need to learn how to pace themselves and need to learn how to prevent injuries. If an injury occurs, it needs to be dealt with immediatley and not put off the train 3 hours a day. Tennis needs to do something about injuries and needs to put the health of players first and foremost. Also tennis players need to play through some pain and not whine about it is something is bothering them a little bit. Obviously there is a point where pain is too great to deal with, which might really be the case in this Tennis Masters Cup.

Play through pain, you can´t be serious with that. I agree with you, that ther´re definitely some slight injuries that you can play with, without danger to worsen it. But how can you judge how serious the injuries of the players are? You only know, what´s reported by the media. These are professionel players, not hobby players, that do this in their time off. They have to take much more care of their body than anybody else, as the physical stress is immense, so that their body is damaged at the end of their career, and a lot of them have to retire too early.
Look at Agassi, he´s 35, do you think he would still play, if he would play, when he´s injured, "going through his pain"?
Yes, players should be able to make a schedule, that prevents them from injuries, but there is no guarantee, if you make such a schedule, you´ll have no serious injuries, if it would be so easy, great. I think some players just tend more to injuries, their body is more fragile, Federer makes a very good schedule for himself, no doubt, but he´s also lucky that his body seems to be more resistant to injuries than others.

almouchie
11-17-2005, 08:50 AM
its like i read somewhere Masters Cup turning to Disaster Club
its long beenthe problem with tennis. LONG SEASON, if it where ever a season its a fully loaded year.
in many other sports u have a break somewhere or a less hectic schedule & there isnt really a mystery why most tennis players creeping at 30s start to deteriorate & slow down.
when 5 of the top eight withdraw from season finale, its worth having a look at it. until the player collectively decide to do something about it , it will always be athletes moaning about how hard their careers are.
Money, money, power, influence & all variety of factors will play a role in keeping the schedule as it is.
they probably need a player strike b4 any1 takes into consideration the long season.

seven
11-17-2005, 09:10 AM
And as for Nadal, this guy is so enthusiastic and played so many tournaments this year, do you really think he would skip the MC that is one of the greatest tourneys in the year and much more important than most of the tournaments he has played this year, just because he doesn´t like surface :smash: ?
Then why did he play Halle and Wimbledon?

G O
11-17-2005, 10:05 AM
House was excellent in this regard. Makes you wonder even more about what goes on behind the scenes. That the cancer story was false was even more interesting IMO but that discussion is for another thread.
:D


Are you serious?! Holy shit your are stupid. Oh my god I'm sorry, seriously your stupid. Actually Lance died some years ago and the whole story was put together by the US Postal Service.

It's thoughts like these that make me fear the future. When people look to shit shows on FOX to provide us with thought provoking insights on important world events like doping and athletes with egos.

K-Dog
11-17-2005, 08:42 PM
Play through pain, you can´t be serious with that. I agree with you, that ther´re definitely some slight injuries that you can play with, without danger to worsen it. But how can you judge how serious the injuries of the players are? You only know, what´s reported by the media. These are professionel players, not hobby players, that do this in their time off. They have to take much more care of their body than anybody else, as the physical stress is immense, so that their body is damaged at the end of their career, and a lot of them have to retire too early.
Look at Agassi, he´s 35, do you think he would still play, if he would play, when he´s injured, "going through his pain"?
Yes, players should be able to make a schedule, that prevents them from injuries, but there is no guarantee, if you make such a schedule, you´ll have no serious injuries, if it would be so easy, great. I think some players just tend more to injuries, their body is more fragile, Federer makes a very good schedule for himself, no doubt, but he´s also lucky that his body seems to be more resistant to injuries than others.

Yes play thru pain!! I have and it is only as bad as you make it in your head. Some injuries shouldn't and can't be played on. But these players need to have a higher pain tolerance especially with the off-season next week.

KoOlMaNsEaN
11-17-2005, 10:21 PM
Even though the surface doesn't help it is ultimately the schedule the top players must face