A rather odd, but possibly valid point about Federer... [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

A rather odd, but possibly valid point about Federer...

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 09:38 PM
While watching the Federer v Kiefer match something sprang to mind. It's not really relevant to today's match, as Kiefer hasn't really served well but anyway I thought I'd make the point....

Federer has been hugely comfortable again 99% of the players on the tour. Very few have been giving him any sorts of problems. However, 2 players that he appears to be slightly uncomfortable against are Hrbaty and Kiefer. Looking at their games, there isn't much there to suggest they should cause Federer any particularly large problems, they have rankings of 17 and 38 respectively certainly would suggest that the likes of Roddick and Hewitt should cause him more problems. However, there is something which Hrbaty and Kiefer possess, that very few other players on the tour possess......

An extremely high ball toss!

Anything to this? Maybe Federer just isn't able to anticipate where a serve is going with someone who tosses the ball so high, as he is with a serve like Roddick's.....just a thought ;)

vincayou
09-06-2005, 09:41 PM
He's definitely "struggling" against Kiefer each time they meet. Exactly what I was telling myself. I need to check the H2H.

Skyward
09-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Yes, the rest of the tour should start emulating the toss of Kuchrera and Novotna. :eek:

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 09:44 PM
He's definitely "struggling" against Kiefer each time they meet. Exactly what I was telling myself. I need to check the H2H.

I presume that was an attempt at sarcasm. Kiefer is one of the few people who have managed to even take a set off Federer recently. And he may well be about to do so today.

vincayou
09-06-2005, 09:47 PM
I presume that was an attempt at sarcasm. Kiefer is one of the few people who have managed to even take a set off Federer recently. And he may well be about to do so today.

No no it wasn't sarcasm! I remember their match at wimbledon.

kundalini
09-06-2005, 09:53 PM
I've noticed that Kiefer seems competitive with Federer. Not necessarily in the sense of winning matches, more in the sense that once the match is over, you are left with the feeling that Kiefer could have won it.

Anyway, Kiefer just tool the tiebreak to make it 1-1. Not sure we are going to see a huge upset but ........

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 09:53 PM
No no it wasn't sarcasm! I remember their match at wimbledon.

:lol: ok sorry. Federer leads the head to head 6-3, winning the last 5 meetings. But after Kiefer just taking the 2nd set today, it means Kiefer has taken at least a set in the last 3 meetings, all those matches coming in the last couple of months. He was the only person to take a set off Fed at Wimbledon, 1 of only 2 players to take a set at Cincinnati, and the first player to do so at the US Open.

lucashg
09-06-2005, 09:56 PM
I presume that was an attempt at sarcasm. Kiefer is one of the few people who have managed to even take a set off Federer recently. And he may well be about to do so today.

Definitely not sarcasm. Kiefer just did it again. Federer doesn't seem to know where Kiefer's serve always goes, plus he's having the day of unforced errors on that forehand, just ugly to see. I still think he'll find a way to win like he did in Wimbledon and in Cincinnati.

You made a valid point there, adee-gee, but I don't think it's the only reason. I saw their match in Indian Wells and Kiefer played rather well there, but Roger was just so much better, his game was really clicking on that day.

1sun
09-06-2005, 10:01 PM
roger always plays shite agaisnt kiefer but he mostly finds a way to win. i just hope he can today as well.

kundalini
09-06-2005, 10:05 PM
Looking at the stats Kiefer appears to be able to return Roger's first serve. He is winning the same % on first and second serves - just changed again but Federer is winning 62 - 65% on first serve and not the usual 80% - 85%.

Although Federer's serve is not fast by modern standards, a lot of players have trouble coping with the spin and the body serves he uses and end up failing to get the ball in play.

It looks like Kiefer can cope with Roger's first serve (which isn't going in that much either)

ToanNguyen
09-06-2005, 10:07 PM
I can only hope that Roger will find a way today.
Don't lose this to Kiwi.

Jimnik
09-06-2005, 10:09 PM
I think Roger struggles against players with strong backhands. Safin, Gasquet, Nalbandian, Kiefer and Hrbaty all hit an equal number of winners on both backhand and forehand wings.

LLeytonRules
09-06-2005, 10:15 PM
I think Fed will lose this match if he is not careful, u need to find a way, u cant always be lucky!

tennischick
09-06-2005, 10:17 PM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)

Skyward
09-06-2005, 10:25 PM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent.

I guess crowd in Houston was full of Swiss citizens. :eek:

Jimnik
09-06-2005, 10:26 PM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)
When has he ever had a favourable crowd?

tennischick
09-06-2005, 10:27 PM
I guess crowd in Houston was filled with Swiss citizens. :eek:
i wasn't in Hosuton and don't understand your point. i'm just commenting on what i perceived. i'm not saying that i am right. it's just my opinion.

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 10:27 PM
When has he ever had a favourable crowd?

Basel ;)

Shabazza
09-06-2005, 10:28 PM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)
I don't think he was angry during the Santoro match :shrug:
and the crowd isn't really rooting for Kiefer in this match ;)

Jimnik
09-06-2005, 10:29 PM
Basel ;)
Yes, and Gstaad.

tennischick
09-06-2005, 10:31 PM
When has he ever had a favourable crowd?
he has had fairer crowds. but New Yorkers tend to root for the underdog (which this year means against Federer). i didn't get the sense that he wasn't loved. it was more like "we know he's gonna win so let's root for the other guy so that we get a good match". and i think that that got under Roger's skin.

and please before you turn my point into a grand felony, i love Federer as much as the next person. i just think he needs to be careful about getting too ego-involved when dealing with a New York crowd.

oneandonlyhsn
09-06-2005, 10:31 PM
I presume that was an attempt at sarcasm. Kiefer is one of the few people who have managed to even take a set off Federer recently. And he may well be about to do so today.

Apparently they practise a lot together so therefore Kiwi does know Rogis weaknesses and strength quite well :D

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 10:31 PM
Yes, and Gstaad.

Indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic, its clearly the best way to trouble. I expect Nalbandian to toss the ball up to the moon when he plays him in the QF :o

Skyward
09-06-2005, 10:32 PM
i wasn't in Hosuton and don't understand your point. i'm just commenting on what i perceived. i'm not saying that i am right. it's just my opinion.

My point is that he handled pro Agassi/Roddick crowd very well in Houston. Why should he have problems with the NY crowd?

tennischick
09-06-2005, 10:36 PM
My point is that he handled pro Agassi/Roddick crowd very well in Houston. Why should he have problems with the NY crowd?
New Yorkers are different. i should know -- i am one. i think that New Yorkers are a tad more in-your-face. they were not rooting against Federer in any personal sense -- they just want to see a good match.

disturb3d
09-06-2005, 10:40 PM
Roger's backhand is purely defensive. It can't create power.
The only time it makes winners is when he reflects the opponents pace.

Whats the deal with Nalb/Sangui?

Billy Moonshine
09-06-2005, 11:17 PM
i love Federer as much as the next person

Not everyone loves Federer! :)

gravity
09-06-2005, 11:19 PM
Indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic, its clearly the best way to trouble. I expect Nalbandian to toss the ball up to the moon when he plays him in the QF :o

David has enough problems with his serve without experimenting with this ruthless gameplan. :p

tennischick
09-06-2005, 11:20 PM
Not everyone loves Federer! :)
that's their problem, not mine :p

mickymouse
09-06-2005, 11:21 PM
he has had fairer crowds. but New Yorkers tend to root for the underdog (which this year means against Federer). i didn't get the sense that he wasn't loved. it was more like "we know he's gonna win so let's root for the other guy so that we get a good match". and i think that that got under Roger's skin.

and please before you turn my point into a grand felony, i love Federer as much as the next person. i just think he needs to be careful about getting too ego-involved when dealing with a New York crowd.

I think it's understandable for the US crowd to root for the underdog since Federer isn't American. Any paying spectator will rather see a nail-biting 5 setter than a complete blowout within an hour. I remember last year, at the USO finals, they were all rooting for Hewitt too when he was trailing.

mickymouse
09-06-2005, 11:23 PM
Indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic, its clearly the best way to trouble. I expect Nalbandian to toss the ball up to the moon when he plays him in the QF :o

Don't forget that there's a hugh disparity in serving speed between Kiefer and Nalbandian.

Billy Moonshine
09-06-2005, 11:26 PM
that's their problem, not mine :p

No, your problem is u make out everyone loves Fed when they don't. :p

tennischick
09-06-2005, 11:28 PM
No, your problem is u make out everyone loves Fed when they don't. :p
and for those who don't, all i can say is you dunno what your're missing :p

PamV
09-06-2005, 11:40 PM
While watching the Federer v Kiefer match something sprang to mind. It's not really relevant to today's match, as Kiefer hasn't really served well but anyway I thought I'd make the point....

Federer has been hugely comfortable again 99% of the players on the tour. Very few have been giving him any sorts of problems. However, 2 players that he appears to be slightly uncomfortable against are Hrbaty and Kiefer. Looking at their games, there isn't much there to suggest they should cause Federer any particularly large problems, they have rankings of 17 and 38 respectively certainly would suggest that the likes of Roddick and Hewitt should cause him more problems. However, there is something which Hrbaty and Kiefer possess, that very few other players on the tour possess......

An extremely high ball toss!

Anything to this? Maybe Federer just isn't able to anticipate where a serve is going with someone who tosses the ball so high, as he is with a serve like Roddick's.....just a thought ;)

That's an interesting point. Although Roger has only played Hrbaty twice (Cincinnati 2004, and Paris 2000) so it would be hard to draw a conclusion from that. We have already discussed that winning Toronto takes something out of a player going into Cincinnati. However, it does look like Roger reads Roddick's serve way better than Kiefer's.

PamV
09-06-2005, 11:41 PM
Don't forget that there's a hugh disparity in serving speed between Kiefer and Nalbandian.

That's true, but Nalbandian is probably more accurate with his ground game rally.

Billy Moonshine
09-06-2005, 11:54 PM
and for those who don't, all i can say is you dunno what your're missing :p

I know I'm missing a lot, but I just find it so hard to like him! :silly:
It's stupid really but I suppose I never really like the number one player whoever it is. Even if one of my faves got to the top I'd get sick of them. I wonder if Fed has lost any fans because of his current dominating ways?

adee-gee
09-06-2005, 11:55 PM
That's an interesting point. Although Roger has only played Hrbaty twice (Cincinnati 2004, and Paris 2000) so it would be hard to draw a conclusion from that. We have already discussed that winning Toronto takes something out of a player going into Cincinnati. However, it does look like Roger reads Roddick's serve way better than Kiefer's.

Part of the reason why I made the point is that there is absolutely no reason why Hrbaty or Kiefer should be able to get close to Federer. Federer is taking apart players who are a lot better than these 2, but it appears he struggles for some reason. I thought it might be down to the very high ball toss, I'm only speculating to be honest. I did notice Federer also lost to Karol Kucera, although it was 5 years ago.

1sun
09-06-2005, 11:58 PM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)
i dont totaly agree with this but to a point i do.
basicaly every match roger plays(apart from dc,home) the crowd root against him. he has played in many rowdy crowds but still wins.
but i have noticed that he is not as comfortable at the us open than other tournys. you can tell the difference between wimbledon and the open. he seems so much more comfortable at wimbledon.

PamV
09-07-2005, 12:00 AM
Part of the reason why I made the point is that there is absolutely no reason why Hrbaty or Kiefer should be able to get close to Federer. Federer is taking apart players who are a lot better than these 2, but it appears he struggles for some reason. I thought it might be down to the very high ball toss, I'm only speculating to be honest. I did notice Federer also lost to Karol Kucera, although it was 5 years ago.

It doesn't seem like Kiefer plays with a rythym. He scrambles around a lot and that just makes him a tough player. Plus he can serve up in the 130's at times.

nobama
09-07-2005, 12:02 AM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)In what way do you think Roger has a huge ego? That he doesn't think the crowd might be rooting against him (or more likely for more tennis), and for his opponent? In the Santoro match Roger said that it was because of Fabrice, NOT him that the match was so great. And somoene said during Roger's on-court interview today as Kiefer was walking off court, he shouted out his name so Kiefer would stop and the crowd could acknowledge him. I don't see anything arrogant about that.

PamV
09-07-2005, 12:05 AM
When has he ever had a favourable crowd?

They loved him in Cincinnati. They loved him in Houston. I think he gets lots of support every where. For that matter movies stars and past tennis legends even come to his matches.

Roger is too mentally tough to be affected by the crowds. To suggest that he can only play well if the crowds are on his side is crazy. Kiefer gave him a tough match at Wimbledon also......it's just the way their gtames match up.

PamV
09-07-2005, 12:08 AM
In what way do you think Roger has a huge ego? That he doesn't think the crowd might be rooting against him (or more likely for more tennis), and for his opponent? In the Santoro match Roger said that it was because of Fabrice, NOT him that the match was so great. And somoene said during Roger's on-court interview today as Kiefer was walking off court, he shouted out his name so Kiefer would stop and the crowd could acknowledge him. I don't see anything arrogant about that.

I think that people tend to read their own feelings into this. Like if a person would find it hard to play when the crowd cheers an opponent they assume Roger is going to feel that way too. However, Roger is a professional he's not going to fall appart based on what the crowd does or doesn't do.

Flibbertigibbet
09-07-2005, 12:11 AM
Interesting observation. Perhaps it's a combination of factors: a higher ball toss, a solid backhand, a varied ground game, the ability to disrupt Federer's rhythm...

Neely
09-07-2005, 12:22 AM
and the crowd isn't really rooting for Kiefer in this match ;)
It was pretty equal. Most people want entertainment and because Federer can't anymore joke around like against Santoro many root for the underdog because that's the only possible way it becomes interesting and competetive. And furthermore, I'm sure some also acknowledged and saw that Kiefer also has a great game with good shots and that he can play tennis as well.

Shabazza
09-07-2005, 12:51 AM
It was pretty equal. Most people want entertainment and because Federer can't anymore joke around like against Santoro many root for the underdog because that's the only possible way it becomes interesting and competetive. And furthermore, I'm sure some also acknowledged and saw that Kiefer also has a great game with good shots and that he can play tennis as well.
maybe I said it wrong, I meant Kiefer didn't get more cheering than Roger today, except on his great winners, e.g. the running fh pass :eek: or some of his volley stops :cool:

Federerhingis
09-07-2005, 12:52 AM
It doesn't seem like Kiefer plays with a rythym. He scrambles around a lot and that just makes him a tough player. Plus he can serve up in the 130's at times.

Yeah, its really hard to get into a rhythm with Kiefer, especially a player like Roger who thrives on getting his rhythm going to win matches easily. Its really a combination of all the things that have been mentioned so far, he struggles against players who have really good backhands and dont give him any rhythm like Kiefer and especially Nalbandian. Kiefers serve is hard to read and he avged probably around 129 on his first serve, so its no choppy serve. On the other hand Kiefer was getting good looks at Federers and really going after his 2nd serve. A few other components of Kiefers entourage which seem to catch Federer off guard are his craftiness and flashiness at net, he's got very sweet hands and does well when coming to net. Yes he can take his eyes off of the ball ocassionally and miss the easiest of swinging volleys and overheads, however hes very solid up at net.

Nalbandian too has very good hands and quite soft ones at net, his lobs arent too shabby either, and his all court game with the killer backhand give Federer all sorts of issues. Most importantly Nalbandian is one of the best returners of serve, he is so consistent off of this shot, its no surprise hes rattled Federer and can handle the Roddick cannon serve.

federer express
09-07-2005, 01:13 AM
Indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic, its clearly the best way to trouble. I expect Nalbandian to toss the ball up to the moon when he plays him in the QF :o

if nalbandian the joker beats sanguinetti even

federer express
09-07-2005, 01:43 AM
but back to topic...

kiefer has lost his last 5 to federer. no huge problems there. of course the matches are sometimes competitive because kiefer has a very complete game when his head is screwed on.

hrbaty has a winning 2-0 record against him. but would fully expect federer to win the next 7 or 8 matches were they to meet that many times. one of hrbaty's wins was in 2000, which was pre federer of today's standard. his other win which he deserves credit for was in cincinatti where federer had not won a match until this year. that is not to take anything away from the win, but i think it's too soon to suggest that hrbaty will be a problem player for federer.

otherwise, basically good players with weapons will be able to hurt him. gasquet and safin have backhands to die for and nadal has a forehand about which you can say the same. all three players also have a lot more to their games, the key being no major major weaknesses. (the nadal backhand and serve have improved enough this year to no longer be classified as such ).

PamV
09-07-2005, 01:49 AM
Yeah, its really hard to get into a rhythm with Kiefer, especially a player like Roger who thrives on getting his rhythm going to win matches easily. Its really a combination of all the things that have been mentioned so far, he struggles against players who have really good backhands and dont give him any rhythm like Kiefer and especially Nalbandian.

Basically Federer has not had an easy draw here because he's gotten all the pesky types that bother him by running down every ball and giving him no rhythm. He does much better agaisnt big serving power hitters. Now he's likely to face Nalbandian who is going to be similar to Kiefer.

It's been a long time since we've seen them play. The last two times Roger dominated Nalbandian by changing some tactic. What did he do? I was trying to remember if Roger just didn't give Nalbandian any pace to play off of.

nobama
09-07-2005, 01:53 AM
Basically Federer has not had an easy draw here because he's gotten all the pesky types that bother him by running down every ball and giving him no rhythm. He does much better agaisnt big serving power hitters. Now he's likely to face Nalbandian who is going to be similar to Kiefer.

It's been a long time since we've seen them play. The last two times Roger dominated Nalbandian by changing some tactic. What did he do? I was trying to remember if Roger just didn't give Nalbandian any pace to play off of.We don't know that his next opponent will be Nalbandian. But if it is and he plays like his is playing tonight, then no worries. ;)

wcr
09-07-2005, 02:39 AM
hrbaty has a winning 2-0 record against him. but would fully expect federer to win the next 7 or 8 matches were they to meet that many times. one of hrbaty's wins was in 2000, which was pre federer of today's standard. his other win which he deserves credit for was in cincinatti where federer had not won a match until this year. that is not to take anything away from the win, but i think it's too soon to suggest that hrbaty will be a problem player for federer.

Federer's Cincy loss to Hrbaty probably has less to do with Hrbaty and/or Cincy and more to do with the fact that the guy rattled off 4 titles in 5 weeks and was exhausted. Halle. Wimbledon two weeks later. Gstaad one week later. Toronto 2 weeks later. That's a lot of globe trotting and hardware for any mere mortal in such a short span of time.

wcr
09-07-2005, 02:44 AM
It doesn't seem like Kiefer plays with a rythym. He scrambles around a lot and that just makes him a tough player. Plus he can serve up in the 130's at times.


He drives me nuts just watching him. :) Seriously, I saw the USO 2002 first round match against Safin when they brought a pair of wheelchairs oncourt to help both players off. Both guys walked off unaided but man oh man, did they both have a bad case of cramps in the 5th set. Safin prevailed.

nkhera1
09-07-2005, 04:43 AM
Basically Federer has not had an easy draw here because he's gotten all the pesky types that bother him by running down every ball and giving him no rhythm. He does much better agaisnt big serving power hitters. Now he's likely to face Nalbandian who is going to be similar to Kiefer.

It's been a long time since we've seen them play. The last two times Roger dominated Nalbandian by changing some tactic. What did he do? I was trying to remember if Roger just didn't give Nalbandian any pace to play off of.

He does better against power hitters because he can pick them apart on the groundstrokes which is harder to do against players that don't have a good serve because they usually have better groundgames.

gb1205
09-07-2005, 04:44 AM
Nice observation! You may be onto something.

We had a guy on my college team whose rock threw people off big time. Most players will rock three times in thier serve prep; on the third rock, the returner would make one step forward and split step for the retrun. This guy would rock about 5 or 6 times and it would REALLY screw up your timing. He never altered it, but it destroyed your timing. Little things can mean a lot in your timing, especially at the mach4 pro-level.

RogiFan88
09-07-2005, 04:58 AM
having just come back from seeing him live, i think that Roger has a huge ego and that he cannot handle it when the crowds root for his opponent. that is the only weakness in his armor that i detected. any opponent that manages to get the crowd as much into supporting him as Santoro did has a chance of beating Roger. he gets really angry and does not handle it well.

and i say this with much love bec otherwise he is perfect. ;)

same w Rafa I noticed

RogiFan88
09-07-2005, 05:03 AM
Rogi knows to expect the crowd will cheer for the underdog -- it IS NYC after all.

megadeth
09-07-2005, 05:59 AM
considering that kiefer and nalby has a game that can give fed some trouble.

someone even said in this thread that they have all around games.

makes you wonder why they aren't top 10 players...

adee-gee
09-07-2005, 05:38 PM
considering that kiefer and nalby has a game that can give fed some trouble.

someone even said in this thread that they have all around games.

makes you wonder why they aren't top 10 players...

Not strong enough mentally.