Safin and Roddick: What's the difference why only one has the best bet against fed? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Safin and Roddick: What's the difference why only one has the best bet against fed?

megadeth
08-28-2005, 11:45 PM
Safin and Roddick:

both have booming serves, powerful ground strokes, great court coverage, yet safin was deemed to have the best chance against fedex if his head is straight, that s.

so what does roddick doesn't have that safin does?

discuss....

federer express
08-28-2005, 11:47 PM
safin has...

backhand
better returns
less fear

Lisbeth
08-28-2005, 11:58 PM
Safin at his best is probably the most talented player on tour - possibly even better than Federer. He has a very complete game as well as power. Roddick is immeasurably more consistent but just doesn't have the utter brilliance Safin can produce once in a while.

I think Safin's inconsistency actually works for him in this case because Federer doesn't play him as often as say Roddick or Hewitt and therefore hasn't has the same chance to master his game :)

I also completely agree with the fear factor ;)

Tourmalante
08-29-2005, 12:00 AM
To put it simply: Safin has game and Andy.....doesn't. Safin has perhaps the most technically proficient backhand on tour and enormous power off of both wings which he can smartly channel when his head is straight. His serve is better than Andy's against the top echelon of players(top ten) because of its superior placement(Safin also has a tremendous kick second serve which is better than Andy's). Safin has natural net instincts and a very solid transition game which allows him to finish points much better. Even physically Safin is better. He is taller and has a longer reach than Andy while also being a faster and better mover. He is also stronger than Andy. We could write a paper on all the things that make Marat better but I am too lazy to go on.

Sjengster
08-29-2005, 12:01 AM
Safin is a better (and more aggressive) returner, his technique is more solid off both wings, he has a penetrating backhand, he has more compact strokes and plays closer to the baseline (both of which mean he takes away a lot of Federer's time), he has a flatter and therefore more penetrating hit, and judging by their AO match this year he knows when to come into the net at the right moment behind a quality approach shot.

That said, Federer's record against him is still a very favourable one; I don't want to sound dismissive of a guy as talented as Safin, but one win from matchpoint down where his fighting qualities, more than his superb tennis, got him over the line doesn't necessarily prove that he has the ability to beat Federer on a consistent basis. And as regards less fear, the fact that it took him seven matchpoints and two breaks of the Federer serve to finally win that SF match, having blown a 5-2 lead in the decider (plus a number of tight errors on his setpoint chances at the TMC last year), shows that he feels the pressure of facing Federer just as much as Roddick.

El Legenda
08-29-2005, 12:04 AM
Roddick sucks :)

federer express
08-29-2005, 12:05 AM
Safin is a better (and more aggressive) returner, his technique is more solid off both wings, he has a penetrating backhand, he has more compact strokes and plays closer to the baseline (both of which mean he takes away a lot of Federer's time), he has a flatter and therefore more penetrating hit, and judging by their AO match this year he knows when to come into the net at the right moment behind a quality approach shot.

That said, Federer's record against him is still a very favourable one; I don't want to sound dismissive of a guy as talented as Safin, but one win from matchpoint down where his fighting qualities, more than his superb tennis, got him over the line doesn't necessarily prove that he has the ability to beat Federer on a consistent basis. And as regards less fear, the fact that it took him seven matchpoints and two breaks of the Federer serve to finally win that SF match, having blown a 5-2 lead in the decider (plus a number of tight errors on his setpoint chances at the TMC last year), shows that he feels the pressure of facing Federer just as much as Roddick.

maybe. but he still won. having watched it, i think their match at the end of year masters in 2004 gave him the belief that he could compete with federer. further evidence of this is the tough fight he put up against federer at halle this year. i honestly think safin backs himself against anyone when he is in the mood. deep down, roddick would never back himself against federer. there is evidence of that in his interviews everytime he loses to him. in my opinion....

Sjengster
08-29-2005, 12:10 AM
Oh yes, I'm not questioning his fight and determination - I would say the biggest thing that won him the AO match was not any particular tactic on the court, but perseverance, even when he was a game away from defeat in the fourth set, then down in the TB and Federer was very close to putting the match away. He stuck with him the whole time, kept on putting doubts into his mind with massive groundies, and got his due reward. I'm just saying there was a certain amount of fear there, it doesn't necessarily have to translate into a loss of course.

Roddick is still yet to win that really big match against Federer (although the Montreal victory was fairly big, considering it denied Federer the no. 1 spot and gave Roddick the added confidence to go on a 19-match winning streak in the big events). I would say that seeing your game constantly proving inadequate and being outplayed every time you meet isn't going to do wonders for your self-belief against another player.

Sjengster
08-29-2005, 12:10 AM
Roddick sucks :)

You wouldn't say he was the suckiest player who ever sucked in the history of suckiness, would you?

federer express
08-29-2005, 12:14 AM
I would say that seeing your game constantly proving inadequate and being outplayed every time you meet isn't going to do wonders for your self-belief against another player.

yes! we have all experienced the same thing against someone at something. i play somebody at american pool. this guy almost always beats me. when we play i feel confident and think i can win but i dont expect to win. thats the key thing i think. by his own admission, federer expects to win every match he plays. i'm not sure anyone out there at the moment expects to beat federer, except maybe nadal on clay...

megadeth
08-29-2005, 12:16 AM
great points.

it makes me feel bad for safin to not reaching his full potential due to his lack of discipline. we would be treated to a agassi-sampras like rivalry with him and fed had he only kept his head straight consistently.

i think to put it simply, safin can dictate points better than andy. andy, despite his power, is more of being reactive on court, grinding it out, while safin is proactive.

amierin
08-29-2005, 12:17 AM
I think when Safin is healthy and his head is in the game he can beat anyone, Fed included. He's already pulled out so we won't see him. I hope he takes the time and comes back healthy and rested in January.

Jimena
08-29-2005, 12:36 AM
I agree with most in saying that Safin is more naturally talented than Roddick. But Roddick leads their h2h, and has beaten Safin the last three times they played. You guys have to give Roddick credit for something at some point.

I'm not a Roddick fan but I sometimes get tired of how much people dismiss him here. He's not as talented as Safin, but there's a lot to be said for being consistent rather than showing flashes of brilliance while underachieving for the better part of a tennis career.

And for the record, I like Marat.

1sun
08-29-2005, 12:39 AM
safin is overated and isnt as great as people make him out to be. for sure he is the best bet against federer, but no one can live with federer when he is at his best.
safin is and always will be a waste of talent

federer express
08-29-2005, 12:42 AM
safin is overated and isnt as great as people make him out to be. for sure he is the best bet against federer, but no one can live with federer when he is at his best.
safin is and always will be a waste of talent

harsh words when describing a man at the top of the game with 2 slams already...

megadeth
08-29-2005, 12:55 AM
those harsh words are justifiable. safin could achieve more if he wanted to. too bad he's wasting it. his talent should've been given to someone else more determined to maximize his potential. (e.g. roddick)

federer express
08-29-2005, 12:58 AM
those harsh words are justifiable. safin could achieve more if he wanted to. too bad he's wasting it. his talent should've been given to someone else more determined to maximize his potential. (e.g. roddick)

you dont think he wants to achieve more? yeah i'm sure he loves the bad losses...

megadeth
08-29-2005, 01:05 AM
i don't think he really cares. remember the AO final against Johannson? as long as he earns enough to sustain his bar tabs and partying, that's enough for him...

NYCtennisfan
08-29-2005, 01:06 AM
safin has...

backhand
better returns
less fear

Nothing more needs to be said. Roddick cannot control the points from the back of the court with only a FH. Roddick cannot make a dent (usually) on any Fed service game.

BTW, Federer also leads Safin in the H-2-H by a large margin.

federer express
08-29-2005, 01:06 AM
i don't think he really cares. remember the AO final against Johannson? as long as he earns enough to sustain his bar tabs and partying, that's enough for him...

:bs:

megadeth
08-29-2005, 01:12 AM
:bs:

that's how many people perceive him to be so it can't be bullshit. if he wants to prove it otherwise, he'd better show it with results...

the guy can win 5-10 titles a year, instead he's content with 1 or only 2 titles (usually madrid and paris)...

federer express
08-29-2005, 01:19 AM
that's how many people perceive him to be so it can't be bullshit.

oh of course...that proves it

megadeth
08-29-2005, 01:32 AM
oh of course...that proves it
so how else can you prove your BS theory with the right data? or disprove my statement rather than just saying bullshit? which to me, seems like you are just a fan sour graping and can't find any decent justifications to disprove me...

it's pretty obvious from his results that his passion to get to the top is not as strong. how else can you explain all those early exits this year and the years after his first USO in 2000? and don't give me that injury excuse because he most certainly can still win even with it. (halle, the early rounds of cincy, etc)

federer express
08-29-2005, 01:47 AM
have you ever been the best or in the top 10 or 100 or 1000 or 100,000,000 for that matter at anything? you cannot get to the top of any field without an incredible desire....no matter how much talent you have. it cannot be done. besides, everyone has a different mental make-up. what works for some players would not work for others. so because safin does not meet your criteria or standards for effort, that presumably means he doesn't care. :rolleyes: and how many training sessions have you seen safin put in? how many times have you seen him work out in the gym? how many hours of skipping rope have you seen him do? i'm guessing as you are an expert on his motivation and desire that you have done all of these things. because if not, i would be inclined to say :bs: to your every statement in this matter.

tangerine_dream
08-29-2005, 02:01 AM
federer_express, why did you even take the bait? This thread is designed to bash on the players, not discuss them.

megadeth
08-29-2005, 02:05 AM
have you ever been the best or in the top 10 or 100 or 1000 or 100,000,000 for that matter at anything? you cannot get to the top of any field without an incredible desire....no matter how much talent you have. it cannot be done. besides, everyone has a different mental make-up. what works for some players would not work for others. so because safin does not meet your criteria or standards for effort, that presumably means he doesn't care. :rolleyes: and how many training sessions have you seen safin put in? how many times have you seen him work out in the gym? how many hours of skipping rope have you seen him do? i'm guessing as you are an expert on his motivation and desire that you have done all of these things. because if not, i would be inclined to say :bs: to your every statement in this matter.

First of all, in the atp, all you need to do to stay in the top 10 is to usually just win 1 title or consistently just make it to the semis at least.. So you can still get in that area even if you had a mediocre year. Considering safin’s talent, that’s too bad.

And it’s just not my criteria. It’s a generalization that if you train hard and focus enough given that talent, you’d win more.

Like I said, when he lost in the final of AO against TJ, he just shrugged it off like it was nothing, partied hard right after because he earned a big pay check still, when he should’ve won the match.

I’m not his trainer so I wouldn’t care less how much time he spends in the gym. The results will speak for itself, which quite frankly, is a coach’s nightmare and frustration.

Maybe, you, on the other hand, have counted how many repititions of skip rope he’d done, or how many laps he ran since you seem like a hell bent fan.

and one more thing, saying that a totally inconsistent player who hasn't lived up to his potential is "on top of his game" from your earlier posts, well, that i would say is bull shit...

federer express
08-29-2005, 02:11 AM
saying that a totally inconsistent player who hasn't lived up to his potential is "on top of his game" from your earlier posts, well, that i would say is bull shit...

at the top of the game is actually what i said, not on top of his game. but congratulations on almost being able to read. and who gives a shit if he partied after reaching the final of an australian open?! you sound like the crazed fan here, begrudging somebody relaxing and enjoying himself because he didn't win a match you think he should have won.

anyway, was bored of your posts after the first one. am now :zzz: as i read them, so am going to stop.

megadeth
08-29-2005, 02:26 AM
at the top of the game is actually what i said, not on top of his game. but congratulations on almost being able to read. and who gives a shit if he partied after reaching the final of an australian open?! you sound like the crazed fan here, begrudging somebody relaxing and enjoying himself because he didn't win a match you think he should have won.

anyway, was bored of your posts after the first one. am now :zzz: as i read them, so am going to stop.

sure, whatever dude, you're the one who started getting this discussion off tangent anyway... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i wasn't begrudging, i was making a point (which was this thread's purpose in the first place), which you were obviously not open enough to accept.

Skyward
08-29-2005, 02:55 AM
Safin has Federer's former coach, Roddick doesn't. ;)

sanpo
08-29-2005, 04:28 AM
Alot argue that Marat is more talented than Fed. Now I do think that tennis-wise they could be as talented as the other player. But we have to remember that mental tenacity and stability is as much talent as a powerful forehand or a drilling serve. Roger during his loomy years had talent but didn't have much of the mental rotundness he has now acquired/developed. So with that, I think Marat would always be less talented than Roger , just because tennis isn't all about strokes and is mental as much as physical.

There are many players that are overlooked that are as talented as Marat. (I THINK) Feliciano Lopez, Berdych, even Muller. And yes I have seen all of them play.

oneandonlyhsn
08-29-2005, 04:58 AM
Safin has Federer's former coach, Roddick doesn't. ;)

Doesnt matter even if Roddick had Lundgren the outcome would be the same. Safin has TMG Roddick works hard, thats the difference

liptea
08-29-2005, 06:56 AM
First of all, in the atp, all you need to do to stay in the top 10 is to usually just win 1 title or consistently just make it to the semis at least.. So you can still get in that area even if you had a mediocre year.

Um, leave Carlos Moya out of this.

Lisbeth
08-29-2005, 07:02 AM
Alot argue that Marat is more talented than Fed. Now I do think that tennis-wise they could be as talented as the other player. But we have to remember that mental tenacity and stability is as much talent as a powerful forehand or a drilling serve.

You're not going to get any Hewitt fan disagreeing with this observation ;)

I think the point is Safin, when "on" and focused, has every shot in the book. Roddick doesn't, but I give him full credit for being "on" more often :)

Sjengster
08-29-2005, 09:33 PM
Alot argue that Marat is more talented than Fed. Now I do think that tennis-wise they could be as talented as the other player. But we have to remember that mental tenacity and stability is as much talent as a powerful forehand or a drilling serve. Roger during his loomy years had talent but didn't have much of the mental rotundness he has now acquired/developed. So with that, I think Marat would always be less talented than Roger , just because tennis isn't all about strokes and is mental as much as physical.

There are many players that are overlooked that are as talented as Marat. (I THINK) Feliciano Lopez, Berdych, even Muller. And yes I have seen all of them play.

Lopez as talented as Safin :haha: I mean, I can take or leave LaLo, unlike Deivid, but I can tell that he's not in the same league talent-wise. Berdych and Muller, I haven't seen enough of them to make any definitive judgement, but they're both flat hitting baseliners like Safin although Muller has the lefty advantage.

I don't think Safin is more talented than Federer, to be honest. That sounds lofty and dismissive, but at heart his game is fairly simple and doesn't involve the variation of pace or angle that Federer's does. He does have great touch, despite his assertions to the contrary, but I don't think he needs to use it as often because his groundstrokes are so bludgeoning. And if he really did have the perfect physique for tennis, he would a) be better on grass and b) not get injured as much as he has been throughout his career. Both these problems are in part a consequence of his height and build.

Damita
08-29-2005, 10:12 PM
i don't think he really cares. remember the AO final against Johannson? as long as he earns enough to sustain his bar tabs and partying, that's enough for him...
He did not take that final seriously i agree. But since then he's been repeating loads of times how much he was frustrated not being able to win more major titles. People keep telling him he should have won more of them already. And he knows it very well. Hence why when he hears that, it's even more painful because he knows it's true.

And since that final he could have won more titles if only he:
1) had not been injured for almost all year in 2003, and a few months already this year
2) had made the good choices in coaching. All his fans, and all tennis fans for that matter, could have told him ages ago that Golovanov would not help. Golovanov couldn't make his technique improve more, and he couldn't calm his temper. Which Peter Lundgren already managed to do in one year. Safin needed someone like him earlier. But Lundgren wasn't available. Surely he could have hire someone else, but maybe he just learns slowly :o :shrug:
the guy can win 5-10 titles a year, instead he's content with 1 or only 2 titles (usually madrid and paris)...he won Madrid last year only.


And now to answer this thread's title: talent.
(Roddick has the consistency. JesusFed has both)