Will Indian Wells be sold to China?? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Will Indian Wells be sold to China??

star
08-01-2005, 03:10 PM
This is a complicated story -- complicated by the death of McCormick, the insane debt load of the tournament, and now city politics and USTA politics.

Tennis investors: Make first move
Tourney must be refinanced, USTA on board, group says

Leighton Ginn
The Desert Sun
July 29, 2005

Magazine publishing magnate George Mackin, one of the partners in a investor syndicate formed to financially help keep the Pacific Life Open in Indian Wells, wants to emphasize his group's participation is not a slam dunk.
And neither is the participation of the United States Tennis Association.

In his first extensive interview about the Pacific Life Open, Mackin, a media business veteran and co-owner of Tennis magazine with Spin and Vibe magazine owner Bob Miller, said there is a series of events that need to come together for the deal to happen.

Mackin said it is crucial the city of Indian Wells and locally based PM Sports, which owns 50 percent of the international tennis tournament, come to an agreement soon on refinancing of the $39 million mortgage on the Indian Wells Tennis Garden.

Because of the $3.9 million debt service the tournament pays annually on the mortgage, the Pacific Life Open has lost money since the 2002 event.

PM Sports wants to refinance the loan from an 8 percent interest rate to 6 percent or lower. In order to refinance, the tournament needs the help of Indian Wells.

Once the refinancing is in place, PM Sports will need to get the board of the USTA to agree on helping in the financing the $24 million buyout of business partners International Management Group, which owns the other half of the tournament.

Mackin and Miller's group, The Tennis Company, will finance a large part of the buyout.

IMG wanted to accept an offer to move to China since March, but have agreed to let PM Sports put together a syndicate for a buyout.

Deal hinges on USTA

Mackin made it clear: Without the USTA, his syndicate will pull out of the deal.
And right now, Mackin said chances of the USTA getting involved is 50-50.

"It's all contingent on Indian Wells," Mackin said. "If Indian Wells can work out their pending deal with (PM Sports owners Raymond Moore and Charlie Pasarell), that is just a first step of keeping the event in the desert."

The council will meet on Thursday, but Moore said he doubts any decision would be made by then.

Tournament organizers have estimated that the Pacific Life Open has a $140 million impact on the Coachella Valley tourism industry each March.

City Councilman Rob Bernheimer said the next council meeting after that is on Sept. 15.

However, Bernheimer said the council would hold a special meeting if needed. Bernheimer wouldn't hazard to guess when a deal would be completed.

Bernheimer also emphasized Indian Wells is not holding up anything.

"I don't know if we can set a timetable of how long it will take," Bernheimer said. "It's their timetable, not our timetable. We've done everything we've been asked to meet their needs.

"The timetable is in their court. The city is doing nothing to delay a timetable."

Bernheimer said the urgency is coming from Cleveland-based sports and lifestyle marketing giant IMG, which has been anxious to get out of its partnership with PM Sports.

"They can do it quickly if they do it at the right price," Bernheimer said. "If (IMG) wants to get out quickly, they have to consider the price they set. That's sort of basic business."

Over the weekend at the USTA meetings in Charleston, S.C., the board of the White Plains, N.Y.-based tennis organization was presented with the idea of using some of its $150-million portfolio to invest in the tournament, the fifth largest in the world in terms of attendance.

Mackin wanted to emphasize it's too early to tell.

"This part I want to be crystal clear about. It was a little overstated about the (USTA)'s eagerness to invest," Mackin said. "They asked us, 'Would you do this without us?' I emphatically said 'No.' If the USTA doesn't come in, we won't, and the USTA board is not close.

"This is an uphill battle to get the board to endorse the investment. We're fighting the fight . If that happens, we come in with our investment."

City must make first move

The USTA, which is working on its U.S. Open Series of tournaments leading up to the U.S. Open on Aug. 29-Sept. 11, will not make any decisions on financing until its board meeting in October in San Antonio, Texas. Mackin said he hopes the city of Indian Wells will not wait that long.
"I think it's important Indian Wells understands this isn't even close and it will go nowhere without them," Mackin said. "If Indian Wells steps up and supports this at the level we need them to, not only will the tournament have a chance to get the USTA, but a chance to get a media company and a considerable list of strategic investor.

"We get the green light to go to the next step once Indian Wells steps on board. I think they have to do it sooner than later. It they wait until October, it becomes problematic. If it's resolved right away, we can go to the next step."

Moore said Indian Wells' next meeting is Thursday, but doubts they will get an answer by then. The next meeting will be Sept. 15.

"I don't think we will get a feeling one way or the other until September," Moore said.

However, Moore reiterated he is happy with the cooperation he's gotten from Indian Wells.

Mackin and Miller are co-owners of Tennis magazine, which has tennis great Chris Evert as the publisher and Pete Sampras as an investor.

Tennis magazine has been a sponsor of the Pacific Life Open the past three years.

Earlier this year, Mackin and Miller formed The Tennis Company.

"The vision of The Tennis Company is to make investments in tennis businesses that we felt we could add value to through our media assets," Mackin said.

Mackin also owns Custom Marketing Group, a custom marketing and publishing company serving tourism and travel.

Miller is an owner and CEO of Miller Publishing, which owns Vibe and Spin magazines.

"They bring expertise in media marketing and they own the largest tennis magazine in the world. That's a great partner to have," Moore said. "This still is a PM Sports management buyout.

"We're busy handling the parts. We hope finality comes sooner than later, and it will be a good result for the valley. That's what we're looking for."

star
08-01-2005, 03:12 PM
BIOS
George Mackin
Titles: Managing director of Custom Marketing Group, an integrated destination marketing company specializing in travel and tourism. Also a partner in “Tennis” magazine and president of The Tennis Company.
Other career notables: Served as West Coast Manager of Newsweek International from 1979-84. IN 1984, he founded Mackin Media, Inc., which grew to become the largest independently owned advertising sales representation firm in the U.S., with over $150 million in sales annually.
Tennis ties: In 2000, invested in Tennis Magazine. In addition to owning Tennis Magazine and Tennis.come, they produced SMASH Magazine, a youth tennis publication.
Robert L. Miller

TITLES: President and CEO of Miller Publishing Group, LLC (MPG), which owns publications such as Vibe and Spin, as well as Tennis magazine. Also the CEO of The Tennis Company.
OTHER CAREER NOTABLES: At 33, was the publisher of Sports Illustrated. Was also the executive vice president of Time, Inc., which oversaw People, Entertainment Weekly, Fortune, Time, Sports Illustrated, and Money.
In 1992, became the president and CEO of Time Inc. Ventures (TIV). During that time, his most successful launches were Martha Stewart Living and Vibe. In 1996, upon leaving Time, he purchased Vibe, and in partnership with Quincy Jones, created Vibe Ventures. In 1997, they bought Spin.
A look at the Pacific Life Open's efforts to keep the international tennis tournament in Indian Wells and the issues involved.

THE OFFER: An overseas investment group, believed to be from Shanghai, has made an offer to buy the tournament for $35-$70 million.
THE CONFLICT: International Management Group, which owns 50 percent of the Pacific Life Open, wants to take the deal because the tournament has been losing money since 2002.
PM Sports, which owns the other 50 percent, is determined to keep the event in Indian Wells, where owners Raymond Moore and Charlie Pasarell call the Coachella Valley home.Moore and Pasarell are trying to connect an investors syndicate with the city of Indian Wells to help them finance debt and keep the 5th largest tournament in the world in the desert.
THE REFINANCE PLAN: The Indian Wells Tennis Garden, a $77-million complex which houses the Pacific Life Open, has a $39 million mortgage with an interest rate at 8 percent. The tournament has to pay debt services of $3.9 million annually. The tournament wants to refinance and get an interest rate of 6 percent or lower, and needs help from the City of Indian Wells to help secure the loan.
THE TOURNAMENT: The Pacific Life Open is considered the fifth-largest tournament in the world, based on its attendance, with more than 280,000 fans during the 12-day run. It has a 96-player men's and women's main draw. Total prize money for the men was $2,974,600, and for the women, $2,100,000.
THE IMPACT: In 2001, the tournament had an economic impact study conducted by George Washington University, which said the tournament had a $100 million impact on the Coachella Valley. Tournament officials have taken the same formula and applied it to the growing attendance, estimating the impact is now at $140 million.
GENESIS OF THE PROBLEM: In 2000, the ATP signed a $1.2 billion deal with Swiss marketing firm ISL, which was going to handle the marketing of the tour's top level events, including Indian Wells. The Indian Wells Tennis Garden opened that same year. The deal guaranteed the tournament approximately $10 million a year. After the 2001 event, ISL went bankrupt, leaving Indian Wells with no sponsors. Three months after the settlement, the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks hit, which made it nearly impossible for the tournament to find sponsors. The tournament secured Pacific Life insurance company as the title sponsor, but have not been able to secure the kind of funding the ISL deal promised.
CHANGES AT IMG: Mark McCormack was the founder and owner of International Management Group, an international sports and lifestyle marketing and management firm. McCormack was a fan of tennis, and was willing to support the Indian Wells tournament, believing in its future. When McCormack died in 2003. In 2004, McCormack's family sold IMG to Ted Forstmann, who founded Forstmann, Little and Co. Forstmann is considered a pioneer of the leverage buyout, and his business philosophies differ from McCormack's.

tennischick
08-02-2005, 12:18 AM
the missing piece to this story: the impact of the Sisters' boycott.

cartmancop
08-02-2005, 12:37 AM
That would be kind of cool to have a really big tournament in China... Then Venus & Serena might play there:)

Rosa Luxembourg
08-02-2005, 01:01 AM
^ that didn't take long... the sisters blah-blah-blah

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 01:11 AM
I hope that it doesn't go to China.

For the player's sake as well as the fact that I want it to stay in the US.

I know that there's a lot of money in Asia, and a lot of new fans.

But the fact remains that the vast majority of players are from Europe, North America and South America.

Schedules rough enough as it is without the guys having to fly to Asia all the time.

Leo
08-02-2005, 02:32 AM
Asia deserves a TMS event but I really wish it's not Indian Wells, one of the nicest venues and one of my favorite tournaments during the entire year. Sell Miami, please.

Dirk
08-02-2005, 06:08 AM
There is no way players would go to China for one event then travel to Miami the next week. I just don't see it happening. Shame they got into such a bad deal. Attendance is way up and they are still in a huge hole. :sad: My ninja has made IW his home. :bigcry:

its.like.that
08-02-2005, 06:55 AM
It's true, I read it in Time the other day... Indian Wells is set to become a Chinese Territory, sort of like a new Hong Kong, except that this one will be leased to the Americans. :)

superpinkone37
08-02-2005, 08:47 AM
I have read about this in some of my local newspapers as well... for my own selfish reasons, I hope IW stays.

novanora
08-02-2005, 09:26 AM
I heard sth about it at early of this year. It said Shanghai would like to buy IW, and wants to keep having some big tourney after 3 years' TMC. But it's only a small piece of news, no more follow-up, so I took it as a rumor at that time. For selfish reasons, I hope IW moves. Of course, if it really does, then ATP had to change the tourney schedule a lot, as it's impossible for players to play two TMS in line at 2 different continents too far away from each other.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 09:31 AM
The thing is that IW and Miami are nothing TMS events, well not nothing as in points or money or even prestige. They don't lead to anything at all and are there for some reason just to give the Americans some more big tournaments.

Ok, the 3 TMS on clay lead to RG, Montreal/Toronto lead to the US Open and Madrid/Paris lead to the TMC, they are leading in to these major events.

They have to do something about the calendar anyway and what's the point of 10 day events? A 64 draw is enough and they are dreaming about a pseudo Slam.

One of the TMS should be moved to lead into the Aus Open, but that would mean a calendar restructurion, though it needs to happen anyway.

ClaycourtaZzZz.
08-02-2005, 11:58 AM
lol the have already the TMC

G O
08-02-2005, 12:03 PM
Guys, listen to me. China IS getting a TMS event period, end of story. Most likely IW. And it doesn't end there. China is working things out to host a slam. Yes a real one, that means number 5, but you didn't hear that from me. Anway that's a few years off.

No jokes this time.

G O
08-02-2005, 12:06 PM
They plan on taking over the world also.

Now GWH can hate two countries.

Joke this time.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 01:02 PM
Guys, listen to me. China IS getting a TMS event period, end of story. Most likely IW. And it doesn't end there. China is working things out to host a slam. Yes a real one, that means number 5, but you didn't hear that from me. Anway that's a few years off.

No jokes this time.
well like GWH said it should lead into the AO or else its a waste of space! I mean have the players trot around Australasia in the first weeks/months of the year then they can go back to Asis after US Open right?
A fifth slam is completely pointless, they should keep TMC.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 01:04 PM
well like GWH said it should lead into the AO or else its a waste of space! I mean have the players trot around Australasia in the first weeks/months of the year then they can go back to Asis after US Open right?
A fifth slam is completely pointless, they should keep TMC.

G O is just paranoid there won't be a 5th Slam anytime soon.

its.like.that
08-02-2005, 01:04 PM
They plan on taking over the world also.

Now GWH can hate two countries.

Joke this time.

:wavey:

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 01:57 PM
Asia deserves a TMS event but I really wish it's not Indian Wells, one of the nicest venues and one of my favorite tournaments during the entire year. Sell Miami, please.

Why does Asia deserves a TMS event?

How many Asian players are there in the pros? How long have they been supporting tennis?

Just because they can throw a lot of money around doesn't mean that they deserve anything.

As for throwing away Miami, why is it that anything that is popular with the latino players always put down? (Just like clay is always put down in favor of hardcourts). I really enjoyed Miami when I went this year - and as for fun things to do for the players and for the fans, I think that it definitely has it over the exciting nightlife that can be offered in China.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:02 PM
Why does Asia deserves a TMS event?


because a very large % of people who live in this earth live in asia!! :wavey:

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 03:03 PM
because a very large % of people who live in this earth live in asia!! :wavey:

There is still the attitude that tennis should only be played in Europe, North America and Australia, and no need to expand anywhere else.

silverwhite
08-02-2005, 03:06 PM
There is still the attitude that tennis should only be played in Europe, North America and Australia, and no need to expand anywhere else.

Couldn't have responded to that comment better myself.

NYCtennisfan
08-02-2005, 03:08 PM
It was only a matter of time before China got a big event. If it is not this, then it will be something else. The ATP and everyone else is dazzled by the money possibilities in China, just like the NBA and many other sports who know that a burgeoning emerging middle-class willing to spend new money on sporting events could be a really lucrative thing.

The schedule would have to be rearranged but it has been done before. I remember i the crazy old days of the early 80's when you would have a relatively big clay and relatively big hardcourt tournament in back-to-back weeks on two different continents. The schedule has come a long way since then.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:12 PM
There is still the attitude that tennis should only be played in Europe, North America and Australia, and no need to expand anywhere else.
ok perfect schedule for atp would be some tournies in aaustralia, a tournie in south africa and a masters series in china b4 AO which will be pushed back mid feb, three clay court masters is unfair so one of them should go to lighten the load. about indian Wells and Miami i'm still undesided what do you think?

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 03:17 PM
ok perfect schedule for atp would be some tournies in aaustralia, a tournie in south africa and a masters series in china b4 AO which will be pushed back mid feb, three clay court masters is unfair so one of them should go to lighten the load. about indian Wells and Miami i'm still undesided what do you think?

It's has been talked about before already and it's not the perfect schedule. The season needs to be reduced for one. If they play in SA it will have to be the first tournament of the year and a TMS should be before the AO and Wells should be the one moved. Then there is DC to fit in as well, the season will be cut anyway so there are too many hardcourt tournaments and clay ones as well.

Absolutely no way there should be less of the clay masters, there are 3 and if this is to be done on balance, then they stay, just make them every 2nd week instead of back to back.

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 03:22 PM
There is still the attitude that tennis should only be played in Europe, North America and Australia, and no need to expand anywhere else.

As usual, GWH, you take what I say and total misunderstand.

I'm not saying that Europe, NA, and Australia s/b the only places that have tournaments.

But as for using the word "deserve", I don't think Asia "deserves" tennis tournaments just because they can throw money at the sport

For example, I think South America "deserves" larger tournaments and more support for their tournaments from both the tennis establishment and the players than Asia does. They have a large number of players in the ATP, and the sport is growing rapidly. Yet they don't have the money to throw at tennis so they are ignored.

And don't say that futbol is and always will be the only sport that counts in SA. Tennis is not the most popular sport on most continents - and never will be.

As for taking away tennis tournaments, why is it always the States that people here feel should have tournaments taken away? Europe has the vast majority of tournaments - in February, the entire spring season, grass season, for clay players July is in Europe, and the entire fall season. Except for IW, Miami and the August tournaments, the States does not have a lot of tournaments considering the number of players, fans, and financial support we give to the game.

silverwhite
08-02-2005, 03:22 PM
We need a grass TMS too. ;) Maybe that's where the other TMS should go, if one is put before AO.

silverwhite
08-02-2005, 03:26 PM
As usual, GWH, you take what I say and total misunderstand.

I'm not saying that Europe, NA, and Australia s/b the only places that have tournaments.

But as for using the word "deserve", I don't think Asia "deserves" tennis tournaments just because they can throw money at the sport

For example, I think South America "deserves" larger tournaments and more support for their tournaments from both the tennis establishment and the players than Asia does. They have a large number of players in the ATP, and the sport is growing rapidly. Yet they don't have the money to throw at tennis so they are ignored.

And don't say that futbol is and always will be the only sport that counts in SA. Tennis is not the most popular sport on most continents - and never will be.

As for taking away tennis tournaments, why is it always the States that people here feel should have tournaments taken away? Europe has the vast majority of tournaments - in February, the entire spring season, grass season, for clay players July is in Europe, and the entire fall season. Except for IW, Miami and the August tournaments, the States does not have a lot of tournaments considering the number of players, fans, and financial support we give to the game.

You're using double standards for the USA and Asia.

Asia can pump in big money, but does not necessarily deserve tournaments. USA can pump in big money and therefore deserves many tournaments. Right.

You say that the players produced by the continent/country should be a deciding factor. Tennis in the US is declining while tennis in Asia is on the rise. As much as I support American players like the Williams sisters, you cannot deny that once players like Davenport, Agassi, the Williams sisters and Capriati are gone, there won't be many American players left to fill their shoes.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 03:32 PM
As usual, GWH, you take what I say and total misunderstand.

I'm not saying that Europe, NA, and Australia s/b the only places that have tournaments.

Ahem! that would be incorrect. What I actually said was a generic statement, which includes many individuals and organisations, the media are part of this, the attitude does and still will go on in those places to an extent, whether people like it or not. Just like the Wimbledon propaganda and other myths as well.

But as for using the word "deserve", I don't think Asia "deserves" tennis tournaments just because they can throw money at the sport

For example, I think South America "deserves" larger tournaments and more support for their tournaments from both the tennis establishment and the players than Asia does. They have a large number of players in the ATP, and the sport is growing rapidly. Yet they don't have the money to throw at tennis so they are ignored.

Pro sport is a business and you know that this case. There are lots of people who deserve certain things, but in reality it doesn't happen. Tennis is an international sport and many people aren't aware of this, hence the generic statement made earlier.

They have a clay circuit in South America and it's a lot better where it's located now, then when it was before and they hardly had any tournaments, look at now, from where it was before.

As for taking away tennis tournaments, why is it always the States that people here feel should have tournaments taken away? Europe has the vast majority of tournaments - in February, the entire spring season, grass season, for clay players July is in Europe, and the entire fall season. Except for IW, Miami and the August tournaments, the States does not have a lot of tournaments considering the number of players, fans, and financial support we give to the game

US is one country, Europe has 57 there is a slight difference for a start.

There are tournaments after the AO up until Miami. There is one in Houston and the whole US Open series as well, that is a lot of tournaments for one country.

CooCooCachoo
08-02-2005, 03:41 PM
The USA has too many big events. I would like to see it move to South America or so.

Neely
08-02-2005, 03:44 PM
The USA has too many big events. I would like to see it move to South America or so.
Yes, that would be a good idea in theory :yeah: If I was in charge, I would more than gladly give South America the Hamburg clay Masters if Halle would turn into a grass Masters :)

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:45 PM
The USA has too many big events. I would like to see it move to South America or so.
thats all well and good but what about asia and Africa that have almost none!!

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:49 PM
Yes, that would be a good idea in theory :yeah: If I was in charge, I would more than gladly give South America the Hamburg clay Masters if Halle would turn into a grass Masters :)
so that in the middle of the European clay season the y jet off to South America?? :confused:

NYCtennisfan
08-02-2005, 03:51 PM
It's all well and good to spread the tournaments around but I think that a lot of players will not like traveling more than they already do. This was a huge problem in the early 80's when you couldn't ever get a majority of the great players to play at any tournament outside of Wimbledon, the US OPen and also RG. I think the new schedule has fixed a lot of things using centralized points where most of the action is based around. If anything is going to be restructured, there needs to be careful attention paid to this. I don't want to go back to the old days when none of the top players were ever together.

Neely
08-02-2005, 03:53 PM
thats all well and good but what about asia and Africa that have almost none!!
Good again, but hosting an event in Africa is only possible in the Northern countries or in South Africa which limits the possibilities again.

Due to economical reasons, standard of living, cultural interests, and ..., and... you can hardly go to Zaire, Kenia, Nigeria, Ethiopia and open an ATP event there. It wouldn't make much sense if there would be a glamourous tennis event and outside around the corner of it there would be Third of Fourth World poverty of the worst kind where the most basic things are missing to barely survive.

I wonder how many visitors would go there. I only see very limited possibilities on the continent of Africa.

CooCooCachoo
08-02-2005, 03:53 PM
thats all well and good but what about asia and Africa that have almost none!!

Africa is not a realistic option. Tennis is non-existent in almost all of the countries on the African continent. The only countries that could host a Grand Slam on that continent are Morocco and South Africa. Morocco has an event and I really don't see why they should have a Grand Slam. South Africa deserves an event, but its location is destroying its chances for having an event, because of jet lags.

I believe that big tennis countries should have the TMS/AMS events. There's no point in saying that it should go to an African country. China is a big tennis country on the women's side, but on the men's side it's not really developped. They have a big ATP event and some WTA events, plus the TMS Cup.

Now when you look at the South American continent. Many top players are from Latin America. And I am not talking about the ATP here; on the WTA Tour you have players like Gisela Dulko, Maria Vento-Kabchi, Paola Súarez, Fabiola Zuluaga all doing well. I think that having a TMS event for both the male and female players in South America's largest tennis country, Argentina, is a sensible thing to do.

Really, the USA don't need that many events.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 03:54 PM
It's all well and good to spread the tournaments around but I think that a lot of players will not like traveling more than they already do. This was a huge problem in the early 80's when you couldn't ever get a majority of the great players to play at any tournament outside of Wimbledon, the US OPen and also RG. I think the new schedule has fixed a lot of things using centralized points where most of the action is based around. If anything is going to be restructured, there needs to be careful attention paid to this. I don't want to go back to the old days when none of the top players were ever together.

It wouldn't be difficult if there was clear seasonal seperation between the surfaces.

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 03:55 PM
Silverwhite - I didn't only say that we had the financial backing. I also said that we had the players (a long history of players for decades and decades - not just looking at today) and fan support for the game. I'm not saying that precludes other regions from getting tennis tournaments - but I do take exception that Asia "deserves" tournaments. They "deserve" nothing - they just have the money to buy their way into the sport. Is it good for tennis? Yes, expanding the sport into the global market is good. Is it good for the players? No, their schedule is too long to begin with, and since the vast majority are from the US, Europe, and SA, they have enough long travel. And sad to see regions that have long supported tennis get screwed over because their tournaments will be moved.

GWH - yes, I agree with most of what you say. Tennis is a business. But that doesn't mean that I have to stand and cheer when I see a region able to buy their way into a sport as great as tennis. Or feel bad for an area such as South America that truely does "deserve" to have better support for their tournaments - yes, its better down there, but sad to see the player and tennis establishment support for these new tournaments in Asia when these same players never would get on a plane and go to SA because the money pot isn't as big.

As for the US is one country while the Europe has 57 countries. Obviously the US is one country, but its made up of 50 different states - and its kind of big. lol! To compare the US getting the same amount of tournaments as say a smaller country such as Monaco isn't fair. And while we have some small tournaments like Houston, they certainly don't get the top players like they do for many of the tournaments in Europe.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:56 PM
well if you have an austalasia/africa tour b4 AO then a south America/European clay court spell b4 RG, then an european grass court spell then Wimbledon, American hard court b4 US Open, Asian hard court, European indoor and then TMC.
Plus you'll be following the sun so it will be perpetual summer!! :)

Neely
08-02-2005, 03:57 PM
so that in the middle of the European clay season the y jet off to South America?? :confused:
1.) I was just speaking in theory
2.) The only place on the schedule I would see for such a South American tournament would be soon after the current Miami Masters while players are still in America and before they head over to Europe for the European clay events.

Experimentee
08-02-2005, 03:59 PM
I think it would be a good idea to move it to China. USA has too many tournaments and tennis in China is growing. If anyone remember the Masters Cup in Shanghai, thats what they are capable of, and they have even better more modern stadiums now. Its not necessary to have top players to have big events, just look at Canada.

If it moves to China it wouldnt need to be in the same calendar position as now. It could be moved to coincide with other events in the region, and there could be an Australasian swing, like there is a South American swing now.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 03:59 PM
hey there is extreme poverty in America, South America, Asia quit picking on Africa just coz all the picks you see on TV are of hungers or wars.....that said SAfrica would be perfect as its like only 7 hrs flight from Australia! hence the players are concertrated in an area. there are a couple Futures events played in Africa and tennis is played there as well!

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 04:00 PM
well if you have an austalasia/africa tour b4 AO then a south America/European clay court spell b4 RG, then an european grass court spell then Wimbledon, American hard court b4 US Open, Asian hard court, European indoor and then TMC.
Plus you'll be following the sun so it will be perpetual summer!! :)

As I said before once I find the post I'll show it to you, but that would be more logical, at the same time logic doesn't work.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 04:02 PM
Africa is not a realistic option. Tennis is non-existent in almost all of the countries on the African continent.
.
i travelled to Africa and in just one summer of being there i know this is not true!
If someone has ever lived ther maybe they know more?

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 04:03 PM
i travelled to Africa and in just one summer of being there i know this is not true!
If someone has ever lived ther maybe they know more?

Football is more important and the only 2 countries that really could hold a tennis event are South Africa and Morocco.

At a pinch Libya could hold one, but the interest isn't there.

star
08-02-2005, 04:05 PM
I think it would be a good idea to move it to China. USA has too many tournaments and tennis in China is growing. If anyone remember the Masters Cup in Shanghai, thats what they are capable of, and they have even better more modern stadiums now. Its not necessary to have top players to have big events, just look at Canada.

If it moves to China it wouldnt need to be in the same calendar position as now. It could be moved to coincide with other events in the region, and there could be an Australasian swing, like there is a South American swing now.

I dont' think there are too many tournaments in the U.S. There are far fewer tournaments in the U.S. than there are in Europe. Just as a rough guess, I would say there are approximately twice as many European tournaments as U.S. tournaments. Maybe three times as many. Plus with the United States and Canada covering such a huge geographical area, there aren't so many chances to get to a tournament. It's not much of a trip for a German to go to a tournament in France or in Poland or Croatia. But for me to go to a tournament in Florida, it's very difficult.

silverwhite
08-02-2005, 04:07 PM
Silverwhite - I didn't only say that we had the financial backing. I also said that we had the players (a long history of players for decades and decades - not just looking at today) and fan support for the game. I'm not saying that precludes other regions from getting tennis tournaments - but I do take exception that Asia "deserves" tournaments. They "deserve" nothing - they just have the money to buy their way into the sport. Is it good for tennis? Yes, expanding the sport into the global market is good. Is it good for the players? No, their schedule is too long to begin with, and since the vast majority are from the US, Europe, and SA, they have enough long travel. And sad to see regions that have long supported tennis get screwed over because their tournaments will be moved.


Believe me, there's plenty of support for tennis in Asia. And I don't think the history of quality players from the US warrants anything. By your logic, Britain is being cheated of many tournaments.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 04:08 PM
Football is more important and the only 2 countries that really could hold a tennis event are South Africa and Morocco.

At a pinch Libya could hold one, but the interest isn't there.
yup footbal is more important everywhere else like in South America but they still get tennis tournaments. The North Africans like Tunsia et all can afford a tournie and some of the more prosperous South African countries! Ther is interest.............. if you had told me b4 i went to Africa that i would play squash and tennis and golf with my host family i wouldnt have believed it but i did.

Hey :wavey: its not like i'm pushing for the atp to include it right now i just think you sholdnt exclude it already as unfeasible.

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 04:08 PM
Here's the breakdown by region (math could be a little wrong - hey I'm an Eng Lit major and hate math but s/b pretty close).

And agree with Star - US is huge - isn't easy for me in NYC to go to most of the tournaments here.

Europe - 33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
US - 13
South America - 4
Australia/New Zealand - 3
Asia (I'm including India here which is really SE Asia) - 5
Middle East - 2
Russia - 2
Canada - 1

Neely
08-02-2005, 04:09 PM
hey there is extreme poverty in America, South America, Asia quit picking on Africa just coz all the picks you see on TV are of hungers or wars.....
Extreme poverty can be found almost everywhere, it just matters how and where you look at it.

While I would consider Buenos Aires, Bangkok or Shanghai as suitable to host a big tennis tournament, what would be your pick for an African city to host such an event? (except South Africa and some North African countries)

Hendu
08-02-2005, 04:10 PM
As usual, GWH, you take what I say and total misunderstand.

yeah, whats wrong with that guy? :cuckoo:

:lol:

But as for using the word "deserve", I don't think Asia "deserves" tennis tournaments just because they can throw money at the sport

Well, they are more than 1.300 millions, hence there are lots of tennis fans.
Tennis fans who deserve the chance to watch quality live tennis.

For example, I think South America "deserves" larger tournaments and more support for their tournaments from both the tennis establishment and the players than Asia does. They have a large number of players in the ATP, and the sport is growing rapidly. Yet they don't have the money to throw at tennis so they are ignored.

everything is about money... you cannot make a tournament without money.

If there is a new AMS in China is not because they deserve it (although they do) but because of the yuans...

South America deserves an AMS too, but unless there are pesos or reales available that won't happen.

And don't say that futbol is and always will be the only sport that counts in SA. Tennis is not the most popular sport on most continents - and never will be.

Fútbol is not and has never been the only sport in South America.

And of course, tennis will never be the number one sport... in fact I think Tennis isn't the #1 sport in any country in the world.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Nairobi hosts many UN meetings why cant it host a tournie. Bostwana's capitl city whose name i 4get right now is also very developed.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 04:12 PM
GWH - yes, I agree with most of what you say. Tennis is a business. But that doesn't mean that I have to stand and cheer when I see a region able to buy their way into a sport as great as tennis. Or feel bad for an area such as South America that truely does "deserve" to have better support for their tournaments - yes, its better down there, but sad to see the player and tennis establishment support for these new tournaments in Asia when these same players never would get on a plane and go to SA because the money pot isn't as big.

What one region has managed to get themselves into good economic shape and have something to offer that the ATP want, it's not difficult to see why this happens and they are going to have to restructure the calendar at some point in the future.

As for the US is one country while the Europe has 57 countries. Obviously the US is one country, but its made up of 50 different states - and its kind of big. lol! To compare the US getting the same amount of tournaments as say a smaller country such as Monaco isn't fair. And while we have some small tournaments like Houston, they certainly don't get the top players like they do for many of the tournaments in Europe

What small tournaments in Europe have problems getting top players as well. It's still not the same and Europe is not one country, no matter how much spin ( not yourself) try to say otherwise.

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 04:15 PM
everything is about money... you cannot make a tournament without money.

If there is a new AMS in China is not because they deserve it (although they do) but because of the yuans...

South America deserves an AMS too, but unless there are pesos or reales available that won't happen.


It's just that simple really.


Fútbol is not and has never been the only sport in South America.

And of course, tennis will never be the number one sport... in fact I think Tennis isn't the #1 sport in any country in the world.

No, it's not and never will be anywhwere on a global scale.

Neely
08-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Nairobi hosts many UN meetings why cant it host a tournie. Bostwana's capitl city whose name i 4get right now is also very developed.
Yes, Nairobi would be capable of (in theory) and is a good city, I agree. :yeah:

Action Jackson
08-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Nairobi hosts many UN meetings why cant it host a tournie. Bostwana's capitl city whose name i 4get right now is also very developed.

There has to be the interest there for it to happen.

Nimomunz
08-02-2005, 04:19 PM
Yes, Nairobi would be capable of (in theory) and is a good city, I agree. :yeah:
yup its ALL in theory as if the atp guys are troling this board looking for new ideas! :rolls:

NicoFan
08-02-2005, 04:19 PM
Here's the breakdown by region (math could be a little wrong - hey I'm an Eng Lit major and hate math but s/b pretty close).

And agree with Star - US is huge - isn't easy for me in NYC to go to most of the tournaments here.

Europe - 33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
US - 13
South America - 4
Australia/New Zealand - 3
Asia (I'm including India here which is really SE Asia) - 5
Middle East - 2
Russia - 2
Canada - 1


Ooopppsss..forgot to say that I didn't include the Slams. These are regular tournaments and masters series events.

Hendu
08-02-2005, 04:20 PM
Plus with the United States and Canada covering such a huge geographical area, there aren't so many chances to get to a tournament. It's not much of a trip for a German to go to a tournament in France or in Poland or Croatia. But for me to go to a tournament in Florida, it's very difficult.

Thinking that way you would need 50 tournaments in China... and what about Russia? :confused:

Experimentee
08-02-2005, 04:23 PM
I dont' think there are too many tournaments in the U.S. There are far fewer tournaments in the U.S. than there are in Europe. Just as a rough guess, I would say there are approximately twice as many European tournaments as U.S. tournaments. Maybe three times as many. Plus with the United States and Canada covering such a huge geographical area, there aren't so many chances to get to a tournament. It's not much of a trip for a German to go to a tournament in France or in Poland or Croatia. But for me to go to a tournament in Florida, it's very difficult.

If you include challengers, there is a tournament in the US nearly every week of the year, and you cant equate one country to 57 smaller countries, because there are different governments and economies which control the tournaments and would benefit from them. From a fans perspective I get that its difficult to travel all over the US but its equally as difficult if there were no tournaments in Russia and they had to travel to Spain, and both have vastly different cultures and languages and organisation. Its the same with Asia, its hard for an Indonesian to have to travel to China to see a tournament, harder than it would be to travel across the US.

tennischick
08-02-2005, 05:36 PM
^ that didn't take long... the sisters blah-blah-blah
this isn't wtaworld. :rolleyes:

and i do think that the articles should have mentioned the economic impact of the Sisters' boycott of this event and the rather ugly circumstances that led up to it.

wcr
08-02-2005, 08:59 PM
Since Roger Federer fired IMG, my guess is that they're tired of owning a tournament that he wins all of the time. Sour grapes. ;)

LDVTennis1
08-02-2005, 09:50 PM
this isn't wtaworld. :rolleyes:

and i do think that the articles should have mentioned the economic impact of the Sisters' boycott of this event and the rather ugly circumstances that led up to it.

Going to have to interject, here. What economic impact?

Attendance and gate receipts have increased every year since the W Sisters last appeared.

Broadcast rights? No American TV network pays for the rights to cover the event. They didn't when the W Sisters were entered. They don't do now. If you don't believe me, you can look up the article in the LA Times which discussed this very issue. It came out following Federer's second round match.

The only broadcast rights the tournament has been able to sell over the last year or so are to a European sports network. Seems like Federer, and not the Sisters, is very popular in Asia and the European sports network in question paid for the rights to transmit his matches live to that part of the world. In part, that is why we in the US didn't get to see many of his early round matches on ESPN. Instead, we got more coverage of the women, matches no one wanted to pay for.

So, in conclusion, total economic impact of the Sisters boycott may be $0 dollars.

zhangxin219
08-03-2005, 04:58 PM
As a Chinese fan I would say that it is extremely difficult for most of us to travel abroad to see live tennis events (even those events in Japan or India) so i definitely welcome more big events to take place here.
But I do not think a regular TMS event should be held here in China now, maybe it will be better several years later,especially when China has some good male tennis player.

DanEd
08-03-2005, 05:07 PM
I like the idea, I hope chinese will buy miami too ;)

Angle Queen
08-03-2005, 05:20 PM
I don't have a problem with a tournament being bought by Chinese interests. Money talks. And I really do wish the governing bodies would take a more comprehensive look at their scheduling. It makes a whole of sense to have tune-up tourneys in the Asia region as a lead-up to the AO. As for if the players will do all the plane-hopping...:shrug: it'll be a business decision for the players and sponsors alike.

novanora
08-03-2005, 05:26 PM
I like the idea, I hope chinese will buy miami too ;)
Then I am pretty sure someone here may say "Chinese money ruin the tennis" ;) :o

novanora
08-03-2005, 05:42 PM
But I do not think a regular TMS event should be held here in China now, maybe it will be better several years later,especially when China has some good male tennis player.

If so, then we, I mean you and me, plus many other Chinese fans have to wait 50 years, even more.... This "several years" will be much longer than you think.

It doesn't much matter if a country doesn't have many players, then it can't hold a big tourney. If the tennis fans here deserve to watch live tennis matches, then the country does have the market, why it doesn't deserve to hold the tourney? Any tourney held in any country, city, can't leave money. I just feel so strange why someones here think China has nothing only money. Yes, we don't have many players, but we do have fans (THIS IS THE ONE BESIDES MONEY). It just let me think like if you can't play guitar, then you must leave your fav music.

zhangxin219
08-03-2005, 05:55 PM
Well you are right.I agree with you.
But it's just not necessary to be bothered too much by some people's opinion on China's action of so-called "buying tennis events".Those opinions may partially result from their misunderstanding. :)

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:08 PM
There is still the attitude that tennis should only be played in Europe, North America and Australia, and no need to expand anywhere else.
i didnt know that North Americans played :eek:, do they have any good players?

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:22 PM
. South Africa deserves an event, but its location is destroying its chances for having an event, because of jet lags.


whats the time difference between Central European Time and Johannesburg time is what? 1 hour at most...

:lol:

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:29 PM
hey there is extreme poverty in America, South America, Asia quit picking on Africa just coz all the picks you see on TV are of hungers or wars.....that said SAfrica would be perfect as its like only 7 hrs flight from Australia! hence the players are concertrated in an area. there are a couple Futures events played in Africa and tennis is played there as well!

and there would be NO security hassles with an S.A tourney :lol:

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:33 PM
I dont' think there are too many tournaments in the U.S. There are far fewer tournaments in the U.S. than there are in Europe. Just as a rough guess, I would say there are approximately twice as many European tournaments as U.S. tournaments. Maybe three times as many. Plus with the United States and Canada covering such a huge geographical area, there aren't so many chances to get to a tournament. It's not much of a trip for a German to go to a tournament in France or in Poland or Croatia. But for me to go to a tournament in Florida, it's very difficult.
i failed to pick up if there was an argument in this post? :shrug:

Nimomunz
08-03-2005, 06:35 PM
I dont' think there are too many tournaments in the U.S.
theres your argument :wavey:

undomiele
08-03-2005, 06:37 PM
There was talk of funding an ATP Masters tourney down here in Buenos Aires earlier this year, i.e.: replacing the current BA ATP tournament with a Masters tournament equivalent. That would, of course, require building some new facilities but i think it could be done. There certainly is a strong fan base here, the draw among other SA countries, and interest among the players themselves plus zero calendar problems as the Masters would only be replacing the smaller atp event. Finding the investors would simply be a question of pulling a real campaign together IMO. With Argentine players doing so well abroad, however, I don't see how investors can refuse to payroll what Im sure would be a very lucrative idea... I sure as hell would invest if I had the money. :yeah:

Nimomunz
08-03-2005, 06:38 PM
There was talk of funding an ATP Masters tourney down here in Buenos Aires earlier this year, i.e.: replacing the current BA ATP tournament with a Masters tournament equivalent. That would, of course, require building some new facilities but i think it could be done. There certainly is a strong fan base here, the draw among other SA countries, and interest among the players themselves plus zero calendar problems as the Masters would only be replacing the smaller atp event. I really do see it happening some day. Finding the investors would simply be a question of organising a campaign IMO. With Argentine players doing so well abroad, however, I don't see how some investors can refuse...
thats really nice but 10 Masters series tournies is far too much they gotta lose one maybe even two!

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:46 PM
Extreme poverty can be found almost everywhere, it just matters how and where you look at it.

poverty is relative, but is also measured quantitavely. who can argue that Africa is not the poorest region in the world?

look at any index on any scale: gross domestic product, human development index, infant mortality rates, standards of living, etc. and Africa will come up far behind any other region in the world.

of course there are extremely poor people in other ares of the world such as Asia, and South America, but on a much smaller scale than the case of Africa.

undomiele
08-03-2005, 06:48 PM
thats really nice but 10 Masters series tournies is far too much they gotta lose one maybe even two!

If you build it, they will come. ;)

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 06:52 PM
What small tournaments in Europe have problems getting top players as well. It's still not the same and Europe is not one country, no matter how much spin ( not yourself) try to say otherwise.

but the US has a solitary official currency, and much of the E.U has also uses a common currency...

that puts the US and the EU on the same par, therefore they deserve the same number of tournaments :).


as for the language barriers within the EU, well I suppose the whole world should only speak english anyway? wouldn't it make things much easier?

:haha::haha:

Nimomunz
08-03-2005, 06:54 PM
If you build it, they will come. ;)
:rolls:
i'm all for a masters in south america but i'm also all for less masters in general

alfonsojose
08-03-2005, 07:00 PM
the missing piece to this story: the impact of the Sisters' boycott.
Audiences grow every year, so i don't think it's that big :shrug:

its.like.that
08-03-2005, 07:05 PM
I don't have a problem with a tournament being bought by Chinese interests. Money talks. And I really do wish the governing bodies would take a more comprehensive look at their scheduling. It makes a whole of sense to have tune-up tourneys in the Asia region as a lead-up to the AO. As for if the players will do all the plane-hopping...:shrug: it'll be a business decision for the players and sponsors alike.
2 problems with the lead-up to the AO are:

1. christmas can't be moved (I take it most of the players would look forward to finally returning home after travelling much of the year, to spend time with their family)

2. the Aussie Open would be hard to move as well. It is currently held in the last week of school holidays in Australia, and if it was moved back to a later date, this would significantly effect crowd attendance.

so that leaves less than 1 month, a week or so after December 25 - end of January. Australia barely gets enough tournaments as it is, so they shouldn't be taken away, and if another Masters event was held prior to the AO, they wouldn't get all the top players turning up - as a masters event should get.

Hendu
08-04-2005, 03:29 AM
I posted this some months ago...

Its an article from the most important Argentine Newspaper...

link (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/03/26/deportes/d-05904.htm)

If someone who speaks English better than me can translate it, thanks.


These are the main parts:

Butch Buchholz has had the idea for a couple of years and is proposing it again this year...

He wants to make three tournaments, slightly smaller than the GS but bigger than the TMS.

Those three tournaments would be: Miami, one in China and another in South America... (the first option is Buenos Aires).

He has already talked with the ATP and the WTA.

He is looking for a strong sponsor with an international image...

About the Tournament in Buenos Aires (which he says is the right place to do it), he wants to build a Stadium like the one in Miami in Nordelta (which is outside the city of Buenos AIres, in the North).


If this happens it would be a dream come true, at least for me... :banana: :banana: :banana:

What do you think?

sigmagirl91
08-04-2005, 03:34 AM
I posted this some months ago...

The translation is very good. The only thing I'd do is substitute the word "prompting" for "proposing" in the first sentence of the article and take the comma out between the first sentence and second to make it a complete sentence. Otherwise, very good.

Hendu
08-04-2005, 03:44 AM
The translation is very good. The only thing I'd do is substitute the word "prompting" for "proposing" in the first sentence of the article and take the comma out between the first sentence and second to make it a complete sentence. Otherwise, very good.

Thanks! :yeah:


I also posted this:

I think its a great idea... this would change the Tennis map radically.
There would be only missing a big tournament in Africa (South Africa maybe?)


The 4 biggest tournaments:

Wimbledon (Europe) - Roland Garros (Europe) - US Open (North America) - Australian Open (Australia)

Then these 3 tournaments:

Miami (North America) - Buenos Aires (South America) - Shanghai/Beijing/ or other (Asia)

And then the Masters Series:

Cincinnati - Toronto/Montreal - Indian Wells (North America)

Hamburg - Rome - Monte Carlo - Madrid - Paris (Europe)

Maybe they would have to get rid of a AMS... I am really not good with the tennis calendar.

Action Jackson
08-04-2005, 04:15 AM
Good ideas hope they come true Willy, at least hope doesn't cost money.

Deboogle!.
08-05-2005, 05:22 PM
Update from the local paper out there
------------
What's the tennis tourney worth to voters?
City puts admission tax increase on ballot in hopes of keeping event in the valley

Colin Atagi
The Desert Sun
August 5, 2005

INDIAN WELLS - Hoping to keep a major tourist attraction from going overseas, city officials decided on Thursday to put an admission tax increase proposal on the November ballot.
Voters will decide whether Indian Wells will be able to raise its admission tax from 5 percent to 6 to 10 percent on an as-needed basis. The money would go, in part, toward paying for the costs of hosting the Pacific Life Open and could help keep the tennis tournament from relocating to China, officials said.

The city is working on an agreement with tournament co-owner PM Sports on refinancing the $39 million mortgage on the Indian Wells Tennis Garden. The debt service on the mortgage has caused the tournament to lose money each year since 2002.

PM Sports wants to refinance the loan, to a 6 percent or lower interest rate from an 8 percent interest rate, but it needs Indian Wells' help.

"Our bottom line is, we want PM Sports and the tournament specifically to stay in the Coachella Valley," said Councilwoman Mary Roche. "That's the bottom line, and we want them to be successful."

Indian Wells is contracted with PM Sports to hold the annual tennis tournament at the $77 million Indian Wells Tennis Gardens through 2007, and supporting the event from 2000 to 2007 costs $5.7 million, minus the admission tax.

An overseas investment group, believed to be from Shanghai, offered to buy the tournament for $35 million to $70 million.

International Management Group, which owns 50 percent of the Pacific Life Open, wants to accept the deal because the tournament has lost money since 2002 due to the annual $3.9 million debt service the tournament pays on the mortgage.

Indian Wells and PM Sports officials are in negotiations on how to alleviate the situation. The city is considering purchasing some land from PM Sports and creating additional parking.

Roche said the tournament is integral to the Coachella Valley's tourism industry. About 280,000 people attended the tournament last year.

City Council members unanimously voted 3-0 with Mayor Ed Monarch absent Thursday to add the proposition to the ballot. PM Sports president Ray Moore, when asked about the vote, said "No comment."

Ticket prices vary, depending on the packages available. Prices can range from $600 to $6,000.

Indian Wells received $426,500 in admission taxes during the 2004-05 fiscal year, which ended in June. The new admission tax could go into effect in 2007 at the earliest, and officials estimate it could bring in as much as $896,183 if the tax is increased to 10 percent.

"The city has done a good thing in passing it," Mayor Pro-Tem Conrad Negron said during Thursday's council meeting. "It's a sound business decision."

The extra money raised will go into the city's general fund and also be used toward the city's police and fire departments, said City Manager Greg Johnson, who thinks the increased admission tax will help reimburse the city with some of the money spent on the tournament. How much city departments stand to receive has not been determined.

"It's simply a way in which we can capture some of our general fund dollars we have taken to keep the tournament here," Roche said. "The admission tax is a way to help repay our general fund."

"The key with this tax is it's mostly on out-of-towners who come to our area to enjoy tennis, so it really isn't going to be a burden on our local residents," Roche said. "We're very sensitive that we don't put an additional burden on our residents."

Charlie Wheat of Indian Wells isn't convinced the tax increase is necessary, and thinks any money should be used to support the residents instead of the tennis tournament.

"The city's money in the general fund is being used for a purpose that's not right," he said.

NicoFan
08-05-2005, 06:03 PM
An overseas investment group, believed to be from Shanghai, offered to buy the tournament for $35 million to $70 million.


I hope the good people of IW vote yes on the ballot.

But they have to be careful - obviously this group is throwing money out there - the people of IW could vote for it, and still lose the tournament because this group is offering so much money.

So sad when sports come down only to money. I know that tennis has become all about money, part of the great capitalist system (said sarcastically). But doesn't mean that I have to like it.

revolution
08-05-2005, 07:11 PM
There should be a grass TMS as well, one of the hard or clay ones should make way. Hamburg for Halle I say.

IW already is a popular event, and I think it should stay, but there are too many US events IMO.

NicoFan
08-05-2005, 07:19 PM
There should be a grass TMS as well, one of the hard or clay ones should make way. Hamburg for Halle I say.

IW already is a popular event, and I think it should stay, but there are too many US events IMO.

Everytime I see a post where people say there are too many US events, I'm going to re-post this on the number of tournaments (excluding slams):

Europe - 33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
US - 13
South America - 4
Australia/New Zealand - 3
Asia (I'm including India here which is really SE Asia) - 5
Middle East - 2
Russia - 2
Canada - 1

Who has too many tournaments?

I'm not a flag waver by any stretch of the imagination - and in tennis, all my favorite players are latinos from South America or Spain.

The US, however, has done so much for tennis. We have some of the greatest players of all times. Huge fan support over decades and decades. Financial backing of the game. Corporate sponsorship of the game.

And looking at the numbers - Europe has almost 3 times as many tournaments!!!

Yes, the sport has to grow into areas such as Asia and Africa.

But you can't do so at the expense of an country that has long supported the sport - and we really do not have a lot of tournaments considering what we have done for the sport.

And areas such as South America have to be recognized first for their vast contribution to the sport.

revolution
08-05-2005, 08:06 PM
Everytime I see a post where people say there are too many US events, I'm going to re-post this on the number of tournaments (excluding slams):

Europe - 33!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
US - 13
South America - 4
Australia/New Zealand - 3
Asia (I'm including India here which is really SE Asia) - 5
Middle East - 2
Russia - 2
Canada - 1

Who has too many tournaments?

I'm not a flag waver by any stretch of the imagination - and in tennis, all my favorite players are latinos from South America or Spain.

The US, however, has done so much for tennis. We have some of the greatest players of all times. Huge fan support over decades and decades. Financial backing of the game. Corporate sponsorship of the game.

And looking at the numbers - Europe has almost 3 times as many tournaments!!!

Yes, the sport has to grow into areas such as Asia and Africa.

But you can't do so at the expense of an country that has long supported the sport - and we really do not have a lot of tournaments considering what we have done for the sport.

And areas such as South America have to be recognized first for their vast contribution to the sport.


I'm going on countries rather than continents. Europe already has a lot of events, but spread out in different countries.

USA has 14 including slam- Delray Beach, San Jose, Memphis, Scottsdale, IW, Miami, Houston, Newport, Indianapolis, LA, Washington, Cincinnati, New Haven, and USO. They had 15 with the TMC too until this year. :p

No other country has even half as much events as the US.

France has 6- Marseille, Monte Carlo TMS, Roland Garros, Lyon, Metz, Paris TMS
GB has 3- Queen's, Nottingham, Wimbledon
Germany has 4- Munich, Hamburg TMS, Halle, Stuttgart
Spain has 3- Valencia, Barcelona, Madrid TMS
Holland has 3- Rotterdam, s'hertogenbosch and Amersfoort.
Italy has 3- Milan, Rome TMs and Palermo.
Austria has 3- St Polten, Kitzbuhel, Vienna
Switzerland, Sweden, Russia have two each, and Poland, Croatia and Romania have one each.

No individual country has as much events as the US, so I think they should take a few away from the US and give them to Africa or Asia, and also have a grass TMS, and the grass season extended by a week or two. Less clay events as well.

NicoFan
08-05-2005, 08:18 PM
I'm sorry, but Europe has to be taken as a region. You may all see yourselves as small independent countries...but the rest of the world sees you as a region.

And as a region they have 33 tournaments as compared to 30 in the rest of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

When you look at a small country like Holland having 3 tournaments as compared to a huge country like the US having 13, its ludicrous.

I'm sorry to sound so *itchy about this, but I am tired of following my favorites week after week in Europe. And "following" is the operative word - not watching. No TV, can't afford to fly to Europe for the over one half of all tournaments they play there.

And half the tournaments you mentioned in the US are small terrible tournaments that none of the good players go to.

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 06:11 AM
I'm sorry, but Europe has to be taken as a region. You may all see yourselves as small independent countries...but the rest of the world sees you as a region.

Not every nation in Europe is part of the EU and yes even small insignificant countries out. So stop trying to make it look like Europe is a country, when the fact that they do not have a seat in the UN as a country.


And half the tournaments you mentioned in the US are small terrible tournaments that none of the good players go to

There are many small tournaments in Europe that could just as easily be called terrible ones as well, but just cause your favourite don't play in the US that often, means the tournament is a terrible one.

How about form just an American tour only, would that be better for you?

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 06:13 AM
There should be a grass TMS as well, one of the hard or clay ones should make way. Hamburg for Halle I say.

Trust you to whine that a claycourt TMS should be made to go for a grass one. If you were geniunely interested in fairness then it would be a hardcourt one as there are 5 of those.

NYCtennisfan
08-06-2005, 06:48 AM
In all fairness, the ATP Tour schedule is a massive "work in progress". It has been changed, updated, modled over the years. The US used to have a lot more tournaments in the old days but that was because the US carried the tour for a while. There were big tournaments in Europe and a few good ones in Japan and Australia, but the majority of higher paying tournies were in the US and that's why you still see the schedule littered with tournaments here. As time goes on, you will see tournaments leave and go where the money is. The problem will be to keep points of centrality so a good group of top players will show up at events. You don't want to go back to the old days where players that were not so keen on traveling like McEnroe or Borg just didn't show up at your event. Not everyone is like Vilas and Lendl who would go anywhere, whenever, in back-to-back weeks, etc.

LaTenista
08-06-2005, 06:49 AM
Here's a thought: Montreal and Toronto "share" the Canada TMS so why can't that work in other places too?

So give a TMS to China but it has to be before AO (and good luck getting them to move the AO back a few weeks). Then make Queen's a grass TMS - it can't be Halle because they already have Hamburg. Cincinnati, Indian Wells, and Miami will "share" the week after TMS Canada. But some of the smaller tournaments are going to have start "sharing" too: like Memphis/San Jose, Delray Beach/Scottsdale, Doha/Dubai, Umag/Sopot, etc. That should allow for the calendar to be shortened by at least 3 weeks and Davis Cup finals could be played in late October, giving players 2 months off. Also, probably most weeks there would be only 2 tournaments instead of 3 so in general the draws would be stronger.

Combine that with GWH's idea of clear definitions in the schedule for each surface and who knows :shrug: the tour could maybe be revamped without axing tournaments indefinitely.

silverwhite
08-06-2005, 06:55 AM
I hope the good people of IW vote yes on the ballot.

But they have to be careful - obviously this group is throwing money out there - the people of IW could vote for it, and still lose the tournament because this group is offering so much money.

So sad when sports come down only to money. I know that tennis has become all about money, part of the great capitalist system (said sarcastically). But doesn't mean that I have to like it.

The US, however, has done so much for tennis. We have some of the greatest players of all times. Huge fan support over decades and decades. Financial backing of the game. Corporate sponsorship of the game.

And looking at the numbers - Europe has almost 3 times as many tournaments!!!

Yes, the sport has to grow into areas such as Asia and Africa.

But you can't do so at the expense of an country that has long supported the sport - and we really do not have a lot of tournaments considering what we have done for the sport.

And areas such as South America have to be recognized first for their vast contribution to the sport.

LOL. I'm sorry but you're using the same weak arguments over and over again.

1. US has less tournaments than Europe.

GWH has refuted this already.

2. Money should not be a factor in Asia getting tournaments. But the US should get many tournaments because it has put in a lot of money in the game.

Hmm... :confused:

3. There is plenty of fan support in the US.

And there isn't in Asia or other continents? :confused: There are billions of people in Asia. A huge potential audience pool.

4. The US has produced many champions for the sport.

Yes. So has the UK. And Australia.

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 07:01 AM
Combine that with GWH's idea of clear definitions in the schedule for each surface and who knows :shrug: the tour could maybe be revamped without axing tournaments indefinitely.

Interesting suggestions about sharing tournaments and it has merit, but the thing is that there has to be some pain suffered for forward progress.

The reason behind the clear surface definition is obvious, Rebound Ace, clay, grass, hardcourts, indoor events, then the DC final. I have it somewhere and worked out the season to be 39 weeks and that would mostly be 37 as players won't necessarily be involved in DC final or TMC.

There are tournaments that would have to go at worst, and best moved to a different part of the year.

I have no problem with having 3 tournaments a week, especially as I would have a much shorter indoor season and that would be a compromise for doing that.

NYCtennisfan
08-06-2005, 07:45 AM
I have it somewhere and worked out the season to be 39 weeks and that would mostly be 37 as players won't necessarily be involved in DC final or TMC.

That doesn't sound too bad at all. It would be better than now and we would have come a long way since the early 80's when there was NO off-season.

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 07:48 AM
That doesn't sound too bad at all. It would be better than now and we would have come a long way since the early 80's when there was NO off-season.

The thing is that the season would have to start in Feb and finish in Nov, the 2nd week for most players, and a TMS would have to be played before the AO to make it viable and I said earlier in this thread IW and Miami really don't serve an actual purpose, as the 3 clay TMS lead into RG, Montreal/Cincinatti lead into the USO, Madrid/Paris lead to the TMC.

ugotlobbed
08-06-2005, 07:52 AM
if u know chinese ppl like i do and know their country....u dont wanna be apart of it...especially tennis going over there thinking its "cultural or eastern bull" just cuz now everyone invests in chinese market and they have the money to do these things....they still pretty much have bad motives behind most of their ideas and even if now they seem generous...i mean i just dont think making china a huge part of tennis calender is such a good thing ...what do u guys think?

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 07:55 AM
if u know chinese ppl like i do and know their country....u dont wanna be apart of it...especially tennis going over there thinking its "cultural or eastern bull" just cuz now everyone invests in chinese market and they have the money to do these things....they still pretty much have bad motives behind most of their ideas and even if now they seem generous...i mean i just dont think making china a huge part of tennis calender is such a good thing ...what do u guys think?

Ok, wise guru what is that makes you qualified to comment about your extensive knowledge about China and Chinese people?

Have you read this thread? There are plenty of differing viewpoints about this subject.

NYCtennisfan
08-06-2005, 09:39 AM
IW and Miami really don't serve an actual purpose, as the 3 clay TMS lead into RG, Montreal/Cincinatti lead into the USO, Madrid/Paris lead to the TMC.

IW and Miami do stand out as they aren't "lead-ups" to a major but both are really excellent events as far as fan enthusiasm goes. I've been to IW and my brother has been to Miami and IW and we really enjoyed our time there. Ticket prices are steep but people show up which saves everyone from WTA Year End Los Angelas like debacles.

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 09:44 AM
IW and Miami do stand out as they aren't "lead-ups" to a major but both are really excellent events as far as fan enthusiasm goes. I've been to IW and my brother has been to Miami and IW and we really enjoyed our time there. Ticket prices are steep but people show up which saves everyone from WTA Year End Los Angelas like debacles.

Monte Carlo, Rome, Montreal/Toronto and Cincinatti are excellent events as well, then again so is Dubai among others that doesn't mean very much really, the only thing they feel left out and have this stupid 96 player draw what for, they want to be a pseudo Slam, it's crap. At least Monte Carlo, Hamburg, Rome, Canadian Open, Cincinatti and even the Paris indoor to a lesser extent, have some history behind them. Tennis attendances are increasing overall everywhere and what about the WTA?

G O
08-06-2005, 11:45 AM
Ive been to them all and IW and Miami I would say are bigger events. I can't say how a;; the players feel about them, but I can say they show up. I wish I could say that for the euro masters.

History doesn't mean shit except to old people-G O

silverwhite
08-06-2005, 12:25 PM
if u know chinese ppl like i do and know their country....u dont wanna be apart of it...especially tennis going over there thinking its "cultural or eastern bull" just cuz now everyone invests in chinese market and they have the money to do these things....they still pretty much have bad motives behind most of their ideas and even if now they seem generous...i mean i just dont think making china a huge part of tennis calender is such a good thing ...what do u guys think?

I know this comment wasn't meant to come across as offensive but it does.

Care to elaborate on the "bad motives" behind their ideas?

G O
08-06-2005, 12:36 PM
I know this comment wasn't meant to come across as offensive but it does.

Care to elaborate on the "bad motives" behind their ideas?

2 things. You disagree....obviously and no little about China (aka center of th world). You want motives. China doesn't want buy IW. They want to buy it throw it in the trash and have their own of home soil.

Mr. Lobbed nails another one. China doesn't deserve anything. South America is next in line.

Action Jackson
08-06-2005, 01:00 PM
2 things. You disagree....obviously and no little about China (aka center of th world). You want motives. China doesn't want buy IW. They want to buy it throw it in the trash and have their own of home soil.

Mr. Lobbed nails another one. China doesn't deserve anything. South America is next in line.

What verbal pollution are you sprouting now?

silverwhite
08-06-2005, 01:14 PM
2 things. You disagree....obviously and no little about China (aka center of th world). You want motives. China doesn't want buy IW. They want to buy it throw it in the trash and have their own of home soil.

Mr. Lobbed nails another one. China doesn't deserve anything. South America is next in line.

Being a Chinese Singaporean, and having visited China before, I certainly would think I know more about China than an American.

And the rest of your post doesn't make sense at all. Come back when you have a proper argument.

BTW, props to you for knowing that Mandarin for China means "Central Country".

NicoFan
08-06-2005, 01:35 PM
Not every nation in Europe is part of the EU and yes even small insignificant countries out. So stop trying to make it look like Europe is a country, when the fact that they do not have a seat in the UN as a country.

How about form just an American tour only, would that be better for you?

There is no debating with you so I'll leave you with these thoughts.

If you think that Asian investors will only go after US tournaments, you are sadly mistaken.

And when they start to eye Madrid and Rome (both of which have attendence problems), all of a sudden your tune will change.

It won't be - SPAIN is losing a tournament. It won't be - ITALY is losing a tournament. It will be - EUROPE is losing tournaments to the Asians. WE can't let that happen! lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line:

1) EUROPE as a region has 33 tournaments.
2) NORTH AMERICA as a region has 15 tournaments (US, Canada, and Mexico).

I think that says it all.

I know you hate the US - but this isn't about politics, its about TENNIS.

And both NORTH AMERICA and EUROPE have spent DECADES supporting this sport with players, fans, and financial backing. Yes, we need to expand to other regions - that's great for the sport. But it has to be done in an intelligent manner, and not screw over areas that have long supported the game - including South America which will also be in danger of losing tournaments to those that have the money.

violet
08-06-2005, 04:11 PM
I just dont see why there are so many ppl announced themselves as "know china and chinese ppl" but being so irresponsible when comment about this issue

when it comes to the question about if China "deserves" a big event, I would say yes, for it has several crutial elements:
1 the ability to host a big event (it's pretty clear)

2 fan base (if u know how many devoted chinese fans here...they followed the matches at midnight while having work to do the next morning)

3, the growing market (with a population of 1.3 billion and the unexpected golden medal last year, chinese ppl's concern about tennis grows everyday. And the chinese girls are doing pretty well recently, if u know what I'm talking about)

we can drop the topic of "once there are real fans, it derserves the event" but how can u ignore so many obvious things? The atp does things for a reason, and YES, money is a big one, but if it's only for the sake of money, I dont think the chinese goverment would willing to buy a tennis event, coz there are many many other places that the money can be poured into. And for the last thing, I dont know where does the impression that China has a lot of money come from? coz as far as I know, this is not ture

propi
08-06-2005, 08:05 PM
Madrid isn't having attendance problems... actually it's the third most visited tournament in Europe after RG and W

NicoFan
08-06-2005, 08:25 PM
Madrid isn't having attendance problems... actually it's the third most visited tournament in Europe after RG and W

Sorry if I gave misinformation.

I thought I had read that the reason they had the models last year was to get people into the doors - people were defending their decision because they said that a tournament had to do what they had to do to survive.

Again sorry - I must have mis-read what was happening there.

ugotlobbed
08-07-2005, 02:03 AM
Ok, wise guru what is that makes you qualified to comment about your extensive knowledge about China and Chinese people?

Have you read this thread? There are plenty of differing viewpoints about this subject.

hahah bc im chinese i have a bunch of chinese friends and know ppl that owrk in the gov there....the list goes on and on..any questions?

Action Jackson
08-07-2005, 03:47 PM
There is no debating with you so I'll leave you with these thoughts.

If you think that Asian investors will only go after US tournaments, you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a question of debating with me at all. Then again you have been consistently pumping out misinformation and when you insist on calling Europe on country, when it isn't, just to attempt to justify your particular viewpoints, and how about refuting my arguments then, if you don't like them.

And when they start to eye Madrid and Rome (both of which have attendence problems), all of a sudden your tune will change.

It won't be - SPAIN is losing a tournament. It won't be - ITALY is losing a tournament. It will be - EUROPE is losing tournaments to the Asians. WE can't let that happen! lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line:

1) EUROPE as a region has 33 tournaments.
2) NORTH AMERICA as a region has 15 tournaments (US, Canada, and Mexico).

I think that says it all.

I know you hate the US - but this isn't about politics, its about TENNIS.

I see you are still going on with the tired crap that Europe is a country, just to use the term region not to make it look as bad, but the argument is essentially the same, that North America doesn't have enough tournaments when there are 3 countries compared to 50+ in Europe, it doesn't make sense, if it were 3 countries that had that amount of tournaments then it would be warranted.

Madrid doesn't have attendance problems, Hamburg has had some problems, but there are solutions and it's not the crowd that is the problem.


And both NORTH AMERICA and EUROPE have spent DECADES supporting this sport with players, fans, and financial backing. Yes, we need to expand to other regions - that's great for the sport. But it has to be done in an intelligent manner, and not screw over areas that have long supported the game - including South America which will also be in danger of losing tournaments to those that have the money

As you ignored silverwhite's very valid points on this before. Here it is again, what you are complaining about when it comes to Asian money, which they have and as for taking over the tour. Here are some other global ventures, the power bases are still in Europe for the F1, they have Asian events, with golf there are 2 seperate tours and that is expanding as well, but not to the fact that within the niche sport, the main bases are both the US and in the European region.

The sports power bases will not move, not everything operates like in US sports, if a team doesn't do well or something, then they can move them in a very short timeframe without letting them develop.

How is it alright that US money is OK, but Asian money isn't? Seriously, it's not like there is rampant expansion for one and also when South America has the cashflow to able to host a large event, then good for them and they should bid for one.

South America used to have really crappy tournaments and now they have some players going, but it has been difficult, and they had to change the circuit to expand this and these tournaments are not rich ones financially, but the economic impact can't be overlooked just for sake of sentimentality in professional sport.

Action Jackson
08-07-2005, 03:50 PM
hahah bc im chinese i have a bunch of chinese friends and know ppl that owrk in the gov there....the list goes on and on..any questions?

Go ahead, you got a bunch of Chinese friends that work in the Chinese government? Since it's a communist state wouldn't most of the population be government employees to different degrees.

You still didn't answer the original question, what is the motive that is so bad? What people in China don't like sport and don't want to see top class sport? It's not a law that people have to like the ones that are providing capital for a project.

*Ljubica*
08-07-2005, 04:04 PM
I'm sorry, but Europe has to be taken as a region. You may all see yourselves as small independent countries...but the rest of the world sees you as a region.

And as a region they have 33 tournaments as compared to 30 in the rest of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

When you look at a small country like Holland having 3 tournaments as compared to a huge country like the US having 13, its ludicrous.

I'm sorry to sound so *itchy about this, but I am tired of following my favorites week after week in Europe. And "following" is the operative word - not watching. No TV, can't afford to fly to Europe for the over one half of all tournaments they play there.

And half the tournaments you mentioned in the US are small terrible tournaments that none of the good players go to.

Sorry NicoFan but I have to wade in here - Europe is NOT one country - it is many different ones - most with their own language, culture etc. Europe is a continent just as America is a continent. And -I'm sorry - but just because people in America may see us lumped together as "one region" I don't think people in other parts of the world such as Asia or Africa think of us as such. To say somewhere like Rome or Madrid is the same as Sopot or Bastad is ludicrous, and could be deemed offensive - especially to those from the countries like Croatia for example, who have undergone tragedy and war to keep their own national identities. And personally I think it's great if other parts of the world such as China want to get more involved in tennis - new and fresh ideas are always good for the development of the sport.

Castafiore
08-07-2005, 04:20 PM
Europe one region? We wish! It sure would save us a couple of problems within the EU for example.

Like Rosie says, Europe is a continent with a number of different countries, languages, cultures, religions,...
I happen to live in a country with only 10 million citizens, but we have 3 official languages and it's a country where a hot southern culture clashes with a cooler northern culture.
I'm sorry to sound so *itchy about this, but I am tired of following my favorites week after week in Europe. And "following" is the operative word - not watching. No TV, can't afford to fly to Europe for the over one half of all tournaments they play there.

I can understand the frustration.
Even within Europe, I hardly get to see these matches on my tv and out of the 4 slams, I can only watch 2 of them. I haven't been able to watch the bigger events in Barcelona, Rome, Hamburg,...
I'm not even able to watch Eurosport (it was thrown off the cable because they demanded too much money) :ras: It sucks but what can you do about it (except whine about it from time to time :p )

Asia is getting more and more involved in F1 for example but it hasn't hurt that sport over there either. Getting more tournaments on more places on this earth will require a very good schedule, though if you want to attract good players to come to all corners of the world.

NicoFan
08-07-2005, 07:11 PM
Sorry NicoFan but I have to wade in here - Europe is NOT one country - it is many different ones - most with their own language, culture etc. Europe is a continent just as America is a continent. And -I'm sorry - but just because people in America may see us lumped together as "one region" I don't think people in other parts of the world such as Asia or Africa think of us as such. To say somewhere like Rome or Madrid is the same as Sopot or Bastad is ludicrous, and could be deemed offensive - especially to those from the countries like Croatia for example, who have undergone tragedy and war to keep their own national identities. And personally I think it's great if other parts of the world such as China want to get more involved in tennis - new and fresh ideas are always good for the development of the sport.

I know you're friends with GWH but come on. In a prior job I worked with people from all over the world, and I can assure you that they think of Europe as a region. About the only thing that I will give you on this is that they don't include the UK in there - they separate the UK out. Which I should have done also.

You say that I'm being offensive callling Europe a region - yet you just lumped together Africa and Asia (bolded it for you so you can see). I think that the situations of the various countries within Africa and Asia are very different. We lump the South American countries together also as a region - which obviously has very different circumstances in each country - and a couple of the countries don't even speak spanish as the majority of others do.

Please - don't say I'm being offensive when I'm just using terms that everyone else uses and you yourself use similar terms.

*Ljubica*
08-07-2005, 08:57 PM
NicoFan - I did not say that you were being offensive - I just said what you were intimating COULD BE DEEMED offensive - especially by those Europeans from cournties that have fought wars between themselves to preserve the national identities that you seem so keen to lose under your "Europe is one region" banner - Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia etc. As for the continents of Africa and Asia - like Europe, they are continents made up of many differing countries with different cultures, religions etc - the people who live there would not object to being called "Africans" and "Asians" in the same way as I do not object to being called "European" - but I would never assume that countries such as Zimbabwe, Niger or Ethiopia were the same because they are not - and to say that Zimbabwe (for example) should lose something because that thing exisits in Niger is just as wrong and ludicrous as saying Poland should lose something because a similar thing exists in Norway or Italy. The USA is different from all these instances because it IS one country - very very big - but still only one country - not many countries and cultures as exist on the African or European continents.

As for being friends with GWH - yes I am and I am happy to be so - but he and I often disagree about things - that's just human nature - just because we're friends doesn't mean we agree with each other 100% all the time - so I did not contribute to this thread just to support him - I have a mind of my own and contributed because I disagreed with what you were saying (just as Castafiore did), regardless of whether GWH agreed or not! OK - peace :angel:

delsa
08-07-2005, 10:43 PM
I'm going on countries rather than continents. Europe already has a lot of events, but spread out in different countries.

USA has 14 including slam- Delray Beach, San Jose, Memphis, Scottsdale, IW, Miami, Houston, Newport, Indianapolis, LA, Washington, Cincinnati, New Haven, and USO. They had 15 with the TMC too until this year. :p

No other country has even half as much events as the US.

France has 6- Marseille, Monte Carlo TMS, Roland Garros, Lyon, Metz, Paris TMS
GB has 3- Queen's, Nottingham, Wimbledon
Germany has 4- Munich, Hamburg TMS, Halle, Stuttgart
Spain has 3- Valencia, Barcelona, Madrid TMS
Holland has 3- Rotterdam, s'hertogenbosch and Amersfoort.
Italy has 3- Milan, Rome TMS and Palermo.
Austria has 3- St Polten, Kitzbuhel, Vienna
Switzerland, Sweden, Russia have two each, and Poland, Croatia and Romania have one each.

No individual country has as much events as the US, so I think they should take a few away from the US and give them to Africa or Asia, and also have a grass TMS, and the grass season extended by a week or two. Less clay events as well.

This is not in France. Although it's very close. It's like saying Andorra is Spain which is not true.
Make the Stella Artois Championships a grass TMS.
Give a TMS to China/Asia.
Make some "Mickey Mouse" European tourneys share an event.
Do something with Miami and IW (don't know what exactly, i'm not that smart and i don't really want to cogitate on it but something must be done...).
Give Africa at least one single big tournament! :D It's possible in South Africa, North Africa (right now only two countries of the "Maghreb" could welcome one tourny: Morocco or Tunisia) or in a big African capital in a relatively "rich" (for Africa :lol:) stable country (maybe in Cameroon (in Duala next to the 'Noah club' managed by Yannick's father, that would be cool! :D ) , in Kenya (Nairobi is a great place), in Dakar, Senegal... ;) The "richest" "Black Africa" (Francophone expression sorry...) countries except South Africa: Rep. Démocratique du Congo and Nigeria (all their oil = $$$) are not "stable" because ruled by ****** so no tourny for them... I'd like to say that in like ten/twenty years "Mada" could host one too but well... it's unrealistic except if some milliardaire wants one near his house... :sad: and the only Madagascan player who is a little bit known is Randriantefy on the WTA... :rolleyes: Aah! We still have the Makis XV rebuilding, the "lemuriens", the baobabs etc...
South America could/should have a TMS too.
And Europe is a region of the world as North America, South America, Asia, Pacific etc... are as it has been arbitrary decided long ago. It's only mentioning this scale that you can use this word... Europe is not a country, there are 57 of them there and that means something.
Here's what i think without really going deep into my reflexion on the consequences and all but well... ;)

Action Jackson
08-08-2005, 09:21 AM
I know you're friends with GWH but come on. In a prior job I worked with people from all over the world, and I can assure you that they think of Europe as a region. About the only thing that I will give you on this is that they don't include the UK in there - they separate the UK out. Which I should have done also.

What the hell does it matter if someone is friends with me or not? There are some people that do have a mind of their own and can come to their own conclusions through different experiences.

Ok, so what about countries like Denmark, Sweden, and there is little in common with someone from Iceland and someone in Albania except they are in the same continent and no they are not the same people.

You say that I'm being offensive callling Europe a region - yet you just lumped together Africa and Asia (bolded it for you so you can see). I think that the situations of the various countries within Africa and Asia are very different. We lump the South American countries together also as a region - which obviously has very different circumstances in each country - and a couple of the countries don't even speak spanish as the majority of others do.

You use South America as an example, do you actually know what languages apart from Spanish and Portuguese are used on the continent, yet you continue to try and label all Europe as the same, to justify your arguments. Ask one of my Croatian friends who had been through a war of independence with Serbia, that they are just Europeans and that little battle in the late 30s up to the mid 40s, yes they are all the same people.

The situations are different within all continents for different reasons, but the thing is you are the one consistently trying to call Europe a country, when it's proven not to be many times and also forgetting among the 57 of the nations, that there are many different languages, but nah they are all the same peoples.

Nimomunz
08-12-2005, 04:21 PM
bump
The Desert Sun
August 12, 2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDIAN WELLS - If the city's efforts to keep the Pacific Life Open in the Coachella Valley fail, a major mass transportation company in Shanghai, China, is interested in moving the international tennis event into a new $250 million facility.
The Shanghai Ba-shi Group, the largest mass transit company in Shanghai with 60,000 employees, confirmed to The Desert Sun on Thursday that it is the group making a multimillion-dollar offer to purchase the Indian Wells-based Pacific Life Open.

News of the group's interest was first reported on The Desert Sun's Web site Thursday.

The City Council of Indian Wells, the local group that owns 50 percent of the tournament, the owners of Tennis magazine and the United States Tennis Association have all been working furiously in the last months to put together a financial package that could keep the 12-day tournament in the Coachella Valley.

The event is estimated to have a $100 million impact on local tourism and is the fifth-largest tennis tournament in the world in terms of attendance.

But the Chinese deal is still on the table, and IMG - the sports giant that owns the other half of the tournament - has representatives in China right now, the local owners say.

The Shanghai Ba-shi Group has owned Shanghai's ATP event - the Heineken Open Shanghai - since 1998 and is also the promoter for the Tennis Masters Cup, the tour's year-end event featuring the top eight male players in the world.

The Pacific Life Open is struggling financially in the Coachella Valley, running about $2 million in the red every year, despite increasing attendance and popularity.

The owners are seeking Indian Wells' help to refinance their 8 percent mortgage down to 6 percent. The city is considering options and has put on the November ballot a measure that would raise the city's attendance tax from the current 5 percent to as high as 10 percent to help offset costs. Other financial elements are yet to be revealed as the parties wait for the USTA, Tennis magazine and the city of Indian Wells to play the full hand.

Losing the tourney could be a blow to the entire valley, experts say. Members of the valleywide tourism agency have considered ways to help keep the tourney, which packs restaurants, hotels and local rental properties in March.

Shanghai is already hosting a major tournament and is anxious to host more.

The Tennis Masters Cup, scheduled this year for Nov. 12-20, will be played in the 80-acre, $250 million Qi Zhong Tennis Center, which will complete its first construction phase next month, according to Charles Humphrey Smith, the managing director of Ten Events Asia Ltd., which represents the Shanghai Ba-shi Group.

The facility will feature a 15,000-seat, state-of-the-art stadium with a retractable roof. When the project is completed, it will feature 40 courts.

An ATP major in Shanghai?

The Shanghai Ba-shi Group also put on the 2002 Tennis Masters Cup that dazzled the Association of Tennis Professionals, commonly called the ATP, the men's tennis tour.
Since that event, the ATP has been looking into bringing a major event to Shanghai.

The Pacific Life Open is the fifth-largest tennis tournament in the world in attendance. More than 280,000 fans attended this year. It is also one of six tournaments - behind the four Grand Slams and the Nasdaq-100 Open in Key Biscayne Fla. - in the world with men and women playing concurrently, and with a draw with at least 96 players in both the men's and women's singles field.

When the Pacific Life Open announced it was looking for refinancing of its mortgage, Shanghai Ba-shi made an offer. Raymond Moore, the president of PM Sports, which owns half of the tournament, had said the offer was between $35 million to $70 million.

"We have met with PM Sports and IMG to discuss the opportunity of purchasing the Indian Wells franchise," Smith said through e-mail correspondence.

IMG, the Cleveland-based sports and cultural event giant, has expressed desire to sell its half of the Pacific Life Open.

"However, during these discussions the PM/IMG group decided to first pursue keeping the event in the Valley before continuing further discussions with our group," Smith said in an e-mail.

Smith also emphasized that if PM Sports' efforts fail, his group would be interested in bringing the Pacific Life Open to Shanghai.

"If the event is for sale and at a fair price then we would be interested in discussing purchasing the event," Smith said through e-mail correspondence from Shanghai. "If it is not available, we will - and are - pursuing other opportunities."

PM Sports is owned and run by local resident Charlie Pasarell and Raymond Moore.

Local solutions

PM Sports is working on two key factors to keep the Pacific Life Open in the Coachella Valley.
First, it needs to refinance its mortgage on the Indian Wells Tennis Garden, the facility that houses the Pacific Life Open.

PM Sports currently has an 8 percent interest rate on the complex, which they hope to get reduced to 6 percent or lower.

Indian Wells councilman Rob Bernheimer referred questions Thursday night to Mayor Ed Monarch and City Manager Greg Johnson, both of whom were involved in negotiations.

Monarch and Johnson, who is on vacation, were unavailable for comment.

The funds raised by the admission tax on the 260,000 seats sold to the 12-day event at the 16,100-seat Indian Wells Tennis Garden would help refurbish the city's general fund and offset city sponsorship levels which have run as high as $300,000.

The second factor is organizing a leveraged buyout of IMG, which owns the other 50 percent of the tournament. IMG was pushing for the sale, but agreed to let PM Sports organize a syndicate to help finance a $24 million buyout.

That syndicate includes the owners of Tennis magazine, who are saying that their participation is predicated on participation by the White Plains-based United States Tennis Association. The organization will vote on the matter at its October meeting.

Move still possible

Moore reiterated Thursday that if their efforts at the syndicate fail, the Shanghai offer is still available.
"The IMG guys are in China now and the offer is still on the table," Moore said.

The City Council, at its last meeting of the summer, voted to approve a ballot measure that, if passed, would allow the city's admission tax to be increased up to 10 percent from its current 5 percent level.

The Qi Zhong facility will be in the Minghang district, 27 kilometers southwest of the city.

The main stadium will incorporate many cutting-edge technologies, including those used to operate the eight-piece steel magnolia roof, which will take eight minutes to completely open or close, according to the ATP Tour's Web site.

SwissMister1
10-24-2005, 09:13 PM
No.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news;_ylt=Ai6wCe5PP5IKDQN7QcnVqQQ4v7YF?slug=ap-indianwells&prov=ap&type=lgns

lucashg
10-24-2005, 09:37 PM
No.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news;_ylt=Ai6wCe5PP5IKDQN7QcnVqQQ4v7YF?slug=ap-indianwells&prov=ap&type=lgns

That's good news! Indian Wells is one of the best tournaments around. I think it would be good to have an AMS in Asia, though. The Australian Open looks just isolated in Oceania/Asia there at the beginning of the year.

Jimnik
10-24-2005, 09:57 PM
I'm glad they're determined to keep Indian Wells but I would like to see a Masters Series event in China, within the decade. There are a few other AMS events which could be moved instead: ie Montreal, Cincy, Paris etc.

NicoFan
10-25-2005, 12:05 AM
I'm glad they're determined to keep Indian Wells but I would like to see a Masters Series event in China, within the decade. There are a few other AMS events which could be moved instead: ie Montreal, Cincy, Paris etc.

They'll never move Montreal/Toronto or Cincy.

I've never been to Montreal/Toronto but I heard they are well attended.

Ditto Cincy - and if you ever go there, you'll know why. It has to be the most fan friendly tournament that I have ever been to. Excellent tournament.

Jimnik
10-25-2005, 12:34 AM
They'll never move Montreal/Toronto or Cincy.

I've never been to Montreal/Toronto but I heard they are well attended.

Ditto Cincy - and if you ever go there, you'll know why. It has to be the most fan friendly tournament that I have ever been to. Excellent tournament.
It might not be enough. I'm sure they are great tournaments but the Masters Series needs to expand into Asia and I'm not sure there are any better alternatives.

lucashg
10-25-2005, 01:12 AM
It might not be enough. I'm sure they are great tournaments but the Masters Series needs to expand into Asia and I'm not sure there are any better alternatives.

I'm not sure about Cincinnati, but Canada Masters is such a traditional event, and I think that counts a lot. I don't think it makes sense to have an ATP Masters in Asia before the US Open too.

The ideal ATP calender will most likely not come to life so soon, but I do think they should separate different surfaces and continents in their own mini-seasons properly.

star
10-25-2005, 01:12 AM
Tourney secures powerful investor
Tennis association plans to assist PM Sports in buying out IMG

Leighton Ginn
The Desert Sun
October 24, 2005
The United States Tennis Association's board approved making an investment in the Pacific Life Open on Sunday, thus helping to secure the international tennis event's long-term future in Indian Wells.
"The USTA's support will include a financial investment as well as resources to enhance the tournament's marketing, sponsorship and television activities," according to a release by the USTA. "In addition, the USTA will have the option to expand its pre-existing investment over the next six years."

Terms and numbers were not released. PM Sports, which owns 50 percent of the Pacific Life Open, has not seen the term sheet yet. The two-week Pacific Life Open has an estimated $140 million economic impact on the Coachella Valley.

"The Pacific Life Open is one of the world's most prestigious tennis tournaments with a significant profile in the U.S. sports landscape," USTA president Franklin Johnson said in a USTA press release. "The USTA's decision to help assist in keeping this prestigious tournament in the United States is consistent with our mission to promote and develop the growth of tennis."

PM Sports president Raymond Moore expects to see the proposal today.

In a telephone interview, Johnson said he couldn't comment on specifics of the deal, but anticipates it will meet the approval of PM Sports and its investors.

"The objective that this serves is buying out IMG and keeping the tournament in the U.S.," Johnson said. "I believe this will get us there.

"We will proceed on an agreement that will achieve that."

The USTA was being asked to invest in the tournament to assist in a leveraged buyout of International Management Group, which owns a 50 percent interest in the tournament.


The buyout of IMG is $24 million, according to Johnson. Arlen Kantarian, the USTA's chief executive of professional tennis, had worked with PM Sports on the proposal, and made the presentation over the weekend at the board meetings.
"The Pacific Life Open is one of the top six tennis tournaments in the world, and we look forward to working with our new partners - Charlie Pasarell, Raymond Moore (the owners of PM Sports), and the city of Indian Wells - to bring a new level of success to this marquee event for tennis in our country," Kantarian said.

The buyout needs to be completed by Nov. 22, Moore said.

The Tennis Company, a group that invests in tennis properties, had agreed to fund a large part of the buyout, but said their participation is contingent on the USTA joining in.

IMG had expressed interest in selling the tournament to a group in Shanghai, the Shanghai Bashi Industrial Co. Lt., for between $35 million to $70 million before agreeing to a leveraged buyout.

Terms of the deal were not released as PM Sports will not see a term sheet until today. However, Moore was happy with the result.

"It's a great day. This is a very important step," the PM Sports president said. "Everything is very positive. It's on the right track, and obviously, we're very happy with this decisions.

"We won't have to worry about the future of the tournament for 20 years."

In August, Johnson had said the USTA was asked to invest $6 million.

However, Johnson said the $6million was a starting point. The exact amount of the investment was not released.

"Our intent is to do enough with the other investors to buy out IMG," Johnson said from San Antonio, where the board was holding its meetings.

The USTA has a $150 million portfolio it can use to invest. However, it's not just the deep pockets that make the USTA an ideal partner.

The USTA runs the largest tennis tournament in the world, the U.S. Open. The USTA has strong resources and leverage to attract sponsors, additional investors and hopefully a stronger television package.

"You can't put a dollar value on it," Moore said. "Their influence is enormous. You're talking about a group that runs the biggest tournament in the world. Their influence with the networks is enormous, with the weight they carry. We hope they can bring all of that to the table."

Johnson has been spearheading the campaign to help the Pacific Life Open. Since the tournament in March, when the operation's financial problems became public, Johnson has said he would get the USTA to help if needed.

"I was pleased with the result," Johnson said. "It's fair to say the board authorized us to move forward. It's not a done deal with all the terms, but we agreed to make an investment under certain terms."

One thing Johnson has said continuously was the Pacific Life Open would have to show it was a good investment and that the USTA would get a return on its investment.

The Pacific Life Open appeared to do that in August when the city of Indian Wells agreed to buy a 27-acre plot of land adjacent to the tournament for $15 million.

Moore said the deal will net $12million, which will go toward paying down the debt. PM Sports will also be able to refinance its loan at a lower interest rate, which will return the Pacific Life Open to profitability.

Part of the land deal with the city had a contingency buying out of IMG.

"We just have to finalize the terms," Moore said. "The final part of the deal is to buy out IMG, but this is a very positive step.

"It's a step the city required and that's great news for us. We're closing in on making this deal."

Moore said he hopes to have the IMG buyout, as well as the mortgage refinancing, completed by Nov. 22, which is the deadline for the leveraged buyout.

"That's a deadline we're hoping to have everything concluded," Moore said. "That's the line in the sand."

Much of the Pacific Life Open's financial problems were due to the $39 million remaining on the mortgage of the $77 million Indian Wells Tennis Garden, which opened in 2000.

The tournament had an 8 percent interest rate on the mortgage, which resulted in $3.9 million annually it had to pay in debt services.

The heavy mortgage has left the tournament in the red since 2002, following the collapse of the $1.2billion deal Swiss marketing conglomerate ISL had with the ATP Tour.

The ISL deal, which went into effect in 2000, would have guaranteed the Indian Wells event approximately $12 million a year for 10 years.

star
10-25-2005, 01:17 AM
The financial problems of Indian Wells aren't because of the lack of attendance. The tournament is very well attended. The problems stem from IMG wanting out of the partnership after McCormick's death, and from the debt load. The debt loas is undoubtedly because Passarel wanted a really fabulous stadium court. He got that, but the tournament would have been successful without such an expensive stadium.

A look at the 2005 attendance at the six largest tennis tournaments in the world.
U.S. Open 659,538

Australian Open 543,873
Wimbledon 467,188
French Open 424,876
Pacific Life Open 280,653
Nasdaq 100 263,000
Information provided by ATP and WTA tours.

star
10-25-2005, 01:39 AM
The cause: Prior to moving into the Indian Wells Tennis Garden in 2000, the ATP entered into a deal with Swiss marketing conglomerate ISL. In exchange for the television and marketing rights, ISL agreed to pay the ATP’s “Super 9” tournaments and year-end championship a combined $200 million over 10 years. The Indian Wells tournament would get approximately $12 million over 10 years. In building the Indian Wells Tennis Garden, PM Sports outlined a financial plan to pay for the mortgage based on the deal. The two years of the deal proved to be the richest for the tournament before ISL went bankrupt after the 2001 Indian Wells tournament, canceling the deal.
The solution: PM Sports, which owns and operates the tournament, has agreed to sell a 27-acre plot of land adjacent to the Indian Wells Tennis Garden for $15 million to the city of Indian Wells. PM Sports said the deal will net approximately $12 million, which will go to pay down the debt. Two years ago, PM Sports sold another 64 acres to Irvine real estate developer Sanderson J. Ray for $19.6 million. The deal on the 64 acres in scheduled to close escrow at the end of this year, but there are two 90-day extensions written into the contract. After taxes, broker fees and settling the debt, PM Sports is estimating it will net $8.5 million on the deal, which will also go to paying down the debt. Because of the two deals, PM Sports will pay down the debt by 50 percent, as well as refinancing at a lower interest rate and turning the tournament back to profitability.

BUYOUT

The problem: IMG, which owns 50 percent of the Pacific Life Open, wants out of the tournament. The international sports and entertainment conglomerate has agreed to a buyout of approximately $24 million.
The interested buyer: A group from China, the Shanghai Bashi Industrial Co. Ltd., had made an offer between $35 million to $70 million to buy the tournament and move it to Shanghai’s new $250 million tennis complex, the Qi Zhong Tennis Center, which will feature a 15,000-seat stadium and 40 tennis courts at completion.
The solution: PM Sports has helped organize a buyout, recruiting The Tennis Company, which is made up of Tennis Magazine’s George Mackin and Robert L. Miller. To complete the buyout, PM Sports needs the help of the USTA. On Aug. 25, USTA president Franklin Johnson said his organization was asked to contribute $5 million to $6 million to the buyout. However, Johnson added that figure is a starting point and will be negotiated. The Tennis Company’s involvement hinges on the USTA’s participation, Mackin said.

NicoFan
10-25-2005, 02:16 AM
Well, I've already been in this fight so not doing it again.

Just will say what I said before, and not coming back here to this thread...lol!

Yes, Asia, South American, Africa regions needs tournaments (or more touranments or master series events).

But their not having ours.

I don't want any of the North American region touranments going anywhere.

The entire spring and fall seasons are in the European region. There are double the number of tournaments in the European region than in the rest of the world regions combined.

So again...no no no no no...you can't have our tournaments...we don't have enough as it is.

Look elsewhere.

And the schedule does have to be refigured before they start selling any tournaments anywhere.

Deboogle!.
10-25-2005, 02:48 AM
I'm glad it's staying there :) Now I just have to find the time to get myself there for a weekend.

TenHound
10-25-2005, 04:28 AM
If they're having a serious problem, perhaps they should call AA. Merely Nike's last payment to him, when they parted ways, was for $40M. Obscene, but....He lives in the neighborhood, but a short hop on his private jet from IW. At the very least, he could come up w/a no-interest, long-term loan.

federdeng
10-25-2005, 04:57 AM
could you make the long story short
but to your title, it's great to have one master series in China.
and I expect that it would land on Guangzhou.

Peoples
10-25-2005, 10:48 AM
A big tournament in Asia in the middle of a US season should be avoided at all cost. We don't want 2 13 hour flights for all players to make it to both Masters tournaments. No US tournament should move. The Chinese should buy one of the clay masters and play it on hard court or something.

star
10-25-2005, 02:56 PM
How about China buying Madrid and then everyone could stay in Asia right before the Masters. I have no problem with the Masters being played in Asia for many years -- or Australia. That's ok too.

mangoes
10-25-2005, 05:17 PM
Asia deserves a TMS event but I really wish it's not Indian Wells, one of the nicest venues and one of my favorite tournaments during the entire year. Sell Miami, please.


NO, NO, NO...................No suggestion of selling Miami.