Why Can't Lleyton beat Roger Federer [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Why Can't Lleyton beat Roger Federer

iliketennis
06-25-2005, 09:16 AM
I think that it is down to the fact that Hewitt is unwilling to change his game plan. Obviously, Federer is not troubled by Hewitt's baseline game that involves barely any power.

Maybe if he sliced a few more backhands, mixed up his serve a bit and came into the net more often (which he is more than capable of), he could at least challenge Roger Federer.

Discuss- ;)

iliketennis
06-25-2005, 09:40 AM
I am annoyed with people that say Lleyton is up himself. Here is a nice quote he said about Roger Federer's impact on tennis

"I think he's definitely going to be one of the greats. He's taken it to another level. That's what motivates all the guys"

1sun
06-25-2005, 10:46 AM
the answer is quite simply to be honest. hewitt is just not good enough and his type of game plays right into the hands of federer. if he ever wants to be beat roger again hes goin to have to be much more aggressive, go for his shots, go for the lines, serve extremly well and charge the net often and play with alot of power.so basicaly play the match of his life and hope fed is at 70 or so percent.or just hope that federer cant put a ball over the net.

kartveteran
06-25-2005, 11:07 AM
Can't Lleyton try to play some Nadal type game to trouble Roger?
Or is he not physically strong enough for that?
Or is Nadal's latest edge to Federer more a psychological kind of thing?

iliketennis
06-25-2005, 11:10 AM
Nadal's edge on Roger is called clay ;)

kartveteran
06-25-2005, 11:13 AM
There's still those two Key Biscane matches that were very close...

iliketennis
06-25-2005, 11:17 AM
Hewitt has had no problems with Nadal. (Don't know about on clay though) And those close matches Nadal had with Feds were around the time that Roger needed three sets for everyone- especially Ivan Ljubicic on a few occasions.

joeb_uk
06-25-2005, 11:34 AM
I think its mainly due to the fact that he doesnt have the weight of shot to hit through federer (whilst federer is able to hit consistently with hewitt, and also has the weight of shot to hit through hewitt). This is the same case for federer and coria i feel too (both players arent aggressive enough and lack the weight of shot of say a safin does).

kartveteran
06-25-2005, 11:38 AM
To iliketennis: Well, this way you're just stating that Hewitt's and Nadal's games are both similarly inferior, and that Federer doesn't have any problems with Nadal at all, if not on clay.

However, next time Federer meets those 2 players on hard court, for example like this:

US open 2005:

Semi-Final: Federer - Hewitt
Final: Federer - Nadal
(or the other way around, Nadal semi, Hewitt Final)

Do you really believe Hewitt and Nadal have equal chances? I'm pretty sure Fed will be way more confident going into the Hewitt match. I will also feel so, and so will all bookmakers do.

If you don't believe so, I just hope you'll be right (being a Federer fan myself ... :) ). But obviously, if you think Hewitt's and Nadal's games are equally inferior to Federer, there's no point in trying to answer my question (about Hewitt imitating Nadal's style to play Federer)... Maybe someone else?

Poljud
06-25-2005, 11:45 AM
Because Federer is betterer.

FanOfHewitt
06-25-2005, 12:15 PM
Because:

-Federer reads Hewitt's serve really well and Hewitt can't get many free points with it like he does against most other players.

-Hewitt can't return Federer's serve well becuase it is very accurate and even if he does get it back it's usually with him being dragged off the court becuase he stands so far back. This gives Federer the chance to do easy put aways.

-Hewitt isn't as consistent from the back of the court as most think he is.

-Hewitt always enters matches with Federer with the mentality that he is likely to lose. I doubt he does this with anyone else.

-Hewitt isn't powerful enough to move Federer around the court.

-Federer is powerful enough to move Hewitt around.

-Federer is a very accurate shot maker unlike others like Roddick who constantly make unforced errors and can't exploit Hewitt's lack of power.

-Federer matches if not surpasses Hewitt's athleticism and Hewitt can't do the normal passing shots and lobs he does over most of the other players.

iliketennis
06-25-2005, 12:21 PM
Sorry for the previous posts Kartveteran. To answer your question, I just don't think that you can employ someone elses style and expect to do better than them at their own game. Hewitt needs a complete different tactic to Nadal if he is to win. And yes, I agree that Nadal stands a better chance than Hewitt against Federer, but I don't think either will beat him on hardcourt, and definintely not on grass (with the exception of off days).

deliveryman
06-25-2005, 12:22 PM
The same reason none of us can beat Roger... he's just simply better.

Ferrero Forever
06-25-2005, 12:27 PM
hahaha, good one deliveryman

Castafiore
06-25-2005, 12:28 PM
At this point, it's very difficult to beat Federer on grass but it's not impossible.

On clay, Nadal has the edge on Federer. We've seen that.

On hardcourt, I would give the edge to Federer, but Nadal has proven to be a tough opponent on the surface and he's improving on that surface so I'm hoping to see a couple of great matches between the two.

Hewitt beating Federer on grass? Very difficult at this point but like I said: not impossible (I hope).

tennisvideos
06-25-2005, 01:12 PM
How about "Why can't why anybody beat Roger" could be the thread title instead. Sure he has lost the odd match here and there, but basically he's head and shoulders above everyone. Except perhaps Nadal ... who hits with tremendous pace, depth and topspin on his groundies. Lleyton doesn't have the weight of shot nor do I think the stamina that Nadal has shown. Safin .... well on an exceptional day he has shown he can mix it with Federer, but ultimately I think Roger has it over him as well.

Lleyton can hold his head high ... he has had a great career to date and can beat just about all but Roger. No mean feat.

Still, this is the present and who knows what the future holds for all of these players. Gasquet himself may usurp the lot ... and I wouldn't mind that - he's cute :)

ca1houn
06-25-2005, 01:16 PM
the answer is quite simply to be honest. hewitt is just not good enough and his type of game plays right into the hands of federer. if he ever wants to be beat roger again hes goin to have to be much more aggressive, go for his shots, go for the lines, serve extremly well and charge the net often and play with alot of power.so basicaly play the match of his life and hope fed is at 70 or so percent.or just hope that federer cant put a ball over the net.

I agree Hewitt is just keeping the ball in play basically daring roger to go for his shot and unfortunately Federer and Safin calls his bluff sort of speak

morningglory
06-25-2005, 01:27 PM
Hewitt is too chicken and passive

Melvins
06-25-2005, 02:37 PM
Because Roger is better than him.

Haute
06-25-2005, 02:58 PM
Lleyton's power game cannot beat Roger's panache and all-around game.

Regenbogen
06-25-2005, 03:01 PM
Because Roger is better than him.
exactly.

mickymouse
06-25-2005, 03:02 PM
Roger has played him too often, and knows him too well.

Fedex
06-25-2005, 03:03 PM
His game just matches up perfectly for Federer. plain and simple

Seleshfan
06-25-2005, 03:24 PM
Because:

-Federer reads Hewitt's serve really well and Hewitt can't get many free points with it like he does against most other players.

-Hewitt can't return Federer's serve well becuase it is very accurate and even if he does get it back it's usually with him being dragged off the court becuase he stands so far back. This gives Federer the chance to do easy put aways.

-Hewitt isn't as consistent from the back of the court as most think he is.

-Hewitt always enters matches with Federer with the mentality that he is likely to lose. I doubt he does this with anyone else.

-Hewitt isn't powerful enough to move Federer around the court.

-Federer is powerful enough to move Hewitt around.

-Federer is a very accurate shot maker unlike others like Roddick who constantly make unforced errors and can't exploit Hewitt's lack of power.

-Federer matches if not surpasses Hewitt's athleticism and Hewitt can't do the normal passing shots and lobs he does over most of the other players.

I think this about covers it. :)

Art&Soul
06-25-2005, 03:41 PM
ROGI is a shotmaker and Hewitt lacks of power to blow him out :)

njnetswill
06-25-2005, 05:13 PM
When i read the thread title I thought, "well, almost no one can beat federer".

Hewitt is just one of many players who gets outplayed by Federer. It's gotten to the point where anytime Roger loses it's a shock. But that type of form is hard to maintain, so I think we will see some of the top players start to make things slightly more competitive.

au_sports_opinion
06-25-2005, 06:40 PM
I think that it is down to the fact that Hewitt is unwilling to change his game plan. Obviously, Federer is not troubled by Hewitt's baseline game that involves barely any power.

Maybe if he sliced a few more backhands, mixed up his serve a bit and came into the net more often (which he is more than capable of), he could at least challenge Roger Federer.

Discuss- ;)

Um, isn't this exactly what he's done. His game has changed heaps, a much bigger serve and he goes for alot more. Not to mention the fact that he's built himself up. Hasn't all of this been done to defeat Federer??

au_sports_opinion
06-25-2005, 06:49 PM
For the record, if Lleyton defeats Rog in the Semi's, the pair will be 9-9 in head-to-heads.

noodles24
06-25-2005, 06:50 PM
The thing about Nadal for Federer, he's said that it's hard to get used to Nadal's heavy lefty topspin balls because there isn't a lefty who hits like Nadal and it takes time for him to get used to it.

ca1houn
06-25-2005, 07:30 PM
For the record, if Lleyton defeats Rog in the Semi's, the pair will be 9-9 in head-to-heads.

hummmmmmmmm no

Melvins
06-25-2005, 07:34 PM
For the record, if Lleyton defeats Rog in the Semi's, the pair will be 9-9 in head-to-heads.

The important is the results in last 2 years. Just one victory in many games to Hewitt.

Fedex
06-25-2005, 09:05 PM
For the record, if Lleyton defeats Rog in the Semi's, the pair will be 9-9 in head-to-heads.
No, it will be 9-8 Federer. Not that it means anything anyways, because Federer has had Hewitt's number the past few years.

alexito
06-25-2005, 10:49 PM
do you no remember? for years lleyton def federer, always.
now, lleyton is no same players when he was number 1.

Scotso
06-25-2005, 11:10 PM
1999 Lyon - Hewitt def. Federer 7-6 2-6 6-4
2000 Davis Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 6-2 3-6 7-6(2) 6-1
2000 Canada - Hewitt def. Federer 3-6 6-3 6-2
2001 's-Hertogenbosch - Hewitt def. Federer 6-4 6-2
2002 Hopman Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 6-3 0-6 6-4
2002 Paris Open - Hewitt def. Federer 6-4 6-4
2002 Tennis Masters Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 7-5 5-7 7-5
2003 Davis Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 5-7 2-6 7-6(4) 7-5 6-1

Scotso
06-25-2005, 11:11 PM
No, it will be 9-8 Federer. Not that it means anything anyways, because Federer has had Hewitt's number the past few years.

No, it will be 9-9.

Fedex
06-25-2005, 11:30 PM
1999 Lyon - Hewitt def. Federer 7-6 2-6 6-4
2000 Davis Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 6-2 3-6 7-6(2) 6-1
2000 Canada - Hewitt def. Federer 3-6 6-3 6-2
2001 's-Hertogenbosch - Hewitt def. Federer 6-4 6-2
2002 Hopman Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 6-3 0-6 6-4
2002 Paris Open - Hewitt def. Federer 6-4 6-4
2002 Tennis Masters Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 7-5 5-7 7-5
2003 Davis Cup - Hewitt def. Federer 5-7 2-6 7-6(4) 7-5 6-1
All of these are irrelevant though because Hewitt has lost to Federer 7 straight times.

Fedex
06-25-2005, 11:32 PM
No, it will be 9-9.
Well unless this is incorrect it is 9-7. http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/headtohead/head2head.asp?player1=Federer%2C+Roger&player2=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&playernum2=H432

Havok
06-25-2005, 11:39 PM
Hewitt lacks power BADLY. His shots are just begging to be smacked back at 3x the speed from Federer for winners. He has the heart of a lion, but it seems like he has the force of a mouse on his groundstrokes:o. You need power among other things to beat Roger.

Havok
06-25-2005, 11:41 PM
The Federer/Hewitt h2h reminds me of the Dokic/Martinez h2h. Conchita wins the first 5 matches vs Dokic mainly due to experience, but then Dokic demolishes Conchita the next 5 times they played. The 11th time, though, Dokic was in tank mode (which she has been for 2+ years) and squeaked out a win.:( h2h don't really mean a whole lot, you need to look at what has happened between the two currently, and not 3+ years back.

Fedex
06-25-2005, 11:42 PM
Hewitt lacks power BADLY. His shots are just begging to be smacked back at 3x the speed from Federer for winners. He has the heart of a lion, but it seems like he has the force of a mouse on his groundstrokes:o. You need power among other things to beat Roger.
He can hit with some power, but he needs pace to do so, and Federer pushes Hewitt behind the baseline with heavy groundstrokes, then gets the short ball and uses his transition game.

Skyward
06-25-2005, 11:43 PM
Well unless this is incorrect it is 9-7. http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/headtohead/head2head.asp?player1=Federer%2C+Roger&player2=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&playernum2=H432

The ATP site doesn't count Hopman Cup

Fedex
06-25-2005, 11:45 PM
The ATP site doesn't count Hopman Cup
Well, I personally dont count Hopman Cup either, but again, that match was years ago, so its also irrelevant.

Sjengster
06-25-2005, 11:54 PM
It will be 9-8 if Hewitt wins, Federer was 2-7 down in head-to-heads and has won the last 7. But of course it wouldn't be a meaningless victory just because Federer has won so many in a row - you don't think Hewitt beating him in a Wimbledon SF would be significant?

The poster who said that the one difference between Hewitt and Nadal against Federer was clay: nope. The big difference is topspin. Federer said last year that it's easy to get the rhythm against Hewitt because he hits the ball "nice and flat"; on the other hand, Nadal's topspin is continually rearing up out of his strike zone and forcing him to play awkward shots way behind the baseline. Nadal can do a whole lot of things with the ball that Hewitt can't, so it's a rather pointless comparison.

I was watching the Hewitt-Federer match from Shanghai 2002 a few days ago and was struck by how much Federer has improved mentally and physically in the last few years; he's strong enough now to stay in the rallies with Hewitt, to work the ball over the court without getting too impatient, and eventually to hit the winning shot. He's also quick enough to track down any forcing shot that Hewitt can hit; I was reminded of this in last year's TMC final, when in Hewitt's opening service game, he hit a great serve down the T on game point, right on the line, and Federer at full stretch got it back with power to Hewitt's baseline, winning the point instantly. Movement and court positioning are a big reason why Federer is able to hit through Hewitt on a consistent basis but Roddick can't; his bigger takebacks and positioning behind the baseline mean he often goes for too much or else is outmaneouvred by Hewitt at crucial moments.

The thing that strikes me about the Federer-Hewitt match-up is that it could easily become competitive again if Federer loses some of his mental toughness; he still has to work hard to put Hewitt away, and it's worth remembering that in all of those matches last year where he bagelled him and seemed unstoppable, there were also stages where the scoreline got tight and Hewitt was very close to getting back on level terms. The fourth set at Wimbledon where he was up a break, the second set at the US Open that lasted well over an hour, the first two sets of the AO match... the result hung in the balance at these times, but Federer managed to win the big points. I agree that Hewitt is suffering from a lack of belief against Federer at the moment, which is understandable especially after last year's US Open final, but I still feel he'll be right there to take full advantage if Federer slips up mentally.

Sjengster
06-25-2005, 11:57 PM
The Federer/Hewitt h2h reminds me of the Dokic/Martinez h2h. Conchita wins the first 5 matches vs Dokic mainly due to experience, but then Dokic demolishes Conchita the next 5 times they played. The 11th time, though, Dokic was in tank mode (which she has been for 2+ years) and squeaked out a win.:( h2h don't really mean a whole lot, you need to look at what has happened between the two currently, and not 3+ years back.

I can see what you mean about head-to-heads changing, but please... don't compare Federer to ball-basher extraordinaire Dokic. :p

Havok
06-26-2005, 12:01 AM
:haha: Viva ball bashing.:drool: Though, just like Federer, Dokic is scary when on. Mind you that happens like once every year, but whatever.:p

Yeah Fedex, Hewitt can hit with some pace, but when you're put up vs Fed, you need a huge amount of pace, or an insane amount of topspin on your shots ala nadal so you don't get pushed sooooooo far behind the baseline as you just said. hewitt plays the same ball over and over again, you can read his groundstroke rallies like a book quite frankly.:o That just doesn't come close to cutting it vs Roger. All the matches they played last year, Roger lost sets due to his choking abilities, which resurfaced in those sets (not too sure about their Ao match, however).

bad gambler
06-26-2005, 12:19 AM
What i find really odd, especially coming from a guy who is arguably one of the toughest mentally is that in all the interviews which made reference to roger, Hewitt would continually say that he can challenge for the no1 again and that Federer is beatable yet whenever he played him in the last year (maybe with the exception of Wimbledon) it was obvious to see that Hewitt resigns himself to knowing he cant beat Federer at the moment. Simply put, he doesnt attack. His defensive play will beat anyone on tour at the moment except for federer and safin.

To me he is most definitely capable of altering his game, but its more in his mindset than anything else.

Fedex
06-26-2005, 12:22 AM
I
The thing that strikes me about the Federer-Hewitt match-up is that it could easily become competitive again if Federer loses some of his mental toughness;
Well I dont exactly see Federer losing his mental toughness and confidence in the blink of an eye, especially to a guy who he has beaten 7 consecutive times.

NYCtennisfan
06-26-2005, 12:24 AM
Because:

-Federer reads Hewitt's serve really well and Hewitt can't get many free points with it like he does against most other players.

-Hewitt can't return Federer's serve well becuase it is very accurate and even if he does get it back it's usually with him being dragged off the court becuase he stands so far back. This gives Federer the chance to do easy put aways.

-Hewitt isn't as consistent from the back of the court as most think he is.

-Hewitt always enters matches with Federer with the mentality that he is likely to lose. I doubt he does this with anyone else.

-Hewitt isn't powerful enough to move Federer around the court.

-Federer is powerful enough to move Hewitt around.

-Federer is a very accurate shot maker unlike others like Roddick who constantly make unforced errors and can't exploit Hewitt's lack of power.

-Federer matches if not surpasses Hewitt's athleticism and Hewitt can't do the normal passing shots and lobs he does over most of the other players.

This about covers it.

NYCtennisfan
06-26-2005, 12:29 AM
All of these are irrelevant though because Hewitt has lost to Federer 7 straight times.

Entirely irrelevant. Even moreso than the USO, the TMC matchups between LH and Federer showed just how much LH was owned. Federer was playing without any pressure since he had wrapped up #1 and was just flowing. It was as if he was playing against a junior player. You had the feeling looking at LH that they could play 20 sets and LH wouldn't win a single one.

That being said, anything can happen in any given match.

Sjengster
06-26-2005, 12:32 AM
Well I dont exactly see Federer losing his mental toughness and confidence in the blink of an eye, especially to a guy who he has beaten 7 consecutive times.

Not in the blink of an eye, no, but I'm cautious enough never to take a victory over a fellow Top 5 player for granted, especially after the loss to Safin in Australia this year. Granted, it was a completely different match-up and it was obvious that Safin had the game to trouble him, but the record was still 6-1 in Federer's favour and most people, including me, presumed he would get him again. Amazing things can happen in Grand Slams.

Skyward
06-26-2005, 01:23 AM
. Granted, it was a completely different match-up and it was obvious that Safin had the game to trouble him, but the record was still 6-1 in Federer's favour and most people, including me, presumed he would get him again. Amazing things can happen in Grand Slams.

Don't underestimate Lundgren's input. One russian article said that PL did a live commentary for supporters in Safin's box. He knew where Federer was going to serve/hit, disclosed all his favorite patterns, and suggested that his feet were hurting.

Fedex
06-26-2005, 01:25 AM
Don't underestimate Lundgren's input. One russian article said that PL did a live commentary for supporters in Safin's box. He knew where Federer was going to serve/hit, disclosed all his favorite patterns, and suggested that his feet were hurting.
Interesting

Sjengster
06-26-2005, 01:27 AM
I'm not surprised at that, I wondered whether we were going to see a new strategy from Safin at the TMC match bearing in mind it was his first match against Federer with Lundgren in his corner, but I didn't see anything specific that time. It just goes to show that while Federer improved tenfold mentally during 2003/04, his game hasn't changed that much - and Lundgren obviously knows it better than anyone, having coached him for so long.

Scotso
06-26-2005, 01:50 AM
Sorry, but it would be 9-9. Hopman Cup may not be "official," but it's still a match.

And since when does losing to someone a few times in a row cancel out all the previous wins? That's bull.

Sjengster
06-26-2005, 01:53 AM
All right, KBF, all right... clearly Safin gave the event the due respect and effort it deserved when he got bagelled by Davide Sanguinetti there this year and went on to win the AO two weeks later.

Fedex
06-26-2005, 01:56 AM
Sorry, but it would be 9-9. Hopman Cup may not be "official," but it's still a match.

And since when does losing to someone a few times in a row cancel out all the previous wins? That's bull.
He hasn't lost to Federer a 'few' times in a row, he has lost to him 7 times in a row, and none of those matches have been particularly close. Until Hewitt can atleast come close to beating Federer now those other matches dont really mean much.

Sjengster
06-26-2005, 01:58 AM
Interestingly enough, that Hopman Cup match was the only time Federer has bagelled Hewitt and gone on to lose the match. But in this case, I think that scoreline had rather more to do with Hewitt's impending chickenpox than with Federer's brilliance.

Scotso
06-26-2005, 02:16 AM
I beg to differ. The thread title says "Why Can't Lleyton beat Roger Federer." Well, he can, and he has.

For me, that's really the end of the discussion, so I'm going to spend my time posting nonsense elsewhere.

Sjengster
06-26-2005, 02:36 AM
Don't be obtuse, you know perfectly well what the thread title meant even though it doesn't say "at the moment" to make things more explicit.

NYCtennisfan
06-26-2005, 02:52 AM
Don't be obtuse, you know perfectly well what the thread title meant even though it doesn't say "at the moment" to make things more explicit.

Right on.

And since when does losing to someone a few times in a row cancel out all the previous wins? That's bull.

Lots of times. Connors beat Lendl the first 8 times they played and Lendl was hopeless against him. He won one set I think until finally he beat the hell out of Connors 1 and 1. They traded wins back and forth and then Lendl won the last 17 matches. The final HtoH was 22-13 in favor of Lendl. By the end of the 17 win streak, do you think the first 8 wins and 5 other wins by Connors were cancelled out? In that 17th straight win during the 1992 USO when Connors was 39, do you think anyone doubted that Connors was completely and utterly owned by Lendl?

DanEd
06-26-2005, 03:27 AM
Hewitt Lacks both power and a big attack game

tennisvideos
06-26-2005, 11:36 AM
He hasn't lost to Federer a 'few' times in a row, he has lost to him 7 times in a row, and none of those matches have been particularly close. Until Hewitt can atleast come close to beating Federer now those other matches dont really mean much.

Hi Fedex

I think those matches mean a lot - depends whose perspective you are looking from. For Lleyton they mean a lot. For the history books they mean a lot. For Hewitt fans they mean a lot. Just because Federer has won the past 7 times doesn't mean the rest is irrelevant - far from it. Lleyton dominated Federer for a number of years and that is a fact. Now Federer dominates Lleyton.

The difference is that Federer is in the ascendancy now. But it doesn't mean the other matches don't mean much.

Just putting a bit of perspective into the discussion.

landoud
06-26-2005, 11:46 AM
Hewitt Lacks both power and a big attack game
no i don't think that... but i guess hewitt is afraid of federer... remember last year US OPEN final...

Auscon
06-26-2005, 11:55 AM
because they're not playing Davis Cup :)

zubzy
06-26-2005, 11:59 AM
because they're not playing Davis Cup :)

damn straight!

WyveN
06-26-2005, 02:24 PM
Federer has lost 5 non clay matches over the past 18 months and none of those have been to someone with the Hewitt/Canas gamestyle, tennis is about match ups and that gamestyle obviously doesnt bother Federer.

NYCtennisfan
06-27-2005, 08:31 AM
Federer has lost 5 non clay matches over the past 18 months

That's just a crazy stat. 5 matches in 18 months....unbelieveable.