Safin facing his demons...special guest star Lundgren, Rosset,Davydenko and Volkov [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Safin facing his demons...special guest star Lundgren, Rosset,Davydenko and Volkov

Bibir
05-16-2005, 09:37 AM
From the french newspaper "L'Equipe"

Translated by the "sweet" Damita. :worship:



Marat Safin facing his demons.

At the age of 25, we thought he had calmed down. But since his victory at the Australian Open, in January, the Russian went through a lot of defeats without glory. Being prey to doubts again, will he find the key to his internal torments before Roland Garros?

There he goes again! Gloomy thoughts which appears and are eating into him. Dejection crises which make his craving shut up. Doubts which eat into his tennis. All those weird moods he has been going through since we know him and which start to sound like a cliché, in spite of himself, in spite of us. Wonderful champion at the Australian Open 3 months ago, in January, he has fallen to the bottom of water since then. He didn’t win any tournament due to matches beneath his talent. And now Roland Garros which is coming with this question: which Marat Safin will show? The one from Melbourne, calmed down (a little bit), with his high level of confidence and his brilliant game? Or the one from Monaco, Barcelona and Rome, whose mind is assailed with questions and whose racket is at half-mast?

And we thought he had changed since his Australian victory. He was in control, he seemed to have mastered his frustrations. A godsend for the tennis world: a new Safin was born, soon to be the regular challenger of Roger Federer. His brand new coach, Peter Lundgren, the guy who had restrained Marcelo Rios’ aggressive ardour, the guy who had then restrained Roger Federer’s fiery impatience, had once again done some great work. Armed with his Nordic coolness and his well-rounded stature, Lundgren had not let Safin’s uncertainties get the better of him. He has succeeded where his predecessors – 8 coaches since the beginning of Safin’s career – had failed. Marat’s work. Lundgren’s share. That was a gross mistake.

Because will Marat ever change? Gerard Tsobanian, the Russian’s French manager, disappointed, almost angry after his favourite’s failures, says: “Why is it not working for Marat? But because he has fallen back into the twists and turns oh his complicated psyche!”. And then he admits, puzzled: “The fact Marat might have lost his tennis in the Melbourne-Moscow flight is a mystery to me…”

But it seemed not to be a mystery for Russian player Nikolay Davydenko who says: “Marat took a long break after Melbourne. He preferred to go fishing near Moscow”. Lundgren, who in private is as surprised as Tsobanian, categorically denies: "In Moscow Marat trained very well. But after the Australia he was probably mentally tired. Since we are together he has worked a lot. He’s also given a lot during autumn. He won the tournaments of Beijing, Madrid and Bercy, he played the semi-final in Houston’s Masters. Marat was the man to beat during the last winter, and he is burnt now”. Then he adds: “At the beginning of the year, Marat was focussed. He didn’t show his emotions. He was in control. He was playing well. We need to have that state of mind back. But it’s difficult, he’s not someone who has a huge confidence…”

We would like to avoid the overused image. But with Marat you always go back to the same point, deep into the character who lives in his mind, back to his mental manipulations, his mental masochism. His mother, Rauza, doesn’t worry much about it and quietly explains: “Marat trains seriously, but he doesn’t know how to play his tennis anymore. He’s lost his concentration. Perhaps after Melbourne he wanted to succeed too much…”. Swiss Marc Rosset, a friend of the Russian – maybe because he acts like him, and like their 3rd buddy, the enigmatic Goran Ivanisevic – says: “What do you want, it’s Marat. Someone whose results depend on his craving, on his feeling, whereas some others can ignore their emotions. If something goes wrong in his mind, everything goes wrong. And he questions himself a lot, he sets very high standards for himself. Therefore, he may have won in Melbourne, it won’t change a lot: he may play 20 perfect forehands, if the 21st is bad, he’ll hate himself for it and it’s going to be a catastrophe”. Rosset talked to safin on the phone just after the Russian lost to Argentine Acasuso in the second round of Barcelona: ”Marat told me: “there will be better days”. He’s also quite fatalist for that matter”.

Here are some examples of this resignation that he expressed in a disconcerting month of April:

“Marat you went through tough times after Melbourne, is there an explanation for it?
- I just lost confidence. Anyway, over the past three years, I didn’t have any good results in these tournaments I played after Melbourne… It’s the kind of months I can’t play.
Why?
- I don’t know why. No matter how hard you train, how much you give of yourself, no matter if you try not to think about it or if you think about it a lot, no matter if you train a lot or not at all. At the end it doesn’t work anyway.
When you lost confidence, you just had won the Australian Open, you were feeling good…
- I took a break before Dubaï. I took 3 weeks off. Then I needed time to get used to the courts and I lost the confidence.
While you were on a break?
- Yes. During the break. It happens sometimes”.

Then he is asked if he has ever thought of working with a mental trainer. He prefers to avoid the question: “You have to be satisfied with what you are. You can’t change. You can’t pretend you can change because it’s not possible. No one changes, and no one can change you, no matter what they do, or how many time they spend trying. You must accept it. And I managed to finish in the top 10 for 4 or 5 years so… and I’ve been #1, so it’s not that bad”. Actually, Marat Safin worked last year with an Israeli psychologist found by Amit Naor, a former player who is now one of his managers, and whose name hasn’t been revealed to us by Marat’s staff as the Russian doesn’t like the idea anyway.

On another side, since Dubaï he’s been working with a new physiologist. He has fired the old talkative man Walt Landers, and he’s now working with Donald Nielsen, a former Thai boxing champion, who is also a chiropractor and an adept of mental coaching. Will Safin be able to peacefully associate physical and mental training at his contact?

“We must do everything to put him back on the right way” says Lundgren. Everything to get him out of this spiral, because they don’t want Melbourne to make him sink like his first GS title (the US Open, in 2000) did. More than 4 years have passes during his mythical victory over Pete Sampras in New York and his second GS title won in the last winter. Four years – the longest moment spent in wilderness by any player in the whole tennis history – to get rid of the image of a 20 year old exceptional kid whom his American victory had then crushed him more than it had transcended him.

“The situation is completely different this time” refutes Gerard Tsobanian. "At the US Open, Marat suddenly had to learn what it was to be famous. Now he is a more mature man, who has experienced plenty of good things in-between”. “And Marat knows today how to get out of this issue, whereas there are some who never find the solution to the problem” says Alexander Voltkov, a former player who has been Marat’s coach in the past and now works with the Russian Davis Cup and Fed cup teams. And he adds, laughing: “Tomorrow everything will be better with Marat, you’ll see. He’ll suddenly wake up in a better mood, he’ll decide to play better, and he’ll be there again”.

Safin will have the desire again. And everything will be solved. Peter Lundgren agrees: “I think Marat will be ready for Roland Garros. It’s a tournament he really likes”. And Marc Rosset: “You should never put Marat under pressure. And that’s why Peter is perfect for him. He is very quiet, he can be very severe when he has to be, but also very cool at times. And also yeah, what Marat is perhaps really looking for nowadays is the Grand Slams”.

Asked if he can compare Safin and Federer, Lundgren prefers to highlight their difference: “When I worked with Federer, he was an impulsive young man of 19-20 years, who has know found his maturity. Marat is a man of 25 years, he knows what he is doing”. Does the Swedish coach mean Safin isn’t a kid anymore, that he has found the way he wanted he to “live” his tennis and must accept the consequences? But does Safin even know what he wants in his life? His interviews don’t explain much. Of course he talks a lot. He bows his head down, takes a monotonous voice, and makes long, endless sentences which he suddenly ends in a disarming, charming smile. But what does he say about him really?

After a victory or a loss he stays calm, true to himself, which is a strange behaviour compared with his extreme reactions on court. In the past, he couldn’t stand it when his father was getting nervous and started screaming from the courtside. He asked him not to come to any tournaments anymore. But still… he’s always hiding behind this weird indifference, always saying he is happy the way it is. When somebody asked him, in Monaco, if he wasn’t frustrated of not being able to compete with Roger Federer since Melbourne, as everyone had been expecting it, he answered, impassive: "No, not at all. I try to play at my best, I try to be the most consistent I can. If something can help and I’m able to compete with Roger for the #1 ranking, good. But if I can’t do it, I’m still happy”.

Thus he pretends he is satisfied with him, with the way of life of the multimillionaire he is, dividing his time between his 3 apartments (in Moscow – on the Kalinski Prospekt where the communist dignitaries had their residence, in Valencia and in Monaco), with the lifestyle he has as a playboy, a reveller. Again, it’s hard to avoid the clichés. Marc Rosset: "It is a completely false image people have of him. Marat doesn’t like alcohol, and likes nightclubs even less. He’ll prefer staying at home with friends if he can. But if someone sees him out late a night, then everyone start fantasize”. But what about the beautiful girls around him? “OK, girls are there. But he’s handsome, he is attractive”. So there would be another Safin, more ambitious, with a superior emergency? Rosset again: “Maybe you shouldn’t try to understand Marat. Take him as he is. It took me a long time to understand him. Russians… you see them arguing, but at the end they fall into each others’ arms. Kafelnikov was the same. They are expressive, they cry, they laugh”.

That must be the famous Slavic spirit, which leads you to euphoria before it leads you into depression. It’s again an image which sticks to the character, but Safin himself uses it, probably to avoid the questions from journalists easier. Because it can’t be that simple. Somebody told him about Labadze’s theory: if the Russians don’t really want to play before they start a match, then they don’t really play. And Safin answered, mocking: “It’s Labadze. He is Georgian”. In brief, what does he know about Russians? Then it continues with the ups and downs of Davydenko, who disagrees: “Careful! Marat isn’t Russian. He’s a Tatar”. So what? What does it change? “Well, he’s a bit weird. Me for instance, I prefer to play doubles with Russians. I play with Andreev”. So Safin is a weird Tatar, born in Moscow in a family from Kazan, the capital city of the former autonomous Soviet Republic based on the middle regions of the Volga. He is a Muslim, like the 7 millions descendants of these Turkish- Mongolian nomads, even though he is not a practising Muslim. Dancer Rudolph Noureïev was another famous Tatar. And nobody ever understood his enigmatic genius either.

Françoise INIZAN. L'Equipe Magazine

Action Jackson
05-16-2005, 09:45 AM
Thanks for that it was a very interesting read I just wish they could have got Chesnokov's views as well and basically it says Marat is Marat and something that can't be pinned down easily.

mer
05-16-2005, 09:57 AM
Bea, why irritate ppl with another Marat thread ? Some of them said they have gagging reflex... :rolleyes:

*Ljubica*
05-16-2005, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the article Bea - it didn't irritate me at all - I found the article very interesting. Thanks for sharing. :)

Bibir
05-16-2005, 10:41 AM
Bea, why irritate ppl with another Marat thread ? Some of them said they have gagging reflex... :rolleyes:
Where's the problem mer? This article is very interesting and It's great to have other points of view, Lundgren and Rosset are close to him, they know him better than us.

I don't force anybody to read this thread...But he's not only the guy who has won "the ace hotlist" contest or the one who accused Ferrero of child's play.

He's much more than that...

NINA_BCN
05-16-2005, 10:44 AM
He's much more than that...

;)

mer
05-16-2005, 10:50 AM
Where's the problem mer? This article is very interesting and It's great to have other points of view, Lundgren and Rosset are close to him, they know him better than us.

I don't force anybody to read this thread...But he's not only the guy who has won "the ace hotlist" contest or the one who accused Ferrero of child's play.

He's much more than that...

Sorry, Bea. You got me wrong. I was just a little bit upset lately about some ppl 's kinda scornful comments on Marat. I'm stupid sometimes...

LilyRoseAva
05-16-2005, 11:31 AM
scans by me for maratletsar.fr.tc :)



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BlackSilver
05-16-2005, 11:39 AM
I love these interviews where they convoke several close people to him to solve the enigmatic Marat Safin, they talk and talk and talk even more just to say that in the end nothing can be done to understand him :D


Marat doesn?t like alcohol

But wasn't the proper Safin that said once that beer was a fundamental part
of his life ?

Damita
05-16-2005, 12:04 PM
I love these interviews where they convoke several close people to him to solve the enigmatic Marat Safin, they talk and talk and talk even more just to say that in the end nothing can be done to understand him :D

:lol: you're right. At the end, nothing new :p


Translated by the "sweet" Damita. :worship:aww, thank you "sweet" Béa :hug: ;)

Bibir
05-16-2005, 12:09 PM
My favourite part is when Lundgren said “We must do everything to put him back on the right way” :worship:

Peter believes in him...and that's very important.

perrygreen
05-16-2005, 12:15 PM
Very interesting article, though the riddle is still left without an answer.

Whistleway
05-16-2005, 03:04 PM
Wow. Intriguing. Thanks for your nice post.

Chloe le Bopper
05-16-2005, 03:50 PM
Bea, why irritate ppl with another Marat thread ? Some of them said they have gagging reflex... :rolleyes:


I'm one of the people who may be prone to say something like that, but not this time. Thanks Bea, it was an interesting article ;)

maratski
05-16-2005, 05:43 PM
I'm one of the people who may be prone to say something like that, but not this time. Thanks Bea, it was an interesting article ;)

you deserve a cookie now Becca ;)

TennisLurker
05-16-2005, 05:49 PM
So he is not an ethnic russian, I was right!

tangerine_dream
05-16-2005, 05:50 PM
Another interesting read about the weird Tatar. Thanks for posting that. :)

Tennis Fool
05-16-2005, 06:21 PM
So he is not an ethnic russian, I was right!
What do you mean he's not an "ethnic Russian"?

Deboogle!.
05-16-2005, 06:24 PM
What do you mean he's not an "ethnic Russian"?It discusses it in the article.

Anyway, nice read. Thank you Bea, and Damita for translating! Seems like Marat is certainly trying to get through these rough patches. Let's hope he does it sooner rather than later :yeah:

TennisLurker
05-16-2005, 06:33 PM
my grandparents were born in Russia, had russian passport, but they were not ethnic Russians, they were volga Germans.

Marat obviously is Russian, he was born in Moscow, but he is not an ethnic Russian, in any encyclopedia, if you search Russia: population you will see they list russians, and tatars as different ethnic groups.

Davydenko agrees with me :P

alfonsojose
05-16-2005, 06:44 PM
Hot Tatar, you broke my heart :inlove:

Turkeyballs Paco
05-16-2005, 07:18 PM
Nice article. Marat's such an interesting guy. He has one of the most engaging personalities. Funny that taking a long break would screw up his confidence. I hope he gets it back soon. Another long dry spell after winning AO would be such a tragedy.

Sjengster
05-16-2005, 09:31 PM
Ha, Kolya can talk, he's a Ukrainian who lives in Germany after all. A very interesting read, and Rosset's comments in particular were enlightening including his debunking of the partying image of Safin. I do know that Safin has an allergy to wine, it was mentioned in sympathetic tones at the AO this year by Eurosport's very own wine buff commentator, Frew McMillan. All the talk about the Russian mentality has certainly been brought up in the past - wasn't it Medvedev who said Russians had one great year, then took a year off to celebrate it, then had another good year? Safin's long quote where he says you can't change a person's mental outlook is very telling, since I'm not sure his theory applies to everyone; there have been players, e.g. Federer who have managed to change their mental approach to the game and become more successful because of it, but then I suppose you have to have a certain personality in the first place to be amenable to change. Safin evidently doesn't fall into that category, hence he has no desire to be winning matches week in and week out on the ATP Tour and as he says, he'll be happy to challenge Federer for the top spot if the opportunity comes along but it's not something he'll work hard to pursue.

connectolove
05-16-2005, 09:48 PM
Perhaps all he needs is a good dose of lithium...

star
05-16-2005, 10:11 PM
:hatoff: Thanks a bunch for the article! It was a great read. :)

lau
05-16-2005, 11:44 PM
Perhaps all he needs is a good dose of lithium...
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
But I don´t know if everyone here will understand that :scratch:
(lithium= used as medication in mood disorders) ;)

NYCtennisfan
05-17-2005, 12:28 AM
What an introspective article. This was very much unlike the usual drivel out there. Thank you.

NYCtennisfan
05-17-2005, 12:40 AM
What do you mean he's not an "ethnic Russian"?

The former republics of the now defunct Soviet Union (Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Kazakhstan) are populated by what people may call "Tatars". In 19th century literature, you will find anybody from Central Asia called a Tatar and sometimes Tatar was synomous with Central Asian Muslim. Even though the Soviet Union annexed these lands from the Turks who took over from the Mongols (or whatever the remnant powers that remained like the Uzbek people or the Kyrgyz) and incorporated them into the motherland, they were always seen as something other than purely ethnic Russians. You will notice the distinction made in any famous Russian novel.

NYCtennisfan
05-17-2005, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by connectolove
Perhaps all he needs is a good dose of lithium...

Nivrana wrote a good song about Lithium.....

Carolinita
05-17-2005, 01:46 AM
Nivrana wrote a good song about Lithium.....
:lol: yeah, indeed!

"I'm so happy 'cause today
I've found my friends ...
They're in my head
I'm so ugly, but that's okay, 'cause so are you..."

:yeah:

avocadoe
05-17-2005, 02:14 AM
thanks B for the article. I like thinking about Marat, there is something in what they say about his character, the ups and downs, the big down following the big ups. He isn't going to change a lot without a full scale psychoanalysis, and even then, maybe just a little. But he'll rise again, maybe at the French, maybe at the AO next year, or the US Open. Or maybe he'll pull the totally unexpected and win Wimbledon. He needs i and the French to have the Safin Slam :)

uNIVERSE mAN
05-17-2005, 04:58 AM
what's so hard to understand about the guy? it's easy. He gets pissed off because he can't crush players like Roddick/Federer etc. in the early rounds.

Carolinita
05-17-2005, 05:06 AM
:rolleyes: ...and I just wonder why does this guy hate so much Safin?

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 05:07 AM
Wyvern, NYTF:

Thanks for the responses. I guess it sounds strange because if Marat were from the US (and was descended from American-born grandparents) we wouldn't say "Oh this guy is not an ethnic American, he is Muslim, Asian or Arab). He would just be American with an ethnic heritage, as with everyone else except Native Americans.

Even in, say, France, you wouldn't say "Hey Marat isn't an ethnic Frenchman..."

So, what gives non-Tatar Russians the right to say they are "ethnic Russians"? Aren't they really ethnic Slavs who make up the majority of Russians? Sorry, I claim ignorance on Russia in general.

CassL
05-17-2005, 05:11 AM
:rolleyes: ...and I just wonder why does this guy hate so much Safin?

Ha! I bet he's just pissed that Safin defeated his jesus Fed. :D :devil:

ATPTOUR
05-17-2005, 05:17 AM
Tatars are not Slavs, they are a Turkic people which is one difference, also the religious aspect is different as well the vast majority of Russians are Orthodox and the Tatars just like Marat are nominally Muslim. They came from the Ural mountains and in some places mixed in with others.

They live in Russia and other places, but race and ethnicity are 2 different things.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 05:19 AM
Tatars are not Slavs, they are a Turkic people which is one difference, also the religious aspect is different as well the vast majority of Russians are Orthodox and the Tatars just like Marat are nominally Muslim. They came from the Ural mountains and in some places mixed in with others.

They live in Russia and other places, but race and ethnicity are 2 different things.
Yes, but my question is what is an "ethnic Russian"? Isn't that a misnomer? Should it be "ethnic Slav"?

ATPTOUR
05-17-2005, 05:31 AM
Yes, but my question is what is an "ethnic Russian"? Isn't that a misnomer? Should it be "ethnic Slav"?

Considering not all Slavs are the same, then how could that term to be used? Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Croatians, Bulgarians and Russians are all Slavs, but they are not the same people. One is Eastern which includes Russians and Ukranians, another is Western which is Czechs, Slovaks, Poles and Sorbs, the other is Southern Serbs, Croats, Slovenes.

It's like the English, Germans, Dutch are in one branch of Germanic peoples and Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are in another, they are both of the Germanic however they are different branches.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 05:59 AM
Considering not all Slavs are the same, then how could that term to be used? Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Croatians, Bulgarians and Russians are all Slavs, but they are not the same people. One is Eastern which includes Russians and Ukranians, another is Western which is Czechs, Slovaks, Poles and Sorbs, the other is Southern Serbs, Croats, Slovenes.

It's like the English, Germans, Dutch are in one branch of Germanic peoples and Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are in another, they are both of the Germanic however they are different branches.

Yes, I understand this. However, I guess what I'm trying to get at is "Russian" an ethnic group? Marat has always said he is Muslim but Russian. This makes better sense to me than to say he is not "ethnic Russian".

I've never heard of anyone described as "ethnic [insert country name]. You wouldn't say, using your examples, someone is ethnic English, German, Dutch or Swedish, Dane or Norwegian.

NYCtennisfan
05-17-2005, 06:00 AM
Wyvern, NYTF:

Thanks for the responses. I guess it sounds strange because if Marat were from the US (and was descended from American-born grandparents) we wouldn't say "Oh this guy is not an ethnic American, he is Muslim, Asian or Arab). He would just be American with an ethnic heritage, as with everyone else except Native Americans.


Well, here in America it is kind of the same thing don't you think TF even if we give out hyphenated names? Caucasian people aren't normally referred to as Irish-Americans or German-Americans or Scottish-Americans unless they are celebrating some kind of heritage festival. Usually they are just "white" and, I think, subconsciously thought of as the "standard" Americans. I know from travels in the Middle-East and Asia, when you mention Americans, people automatically assume a white person. When I talked to people in India, American was synonomous with "white" while blacks were "blacks". They didn't picture blacks as Americans. It wasn't anything racist, it was just what is subconsicously (or consciously) projected by the media that comes out of this country and because simply whites still form a sizable majority of the population here. A guy whose grandparents are from China is still almost always referred to as Asian-American or Chinese-American but someone whose great-grandparents are from Ireland may be but usually is not be referred to as Irish-American.

I know it is not the same as the Tatar/ethnic Russian divide but I believe it is similar.

Action Jackson
05-17-2005, 06:26 AM
Yes, I understand this. However, I guess what I'm trying to get at is "Russian" an ethnic group? Marat has always said he is Muslim but Russian. This makes better sense to me than to say he is not "ethnic Russian".

I've never heard of anyone described as "ethnic [insert country name]. You wouldn't say, using your examples, someone is ethnic English, German, Dutch or Swedish, Dane or Norwegian.

If you understand it, how is Russian not an ethnic group? Marat is a Tatar, but one living in Russia and TL explained it clearly with his grandparents as an example.

If you want to use the above criteria then the indigenous people who live in Finland, Sweden, Russia and Norway are not ethnic Finns etc etc, they have lived there for years and while citizens of the particular country and speak the language do not share the same ethnicity.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 06:45 AM
Well, here in America it is kind of the same thing don't you think TF even if we give out hyphenated names? Caucasian people aren't normally referred to as Irish-Americans or German-Americans or Scottish-Americans unless they are celebrating some kind of heritage festival. Usually they are just "white" and, I think, subconsciously thought of as the "standard" Americans. I know from travels in the Middle-East and Asia, when you mention Americans, people automatically assume a white person. When I talked to people in India, American was synonomous with "white" while blacks were "blacks". They didn't picture blacks as Americans. It wasn't anything racist, it was just what is subconsicously (or consciously) projected by the media that comes out of this country and because simply whites still form a sizable majority of the population here. A guy whose grandparents are from China is still almost always referred to as Asian-American or Chinese-American but someone whose great-grandparents are from Ireland may be but usually is not be referred to as Irish-American.

I know it is not the same as the Tatar/ethnic Russian divide but I believe it is similar.
Yes, but just because people think of things in a certain way, doesn't mean it is so factually.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 06:49 AM
If you understand it, how is Russian not an ethnic group? Marat is a Tatar, but one living in Russia and TL explained it clearly with his grandparents as an example.

If you want to use the above criteria then the indigenous people who live in Finland, Sweden, Russia and Norway are not ethnic Finns etc etc, they have lived there for years and while citizens of the particular country and speak the language do not share the same ethnicity.

I think people are confusing geography with ethnicity. Just because a majority of Russians are of Slavic ethnicity doesn't mean that they claim the term "Russian" exclusively. Just as with the argument that NYTF raises, just because you're white in America (and being the majority ethnic group) means that you exclusively have the right to the term "American".

Action Jackson
05-17-2005, 07:00 AM
I think people are confusing geography with ethnicity. Just because a majority of Russians are of Slavic ethnicity doesn't mean that they claim the term "Russian" exclusively. Just as with the argument that NYTF raises, just because you're white in America (and being the majority ethnic group) means that you exclusively have the right to the term "American".

I am not confusing anything of the sort actually. Here is an explanation as what ethnicity is it in basic terms it refers to aspects of relationships between groups which consider themselves, and are regarded by others, as being culturally distinctive. In this case Tatars in Russia and Russians definitely fit that case. Both groups are citizens of the same country, but are not of the same ethnicity.

mer
05-17-2005, 07:10 AM
I am not confusing anything of the sort actually. Here is an explanation as what ethnicity is it in basic terms it refers to aspects of relationships between groups which consider themselves, and are regarded by others, as being culturally distinctive. In this case Tatars in Russia and Russians definitely fit that case. Both groups are citizens of the same country, but are not of the same ethnicity.

In fact there are many ethnical groups in Russia. I dare say that most of the Tatars and others non-russians (ethnicaly) born in Moscow and other big cities are not culturally distinctive from ethnical russians and they actually consider themselves russians.
(At least that is true for my Tatar friends ;) )

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 07:38 AM
So, specifically, "Russian" is an ethnic group?

mer
05-17-2005, 07:43 AM
So, specifically, "Russian" is an ethnic group?

The major ethnical group in Russia

Action Jackson
05-17-2005, 07:49 AM
So, specifically, "Russian" is an ethnic group?

Of course it is.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 07:56 AM
Thanks Mer for your replies.

I would say thank you too, GWH, but that comes with an asterix...do you have to answer everything as if everyone should think like you? It gets tiresome sometimes. Just reply "Yes" instead of "Of course"...

Action Jackson
05-17-2005, 08:03 AM
I would say thank you too, GWH, but that comes with an asterix...do you have to answer everything as if everyone should think like you? It gets tiresome sometimes. Just reply "Yes" instead of "Of course"...

Not everyone should think like me at all TF, mer didn't and lots don't.

I gave quite a few reasons as to why Russians were an ethnic group along with a lot of other ethnic groups as well. If you didn't think that was the case then was didn't you offer an alternative as to why the Russians wouldn't be an ethnic group.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 08:09 AM
It's not your reasons that I have a problem with. It's how you give your answers.

mer
05-17-2005, 08:12 AM
Russia has one of the widest varieties of ethnic groups in the world, but ethnic Russians form the vast majority, or about 80 percent, of the population. The non-Russian population constitutes just under 20 percent of the total, with the largest minority, the Tatars, making up only about 4 percent. Ukrainians and Chuvash are the only other minorities constituting more than 1 percent of the population. Other minorities include Belarusians, Germans, Bashkirs, and Jews (considered an ethnic group in Russia).

..

hablovah19
05-17-2005, 08:24 AM
Considering not all Slavs are the same, then how could that term to be used? Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Croatians, Bulgarians and Russians are all Slavs, but they are not the same people. One is Eastern which includes Russians and Ukranians, another is Western which is Czechs, Slovaks, Poles and Sorbs, the other is Southern Serbs, Croats, Slovenes.

It's like the English, Germans, Dutch are in one branch of Germanic peoples and Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are in another, they are both of the Germanic however they are different branches.

thanks for the explanation!! makes sense :yeah:

NYCtennisfan
05-17-2005, 09:57 AM
GWH, I love the fact that you are on this board and all the knowledge you bring but it sometimes appears that you speak condescendingly to towards other posters. Is it really necessary? :)

Bibir
05-17-2005, 09:57 AM
For occidental people Safin is weird because he's russian, but for Russian people Safin is weird because he's Tatar. :o

My parents are russian but I was born in France, people call me "french" and I consider myself as a french...I don't think people here would say "oh, she's not french she's an ethnic slavic" :shrug:

Davydenko comment is disturbing:

“Careful! Marat isn’t Russian. He’s a Tatar”. So what? What does it change? “Well, he’s a bit weird. Me for instance, I prefer to play doubles with Russians. I play with Andreev”.

Davydenko the ukranian considers himself more russian than Safin?

Action Jackson
05-17-2005, 10:06 AM
For occidental people Safin is weird because he's russian, but for Russian people Safin is weird because he's Tatar. :o

My parents are russian but I was born in France, people call me "french" and I consider myself as a french...I don't think people here would say "oh, she's not french she's an ethnic slavic" :shrug:

Yes, there is a Slovak family that have been in my hometown for 3 generations they are still ethnically Slovak, even though the only thing Slovak about them are there names. They might have Norwegian passports and the like, but they are still considered Slovak, to me it's not important, but many people aren't like that.

Bibir
05-17-2005, 11:27 AM
Yes, there is a Slovak family that have been in my hometown for 3 generations they are still ethnically Slovak, even though the only thing Slovak about them are there names. They might have Norwegian passports and the like, but they are still considered Slovak, to me it's not important, but many people aren't like that.
You live in Australia right? There are many cultural and ethnic groups..Do you consider yourself as an australian or not?

Russia is such a big country between two continents and there are so many ethnic groups (called MINORITY groups).
I don't believe in "pure-bred" nationality especially in the russian empire.

Adman
05-17-2005, 11:32 AM
My favourite part is when Lundgren said “We must do everything to put him back on the right way” :worship:

Peter believes in him...and that's very important.

I think that is a great thing when the player is having a hard time on court that the coach supports them whatever the circumstances.

mandoura
05-17-2005, 11:45 AM
For occidental people Safin is weird because he's russian, but for Russian people Safin is weird because he's Tatar. :o

My parents are russian but I was born in France, people call me "french" and I consider myself as a french...I don't think people here would say "oh, she's not french she's an ethnic slavic" :shrug:

Davydenko comment is disturbing:



Davydenko the ukranian considers himself more russian than Safin?

I agree with you completely on this Bea. Ethnicity/race/origin is never brought up unless it is to brag or degrade, depending on the point one wants to make. It is never used in a-matter-of-fact way. Yes, Davydenko's comment is disturbing, pretty much so.

I have Turkish blood on both my mother and father sides. I've never been to Turkey, nor them. We don't speak a word of Turkish. Only our looks give us away: we are very fair compared to the darker "pure" Egyptian. I consider myself purely Egyptian. I've never been called ethnically Turkish. It would drive me mad if it happens.

mer
05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
I don't believe in "pure-bred" nationality especially in the russian empire.

So true :worship:

Hoostie
05-17-2005, 12:09 PM
You live in Australia right? There are many cultural and ethnic groups..Do you consider yourself as an australian or not?

Australia is considered a multi-cultural nation. We celebrate the fact that we have many Australians from different countries and cultural backgrounds.

In saying that, my ex boyfriend is aboriginal. He aboriginal first before he is Australian. Even though aboriginals are Australian. Does that make sense????

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 02:17 PM
For occidental people Safin is weird because he's russian, but for Russian people Safin is weird because he's Tatar. :o

My parents are russian but I was born in France, people call me "french" and I consider myself as a french...I don't think people here would say "oh, she's not french she's an ethnic slavic" :shrug:

Davydenko comment is disturbing:



Davydenko the ukranian considers himself more russian than Safin?
Yes! I think you are getting to what I was trying to say and failed miserably.

Tennis Fool
05-17-2005, 02:19 PM
..

lThanks for this. Just to add from Wikipedia:

Russians (Русские - Russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group, primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries.

Never thought of Russians as an ethnic group. Learn something every day :)

Space Cowgirl
05-17-2005, 08:10 PM
Wow, this has been educational! Russia sounds very interesting with its various ethnic groups. Do the ethnic Germans speak German or Russian normally? How did they end up so far away from 'home'?

mer
05-17-2005, 09:26 PM
Wow, this has been educational! Russia sounds very interesting with its various ethnic groups. Do the ethnic Germans speak German or Russian normally? How did they end up so far away from 'home'?

Germans came to russia in 18-th century. After 200 years of living there they speak russian of course.

btw the Patriarch of Russian Orthodox Church Alexii II is ethnic German...

TennisLurker
05-17-2005, 09:53 PM
When Catherine the Great (she was German) became Queen in Russia, she invited Germans to colonize the Volga river valley, she promised them lands, freedon from military service and religious tolerance.

Bibir
05-17-2005, 11:26 PM
Do you know Vladimir the saint? the prince who commited fratricide and had 5 wives and over 1000 concubines..He is the one who who created the russian orthodox church.

The legend tells that Vladimir was a pagan and suddenly became interested in religion (military issues). He sent emissaries to gather information on the various religions practised including Islam Judaism and Christianity...impressed by the splendors of the Greek liturgy he chose Christianity (That's a good reason Vlad! :p ) and asked the hand of the princess of the Byzantine Empire.

Vladimir destroyed all pagan idols and built schools and churches to educate his people and spread Christianity throughout the Russian-Slavic territories.

mer
05-18-2005, 05:17 AM
It's time to rename this thread :lol:

Bibir
05-18-2005, 02:46 PM
I had my cultural moment yesterday...It doesn't happen that often. :)

ys
05-18-2005, 05:01 PM
Good read.. The best of this article , I think, is an insight by Rosset, an analogy between Safin and Kafelnikov.. I agree with that wholeheartedly. Kafelnikov also had the same seasonal pattern, playing his best in Australia and then going to shameful losing streaks up to Roland Garros.. With no love lost to Wimbledon, with occasionally very good US hardcourt seasons, and then indoor monstrousness.. As much as different their games are ( apart of their backhands and all court play ), they have very similar patterns.

They are both Russians which really is very different mentality.. And they are both Aquariuses, which adds even more to being prone to a mental rollercoaster, to those long ups and downs, to those silly emotions on the courts.. I am a Russian Aquarius, sometimes I can almost physically feel what these two guys feel on court.. Psychologically , I think I am very similar.. Even in tennis matches that I play it is almost always extremes and streakiness - I am either rock solid, and focused and play my best, or there is nothing - nothing I feel I can do to beat someone I should be beating handily - simply because at that moment , due to some odd reason, my heart is not on the court, and no matter how hard I try, how much I push myself, my focus will still slip away from the ball..

ys
05-18-2005, 05:07 PM
Another thing that they always avoid to mention.. Yes, Fed won tons of events, reached #1.. Still, he made only as many GS finals as Safin did. As many GS finals as Hewitt did. Only that Hewitt lost two to superior player. And Marat tanked one final and exhausted himself before another one. All difference between the careers Federer and Safin at this point is the outcome of one single match - their AO 2004 finals. Take that match from Fed, give it to Safin - they are even. One match. And here Fed is fulfilling his potential , and Safin is wasting his career. And the difference is ... one match.. Maybe then Federer is not as talented after all.. :lol:

mer
05-18-2005, 05:48 PM
ys, even being a Marat's fan I think it's just ridiculous what you said
If you are kidding that way... :tape:

Puschkin
05-18-2005, 05:56 PM
All difference between the careers Federer and Safin at this point is the outcome of one single match is ...

Career titles- RF:28
Career titles- MS: 15

I like Marat, but numbers don't lie ;)

Skyward
05-18-2005, 06:29 PM
Career titles- RF:28
Career titles- MS: 15

I like Marat, but numbers don't lie ;)

For ys only GS have a meaning.

I think both waisted at least one year of their careers. Federer- 2002( at GS), and Safin-2003.

Puschkin
05-18-2005, 08:05 PM
I think both waisted at least one year of their careers. Federer- 2002( at GS), and Safin-2003.

Marat was injured for the most of 2003, that is maybe a wasted year, but not a year HE wasted.

Skyward
05-18-2005, 08:10 PM
Marat was injured for the most of 2003, that is maybe a wasted year, but not a year HE wasted.

Agree

ys
05-18-2005, 08:40 PM
For ys only GS have a meaning.

Yes, I understand what tennis glory is about.. It is definitely not about winning rotterdams and gstaads..

Skyward
05-18-2005, 08:46 PM
Yes, I understand what tennis glory is about.. It is definitely not about winning rotterdams and gstaads..

Well, yes and no. If all players adopted your mentality, the ATP tour wouldn't exist. Besides, Safin has his share of glorious wins in Taskent and St. Pete

Space Cowgirl
05-18-2005, 08:46 PM
ys, stop being such a dope, the tennis season does not consist of only four tournaments

maratski
05-18-2005, 08:50 PM
Yes, I understand what tennis glory is about.. It is definitely not about winning rotterdams and gstaads..

YS rotterdam happens to be a good tournament! For the rest I don't have much to say ;)

Puschkin
05-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Yes, I understand what tennis glory is about.. It is definitely not about winning rotterdams and gstaads..
For a certain player winning Gstaad or (more important) Basel may have a meaning worth the effort, even if I agree with you: Roger would not exchange his Wimbledon titels for them. The same is probably true for Spanish players in Barcelona and/or Madrid and many others wanting to do well in their home tourneys.

WyveN
05-19-2005, 03:00 AM
Take that match from Fed, give it to Safin - they are even. One match.

But 2 weeks ago you said "Wimbledon is the biggest one by far". IF Safin won the AO match he would have 2 AO and a USO to Rogers 2 Wimbledons and a USO so how are they even according to your theories?
You have to be consistent or you end up looking like a troll.

ys
05-19-2005, 03:40 AM
But 2 weeks ago you said "Wimbledon is the biggest one by far". IF Safin won the AO match he would have 2 AO and a USO to Rogers 2 Wimbledons and a USO so how are they even according to your theories?
You have to be consistent or you end up looking like a troll.

Sure you are right. That was unnecessary consession to All-Slams-are-equal" flock. Sure, Roger would still have been a greater player for Top 1% of tennis fans in terms of understanding tennis. But for 95% of tennis fans 3 Slams are worth 3 Slams. Of course, remaining 4% are MTF's nuts thinking that gstaads or even montecarlos are of comparable importance to Slams and mean more than just ranking points and money.

NYCtennisfan
05-19-2005, 03:58 AM
Sure you are right. That was unnecessary consession to All-Slams-are-equal" flock. Sure, Roger would still have been a greater player for Top 1% of tennis fans in terms of understanding tennis. But for 95% of tennis fans 3 Slams are worth 3 Slams. Of course, remaining 4% are MTF's nuts thinking that gstaads or even montecarlos are of comparable importance to Slams and mean more than just ranking points and money.

People on this board ARE the top 1% of tennis fans.

ys
05-19-2005, 07:20 AM
People on this board ARE the top 1% of tennis fans.

:rolls: Only maybe top 1% among those having no life.. :lol:

lau
05-19-2005, 12:09 PM
:rolls: Only maybe top 1% among those having no life.. :lol:
I agree :haha: