Drugs: John van Lottum accuses Canas, Puerta. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Drugs: John van Lottum accuses Canas, Puerta.

Zamboni
07-22-2002, 03:16 PM
In BN/DeStem, a local newspaper in the Netherlands, there was today an article about drugs in tennis. First it summed up what we already knew: all the fuss of the last weeks.

But then it had some quotes from John van Lottum. He is known as a guy who's really anti-drugs, he even turned his back to Chela 2 years ago after a match when Chela was trying to make his way back up after his suspension.

Van Lottum said: "I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the top100 uses. The risk you get caught is really small, if you do it smart. And if it happens you get a small suspension. And the tennisworld stays nice for you. Juan-Ignacio Chela is crowd puller in Amersfoort, Guillermo Coria got a wildcard in Monte Carlo. And Adidas signed Chela. A big shame. These guys should be on the front page with a big picture, to make clear they don't play it fair.

Colleagues who were around the 60th place in the rankings, like me, dissapeared a couple of months from the circuit. They came back with a complete different body. "

He also names names: "I have big questionmarks at Guillermo Canas. I played against him on hardcourt, and after a set he was totally tired. He always had small injuries and got fast cramp. Now he is the fittest player in the circuit after Lleyton Hewitt and he makes the 4oth place in the rankings. How is that possible? Mariano Puerta is another example. He's number 300 of theworld, is gone for a while. Comes back and makes it #30. His raking gets worse, he's away for a while and gets to #30 again. His father is the guy who gave the drugs to Chela. Well, then one and one is two, right?"

Paal Haarhuis also has something to say: "Until a year or 5 ago, I thought tennis was kinda clean of drugs. But at one moment you hear too much around you. About players who don't use for a while, cos there are all kind of side-effects. Due to these stories I got aware that also a tennisplayer can benefit from certain stuff.

Then there's a story about Courier in the article, which says that when Courier suggested that the European players (he meant especially the Spanish claycourters) used drugs, the ATP told him that he could better quit himself, cos he would get caught at a drugstest.

If you speak Dutch, you can check the article at
article (http://www.bndestem.nl/CDA/regioportal/0,2078,1331__1157558_,00.html)

Chloe le Bopper
07-22-2002, 03:36 PM
I see nothing wrong with making accusations, but I do see something wrong with publically speculating when you have no evidence.

When did Courier make those claims? Anyone know about those?

tennischick
07-22-2002, 03:57 PM
i wish they would stop picking on the Argentines. if there is drug use out there i'm sure the Americans are as guilty as anyone! :mad:

Zamboni
07-22-2002, 06:02 PM
Rebbeca, the article said Courier said it during AO '99

Daniel
07-22-2002, 07:20 PM
pfffff @ the article

Argentines always get accused of that :sad: :sad:

:( :( :( :(

Pea
07-22-2002, 09:32 PM
PFFF! Look at agassi!

Dissident
07-22-2002, 10:48 PM
:rolleyes:

Lucas Arg
07-23-2002, 01:23 AM
Van Lottum sucks he is a sore loser:fiery:

Go Argentineans:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Becool
07-23-2002, 04:09 AM
I'm sure he is enving Guillermo's skills..

When he said that he is the second fittest player behind Lleyton, so why he doesnt accuse Lleyton also? Cause he is number one player?? :rolleyes:

kazblah
07-23-2002, 07:03 AM
stop picking on the argentineans.

irma
07-23-2002, 08:05 AM
at least he gives names but still what's his prove?

Pea
07-23-2002, 05:58 PM
I don't understand why no one has the guts to accuse agassi of any doping. I mean he comes from hardly being a grand slam contender anymore to winning the French in 1999 with his "fitness regime". Please, tooo suspicious! No wonder he didn't like to talk about his exercises and how he "got" sooo fit.

Catriel
11-24-2002, 01:13 AM
What a stupid

Chloe le Bopper
11-24-2002, 02:09 AM
I forgot all about Courier targetting the Spaniards.

I knew that I had a good reason that I didn't like him - that must have been it.

Hurley
11-24-2002, 06:56 AM
Wouldn't we know? Isn't there testing?

If there isn't a deep testing program, then the ATP and ITF are idiots. And if there is, then JVL shouldn't be making any comments.

claudine140
11-24-2002, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
I see nothing wrong with making accusations, but I do see something wrong with publically speculating when you have no evidence.

When did Courier make those claims? Anyone know about those?
it was just before he retired when he said those things

Nimi
11-24-2002, 12:07 PM
What an idiot :fiery:

Andromeda
11-24-2002, 04:45 PM
Canas should sue his ass for all he's got for making such defamatory remarks.

joanbalcells
11-24-2002, 06:06 PM
perhaos canas doesn't want to raise the issue for various reasons e.g. (a) yes he has been known to dabble or (b) not giving more life to these stories by getting embroiled.

i often think that it's unlikely for somebody to be willing to go on record as naming names unless they are absolutely certain.

as fans, we're not in a position to know. as a business, the atp are unlikely to make moral judgements but business decisions.

maratski
11-24-2002, 07:21 PM
I haven't heard about this in Holland but it's a stupid article. There's no proof and they're just pathetic accusations. It looks like he's jealous with their rankings. Van Lottum has never reached anything in tennis and can't stand that a few hard working Argentinians do climb up the rankings.

Catriel
11-26-2002, 05:00 AM
Chela and Coria blamed their doctors for not advising that they were taking something with any dangerous ingredients.

But see what Chela did. He rides almost 800 potitions after this, we won (I canīt remember) 8 challengers in a row in 2001 and now he is in the top 30.
Is Chela still using drugs?

We have the Maradona karma over us, DIEGO said "cocaine is a social drug, and donīt judge the sport, or the contry, just the man".

Ma. Estefania
11-27-2002, 09:32 PM
All what he has said are just something pretty stupid.
He doesn't have any evidence.....come on....what? a player can't improve in 1 or 2 years because then it's pretty sure that they have taken drugs?!
Damn, now I hate that Van Lottum...how dare him....and why does he take again the argentines?? Damn.....

jrm
11-28-2002, 09:38 AM
if anyone should know if the player has changed than that would defentely be another tennis player. I like most of the Argentine players but then again i would not be suprise if the John's accusations were right. I don't think it's called being a sore loser just "why do i bother if other use substances". Also Lindsay Davenport has always been in favour that there should be more investigations about drug abuse in women's tennis. That statement didn't grow on tree - she feels there are some misconducts especially when you are playing someone at one point but the next time you meet them they are completely different.

Ma. Estefania
11-28-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by jrm
Also Lindsay Davenport has always been in favour that there should be more investigations about drug abuse in women's tennis.

Yes, she's agree with that, just as I; but Lindsay didn't name players, specially to players that never failed a drugs test as Caņas, so why do he have to name him?:mad: Maybe is ok if he names players as Chela or Coria, becuase, well, yes, they failed those tests, but Caņas hasn't.:mad:

jrm
11-30-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Ma. Estefania


Yes, she's agree with that, just as I; but Lindsay didn't name players, specially to players that never failed a drugs test as Caņas, so why do he have to name him?:mad: Maybe is ok if he names players as Chela or Coria, becuase, well, yes, they failed those tests, but Caņas hasn't.:mad:


since he used the name maybe he knows something we don't. Believe if anyone knows who went through some changes are players themselves and just like everywhere news about this travels fast - hey who was the male tennis player at this french open who supossed to be positive ?

tennisvideos
12-01-2002, 02:02 AM
I think there are many niaive people who think there are no drugs in tennis. Of course there are drugs and I would suggest there are many players on them. Athletes, their doctors and advisors know how to take drugs and when to get off them in time for competition and testing.

I know of a few athletes (including tennis players) who have indicated it is common knowledge in their fields that there are many athletes and players on substances.

It's just a shame that the tennis and sporting authorities don't take a tougher stand on it. But I guess it's not that simple, there are always new substances made available that can't be tested for some time. So it's a tricky situation. And it wouldn't just be Argentines doing it, it would be pretty widespread...

SwissMister1
06-22-2005, 08:56 PM
Could John van Lottum see the future? If so, why didn't he use it to improve his tennis skills?

Purple Rainbow
06-22-2005, 09:04 PM
Van Lottum is capable of playing very decent tennis, however he's perpetually injured (as are most Dutchies at the moment).
Thanks for bumping this thread, mate. Interesting read!

jole
06-22-2005, 09:07 PM
Back + Van Lottum = ouch.

SwissMister1
06-22-2005, 09:08 PM
Thanks for bumping this thread, mate. Interesting read!

Just happened to stumble across it in the archive, right next to a "Should Sampras retire" thread that was taking place right before USO 2002. :D

Hagar
06-22-2005, 09:29 PM
I've heard that Puerta had taken medication for his asthma.

NYCtennisfan
06-22-2005, 09:30 PM
Just happened to stumble across it in the archive, right next to a "Should Sampras retire" thread that was taking place right before USO 2002.

LMAO!! You gotta love (and fear) the archives.

Purple Rainbow
06-22-2005, 09:32 PM
Should Sampras Retire, sounds like a thread started by Karstenbraash#1

mitalidas
06-22-2005, 09:36 PM
I don't understand why no one has the guts to accuse agassi of any doping. I mean he comes from hardly being a grand slam contender anymore to winning the French in 1999 with his "fitness regime". Please, tooo suspicious! No wonder he didn't like to talk about his exercises and how he "got" sooo fit.

agassi was tested some 11 or 12 times in 15 tournaments a few years ago
a few of them were random (not during a tournament)
some of the tests were blood samples not just urine

vincayou
06-22-2005, 09:37 PM
Funny that the bad guy in this thread is Van Lottum and that the good guys become Canas and Chela.

If Canas has cheated, he must be punished harshly. And I was quite a fan of him.

Julio1974
06-22-2005, 09:39 PM
Another baised article with some statements from un unknown, unskilled and envious player.

mitalidas
06-22-2005, 09:41 PM
It is quite amazing I have to say that von Lottum was able to correctly pick out two of the players a year or more before they were found to have failed dope tests (puerta and Canas).

I'm alright with innocent until proven guilty, but when players come back 3-4 months later all full of stamina and of incredible strength, I would also be suspicous like he was

Julio1974
06-22-2005, 09:48 PM
It is quite amazing I have to say that von Lottum was able to correctly pick out two of the players a year or more before they were found to have failed dope tests (puerta and Canas).

I'm alright with innocent until proven guilty, but when players come back 3-4 months later all full of stamina and of incredible strength, I would also be suspicous like he was

If you want to suspect: Why don't you suspect about Williams' sisters muscles? why don't you suspect about Agassi running as crazy at his age ? Talking about comebacks, why don't you suspect of Capriati?

Chloe le Bopper
06-22-2005, 09:57 PM
Funny that the bad guy in this thread is Van Lottum and that the good guys become Canas and Chela.


Hindsight. It's wonderful, isn't?

I don't take back anything that I said in this thread. Publically speculating when you have no evidence (at least that none that you plan on sharing) is wrong.

Mind you, this wasn't as bad as the time that Volchtkov decided to share that he felt the entire Argentine team was on drugs. That was pure class.

Julio1974
06-22-2005, 10:01 PM
Funny that the bad guy in this thread is Van Lottum and that the good guys become Canas and Chela.

If Canas has cheated, he must be punished harshly. And I was quite a fan of him.

There is something contradictory in his statements. First, he says that he wouldn't be surprised if 50% of players are on drugs. However, he only named Argentine players and the ATP only punished Argentine players. Isn't it weird?

onewoman74
06-22-2005, 10:03 PM
It's sport people...there is drug use in any sport that needs speed and endurance. It's a fact of life these days. Wake Up!! If one player knows another is using -then he needs to keep up so they can be a level playing field. that's the way it is folks.

I'm going to give Canas the benefit of the doubt, but some people they need drugs to improve their performance...don't be fooled by the nice guy routine...it's a sport, it's competition and making money is a huge incentive...THINK ABOUT IT!!

onewoman74
06-22-2005, 10:05 PM
If you want to suspect: Why don't you suspect about Williams' sisters muscles? why don't you suspect about Agassi running as crazy at his age ? Talking about comebacks, why don't you suspect of Capriati?

We still don't know how Capriati came back to win those grand slams...I still suspect she was using, but people would rather play dumb!!!

Chloe le Bopper
06-22-2005, 10:18 PM
Canas deserves the benefit of the doubt but Capriati doesn't?

lalaland
06-22-2005, 10:36 PM
It is quite amazing I have to say that von Lottum was able to correctly pick out two of the players a year or more before they were found to have failed dope tests (puerta and Canas).

I'm alright with innocent until proven guilty, but when players come back 3-4 months later all full of stamina and of incredible strength, I would also be suspicous like he was

I didn't notice that Canas was suspended for doping, when did that happen? I only heard about Coria, Chela and Puerta got suspended because of doping.

liptea
06-22-2005, 11:06 PM
I forgot all about Courier targetting the Spaniards.

I knew that I had a good reason that I didn't like him - that must have been it.

what are you talking about?

oneandonlyhsn
06-22-2005, 11:30 PM
I must be the only one who agrees with his remarks. I dont necessarily think he should have mentioned any names, but imagine how discouraging it is for players who work so hard to be good and stay clean only to find out that a player who beat them was using something funny. Not only that, the accused player gets a suspension and comes back and plays in say 1 year.
I know that everyone deserves a 2nd chance but there will always be that cloud of suspicion around that player. So many athletes are finding ways of cheating the sysytem these days, and clean players are getting sick and frustrated of it.

Wow I didnt realize he made this comments in 2002, I guess he was right :eek:
I love Canas, and how much heart he shows but it does look suspicious when a diuretic shows up. It looks like he was trying to flush out something. I hope its a mistake, coz I like seeing him play but it does raise questions.

*Viva Chile*
06-22-2005, 11:43 PM
I've heard that Puerta had taken medication for his asthma.

Totally true, and this one is the reason why he was suspended the last time... Puerta's doctors didn't inform to the ATP that the medication had beclomethasone. Actually, Puerta is authorized for the ATP to take that medicine.

NicoFan
06-22-2005, 11:46 PM
Why does the ATP have it in for the Argentines??? Stop picking on them. I'm disgusted, and hope Canas is cleared soon.

oneandonlyhsn
06-23-2005, 12:20 AM
Why does the ATP have it in for the Argentines??? Stop picking on them. I'm disgusted, and hope Canas is cleared soon.

Well I'm sure the ATP goes through one by one and specifically targets the Argentines and places fakes substances in their samples. :rolleyes:

NYCtennisfan
06-23-2005, 01:03 AM
Well I'm sure the ATP goes through one by one and specifically targets the Argentines and places fakes substances in their samples.

Exactly. Look, people always have suspicions about certain players. At first, von Lottum looks like a jerk for saying these things and then, lo and behold, they come out to be true. I've seen in the past where posters would wonder if Nadal was on the juice because he is so physically developed at such a young age but he has been tested and cleared. Agassi has been tested and been cleared.

That being said, everyone deserves a second chance but it is easy for me to say being a non-competitor in this situation. It must be a lot more difficult to accept if you are an ordinary player who sees others advancing because they receive special assistance. That and we have to wait to see how the whole thing works itself out as it could be another botched drug test. Let's see how things develop.

mitalidas
06-23-2005, 01:04 AM
It is quite amazing I have to say that von Lottum was able to correctly pick out two of the players a year or more before they were found to have failed dope tests (puerta and Canas).
.



I didn't notice that Canas was suspended for doping, when did that happen? I only heard about Coria, Chela and Puerta got suspended because of doping.

but it doesn't say Canas was suspended for doping. Just that von Lottum was able to correctly pick out two players --puerta and canas-- way back in 2002, on suspicion of being doped; and that he was right
both have since been found to fail dope tests

Tennis Fool
08-09-2005, 02:07 AM
Bump.

Beginning to wonder who has the worse excuses: Argie tennis players are American baseball players.

disturb3d
08-09-2005, 02:28 AM
"I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the top100 uses"I've always had my doubts about Fed. He comes back from injury and is potentially untouchable.

Look at it this way; if Roger were to be caught taking illegal subs, it would be kept as secretive as possible. If the world found out that tennis's saviour was a fraud; then the state of tennis would be even more critical than before.

star
08-09-2005, 02:30 AM
Exactly. Look, people always have suspicions about certain players. At first, von Lottum looks like a jerk for saying these things and then, lo and behold, they come out to be true. I've seen in the past where posters would wonder if Nadal was on the juice because he is so physically developed at such a young age but he has been tested and cleared. Agassi has been tested and been cleared.

That being said, everyone deserves a second chance but it is easy for me to say being a non-competitor in this situation. It must be a lot more difficult to accept if you are an ordinary player who sees others advancing because they receive special assistance. That and we have to wait to see how the whole thing works itself out as it could be another botched drug test. Let's see how things develop.

Tested and cleared. You can't be tested once or twice and be cleared.

VanLottum is exactly correct. Players who go away for a couple of months and then come back with renewed vigor are suspect. It's the guys who are playing day in and day out who are less suspect. Cycling is part of steroid use. You go on and then you go off. If there is no out of competition testing, it's fairly easy to foil the tests. This has happened in field and track for years and years. Marion Jones never tested dirty either.

ugotlobbed
08-09-2005, 03:36 AM
tennis would suck without argentines

NYCtennisfan
08-09-2005, 03:54 AM
Tested and cleared. You can't be tested once or twice and be cleared.

VanLottum is exactly correct. Players who go away for a couple of months and then come back with renewed vigor are suspect. It's the guys who are playing day in and day out who are less suspect. Cycling is part of steroid use. You go on and then you go off. If there is no out of competition testing, it's fairly easy to foil the tests. This has happened in field and track for years and years. Marion Jones never tested dirty either.

Not looking good for Canas now. 2 years away from tennis is basically death for a career, especially at 30.

oneandonlyhsn
08-09-2005, 04:37 AM
I've always had my doubts about Fed. He comes back from injury and is potentially untouchable.

Look at it this way; if Roger were to be caught taking illegal subs, it would be kept as secretive as possible. If the world found out that tennis's saviour was a fraud; then the state of tennis would be even more critical than before.

:lol: at this statement, Fed when he came back after injury was barely winning matches if my memroy serves me correct

MariaV
08-09-2005, 06:57 AM
I've always had my doubts about Fed. He comes back from injury and is potentially untouchable.

Look at it this way; if Roger were to be caught taking illegal subs, it would be kept as secretive as possible. If the world found out that tennis's saviour was a fraud; then the state of tennis would be even more critical than before.
:rolleyes:

GonzoFan
08-09-2005, 08:15 AM
I've always had my doubts about Fed. He comes back from injury and is potentially untouchable.

Look at it this way; if Roger were to be caught taking illegal subs, it would be kept as secretive as possible. If the world found out that tennis's saviour was a fraud; then the state of tennis would be even more critical than before.

I don't know about Federer ... :rolleyes:
but I agree with you in the fact that if someone like Agassi, Federer, etc ... are caught using illegal subs, like you said it would be kept as secretive as possible

CooCooCachoo
08-09-2005, 10:03 AM
John was right then, and is right now.

stephB
08-09-2005, 10:20 AM
Van Lottum sucks he is a sore loser:fiery:

Go Argentineans:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

pffffffffft

stephB
08-09-2005, 10:22 AM
marijn, did you save the article somewhere? unfortunately i found your post in that moment....so i couldnt find it online anymore :(

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 10:27 AM
Tested and cleared. You can't be tested once or twice and be cleared.

VanLottum is exactly correct. Players who go away for a couple of months and then come back with renewed vigor are suspect. It's the guys who are playing day in and day out who are less suspect. Cycling is part of steroid use. You go on and then you go off. If there is no out of competition testing, it's fairly easy to foil the tests. This has happened in field and track for years and years. Marion Jones never tested dirty either.
Cycling is one of the most scrutinized sports. They get blood and urine tests a lot, announced and unannounced, during competition or during training and even when they are totally out of competition due to an injury.
Cyclists have to report where and when they will be, either for training, holidays, competition,...so that the ICU and the doping controllers can test them whenever, wherever.
Ullrich was snatched when he was out of competition with an injury and when he was out partying. He took some XTC party pills.
The trouble is that the doping agencies are always one step behind the doping sinners. Once they make a test that can trace a certain drug, the doping sinners will come up with the next untraceable drug.

Sad thing to say, but a clean sport is an illusion IMO.

CooCooCachoo
08-09-2005, 11:35 AM
Sorry Steph, I don't have the article saved. I only read it for the first time today, though I know he made comments just like the one in the article on TV.

nobama
08-09-2005, 11:47 AM
I've always had my doubts about Fed. He comes back from injury and is potentially untouchable.

Look at it this way; if Roger were to be caught taking illegal subs, it would be kept as secretive as possible. If the world found out that tennis's saviour was a fraud; then the state of tennis would be even more critical than before.
So what, we're supposed to give players like Canas the benefit of the doubt, even though they test positive, yet raise questions around someone like Fed who's been tested the most and has been found to be clean? :rolleyes:

Federer calls for end to Rusedski suspense
By John Roberts in Dubai
01 March 2004

[...]Roger Federer, the Wimbledon and Australian Open champion and world No 1, who may play Henman in the quarter-finals here, said: "I think it would be better if the [Rusedski verdict] came out now, then we wouldn't be talking about it all the time." He added: "I guess he knew that when he came out with that [statement] himself. I don't feel bad for Rusedski, because he knows what he's doing."

Federer was the most frequently drug-tested player on the ATP Tour last year: 21 times, with 20 of his tests (two of them blood tests for EPO) conducted at tournaments, and one done out of competition.

"I've no problem being tested all the time," Federer said. "The tests have been negative all the time so far. I'm not concerned because I know I'm not doing anything wrong. Now they are testing more for blood. I'm not a big fan of that, but I understand.

"It's in your own power what you're taking. I'm not taking water that's been standing on another table.

"I think the testing has been done very aggressively, in a good way. It is important to me that the sport stays clean. It has a good record." [...]

Agassi says tennis is clean (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/3570009.stm)
25 March, 2004
Andre Agassi believes it is almost impossible for any player to take banned drugs and not get caught. The American, who is on the ATP's drug task force, said the sport's rigorous testing system would catch cheats.

"I don't know how you could do it for a short time much less how you would work it long term. I don't know how you'd pull it off," said Agassi.

He added that he no longer takes any nutritional supplements because he cannot be certain of the content.

Agassi, who is playing at the Nasdaq-100 Open in Florida this week, cited the number of times that he, world number one Roger Federer and Andy Roddick had been tested in the past year.

"I got tested 20 times last year, Federer 23 times and Andy 20 - we test so extensively that we have absolutely removed the possibility of somebody taking drugs to obtain a strategic advantage," said Agassi.

"We're tested all year long plus three out of competition tests. We have done everything to remove the possibility of someone taking advantage of drugs."

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 12:28 PM
Federer was the most frequently drug-tested player on the ATP Tour last year: 21 times, with 20 of his tests (two of them blood tests for EPO) conducted at tournaments, and one done out of competition.


Interesting that the ATP targets him. He is not known as an ultra-fit player like canas or hrbaty, or an outrageously buffed player like nadal.

What dope are they looking for? the one that gives him brilliance in his head? They would be better served using their testing resources wisely.

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 12:33 PM
the argentines should quit the woe-is-me attitude!
The dude was caught it was an open secret b4 hand with VanLottum an Hewitt calling him out and so he should be punished as a lesson to all!

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 12:38 PM
Interesting that the ATP targets him. He is not known as an ultra-fit player like canas or hrbaty, or an outrageously buffed player like nadal.

What dope are they looking for? the one that gives him brilliance in his head? They would be better served using their testing resources wisely.

Surely you must be able to figure out by yourself why Federer is the most tested.

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 12:45 PM
Surely you must be able to figure out by yourself why Federer is the most tested.
:confused:

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 12:47 PM
Well duh. Who will be tested more: a challenger player who loses in the first round all the time, or a player who almost wins all the time?

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 12:50 PM
Surely you must be able to figure out by yourself why Federer is the most tested.
Surely you might have figured out that tennis is not a sport like cycling where everything depends on your physical stamina.

Is Federer winning because he is outlasting everyone, running around till the last point? He is neither the most suspiciously fit nor the most suspiciously buffed. No one disputes he needs to be tested. I am asking why he is the most tested.

Maybe Nadal should be -- he is the one who wins the highest number of matches on the most difficult surface, not to mention his physical structure which frankly, looks unnatural

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 12:55 PM
Surely you might have figured out that tennis is not a sport like cycling where everything depends on your physical stamina.

Is Federer winning because he is outlasting everyone, running around till the last point? He is neither the most suspiciously fit nor the most suspiciously buffed. No one disputes he needs to be tested. I am asking why he is the most tested.


Lol, this has nothing to do with how Federer wins.

Who's gonna be the most tested, a challenger player ranked 759 in the world or the number 1 player in the world?

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 12:57 PM
Lol, this has nothing to do with how Federer wins.

Who's gonna be the most tested, a challenger player ranked 759 in the world or the number 1 player in the world?

Yeah, Lol to you too.
Why jump from #1 in the world to #759 to make a foolish argument?
Lets stick to the Top 50 or even Top 10. You don't think Nadal --who wins a staggering number matches on clay where the physical effort is much more than on any other surface, and who is buffed like a steroid user might be, should be tested more than Federer?

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 01:01 PM
Yeah, Lol to you too.
Why jump from #1 in the world to #759 to make a foolish argument?
Lets stick to the Top 50 or even Top 10. You don't think Nadal --who wins a staggering number matches on clay where the physical effort is much more than on any other surface, and who is buffed like a steroid user might be, should be tested more than Federer?

I'm just pointing out that Federer was the most tested last year because he was the number 1 player in the world. Honestly, this is like 2 + 2 = 4, what is it that you don't get?

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 01:03 PM
well think about it like this federer goes very far in the tournies he play mostly winner or SF or QF. so he palys a rather large amount of tennis so they have more oppurtunity to test him than say marat who is defeated in the 2nd round n goes home
does that make sense? :confused:

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:04 PM
I'm just pointing out that Federer was the most tested last year because he was the number 1 player in the world. Honestly, this is like 2 + 2 = 4, what is it that you don't get?

I'm just pointing out that testing #1 the most is not necessarily the smartest thing to do, if a close #2 or #3 has many more indications that would point towards symptoms of doping, you know: physical stamina and physical structure. Honestly, what is it that you simply can't get?

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:06 PM
well think about it like this federer goes very far in the tournies he play mostly winner or SF or QF. so he palys a rather large amount of tennis so they have more oppurtunity to test him than say marat who is defeated in the 2nd round n goes home
does that make sense? :confused:
leave marat out of this. lets compare Federer and nadal this year-- if you had to test one more than the other, who would that be?

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 01:09 PM
this year i would obviously test nadal more because of the way he tore up the entire clay court season but last year definetely Federer

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:11 PM
this year i would obviously test nadal more because of the way he tore up the entire clay court season but last year definetely Federer
and I would completely agree. Even though, by some people's strange logic, Federer should be the one tested more even this year, because he is winning the most this year as well.

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 01:13 PM
leave marat out of this. lets compare Federer and nadal this year-- if you had to test one more than the other, who would that be?

We're talking about last year.

I'm just pointing out that testing #1 the most is not necessarily the smartest thing to do

The more you win, the more you get tested, this is only logic.

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 01:14 PM
Maybe Nadal should be -- he is the one who wins the highest number of matches on the most difficult surface, not to mention his physical structure which frankly, looks unnatural
Unnatural?
LOL

Defending Federer in this wild accusation thread is one thing but throwing wild accusations to the next player to deflect attention from your favourite is quite pointless, no?

Unnatural? Have you seen his family? His uncle Miguel Angel, his uncle Toni even, his uncle Rafael, his father? The nickname of his uncle Miguel Angel (ex prof. football player) was "the beast of Barcelona" and that had a lot to do with his strong and impressive physique
It's called having good genes!
Leave Nadal out of it.

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 01:14 PM
and I would completely agree. Even though, by some people's strange logic, Federer should be the one tested more even this year, because he is winning the most this year as well.

Look, the discussion was always about last year, and about who wins the most. Recently Nadal won a lot of matches, so yeah, that would make sense if he was tested the most.

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 01:18 PM
The more you win, the more you get tested, this is only logic.
Exactly. It's not because one player is tested the most, that you have reason to be suspicious. Guys who play a lot and who win a lot are tested a lot. It's as simple as that. No need to throw accusations at this simple fact.

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 01:19 PM
The more you win, the more you get tested, this is only logic.
personally i wouldnt bother with a druggie who even though he's juicing still cant win........ :rolls:

star
08-09-2005, 01:44 PM
I think it's logical to test more as one wins more.... more opportunities to test. I also think that guys who have tested dirty before should be tested more often. Even though Coria is one of my favorites, I think he should be tested more than others, and if found dirty, should have a harsh, even career ending suspension.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:47 PM
Look, the discussion was always about last year, and about who wins the most. Recently Nadal won a lot of matches, so yeah, that would make sense if he was tested the most.

Until 2 weeks ago, Federer was also the one who had won the most matches this year. by your logic he should have been the one tested the most this year as well.
And my point that it would have been stupid of the ATP to blindly target #1 because he is #1 and has won the most matches. If they just used very simple sense they would realize that he is not winning on sheer physical stamina.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:49 PM
Unnatural?
LOL

Defending Federer in this wild accusation thread is one thing but throwing wild accusations to the next player to deflect attention from your favourite is quite pointless, no?

Unnatural? Have you seen his family? His uncle Miguel Angel, his uncle Toni even, his uncle Rafael, his father? The nickname of his uncle Miguel Angel (ex prof. football player) was "the beast of Barcelona" and that had a lot to do with his strong and impressive physique
It's called having good genes!
Leave Nadal out of it.

Yes, it looks unnatural to me -- it is my opinion, how does it matter to my opinion what yours is? The guy is 19 years old and I think that this kind of bulking up looks odd. This is a discussion and I can choose who to or not to leave out of it --thanks!
Other posters agree that if they had to choose between who would be tested more this year --Federer or nadal-- it would be nadal. It does not take genius to figure that one out

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 01:52 PM
And my point that it would have been stupid of the ATP to blindly target #1 because he is #1 and has won the most matches. If they just used very simple sense they would realize that he is not winning on sheer physical stamina.

They don't target Federer, it's just, the more you win, the more opportunity you get to get tested.

Action Jackson
08-09-2005, 01:52 PM
They don't target Federer, it's just, the more you win, the more opportunity you get to get tested.

That's how it should work in theory.

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 01:54 PM
Yes, it looks unnatural to me -- it is my opinion, how does it matter to my opinion what yours is? The guy is 19 years old and I think that this kind of bulking up looks odd. This is a discussion and I can choose who to or not to leave out of it --thanks!
Other posters agree that if they had to choose between who would be tested more this year --Federer or nadal-- it would be nadal. It does not take genius to figure that one out

They don't target players judging at how they look like or how they win on court.

Anyway you really seem thick. You do realize each person is different? Nadal obviously has a genetic advantage, that doesn't mean he looks unnatural.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 01:58 PM
They don't target players judging at how they look like or how they win on court.

Anyway you really seem thick. You do realize each person is different? Nadal obviously has a genetic advantage, that doesn't mean he looks unnatural.

Do you know that for a fact that they don't target players based on anything but their ranking?
Let alone the genetic part- -- having the highest number of wins on clay, the most demanding surface, and being a close #2 is not reason enough to be tested the most? Get your thick head tested

skel1983
08-09-2005, 01:59 PM
My slant on this is. firstly someone posted if anyone is quilty it's the americans??????? that confused me somewhat because whatever drugs the like's of Ginepri,Fish,Spadea are taking must be the reversable drug that makes you weak and does the total opposite to what perforfance enhancing drugs are supposed to do!!!(that did make me laugh)

I think it is no coincidence that the main culprets are the guys who haven't got the big weapons and have to work hard at their games harder than powerful guys such as roddick and Safin.

Also someone suggested Federer is a prime suspect, (again that made me laugh) Why would Federer take drugs i think some people are under the impression these enhancing drugs all of a sudden give you the gift of a forehand or a great serve or even great volleys. I agree Federer's movement has improved masses over the last couple of years, but i think there is virtully no chance of him taking enhancing drugs.

I am not pointing the finger at the Argentines in paticular, but there games and there styles would put them under the most suspision as enhancing drugs would have the most benefit for these players, for example Coria is relativly small guy and usually gets blown away by players such as Roddick on the faster surfaces, these drugs would enhance his power and speed and movement, as the same with Canas i mean i am quite sure he is quilty, everything does seem to fall into place a guy of 25/26 who has no great individual shots comes back from a year of injury and rises to the top of the game within a short period of time. I dont know all the facts, but i think there is a lot of drug use in the game of tennis at the moment

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 02:02 PM
Yes, it looks unnatural to me -- it is my opinion, how does it matter to my opinion what yours is? The guy is 19 years old and I think that this kind of bulking up looks odd. This is a discussion and I can choose who to or not to leave out of it --thanks!

My opinion on this matter: It's just unnatural to you because you're not even bothering to think of a natural explanation behind his impressive physique and because you're just looking at an excuse to put him down for whatever reason (just a theory: jealous that he has received a lot of positive attention and the sort of attention you feel that Federer only deserves perhaps? Hey, I could be wrong of course...I see no reason to be jealous about that, if this is the case. Federer is still the number one in the minds of most people so there's no reason to get this defensive towards other players)

This is a discussion and I can choose who to or not to leave out of it --thanks!
Why did you tell others to leave Marat out of it, then?

Other posters agree that if they had to choose between who would be tested more this year --Federer or nadal-- it would be nadal. It does not take genius to figure that one out
Why are you so defensive about the fact that Federer is tested a lot?
Nadal gets tested a lot. So what?
Roddick sure gets tested a lot. So what?
That has nothing to do with an actual accusation.
Other posters have pointed out that it's only logical that a player who has won a lot of matches automatically is tested a lot.

Clara Bow
08-09-2005, 02:04 PM
I would imagine that all of the top fewplayers are tested quite a bit. I think that last year both Federer and Roddick, for example were tested more than 12 times each. I would imagine that Nadal will be tested a lot more times this year than last. He should be tested as much as the other top players- which is quite a bit.

What I don't like to see, however, is the insinuation that since Nadal became muscular more early than some others it must be "unnatural" or that he must be doping. Some men do mature more physcially than others. And if you look at Nadal's genentics, being muscular does run in the family. It may be unusual for someone to mature quicker than others, but not really unnatural. In high school my boyfriend my junior year was a gymnast who was very developed for his age. He had the musculature of someone quite a bit older. But that was created through physical activity and genetics (his older brother also developed earlier in that way) and not through any stimulants. Sometimes some men just develop muscles earlier than others.

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 02:05 PM
Do you know that for a fact that they don't target players based on anything but their ranking?
Let alone the genetic part- -- having the highest number of wins on clay, the most demanding surface, and being a close #2 is not reason enough to be tested the most? Get your thick head tested

I don't care who's tested the most this year... How many times are you gonna be back with that? You initially asked why Federer was tested the most in 2004, and then I provided you the logical answer.

I have no idea who's the most tested in 2005, maybe it's Nadal, maybe it's not, who knows.

And I called you thick because you called Nadal body unnatural.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 02:10 PM
I don't care who's tested the most this year... How many times are you gonna be back with that? You initially asked why Federer was tested the most in 2004, and then I provided you the logical answer.

I have no idea who's the most tested in 2005, maybe it's Nadal, maybe it's not, who knows.

And I called you thick because you called Nadal body unnatural.

I find it looks unnatural, but did I say it looks like its because of drugs? Does every 19 year old sportsperson look like nadal to you? Why? Is every single player aside from him genetically cursed or not working out? It looks very unnatural to me and I find you thick for thinking it doesn't look so.

Apparently I am not the only person

"You see the evolution of athletes getting bigger, stronger, more powerful, faster and explosive and hitting the ball harder," Agassi said. "Me at 18, looking at Nadal at 18, from the neck down you would think one person was 26 and the other was 12."

MariaV
08-09-2005, 02:11 PM
You don't think Nadal --who wins a staggering number matches on clay where the physical effort is much more than on any other surface, and who is buffed like a steroid user might be, should be tested more than Federer?
Stop slandering Nadal here. As others have said already he's been tested enough, plus look at his family & genes, he doesn't have any symptoms of steroid use, it has been established a long time ago already so back off!!!
And my opinion is - he doesn't look unnatural at all!

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 02:21 PM
I find it looks unnatural, but did I say it looks like its because of drugs? Does every 19 year old sportsperson look like nadal to you? Why? Is every single player aside from him genetically cursed or not working out? It looks very unnatural to me and I find you thick for thinking it doesn't look so.

Apparently I am not the only person

"You see the evolution of athletes getting bigger, stronger, more powerful, faster and explosive and hitting the ball harder," Agassi said. "Me at 18, looking at Nadal at 18, from the neck down you would think one person was 26 and the other was 12."
when you were in high school did you see the football players. they were 18 and they were beefed up and yet you call it unnatural. (unless your football team was absolutely crap)

Paul Banks
08-09-2005, 02:21 PM
I find it looks unnatural, but did I say it looks like its because of drugs? Does every 19 year old sportsperson look like nadal to you? Why? Is every single player aside from him genetically cursed or not working out? It looks very unnatural to me and I find you thick for thinking it doesn't look so.

Apparently I am not the only person

"You see the evolution of athletes getting bigger, stronger, more powerful, faster and explosive and hitting the ball harder," Agassi said. "Me at 18, looking at Nadal at 18, from the neck down you would think one person was 26 and the other was 12."

Do you know what "unnatural" mean? Check in the dictionary.

I saw Nadal in person yesterday and he's very muscular, that's all. There's nothing special or unnatural about his body.

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 02:25 PM
I find it looks unnatural, but did I say it looks like its because of drugs?Come on, you didn't say it but you did imply it.
Define what you understand by 'unnatural'?

I'm sure that Agassi understands the term 'unnatural' very well and he sure did not mean anything like it when he made this comment (by the way, it's easy to take a quote out of context just to try and prove a point). He was paying Nadal a compliment and not suggesting anything.

Clara Bow
08-09-2005, 02:31 PM
Does every 19 year old sportsperson look like nadal to you?

Not all but a good number. Look at college basketball and football. A good number of the freshmen and sophomore players can be quite built. Look at LeBron James, he has been built since he was in high school. At the Olympics last year, both Micheal Phelps and Alexandre Despatie (http://www.showbizz.net/uploads/matinternet_SPORTS/natation-plongeon/alexandre_despatie.jpg) were 19 and both were very muscular.

And I don't think that Agassi was implying by his quote that Nadal was unnatural. He was just saying that he was part of a trend of the current tennis players to get stronger. I mean, look at Lleyton Hewitt, part of his fitness plan was to become more muscular. As Castafiore said, I think that Agassi was paying Nadal a compliment, not trying to say that there was anything wrong with him.

Puschkin
08-09-2005, 02:33 PM
I mean, look at Lleyton Hewitt, part of his fitness plan was to become more muscular.

But did his tennis get better?

Clara Bow
08-09-2005, 02:35 PM
But did his tennis get better?

His serving has gotten better in my opinion.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 02:52 PM
Do you know what "unnatural" mean? Check in the dictionary.

I saw Nadal in person yesterday and he's very muscular, that's all. There's nothing special or unnatural about his body.

I have seen nadal in person too, so don't decide for me what I think looks natural and what I think looks unnatural.

By the way, distorted in shape or size, is a definition for unnatural. That fits my perception of how nadal's muscles look. Maybe you should be looking up the dictionary (if you know how to) before flinging your baseless comments.

This is public forum, where there are varied opinions. I believe I have read statements about how Federer is ugly. It remains just that to me --some person's opinion that I disagree with. Just as nadal's au naturalle look is an opinion I definitely disagree with.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 02:59 PM
Stop slandering Nadal here. As others have said already he's been tested enough, plus look at his family & genes, he doesn't have any symptoms of steroid use, it has been established a long time ago already so back off!!!
And my opinion is - he doesn't look unnatural at all!

If you can't read a post, stop commenting on it and back off yourself. Does it say anywhere that nadal took steroids?
It is only as much slander to say that Federer needs to be tested most because he wins the most --Why? Is it not possible that he is just a phenomenal player who wins on merit? Testing is done when something --whether it is results, strength or something else-- looks out of the ordinary.

And you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine so shut up asking me to back off. After you.

Nimomunz
08-09-2005, 03:01 PM
If you can't read a post, stop commenting on it and back off yourself. Does it say anywhere that nadal took steroids?
It is only as much slander to say that Federer needs to be tested most because he wins the most --Why? Is it not possible that he is just a phenomenal player who wins on merit? Testing is done when something --whether it is results, strength or something else-- looks out of the ordinary.

And you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine so shut up asking me to back off. After you.
:rolleyes:
have you seen federer play? man thats some extra-ordinary shit!!
Test him i say!!

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 03:04 PM
:rolleyes:
have you seen federer play? man thats some extra-ordinary shit!!
Test him i say!!

Yes and this is why I agree that he needs to be tested. His results are out of line with the ordinary tennis player. But this applies to other players as well --including workhorses or anyone having supernatural physical stamina :rolleyes:

Dirk
08-09-2005, 03:21 PM
Roger has been tested the most blood tests and urine ones. He is always clean. Ninja is all natural baby. ;)

Dirk
08-09-2005, 03:26 PM
I would imagine that all of the top fewplayers are tested quite a bit. I think that last year both Federer and Roddick, for example were tested more than 12 times each. I would imagine that Nadal will be tested a lot more times this year than last. He should be tested as much as the other top players- which is quite a bit.

What I don't like to see, however, is the insinuation that since Nadal became muscular more early than some others it must be "unnatural" or that he must be doping. Some men do mature more physcially than others. And if you look at Nadal's genentics, being muscular does run in the family. It may be unusual for someone to mature quicker than others, but not really unnatural. In high school my boyfriend my junior year was a gymnast who was very developed for his age. He had the musculature of someone quite a bit older. But that was created through physical activity and genetics (his older brother also developed earlier in that way) and not through any stimulants. Sometimes some men just develop muscles earlier than others.

Clara the critics of Nadal's body couldn't just fathom that maybe he goes the the gym a lot???????? :rolleyes: He probably went with Moya a lot since both sport big muscular bodies. If Nadal was taking drugs he would have been caught a while ago. You can fool urine tests but not blood ones and they do give those out now too. I am sure he has had quite a few of thoses. I think other sports should learn from tennis's testing tactics and do the same in their sports.

vogus
08-09-2005, 03:50 PM
Wouldn't we know? Isn't there testing?

If there isn't a deep testing program, then the ATP and ITF are idiots. And if there is, then JVL shouldn't be making any comments.


a little naive are we?

it's good to read this kind of stuff. Doping is an issue in tennis, and most people are either cowards are idiots and they want to run away from it and let the doping athletes just do whatever they want. Like Van Lottum said, the risk of getting caught is very small and the rewards are very big. And of course it's not just the Spanish and Argentinians, and it's not just men's tennis either, i believe there is stuff going on over on the women's side as well with certain players. Drug cheating in sports is a professional business and the specialists know how to get the maximum benefit for tennis players while arousing the minimum suspicion.

NyGeL
08-09-2005, 03:58 PM
this guy is a big asshole.

Just defending Puerta, he made a great training with his coach (a well known guy in Argentina, Dario Lecman, an olympic athlete of weightlifting) to get his fit.

ExpectedWinner
08-09-2005, 04:12 PM
It's kind of funny that those who usually like to point out Fed's poor record in 5 sets think that he's doped. Yeah, many players on tour would like to take magical pills that could give them Fed's precision, variety, reaction time and his smart footwork ( effective angle's cutting with less possible mileage coverage). But those pills have not been invented yet.

And leave Nadal out of it too. It's very possible to get those muscles at the gym by his age. I have no idea why a tennis player needs to carry around such a huge amount of weight though. Powerful serves and strokes come from the technique, not from the massive statue from the neck down.

El Legenda
08-09-2005, 04:14 PM
i failed a drug test for work. :)

oneandonlyhsn
08-09-2005, 04:24 PM
i failed a drug test for work. :)

I failed a drug test for my life :lol:

Merton
08-09-2005, 04:37 PM
a little naive are we?

it's good to read this kind of stuff. Doping is an issue in tennis, and most people are either cowards are idiots and they want to run away from it and let the doping athletes just do whatever they want. Like Van Lottum said, the risk of getting caught is very small and the rewards are very big. And of course it's not just the Spanish and Argentinians, and it's not just men's tennis either, i believe there is stuff going on over on the women's side as well with certain players. Drug cheating in sports is a professional business and the specialists know how to get the maximum benefit for tennis players while arousing the minimum suspicion.

This is not correct. The tradeoff is between the benefit you get from performance enhancing drugs and the cost of getting caught, not the probability of getting caught. For a top player, even if the probability of getting caught is small, the cost of that happening is huge. Lost earnings, career setback, reputation... This cost is much higher for a high-ranked player than a low ranked player.

Merton
08-09-2005, 04:48 PM
If you can't read a post, stop commenting on it and back off yourself. Does it say anywhere that nadal took steroids?
It is only as much slander to say that Federer needs to be tested most because he wins the most --Why? Is it not possible that he is just a phenomenal player who wins on merit? Testing is done when something --whether it is results, strength or something else-- looks out of the ordinary.

And you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine so shut up asking me to back off. After you.

This is not correct. Testing is done to increase the probability of getting caught, thus increasing the expected cost of using drags. Therefore, testing is used to deter potential users, and, as i explained earlier it is not clear why high ranked players are more likely to cheat than low ranked ones.

By the way, i first saw Nadal when he played Younes in 2003 U.S. Open, and he was a very impressive 17-year old back then. It is not that he developed his muscles overnight or something. Moreover, when he returned back from injury last year he was playing like crap, losing to Mutis on clay in Palermo when he needed the points desperately.

alfonsojose
08-09-2005, 05:16 PM
:eek:

nobama
08-09-2005, 05:48 PM
Roger has been tested the most blood tests and urine ones. He is always clean. Ninja is all natural baby. ;)I'm not even sure what reason people have to question whether Fed's using or not. Seems silly to bring him into this discussion. I'd say the same thing about Nadal. It's more genetics than anything else. But it seems some want to believe most players probably are using but because the ATP is inherently racist or is to concerned with the almighty dollar they would never bust a top player like Fed, Aggasi or Roddick, or at least not suspend them for 2 years. Never mind that players like Fed & Roddick have been tested 20+ times and found to be clean. Unless they think the ATP is messing with the results?

David Kenzie
08-09-2005, 06:07 PM
It's more genetics than anything else. But it seems some want to believe most players probably are using but because the ATP is inherently racist or is to concerned with the almighty dollar they would never bust a top player like Fed, Aggasi or Roddick, or at least not suspend them for 2 years. Never mind that players like Fed & Roddick have been tested 20+ times and found to be clean. Unless they think the ATP is messing with the results?
Unfortunately one can only speculate on such matters. But I certainly believe that it is possible for the ATP (if they wanted to) to withhold the identity of players who fail a doping test and even tamper with those results to save the credibility of the sport, even though it is an "independent body" who caries out the tests.
I'm not saying they do (I hope not) just that you can't believe everything the media tells you especially when so much money is at stake.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 06:15 PM
This is not correct. Testing is done to increase the probability of getting caught, thus increasing the expected cost of using drags. Therefore, testing is used to deter potential users, and, as i explained earlier it is not clear why high ranked players are more likely to cheat than low ranked ones.


I think you are mistaken about testing. Can you then explain why Federer was the most tested last year (and probably this year)? He did not PLAY the most matches, he WON the most. Yet he was tested the most. Your theory does not explain that. Similarly for why Armstrong was the most tested in his sport --- he basically participated in only ONE major tournament, but he was tested 5 times more than other cyclists

It is more reasonable that anything which is out of the normal sequence of things --a long line of wins, excessive stamina or hugely buffed up build-- naturally lead to questions.

Castafiore
08-09-2005, 08:02 PM
It is more reasonable that anything which is out of the normal sequence of things --a long line of wins, excessive stamina or hugely buffed up build-- naturally lead to questions.
:rolleyes:
Stubborn fellow/girl, aren't you?
:banghead:


Anyway, the guy with the good genes and the strong physique by nature just won his first match in Montreal! :wavey:

Merton
08-09-2005, 09:02 PM
I think you are mistaken about testing. Can you then explain why Federer was the most tested last year (and probably this year)? He did not PLAY the most matches, he WON the most. Yet he was tested the most. Your theory does not explain that. Similarly for why Armstrong was the most tested in his sport --- he basically participated in only ONE major tournament, but he was tested 5 times more than other cyclists

It is more reasonable that anything which is out of the normal sequence of things --a long line of wins, excessive stamina or hugely buffed up build-- naturally lead to questions.

My argument is about benefit/cost of cheating, implying that it is unlikely that top players would cheat, it had nothing to do with who gets tested. I did not mention Federer, but it seems highly unlikely that he was targeted or he was tested because of suspicions.

To make such a case, you need to compare with how many tests the second tested player had compared to Federer in 2004 and then determine whether the difference is statistically significant. I guess there is a random process for determining who to test, and i also guess that in general people who play more are tested more. But i don't know the actual procedure.

mitalidas
08-09-2005, 10:31 PM
My argument is about benefit/cost of cheating, implying that it is unlikely that top players would cheat, it had nothing to do with who gets tested. I did not mention Federer, but it seems highly unlikely that he was targeted or he was tested because of suspicions.

To make such a case, you need to compare with how many tests the second tested player had compared to Federer in 2004 and then determine whether the difference is statistically significant. I guess there is a random process for determining who to test, and i also guess that in general people who play more are tested more. But i don't know the actual procedure.

I agree completely with the fact that the top players should NOT be tested the most purely for being top players. Read back on page 2/3 etc and see my comments. I feel its wasted resources to target the top players (and they do target them --in 2004 it was Federer, roddick and agassi) just because they're winning the most. Instead of being PC about it, the ATP should be smart about it and simply ask the quetsions that the ordinary tennis fan asks --who is most likely to be cheating? The guy who perpetually has supernatural stamina or a top ranked player who is winning a lot, but not because of inhuman strength.

The only way to make sense of the fact that Federer was tested the most is that they want to exclude the possibility that this incredible run of winning matches is just that --incredible. That it has nothing to do with doping.

nobama
08-10-2005, 01:27 AM
I agree completely with the fact that the top players should NOT be tested the most purely for being top players. Read back on page 2/3 etc and see my comments. I feel its wasted resources to target the top players (and they do target them --in 2004 it was Federer, roddick and agassi) just because they're winning the most. Instead of being PC about it, the ATP should be smart about it and simply ask the quetsions that the ordinary tennis fan asks --who is most likely to be cheating? The guy who perpetually has supernatural stamina or a top ranked player who is winning a lot, but not because of inhuman strength.Yes, but if you do it this way isn't it just a form of profiling? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the ATP would never get away with that.

nobama
08-10-2005, 01:34 AM
Unfortunately one can only speculate on such matters. But I certainly believe that it is possible for the ATP (if they wanted to) to withhold the identity of players who fail a doping test and even tamper with those results to save the credibility of the sport, even though it is an "independent body" who caries out the tests.
I'm not saying they do (I hope not) just that you can't believe everything the media tells you especially when so much money is at stake.That is true, but until there is some evidence to prove otherwise I'm not going to assume that most players are doping, or that that top players like Federer, Roddick, Hewitt, Nadal and Agassi are all doing it but just good at hiding it or the ATP is covering something up.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 01:45 AM
Yes, but if you do it this way isn't it just a form of profiling? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the ATP would never get away with that.
But they already are!
In the article you yourself posted, Federer was the most dope-tested. Isn't that effectively saying to him "We don't believe you can have this incredible winning streak on your own steam, you must be on some genius-inducing drug?"
However, they are obviously wasting their time, because he is not playing the kind of tennis that benefits from doping--he is not winning by outlasting his opponents or by buffing himself to supernatural proportions.
And, profiling --yes it isn't PC, but in many instances with limited resources it is sensible.

Experimentee
08-10-2005, 02:11 AM
Interesting that the ATP targets him. He is not known as an ultra-fit player like canas or hrbaty, or an outrageously buffed player like nadal.


Hrbaty is fit because he cycles 30km a day and runs marathons when he isnt playing tournaments. He doesnt need illegal substances if he gets that kind of exercise.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 02:22 AM
Hrbaty is fit because he cycles 30km a day and runs marathons when he isnt playing tournaments. He doesnt need illegal substances if he gets that kind of exercise.
I am aware Hrbaty is fit and why. But I don't think the ATP is monitoring every player's exercise regime to find out which player is fit because of dope and which because of work. They need reasons to test some people more than others. Whether it is because they are abnormal winning streaks (which is why Federer is tested the most --not because he is a doper), or high physical strength or whatever.
Like I said before, PC goes out the door when it comes to testing with limited resources

nobama
08-10-2005, 02:31 AM
But they already are!
In the article you yourself posted, Federer was the most dope-tested. Isn't that effectively saying to him "We don't believe you can have this incredible winning streak on your own steam, you must be on some genius-inducing drug?"
However, they are obviously wasting their time, because he is not playing the kind of tennis that benefits from doping--he is not winning by outlasting his opponents or by buffing himself to supernatural proportions.
And, profiling --yes it isn't PC, but in many instances with limited resources it is sensible.Oh I agree with you. But from a PR standpoint it doesn't look bad or people don't really question if the top players are tested the most. If the ATP were just testing players from certain countries more, or players that looked more "beefed" up, they'd never get away with it. But I've yet to hear anyone complain that it's wrong or unfair for the likes of Federer, Roddick and Agassi to be tested so much. And these players don't complain about it either, they think it's good for the integrity of the sport.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 02:34 AM
Oh I agree with you. But from a PR standpoint it doesn't look bad or people don't really question if the top players are tested the most. If the ATP were just testing players from certain countries more, or players that looked more "beefed" up, they'd never get away with it. But I've yet to hear anyone complain that it's wrong or unfair for the likes of Federer, Roddick and Agassi to be tested so much. And these players don't complain about it either, they think it's good for the integrity of the sport.

well, its profiling one way or the other. this is based on results and suspicion of continued good results, whereas otherwise you're right it would be more on sensitive grounds like nationality or language-group

Tennis Fool
08-10-2005, 03:42 AM
My slant on this is. firstly someone posted if anyone is quilty it's the americans??????? that confused me somewhat because whatever drugs the like's of Ginepri,Fish,Spadea are taking must be the reversable drug that makes you weak and does the total opposite to what perforfance enhancing drugs are supposed to do!!!(that did make me laugh)

I think it is no coincidence that the main culprets are the guys who haven't got the big weapons and have to work hard at their games harder than powerful guys such as roddick and Safin.

Also someone suggested Federer is a prime suspect, (again that made me laugh) Why would Federer take drugs i think some people are under the impression these enhancing drugs all of a sudden give you the gift of a forehand or a great serve or even great volleys. I agree Federer's movement has improved masses over the last couple of years, but i think there is virtully no chance of him taking enhancing drugs.

I am not pointing the finger at the Argentines in paticular, but there games and there styles would put them under the most suspision as enhancing drugs would have the most benefit for these players, for example Coria is relativly small guy and usually gets blown away by players such as Roddick on the faster surfaces, these drugs would enhance his power and speed and movement, as the same with Canas i mean i am quite sure he is quilty, everything does seem to fall into place a guy of 25/26 who has no great individual shots comes back from a year of injury and rises to the top of the game within a short period of time. I dont know all the facts, but i think there is a lot of drug use in the game of tennis at the moment
Just to piggyback on this, it's not really known how well steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs actually work. I was watching a call-in sports show about the Palmiero fiasco and the host mentioned that these drugs probably just give you an edge. He mentioned that Mark Mcgwire probably would have been hitting balls out of the park without supplements, but that they allowed him to hit even further.

In other words, maybe he wouldn't have hit 60 home runs in a season without supplements, as some of the balls may have been caught before leaving the park.

It seems that drugs make a borderline great player that much greater, but it won't make an average player HOF calibar.

ys
08-10-2005, 04:52 AM
It is pretty obvious.. If you try to marry drugs and tennis, no drugs will improve your strokes, as no drugs can improve you timing and hand-eye coordination. One and only thing that drugs can improve is your footspeed and your stamina. So, obviously, look for drug customers among retrievers, defensive players. Branding all Spaniards and Argentinians is stupid.. Ferrero or Nalbandian look anything but drug users..

jrm
08-10-2005, 11:26 AM
To be honest and objective: do you think world of tennis was suprised about Canas?

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 11:36 AM
It is pretty obvious.. If you try to marry drugs and tennis, no drugs will improve your strokes, as no drugs can improve you timing and hand-eye coordination. One and only thing that drugs can improve is your footspeed and your stamina. So, obviously, look for drug customers among retrievers, defensive players. Branding all Spaniards and Argentinians is stupid.. Ferrero or Nalbandian look anything but drug users..
We are in complete agreement. My first post about this was --interesting choice that Federer is most tested. He needs to be tested, like everyone else, but not the most. Its the one with the supernatural stamina whether they are Americans, South Americans or Europeans

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 11:41 AM
We are in complete agreement. My first post about this was --interesting choice that Federer is most tested. He needs to be tested, like everyone else, but not the most. Its the one with the supernatural stamina whether they are Americans, South Americans or Europeans

If this was the case, why have there been no successful tests for drugs that are used to build up stamina?

So, Hrbaty should be tested every day then if that is the above criteria.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 11:48 AM
If this was the case, why have there been no successful tests for drugs that are used to build up stamina?
So, Hrbaty should be tested every day then if that is the above criteria.

nandrolone can be used to help reduce fatigue and trace amounts of that have been found in players, including canas.

and it would not be possible to single out one player to test continuously for obvious PR reasons. But that doesn't mean that the ATP doesn't use their own criteria in deciding whom to test or profile more --their criteria simply is to look for players who are winning the most often regardless of why / how they are winning the most.

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 11:53 AM
nandrolone can be used to help reduce fatigue and trace amounts of that have been found in players, including canas.

and it would not be possible to single out one player to test continuously for obvious PR reasons. But that doesn't mean that the ATP doesn't use their own criteria in deciding whom to test or profile more --their criteria simply is to look for players who are winning the most often regardless of why / how they are winning the most.

Do you actually know what the benefits are of nandrolone, it's to build up muscle mass and increase strength which are not of benefit for someone who has their game based on endurance.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 11:55 AM
Do you actually know what the benefits are of nandrolone, it's to build up muscle mass and increase strength which are not of benefit for someone who has their game based on endurance.
I am very well aware that nandrolone's primary usage is to bulk up, but it is also known to help in recovering from fatigue.

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 12:08 PM
I am very well aware that nandrolone's primary usage is to bulk up, but it is also known to help in recovering from fatigue.

Still haven't answered my question about why there have been no positive tests for endurance drugs, which are the ones that would be the ones in usage for the people that someone like you would be profiling.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 12:18 PM
Still haven't answered my question about why there have been no positive tests for endurance drugs, which are the ones that would be the ones in usage for the people that someone like you would be profiling.
Well, as you might have noticed the ATP is profiling elsewhere--based on win streaks regardless of physical stamina or buildup. That is not going to lead to finding endurance drugs if the top players are steering clear of those drugs.

Maybe players who are doping with those drugs are using them out of competition, or are using amounts that would help them without crossing the illegal threshold (like canas did). I am not on the ATP so I can only speculate. But that doesn't change my opinion that blindly targetting the top players because of win streaks, regardless of how they win, is going to find them their dopers. Maybe you should answer why you think the ATP's current profiing method makes sense

Nimomunz
08-10-2005, 12:19 PM
To be honest and objective: do you think world of tennis was suprised about Canas?
i think they were surprised about the extent of the punishement as i think Pat McEnroe was saying that its th two years that shocked them all and if thats true then the atp is halfway on its way to shocking the players clean!

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 12:25 PM
i think they were surprised about the extent of the punishement as i think Pat McEnroe was saying that its th two years that shocked them all and if thats true then the atp is halfway on its way to shocking the players clean!

there may be a couple things in play. maybe they have abruptly decided to do something drastic about doping, and make an example out of canas. or, as star pointed out --it is apparently worse to be caught trying to mask your dope, than to be doping per se. the diuretic is the masker
Pat Mcenroe etc will tone down this talk abecause they dont want the public to build a perception of tennis as filled with dopers

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 12:27 PM
Well, as you might have noticed the ATP is profiling elsewhere--based on win streaks regardless of physical stamina or buildup. That is not going to lead to finding endurance drugs if the top players are steering clear of those drugs.

Well, the testing pattern is irregular at the best of times. All players should be tested at regular intervals and not just the top ones.

Maybe players who are doping with those drugs are using them out of competition, or are using amounts that would help them without crossing the illegal threshold (like canas did). I am not on the ATP so I can only speculate. But that doesn't change my opinion that blindly targetting the top players because of win streaks, regardless of how they win, is going to find them their dopers. Maybe you should answer why you think the ATP's current profiing method makes sense

They don't care about the big fish. When did I say it makes sense? It's up to the players to know what's in the supplements that they all use apart from Coria, he said he doesn't use any.

Do you actually know what drugs I am actually talking about, that would be of the best benefit to these players?

Nimomunz
08-10-2005, 12:39 PM
Well, the testing pattern is irregular at the best of times. All players should be tested at regular intervals and not just the top ones.




well if the testing pattern is regular and you know when exactly your gonna be tested then you'll find it easier to avoid. if the testing is more random you'll live perpetually clean in fear of a random test catching you out.
I mean if you test me on Mon an i know my next test is the next week i'll dope up and the drugs will leave my system and then i'll be 'clean'.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 12:40 PM
Well, the testing pattern is irregular at the best of times. All players should be tested at regular intervals and not just the top ones.
They don't care about the big fish. When did I say it makes sense? It's up to the players to know what's in the supplements that they all use apart from Coria, he said he doesn't use any.
Do you actually know what drugs I am actually talking about, that would be of the best benefit to these players?
Well then you agree with ys and me that the testing scheme at ATP is currently done with little thought. I dont know what profile you might have in mind, but to me it seems that if resources permit then everyone should be tested in and out of competition at equal rates or another scheme that looks for dope where it is more likely to be found. whether it is based on size, endurance, nationality, language, gossip or something else--that remains to be seen

And yes I am aware of what drugs you are talking about. You asked that question -to another poster- and then responded as well in the thread which came out when canas was first found to have doped and also discussed testing from a unit independent of the ATP

Nimomunz
08-10-2005, 12:48 PM
i think the atp testing system is adequate as it caught someone who is doping?
Why are we discrediting the ATP drug system right now? Why are we saying hey the system doesnt work when its fingered someone out? Would we like it if MTF un-favorites Roddick or Hewitt were fingered out instead?
The players who win more are tested more. that is just common sense. its pointless to test Federer and Mirnyi the same amount of times? Why? Not because Mirnyis game is gounded in his serve while Feds is more well rounded but because Fed wins more than Fed.

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 12:48 PM
Well then you agree with ys and me that the testing scheme at ATP is currently done with little thought. I dont know what profile you might have in mind, but to me it seems that if resources permit then everyone should be tested in and out of competition at equal rates or another scheme that looks for dope where it is more likely to be found. whether it is based on size, endurance, nationality, language, gossip or something else--that remains to be seen

The question is how serious are they really about doping issues. It's about lip service to make it look like they are, get the odd one here and there, while not exactly addressing the problem.

It's a science and the leaders in this field will always be ahead, they haven't found a test for HGH yet and that is a very serious substance.

And yes I am aware of what drugs you are talking about. You asked that question -to another poster- and then responded as well in the thread which came out when canas was first found to have doped and also discussed testing from a unit independent of the ATP

Now, they have signed some agreement with WADA or something, but they should solely hand over the testing to someone else independent of the ATP.

They should inform the organisation where they'll be in off tournament weeks and during the off season is where the testing should be more stringent.

Still waiting for the day, when they come up with a positive result for the substances that some players are taking, that I have mentioned previously.

Nimomunz
08-10-2005, 12:51 PM
The question is how serious are they really about doping issues. It's about lip service to make it look like they are, get the odd one here and there, while not exactly addressing the problem.

It's a science and the leaders in this field will always be ahead, they haven't found a test for HGH yet and that is a very serious substance.




of course the system can always get better but the system right now has uncovered someone and he might be the odd one here and there that they encountered but it doesnt mean that this verdict is incorrect.

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 12:59 PM
of course the system can always get better but the system right now has uncovered someone and he might be the odd one here and there that they encountered but it doesnt mean that this verdict is incorrect.

Once again for you I have not said that Caņas is innocent and haven't at any time. The ATP have shown bad form and have had many problems with their drug testing procedures in the past, some players getting off and others not for the same offences.

No consistency and they don't really care, they will find 1 more player next year, then say hey we are serious about it.

mitalidas
08-10-2005, 01:03 PM
the day they find a positive and acknowledge it in about their money-raking, crowd-pulling, top ranked darling from the US, Australia or Europe, i will start giving the ATP more credibility

Action Jackson
08-10-2005, 01:11 PM
the day they find a positive and acknowledge it in about their money-raking, crowd-pulling, top ranked darling from the US, Australia or Europe, i will start giving the ATP more credibility

Like that will be happening anytime soon.

kapranos
03-31-2007, 03:01 PM
man, how right was he

kapranos
03-31-2007, 03:03 PM
He also names names: "I have big questionmarks at Guillermo Canas. I played against him on hardcourt, and after a set he was totally tired. He always had small injuries and got fast cramp. Now he is the fittest player in the circuit after Lleyton Hewitt and he makes the 4oth place in the rankings. How is that possible? Mariano Puerta is another example. He's number 300 of theworld, is gone for a while. Comes back and makes it #30. His raking gets worse, he's away for a while and gets to #30 again. His father is the guy who gave the drugs to Chela. Well, then one and one is two, right?"


So true!

kapranos
03-31-2007, 03:06 PM
Now he beat Fed 2 times in a row? Bullshit.

NyGeL
03-31-2007, 03:38 PM
Van Lottum knows nothing about training.

RickDaStick
03-31-2007, 03:53 PM
:haha: At all you idiots saying van Lottum doesnt know what he was talking about and he is stupid. Argies are all just bad news, they should all be banned from the tour.

RickDaStick
03-31-2007, 03:55 PM
Also how stupid are these drug lords. You figured they would of stopped after being called out by van Lottum but no.

zethand
03-31-2007, 03:58 PM
what is the question here?
Is cañas on drugs? the answer is simply... Yes he is!!
Who care what kind??

darnyelb
03-31-2007, 04:08 PM
I have to think Canas is smarter than to use drugs again. He saw what happened to Mariano Puerta, why risk it all again?

Drugs or no, Canas knows how to play tennis. I hope he's for real this time.

Modetopia
03-31-2007, 04:11 PM
Seasons change, people don't.:rolleyes:

danton
03-31-2007, 04:25 PM
That first article was scary how it was ahead of time.

Puerta is due to end his suspension in June 2007. He isn't yet 30 does anyone know whether he is going to try an do a Canas and storm back.

Also I thought get caught twice you really should be banned for life? I don't know the ins and outs of his doping offences though.

El Legenda
03-31-2007, 04:26 PM
this guy should get a Nobel Prize.

El Legenda
03-31-2007, 04:27 PM
this guy should get a Nobel Prize.

Action Jackson
03-31-2007, 04:27 PM
That first article was scary how it was ahead of time.

Puerta is due to end his suspension in June 2007. He isn't yet 30 does anyone know whether he is going to try an do a Canas and storm back.

Also I thought get caught twice you really should be banned for life? I don't know the ins and outs of his doping offences though.

Do some research and read the cases. The info isn't that hard to find, then once you have read them and their findings, then you will have a better idea.

danton
03-31-2007, 04:30 PM
My question was is he planning a comeback - I can't find out the information despite looking. Of course I can find details of the suspension that's how I found out about his suspension ending date -I was just stating that I wasn't completely in the know.

mtw
03-31-2007, 04:38 PM
He said this rubbish, cause of jelousy. We know, that Holand has not such good players, as Argentina. And they are quite weak in soccer too.
Canas is really good player, who can win with many tennis players and perhaps that's why he was suspended. He became a drug, probably because of hypertension. And US is not Europe. The basic group of antihypertensive drugs is diuretic in this state, just alike this drug, which was given to Canas. We have many other group of antihypertensive medicines in Europe for instance: IACE, sartans, Inhibitors of Calcium Canals and Inhibitors of betareceptors and probably he became here another medicine to reduce hypertension.

Action Jackson
03-31-2007, 04:40 PM
My question was is he planning a comeback - I can't find out the information despite looking. Of course I can find details of the suspension that's how I found out about his suspension ending date -I was just stating that I wasn't completely in the know.

Puerta is returning later in the year.

angiel
03-31-2007, 04:43 PM
The Americans are some of the biggest drug users in sport.

Burrow
03-31-2007, 05:01 PM
The Americans are some of the biggest drug users in sport.

oh my god! a post which isn't about Sampras!

Sofyaxo
03-31-2007, 05:19 PM
OMG! They're all on drugs!! :o

The ATP has hardcore drug testing right now (remember the players bitching about it?) no one is going out there with even a cold pill in their system that wasn't fully documented and allowed.

R.Federer
03-31-2007, 05:36 PM
The Americans are some of the biggest drug users in sport.

Proof? Source? Or is this just baseless slander?

danton
03-31-2007, 06:13 PM
Proof? Source? Or is this just baseless slander?

THere are a couple of minor american tennis players on the suspension list but that hardly implicates all american tennis players. I think it was a silly statement but there is merit in it if you consider american athletics and the Balco scandal. unfortunately you now watch an american convincingly win an athletics championship or medal and there is an automatic suspicion in the back of your mind.

American sport has proven to be dirty so it's not baseless but I think compared to other sports in america Tennis appears pretty clean.

ASP0315
04-01-2007, 01:43 AM
THere are a couple of minor american tennis players on the suspension list but that hardly implicates all american tennis players. I think it was a silly statement but there is merit in it if you consider american athletics and the Balco scandal. unfortunately you now watch an american convincingly win an athletics championship or medal and there is an automatic suspicion in the back of your mind.

American sport has proven to be dirty so it's not baseless but I think compared to other sports in america Tennis appears pretty clean.

Good post. :yeah: US Sports itself has a history of drug cheats.

Voo de Mar
04-01-2007, 11:49 AM
I don't know why is so much fuss around using drugs in men's tennis. People around the world using some cures, so why players shouldn't do this? ;) I know it is immoral but drugs aren't all. You must play good tennis. Puerta for example was trashed in the final of Roland Garros and lost sets 3-6 1-6 to Nadal. :banana: Maybe Rafa also uses some good stuff? :aplot:

joyk
04-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Proof? Source? Or is this just baseless slander?
Baseless slander.

dijus
04-01-2007, 12:20 PM
Puerta is returning later in the year.

:eek: any idea when and where (exactly) does he plan to return ? :wavey:

edit: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=40245&page=20

Klaas_nalbandian
04-01-2007, 12:42 PM
He said this rubbish, cause of jelousy. We know, that Holand has not such good players, as Argentina. And they are quite weak in soccer too.


well guess you must be a pretty funny guy saying those things

Sean.J.S.
04-01-2007, 12:43 PM
50% of the top 100 take drugs according to JVL. :haha:

Sean.J.S.
04-01-2007, 12:43 PM
Oh and btw Puerta has the same birthday as me. :o