Interesting (?) stat: [any player] vs. [every #1 of his time] [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Interesting (?) stat: [any player] vs. [every #1 of his time]

oz_boz
05-12-2005, 06:14 PM
Having too much time on my hands, I came to think of an old fav of mine who was a "slayer", a player who managed to beat top guys more often than he perhaps should according to his ranking. I'm thinking of Magnus Larsson, who culd beat just about anyone on a good day. (A less flattering word for a player like him would be "underachiever"...)

I collected some stats (on www.tenniscorner.net) about his records against contemporary players who have at some time during their career been ranked #1. In Magnus case, the players and his H2H against them were the following:

Agassi 1-3
Becker 2-4
Courier 2-2
Edberg 2-2
Federer 1-1
Ferrero 1-0
Hewitt 0-1
Kafelnikov 3-4
Lendl 0-1
Moya 0-1
Muster 4-3
Rafter 0-2
Rios 3-4
Safin 1-1
Sampras 4-7
Wilander 1-0

and summing up:

ML - (all contemporary #1:s) 25-36, that is a winning % of 41.

This seems to be a good record for someone who has had 10 as his highest ranking, and never won a tournie for six years. Then again, maybe we should have expected more of Larsson than reaching only 1 major SF.

I did the same with some other players to compare (yup, having nothing important to do for the moment...), a couple of them known as underachievers:

Philippoussis - #1 25-49, 34% W
Chang - #1 62-98, 39% W
Enqvist - #1 43-57, 43% W
Henman - #1 36-56, 39% W
T. Johansson - #1 23-40, 37% W
Gilbert - #1 24-70, 26% W :lol:

It's kind of fun to see that my guess about ol' Magnus was right, he really could challenge the top just as good as some better known guys.

Feel free to add other players' stats!

mitalidas
05-12-2005, 06:21 PM
I would like to see this for Hewitt
I'm sure his stats are veryimpressive from when he was #1

Goes without saying, I think Fed's would be even better (but I know his, so don't really need someone to compile it)

DanEd
05-12-2005, 06:32 PM
I would like to see this for Hewitt
I'm sure his stats are veryimpressive from when he was #1

Goes without saying, I think Fed's would be even better (but I know his, so don't really need someone to compile it)

for hewitt:

Sampras: 5-4
Agassi: 4-4
Ferrero: 5-3
Safin: 5-6
Kuerten:3-1
Moya:6-5
Federer: 7-9
Kafelnikov:7-1
Rafter:3-1
Rios:3-2
Roddick:5-1
Becker:0-1
total: 53:38 (58.2%)

oz_boz
05-12-2005, 07:04 PM
I would like to see this for Hewitt
I'm sure his stats are veryimpressive from when he was #1

Goes without saying, I think Fed's would be even better (but I know his, so don't really need someone to compile it)

The stats are more telling for players who have retired or at least a career of say 7-8 years behind them.Hewitt will probably face Federer-Safin-Roddick-Ferrero + future #1:s later in his career.

mitalidas
05-12-2005, 07:17 PM
for hewitt:

Sampras: 5-4
Agassi: 4-4
Ferrero: 5-3
Safin: 5-6
Kuerten:3-1
Moya:6-5
Federer: 9-7
Kafelnikov:7-1
Rafter:3-1
Rios:3-2
Roddick:5-1
Becker:0-1
total: 55:36 (61.5%)

these are extremely impressive
there are so few players that are better or equal in H2H with sampras and agassi (Fed is one of course)

oz_boz
05-12-2005, 07:42 PM
Giants of the Open Era:

Sampras - other #1:s 115-57, 68% W :eek:
Borg 33-21, 61% W
Lendl 102-73, 58% W
Agassi 95-79, 55% W

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

shaoyu
05-12-2005, 07:46 PM
I think this stat should be based on matches against #1 players AFTER they have ascended to #1 ranking.

jtipson
05-12-2005, 07:49 PM
for hewitt:

Sampras: 5-4
Agassi: 4-4
Ferrero: 5-3
Safin: 5-6
Kuerten:3-1
Moya:6-5
Federer: 9-7
Kafelnikov:7-1
Rafter:3-1
Rios:3-2
Roddick:5-1
Becker:0-1
total: 55:36 (61.5%)

I think that should be Federer: 7-9
Not that it makes a lot of difference, mind ;)

DanEd
05-12-2005, 08:00 PM
I think that should be Federer: 7-9
Not that it makes a lot of difference, mind ;)

yep sorry :smash:

oz_boz
05-12-2005, 08:02 PM
I think this stat should be based on matches against #1 players AFTER they have ascended to #1 ranking.

Good point there. But:

1) It will be much harder to collect data (it is already a tedious task). But perhaps you can provide us with some? ;)
2) Every decent (say best ranking <20) player with a career of say 5-10 years will meet maybe 15 different #1:s on a number of occasions (some in the beginning of their career, some at their peak, some on their way down). In the long run, these stats are KIND OF comparable.
3) I still believe that a player's win% calculated in this way tells us something about that player's A game. If you have a good A game, you will win more meetings against the best of the best; if not, you can beat lower ranked players but stand no chance against the cream.

oz_boz
05-12-2005, 08:11 PM
I still believe that a player's win% calculated in this way tells us something about that player's A game. If you have a good A game, you will win more meetings against the best of the best; if not, you can beat lower ranked players but stand no chance against the cream.

To this I want to add that Enqvist's and Gilbert's percentages are particularly telling - both reached a career-high #4 ranking...

shaoyu
05-12-2005, 08:40 PM
Good point there. But:

1) It will be much harder to collect data (it is already a tedious task). But perhaps you can provide us with some? ;)
2) Every decent (say best ranking <20) player with a career of say 5-10 years will meet maybe 15 different #1:s on a number of occasions (some in the beginning of their career, some at their peak, some on their way down). In the long run, these stats are KIND OF comparable.
3) I still believe that a player's win% calculated in this way tells us something about that player's A game. If you have a good A game, you will win more meetings against the best of the best; if not, you can beat lower ranked players but stand no chance against the cream.

Your second point is very well said. I agree with you now this may be the better way to do it. I'd save myself from trying to figure it out match by match :)

Maxpowers
05-12-2005, 08:52 PM
Can you tell me the stats for Edberg, T. Martin and Rafter?

SwissMister1
05-12-2005, 11:00 PM
Jerome Haehnel is 100%. I actually can't think of too many other guys who can say that, even guys who came completely out of nowhere to beat a #1 usually wound up playing some other #1 and losing.

makro120
05-12-2005, 11:03 PM
Federer:

Agassi 7-3
Ferrero 5-3
Hewitt 9-7
Kafelnikov 2-4
Kuerten 1-2
Moya 5-0
Rafter 0-3
Rios 2-0
Roddick 8-1
Safin 6-2
Sampras 1-0

46-25 (65%)

DanEd
05-12-2005, 11:14 PM
Moya:
Agassi: 1-3
Kuerten:3-5
Sampras:1-3
Roddick:1-4
Federer:0-5
Hewitt:5-6
Kafelnikov:3-3
Rafter:3-1
Muster:4-4
Becker:2-2
Ferrero:4-7
Rios:2-5
Total:29-48 (37.6%)

DanEd
05-12-2005, 11:17 PM
Moya must be the #1 player with the lowest winning-%.

DanEd
05-12-2005, 11:22 PM
mmm I think rafter´s is worse

makro120
05-12-2005, 11:29 PM
Roddick:
Agassi: 1-5
Kuerten:1-1
Sampras:2-1
Federer:1-8
Hewitt:1-6
safin:3-2
Ferrero:1-0
Rios:2-0
Moya:4-1
Total:16-24 (40%)

MisterQ
05-12-2005, 11:31 PM
thanks for all these stats. :yeah: keep 'em coming!

mandoura
05-12-2005, 11:48 PM
Roddick:

Federer:1-8
Hewitt:1-6



These are bad.

makro120
05-13-2005, 12:16 AM
Kuerten:
Agassi 4-7
Roddick:1-1
Sampras:1-2
Federer:2-1
Hewitt:1-3
safin:4-3
Ferrero:2-3
kafelnikov:7-5
Rios:2-2
Moya:5-3
Courier:0-1
Rafter:4-4
Muster:3-0
total:36-35(+50%)

mandoura
05-13-2005, 12:23 AM
Kuerten:
Agassi 4-7
Roddick:1-1
Sampras:1-2
Federer:2-1
Hewitt:1-3
safin:4-3
Ferrero:2-3
kafelnikov:7-5
Rios:2-2
Moya:5-3
Courier:0-1
Rafter:4-4
Muster:3-0
total:36-35(+50%)

Pretty good. Impressive.

mandoura
05-13-2005, 12:27 AM
On a second thought, a stupid question:

Are these h2h against # 1s for all their meetings or just when they were #1s? Because I can't recall Guga playing Roger 3 times while Roger was # 1. Besides, if it is not while they were actually # 1, it is not that impressive.

makro120
05-13-2005, 12:32 AM
It is for all the meetings.

SwissMister1
05-13-2005, 05:46 PM
Check out the stats of the clay court legend Jordi Burillo of Spain against #1s during his career:

Becker 1-1
Edberg 1-0
Courier 0-0
Sampras 0-1
Agassi 0-0
Muster 0-2
Rios 0-1
Moya 2-0
Kafelnikov 3-2
Rafter 0-0
Safin 0-0
Kuerten 0-0

Overall 7-7 (50%)