If Gaudio wins RG, Hamburg, Monte Carlo and Rome would he get any respect? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

If Gaudio wins RG, Hamburg, Monte Carlo and Rome would he get any respect?

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:20 PM
Ok, this does not mean he has to win all of them in a year and even if that ridiculous thing happened, it would still be discredited.

It has been established that on clay that Gaudio is a big joke, a disgrace to tennis, a piece of crap that only won RG because the other player was injured in the final, defying the medical journals of the world that cramp has never been designated as an injury.

Yes, he had an easy draw and was able to put some curse on his opponents that caused him to win 5 set matches.

With the above taken into consideration if he managed to win all of these titles at least once, would it get the kudos it deserved or would all the great excuses come out to deny it happened.

Choupi
02-13-2005, 07:24 PM
There will always be good reasons for the true unbelievers, no matter how many titles he'll win. That's just the way it is!

joeb_uk
02-13-2005, 07:26 PM
The excuses will still be there:
coria wasnt playing well
ferrero wasnt playing well

blah blah, it will always happen.

Neely
02-13-2005, 07:26 PM
Lots of players don't get the respect they deserve. Gaudio doesn't even need to win any of these mentioned titles, even what he did the last two weeks deserves credit for winning back-to-back titles.

It's more a question of who is willing to give some credit to the players even if they don't like particular ones.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:28 PM
Perfect example my loathing for Roddick is clear, but the North American summer in 2003 where he just went on a tear has to be respected, he hasn't been the same since, but like that was going to happen.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:29 PM
The excuses will still be there:
coria wasnt playing well
ferrero wasnt playing well

blah blah, it will always happen.

Stop stating the obvious, well Lendl and Wilander didn't or don't get the respect, so how is little Gaston going to.

Cervantes
02-13-2005, 07:30 PM
Respect for Gaudio on clay, but not so much on other surfaces. I always thought he was a good claycourt player, although I didn't expect him to win RG. It has to be said he was a little lucky to win the final, but the other 6 matches were totally deserved, he just outplayed his opponents.
I think people have a hard time respecting Gaudio cause he's a joke on other surfaces and he shouldn't be top 10 therefore.

Leena
02-13-2005, 07:31 PM
Gaudio doesn't even need to win any of these mentioned titles, even what he did the last two weeks deserves credit for winning back-to-back titles.

I agree.

But, when another player performs this feat... he's ridiculed. It makes no sense to little ol' me.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:32 PM
Cervantes, could you please read the question clearly as it relates to clay and clay only and not other surfaces.

Leonandy
02-13-2005, 07:36 PM
There will always be good reasons for the true unbelievers, no matter how many titles he'll win. That's just the way it is!
That's ture.Those unbelievers will always have some excuses to blame on him.
But never mind,Gaston can prove his ability,and he has his fans all over the world.
:worship: Vamos Gaston! :worship:

Scotso
02-13-2005, 07:40 PM
I think on clay he already has respect.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:41 PM
I think on clay he already has respect.

From his peers he does.

Leonandy
02-13-2005, 07:43 PM
I think on clay he already has respect.
Those reasonable people will,certainly

Leena
02-13-2005, 07:43 PM
From his peers he does.
Not from El Cheato Coria.

Neely
02-13-2005, 07:43 PM
BTW, question for you, George: what exactly makes you think Gaudio doesn't get the credit he deserves?

Anything in particular?

Leena
02-13-2005, 07:44 PM
BTW, question for you, George: what exactly makes you think Gaudio doesn't get the credit he deserves?

Anything in particular?
Because he's a troll.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:44 PM
Not from El Cheato Coria.

Even Coria said as a tennis player I respect him, but not as a person.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:45 PM
Because he's a troll.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Choupi
02-13-2005, 07:45 PM
Not from El Cheato Coria.
Who cares? He doesn't need anything from him...not even his respect.

Neely
02-13-2005, 07:47 PM
Because he's a troll.
don't disturb, it was really a serious question asked by me...

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:47 PM
BTW, question for you, George: what exactly makes you think Gaudio doesn't get the credit he deserves?

Anything in particular?

Come on Neely you are not a delusional moron who can't create a thought, it's fairly obvious actually.

federer express
02-13-2005, 07:52 PM
i think everyone associated with tennis has known what gaudio is capable of. even before he won at RG he was always considered a threat against anyone on clay. and when u do win there, then nobody can question your ability on that surface! muppets dont win at RG! and u dont win a slam unless u deserved it for those 2 weeks at least. he may never win another slam but he should still have the respect that any grand slam champion commands. and i think he does from the majority of tennis fans. either way, i doubt gaudio cares...he knows what he is capable of and has nothing to prove anymore. he's not my fave player, but denying his ability, talent or achievements is to be stupidly biased

Leena
02-13-2005, 07:52 PM
Come on Neely you are not a delusional moron who can't create a thought, it's fairly obvious actually.

I'd seriously like to know as well...

Myself, I think Gaudio gets as much respect as he deserves for his clay court accomplishments. He has 5 titles. 3 of which are rinky dink.

Jenrios
02-13-2005, 07:53 PM
hmmm, I guess Gaudio would get the respect if he won all those title - but grudgingly. IMO, if Gaudio were not so fragile mentally, he would have won far more than he already has. I always knew he had the game to win RG - I doubted his mental strength.

Also, being dignified on court and not a flamboyant media personality means the media largely ignore him anyway.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:54 PM
Fair and well balanced response federer express considering your allergy to clay (j/k).
The line muppets don't win at RG ! is very apt.

Neely
02-13-2005, 07:56 PM
Come on Neely you are not a delusional morons who can't create a thought, it's fairly obvious.
I don't read every thread, let alone I would notice any new "trolling movements" in Gaudio's forum because the time I spend there is limited, to say the least.
So I was asking what's currently going on that makes you think he doesn't get the respect he should deserve in your opinion.

Is it the "old thing" because Coria was injured?
Did people discredit him saying "nothing extraordinary winning two titles in two weeks?"
Are you disappointed that Gaudio gets only 100 responses in this Nadal match thread whereas Federer would get 400 after a match like that?

No trap, no acting, just a serious question because I personally can't follow thoughts that his results are not acknowledged. With Nalbandian and Coria doing nothing the last 2 weeks, he was pretty in the spotlight and where formerly were, lets say four big Gaudio fans, he has gained the attention of many more people thanks to his successes.

federer express
02-13-2005, 07:56 PM
Fair and well balanced response federer express considering your allergy to clay (j/k).
The line muppets don't win at RG ! is very apt.

no allergy to clay...my favourite ever slam was french open 88 :)

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:57 PM
I wouldn't know beating Costa in front of his own people at Barcelona, dismantling Guga when he won Mallorca, beating Gonzalez in Chile and winning the RG final against a heavy favourite I wouldn't know I don't call them mickey mouse victories.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 07:58 PM
no allergy to clay...my favourite ever slam was french open 88 :)

Time to bring the peace pipe out now I think. :)

Leena
02-13-2005, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't know beating Costa in front of his own people at Barcelona, dismantling Guga when he won Mallorca, beating Gonzalez in Chile and winning the RG final against a heavy favourite I wouldn't know I don't call them mickey mouse victories.
Barcelona is the one I give credit for.

The other ones... you're only proving yourself to be a hypocrite.

Choupi
02-13-2005, 08:01 PM
Time to bring the peace pipe out now I think. :)
:worship: See everything comes on time to who knows how to be patient... ;)

ae wowww
02-13-2005, 08:03 PM
It has been established that on clay that Gaudio is a big joke, a disgrace to tennis, a piece of crap that only won RG because the other player was injured in the final, defying the medical journals of the world that cramp has never been designated as an injury.
I 100% disagree. I take my hat off to Gaston, as I think it is a complete joke to say that you can win a Grand Slam through luck, or with ease.
At the end of the day, GG has played an awesome 2 weeks of tennis, regardless of his opponents - there are no 'easy' matches at the said level of professional tennis, and what he has accomplished is beyond the wildest dreams of most.
I wish him the best of luck for the 2005 Clay season, and will be there to offer my support in Paris.

federer express
02-13-2005, 08:04 PM
Time to bring the peace pipe out now I think. :)

lol. love watching the french. and that year had leconte beating becker (someone he rarely got the better off in an amazing 5 sets) and reaching the final before sadly being hammered by wilander. (nothing against wilander, was just a sad sight seeing the home player and my fave booed and dismantled in the biggest match of his career). and in 90 and 92he played chesnokov and kulti there in two of my favourite ever matches. beyond that, are always epic matches there. and..always loved the build-up, especially monte carlo and hamburg. never been a clay hater.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Barcelona is the one I give credit for.

The other ones... you're only proving yourself to be a hypocrite.

Read clearly I said not mickey mouse victories in that respective tournament, beating Gonzalez in Chile with all the crowd against him wasn't easy, however this doesn't take away that it was an IS event and not a Slam or a TMS event where obviously it means less.

Considering I said yes these titles are good and all, but insignificant compared to the big stuff coming up and how is that hypocritical?

ae wowww
02-13-2005, 08:07 PM
Even Coria said as a tennis player I respect him, but not as a person.
Why the hell say that? He's a legend, as a person too...

Leena
02-13-2005, 08:08 PM
Read clearly I said not mickey mouse victories in that respective tournament, beating Gonzalez in Chile with all the crowd against him wasn't easy, however this doesn't take away that it was an IS event and not a Slam or a TMS event where obviously it means less.

Considering I said yes these titles are good and all, but insignificant compared to the big stuff coming up and how is that hypocritical?
d. Coria. d. Sampras.

You say those clay titles are meaningless.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:19 PM
d. Coria. d. Sampras.

You say those clay titles are meaningless.

Stop trolling for once, though you are good. :)

Anyway, how can you justify the overall standard of claycourt tournaments was higher in the US than Europe?

This is actually a serious question? Since when has Sampras been seen as one of the elite on clay and Coria hmm coming back from a drug ban and 1st tournament back.

Yes, Gaudio won these tournaments in South America and Buenos Aires had 4 guys Moya, Gaudio, Cañas and Chela who were at the top or near the top on that respective surface something the US tournaments on clay haven't had in recent history.

Viña is small and the final is the only match that he really had to beat a tough opponent with some form.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Why the hell say that? He's a legend, as a person too...

They don't like each other too much and it's mutual.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Neely, there haven't been any trolling movements at all and that's far from the issue.

Injury, not my fault people don't have a clue about what can cause cramps and equate with that being injured.

Gaudio is never going to be a superstar and that is far from a problem for me and Neely if you knew which players I actually follow, then that wouldn't come into it. Come on I like Mantilla, like people are going to break down the doors to watch him play.

It's not one specific thing, it's more a combination of minor irritating things. At the same time it's the same as I said before in 2003 when Roddick had that great streak, did he deserve those wins, yes, was he good enough to take advantage of any breaks that usually happen in a tournament, yes he was and good for him.

Then again the old English-language bias thing comes into it as well, if it was someone else Federer excepted as he is that far above everyone else then it would get lauded to the moon what an achievement it was, probably reading the Lendl and Wilander articles didn't help either.

NiciSunflower
02-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Well, I do respect him, I've always done so. He's achieved great victories as an athlete and as a person so far.

And I guess he doesn't care about those who don't give him credit for his clay abilities. Therefore everything's fine as long as he can smile when he's looking into the mirror and I'm sure he'll have a big grin on his face tomorrow morning after today's title :D

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:30 PM
hmmm, I guess Gaudio would get the respect if he won all those title - but grudgingly. IMO, if Gaudio were not so fragile mentally, he would have won far more than he already has. I always knew he had the game to win RG - I doubted his mental strength.

Also, being dignified on court and not a flamboyant media personality means the media largely ignore him anyway.

Mental fortitude has never been his strong point, as anyone with a clue can see the guy had the ability to win RG, but then again so did Rios and Corretja players ironically who own Gaudio weren't ever able to achieve, so that was a factor against him.

The media point you make is very relevant.

Black Adam
02-13-2005, 08:35 PM
Perfect example my loathing for Roddick is clear, but the North American summer in 2003 where he just went on a tear has to be respected, he hasn't been the same since, but like that was going to happen.

You are one of the few ppl who accknowledge that Summer ;) Thnx :yeah:

Cervantes
02-13-2005, 08:36 PM
Cervantes, could you please read the question clearly as it relates to clay and clay only and not other surfaces.

I did read the question and I disagree Gaudio doesn't get any respect as a claycourter. Surely he's not (yet) up there with Coria, Ferrero, Kuerten and Moya, but he's certainly top 5-10 on that surface. But to gain overall respect you have to also perform on other surfaces and that's why I brought that up.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:38 PM
You are one of the few ppl who accknowledge that Summer ;) Thnx :yeah:

What's not to acknowledge that was his "hot-time" winning those 2 TMS events and the US Open. Doesn't mean I enjoyed it or wanted it to happen, but he got the job done then and that's the bottom line.

Black Adam
02-13-2005, 08:39 PM
What's not to acknowledge that was his "hot-time" winning those 2 TMS events and the US Open. Doesn't mean I enjoyed it or wanted it to happen, but he got the job done then and that's the bottom line.
Exacly....i know some ppl who act as if it did not happen at all

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:42 PM
I did read the question and I disagree Gaudio doesn't get any respect as a claycourter. Surely he's not (yet) up there with Coria, Ferrero, Kuerten and Moya, but he's certainly top 5-10 on that surface. But to gain overall respect you have to also perform on other surfaces and that's why I brought that up.

Ok, so since you know it I thought you'd be aware of his respective records against Ferrero, Kuerten, Moya and Coria on the surface all very respectable and Ferrero got 2 wins more than he should have because of Gaston's choking and that's only Gaudio's fault and no one elses. Then again you knew that didn't you.

Considering I acknowledge his inconsistency on other surfaces, the chokes and the like, the last point wasn't really relevant as this is clay specific and not to overall careers, maybe more like Costa instead of Corretja who are disrespected but that's where they come from more than anything else.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 08:46 PM
I don't think anyone would ever disagree with the fact that Gaudio is a great claycourt player. He's proved it by winning important matches and titles.
But he did not win that RG final. Coria lost it. He showed it in the first two sets. He blew him off court. Even though a cramp is not an injury, it's a physical disadvantage for a player and therefore will affect the player's game. That happened to Coria and we all know that if it hadn't happened the final result would have been different.
He might have beated Nalbandian fairly well... even though he was injured aswell. I mean, the score would have been different if he hadn't been injured but, I'm not sure, could have beated David anyway.

I give 100% credit for the other matches that he played untill the semis.
Of course the Roland Garros title gave him the confidence he needed to start winning more and believe in himself. But I want to wait untill the clay season to see if he can actually do well the big tournaments.

And GWH, I think Gaudio is highly respected as a claycourter, but not as much as a player.

I also think I get more bothered and annoyed by the crowd here than Gaudio himself.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 08:54 PM
But he did not win that RG final. Coria lost it. He showed it in the first two sets. He blew him off court. Even though a cramp is not an injury, it's a physical disadvantage for a player and therefore will affect the player's game. That happened to Coria and we all know that if it hadn't happened the final result would have been different.

Ok, do I really need to go through this again. It looks like I am going to.

1. Whose fault was it that they couldn't manage the respective situation?
2. Since when hasn't physical preparation not been important in tennis?
3. How didn't Coria benefit from a total nervous Gaudio who gave him the first 2 sets?
4. It's not out plausible that the fact that Coria was nervous, in addition to Gaudio playing better in the 3rd set were reasons apart from a lack of fitness on Coria's behalf?
5. Like no one has ever come back from 2 sets to love down before?

He might have beated Nalbandian fairly well... even though he was injured aswell. I mean, the score would have been different if he hadn't been injured but, I'm not sure, could have beated David anyway.

Just an excuse, if you are that injured, then don't play. Nalbandian didn't use injury as an excuse for getting beaten. Gaudio on his best surface and Nalbandian not on his favourite and you can guarantee that the result would be different?

Choupi
02-13-2005, 08:58 PM
Wow! I see that this question is still unchaining such passions and passionate debates...Well done George! :D

federer express
02-13-2005, 09:03 PM
when a player wins a slam, thats it. its no good saying they didn't have the toughest draw or their opponent bottled it. johansson at the aussie open in 2002 is the perfect example. the only top player he beat was safin but thats not johansson's fault. the other top players lost to someone. and if safin bottled it, again not johansson's concern. he did everything he had to and became a slam champion. by the same token there is no point saying coria bottled it or lost it instead of gaudio winning it. gaudio won the last point and hauled himself back into the match when losing the 3rd 6-1 or 6-2 would have been all too easy after the first two sets.ppl here need to give credit when its deserved, even if the player isn't necessarily their favourite

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:06 PM
lol. love watching the french. and that year had leconte beating becker (someone he rarely got the better off in an amazing 5 sets) and reaching the final before sadly being hammered by wilander. (nothing against wilander, was just a sad sight seeing the home player and my fave booed and dismantled in the biggest match of his career). and in 90 and 92he played chesnokov and kulti there in two of my favourite ever matches. beyond that, are always epic matches there. and..always loved the build-up, especially monte carlo and hamburg. never been a clay hater.

That was said Henri getting the treatment from the crowd match. As much I liked Henri I didn't like it when he beat Chesnokov ( as he always did :mad: ), but there is something special about the venue. Guga's first run in 97, Safin in 98, Medvedev stupidly losing in 99, Muster finally winning one and the like.

federer express
02-13-2005, 09:10 PM
yup...dont think he was as successful against anyone as he was chesnokov. as a big leconte fan, was always happy to see him get andrei

federer express
02-13-2005, 09:11 PM
there is something special about the venue. Guga's first run in 97, Safin in 98, Medvedev stupidly losing in 99, Muster finally winning one and the like.

there are great moments at RG.....every year it seems

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 09:14 PM
Just an excuse, if you are that injured, then don't play. Nalbandian didn't use injury as an excuse for getting beaten. Gaudio on his best surface and Nalbandian not on his favourite and you can guarantee that the result would be different?

I'm pretty much sure it wouldn't have been in straight sets, but never said that he wouldn't have won.

1. Whose fault was it that they couldn't manage the respective situation?
Sorry I don't get this one.

2. Since when hasn't physical preparation not been important in tennis?
I'm sure Coria was physically preparated and didn't expect what happened.

3. How didn't Coria benefit from a total nervous Gaudio who gave him the first 2 sets?
What makes you think Coria wasn't nervous?

4. It's not out plausible that the fact that Coria was nervous, in addition to Gaudio playing better in the 3rd set were reasons apart from a lack of fitness on Coria's behalf?
Probably, Gaudio certainly did play better in the third set, I'm not saying that he didn't but Coria's lack of fitness was a big issue aswell.

5. Like no one has ever come back from 2 sets to love down before?

Never said that.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:15 PM
yup...dont think he was as successful against anyone as he was chesnokov. as a big leconte fan, was always happy to see him get andrei

You would, he always had the way to get through.

RogiFan88
02-13-2005, 09:19 PM
I wouldn't know beating Costa in front of his own people at Barcelona, dismantling Guga when he won Mallorca, beating Gonzalez in Chile and winning the RG final against a heavy favourite I wouldn't know I don't call them mickey mouse victories.

...unlike winning St Poelten :p

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:24 PM
I'm pretty much sure it wouldn't have been in straight sets, but never said that he wouldn't have won.

There might be some confusion there. I thought you were saying that if Nalbandian wasn't injured, he would have won and that's an unknown and what ifs don't mean that much.

Sorry I don't get this one.

Coria said himself it was anxiety of the situation at the time when it was 4-4 that helped lead to the cramps.

I'm sure Coria was physically preparated and didn't expect what happened.

You're kidding aren't you? He hardly had a tough match and didn't have a 5 setter before the final and should have been fresh as and someone who is that physically prepared shouldn't be cramping after 90 mins especially given his tournament at the time. He has a problem with physical conditioning and knows that himself and he wasn't prepared well enough to encounter the moment.

What makes you think Coria wasn't nervous?

Well Coria has played in big matches and more of them than Gaudio, plus all he had to do was the place the ball in the court and got plenty of help from Gaudio. At the time it was the right tactic and he settled down much quicker.

Probably, Gaudio certainly did play better in the third set, I'm not saying that he didn't but Coria's lack of fitness was a big issue aswell.

You just contradicted yourself, you said he was physically well prepared before, yet you say in the above that he had a lack of fitness. Which one is it?

Never said that.

You're the one trying to discredit Gaudio winning not me.

Neely
02-13-2005, 09:24 PM
It's not one specific thing, it's more a combination of minor irritating things.
Okay, I will then take this an answer for my question wondering what makes you feel that Gaudio doesn't get the respect he should deserve, even though I would have preferred a more detailed answer. But then again, if you wanted to tell me going into further detail or if it was something that is describable, I guess you would have done that already.

I can accept this, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But still I'm saying that I don't get it yet correctly because, as I said already, for me it's a strange moment asking such questions if Gaudio is getting enough questions when I see at the same time that he has umpteen of fans, that his matches are discussed by many people here, that hundreds of post were written in his forums during the last days alone, that half the tournament forum is cheering for him during his matches... etc. :) looks all pretty good, but not like a situation where nobody pays attention to him or doesn't acknowledge his recent efforts.

And that's why I didn't get it... at least I hope you are getting what I'm trying to say LOL
not that we're talking at cross-purposes

Cervantes
02-13-2005, 09:29 PM
Ok, so since you know it I thought you'd be aware of his respective records against Ferrero, Kuerten, Moya and Coria on the surface all very respectable and Ferrero got 2 wins more than he should have because of Gaston's choking and that's only Gaudio's fault and no one elses. Then again you knew that didn't you.

Considering I acknowledge his inconsistency on other surfaces, the chokes and the like, the last point wasn't really relevant as this is clay specific and not to overall careers, maybe more like Costa instead of Corretja who are disrespected but that's where they come from more than anything else.

Lol, you're talking as if I don't respect Gaudio for his achievements, but I do. However Ferrero, Kuerten, Moya and Coria have won more titles (and bigger titles) that's why I rank them above Gaudio. Anyway, Gaudio will enter this elite clay group if he wins one of the upcoming clay TMS events.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:29 PM
Okay, I will then take this an answer for my question wondering what makes you feel that Gaudio doesn't get the respect he should deserve, even though I would have preferred a more detailed answer. But then again, if you wanted to tell me going into further detail or if it was something that is describable, I guess you would have done that already.


I will go into more detail later. I have just been doing a lot of reading and editing and that was truly shitty.

It could be the fact that he going through a more successful period a very respectable performance at AO and 2 tournament wins as well, it's just the other stuff and probably goes back to all the crap that much better players got because they did better on clay than elsewhere and even had the good results off the surface as well.

Chloe le Bopper
02-13-2005, 09:30 PM
I vaguely recall you dismissing Coria's winning streak on clay, saying that he wasn't fit to tie Muster's laces as he approached Muster's streak.... however, in order to break that streak he would have had to have won the Hamburg and Roland Garros finals. Which he didn't. My point is just that you throw a hissy over people not giving credit to Gaudio, but you sure had a hard time doing it for Coria when he won titles of a similar calibre to what Gaudio just pulled off over the past two weeks. Unless I missed something, of course.

Natasc
02-13-2005, 09:32 PM
I'm pretty much sure it wouldn't have been in straight sets, but never said that he wouldn't have won.


Sorry I don't get this one.


I'm sure Coria was physically preparated and didn't expect what happened.


What makes you think Coria wasn't nervous?


Probably, Gaudio certainly did play better in the third set, I'm not saying that he didn't but Coria's lack of fitness was a big issue aswell.



Never said that.
Just one thing about Coria loss in RG: HE CHOKED
Everyone knows that Coria is a choker
if Coria marrie with Momo...I cant imagine how they son will be

before Rg Coria was the best in clay
but after RG Gaudio is THE NAME

Coria need to be less choker for win a GS....

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:37 PM
Gaudio is not in Muster's class and won't ever will be. Even if Gaudio won Båstad, Stuttgart and Kitzbhuel instead of losing them in 2004, yes it would be good, but still wouldn't count for much as there wouldn't be a TMS in there, though RG makes up for that partially.

In comparison to Muster's achievements Coria streak was weaker mainly for the fact that he didn't win 2 TMS events and RG in the process, that was where I had the problem. If he won 2 TMS events and RG then all the power to him.

Both did have an IS Gold event Barcelona and Kitzbhuel respectively.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 09:38 PM
You're kidding aren't you? He hardly had a tough match and didn't have a 5 setter before the final and should have been fresh as and someone who is that physically prepared shouldn't be cramping after 90 mins especially given his tournament at the time. He has a problem with physical conditioning and knows that himself and he wasn't prepared well enough to encounter the moment.

I repeat, he was physically prepared for that match, but, as Coria himself said, his mind betrayed (sp?) him in the important moments of the match and that lead to the cramps.

Well Coria has played in big matches and more of them than Gaudio, plus all he had to do was the place the ball in the court and got plenty of help from Gaudio. At the time it was the right tactic and he settled down much quicker.

Neither of them had played a GS final and that is something completely different to any other final of any other tournament, specially Roland Garros where Coria was the biggest candidate to win the title.

You just contradicted yourself, you said he was physically well prepared before, yet you say in the above that he had a lack of fitness. Which one is it?

Sorry, by lack of fitness I was refering to the cramps.


I won't continue with this, we both have different points of view regarding this issue. You won't agree with me and I won't agree with you so let's just drop it.

Chloe le Bopper
02-13-2005, 09:39 PM
Gaudio is not in Muster's class and won't ever will be. Even if Gaudio won Båstad, Stuttgart and Kitzbhuel instead of losing them in 2004, yes it would be good, but still wouldn't count for much as there wouldn't be a TMS in there, though RG makes up for that partially.

In comparison to Muster's achievements Coria streak was weaker mainly for the fact that he didn't win a top IS, 2 TMS events and RG in the process, that was where I had the problem. If he won 2 TMS events and RG then all the power to him.
Yes, but in order to break Muster's streak, Coria would have had to have done just that... and, of course, he did not. But that didn't stop people from criticizing him at the time, yourself included... despite the fact that I pointed this out at the time... on numerous occasions.

Oh well.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:42 PM
Yes, but in order to break Muster's streak, Coria would have had to have done just that... and, of course, he did not. But that didn't stop people from criticizing him at the time, yourself included... despite the fact that I pointed this out at the time... on numerous occasions.

Oh well.

He could have broke it by playing Barcelona and Rome but couldn't through injury and that is what I was critical of moreso at the time that the possibility of it being broken by him not winning RG.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
I repeat, he was physically prepared for that match, but, as Coria himself said, his mind betrayed (sp?) him in the important moments of the match and that lead to the cramps.

Considering that was the 1st question I asked is it Gaudio's fault that Coria couldn't manage the situation he was in.

Neither of them had played a GS final and that is something completely different to any other final of any other tournament, specially Roland Garros where Coria was the biggest candidate to win the title.

Who settled quicker? Who was able to put the ball in the court in the first 2 sets you know the answer to that and that would lead to the conclusion that Coria settled down quicker of the two.

I won't continue with this, we both have different points of view regarding this issue. You won't agree with me and I won't agree with you so let's just drop it.

The only problem I have is people blaming cramping when it's preventable.

Natasc
02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
Coria has a terrible behavior
he's just like Sharapova and Williams
has always an excuse....

Sjengster
02-13-2005, 09:47 PM
Lurker said last year, that it summed up the difference between Coria and Gaudio that the former won three titles in a row over the summer and the latter lost three finals in a row over the same period. I'm certainly hoping Gaudio can maintain this consistency on clay at the big events and pick up a TMS title in the spring, since Coria has definitely performed better at the major clay events and picked up the silverware - up until the RG final, at least. At the moment, on current form, Gaudio is in the Top 5 of claycourt players, alongside Coria, Moya, Federer and Nalbandian.

I sometimes think people forget how much help Coria got from Gaudio in those first two sets of the RG final. I missed the first three games thanks to Eurosport, but when they went over to the match the commentator mentioned that Gaudio actually tried serve-volleying in his first couple of service games to put the pressure on, and unsurprisingly lost them both. He was double-faulting away his serve from 40-0 up, shouting to his coach that he didn't want to be there, and playing with a racket that was strung too tightly - in the third set, he switched to a looser strung racket and began to get more pace and penetration on his shots, a difference noted by the commentators. Coria did not "blow him away" for those two sets, because that is not Coria's game - when Gaudio actually started to extend the rallies and not give cheap errors away, Coria became nervous and went for too much himself to try and finish the match off quickly. Gaudio should be given credit for that, and credit for controlling his nerves just in time during the final set, which would have gone down as one of the great chokes had he lost to someone who could barely even serve at that stage of the match.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:48 PM
Lol, you're talking as if I don't respect Gaudio for his achievements, but I do. However Ferrero, Kuerten, Moya and Coria have won more titles (and bigger titles) that's why I rank them above Gaudio. Anyway, Gaudio will enter this elite clay group if he wins one of the upcoming clay TMS events.

The first 3 have won the one that counts which is something Coria hasn't done yet, but should eventually.

I wouldn't call him the best claycourter at the moment. I am happy with one of the best and I think we can agree on that.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 09:49 PM
Just one thing about Coria loss in RG: HE CHOKED
Everyone knows that Coria is a choker
if Coria marrie with Momo...I cant imagine how they son will be

Oh. My. God. You have got to be joking. You know what the word choke means, right? When a player starts playing like crap and loses after been winning, NOT when a player is winning and gets cramps, and fights till the last point even though he can barely run. Choke is what Gaston did in the AO 3rd round against Hyrbati.

Everyone knows Coria's a choker? Please tell me when did he choke?

before Rg Coria was the best in clay
but after RG Gaudio is THE NAME

I never heard Costa being called the best player on clay.

Coria didn't play much after RG because of his shoulder injury, but he did play the whole grass season, trying to improve, not just staying with his clay results. But that's another issue of course.

Coria need to be less choker for win a GS....

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time :haha:

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:52 PM
Lurker said last year, that it summed up the difference between Coria and Gaudio that the former won three titles in a row over the summer and the latter lost three finals in a row over the same period. I'm certainly hoping Gaudio can maintain this consistency on clay at the big events and pick up a TMS title in the spring, since Coria has definitely performed better at the major clay events and picked up the silverware - up until the RG final, at least. At the moment, on current form, Gaudio is in the Top 5 of claycourt players, alongside Coria, Moya, Federer and Nalbandian.


Yes, winning the finals people remember that and not who finishes as the losing finalist and Lurker made a very good point.

Sjengster, what you are refering to is to selective memory. If it wasn't for the wave that match would have been nearly as long as the women's final.

Chloe le Bopper
02-13-2005, 09:53 PM
Everyone knows Coria's a choker? Please tell me when did he choke?

Roddick at the masters cup (2003) comes to mind...

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:54 PM
Choke is what Gaston did in the AO 3rd round against Hrbaty

Both players threw away opportunities. Hrbaty was fiitter in the warm conditions and used that to his advantage, it wasn't a choke Gaudio cramped in the 4th set and wasn't sufficiently prepared for this match and duly got beaten.

Sjengster
02-13-2005, 09:54 PM
I also think it's laughable to suggest that the mind was the only thing that let Coria down when he developed those cramps. It's not as though he was the model of fitness last year outside RG, even before the injury lay-off he had in the second half of the year he had the kidney stone problem in the Miami final and the blisters in the Hamburg final. To get to the RG final I think he had to play something like 12 hours on court to Gaudio's 18, his longest match being against Henman, but he still began cramping after two and a half sets.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:55 PM
Roddick at the masters cup (2003) comes to mind...

He's had more people choke against him than the other way around.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:57 PM
I also think it's laughable to suggest that the mind was the only thing that let Coria down when he developed those cramps. It's not as though he was the model of fitness last year outside RG, even before the injury lay-off he had in the second half of the year he had the kidney stone problem in the Miami final and the blisters in the Hamburg final. To get to the RG final I think he had to play something like 12 hours on court to Gaudio's 18, his longest match being against Henman, but he still began cramping after two and a half sets.

I said that before, but most Coria fans will acknowledge that he really needs to do more fitness and strength work and this is one of the most painful examples as why this is the case.

Choupi
02-13-2005, 09:57 PM
I repeat, he was physically prepared for that match, but, as Coria himself said, his mind betrayed (sp?) him in the important moments of the match and that lead to the cramps.
OK, I know I'm no specialist but can sbdy explain this to me? So far, I've been convinced that cramps had only a physical cause. Lack of training for example. I never knew that only the mind could have such a determining impact on them. So, is it possible, being totally physically well trained, to get cramps? I can't get over it, sorry!

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 09:58 PM
OK, I know I'm no specialist but can sbdy explain this to me? So far, I've been convinced that cramps had only a physical cause. Lack of training for example. I never knew that only the mind could have such a determining impact on them. So, is it possible, being totally physically well trained, to get cramps? I can't get over it, sorry!

Anxiety and nervousness can cause the muscles to tighten which lead to cramps.

Sjengster
02-13-2005, 09:59 PM
Yes, when you play three tiebreak sets that last over three hours and then win only four games in the last two sets, that doesn't sound like a choke to me. Hrbaty is Superman in long matches, not something that can be said for Gaudio or Coria. Honestly, there are enough examples of Gaudio chokes in recent years to mention, there's no need to invent another one.

Chloe le Bopper
02-13-2005, 10:00 PM
He's had more people choke against him than the other way around.
Gee, that's funny coming from somebody who made a thread to piss and moan that Gaudio doesn't get enough credit. Practice what you preach.

I'm going to go study rather than continue this monotonous dialogue. You're being a hypocrite.

Choupi
02-13-2005, 10:01 PM
Anxiety and nervousness can cause the muscles to tighten which lead to cramps.
What I'm gonna say is so obvious that I'm quite ashamed to state it...That means the mind needs as much, if not more, training than the body.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 10:01 PM
Roddick at the masters cup (2003) comes to mind...


Roddick started playing better... I don't remember the match too well but if you say so.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 10:05 PM
What I'm gonna say is so obvious that I'm quite ashamed to state it...That means the mind needs as much, if not more, training than the body.


I don't know if more, but definitely as much training as the body.
You don't remember which was (or is) Gaudio's major problem in matches?

Sjengster
02-13-2005, 10:06 PM
What Roddick did was start getting angry, and an obviously intimidated Coria then forgot how to keep the ball in court from 3-1 up in the deciding set.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 10:06 PM
Gee, that's funny coming from somebody who made a thread to piss and moan that Gaudio doesn't get enough credit. Practice what you preach.

I'm going to go study rather than continue this monotonous dialogue. You're being a hypocrite.

Take that wrong way it's actually a testimony to Coria's ability to win matches. He has won a lot of matches and that's why the RG final was a surprise that he wasn't able to do it, he doesn't have the general reputation as a choker.

The clearest example was the Gonzalez match at Miami when he dug in and Gonzalez blew his chances and Coria just took it away and wasn't going to lose after he won the 2nd set.

How is that hypocritical?

Choupi
02-13-2005, 10:12 PM
You don't remember which was (or is) Gaudio's major problem in matches?
Is it a joke? Being a Gaudio fan for quite a long time now, how could I ignore it? Why do you think I've said it was so obvious...

Natasc
02-13-2005, 10:12 PM
Oh. My. God. You have got to be joking. You know what the word choke means, right? When a player starts playing like crap and loses after been winning, NOT when a player is winning and gets cramps, and fights till the last point even though he can barely run. Choke is what Gaston did in the AO 3rd round against Hyrbati.

Everyone knows Coria's a choker? Please tell me when did he choke?



I never heard Costa being called the best player on clay.

Coria didn't play much after RG because of his shoulder injury, but he did play the whole grass season, trying to improve, not just staying with his clay results. But that's another issue of course.



This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time :haha:
I know what is choke
and coria as everyone know is a choker
he was wining of 2-0 in rg then...PUFFF he choke

and about Costa...he did make all finals of clay tournaments after he won the title?....I dont think so

Natasc
02-13-2005, 10:14 PM
I don't know if more, but definitely as much training as the body.
You don't remember which was (or is) Gaudio's major problem in matches?
Coria problem is: He dont have power and he's a choker

he's to thin and he dont have power, look Safin and Roddick making a forehand than look Coria :rolleyes: ....

Wulfram
02-13-2005, 10:15 PM
One Slam Winners almost never get the respect that they deserve. Gaudio would probably have to win RG again for people to get over the idea that his win was a fluke, I'm afraid.

RogiFan88
02-13-2005, 10:17 PM
Lurker said last year, that it summed up the difference between Coria and Gaudio that the former won three titles in a row over the summer and the latter lost three finals in a row over the same period. I'm certainly hoping Gaudio can maintain this consistency on clay at the big events and pick up a TMS title in the spring, since Coria has definitely performed better at the major clay events and picked up the silverware - up until the RG final, at least. At the moment, on current form, Gaudio is in the Top 5 of claycourt players, alongside Coria, Moya, Federer and Nalbandian.

Federer? I thought he SUCKED on clay... ;) hee hee... no, only at RG, Philippe Chatrier. :p

I sometimes think people forget how much help Coria got from Gaudio in those first two sets of the RG final. I missed the first three games thanks to Eurosport, but when they went over to the match the commentator mentioned that Gaudio actually tried serve-volleying in his first couple of service games to put the pressure on, and unsurprisingly lost them both. He was double-faulting away his serve from 40-0 up, shouting to his coach that he didn't want to be there, and playing with a racket that was strung too tightly - in the third set, he switched to a looser strung racket and began to get more pace and penetration on his shots, a difference noted by the commentators. Coria did not "blow him away" for those two sets, because that is not Coria's game - when Gaudio actually started to extend the rallies and not give cheap errors away, Coria became nervous and went for too much himself to try and finish the match off quickly. Gaudio should be given credit for that, and credit for controlling his nerves just in time during the final set, which would have gone down as one of the great chokes had he lost to someone who could barely even serve at that stage of the match.

I completely agree w your last sentence... acc. to most detractors, Gaudio w have "choked" away that 3rd set and given Coria the trophy.

And no, Coria is NOT a choker. He just wanted RG so badly, he put a ton of pressure on himself -- cramping was a manifestation of his obsession to win that prize that he had prepared himself for so carefully. His mental DID get to him physically in the end... too bad for Guille.

As for Hamburg... hmmm... must watch that match again... can't remember how he lost that one... ;)

RonE
02-13-2005, 10:26 PM
I think the reason some people tend to discredit Gaudio has to do with his image as a choker and someone who does not always give 100% of his all on other surfaces.

Many people find it inconceivable that someone who has shown those qualities in the past comes out and wins a Grand Slam no matter how well he played therefore they rationalize by saying "he was lucky" or he had "weak opposition" etc.

As for "one-slam wonders" being discredited that is not always true- I can think of several such players who were not: Stich, Noah, Ivanisevic, Muster although the latter of those was discredited for reaching #1 not for his RG victory.

Carito_90
02-13-2005, 10:27 PM
I know what is choke
and coria as everyone know is a choker
he was wining of 2-0 in rg then...PUFFF he choke

and about Costa...he did make all finals of clay tournaments after he won the title?....I dont think so

I don't see anyone backing you up in your 'coria is a choker' statement.

I don't get it though, people try to give more credit to Gaudio on his RG win... yet Natasc says Coria choked... and that's why Gaudio won? Poor Gaudio, give the guy some credit :lol:

Its more like he's winning 2-0 and then... PFF he gets cramps and loses the next two sets. The last set was tough for both, they fought for it... Gaudio should be very happy he won that one because if not it would have certainly been worse that the 2003 DC SF loss against Moya and Ferrero.

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 10:36 PM
I think the reason some people tend to discredit Gaudio has to do with his image as a choker and someone who does not always give 100% of his all on other surfaces.

Well he's not known for the Cañas grit and as for the last one nothing could top his effort at the USO against Gambill.

As for "one-slam wonders" being discredited that is not always true- I can think of several such players who were not: Stich, Noah, Ivanisevic, Muster although the latter of those was discredited for reaching #1 not for his RG victory.

Don't forget that Stich and Ivanisevic did win Wimbledon as their only Slam in comparison to Muster and Gaudio, to be fair Stich was good on all surfaces and made Slam finals at 2 other events.

Better to be a 1 Slam wonder on a fast surface. :p

Sjengster
02-13-2005, 10:43 PM
The ultimate reason why people still discredit Gaudio's victory is because it ruined the script. Everything was set up perfectly for Guille to win the title that is "his destiny", he was labelled the victor before he'd even played the final by some people on here. Let us not forget the illustrious words of Tennis Fool, appalled at the number of people who voted hoping for Henman to beat Coria in a poll before their semifinal: "I'll be disgusted if he loses a set in either of his last two matches." After the drug suspension, to win the title so convincingly would have been the perfect riposte. It would have made an even better story if he had been cruising, suddenly developed physical problems and been pushed all the way into a fifth set, only to fight through the pain and eventually triumph. How noble, what a fighter.

Unfortunately, instead of being professional and thrashing Coria in the final set like he should have done, Gaudio gagged so much that he almost let Coria take the victory, and then suddenly, just to wreck the crowd's expectations, said "Hang on a minute, I'd rather win this actually", and clawed out the win while laughing to his coach at the absurdity of it all. And that, my friends, is the beauty of Gaudio.

Choupi
02-13-2005, 10:46 PM
Federer? I thought he SUCKED on clay... ;) hee hee... no, only at RG, Philippe Chatrier. :p There's definitely a bad spell on this court...Coria has lost on it too! ;)

Action Jackson
02-13-2005, 10:48 PM
Yes, I remember the illustrious words of Tennis Fool.

Then there was the poll where people asked who they thought would win Gaudio or Coria and the majority here went for Gaudio and it would have been more if some of the Gaudio fans weren't so realistic. That was surprising, though I think it was motivated more by the loathing of Coria.

Yes, the script was perfectly made, but the ending wasn't so perfect for some.

Natasc
02-13-2005, 10:51 PM
I don't see anyone backing you up in your 'coria is a choker' statement.

I don't get it though, people try to give more credit to Gaudio on his RG win... yet Natasc says Coria choked... and that's why Gaudio won? Poor Gaudio, give the guy some credit :lol:

Its more like he's winning 2-0 and then... PFF he gets cramps and loses the next two sets. The last set was tough for both, they fought for it... Gaudio should be very happy he won that one because if not it would have certainly been worse that the 2003 DC SF loss against Moya and Ferrero.
true...gaudio did pretty, but Coria was a better player than gaudio at that time. much better, but he choked and gaudio won confidence
now Gaudio is better. much bette rthan he was

Carito_90
02-14-2005, 01:29 AM
God, again? He didn't choke, he got CRAMPS and couldn't effing run. If I played you and I was winning and got cramps and can't run you'll eventually win, because if not you're the choker. The same happened there.
Gaudio is not better than he was before, he has always been good, the difference is the cofidence he has now than he one he had 7 months ago or so.

Choupi
02-14-2005, 09:16 AM
Gaudio is not better than he was before, he has always been good, the difference is the cofidence he has now than he one he had 7 months ago or so.
If he has gained self-confidence, then it implies that he's better.

NiciSunflower
02-14-2005, 09:51 AM
Guys, I just love reading this whole dialogue and congrats to you GWH that you teased so many people to join the discussion, though it's mainly on that old Coria-Gaudio issue again.

It reminds a little bit of the Becker-Stich issue during the 90s...

Someone mentioned the media factor before and I just wanna know if anyone thinks that media attention is equal to respect, for I believe it just gives you more publicity and not necessarily more respect.