When Does an Injury Timeout Classify as a "Cheat"? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

When Does an Injury Timeout Classify as a "Cheat"?

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 12:21 PM
It's already been well established by the objective experts on this board that it's a cheat everytime that Coria does it, even when he follows it up with several months off tour. It's also been established that when Hewitt and Safin do it, it doesn't count, and is thus totally legit.

So I was hoping that for my own benefit, the armchair experts here at MTF could break it down for me and properly define when exactly an injury timeout becomes a "cheat". I would like to know so that I can spot one the second that a player calls it on TV and post a thread immediately, calling them on their cheating ways.

Thanks!

Rogiman
02-03-2005, 12:24 PM
I'm not in the mood to reply this :yawn:

But I'm glad you're here anyway! :wavey:

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 12:26 PM
I'm not in the mood to reply this :yawn:

That's a shame, because it's a very important issue. I don't know how I"ll get through the next televised tournament without having the trained eye to spot a cheat from a mile away and immediately throw up a thread about it!

But I'm glad you're here anyway! :wavey:

Not for long! I have a bus to catch in half an hour. Boooo 10am class.

Action Jackson
02-03-2005, 12:28 PM
I will answer this later.

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 12:29 PM
I will answer this later.
Thank goodness. I can't bear the thought of another day passing without my also becoming an expert. I do hope that you answer it seriously!

Rogiman
02-03-2005, 12:30 PM
That's a shame, because it's a very important issue. I don't know how I"ll get through the next televised tournament without having the trained eye to spot a cheat from a mile away and immediately throw up a thread about it! .

You know and I know it's all rubbish.
Any player should be able to take a short break whenever he feels like, it's an individual sport and you have no one to help you mentally on court, so taking a short break even for psychological reasons seems totally fine to me, as long as it's short.


Not for long! I have a bus to catch in half an hour. Boooo 10am class.

Too bad for you, these are none-of my business any more... :devil:

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 12:34 PM
You know and I know it's all rubbish.
Any player should be able to take a short break whenever he feels like, it's an individual sport and you have no one to help you mentally on court, so taking a short break even for psychological reasons seems totally fine to me, as long as it's short.

Boooo! This doesn't help me call out the Cheetah's! I want to call CHEETAH!


Too bad for you, these are none-of my business any more... :devil:[/quote]

Well, I only have three days of class. I can't really complain.

Experimentee
02-03-2005, 12:40 PM
It is not cheating to take a timeout, but it is gamesmanship. Both players like to have an uninterrupted match where the outcome depends on skills and fitness alone.
Of course it is ok to take a timeout where there is a legitimate injury concern, but for purposes such as disrupting the opponent's rhythm, it is not on.

Leena
02-03-2005, 01:24 PM
On this network of boards, it entirely depends who the player is...

If Justine takes one... CHEAT!! Venus takes one... aww, you dun need be playin' anymore baby gurl!! But you fighter!! Keep fightin!!

Random Spanish player takes one... Please get better. Roddick steps on court... CHEAT!! DIE!!

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 03:26 PM
It's already been well established by the objective experts on this board that it's a cheat everytime that Coria does it, even when he follows it up with several months off tour. It's also been established that when Hewitt and Safin do it, it doesn't count, and is thus totally legit.

So I was hoping that for my own benefit, the armchair experts here at MTF could break it down for me and properly define when exactly an injury timeout becomes a "cheat". I would like to know so that I can spot one the second that a player calls it on TV and post a thread immediately, calling them on their cheating ways.

Thanks!

Obviously when Robredo takes one he's a cheetah! But he's got fine ass so that's eliminates the element of cheating.

When Coria takes one he's a cheetah! Unless it's Roddick's superb play that caused him the injury. In such case, tough luck.

Serena is a cheetah,because she takes a break and then few days after plays an exhibition!

That's top 3!

athie
02-03-2005, 03:52 PM
My own personal opinion is pretty much the same as what Experimentee has already said.
It’s more of a ‘gamesmanship’ issue and some of the players who have been mentioned are renowned for taking ‘advantage’ of injury timeouts.
It’s pretty hard to define a line between someone taking advantage of a situation and blatant cheating tho.

P.S. is Chloe Rebecca btw?

niko
02-03-2005, 04:53 PM
Is it illigal to take an Injury Time? If it's not then what's your problem take one too. :)

alfonsojose
02-03-2005, 04:56 PM
When the player is Coria :tape:

BTW, I miss Becca :sad: Chloe sounds like a perfume and you're such a mean nasty diva ;) :hug: Maybe u, Leena and Fee could tie me up and bring me back to the hetero zone ;) .. but i guess i would come back ASAP .. where's Rainer? :drool:

Neely
02-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Very good thread and fair question!

My reasoning is that something (injury timeout) that is not against the rules is not cheating. Furthermore, my reasoning is that it's not our job to judge from watching the match if the player is really injured or not and if is, therefore, classified as gamesmanship. Only the players themselves (and maybe experienced physios) know what's really going on with their bodies.

So cheating when somebody takes his injury timeout, that the rules award to him, does not exist for me.
And saying it is gamesmanship is very very difficult to prove... and as long as it is not proved as "faking an injury" and applying gamesmanship I would say: in dubio pro reo for the player instead of accusing him/her wrongfully.


Somebody takes an injury timeout at a critical moment? Is it gamesmanship? No, because
(1) if he really needs it, he should take it. The rules allow him that. After he lost the match or maybe a crucial game, it doesn't use him anymore. Sometimes a new tape, a message or whatever is already enough to help immediately.
(2) if his opponent is strong enough and if he has the needs to win, he is holding his game together at any time when it counts, no matter if the match resumes in 5 minutes or if it would next week.


P.S. is Chloe Rebecca btw?
yes

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 07:39 PM
Good analysis, Neely. Thanks for the responses everybody.

I brought this up, in part, to point out the absurdity with which people approach the issue on this board (ie: I like this player, so they were clearly actually hurt. However, I hate this player, do despite the fact that he won't play again for another 4 weeks, he was just faking it), but it's nice to see some serious replies too. When I'm feeling a little more thoughful, I'll take the time to respond to them individually.

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 07:56 PM
Good analysis, Neely. Thanks for the responses everybody.

I brought this up, in part, to point out the absurdity with which people approach the issue on this board (ie: I like this player, so they were clearly actually hurt. However, I hate this player, do despite the fact that he won't play again for another 4 weeks, he was just faking it), but it's nice to see some serious replies too. When I'm feeling a little more thoughful, I'll take the time to respond to them individually.


This answer is more than enough!

And I don't know what you are talking about. I don't judge it by my likes and dislikes...but Coria is a cheetah and Marat is not!

Leena
02-03-2005, 08:06 PM
Fish and Gimelstob are also cheaters, despite not using their cheating powers for any use.

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 08:08 PM
This answer is more than enough!

And I don't know what you are talking about. I don't judge it by my likes and dislikes...but Coria is a cheetah and Marat is not!
Ginepri is a big cheater too.

Robredo is not a cheatah because his ass is mesmorizing.

Leena
02-03-2005, 08:12 PM
You're catching on.

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 08:14 PM
Ginepri is the poisonous cheetah! Obviously there's no bigger cheetah than Justine's hand!

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 08:18 PM
Justine's hand is pretty big :(

Leena
02-03-2005, 08:19 PM
Even bigger than Rena's ass?

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 08:19 PM
Chloe is the master cheetah! There's no way she could have got so many green dots without cheating!

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 08:21 PM
it's defenitely bigger than Gimelstob's calf..but then again so is my pinky.

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 08:22 PM
Chloe is the master cheetah! There's no way she could have got so many green dots without cheating!
I just have a lot of log in names. You found me out :(

Yes Leena, Justine's cheetah hand is bigger than Serena's cheetah ass. But only by a bit.

Gimelstob and calves do not belong in the same sentence together.

Leena
02-03-2005, 08:24 PM
You're not supposed to admit to it. :(

Chloe le Bopper
02-03-2005, 08:25 PM
I know, I'm such a loser :(

Naptime!

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 08:27 PM
LOSER!

Leena
02-03-2005, 08:28 PM
Only 5 year olds take naps.

Loser.

MagoRG
02-03-2005, 08:56 PM
It's already been well established by the objective experts on this board that it's a cheat everytime that Coria does it, even when he follows it up with several months off tour. It's also been established that when Hewitt and Safin do it, it doesn't count, and is thus totally legit.
Thanks!

I agree. Marat called a time out when he was 6-1 and 3-0 down ....after that he won 18 of 26 games. Some guys still think that Coria was faking in RG, and some other morons said that he was faking against nalbi...even when he was winning and the match had started 5 minutes before.

TennisLurker
02-04-2005, 12:39 AM
If they call the injury time out for the first time when their opponent is serving for match, and they remain unbothered by the injury during the rest of the tournament or next week, I think we can safely say they are CHEETAHS

EXAMPLES

ROBREDO ASS BARCELONA FINAL 2004

JUANCA MADRID TMS 2003 AGAINST OLD WAYNE

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:01 AM
Thank goodness. I can't bear the thought of another day passing without my also becoming an expert. I do hope that you answer it seriously!

I sincerely doubt whether you want me to answer this seriously.

If you want an example it's pretty clear you read my report on the Gaudio/Hrbaty match and what I thought of Gaudio taking an injury timeout for cramps in the middle of a service game for which he was leading.

Well Robredo in the Barcelona final last year what he did was absolute garbage, then after that doesn't lose a point for the rest of the match on serve. He tried the same shit at RG, but it wasn't successful.

Then there was Coria in 2003 Hamburg semi final I am sorry you don't recover that quickly after looking like death warmed up and moving even better than before than when the timeout was taken. The thing is Coria has a lot of form for it or do you want more examples, sure there have been times when he has been injured, but there are others when he has faked it and people don't forget that easily.

Gonzalez took one against Acasuso at the Aus Open, then afterwards he was playing better and changed the momentum of the match, sure he wasn't feeling great, but it didn't deserve for an injury time out, just cause you are tired that's not an excuse at all and was an act of gamesmanship.

This is how it is, rules are there and of course there are people going to bend them and stretch to them the absolute limit and that is what's going on in these cases.

It's not illegal, therefore to the absolute letter it's not cheating, that doesn't mean the lines aren't blurred at all and there are some players who have "form" and they are known amongst their peers for antics like this.

robinhood
02-04-2005, 03:59 AM
I was beginning to wonder what Coria and Robredo ever did to be mentioned in this dishonor roll. Thank you, GeorgeWHitler for the clear explanations.

During the AO final this year, when Marat took the thigh massage in the 3rd set, Brad Gilbert and Chris Fowler were pretty unamused by it. And when Lleyton received the same massage after he lost that set, those two seemed very bothered by the fact that these two great players would abuse the rule at such important stage.

tennischick
02-04-2005, 04:03 AM
that's why we need to make the distinction between gamesmanship and flat out cheating. lots of players can be accused of the former. identifying the latter is a bit more tricky except for blatant infractions like being coached during a match.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 07:05 AM
TENNIS LURKER BITTER BARCELONA FINAL 2004

maratski
02-04-2005, 08:17 AM
I was beginning to wonder what Coria and Robredo ever did to be mentioned in this dishonor roll. Thank you, GeorgeWHitler for the clear explanations.

During the AO final this year, when Marat took the thigh massage in the 3rd set, Brad Gilbert and Chris Fowler were pretty unamused by it. And when Lleyton received the same massage after he lost that set, those two seemed very bothered by the fact that these two great players would abuse the rule at such important stage.

Lleyton has had some tough matches and was tired by the time he reached the final. A totally understandable time out. Marat seemed to be tired as well and the time out was necessary. He ate lots of bananas during that match, which he normally never does so why they weren't amused by it is a mystery to me.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 08:28 AM
That's not good enough for either Lleyton or Marat to take an injury time out during the final. I mean it's his own fault for being uptight and it's funny how the magic ointment was able to get the big man running so well afterwards.

Lleyton did have some tough matches and I think he was slightly injured, but at the same time it's a pre-existing injury, though with the rules he can say it was something else but the hip in this case and get treatment for it.

It wasn't great stuff by both players, in this case both of them did it mainly as a chance to regroup and Safin shouldn't have been allowed to get away it, but as I said earlier the rule is there and he is only stretching them as far as he can and many of the other players do the same sadly.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 09:04 AM
Truth is that when you're losing everything bothers you more. You also try to blame you trailing the other guy on the discomfort. So you take a time out. Understandable.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 09:20 AM
Truth is that when you're losing everything bothers you more. You also try to blame you trailing the other guy on the discomfort. So you take a time out. Understandable.

It's understandable in a way that most players are usually looking for an excuse to justify the bad performance, then again there some fans who are worse than their players in this regard.

Either way it's still a shitty way of doing things and at least I know I'm clear on this issue.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 09:30 AM
I understand you, but I also knwo how I react when I'm not feeling well and playing sports at the same time. Everything bothers me and I blame the injury. Once I played tennis and in the middle of teh 2nd set I got a terrible stomachache. I lost that set cause I was telling myself that I can't win it with that ache. Then everything went back to normal in the 3rd set. So a lot of it is in your brain.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 09:36 AM
For sure a lot of it's in the head and there have been a few moments like that for sure when I have played various sports in a team environment I can't let down the other members, in an individual situation I think no one else is going to do it, so I have to find a way to get through.

That's the thing when I get beaten at tennis, it's usually two things, the other player was better than me when it counted or I was crap and didn't deserve to win. I don't look for excuses or try and fake injuries or hook on calls and I know opponents have done that when the match is close.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 09:45 AM
Hmmm...it's not about faking an injury. During the match sometimes you really think sth is bothering you more that it really is. I don't hook up on calls either. If I did then it would be a lost match for me.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 09:50 AM
I have seen too many examples of acting on the court as the Coria Hamburg example, though he is far from the only player to do it, that's a deliberate attempt to throw off the other player, though in situations like this they have to be strong. Yes, as you said because you're losing then the alleged problem is worse than it is.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 10:00 AM
And then we reach the point where we have to judge if the player is really injured or just acting. Tough call to make. Of course Coria is faking...

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 10:07 AM
The line is very blurred as it is with many things. There are times when Coria has been genuinely injured this is true, but the problem is that he has "form" for the times he has acted like that and was not injured and this is not forgotten easily.

Robredo taking a timeout when serving for a match at 15-40 was very weak as well, there have been others as well I think it happens a bit on the WTA from the few matches I have seen, but there needs to be something implemented like for example, if the player wants to take a timeout not at a change of ends, then penalise them the game yes it's harsh, but it would get rid of some of the timewasting.

The injury timeout should be used for treating injuries, not nervous tension, not cramps, but there are other ways of cheating and gamesmanship as well.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 10:21 AM
but would it be fair to sb who is really injured?

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 10:43 AM
but would it be fair to sb who is really injured?

You'll find out whether they are injured or not in this case. If they are genuinely injured and can't continue then they should default the match.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 10:45 AM
hmmm..interesting idea...I disagree, unless it's Juanca with a wtisted ankle at FO.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 10:47 AM
I am sick of players abusing the rules in this case and this would stop the tactical timeout, then again they wouldn't get treatment for cramp that is soft getting treatment for loss of physical conditioning.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 10:57 AM
I'm not sure I get the 2nd part of your last post

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 10:58 AM
All I said was if I was in charge players wouldn't be allowed to get treated for cramps. In other words it's weak to get treated for something that can be easily prevented by superior conditoning.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 11:02 AM
ok.That's what I thougth you meant.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 11:07 AM
All I said was if I was in charge players wouldn't be allowed to get treated for cramps. In other words it's weak to get treated for something that can be easily prevented by superior conditoning.

thanks to gods you are not in charge of :rolleyes: Toooough man :)

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:08 AM
thanks to gods you are not in charge of :rolleyes: Toooough man :)

You're kidding that isn't tough at all.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 11:10 AM
and there is no god

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 11:11 AM
You're kidding that isn't tough at all.

Man ,you start living up to your name...

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:12 AM
Dzieki Riley.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Well I have some other ideas, that might need some autocratic methods to get them through, but they are too logical and wouldn't work.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Ohhh I didn't mean to offend both of you. Of course I was just kidding ;)

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 11:14 AM
Dzieki Riley.

no problem.There's also no Santa.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 11:14 AM
Well I have some other ideas, that might need some autocratic methods to get them through, but they are too logical and wouldn't work.

what ideas?

iliketennis
02-04-2005, 11:16 AM
My connection is too slow. I think it should be in here http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_6439_original.PDF

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:17 AM
what ideas?

-The only 2 ones that I have would be shortening the season.
- Having the TMC rotate venue to each continent annually and vary the surfaces they are played on as over the time it wouldn't continously advantage particular types of players.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 11:21 AM
no problem.There's also no Santa.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
You've spoiled my childhood....

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:22 AM
Yes, and if there was a Santa he never took an injury time out if his reindeer weren't doing their job.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 11:23 AM
-The only 2 ones that I have would be shortening the season.


Nice idea! But this will decrease revenues... Am I right? :confused:

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 11:24 AM
-The only 2 ones that I have would be shortening the season.
- Having the TMC rotate venue to each continent annually and vary the surfaces they are played on as over the time it wouldn't continously advantage particular types of players.

As much as dirtballers are disadvantaged on hardcourts or indoor carpet, nothing justifies 3 losses (each) to 2 different top-10 players (at TMC) that happen to come from the same country.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:26 AM
As much as dirtballers are disadvantaged on hardcourts or indoor carpet, nothing justifies 3 losses (each) to 2 different top-10 players (at TMC) that happen to come from the same country.

I am not quite sure what you mean by the last part of the sentence.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:28 AM
Nice idea! But this will decrease revenues... Am I right? :confused:

Not necessarily, it's quantity over quality at the moment. There isn't a long enough break at the end of the season, there are players getting injured a lot, part of is their own fault in the manner that they maybe tennis fit, but in reality are not that fit.

The thing is there should be a clear transition of surfaces like go with Rebound Ace, then to clay, after that grass, hardcourts and indoors. There wouldn't be an overlap of the surfaces either.

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 11:32 AM
What I mean is that while playing on fast courts benefits players like Duckboy or Federer, clay court specialists can't get away with disgraceful displays such as last year's TMC just because they are stuck with their narrow niche.
Every decent player should be able to play decent tennis on hardcourts: Muster did that, Guga did that, Coria is definitely capable of doing that, Gaudio probably isn't- no offense.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 11:33 AM
-The only 2 ones that I have would be shortening the season.
- Having the TMC rotate venue to each continent annually and vary the surfaces they are played on as over the time it wouldn't continously advantage particular types of players.

I agree with your 2nd idea. The first I'm not so sure. Shortening iot by how much?

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:35 AM
It has been going on for years Rogiman and it's not a recent thing, it happened during Wilander's time and this was a guy who could play anything, but at the end of season championship he was never a chance of winning it, when it was played on very fast surfaces.

Gaudio is far from the issue and if you want disgraceful then go back to Berasategui in 94, but that wasn't a court, that was an ice rink that they were playing on. I mean if Chang is beating someone 6-1 6-0 indoors on a fast surface something is going on.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:38 AM
I agree with your 2nd idea. The first I'm not so sure. Shortening iot by how much?

I have it written down somewhere. I think the theory goes start in Feb, play a TMS before the Aus Open in the 2nd week of the year, then start the Aus Open in the 1st week of March, then after 6 weeks on the hard stuff, then go to South America and start the clay season there, then back to Europe and as much as I love clay it would end at RG, though the dates would be pushed back a bit and so on. In total the season would be 39 weeks in number, but in reality 37 for most players as they won't play the DC final or the TMC.

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 11:42 AM
It has been going on for years Rogiman and it's not a recent thing, it happened during Wilander's time and this was a guy who could play anything, but at the end of season championship he was never a chance of winning it, when it was played on very fast surfaces.

Gaudio is far from the issue and if you want disgraceful then go back to Berasategui in 94, but that wasn't a court, that was an ice rink that they were playing on. I mean if Chang is beating someone 6-1 6-0 indoors on a fast surface something is going on.

I'm not saying they should be playing on grass, but I think indoor hardcourt would definitely suit everyone, as Corretja, Moya, Guga and Ferrero have already shown at the YEC.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:45 AM
I'm not saying they should be playing on grass, but I think indoor hardcourt would definitely suit everyone, as Corretja, Moya, Guga and Ferrero have already shown at the YEC.

I actually wouldn't have a problem if it was played on grass. For a start they would know a year in advance when and where it would be played. Example if it was played in Australia in November that could be easily held on grass outside and when it went to South America, then it could be played on clay and so on.

Indoor hardcourt in theory suits everyone but actually Corretja and Guga are the exceptions to this at TMC. Look over the years since the thing started in the 70s actually Borg, Corretja and Guga are the exceptions.

It still does favour too many of the same types of players consistently, whereas it should be shared around venue and surface wise.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 11:55 AM
I have it written down somewhere. I think the theory goes start in Feb, play a TMS before the Aus Open in the 2nd week of the year, then start the Aus Open in the 1st week of March, then after 6 weeks on the hard stuff, then go to South America and start the clay season there, then back to Europe and as much as I love clay it would end at RG, though the dates would be pushed back a bit and so on. In total the season would be 39 weeks in number, but in reality 37 for most players as they won't play the DC final or the TMC.

I think every player will be for shortening the season. Cauz most of them are displeased by the short breake at the end of year.
The problem is that there is so much tournaments. We can't just ban some of them....
That's why there is a kind of conflict btw ATP and players :confused:

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 11:58 AM
There has to be tough decisions made and that's the thing people have to realise whether they like or not. One thing is the indoor season at the start of the year doesn't need to be around, they can put these events after the US Open.

The ATP is the Players voice, but they need to sit down with the ITF as well, but it doesn't help when they as an organisation are not going in the same direction. With anything there is a breaking point and this is no different.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 12:01 PM
The ATP is the Players voice, but they need to sit down with the ITF as well, but it doesn't help when they as an organisation are not going in the same direction. With anything there is a breaking point and this is no different.

Agree :)

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 12:06 PM
I have it written down somewhere. I think the theory goes start in Feb, play a TMS before the Aus Open in the 2nd week of the year, then start the Aus Open in the 1st week of March, then after 6 weeks on the hard stuff, then go to South America and start the clay season there, then back to Europe and as much as I love clay it would end at RG, though the dates would be pushed back a bit and so on. In total the season would be 39 weeks in number, but in reality 37 for most players as they won't play the DC final or the TMC.

won't be happening anytiem soon. Do you want a TMS on grass as well?

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:07 PM
won't be happening anytiem soon. Do you want a TMS on grass as well?

I am not delusional at all and totally understand this. That is what happen when you live in a place that is dark for 6 months, have time to think about things and initially I said it won't happen soon as it's too practical.

A TMS on grass at the expense of a hardcourt one, then that would be fine by me.

Experimentee
02-04-2005, 12:08 PM
And then we reach the point where we have to judge if the player is really injured or just acting. Tough call to make. Of course Coria is faking...

Back on the topic there are many cases where the player obviously is not injured both before and after the timeout, and it is at a crucial point in the match. In that context I would call it gamesmanship. And it should not be taken just because a player is tight or not playing well or tired or hot. Its their own fault that they arent fit enough and in that case they should continue. In the AO final I was strongly going for Safin but I dont like what he did, and I didnt like what Hewitt did either. There was nothing really physically wrong with either.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Exp, we agree again.

The off topic stuff was actually quite intelligent for once from all concerned.

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 12:14 PM
Back on the topic there are many cases where the player obviously is not injured both before and after the timeout, and it is at a crucial point in the match. In that context I would call it gamesmanship. And it should not be taken just because a player is tight or not playing well or tired or hot. Its their own fault that they arent fit enough and in that case they should continue. In the AO final I was strongly going for Safin but I dont like what he did, and I didnt like what Hewitt did either. There was nothing really physically wrong with either.

I can't think of any player today fitter than either Hewitt or Safin, and we all know how demanding surface and condition-wise the Aussie Open is, so if those two felt the necessity to take a break you should either believe them or soften the regulations.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:14 PM
That's the thing as well physical conditioning is a huge part of the game and should be rewarded if the player looks after himself off the court, and makes sure that they get the right balance of electrolytes and water that they don't cramp up and some player just because he wants a break cause the match is tough for a non-existant injury that is very weak.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:16 PM
I can't think of any player today fitter than either Hewitt or Safin, and we all know how demanding surface and condition-wise the Aussie Open is, so if those two felt the necessity to take a break you should either believe them or soften the regulations.

Dominik Hrbaty fittest guy on the tour easily at the moment. Cañas is another one in that class and Schuettler is a guy who doesn't lose matches because a lack of fitness.

No way softening the already piss poor regulations as they are now.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:17 PM
that's why we need to make the distinction between gamesmanship and flat out cheating. lots of players can be accused of the former. identifying the latter is a bit more tricky except for blatant infractions like being coached during a match.

Coaching happens all the time in matches, even more so than the injury timeouts and hardly ever gets policed properly.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 12:17 PM
Back on the topic there are many cases where the player obviously is not injured both before and after the timeout, and it is at a crucial point in the match. In that context I would call it gamesmanship. And it should not be taken just because a player is tight or not playing well or tired or hot. Its their own fault that they arent fit enough and in that case they should continue. In the AO final I was strongly going for Safin but I dont like what he did, and I didnt like what Hewitt did either. There was nothing really physically wrong with either.

both players took that timeout during a break

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:21 PM
both players took that timeout during a break

It's as bad as each other, they both weren't really injured and therefore didn't need the break.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 12:23 PM
I am not delusional at all and totally understand this. That is what happen when you live in a place that is dark for 6 months, have time to think about things and initially I said it won't happen soon as it's too practical.

A TMS on grass at the expense of a hardcourt one, then that would be fine by me.

I would get rid of one clay MS...2 would be enough.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 12:26 PM
There has to be tough decisions made and that's the thing people have to realise whether they like or not. One thing is the indoor season at the start of the year doesn't need to be around, they can put these events after the US Open.


Nothing would make my day more than getting rid of the indoor season that we have now.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:27 PM
I would get rid of one clay MS...2 would be enough.

It's all about balance and the 3 clay events have been around a lot longer than any of the others MS events, that's a non-negotiable those 3 need to stay.

As for the indoor season Rotterdam is a traditional and high quality event which would stay but be played after the US Open.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 12:41 PM
It's as bad as each other, they both weren't really injured and therefore didn't need the break.

Safin had strong muscle reductions. He needed that massage.
And let's take as a case Safin-Ancic mach. When Marat twisted his ankle. After professional help he was able to play again.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 12:45 PM
I like Safin a lot, but don't make excuses for him, a massage is not a reason to take a time out.

Foxy Smile
02-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Look at the problem from another point. During these time-outs both of players have a rest. So after breake they can show us better tennis ;)

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 01:19 PM
It's all about balance and the 3 clay events have been around a lot longer than any of the others MS events, that's a non-negotiable those 3 need to stay.

As for the indoor season Rotterdam is a traditional and high quality event which would stay but be played after the US Open.

I don't like back to back clay court MSs. So which one would you get rid of? Cinci?

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:20 PM
Look at the problem from another point. During these time-outs both of players have a rest. So after breake they can show us better tennis ;)

I don't give a monkeys, he could have played ugly tennis and won the final and it's still a win. It's not ski jumping where you get style points.

It's crap I don't like it when players I do like use it for the wrong reasons and vice-versa.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:22 PM
I don't like back to back clay court MSs. So which one would you get rid of? Cinci?

Adjust the calendar and have a 2 week break between the TMS events. I am not sure which one, but one of the hardcourt ones would go for sure.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 01:31 PM
ok,so you have 3 MSs on clay you want to have 2 weeks break in between,that's 7 weeks already,plus you want to satr clay season with South America,that's at l;east 2 additional weeks,then probably one week in between last MS and FO which is 12 weeks of clay season. 3 months...with AO in Mach and one of teh MS in March,caly season would satrt in April and last until July...then you'll have grass and Wimbledon,so HCs would satrt in August and last for how long. IMO clay season liek that is too long.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:33 PM
I'll find the thread somewhere where I had it written down and I'll copy it.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 01:39 PM
ok

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:43 PM
ok

Last derailment of this thread and then back to the subject. I worked it out as 17/18 weeks on Hard/Indoor Hard, 12 on clay and 5 on grass.

Anyway what is your view on the Barcelona Robredo time out incident in the 2004 final when serving for the match?

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 01:52 PM
Last derailment of this thread and then back to the subject. I worked it out as 17/18 weeks on Hard/Indoor Hard, 12 on clay and 5 on grass.

Anyway what is your view on the Barcelona Robredo time out incident in the 2004 final when serving for the match?

I find it funny that Gaudio once again managed to choke in a match. As I said before when teh timeout is in between games then I don't usually say a thing. When it's in between points then it gets tricky. I'm not amused then, but I'm far from crying about it for long. Whaty do you think about Marat taking timeouts for blisters at FO?

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 01:54 PM
I find it funny that Gaudio once again managed to choke in a match. As I said before when teh timeout is in between games then I don't usually say a thing. When it's in between points then it gets tricky. I'm not amused then, but I'm far from crying about it for long. Whaty do you think about Marat taking timeouts for blisters at FO?

Well I am not sure this time Gaudio choked, though he could write volumes about this, it doesn't matter he won the one that counted. :)

So you do think the timing of it was ordinary then? No, Marat shouldn't have got treated for blisters eiter.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 01:58 PM
No,the timing was not right. And it clearly says 'I WANT TO WIN IT SO BAD' so he chose this unfortunate option,but I won't lose sleep because of that. And I didn't see that match so I'm in no position to judge really.

buzzy
02-04-2005, 02:20 PM
All of these random injury timeouts, bathroom breaks, etc. are essentially impossible to monitor as to whether they are actually necessary or some sort of gamemanship play or just stealing an extra rest time or whatever type of cheating you may want to call it. Instead they should just change the rules to have automatic breaks at certain points like the halftime breaks that every other sport has. Even baseball has a 7th inning stretch and those guys don't need any rest since they get a break every inning when their team is at bat.

Why not just say a best of 3 set match gets a break after the 2nd set. A best of 5 gets 2 breaks - after the 2nd and then again after the 4th if it goes to 5. Any other timeout requested will garner an automatic penalty of some sort even though it will be granted.
Unless someone is really hurting, they will not be inclined to give away penalty points and will wait for the official rest period to take care of their business. Massages, trainer consultations, clothing changes, bathroom breaks, etc can be done by both players at the same time during the scheduled period.

How would this kill the sport? Face it, even the fans would appreciate some breaks during those 3 and 4 hour matches for their own refreshment and/or bathroom stops.

Okay...problem solved...no more cheating! :angel:

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 02:28 PM
Why change the rules to allow timeouts? In other words Americanise the sport, when it's a global sport? Buzzy as sad as it is, there'll always be gamesmanship and cheating no matter how good the rule.

That fan anaolgy is crap. If they don't like a match or want a break from it to stretch themselves, get food or the like then they can take one and aren't obligated to stay there the whole time.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:38 PM
I am sick of players abusing the rules in this case and this would stop the tactical timeout, then again they wouldn't get treatment for cramp that is soft getting treatment for loss of physical conditioning.

Not nearly as sick as I am of people whining about players who take advantage of the rules :)

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 02:40 PM
Not nearly as sick as I am of people whining about players who take advantage of the rules :)

At least I made an attempt to answer this question honestly. Then again I don't excuse players I like for doing it.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:40 PM
As much as dirtballers are disadvantaged on hardcourts or indoor carpet, nothing justifies 3 losses (each) to 2 different top-10 players (at TMC) that happen to come from the same country.

Um, wtf? Coria and Gaudio may come from the same country, but their circumstances were very different. Coria hadn't played in months. Did anybody expect him to win a match? I think that pretty much "justifies" his losses (especially seeing as he's beaten both Henman and Safin on hardcourt before). Gaudio.... I'm not touching that one :devil:

Neely
02-04-2005, 02:41 PM
And let's take as a case Safin-Ancic mach. When Marat twisted his ankle. After professional help he was able to play again.
completely right, I agree with you!

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:42 PM
What I mean is that while playing on fast courts benefits players like Duckboy or Federer, clay court specialists can't get away with disgraceful displays such as last year's TMC just because they are stuck with their narrow niche.
Every decent player should be able to play decent tennis on hardcourts: Muster did that, Guga did that, Coria is definitely capable of doing that, Gaudio probably isn't- no offense.

Coria is capable of it, but not after a layoff of serveral months. That was his problem - easily justifiable, like I said above. Now, we can argue whether or not he should have played, but that's another topic :p

Gonzo Hates Me!
02-04-2005, 02:42 PM
I haven't posted in forever so I am just now seeing this. And it's too late to add to an 8-page thread, but swell thread Chloe. Doublestandards are annoying. Even though life is doublestandards, but still, they are annoying

It's already been well established by the objective experts on this board that it's a cheat everytime that Coria does it, even when he follows it up with several months off tour. It's also been established that when Hewitt and Safin do it, it doesn't count, and is thus totally legit.

So I was hoping that for my own benefit, the armchair experts here at MTF could break it down for me and properly define when exactly an injury timeout becomes a "cheat". I would like to know so that I can spot one the second that a player calls it on TV and post a thread immediately, calling them on their cheating ways.

Thanks!

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 02:43 PM
completely right, I agree with you!

Wouldn't only a desperate fool try and fake a twisted ankle? If they are going to pull up lame then it would be a groin or a hamstring.

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 02:44 PM
Um, wtf? Coria and Gaudio may come from the same country, but their circumstances were very different. Coria hadn't played in months. Did anybody expect him to win a match? I think that pretty much "justifies" his losses (especially seeing as he's beaten both Henman and Safin on hardcourt before). Gaudio.... I'm not touching that one :devil:

Fair enough, then Coria should handle indoor-hardcourt pretty well for the next few decades at TMC.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:44 PM
Back on the topic there are many cases where the player obviously is not injured both before and after the timeout, and it is at a crucial point in the match. In that context I would call it gamesmanship. And it should not be taken just because a player is tight or not playing well or tired or hot. Its their own fault that they arent fit enough and in that case they should continue. In the AO final I was strongly going for Safin but I dont like what he did, and I didnt like what Hewitt did either. There was nothing really physically wrong with either.

Agreed... although it didn't really bother me that either of them took a timeout. Obivously I don't know for sure, but it sure appeared that they were just tactical timeouts :p

However, some people will make excuses for them or conveniently overlook them anyways. The same people who criticized Coria for his timeout against Nalbandian, despite the fact that he won't be playing now for a bit.

Neely
02-04-2005, 02:45 PM
Wouldn't only a desperate fool try and fake a twisted ankle? If they are going to pull up lame then it would be a groin or a hamstring.
Not sure what you are trying to say by that?! :confused: I just said that I agree with that and that there are plenty of good reasons that the injury timeout rule should stay and that people shouldn't only see the "abuse" of it. But then again, I already said that IMO the "abuse" of it is difficult to prove and that it's not our job to judge what's going on with the player's bodies.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:45 PM
At least I made an attempt to answer this question honestly. Then again I don't excuse players I like for doing it.

I didn't mean the whining in this thread... I asked for it in this thread. I mean everywhere else on this board :p

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:46 PM
Fair enough, then Coria should handle indoor-hardcourt pretty well for the next few decades at TMC.
Coria will never be the best indoor player. He could certainly do better than this year, however.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:47 PM
I haven't posted in forever so I am just now seeing this. And it's too late to add to an 8-page thread, but swell thread Chloe. Doublestandards are annoying. Even though life is doublestandards, but still, they are annoying

Mrs Guga :hearts:

Let's talk about how Coria is evil and Marat was actually desparately injured. We need to get this thread back on track.

Rogiman
02-04-2005, 02:48 PM
Becca, I like it when you all of a sudden appear, posting 100 posts at once (adding :p to every one of them) and then disappear back to the darkness...

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:49 PM
One more thing on Coria and the TMC - even though I say that he will do better in the future, it would be unrealistic of me to expect him to pull a "Guga", or even a JCF. He hasn't had the results on hardcourts that either of those two had, although he did come awfully close in Miami.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 02:49 PM
Becca, I like it when you all of a sudden appear, posting 100 posts at once (adding :p to every one of them) and then disappear back to the darkness...
:devil:

I am leaving in about 10 minutes to catch the bus :p

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 02:51 PM
I didn't mean the whining in this thread... I asked for it in this thread. I mean everywhere else on this board :p

Too bad the solution in our level of tennis would be deemed by the good people to be known as common assault to someone who tried faking injuries.

Usually will let someone go if they do it once, but when it starts happening more often then it gets scrutinised. Considering I have given it to Gaudio, Gonzalez and Safin for taking timeouts when they shouldn't have I think I have stayed consistent on this issue.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 02:54 PM
Not sure what you are trying to say by that?! :confused: I just said that I agree with that and that there are plenty of good reasons that the injury timeout rule should stay and that people shouldn't only see the "abuse" of it. But then again, I already said that IMO the "abuse" of it is difficult to prove and that it's not our job to judge what's going on with the player's bodies.

Basically what I am saying is that Safin did twist his ankle (no, it was not because of the surface) and that was legit and the timeout was justified, but to fake an ankle injury would be desperate is what I was saying, when there are so many other ways of seeing it.

You don't get it that the rule gets abused more and more as time goes on. I remember when Alberto Martin took a timeout for cramps in a tiebreaker against Hewitt the year he knocked him out of the Open. There was no way that was genuine and yes I was going for Martin.

Who said the injury timeout should go? There are certain things that shouldn't be treated as a timeout eg cramp, blisters, nervousness.

Neely
02-04-2005, 03:00 PM
Usually will let someone go if they do it once, but when it starts happening more often then it gets scrutinised. Considering I have given it to Gaudio, Gonzalez and Safin for taking timeouts when they shouldn't have I think I have stayed consistent on this issue.
Correct, and that's an important difference that I would like to credit! :) Have your opinion on something, but don't change and rotate it as needed because you like player A, but dislike player B.

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 03:09 PM
It happens everywhere Neely that's the thing. It's like football I love the game, but diving sucks and if a player from the team I support conned the ref to get a penalty that is crap as well.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 03:35 PM
Too bad the solution in our level of tennis would be deemed by the good people to be known as common assault to someone who tried faking injuries.

Usually will let someone go if they do it once, but when it starts happening more often then it gets scrutinised. Considering I have given it to Gaudio, Gonzalez and Safin for taking timeouts when they shouldn't have I think I have stayed consistent on this issue.

I never said that you hadn't :p

(caught bus! wooo! made it to "volunteer" - ie: do nothing)

Action Jackson
02-04-2005, 03:53 PM
I can't sleep and you are doing nothing Chloe I am so jealous.

PaulieM
02-04-2005, 05:24 PM
All of these random injury timeouts, bathroom breaks, etc. are essentially impossible to monitor as to whether they are actually necessary or some sort of gamemanship play or just stealing an extra rest time or whatever type of cheating you may want to call it. Instead they should just change the rules to have automatic breaks at certain points like the halftime breaks that every other sport has. Even baseball has a 7th inning stretch and those guys don't need any rest since they get a break every inning when their team is at bat.

Why not just say a best of 3 set match gets a break after the 2nd set. A best of 5 gets 2 breaks - after the 2nd and then again after the 4th if it goes to 5. Any other timeout requested will garner an automatic penalty of some sort even though it will be granted.
Unless someone is really hurting, they will not be inclined to give away penalty points and will wait for the official rest period to take care of their business. Massages, trainer consultations, clothing changes, bathroom breaks, etc can be done by both players at the same time during the scheduled period.

How would this kill the sport? Face it, even the fans would appreciate some breaks during those 3 and 4 hour matches for their own refreshment and/or bathroom stops.

Okay...problem solved...no more cheating! :angel:

this idea isn't that bad and i don't think it would be americanizing the sport. most people agree that the players need a break at some points and that when they get to take them needs to be more regulated. it would suck to wait if you really really needed to pee though, who knows how long it could be before the set ends :)

buzzy
02-04-2005, 06:05 PM
this idea isn't that bad and i don't think it would be americanizing the sport. most people agree that the players need a break at some points and that when they get to take them needs to be more regulated. it would suck to wait if you really really needed to pee though, who knows how long it could be before the set ends :)

Thank you :)

And I didn't understand GWH's "americanizing" the sport at all. Does he mean to say soccer teams and such in other countries don't take a break at halftime. I personally don't know, but just figured games that are played internationally would all use essentially the same rules. Someone will have to enlighten me about that. :confused:

And I wouldn't worry too much about someone's urgent need to pee being a problem. Considering that most of the time now they don't break at all, 2 sets shouldn't be that great of a strain for them to get through if they instituted a scheduled break period.

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 06:14 PM
I can't sleep and you are doing nothing Chloe I am so jealous.

It wasn't that great. I'm back from doing nothing. Yay! I might go buy groceries later.

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 06:17 PM
or take a nap you loser!

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 06:20 PM
I did that yesterday. Today I refuse to take a nap before 5pm. I should probably do my philosophy reading or something :(

Riley Finn
02-04-2005, 06:21 PM
or bash RPH for me...or shall I leave a 15 y/o confused kid alone?

Chloe le Bopper
02-04-2005, 06:31 PM
or bash RPH for me...or shall I leave a 15 y/o confused kid alone?
Don't leave him alone. He has to learn sometime, so why not now? I won't be joining you today, though. I've done enough RPH bashing ;)

Lee
02-04-2005, 06:58 PM
this idea isn't that bad and i don't think it would be americanizing the sport. most people agree that the players need a break at some points and that when they get to take them needs to be more regulated. it would suck to wait if you really really needed to pee though, who knows how long it could be before the set ends :)

As an adult, I can't understand why anyone needs a bathroom break in the middle of a set. Bathroom break should only happen between sets, not within a set. Of course, if someone has a medical condition that he/she cannot control, that's understandable. Even my 3rd grade son, their class learn to go to pee between activities in their class, not during or whenever they want to.

PaulieM
02-04-2005, 07:16 PM
hey who knows what the reason might be, nerves, a small bladder i don't really care. the main point was that having some sort of scheduled breaks during a match might be a good idea.

hola
02-04-2005, 07:41 PM
I think is is really difficult to say if the player take the injury time-out because he really feels bad, or is too nervous serving for the set/match or is really cheating. But there are just two sides of the coin: on the one side it is of course not nice towards the opponent, but if it helps, later no one will talk about this( ok, except it happens too often or on the MTF of course ;) ). The other side of the coin is, that tennis is not just smathing the ball with the whole power (otherwise Roddick would win everything, what don't happens like you can see), but a psyhological game too. It is about to show the opponet who is the master on the court, so that he will get unsure and loose the match. And if a player A takes injury time-out and the player B loose his rythm or whatever, it is his problem and not of the Player A. You must have strong nerves if you are a professional tennis palyer. For example Hewitt's Come'on's: have you saw him screaming too much "come'on" on his matches with Safin or Federer? NO. And that is not because he thinks, he can loose to them, but because he knows it wouldn't bring anything, you can't impress them with screaming, but you can succesfully do it with Blacke, Chela and many more. And he does it. Of course it is not nice, and the gamemanship get lose etc., but that is legal. Do you know how many psyhological tricks the chess players use? That is really dirty, the tennis players are angels in compare to them :)

MissMoJo
02-04-2005, 07:45 PM
palyer. For example Hewitt's Come'on's: have you saw him screaming too much "come'on" on his matches with Safin or Federer? NO.

They give him much reason to :)

Space Cowgirl
02-04-2005, 07:58 PM
So was Federer then bending the rules a bit in his match against Safin in Melbourne? He got an injury time out, didn't he? Or was his treatment done in the normal changeover time?

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:36 AM
No, it's probably okay when Federer does it. Regardless of the circumstances, we'll always assume that he was deathly injured and would have passed away within 5 seconds had he not called the trainer. But... it's not okay when Coria does it. Or Andy. I think that is a fair assessment of how the armchair experts would call it. Sadly, the very people I was poking fun at here haven't bothered to show up in this thread. How convenient.

I didn't see the Fed-Safin match, but seeing as Fed does not have a habit of calling the trainer, I wouldn't have thought twice about it

federer express
02-05-2005, 01:38 AM
No, it's probably okay when Federer does it. Regardless of the circumstances, we'll always assume that he was deathly injured and would have passed away within 5 seconds had he not called the trainer. But... it's not okay when Coria does it. Or Andy. I think that is a fair assessment of how the armchair experts would call it. Sadly, the very people I was poking fun at here haven't bothered to show up in this thread. How convenient.

I didn't see the Fed-Safin match, but seeing as Fed does not have a habit of calling the trainer, I wouldn't have thought twice about it

yup yup yup...and how is my favourite poster? :)

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:41 AM
Bored. Nobody wanted to go out tonight, so I get to stay in and read Nicomachaen Ethics. And this isn't even a required course. Why do I torture myself so? There is a midterm on Tuesday and I want a 90, damnit!

Yourself?

federer express
02-05-2005, 01:43 AM
Bored. Nobody wanted to go out tonight, so I get to stay in and read Nicomachaen Ethics. And this isn't even a required course. Why do I torture myself so? There is a midterm on Tuesday and I want a 90, damnit!

Yourself?

LOL...yeah just started my new job...am a psychiatrist actually....so fun fun fun...got someone who thinks he is the second coming...sounds like georgewhitler to me!! :)

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:46 AM
LOL...yeah just started my new job...am a psychiatrist actually....so fun fun fun...got someone who thinks he is the second coming...sounds like georgewhitler to me!! :)
I can assure you that while GWH may think he's many things, the second coming is not one of them.

What kind of psychiatry do you do?

federer express
02-05-2005, 01:48 AM
I can assure you that while GWH may think he's many things, the second coming is not one of them.

What kind of psychiatry do you do?

general adult right now....than have to do some old age psych for 6 months :( but wanna specialise in child psych eventually....(that or forensic)

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:49 AM
general adult right now....than have to do some old age psych for 6 months :( but wanna specialise in child psych eventually....(that or forensic)
What exactly would a forensic psychiatrist do? I am going to apply to some forensic psychology programs, but I'm interested in research and experimental, not clinical. Oh, and I probably won't get it. So I'll try law school instead. (believe it or not, it's easier to get in there).

I saw a child psychiatrist when I was younger... nice lady :p

federer express
02-05-2005, 01:53 AM
What exactly would a forensic psychiatrist do? I am going to apply to some forensic psychology programs, but I'm interested in research and experimental, not clinical. Oh, and I probably won't get it. So I'll try law school instead. (believe it or not, it's easier to get in there).

I saw a child psychiatrist when I was younger... nice lady :p

child psychiatrists have to be pretty cool i think...to be good anyway. depends on who u prefer talking to...i like the honesty of younger ppl and think the potential for improvement is much greater in them. this is definitely my first choice. sadly forensic psych probably not as cool as it sounds and think it could be quite depressing, dealing with criminals...with varying degrees of mental illness. Some very ill, some just criminals who know its smart to claim mental illness. Quite a few prison visits....Some very interesting literature in forensic psych though!!

federer express
02-05-2005, 01:56 AM
Oh, and I probably won't get it. So I'll try law school instead. (believe it or not, it's easier to get in there).


Go for what u will enjoy. Not much worse than hating your job

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:58 AM
child psychiatrists have to be pretty cool i think...to be good anyway. depends on who u prefer talking to...i like the honesty of younger ppl and think the potential for improvement is much greater in them. this is definitely my first choice. sadly forensic psych probably not as cool as it sounds and think it could be quite depressing, dealing with criminals...with varying degrees of mental illness. Some very ill, some just criminals who know its smart to claim mental illness. Some very interesting literature in fornsic psych though

Hmmm, yeah, I can imagine that councelling the sickest of the sick criminals might not be all it's cracked up to be. However, that is why I'm not interested in clinical blah. The experimental stuff is far more interesting to me. I don't know what the difference between a clinical forensic psychologist and a forensic psychiatrist would be, jod descrption wise. Either than the fact that psychologists can't give out drugs in this country... yet.

A good child psychiatrist needs to be able to communicate well with children, to know how to speak to them, etc. obviously... but that is easier said than done. All the training in the world can't make you an expert at actually carrying it all out.

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 01:59 AM
Go for what u will enjoy. Not much worse than hating your job
If I can't study humans behavior in the legal system, I might as well study the legal system :p

federer express
02-05-2005, 02:01 AM
Hmmm, yeah, I can imagine that councelling the sickest of the sick criminals might not be all it's cracked up to be. However, that is why I'm not interested in clinical blah. The experimental stuff is far more interesting to me. I don't know what the difference between a clinical forensic psychologist and a forensic psychiatrist would be, jod descrption wise. Either than the fact that psychologists can't give out drugs in this country... yet.

A good child psychiatrist needs to be able to communicate well with children, to know how to speak to them, etc. obviously... but that is easier said than done. All the training in the world can't make you an expert at actually carrying it all out.

true true true...some ppl can chat and relate to others well, some cant. I communicate better in person than i do on here you'll be pleased to hear. training can help but u gotta have some ability to begin with... like playing tennis or doing anything else i guess

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 02:03 AM
true true true...some ppl can chat and relate to others well, some cant. I communicate better in person than i do on here you'll be pleased to hear. training can help but u gotta have some ability to begin with... like playing tennis or doing anything else i guess
I communicate better in written than in spoken language, unfortunately. Hence my wanting to do research, not clinical practice.

federer express
02-05-2005, 02:05 AM
I communicate better in written than in spoken language, unfortunately. Hence my wanting to do research, not clinical practice.

yeah i did research for a year at med school but didn't like it...prefer spoken language :)

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 02:08 AM
I realized some time during third year that I had a knack for dealing with vast amounts of material and getting something useful out of them. You would think that everybody at this level should be able to do that with some efficiency, but alas, many still cringe at the thought of writing a paper...

federer express
02-05-2005, 02:12 AM
I realized some time during third year that I had a knack for dealing with vast amounts of material and getting something useful out of them. You would think that everybody at this level should be able to do that with some efficiency, but alas, many still cringe at the thought of writing a paper...

everyone is different...i'm not a huge fan of studying loads or producing a thesis...prefer to learn by experience and by listening to lecturers etc rather than sitting and reading text. if i hear something once i can remember it forever, but i need to read something 100 times. and i can write something down and forget it straight away too. :( hey this has nothin to do with your thread! :p

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 02:14 AM
everyone is different...i'm not a huge fan of studying loads or producing a thesis...prefer to learn by experience and by listening to lecturers etc rather than sitting and reading text. if i hear something once i can remember it forever, but i need to read something 100 times. and i can write something down and forget it straight away too. :( hey this has nothin to do with your thread! :p
I tend to be an auditory learner myself. I save myself hours of studying if I go to lectures. But that doesn't mean I don't write a mean paper. I wrote a perfect one third year :yeah: (reading it over a year later... it really wasn't "perfect". But whatever.) This year too, actually, but that was just a short "thought paper" and doesn't count ;)

Much of this thread is a bit off topic :devil:

federer express
02-05-2005, 02:16 AM
so u forgiven this clay hating infidel? lol

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 02:18 AM
Yes. I try not to hold grudges. I make the occasional exception, but life is too short to hold grudges. Especially on the internet ;)

Besides... the majority of differences I have had with people resulted because I bitched them out about something :devil:

I'm going to the store to buy apple juice. I'll be back :p

federer express
02-05-2005, 02:20 AM
cool cool....anyway my time on this forum is coming to an end i think so u wont have to listen to clay bashing from me in the future :aparty:

Chloe le Bopper
02-05-2005, 04:18 AM
No, I"ll just have to listen to it from everybody else. Why are you "retiring"? Too much work, or are you not enjoying it anymore?

Action Jackson
02-05-2005, 04:47 AM
Thank you :)

And I didn't understand GWH's "americanizing" the sport at all. Does he mean to say soccer teams and such in other countries don't take a break at halftime. I personally don't know, but just figured games that are played internationally would all use essentially the same rules. Someone will have to enlighten me about that. :confused:


Halftime in football is halftime and that's it. Tennis doesn't need organised breaks at all, it's not a team sport as you well aware, actually I think coaching is a bigger problem. It's illegal, but everyone does it, it's funny to see the reaction of the players when they get a warning.

Riley Finn
02-05-2005, 01:53 PM
how about that new tennis schedule list? :)

Action Jackson
04-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Change Coria to Djokovic in the original post.