Could Andre have defeated Marat in AO? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Could Andre have defeated Marat in AO?

robinhood
02-01-2005, 05:25 PM
I just read this nice little article on Andre.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/other_sports/10785805.htm?1c

Good for him for continuing on this year despite the AO disappointment.
But in the article, the San Jose tournament consultant was quoted as saying, "if somehow [Andre] had ended up playing Safin instead of Federer, I think he would have won that match."

I would've hoped so myself, but really?? :confused:

Leena
02-01-2005, 05:29 PM
Andre didn't in 2004... so, yeah.

robinhood
02-01-2005, 05:35 PM
Andre didn't in 2004... so, yeah.

You mean Andre could have or couldn't have in 2005?

Neely
02-01-2005, 05:39 PM
and the answer is... no, Andre would most likely not have defeated Marat

MisterQ
02-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Serving would be a key factor, imo, as it has been in their past encounters. Marat was serving out of a tree in his best matches this year (and in the semi against Andre last year). For Andre to be competitive, he would have to have a great serving day, much better than his serving was against Federer, for example --- and then he would have a chance. Once they get into rallies, they are fairly even (though Marat's backhand down the line can be really dangerous). Have to favor Marat.

RonE
02-01-2005, 05:56 PM
I think Marat would have beaten him- in last year's match Marat was very in and out, this year he was a lot more focused and match sharp so yes, I believe if he beat Agassi in his state of mind last year he definitely could have handled him this year, a lot easier than last year even.

T-T
02-01-2005, 05:58 PM
Hell, if Agassi hadn't choked he would have defeated Federer. His tactic of hammering Federer's backhand proved quite effective. But his overall play was so untypically error-prone that day, so fragile. I think Andre was way too nervous that day.

Could he have beaten Safin? I don't see why not...

robinhood
02-01-2005, 05:59 PM
Had they met in AO quarters or in any stage, I would've given the edge to Marat, too. And I think Marat beat Andre at least twice last year
in AO and Madrid Masters semis.
But no question, Andre still has the upper hand on Hewitt and Roddick.

Leena
02-01-2005, 06:00 PM
I meant that Andre probably wouldn't have considering Andre lost to him last year. But, who knows? That's why they play the matches. The stupid part is coming right out and saying that Andre would have beat Marat... that's just silliness. Sorry for the confusion. :p

elizabeth_c
02-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Hell, if Agassi hadn't choked he would have defeated Federer. His tactic of hammering Federer's backhand proved quite effective. But his overall play was so untypically error-prone that day, so fragile. I think Andre was way too nervous that day.

Could he have beaten Safin? I don't see why not...really?????you think agassi could have beated feddy??? i am not sure about that.. i always root for andre over anyone....he usually is not prone to nerves...but i DO believe he could have beated marat...

jtipson
02-01-2005, 06:02 PM
I think that writer (or Barry MacKay) had a big bout of wishful thinking there. He obviously forgot the result from the previous year. It would have been more believable if he'd inserted the name of one of the other top four players instead of Safin.

robinhood
02-01-2005, 06:11 PM
It would have been more believable if he'd inserted the name of one of the other top four players instead of Safin.

Federer included?

jtipson
02-01-2005, 06:12 PM
No, "Federer rather than Federer" wouldn't have made sense ;) I meant that he would have had a legit shot against Roddick or Hewitt. He might not have won, but he may have made some inroads.

robinhood
02-01-2005, 06:22 PM
I think Andre could've defeated Hewitt or Roddick. As Mary Carillo said during the match vs. Fed, Andre's got to raise his ranking enough so that he wouldn't have to play Fed (or Safin, too) in the quarters.

jtipson
02-01-2005, 06:27 PM
He's beaten them over 3 sets last summer, I think it might be harder over 5, but still possible. He was rather unfortunate to get Federer in the last two GS quarter-finals, but getting his ranking up into the top four will be pretty tough; Safin at fourth is already 1400 points ahead of Agassi. Let's see how the hardcourt TMS go.

RonE
02-01-2005, 06:29 PM
...Andre's got to raise his ranking enough so that he wouldn't have to play Fed (or Safin, too) in the quarters.

Well, it is a bit of a cause and effect thing- if Andre would have beaten Roger and Marat his ranking would not be where it is now ;)

robinhood
02-01-2005, 06:39 PM
He's beaten them over 3 sets last summer, I think it might be harder over 5, but still possible. He was rather unfortunate to get Federer in the last two GS quarter-finals, but getting his ranking up into the top four will be pretty tough; Safin at fourth is already 1400 points ahead of Agassi. Let's see how the hardcourt TMS go.

Yes. But the good news is that Andre doesn't have that many points to defend, if I understand correctly. He reached the semis in San Jose and Indian Wells last year and then what? He totally bombed during the clay court season, and until he won the Cincy Masters, he was almost written out yet again. So hopefully he will do better this year to get into, maybe not top 4, but at least 5 or 6.

robinhood
02-01-2005, 06:42 PM
Well, it is a bit of a cause and effect thing- if Andre would have beaten Roger and Marat his ranking would not be where it is now ;)

True.... hopefully he'll manage to have more consistant results in smaller tournaments than he did last year.

jtipson
02-01-2005, 07:05 PM
Yes. But the good news is that Andre doesn't have that many points to defend, if I understand correctly. He reached the semis in San Jose and Indian Wells last year and then what? He totally bombed during the clay court season, and until he won the Cincy Masters, he was almost written out yet again. So hopefully he will do better this year to get into, maybe not top 4, but at least 5 or 6.

You're right, Agassi doesn't have much to defend, but neither does Safin, until the autumn. Unfortunately if Andre is only 5th or 6th it won't help his seeding prospects, because 1-4 draw 5-8 randomly. Currently he's 10th, so a lot of work to do.

Adman
02-01-2005, 07:15 PM
With the win at AO I think that will have given Marat a bit of extra fuel to be the champion of another tournament or even a Grand Slam, when it come to Andre I think it have to depend on his serve and how he is feeling to whetere he would be Marat or not.

Action Jackson
02-02-2005, 02:09 AM
What if, buts and maybes account for nothing in this case. They didn't play in the tournament, Agassi wasn't good enough to make the final, so no case there.

Billabong
02-02-2005, 02:15 AM
Honestly I think Marat would have won!

AgassiFan
02-02-2005, 06:11 AM
I meant that Andre probably wouldn't have considering Andre lost to him last year. But, who knows? That's why they play the matches. The stupid part is coming right out and saying that Andre would have beat Marat... that's just silliness. Sorry for the confusion. :p

The only reason Andre lost to Marat in 2004 AO is because he squandred gollden chances in first 2 sets which he ended up losing 6-7, 6-7. Had he won at least one of those tie-breakers, he would have blown Marat off the court in 3rd and 4th sets - which he did anyway.

As for 2005 AO, we'll never know.

select
02-02-2005, 06:18 AM
If Andre was on Hewitt's side of the draw, I'm pretty certain he would have taken home the gold, no sweat.

Action Jackson
02-02-2005, 06:30 AM
What if he played Marat instead of Roger.
Maybe if he played Marat he might have won.
But he didn't do either.

Agassi is not winning another Slam unless he has easy draws or plays Roddick in the final.

bad gambler
02-02-2005, 06:35 AM
If Andre was on Hewitt's side of the draw, I'm pretty certain he would have taken home the gold, no sweat.


hope the rest of your posts are better than your first one

J. Corwin
02-02-2005, 06:48 AM
I think Marat has too much power on his groundstrokes for Andre to beat him. ;) If Marat serves like he did against Fed, no chance.;)

robinhood
02-02-2005, 06:58 AM
You're right, Agassi doesn't have much to defend, but neither does Safin, until the autumn. Unfortunately if Andre is only 5th or 6th it won't help his seeding prospects, because 1-4 draw 5-8 randomly. Currently he's 10th, so a lot of work to do.

Oh, right... I think the top 3 are pretty much set right now: Fed, Safin, and Hewitt. Given Roddick's recent results, I think #4 spot could be up for grabs among many players if he doesn't perform better. Does Andre have the capability to sneak in and rise to #4? :confused:

Well, anything's possible, but still it seems like a long shot....
:sad:

Action Jackson
02-02-2005, 07:02 AM
Agassi should expect unless he is prepared to play a full schedule he won't get be backing into the top 3 unless he wins Slams and a multitude of TMS events. Then again he only cares about the majors these days.

AgassiFan
02-02-2005, 11:00 AM
Then again he only cares about the majors these days.

As do I.

Sure, Masters events can be quite fun, but ultimately, they're just preparation for the big 4.

Agassi is not winning shit serving at 50-60% - not anymore. 75% is the magic number. Otherwise, he'll be relegated to QF and SF exits. We'll see.

Riley Finn
02-02-2005, 11:10 AM
The only reason Andre lost to Marat in 2004 AO is because he squandred gollden chances in first 2 sets which he ended up losing 6-7, 6-7. Had he won at least one of those tie-breakers, he would have blown Marat off the court in 3rd and 4th sets - which he did anyway.

As for 2005 AO, we'll never know.

OH GOD. TELL ME YOU DIDN'T TRY TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF HERE. WAIT, YOU DID. THE ONLY REASON ANDRE DIDN'T GO UNDEFEATED LAST YEAR WAS BECAUSE HE SQUANDERED GOLDEN CHANCES IN HIS MATCHES.
OTHER THAN THAT HE WAS BLOWING OPPONENTS OFF THE COURT,ESPECIALLY THOSE SETS ENDING 7-5.

....cry me a river...cry me...cry me...

WyveN
02-02-2005, 11:37 AM
In my opinion this is Andres last year on tour, although there is a chance he will retire following next years AO as he has the best memories there.

Riley Finn
02-02-2005, 11:38 AM
he should have retired last year...I love him,but there won't be a fairy tale ending a la Sampras at USO or Graf at FO.

perrygreen
02-02-2005, 11:41 AM
If Andre was on Hewitt's side of the draw, I'm pretty certain he would have taken home the gold, no sweat.


:confused: Marat beat Andre twice last year with straight win in Madrid Masters.When Marat is determined to win, he is able to beat anybody in the world and he is most focused when facing lengends like Andre.

Experimentee
02-02-2005, 01:16 PM
I dont think so because Marat was playing his best tennis this AO and Andre didnt play his best in the QF, with a pretty low 1st serve % and a few more UE's at the wrong times. That sort of tennis probably wouldnt have been good enough to beat Marat. Although I dont doubt that he does have chances to beat Marat if they met in the future.

Experimentee
02-02-2005, 01:19 PM
However if Andre had been on Hewitt's half of the draw I think he would have made the final and probably won. Both Hewitt and Roddick werent playing their best and Andre's level throughout the tournament was higher than theirs. In the final Safin was very nervous and Andre would have been able to take advantage.

Rogiman
02-02-2005, 03:20 PM
If Roger couldn't - no one could have defeated Marat.
Roger was in a dream-form, yet Marat proved too strong.
Safin was the best player in the draw this year, and would have blown Andre off the court had they met.

T-T
02-02-2005, 07:16 PM
Federer was way below his usual form against Safin, so that's no argument. A confident Agassi has all it takes to beat Safin. Unfortunately, his happiness to be competing at this level makes his head spin so much that he chokes.

Rogiman
02-02-2005, 07:19 PM
Federer was way below his usual form against Safin, so that's no argument. A confident Agassi has all it takes to beat Safin. Unfortunately, his happiness to be competing at this level makes his head spin so much that he chokes.

Roger played just as well as Marat allowed him to play, face it:
Andre is no match to Federer and Safin nowadays, and right now Safin is as dominant on this surface as Agassi has ever been.

MissMoJo
02-02-2005, 07:23 PM
Wishful thinking, no. Maybe Andre wouldn't have been as tentative as he seemed to be in his match against Rogi, but i still don't think he would've been able to beat Marat.

AgassiFan
02-02-2005, 09:52 PM
A confident Agassi has all it takes to beat Safin. Unfortunately, his happiness to be competing at this level makes his head spin so much that he chokes.

Absolutely. How many sitting ducks did he blow in the first couple of sets against Roger? He definately had his chances even in the match where he was supposed to lose (and did) in straight sets; of course 2004 AO SF and 2004 USO QF losses were much tighter and his big-point choking was more pronounced as a result.

Bottomline, in the last few years it became apparent that Andre needs a deadly (accuracy, NOT pure velocity) 1st serve to set up his game from the 1st point of the match on - or he'll never beat his much younger opponents. It doesn't look good, but here's hoping.

AgassiFan
02-02-2005, 10:01 PM
OH GOD. TELL ME YOU DIDN'T TRY TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF HERE. WAIT, YOU DID. THE ONLY REASON ANDRE DIDN'T GO UNDEFEATED LAST YEAR WAS BECAUSE HE SQUANDERED GOLDEN CHANCES IN HIS MATCHES.
OTHER THAN THAT HE WAS BLOWING OPPONENTS OFF THE COURT,ESPECIALLY THOSE SETS ENDING 7-5.

....cry me a river...cry me...cry me...


Nigga please. :rolleyes:

Andre takes care of business in either 1st or 2nd set on big points where he had a pretty routine shot for the kill but didn't for some reason, things don't even GET to the tie-breaker crapshoot. Seeing as he did outplay Marat while being down 2 sets to 0 (when there is next to no room for error on your shots), I have little trouble beliving that had the two split the tie-breakers, Andre would have handily won 3rd and 4th set - especially the 4th.

Even if you don't subscribe to the above, to use that AO match as an example of "Marat's obvious superiority" is beyond silly. It was an even match.

AgassiFan
02-02-2005, 10:06 PM
In my opinion this is Andres last year on tour, although there is a chance he will retire following next years AO as he has the best memories there.

You said last season was his last.

Staying relatively injury-free is BY FAR his biggest challenge right now, one that may force him out of tennis at ANY moment now. His skills are still good enough to compete for a Slam, albeit he'll need some breaks in the draw for that to happen.

robinhood
02-02-2005, 11:05 PM
Staying relatively injury-free is BY FAR his biggest challenge right now, one that may force him out of tennis at ANY moment now. His skills are still good enough to compete for a Slam, albeit he'll need some breaks in the draw for that to happen.

Ditto! Andre still can take on younger opponents. He beat both Roddick and Hewitt in Cincinnati last year, and this year he refused to be blown off the court by Joachim Johansson in AO. At his best, he can contend with pretty much everyone except for Fed and Safin when they are playing around their own best level. He definitely needs to avoid either of the two in earlier stages of the tournament. Got to raise his ranking up!!

If Marat keeps his current playing level and his head together in the right direction, I think he'll rise to #2 ranking in no time, since, as someone already pointed, he doesn't have many points to defend until late in the season. That would mean that Andre wouldn't be able to avoid both of them until the final. Should it be the case, I still feel that he has better chance getting by Marat than he does Fed.

foul_dwimmerlaik
02-03-2005, 03:02 AM
Federer was way below his usual form against Safin, so that's no argument. A confident Agassi has all it takes to beat Safin. Unfortunately, his happiness to be competing at this level makes his head spin so much that he chokes.
Oh, please. Andre's been competing on his level for what - 15 years already? And his head still spins from happiness? Uh-huh.

To answer the topic's quiestion - no, I don't think so, unless they meet in the final and Andre's more psychologically solid.

Riley Finn
02-03-2005, 01:14 PM
Nigga please. :rolleyes:

Andre takes care of business in either 1st or 2nd set on big points where he had a pretty routine shot for the kill but didn't for some reason, things don't even GET to the tie-breaker crapshoot. Seeing as he did outplay Marat while being down 2 sets to 0 (when there is next to no room for error on your shots), I have little trouble beliving that had the two split the tie-breakers, Andre would have handily won 3rd and 4th set - especially the 4th.

Even if you don't subscribe to the above, to use that AO match as an example of "Marat's obvious superiority" is beyond silly. It was an even match.

Reading is the key. So go back and read what I wrote and pls show me where I said that it wasn't an even match. And once again 7-5 is indeed putplaying your opponent. Too bad he was outplayed in teh 5th set.

Angle Queen
02-03-2005, 01:18 PM
No. Not this year.

T-T
02-03-2005, 01:53 PM
Oh, please. Andre's been competing on his level for what - 15 years already? And his head still spins from happiness? Uh-huh.

To answer the topic's quiestion - no, I don't think so, unless they meet in the final and Andre's more psychologically solid.

I agree that normally, he's all professional and cool and patiently sits out matches 'til he wins them. Eg. Agassi def. Johansson.

But the day he had to face Federer, he was so ready, so tactically prepared, so fit. He knew he could make history. He had a real chance, and this foresight alone clearly made him choke and error-prone. You just could read his body language, if not you could tell by the several complete misses he made, so untypical for his play.

foul_dwimmerlaik
02-03-2005, 02:55 PM
But the day he had to face Federer, he was so ready, so tactically prepared, so fit. He knew he could make history. He had a real chance, and this foresight alone clearly made him choke and error-prone. You just could read his body language, if not you could tell by the several complete misses he made, so untypical for his play.I'm no expert on Andre's mind or body-language. I doubt that you are, too. From my point of view, he erred because he was pretty solidly outplayed from the very start of the match (and that's not an easy thing for me to say - I was rooting for him).