Article : The ladder to success (battling through the different levels of the tour) [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Article : The ladder to success (battling through the different levels of the tour)

Vale
01-31-2005, 09:12 PM
Hi all! I never post here, but friends in the Gastón Gaudio forum suggested the following translation might be of general interest.
It´s a very comprehensive article (9 pages!) written in Argentina shortly after Gaudio won Roland Garros, and the writer has interviewed most of the Argentine players to get a full picture of how players climb the ladder to success, what they earn, what the perks are, what sort of guarantees they get, all you wanted to know about professional tennis but nobody ever tells you...
Hope you like it! :yeah:

TRANSLATION:

http://www.elgrafico.uolsinectis.co...fico.php?id=137

GASTON GAUDIO
STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN

Each step up in the professional tennis world means a more agreeable future.

As from the 100th place in the world rankings, players can enjoy certain priviledges, but the best are reserved for the top ten. Gastón Gaudio experienced how life can change with a jump and a Grand Slam in one´s pocket.

In many aspects the professional tennis circuit can be compared with society in general. For example, there are very different scales for the rich and the poor, the famous and the unknown, guys who have to make do somehow and who spend more than they earn, and megastars who are treated like kings and never stop increasing their bank accounts. To continue with the simile, the class differences in the ATP circuit are determined by the rankings, which also have a dividing line. That line is the number 100 in the ranking. On one side and the other of that number, there are two totally different worlds.

THE BERLIN WALL

“The aim you set yourself when you start to play professionally is to be in the top hundred. Because you know that if you achieve it you can start to live off your tennis earnings and to make money to be able to continue playing”. Gastón Gaudio, who today enjoys the priviledges of having touched that top ten line thanks to his historic triumph in Roland Garros, does not forget how important crossing that iron curtain was for his life and finances.

The world´s first one hundred have a place assured in fifteen tournaments: the four Grand Slams and eleven ATPs. That permits them to programme their year in a different way, because just by participating they earn more than by winning challenger matches. Simply by stepping on the grass of Wimbledon, the clay of Roland Garros, the rebound ace of Australia or the cement of the US Open each player receives a check for over 12,000 dollars. Let alone winning, when they practically double that figure. In the ATP tournaments the prizes are lower but not to be despised. To lose in the first round in a tournament such as Stuttgart means 3,500 dollars more in their wallets.

In the challenger, future and satellite tournaments – where the players who aren´t in the select group of one hundred play – the prizes are much lower. Those which award the most money and points are the challengers, which in turn are divided into five categories according to the prize money they distribuye: from 25,000 to 125,000 dollars. The player who loses in the first round gets one percent of the total.

Juan Ignacio Chela reveals which other benefits come with belonging to the one hundred club: “You start to be better known, they pay for your hotels and food, they give you transport in all the tournaments and you are considered an important player in the challengers”.

And the differences, which are pronounced as far as earnings go, are painful when losses are examined carefully. The air tickets are an expense shared by players on both sides of the hundred line, but the cost of hotels is borne only by the lower-ranked players. ATP tournaments are obliged by ATP regulations to guarantee the players five days of free lodging and one meal per day.

”The differences between playing in a challenger and an ATP are numerous. The level is different, the tournament, the organization. The difference in rhythm and in the quality of the players is noticeable. In a challenger they can give away two or three games, in an ATP they don´t even give a point away”, Agustín Calleri affirms.

But even though the money and the points are better in an ATP, so are the risks for those who don´t enter directly in the draw. “You know before you start that you can lose in the qualy and spend 2000 dollars in a week. Normally, those who risk that are the ones who have a sponsor or who have already accumulated some capital to be able to play. Someone who has just started playing would never attempt it. If he spent 2000 dollars per week he would be out of funds for other tournaments. Besides, if you play a qualy they don´t pay for your hotel, they don´t pay for your food, and you have to add the cost of the airplane, which the player always pays for”, analyses Franco Squillari, one who has known the luxuries reserved for top players.

When the ranking is insufficient to enter a tournament directly and one has to decide between an ATP and a challenger, lots of aspects have to be weighed: the stress of a qualy, the points and dollars envolved, the surface of the courts, the time of year, the distance in kilometers and hours with the previous tournament and the next. The decision is difficult and the risks taken are big.

Diego Veronelli, who is round about 170 in the ranking, very often finds himself facing this dilemma. “I plan tours of no more than four or five weeks. Sometimes I decide to play a few challengers if I´m defending points and enter directly, but if I don´t need to defend points I may enter for the qualy of an ATP. If you win two matches of the qualy and you lose the last one, you add nothing; in a challenger if you win two matches you´re in the quarter finals and you it does add up. But it´s also true that in an ATP, to get through the qualy and win two matches is like the title in a challenger”, he explains.

DOUBLES OR NOTHING

Playing doubles, which have such little press, are a good means of income for some players. They distribute half the prize money, or less, than the singles, but according to the tournament, it can be a lot. To lose in the first round of doubles in a Grand Slam represents 5000 dollars in the lady´s purse or the gentleman´s pocket. Direct entry depends on the ranking, adding the rankings of both players. “Sometimes it´s real suffering –Veronelli relates- when the inscription opens they´re all doing sums to see if they´re in. Some of them, in case they don´t get in with one player, have already arranged to enter with another. It´s a fight, and sometimes they all end up at loggerheads”.

INVESTMENT FOR THE FUTURE

Without a sponsor and with a low ranking that doesn´t permit direct entry to the ATP tournaments, many players have found a way to continue playing and make money: the Interclubs. In France and Germany tennis is not only very popular, there are also extremely professional tournaments organized between clubs of different cities, with a lot of money at stake, sponsoring by important firms, television coverage and great public attendance on the courts.

“I have a manager, to whom I pay 20% of my earnings, and who gets me good contracts with German second league clubs. I am paid 3000 dollars per match and I play about seven or eight per year. As you have almost no expenses it´s almost all profit. The drawback is that you can´t play tournaments and in those weeks you don´t accumulate points. But the fact is that I make very good money and with that I can support myself for the rest of the season”. Veronelli´s recipe is repeated by the majority of the South American players who aren´t among the top one hundred of the ranking.

And even though this tendency increased after the devaluation (of the Argentine currency), for the last few years it had become a habit among Argentine players. Almost all the well-known faces of Argentine tennis have played interclubs at some point of their careers. “Except for Coria and Nalbandian, who were supported by the Argentine Association, the rest have played interclubs. There´s good money there and it´s a sort of starting point to begin travelling and get some cash to start playing important tournaments. But it´s hard to have to remain four months in Europe because you can´t afford to travel more frequently to Argentina”, says Gaudio, based on the experience of having played three years in Germany.

There are all sorts of arrangements between the clubs and the players, but the Germans always leave it written down in the contracts. The majority cover air fares and all local costs. The amounts involved vary a lot and depend on the player´s ranking. Those who are nearer the 200 mark can get between 1500 and 3000 euros. The higher their world ranking – those above the top 50 are not allowed to participate – the higher is their remuneration, which in the case of a player ranked 60 can reach 10,000 euros per match. Calleri, another player who has experience in this, adds: “I played in the Bundesleague twice, the last time in 2000. I was ranked 75 and it was great, because they also paid you for winning and for the doubles. I made more dough than I had made up till then. And the level is good. You have players who are ranked 60 or 70. In Germany they take it very seriously and at some clubs there were 4000 people watching the matches”.

Besides, there are bonuses for winning, and the clubs don´t always demand exclusive rights as the players can be authorised to travel to play in an ATP and return, so long as it was agreed beforehand. “Normally they ask you to dedicate yourself fully to the club and they don´t want you to take part in a tournament at the same time, but perhaps they might let you play the first round. In that case you have to throw the match and return to play the interclubs. It´s not nice, but when you need the money you do it. You might go to play a first round, the next day you travel to play the interclubs and after that you go off to another tournament”, Squillari reveals. To put an end to this maneuver, and because there were many matches that were thrown, the ATP decided to create a new ruling to fine players who participate in interclubs and circuit tournaments at the same time.

The Argentine women players also take advantage of the interclub benefits, even though they aren´t as financially beneficial as they are for the men. Natalia Gussoni, who is ranked around 130 in the WTA, managed to get a contract in which she is paid 1000 euros per match. And even though the figures in euros are triplicated in Argentina due to the favourable exchange, she has to be frugal and save as much as possible when she´s on the other side of the Atlantic. “If there´s no alternative I travel by air between one city and the next. But it always depends on the distance and the cost. Players of my ranking have to be careful with our expenditures and that´s why we usually travel by train within Europe”, Gussoni explains.

THE FIRST WORLD

Once players are installed among the world´s top one hundred, the goal is to enter the top 50. To enter this elite group guarantees a place in the Masters Series, the nine most important tournaments after the Grand Slams.

The names and faces of those who belong to this group are recognized by everyone who has seen, even out of the corner of the eye, a couple of matches on TV. And that is precisely what attracts the big firms. The offer of contracts from clothing and racquet manufacturers increases, as well as from firms which have no connection with the world of tennis.

For the organizers of tournaments, all players are not the same. “The manner in which they treat you changes a lot as you ascend in the ranking – Calleri says-. They attend to you increasingly better. Perhaps those who are higher placed are given two rooms, a car to get about in on their own and other comforts. I think that´s as it should be, because it´s a way to compensate for all the sacrifices one has made to get up there and it also serves as motivation”.

Even though many don´t agree, to reach the top 50 is more difficult than to stay up there. This is because the circuit is designed to make everything simpler for the players who have reached those priviledged positions. With this system, those on top have direct entry to the most important tournaments and that allows them to programme the year differently. This has also brought about a change in the circuit over the last few years, as players with the highest rankings prepare for the major tournaments and don´t bother with the smaller ones.

They choose to participate in the Grand Slams, the Masters Series and a few other ATP tournaments. Unless he suffers an injury or a string of bad results, it´s unlikely that a player who has reached the top 50 or 60 will fall out of the first positions rapidly. In general, the benefits and the large earnings improve a player´s performance and make everything easier.

To give an example, this is Chela´s case: “When I was close to the top 50 I hired a German manager, who works together with an Argentine. They get me everything. They handle the flight and hotel bookings, manage my contracts and receive the offers. Besides, having a good ranking allows you to give yourself certain luxuries. As you know that you will earn at least a minimum, you can invite a relative or a friend and travel with a full work team, with a coach and trainer”.

Another source of income for the majority of the top 50 are the “guarantees”, the contracts that tournament managers make with the players to ensure their presence. “When my ranking was good –Squillari remembers- they used to call me on my cell-phone and invite me. They made you an offer and you stipulated the conditions. But when you´re on top you have to be intelligent in the way you arrange your schedule and not say yes to everything. There have been players who went and played everywhere to make the most of the moment, and in one or two years they were physically worn-out”.

ASSURED MOTIVATION

The arrangements between players and coaches aren´t always the same. There are contracts for a fixed sum of money, for percentages of the prize money –generally between 10 and 20%- or a mix: a basic sum plus a percentage. This last option is the one most used on the circuit. Franco Squillari justifies it: “If you are a coach and you have a high percentage, you will be ten times more interested for your player to win than if you just have a fixed sum. It is a system in which both are more motivated. As a player, you want your coach to receive his reward if you do well, and if you do badly, he should pay for it as well. It´s one of the best arrangements”.

THE RICH AND FAMOUS

They are the kings of the circuit and they are treated as such at every time and in every place. Except for the Grand Slams and the Super Nine, in which they are obliged to play, for the rest of the tournaments they receive guarantees. The ATP tournaments die for the priviledge of counting with the presence of the top ten, so the organizers do everything possible to make them feel much better than at home.

The success of a tournament depends on the presence of players like Federer, Roddick, Hewitt, Coria and the rest of the troupe who occupy the first ten rungs. “They treat you in a spectacular way. During the tournaments they attend me very well and they always get me very good hotel rooms. One enjoys it a lot, but it´s also a responsibility, and that´s why I believe one has to train harder, to be able to stay up there”, the “Mago” remarks.

The worst thing that can happen to the director of a tournament is the absence of players who attract the public, and for that reason they try to ensure the presence of top ten players a year in advance. So, while a tournament is in progress, irresistible offers of guarantees are being made for the next year´s edition. These guarantees, which vary a lot according to the player –but which in the case of the top five can be as much as 50,000 dollars- generally include:

- Passages for the player, his work group and his entourage of friends and relatives.

- All food and lodging costs for the player and his companions.

- A car for him to drive himself freely during the duration of the tournament, or a chauffeur on 24-hour-call.

- Everything else the player and his entourage might fancy.

The important ATPs don´t need to pay out so much money for a top ten because, in general, they´re tournaments which players want to play. Instead, it´s the tournaments with less prestige that have to invest the most. Especially because there are several where a top ten´s ranking will not vary at all even if he reaches the final and wins. In those cases there is no alternative, there has to be an extra motivation.

For example, André Agassi has been known to receive 200,000 dollars to play in an ATP. And in cases such as those, of such famous players, sometimes it´s not only the guarantee that counts, as there are other questions that can move the scales such as whether the player likes that country, if playing there will not affect a subsequent tour, or if the public are going to treat him well.

A case in point could be Guga and the Buenos Aires ATP. Regardless of whether he is paid a guarantee, the Brazilian plays here because he feels comfortable and he knows that at the Lawn Tennis he´s a local boy, even if there´s an Argentine on the opposite side of the net.

Who has suddenly begun to feel how gratifying and difficult it is to be a mega-star is Gastón Gaudio. With his triumph in Paris, the Gato has made himself strong in the ranking of a circuit in which the higher you are, the less you spend and the more you earn.

PERMANENT AMAZEMENT

From the moment in which he shot that backhand which decided the final of Roland Garros, Gastón Gaudio never ceases to be amazed by the repercussions of his triumph: all the homages, official requests and the support of the ordinary people in the street.

After winning Roland Garros, Gastón Gaudio discovered what the top ten feel. Even before obtaining the title in Paris he had started to notice the change: “When you are getting to the final instances there are few players left, and then the attention is for three or four. I don´t know how I´ll be treated from now on because I haven´t played in any tournament, but I have to play in Sweden and they´ve already called to tell me they are preparing a ceremony. I would never have imagined that I would play a tournament where I would be honoured. Those are the sort of things that you have to start to assume and to accept and that before you didn´t even imagine existed”.

-What other things have changed in your life since you won Roland Garros?

-“As far as my family is concerned, nothing has changed. The changes consist in having to give interviews and accepting engagements that you don´t feel like doing, but which you have to do. For example, the Sports Secretariat calls you for something, the President´s office for another, the press conference you have to give when you arrive, you have to employ a press agent because if you don´t they´ll drive you crazy on the telephone, you have to change your cell-phone number... You have to be nicer all day, because each time a little kid greets you you´re not going to send him cracking just because you´re tired. You can´t go and get tight anywhere or at any time with your friends, because people recognize you, they´re looking at you and it gives a bad impression. People who know nothing about tennis will talk about you and start to invent things. A lot of things change that you would have prefered not to change”.

-And are you also inundated by offers?

-“Yes, now they offer you more dough to go to play in a tournament, an exhibition. I´ve received lots of calls these last few days to play in various tournaments. The contracts I already had stay the same, although the conditions will surely change when they finish, but my manager tqkes care of all that. But all this is not what has impressed me most. I swear that I would change all that for the happiness that winning Roland Garros has given me”.

-Was there anything which really stunned you, that you never imagined could happen?

-“What impressed me most was how people took the match against Coria, a Roland Garros final between two Argentines. I was amazed by the people´s enthusiasm, it was like a River-Boca match. Everybody was caught up in the match, and to arrive here and have people tell you: “You don´t know how I cried”! For your mother to tell you that is understandable, but for people who you don´t even know to tell you that is really touching. They stop me and tell me they had “cábalas” for me. One guy said that he finished seeing the match grasping a window, because when he grasped it once, I started to win, and he didn´t dare let go anymore”.

WORDS OF ONE WHO KNOWS

Eduardo Puppo, the guy whose telephone is on fire because of all the calls he receives from the media all over the world asking for interviews with the Paris champion, is a good source to analyse the moment Gaudio is living through: “After he won Roland Garros Gastón went through a profound change in his relationship with people in general. Perhaps it´s a turning point that only his parents, brothers and closest friends can perceive, that his Paris triumph was much more than winning a Grand Slam. He won a battle over his own life and withdrew the knife from the wound of all who really love him”.

A great change, according to Puppo, can be found in the street: “Now they shout “Grande, Gaudio”, while only fifteen days ago there were still those who accused him of lack of guts. And he never stops saying that life offered him this wonderful opportunity and he was able to take it. What is undeniable is that Gaudio has taken his new-found fame with great professionalism”.

THE TRAIN PASSED AND HE GOT ON IT

The journalist who covered Roland Garros for Latin America and for La Red was moved by Gaudio´s triumph, because he considers that he showed he was capable of taking advantage of this new opportunity that tennis gave him, in the best possible way.

The train passes once or twice in a lifetime. The thing is to be able to take advantage of the opportunity. Most people let the train go by and only realize when they can no longer reach it. Gastón Gaudio let that train go by several times. He can think himself fortunate because the train came back for him. It was one of the last stations, there was no more room to fail; it was now or never, and it was now.

Gastón saw the dark in September of 2003, when he went to Málaga to defend his country´s colours in the Davis Cup semifinals. He went with the reputation of being a “Davis Cup player”. He had won 14 out of the 15 matches he had played. There was nothing to indicate that his nerves would let him down, but when he faced Juan Carlos Ferrero and Carlos Moyá everything collapsed.

From that moment on, the press had its day: not the tennis press, but that other one which appears in important moments to proffer opinions as if it knew what it´s all about, when in fact it doesn´t understand a thing. It´s as if one gives an opinion on economy or medicine.

The results seemed to confirm what the imprudent were saying; however, they never considered that beneath the clothes of the tennis player there was a human being. The media were merciless with him.

Everything continued as if under a cloud until the World Cup this year, when playing against Lleyton Hewitt he faced another typical wasted opportunity, except that this time he didn´t let the opportunity escape. That match was the turning point. One week before Roland Garros.

Later, in Paris, he had to take several difficult subjects: chemistry (Cañas), physics (Novak), shorthand (Hewitt), latin (Nalbandian) and mathematics (Coria). And Gastón approved all of them, some scratching through, others with a 10. For example, against Cañas, Novak, Enquist and Coria, with a 7; Hewitt and Nalbandian, with a 10. The thing is, the guy graduated as a hero. He had gone there as a loser, his ranking was 44, nobody took him into consideration and everybody expected him to weaken. It almost happened in the end, but he reacted in time.

Now the question with Gastón is the day after.

What´s in store for him in the future?

Will this victory change his life?

Many say: “Big joke, if he´s just won a million dollars”.

Of course, one has to discount 30% taxes, at least 10% for his work group, a percentage for his agent (Patricio Apey, Jr.). Various other expenses. He will have about half left, which isn´t bad. But in truth, the prize is the least of it. Gastón has finished his work, now his agent is in charge. There will be new contracts, he will be treated differently, like a champion. Yes, because (even if those who said he lacked guts don´t like it) Gaudio is the only one after Vilas and Sabatini to have won a Grand Slam, and this priviledge belongs to him, and nothing nor nobody can take that away from him.

He will be paid guarantees at tournaments, he will be invited to play exhibitions, he will be acosted by the “friends of the champion”, coincidentally the same ones who used to criticize him. He was invited to the same TV programmes that tore him apart pitilessly before.

He chose two: CQC, he´s a friend of Pergolini, so it´s justified, and Susana Giménez, who tempted him with a car. I congratulate him because he hasn´t wandered around every gossip programme out there. I criticize him for not going to the sports programmes.

I hope he won´t just be satisfied with the title, that he will make the most of it and prove that it wasn´t a chance win. Coria went there to win and left frustrated. Gaudio went to play and deservedly found the trophy. He will have to take advantage of that.

Finally, I hope he won´t end up like some others, that he will copy his idol Gabriela Sabatini and never change. That he will continue to be the same humble guy he always was, but with a high self-esteem.

I hope that that self-esteem won´t change him, because when they are number 30 all the players are nice; when they grow up and go up in the ranking, they change. If Coria had won, a star would have won; Gaudio won, and an ordinary guy won, someone like you or I. That is good, because it means that you also can win.

euroka1
01-31-2005, 11:39 PM
Thanks. I found your article very interesting, especially after all the turbulence at the Australian Open. It caused me to meditate on the costs of fame when the top players lose any anonymity in life and become cash cows for large numbers of hangers on who are trying to make a quick dollar. Just looking at the way many of them behave, it is clearly not a very satisfying life, although it obviously becomes a very addictive one. Then there are all the less than top players trying to get there.
There's a lot to be said for just enjoying a game of tennis with friends of comparable talent two or three times a week just and not letting it or wanting it to go much further.

Vale
02-01-2005, 12:10 AM
Euroka, I like your post. :) I think one has to make the distinction between becoming one of the best in the world doing what you like doing, which must be an incredible sensation we ordinary mortals cannot even imagine, and the day-to-day life of a star, with no privacy and lots of boring duties. But I´m sure the ones who have made it wouldn´t turn back if given a chance. I guess all of us would like to leave our mark...

jmp
02-01-2005, 12:17 AM
Thanks for posting this in GM, Vale. I appreciate what you and euroka1 said in your followups, too. :)

euroka1
02-01-2005, 12:56 AM
Euroka, I like your post. :) I think one has to make the distinction between becoming one of the best in the world doing what you like doing, which must be an incredible sensation we ordinary mortals cannot even imagine, and the day-to-day life of a star, with no privacy and lots of boring duties. But I´m sure the ones who have made it wouldn´t turn back if given a chance. I guess all of us would like to leave our mark...

Only partially agree. It's an incredible sensation, I'm sure but looking at the faces and the frustration and seeing much of the behaviour, I'm not sure many stars like what they are doing anymore. The fact is, they can't turn back. To me, the essence of life is varied experience, not more and still more of the same. Many, even most people as I see it, leave their mark in life in ways that they don't even realise.

But I wouldn't willingly give up that two or three times a week of tennis with friends.

Thanks again for the posting.

Hendu
02-01-2005, 03:04 AM
Great article, Thanks!!! :yeah:

jole
02-01-2005, 03:08 AM
Thanks a lot for the article. Lots of it is obviously very accessible and practical, but there is lots of personal and anecdotal information as well.

Action Jackson
02-01-2005, 03:19 AM
Thanks for the article.

Fedex
02-01-2005, 04:34 AM
Thanks for the article.

Action Jackson
08-05-2006, 09:38 AM
Calleri, another player who has experience in this, adds: “I played in the Bundesleague twice, the last time in 2000. I was ranked 75 and it was great, because they also paid you for winning and for the doubles. I made more dough than I had made up till then. And the level is good. You have players who are ranked 60 or 70. In Germany they take it very seriously and at some clubs there were 4000 people watching the matches”.

It's good to see Calleri having some success again and he is playing in the Bundesliga this year as well, though maybe not so often now.

It's guys like Hartfield and a few others who haven't been able to travel so much initially, so this can be a good earner for them and they get some good matches and maybe they can break through. The world between the haves and not have nots is still large as it always has been.

ae wowww
08-05-2006, 10:31 AM
Thanks for this excellent article, an extremely interesting read :)

Merton
08-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the article.

R.Federer
08-05-2006, 04:16 PM
Very insightful. This is the first time I've seen numbers for the costs and payouts of matches outside the ATP. All the more credit to those from poor countries, with few sponsors, for grinding it out in the lower level at their own expense and making it into the ATP draws

Sjengster
08-05-2006, 04:32 PM
Great stuff, and Vale, your translating skills are superlative for such a lengthy and detailed piece. The mention of the fickle media when Gaudio won RG, praising him where they had previously slated him after the DC debacle, is particularly interesting. Great though his record was in DC competition, maybe people should have looked more closely at where his wins came and against which teams (all weaker opposition in Argentina) before placing so much expectation on his shoulders.

cobalt60
08-05-2006, 04:34 PM
Thanks. I missed this the first time around so thanks also for the bump:)

Action Jackson
08-06-2006, 06:36 AM
The mention of the fickle media when Gaudio won RG, praising him where they had previously slated him after the DC debacle, is particularly interesting. Great though his record was in DC competition, maybe people should have looked more closely at where his wins came and against which teams (all weaker opposition in Argentina) before placing so much expectation on his shoulders.

Yes, it's true these people pissed on him after Malaga, then he won at RG and how quickly that changed.

He did beat some good players like Kafelnikov, Ljubicic then again on clay he should be winning those matches, at the same time what happened in Russia can't be forgotten either.

UncleZeke
08-06-2006, 06:39 AM
thanks for posting

Action Jackson
08-06-2006, 07:24 PM
It was only Coria, Nalbandian and Yayo Massa that got federation support as juniors, but the generation before them as the article states had to do it themselves.

Hendu
08-07-2006, 02:15 AM
Great stuff, and Vale, your translating skills are superlative for such a lengthy and detailed piece. The mention of the fickle media when Gaudio won RG, praising him where they had previously slated him after the DC debacle, is particularly interesting. Great though his record was in DC competition, maybe people should have looked more closely at where his wins came and against which teams (all weaker opposition in Argentina) before placing so much expectation on his shoulders.

I don't agree with you Sjengster,

I have discussed with GeorgeWHitler about this... thread (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=68550&page=3&pp=15&highlight=gaudio+ljubicic+davydenko)

here is a summary:

WC: if you want to consider their rivals to make a comparison (between Calleri and Gaudio), Gaudio has victories over Mirnyi, Ljubicic, Schuettler, Davydenko and Kafelnikov... all in the World Group.

GWH: What is Gaudio famous for when it comes to DC? It's not the matches that he has won for Argentina, it's the ones that he has lost that he is remembered for and not for the right reasons.
Shouldn't Gaudio be beating all those players on clay at home? He has done this and plays well for Argentina usually.

WC: Gaudio not only beated those guys, but shooled them.
Only in the last couple of years Gaudio was able to show in the ATP Tour the level he previously had in the DC. Gaudio grows in the DC.

What I mean is that Gaudio had the game to beat the Spanish in Málaga, but the problem of that tie was not only the loss, it was the way he lost. He sucked BIG TIME, and when Gaudio plays bad, he usually doesn't have a fighting attitude to overcome that... he gets angry and starts to fight with himself.
Until that Tie he was a fan favorite because he showed his best game (almost) only in Davis Cup, when playing for Argentina. He showed a great level of play, sometimes impressive, many times in decisive matches.
He regained his fan favorite status with his RG title.

soraya
08-07-2006, 08:58 AM
interesting article, thanks.

Action Jackson
08-26-2006, 08:06 AM
What I mean is that Gaudio had the game to beat the Spanish in Málaga, but the problem of that tie was not only the loss, it was the way he lost. He sucked BIG TIME, and when Gaudio plays bad, he usually doesn't have a fighting attitude to overcome that... he gets angry and starts to fight with himself.

Until that Tie he was a fan favorite because he showed his best game (almost) only in Davis Cup, when playing for Argentina. He showed a great level of play, sometimes impressive, many times in decisive matches.
He regained his fan favorite status with his RG title.

This is an interesting subject and for the moment Gaudio is not a factor in the DC team.

On the subject of Gaudio, if it wasn't for Gumy helping him out financially, he would have stayed in Temperley.

Click on this clip rise of the Argentines.

http://www.thetennischannel.com/multimedia/

Lee
08-26-2006, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the article. Finally managed to read thru it.

Hendu
08-26-2006, 03:28 PM
This is an interesting subject and for the moment Gaudio is not a factor in the DC team.

On the subject of Gaudio, if it wasn't for Gumy helping him out financially, he would have stayed in Temperley.

Click on this clip rise of the Argentines.

http://www.thetennischannel.com/multimedia/

Nice clip, but I liked Dulko's clip better. :p

jayjay
08-26-2006, 08:25 PM
Yes, it's true these people pissed on him after Malaga, then he won at RG and how quickly that changed.


The criticism Gaudio received post-Malaga was perfectly justified. Winning RG meant that the press were suddenly praising him (you'd expect them to be fickle - that's what the press are) but in the eyes of Argentina supporters who were in Malaga or watching the matches on TV - Gaudio's attitude more than his performances were completely unacceptable.

I hoped he would never play DC for us again since that moment and I still feel the same. Even to have him as part of the squad does not interest me, it was completely counter productive for that to happen in Slovakia.

World Beater
08-26-2006, 10:37 PM
great article.

Action Jackson
08-27-2006, 06:39 AM
The criticism Gaudio received post-Malaga was perfectly justified. Winning RG meant that the press were suddenly praising him (you'd expect them to be fickle - that's what the press are) but in the eyes of Argentina supporters who were in Malaga or watching the matches on TV - Gaudio's attitude more than his performances were completely unacceptable.

I hoped he would never play DC for us again since that moment and I still feel the same. Even to have him as part of the squad does not interest me, it was completely counter productive for that to happen in Slovakia.

What happened was over the top. Yes, he was out of form and yes it was shit performances, but who turned up to play when out of form, when others were either injured or couldn't be bothered to play.

So you are going to blame him for what happened in Slovakia? They weren't good enough to win and the number 1 at the time Coria failed to perform when it counted.

Of course you have a short memory and Gaudio saved the team going out of the WG, but if it wasn't for him and a few others, then Mancini wouldn't be DC captain. Can't have it both ways.

Hendu
08-27-2006, 04:54 PM
The criticism Gaudio received post-Malaga was perfectly justified. Winning RG meant that the press were suddenly praising him (you'd expect them to be fickle - that's what the press are) but in the eyes of Argentina supporters who were in Malaga or watching the matches on TV - Gaudio's attitude more than his performances were completely unacceptable.

I hoped he would never play DC for us again since that moment and I still feel the same. Even to have him as part of the squad does not interest me, it was completely counter productive for that to happen in Slovakia.

You have BAD memory...

Gaudio sucked in Malaga, but he is a great Davis Cup player... and all that bashing he received after the tie against Spain was disgusting... we woulnd't have been there in the first place if it wasn't for him.
Tennis fans who have been watching the Argentine team in Davis Cup for a long time praise Gaudio.

Gaudio was, is and will be a fan favorite... for his tennis, humility, and for the way he plays in DC.

Gaudio's Davis Cup record (http://www.daviscup.com/teams/player.asp?player=10012931)

jayjay
08-27-2006, 05:23 PM
[QUOTE=GeorgeWHitler]What happened was over the top. Yes, he was out of form and yes it was shit performances, but who turned up to play when out of form, when others were either injured or couldn't be bothered to play.

Nalbandian, Coria and Canas were all injured. That's why Gaudio was playing.

So you are going to blame him for what happened in Slovakia? They weren't good enough to win and the number 1 at the time Coria failed to perform when it counted.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote? My problem with Slovakia was the atmosphere in the camp, which when Coria and Gaudio are part of is nearly always fractious. Both of them should never be called together again, and I don't forsee a time again that they will - which is good for Argentina.

I am interested in Argentina first, whereas you maybe are more interested in Gaudio first.

Coria was poor in Slovakia, we lost because Slovakia were better than us. Although Nalbandian did what he could. Having Gaudio play certainly would not have done us any better, or does he have a fast court record I don't know about?

Of course you have a short memory and Gaudio saved the team going out of the WG, but if it wasn't for him and a few others, then Mancini wouldn't be DC captain. Can't have it both ways.

Again, I don't know what you are alluding to. My criticisms of Gaudio in Malaga are to do with his attitude that he showed his team mates and the fans who travelled there (of which I was one).

I don't care in the slightest that he lost his matches, Ferrero was a strong fav against him, and Moya was also a fav against him.

However, when someone just walks around looking like they were tanking a late season challenger when there are 100's of Argentina fans giving their support and asking only that the players give their best effort.........it's something hard to forget.

When you add in the efforts of Zabaleta on the Friday, putting in a great performance that would have seen him get a win over Moya before injury struck - and even still he carried on as best he could putting up more of a fight than Gaudio even bothered to do against Ferrero or Moya - it's quite alarming.

The main reason Gaudio received heavy criticism post-Malaga was the huge disparity between himself and Zabaleta/Calleri/Arnold in the efforts they gave on the court to try and give Argentina a win against big odds after the loss of Nalbandian, Coria and Canas.

Calleri in particular gained legendary status that weekend for his heart and balls - he gave everything in doubles and against Ferrero - he was magnificent and it starts with the attitude before the execution of the performance.

As for Mancini as captain, many players were involved in him becoming so not just Gaudio. If you want me to bow down to Gaudio or forget what happened in Malaga - you are not fully appreciating the situation.

I wish Gaudio well during his own matches, but when it comes to Argentina I'd rather see players who can at least be relied upon to give their all - win or lose.

jayjay
08-27-2006, 05:34 PM
[QUOTE=WillyCañas]You have BAD memory...

No, I don't.

Gaudio sucked in Malaga, but he is a great Davis Cup player...

His record against largely poor opposition in Argentina on clay is very good, as it should be. Other than that to call him a great DC player is a little flawed.

When we have had chances to make the DC Final - Gaudio has always come up short, be it against Kafelnikov in Russia or Ferrero or Moya in Spain.

I don't criticise the result he got in those matches, he was the underdog in all of them and he could and should have beaten Kafelnikov having got in the position he did.

In Spain, it was a different story - there was no effort or will there. And that I think is unacceptable. You can always accept players playing well or badly, that's just the way sport is - sometimes you have it and sometimes you don't.

What isn't acceptable is effectively tanking DC matches - I've seen Gaudio do it many times on the tour and if he wants to do that at times it's up to him his responsibility is only to himself, his family and his core fans.

When representing Argentina, the responsibility is to represent the nation, your team mates and all of the Argentina Tennis fans, or just Argentines in general - all that people should expect is that they give their best. What I saw with my own eyes was not that, and it was hugely disappointing and once you've seen it once you don't want to see it again.

Tennis fans who have been watching the Argentine team in Davis Cup for a long time praise Gaudio.

I've been watching for a long time, and I don't particularly. I'm sure he has his fans - but how many of them are willing to defend what happened in Malaga can surely only do so if they never saw the matches live or on TV.

Gaudio was, is and will be a fan favorite... for his tennis, humility, and for the way he plays in DC.

At the end of the day, Argentina fans (myself included) will support whatever team we put out there in whatever sport - but I think your views on him being some kind of DC great are a little overblown. I respect your views even though I couldn't possibly agree with them.

Hendu
08-27-2006, 06:21 PM
Again, I don't know what you are alluding to. My criticisms of Gaudio in Malaga are to do with his attitude that he showed his team mates and the fans who travelled there (of which I was one).

I don't care in the slightest that he lost his matches, Ferrero was a strong fav against him, and Moya was also a fav against him.

However, when someone just walks around looking like they were tanking a late season challenger when there are 100's of Argentina fans giving their support and asking only that the players give their best effort.........it's something hard to forget.

When you add in the efforts of Zabaleta on the Friday, putting in a great performance that would have seen him get a win over Moya before injury struck - and even still he carried on as best he could putting up more of a fight than Gaudio even bothered to do against Ferrero or Moya - it's quite alarming.

The main reason Gaudio received heavy criticism post-Malaga was the huge disparity between himself and Zabaleta/Calleri/Arnold in the efforts they gave on the court to try and give Argentina a win against big odds after the loss of Nalbandian, Coria and Canas.

The attitude he showed in Malaga was the same attitude he had when he helped Argentina in its way back to the World Group and in his many victories. It was not a matter of lack of effort, but a matter of a psicological weakness. When he plays bad, starts to fight with himself... but that has nothing to do with lack of will.

The attitude he showed his team mates? Gaudio had and still is a friend of most Argentine players.

And the heavy criticism didn't come from tennis journalists but from journalists who didn't know a crap of tennis (especially futbol journalists).

Gaudio is the Best Davis Cup player of his generation. ¿poor opposition on clay?
He still managed to show a better level of play in Davis Cup than Coria, Nalbandian and Cañas.

jayjay
08-27-2006, 07:33 PM
[QUOTE=WillyCañas]The attitude he showed in Malaga was the same attitude he had when he helped Argentina in its way back to the World Group and in his many victories. It was not a matter of lack of effort, but a matter of a psicological weakness. When he plays bad, starts to fight with himself... but that has nothing to do with lack of will.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

The attitude he showed his team mates? Gaudio had and still is a friend of most Argentine players.

I'm talking of the effort he gave on court was a disrespect to his team mates. Watching Calleri v Ferrero and then Gaudio v Moya....you couldn't see two more contrasting levels of application and attitude in the space of a few hours.

And the heavy criticism didn't come from tennis journalists but from journalists who didn't know a crap of tennis (especially futbol journalists).

The press are not my concern - I don't think any player deserves the harrasement and ridicule that press circles dish out to all sports pros all over the world.

My own view is that from that day I never wanted to see Gaudio play for us again, at least not in a match of any great significance or meaning. If it's against Mongolia in BA - he'll be fine, but add some historic importance or pressure to a match, and Gaudio is certainly not a guy we need to use.

Gaudio is the Best Davis Cup player of his generation. ¿poor opposition on clay?
He still managed to show a better level of play in Davis Cup than Coria, Nalbandian and Cañas.

I'm not sure how on earth you could come to that conclusion.

All Gaudio's 13 DC singles wins have come in Argentina on clay. Quite a few of the players he has beaten are guys alot of even knowledgable Tennis fans would never have heard of. His most notable wins are against Davydenko, Ljubicic, Kafelnikov, Schuettler. All on clay in Argentina where he really should be winning, and has done so. Take him out of Argentina and he can't win to save his life.

Of the others you mention, I'd agree Coria has not played alot of DC yet and with the way he currently is won't hope to for a while (as much as he would like to). Cañas also does not have that much match play experience, so I'd agree Gaudio has a better record than him also.

However to claim Gaudio is a better DC player than Nalbandian is quite frankly absurd. It's not true on a stat sheet or by looking at the body of work itself.

Gaudio's record overall is 13-3 in singles, with not a single win outside Argentina on clay.

Nalbandian has a singles record of 9-2 and an overall record of 16-3 (inc.doubles). He like Gaudio is unbeaten in Argentina, but more importantly he has significant wins outside Argentina like against Hewitt on Grass in Australia and against Hrbaty Indoor in Slovakia. These are the kind of wins Gaudio could never be able to achieve for Argentina. He's also helped us win some great doubles matches that either kept us in ties or swung them our way altogether like with Arnold in that epic in Russia against Safin/Kafelnikov, or in Australia when he and Mariano put us ahead going into Sunday. Aswell as this years win with Chucho over Ljubicic/Cilic in Croatia. The important factor is that these matches are away from home and you need to be able to win away at some point to be successful in DC and that's something Gaudio and maybe even Coria cannot do enough of, or in Gaudio's case at all.

Nalbandian is the cornerstone of our current side, without him there everything else falls apart. He is clearly the best DC we have out of the names you have mentioned.

Hendu
08-27-2006, 07:48 PM
I'm not sure how on earth you could come to that conclusion.

All Gaudio's 13 DC singles wins have come in Argentina on clay. Quite a few of the players he has beaten are guys alot of even knowledgable Tennis fans would never have heard of. His most notable wins are against Davydenko, Ljubicic, Kafelnikov, Schuettler. All on clay in Argentina where he really should be winning, and has done so. Take him out of Argentina and he can't win to save his life.

Of the others you mention, I'd agree Coria has not played alot of DC yet and with the way he currently is won't hope to for a while (as much as he would like to). Cañas also does not have that much match play experience, so I'd agree Gaudio has a better record than him also.

However to claim Gaudio is a better DC player than Nalbandian is quite frankly absurd. It's not true on a stat sheet or by looking at the body of work itself.

Gaudio's record overall is 13-3 in singles, with not a single win outside Argentina on clay.

Nalbandian has a singles record of 9-2 and an overall record of 16-3 (inc.doubles). He like Gaudio is unbeaten in Argentina, but more importantly he has significant wins outside Argentina like against Hewitt on Grass in Australia and against Hrbaty Indoor in Slovakia. These are the kind of wins Gaudio could never be able to achieve for Argentina. He's also helped us win some great doubles matches that either kept us in ties or swung them our way altogether like with Arnold in that epic in Russia against Safin/Kafelnikov, or in Australia when he and Mariano put us ahead going into Sunday. Aswell as this years win with Chucho over Ljubicic/Cilic in Croatia. The important factor is that these matches are away from home and you need to be able to win away at some point to be successful in DC and that's something Gaudio and maybe even Coria cannot do enough of, or in Gaudio's case at all.

Nalbandian is the cornerstone of our current side, without him there everything else falls apart. He is clearly the best DC we have out of the names you have mentioned.

First: I said Gaudio is the best player of his generation... David is not in that group.

Second: I also said that the level of play that Gaudio showed in Davis Cup was better than Nalbandian's.
David had better victories, especially outside Argentina, and can play on every surface. So he is much more valuable than Gaudio for DC.
But I have been watching the Argentine team in Davis Cup since 1996, and I have never seen anyone play in the DC as well as Gaudio.

These are our main disagreements:

I'm talking of the effort he gave on court was a disrespect to his team mates. Watching Calleri v Ferrero and then Gaudio v Moya....you couldn't see two more contrasting levels of application and attitude in the space of a few hours.

My own view is that from that day I never wanted to see Gaudio play for us again, at least not in a match of any great significance or meaning. If it's against Mongolia in BA - he'll be fine, but add some historic importance or pressure to a match, and Gaudio is certainly not a guy we need to use.

Action Jackson
08-28-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by jayjay
Nalbandian, Coria and Canas were all injured. That's why Gaudio was playing.

This will be fun. You seem to see what you want to see, but I will get onto that later. Gaudio was in shocking form and lacked confidence, but was called up cause of his excellent DC record (the quality of opponents has been discussed plenty of times), even then with all the injured he should have not played.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote? My problem with Slovakia was the atmosphere in the camp, which when Coria and Gaudio are part of is nearly always fractious. Both of them should never be called together again, and I don't forsee a time again that they will - which is good for Argentina.

In others words you are looking for a scapegoat for what happened in Slovakia? Fact is you pick your best team available and Gaudio and Coria don't have to lick each others arses to play.

I am interested in Argentina first, whereas you maybe are more interested in Gaudio first.

Coria was poor in Slovakia, we lost because Slovakia were better than us. Although Nalbandian did what he could. Having Gaudio play certainly would not have done us any better, or does he have a fast court record I don't know about?

You are making this too easy. See this thread below, this is clear enough as to what I think is more important.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=68368

It was good that Coria played that 4th match against Hrbaty, and not Gaudio as it was strongly rumoured for 2 reasons. One, Coria is better on that surface and two he hates playing Hrbaty anywhere.




Again, I don't know what you are alluding to. My criticisms of Gaudio in Malaga are to do with his attitude that he showed his team mates and the fans who travelled there (of which I was one).

I don't care in the slightest that he lost his matches, Ferrero was a strong fav against him, and Moya was also a fav against him.

However, when someone just walks around looking like they were tanking a late season challenger when there are 100's of Argentina fans giving their support and asking only that the players give their best effort.........it's something hard to forget.



What am I alluding to? I thought someone as knowledgeable as yourself would have got that. Willy did. Basically Gaudio has won matches that stopped Argentina going down to the Zonal group, but that is always forgotten by people with selective memories.

He is always like that, even when plays well. You are accusing him of tanking live rubbers in Davis Cup, that is hilarious to the extreme. It's not like he is playing for himself, where he has done that a few times and there is another tournament around the corner. It's not the same with the Davis Cup or you want to disagree with this? He is mentally fragile, that is obvious.

When you add in the efforts of Zabaleta on the Friday, putting in a great performance that would have seen him get a win over Moya before injury struck - and even still he carried on as best he could putting up more of a fight than Gaudio even bothered to do against Ferrero or Moya - it's quite alarming.

You lost credibility there. Cramp is not an injury and never has been and go to your doctor and ask whether cramp is an injury. Zabaleta got nervous and it effected him and he was in better form than Gaudio as was Calleri and Zab was the #1 player at the time.

Luza took a risk and it didn't work, they substituted Zabaleta instead of Gaudio someone losing 14 games in a row should be clear enough indication that they were in a poor mental state and there was plenty of indication to that previously, which you have seemed to overlook.

As for Mancini as captain, many players were involved in him becoming so not just Gaudio. If you want me to bow down to Gaudio or forget what happened in Malaga - you are not fully appreciating the situation.

I wish Gaudio well during his own matches, but when it comes to Argentina I'd rather see players who can at least be relied upon to give their all - win or lose.

Stop practicing selective reading. The original comment was Gaudio along with some players campaigned to get rid of Luza, which was a very good move and they got their wish with someone that all of the players respected hence Mancini is the captain.

Good to see you finished with an insincere comment. Here is the essential difference I actually don't give a crap who gets picked as long as they are in form and it's the best team available. Well what do we have now with Argentina? The best side available with the right players in form, if that includes Coria and Gaudio in the future, then they deserve to be picked, if not, then they don't.

jayjay
08-28-2006, 03:59 PM
[QUOTE=GeorgeWHitler]This will be fun. You seem to see what you want to see, but I will get onto that later.

No, I actually saw it unfold with my own eyes. Thanks.

Gaudio was in shocking form and lacked confidence, but was called up cause of his excellent DC record (the quality of opponents has been discussed plenty of times), even then with all the injured he should have not played.

Gaudio is invariably in shocking form and has lacked confidence near enough his entire career, nothing new there I'm afraid. You're right though, even with all the players unavailable he should not have played.

In others words you are looking for a scapegoat for what happened in Slovakia?

No, not at all. You are continually making it out as if I am solely bashing Gaudio - which suits your agenda as you are willfully defending him even when he is not being criticised for anything.

Mancini made a mistake to call Coria AND Gaudio, it was talked about beforehand by fans/press as a potential mistake and it proved to be so. Did we lose in Slovakia because of this? No, most likely not. Coria was in the midst of his slump/dip which continues to this day and we needed Nalbandian to win both singles and help win doubles. Had we won the doubles, Nalbandian most likely would have got the job done for us as he did in Australia - unfortunately it wasn't to be.

Fact is you pick your best team available and Gaudio and Coria don't have to lick each others arses to play.

That's right you pick your best available team, and that doesn't necessarily mean your highest 4 ranked players. There are many things to consider, and team harmony is one. It helps the squad if there is unity rather than division, and we are lucky to have a healthy pool of good/decent players to choose from.

We have seen this year that the mix of the current squad is very good, and I hope they see it out to the end win or lose.

Far from licking each others asses, I'm sure you know the history with Coria and Gaudio - it's best they are kept apart from each other. All you get when they come together is snide remarks against each other be it publicly or privately, bringing a cancer into the squad and splitting the camp. If they were the only players we had we might have to put up with it, but since we have many more - it's not something we should need to put up with.

Especially since both of them have yet to prove they can win matches for Argentina outside Argentina on surfaces other than clay. Guille if he finally gets back to his high level would be able to do that for us at times, QF showings at US Open, Final in Miami, Beijing, winning Basle proves he is more than capable of strong results elsewhere when he's at his best.

Gaudio though, I'm sure you are not going to try and claim can do anything for us off a clay court. And the record shows, no wins outside Argentina at all - clay or otherwise.

It was good that Coria played that 4th match against Hrbaty, and not Gaudio as it was strongly rumoured for 2 reasons.

Gaudio was not realistically going to play. Luli was always going to go with Coria, in many ways it didn't matter. I don't think any of Coria, Gaudio or Puerta would have beaten Hrbaty in Slovakia.

Basically Gaudio has won matches that stopped Argentina going down to the Zonal group, but that is always forgotten by people with selective memories.

No, it's not forgotten. I just wonder how much praise you expect Gaudio to get for helping beat Mexico and Canada in Argentina? You do know we beat both of them 5-0 don't you? It wasn't just Gaudio who helped us, it was the likes of Calleri and Squillari too.

You place far too much importance on these results - do you honestly think we would not have won them without Gaudio? Please.

He is always like that, even when plays well.

Not always, but mostly I'll give you that.

You are accusing him of tanking live rubbers in Davis Cup, that is hilarious to the extreme.

Effectively he did, sometimes being in the stadium gives you a clearer picture of all that is going on than watching on a TV. We'll end up going round in circles on this if we have not already, so it's best we just leave it at the fact that we saw different matches here.

It's not like he is playing for himself, where he has done that a few times and there is another tournament around the corner. It's not the same with the Davis Cup or you want to disagree with this?

And that's the problem - he played for himself instead of who he was representing and that's where the frustration and disappointment stems with him. The fact that he lost his matches as I said is not important to me, because he was not expected to win either - but the way he did perform but more importantly apply himself, he may as well have not been there - essentially, he wasn't anyway.

He is mentally fragile, that is obvious.

No arguments here. Although that is not a criticism of Gaudio exclusively, many of our players tend to shit themselves a little too much when the winning line is in sight.

You lost credibility there. Cramp is not an injury and never has been and go to your doctor and ask whether cramp is an injury. Zabaleta got nervous and it effected him and he was in better form than Gaudio as was Calleri and Zab was the #1 player at the time.

Whether you want to define cramp as injury or not, does not concern me. It's not the issue, the point is that he showed more heart than Gaudio did and there is no reason why Gaudio could not have shown the same level of desire. Gaudio treated the tie like any of his regular tour matches if things are not going his way, he just gave up.

Luza took a risk and it didn't work, they substituted Zabaleta instead of Gaudio someone losing 14 games in a row should be clear enough indication that they were in a poor mental state and there was plenty of indication to that previously, which you have seemed to overlook.

The way Gaudio had played on the Friday, I would have been perfectly happy to have seen Arnold take the court against Moya. He would have been similarly thrashed, but at least he might have broken sweat in doing so.

Stop practicing selective reading. The original comment was Gaudio along with some players campaigned to get rid of Luza, which was a very good move and they got their wish with someone that all of the players respected hence Mancini is the captain.

Yes, it was good that Luza was removed and Luli came in. However your comment on it was made as if it was :worship: to Gaudio time.

Which you may choose to do so if you wish, but I see no reason to.

Well what do we have now with Argentina? The best side available with the right players in form, if that includes Coria and Gaudio in the future, then they deserve to be picked, if not, then they don't.

I've made my feelings on this known already. I doubt very much there will ever come a time again where Coria AND Gaudio are in the kind of form that merits a DC call up, so I don't believe it is a situation that will need to be addressed in future.

And if it becomes so, as I have said for the good of the team they should not be called together. One or the other, we have more than enough good players to fill the void.

Action Jackson
08-29-2006, 09:37 AM
Gaudio is invariably in shocking form and has lacked confidence near enough his entire career, nothing new there I'm afraid. You're right though, even with all the players unavailable he should not have played.

No, not at all. You are continually making it out as if I am solely bashing Gaudio - which suits your agenda as you are willfully defending him even when he is not being criticised for anything.


He normally plays well in DC, but there you go again, selective memory. He was in poor form at the time and yes worse than before, which led to the point about not playing this tie.

Accusing someone of tanking in a live DC match is a not a criticism, then night doesn't follow day. Actually I don't have an agenda at all. What have I said already

a) The performances were very poor, he deserved to be criticised for those, but it was over the top.
b) He should not played the tie, cause of his mental state and poor form at the time.
c) You pick your best side available under the circumstances, which I said previously the one now is the right one at the moment.

Gaudio though, I'm sure you are not going to try and claim can do anything for us off a clay court. And the record shows, no wins outside Argentina at all - clay or otherwise.

Why would he be picked when there are better players for matches on surfaces and injuries weren't an overriding factor.

We can keep going in cricles about this for as long as you want. If you think someone would go out of their way to tank matches when they are playing for their nation, when something major is on the line, then that is your problem. What would be the point of doing it then?

xinyu2006
08-29-2006, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the article.

jayjay
08-29-2006, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=GeorgeWHitler]He normally plays well in DC, but there you go again, selective memory.

We have already discussed this and it's clear we see things differently. You place alot of importance on matches that I feel Gaudio should be winning - and he has done the job in Argentina, the job that he should do.

He has been an adequate DC player - you must take into consideration in totality of the opposition and location of his matches to put his record in context.

Otherwise you could just as easily say that Aleksandra Wozniak is the greatest Fed Cup player of all time, no?

Accusing someone of tanking in a live DC match is a not a criticism, then night doesn't follow day.

Certainly, his long in weekend in Malaga I criticise him. Without a shadow of a doubt. What I saw perfectly justifies that, you won't be able to convince me that what I saw was something else I'm afraid as hard as you may try.

If you think someone would go out of their way to tank matches when they are playing for their nation, when something major is on the line, then that is your problem.

You don't think that the Gaudio performances against Ferrero and Moya were at all similar to the many tank jobs he has provided on the regular tour? Seriously?

I don't think Gaudio went out with the intention to tank, but as per usual when things aren't going his way and he just doesn't feel like it - nothing can help him, not even 100's of Argentina fans trying to encourage him (before eventually some of them had enough of his attitude and slated him in the stadium) or his team mates shouting to him to raise his level and keep his head up in between points.

And that's the problem - Gaudio does not have a good attitude for DC when times are tough because we know the player and mind that Gaudio is on court. So yes, give him Canada in Argentina and he can get the job done no problems but give him Spain in Spain and it's all a little too much - so why bother at all hey Gaston?

It's not like anything I am saying here will be news to you - if you're a Gaudio fan or just a Tennis fan in general then it's no secret he is one of the serial tankers on tour, and that kind of mentality unfortunately can also extend to DC.

And that has been my argument all along - in Malaga Gaudio showed he cannot be relied upon to at least play with some hunger and apply himself well - even if he is not playing as well as he would hope to.

Surely you would agree that is the biggest regret - to come off court knowing you probably could have done more to help yourself. Gaudio has had many of those days, and continues to do so - I just prefer to never see it again for Argentina in DC.

Daniel
08-30-2006, 01:38 AM
Thanks for the article.

jayjay
08-30-2006, 02:50 AM
Apologies, amidst the discussion with GWH I forgot to add my thanks for the posting of the article. It was a great read. :yeah:

chicky841
08-30-2006, 02:55 AM
Very interesting article thx for postin.

The discussion goin on in this thread is interesting as well...

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 05:07 AM
We have already discussed this and it's clear we see things differently. You place alot of importance on matches that I feel Gaudio should be winning - and he has done the job in Argentina, the job that he should do.

He has been an adequate DC player - you must take into consideration in totality of the opposition and location of his matches to put his record in context.



I have said he normally plays well in DC and as for those players he should have beaten. I have already said that before and if you want to read my true thoughts about this. The who will win Davis Cup 06 thread which I will bump up I state in a discussion with Willy about why Calleri and Acasuso should play and this was before the AO says clearly what my take is.

Then there was the criminal overrule by Dias on his match point against Kafelnikov in Russia, but he wasn't strong enough to recover, that is his own fault.

Certainly, his long in weekend in Malaga I criticise him. Without a shadow of a doubt. What I saw perfectly justifies that, you won't be able to convince me that what I saw was something else I'm afraid as hard as you may try.

You don't think that the Gaudio performances against Ferrero and Moya were at all similar to the many tank jobs he has provided on the regular tour? Seriously?

Against Gambill at the US Open, you want a classic tank job and that was it. When did I say he didn't deserve to be critcised for his performances? I think I have seen more than enough tennis to see a tank job , but you want to overlook the circumstances behind his inclusion in the team, that inclusive of the poor mental state he was in before the tie? We have done that enough already.

I am very familiar with what he is like, he isn't the mentally toughest player out there, but at least you are honest about it unlike other people, who changed their tune after he won RG and that is what it was all about initially.

It's not like anything I am saying here will be news to you - if you're a Gaudio fan or just a Tennis fan in general then it's no secret he is one of the serial tankers on tour, and that kind of mentality unfortunately can also extend to DC.

You think he tanked and I don't. Tanking in a DC is not on and look what happened afterwards and during the match, that alone is a reason not to tank live matches and there never is a good reason to do it when not playing for your nation, when many others would do it for nothing.

Surely you would agree that is the biggest regret - to come off court knowing you probably could have done more to help yourself. Gaudio has had many of those days, and continues to do so - I just prefer to never see it again for Argentina in DC.

He didn't just let down himself, no, the worst thing is that what happened is that he played so poorly and cracked when he was playing for Argentina, and not himself that makes it worse and he has to live with that.

drf716
08-30-2006, 07:00 AM
...

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 07:02 AM
Apologies, amidst the discussion with GWH I forgot to add my thanks for the posting of the article. It was a great read. :yeah:

At least we agree that this article was a great read. It's even going to be harder now if Mr Disney wants to introduce RR, that means they will have to play in Germany for longer.

jayjay
08-30-2006, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=GeorgeWHitler]I have said he normally plays well in DC and as for those players he should have beaten. I have already said that before and if you want to read my true thoughts about this. The who will win Davis Cup 06 thread which I will bump up I state in a discussion with Willy about why Calleri and Acasuso should play and this was before the AO says clearly what my take is.

I will catch up on that thread, yet to read it but I will. :)

Then there was the criminal overrule by Dias on his match point against Kafelnikov in Russia, but he wasn't strong enough to recover, that is his own fault.

He did really well to get in the position to win that match, if anything that was his most impressive DC display. Even though he lost. He shouldn't have lost in the position he got into, but before the match if someone had said to me Gaudio would have got so close I would not have believed it.

Against Gambill at the US Open, you want a classic tank job and that was it.

That really was classic Gaudio, I remember it well. :lol:

You think he tanked and I don't. Tanking in a DC is not on

This is the main point of discussion to which you are correct we see it differently. Although I think we both strongly agree that as you say, tanking in DC is not on.

So I'm sure you can appreciate (even if you don't agree) why I feel the way I do about his DC future from that moment on.

jayjay
08-30-2006, 12:42 PM
[QUOTE=GeorgeWHitler]At least we agree that this article was a great read. [QUOTE]

Absolutely, and I've enjoyed the discussion very much I think it was very constructive. :)

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 12:58 PM
This is the thing I have discussed with a few good arguments about this. I mean this is the golden generation in terms of depth for Argentine tennis and they need to capitalise on it.

It's not going to be around forever and this is the thing as bad as it might be the fact that Calleri, Chela, Zabaleta, Canas, Gaudio and Puerta didn't get support from the Federation might have worked out for the better, though it was tough.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 01:45 PM
This is the thing I have discussed with a few good arguments about this. I mean this is the golden generation in terms of depth for Argentine tennis and they need to capitalise on it.

It's not going to be around forever and this is the thing as bad as it might be the fact that Calleri, Chela, Zabaleta, Canas, Gaudio and Puerta didn't get support from the Federation might have worked out for the better, though it was tough.

Don't worry GWH, Coria is preparing his heroic comeback, David will at least keep his part-time attention to tennis so he will be able to stay in the top ten for some years. And you know there is a tall kid who is a star in the making.

And most important of all, Cañas said he dreams about playing the DC final for Argentina... ;)

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 01:49 PM
Don't worry GWH, Coria is preparing his heroic comeback, David will at least keep his part-time attention to tennis so he will be able to stay in the top ten for some years. And you know there is a tall kid who is a star in the making.

And most important of all, Cañas said he dreams about playing the DC final for Argentina... ;)

I think David only cares about DC when it comes to tennis and yes I know about the tall Tandil kid, then there is the guy who always looks stoned from Misiones as well.

As I said most of the guys made it not cause they got support from the Fed, it was in spite of them.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 01:57 PM
I think David only cares about DC when it comes to tennis and yes I know about the tall Tandil kid, then there is the guy who always looks stoned from Misiones as well.

As I said most of the guys made it not cause they got support from the Fed, it was in spite of them.

Yes, some players even considered to stop playing tennis...

Calleri did it for some time.

But I like to think those days are over, since the arrival of Coria and Nalbandian generation. I certainly hope so.

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 02:02 PM
Yes, some players even considered to stop playing tennis...

Calleri did it for some time.

But I like to think those days are over, since the arrival of Coria and Nalbandian generation. I certainly hope so.

Calleri working in his parents shop, then you had Gaudio who almost quit and the whole Gumy thing that I mentioned before. Zabaleta was luckier cause he came from a rich family and being #1 in the junior helped.

Cañas was a self-made guy as well, then you look at some of the guys like Hartfield who have struggled as well as Vassallo Arguello who had to play for Italy, cause it was easier to play there in Europe for the challengers and got Perez Roldan to coach him for free.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 02:21 PM
Calleri working in his parents shop, then you had Gaudio who almost quit and the whole Gumy thing that I mentioned before. Zabaleta was luckier cause he came from a rich family and being #1 in the junior helped.

Cañas was a self-made guy as well, then you look at some of the guys like Hartfield who have struggled as well as Vassallo Arguello who had to play for Italy, cause it was easier to play there in Europe for the challengers and got Perez Roldan to coach him for free.

Vasallo Arguello is back to playing for Argentina.

jayjay
08-30-2006, 02:36 PM
This is the thing I have discussed with a few good arguments about this. I mean this is the golden generation in terms of depth for Argentine tennis and they need to capitalise on it.

It's not going to be around forever and this is the thing as bad as it might be the fact that Calleri, Chela, Zabaleta, Canas, Gaudio and Puerta didn't get support from the Federation might have worked out for the better, though it was tough.

Absolutely, this is our "Golden Generation" in terms of quality and depth - so if we can't get at least one DC success somewhere along the line it will have been a massive collective underachievement.

I also have high hopes for the coming years that Nalbandian and Del Potro will be beating the shit out of everyone, anywhere. So I expect us to get stronger because we have lacked someone to back up Nalbandian on all surfaces for the most part.

We have not had the luck with away ties in Semis before, but there are no excuses this year. We should beat Aussies 5-0, and then I hope the group of Nalbandian, Calleri, Chela and Acasuso prepare themselves as best they can after a long, hard season to arrive in Moscow as best prepared as they can to hopefully win it.

I would obviously prefer we won it in Argentina so the fans could share the celebrations with the players, but I won't be complaining wherever it happens to be when we win it.

And I do feel it's when rather than if. :)

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 02:38 PM
Vasallo Arguello is back to playing for Argentina.

Yes, I know that, but when I found out that Perez Roldan coached him for nothing, that was very good to do that.

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 02:44 PM
Absolutely, this is our "Golden Generation" in terms of quality and depth - so if we can't get at least one DC success somewhere along the line it will have been a massive collective underachievement.

I also have high hopes for the coming years that Nalbandian and Del Potro will be beating the shit out of everyone, anywhere. So I expect us to get stronger because we have lacked someone to back up Nalbandian on all surfaces for the most part.

We have not had the luck with away ties in Semis before, but there are no excuses this year. We should beat Aussies 5-0, and then I hope the group of Nalbandian, Calleri, Chela and Acasuso prepare themselves as best they can after a long, hard season to arrive in Moscow as best prepared as they can to hopefully win it.

I would obviously prefer we won it in Argentina so the fans could share the celebrations with the players, but I won't be complaining wherever it happens to be when we win it.

And I do feel it's when rather than if. :)

For sure with this crop of talent there has to be a Davis Cup there for the taking. I mean these guys are not quite as good as the Swedes in the 80s, but that was ridiculous that level, but they are very good and need to take advantage.

Obviously they can win most ties on clay, but it's not like Spain in 2000 when they had all home ties and they will make the final for sure. I mean they could use Davin and Lobo and beat the Aussies.

If Argentina win it away from home in my eyes, that will make it even sweeter winning 2 ties away from home on fast surfaces. Acasuso has done well so far in his matches for DC, but if Davydenko plays for Russia, the first thing I would do if I was Luli was. Che! Chela you are playing.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 02:49 PM
Absolutely, this is our "Golden Generation" in terms of quality and depth - so if we can't get at least one DC success somewhere along the line it will have been a massive collective underachievement.

I also have high hopes for the coming years that Nalbandian and Del Potro will be beating the shit out of everyone, anywhere. So I expect us to get stronger because we have lacked someone to back up Nalbandian on all surfaces for the most part.

We have not had the luck with away ties in Semis before, but there are no excuses this year. We should beat Aussies 5-0, and then I hope the group of Nalbandian, Calleri, Chela and Acasuso prepare themselves as best they can after a long, hard season to arrive in Moscow as best prepared as they can to hopefully win it.

I would obviously prefer we won it in Argentina so the fans could share the celebrations with the players, but I won't be complaining wherever it happens to be when we win it.

And I do feel it's when rather than if. :)

Even in we did win the Davis Cup, this generation would have underachieved. Nalbandian is a great player, and a solid top 5, but given his talent he should be fighting for the #1 and should have won more tournaments.
Coria is extremelly talented and should have at least a RG title under his belt...
I know those things are very difficult to achieve, but they could have done it.

I hope Del Potro lives up to his potential.

The back up for Nalbandian was Cañas... with Willy and David we have a good team for all surfaces. Too bad Willy couldn't play last year.
But don't count him off for the DC final, if we get there.

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 03:00 PM
I think maybe Willy could go as a hitting partner and motivation man for the tie against Russia, but I don't think they could select him.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 03:06 PM
I think maybe Willy could go as a hitting partner and motivation man for the tie against Russia, but I don't think they could select him.

Skeptic...

Only time will tell.

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Skeptic...

Only time will tell.

Realist and it's not I have anything against Willy at all. He'd have to win some challengers first and he is unranked at the moment, then if he does that, then he'd need one of those 4 to be out injured before they'd consider playing him.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 03:21 PM
Realist and it's not I have anything against Willy at all. He'd have to win some challengers first and he is unranked at the moment, then if he does that, then he'd need one of those 4 to be out injured before they'd consider playing him.

If he has to play challengers to move up in the rankings or ATP tournaments is not that important.

If he shows he has his level of play back, then he is a better player on hard than Chela and Chucho. And he is a better DC player than Chela and has a lot more battles in DC than the "Misionero".

Knowing Cañas attitude to the game and professionalism, I am pretty sure he will come back strong.

My team:

Nalbandian, Calleri, Cañas, Chela/Chucho.

Nalbandian and Cañas/Calleri playing the doubles.

Action Jackson
08-30-2006, 03:24 PM
It's going to take more than 2 months to get his level back to anywhere near what he is capable of.

Hendu
08-30-2006, 03:31 PM
It's going to take more than 2 months to get his level back to anywhere near what he is capable of.

Skeptic...

Only time will tell.

;)

jayjay
08-30-2006, 06:15 PM
If Argentina win it away from home in my eyes, that will make it even sweeter winning 2 ties away from home on fast surfaces.

I see what your saying. It's more impressive to win away than at home - stating the obvious I know.

jayjay
08-30-2006, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE=WillyCañas]Even in we did win the Davis Cup, this generation would have underachieved. Nalbandian is a great player, and a solid top 5, but given his talent he should be fighting for the #1 and should have won more tournaments.
Coria is extremelly talented and should have at least a RG title under his belt...
I know those things are very difficult to achieve, but they could have done it.

I was talking from just a DC perspective.

I agree with what you say re:Their Singles careers - Nalbandian is capable of more but we know he has other things on his mind at times. And Coria well, he pretty much did win the FO - but of course, he did not.

I hope Del Potro lives up to his potential.

It's very early to say, but I'm quite confident he will. I saw him in BA against Ferrero, and the potential was there to see. And all that has happened since, especially since Stuttgart onwards has been exactly the kind of progression you would hope for him.

Hopefully he can get his 1st slam win today. :)

jayjay
08-30-2006, 06:51 PM
I think maybe Willy could go as a hitting partner and motivation man for the tie against Russia, but I don't think they could select him.

Very much agree, Mancini would be mad to bring him in. As much as I respect Guillermo's fighting qualities and his dream/desire to be a part of the final squad - it's not realistic.

Mancini could only drop any of Calleri, Acasuso, Chela for the Final because of a drastic drop in form from any of them. Or injury of course.

I'll say this though, I'd take a 50% match sharp Canas over Pico Monaco!

Action Jackson
08-31-2006, 04:39 AM
Very much agree, Mancini would be mad to bring him in. As much as I respect Guillermo's fighting qualities and his dream/desire to be a part of the final squad - it's not realistic.

Mancini could only drop any of Calleri, Acasuso, Chela for the Final because of a drastic drop in form from any of them. Or injury of course.

I'll say this though, I'd take a 50% match sharp Canas over Pico Monaco!

Cañas has the DC spirit for sure and hopefully he can be a part of a winning team at some point in the future and as for the comment about Monaco, well I don't doubt that.

Action Jackson
11-21-2006, 07:49 AM
Skeptic...

Only time will tell.

Now we are closer to the time and it looks Willy will be the training partner and head cheerleader in Moscow.

His comeback has been fantastic.

Hendu
11-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Those posts pretty much describe the situation:

I think maybe Willy could go as a hitting partner and motivation man for the tie against Russia, but I don't think they could select him.

Realist and it's not I have anything against Willy at all. He'd have to win some challengers first and he is unranked at the moment, then if he does that, then he'd need one of those 4 to be out injured before they'd consider playing him.

But we still have to wait how the players adapt to the surface.

I think the only things that keep Chela inside of the team are his record against Davydenko and Mancini not wanting to change the structure of a winning team.

I hope Cañas manages to kick the crap out of everyone during trainings, and makes it difficult for Luli to choose.

Calleri and Acasuso never took a set off Davydenko, so its not like there are many options. I think Mancini will play Chela on Friday.

Nalbandian will have to win the three points for Argentina to win the tie.

mtw
11-21-2006, 01:59 PM
I must say, that Gaston Gaudio played quite well. But Gaudio played worse, as Guillermo Coria. So Gaudio had luck. Guillermo Coria had attack of renal colic, that's why he losed. Renal colic is very painful and sorry disease, which is cause of nephrolithisis. Some patient has problems with rise of bed in this state. Guillermo Coria is very resistant, as he could bear it so long. I think, that Coria was not healthy in this year too. He can have something with cervical vertebral column, r. brachial plexus or group of muscles. He should go to neurologist.

Action Jackson
11-22-2006, 07:49 AM
Those posts pretty much describe the situation:

But we still have to wait how the players adapt to the surface.

I think the only things that keep Chela inside of the team are his record against Davydenko and Mancini not wanting to change the structure of a winning team.

I hope Cañas manages to kick the crap out of everyone during trainings, and makes it difficult for Luli to choose.

Calleri and Acasuso never took a set off Davydenko, so its not like there are many options. I think Mancini will play Chela on Friday.

Nalbandian will have to win the three points for Argentina to win the tie.

I will answer this in the DC final thread on here.

Action Jackson
02-13-2007, 10:54 PM
I wonder if the AAT are doing anything to help the next generation of players coming through?

Glad to be proven wrong about Cañas as well. As crass as it might seem, maybe the lack of foresight from the federation was the thing that spurred on Zabaleta, Calleri, Chela, Gaudio, Puerta on.

The golden generation have to win a DC soon or it will be very disappointing.

Hendu
02-13-2007, 11:22 PM
I wonder if the AAT are doing anything to help the next generation of players coming through?

Glad to be proven wrong about Cañas as well. As crass as it might seem, maybe the lack of foresight from the federation was the thing that spurred on Zabaleta, Calleri, Chela, Gaudio, Puerta on.

The golden generation have to win a DC soon or it will be very disappointing.

The AAT has US$ 600.000 to support the young players... an article I posted in my journal some months ago (http://www.menstennisforums.com/journal.php?do=showentry&e=8543&enum=8) said that the generation of Mayer, Massa, Molinero, Lépore and Jozami wasn't going to be supported anymore, due to the lack of results. (they are of the same generation of Del Potro).
The support of the AAT would go (and I guess right now is going) to the Sub 16: Guido Pella (who traveled as a training partner with the Argentine team to Linz), Facundo Bagnis, Guido Andreozzi, Nicolás Pastor, Valentín Flórez, Kevin Konfederak, Tatiana Búa and Rocío Galarza. And the Sub 14: Agustín Vellotti, Tomás Buchhass, Natalí Coronel and Melina Ferrero.

Action Jackson
02-13-2007, 11:31 PM
The ATT has US$ 600.000 to support the young players... an article I posted in my journal some months ago (http://www.menstennisforums.com/journal.php?do=showentry&e=8543&enum=8) said that the generation of Mayer, Massa, Molinero, Lépore and Jozami wasn't going to be supported anymore, due to the lack of results. (they are of the same generation of Del Potro).
The support of the ATT would go (and I guess right now is going) to the Sub 16: Guido Pella (who traveled as a training partner with the Argentine team to Linz), Facundo Bagnis, Guido Andreozzi, Nicolás Pastor, Valentín Flórez, Kevin Konfederak, Tatiana Búa and Rocío Galarza. And the Sub 14: Agustín Vellotti, Tomás Buchhass, Natalí Coronel and Melina Ferrero.

Thanks for that info, so it looks like Mayer and these other guys could go down the same path as say Roitman, Vassallo Arguello and Hartfield.

Hendu
02-13-2007, 11:41 PM
Thanks for that info, so it looks like Mayer and these other guys could go down the same path as say Roitman, Vassallo Arguello and Hartfield.

I'm still hoping that Leo Mayer, Emiliano Massa and Eduardo Schwank will turn into good professional players and prove the AAT wrong.

I really don't know how these kind of decisions are taken. I guess (I hope) Gustavo Luza, the director of the National School of high performance of the AAT, has a saying on these issues.

Action Jackson
02-13-2007, 11:47 PM
I'm still hoping that Leo Mayer, Emiliano Massa and Eduardo Schwank will turn into good professional players and prove the AAT wrong.

I really don't know how these kind of decisions are taken. I guess (I hope) Gustavo Luza, the director of the National School of high performance of the AAT, has a saying on these issues.

I like Roitman, Vassallo Arguello and Hartfield, but didn't they all have financial problems when they needed to play events outside of South America initially and hindered their development to an extent.

Well Luza would have to be better here, than he was a Davis Cup captain.

Hendu
02-14-2007, 12:09 AM
I like Roitman, Vassallo Arguello and Hartfield, but didn't they all have financial problems when they needed to play events outside of South America initially and hindered their development to an extent.

Well Luza would have to be better here, than he was a Davis Cup captain.

Well, the financial limitations of the AAT are definitely not new. I really don't know how much it affected the development of those players.

On a side note, a couple of months ago it was announced that the School of high performance of the AAT will have a new "home". A tennis complex donated by Sabatini and some others. It will have 10 claycourts, 4 hardcourts, of which two will have a roof, a gym and rooms for the kids that come from other parts of the country.
The juniors used to play in the back courts of the Buenos Aires Lawn tennis Club.

R.Federer
02-15-2007, 08:57 PM
This article is related to Vale's (it is an old one from the IHT), so I did not create a new thread for it.


For Many Players, Hardship and Frustration : Tennis's Potential Stars Face Hard Road to Fame

By Christopher Clarey
International Herald Tribune
Monday, September 7, 1998
It is an alluring, commotion-filled fish bowl, a Grand Slam tennis tournament, and those who can often put it in perspective best are players who have spent plenty of time on the outside pressed against the glass.
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"I've seen every level," said Geoff Grant, a 28-year-old late-bloomer with long red hair, quick feet and a quick wit. "I've been in Uzbekistan for two weeks for a tournament. That was the closest thing to a prison I've been in. We had no control over the food we ate: the pieces of meat were all bone. This was good food to them because this was a poor country, and obviously, being a spoiled American, it was just rough."
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As of Sunday morning, there were four American men left in the United States Open: two established stars, Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi; and two potential stars, Jan-Michael Gambill and Grant, who has played for few rewards in places where computers ranking points are nearly as rare as courtesy cars.
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Grant has woken up in Haiti in the middle of the night sweating because the electricity in his hotel had conked out along with the air-conditioning. He has taken ill in Guatemala and experienced motion sickness on a bus on his way to Tegucigalpa, Honduras. He also has played matches in satellite tours, the minor leagues of tennis, in which he and his opponent have had to call their own lines because umpires were not available.
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"It might help for the top guys to have an understanding of what some of the other players have had to go through," Grant said. "Satellites are the roughest. You've got to be kind of an animal out there. You're not playing for money certainly. The only thing you're playing for is computer points. You have to win so many matches to scrape out some. You don't have that luxury these guys have where if you lose, you can go home with some money in the bank, having eaten well and seen a nice city. Everything is on the line."
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Grant began hitting tennis balls at age 3 against his family's refrigerator, but despite his headstart, he did not play in his first Grand Slam event until last year's Australian Open. Top prospects in the United States and elsewhere often receive start-up money from agents when they turn professional.
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Grant and his father, David, took a more enterprising approach after he graduated from Duke University: signing up investors and giving them a stake in Grant's career. "They'd invest say, $5,000 with a chance to get their money back plus a percentage if I made money," Grant said.
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He did not make much, and in 1994, he quit for 10 months because he said he was "jealous of people getting ahead of me in the business world and moving ahead with their normal lives." Grant did not stay jealous for long, and at the U.S. Open qualifying tournament in 1995, he reached the final round.
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He has been at it ever since, and after qualifying for the Open last year and pushing Gustavo Kuerten, the French Open champion, to five sets in the first round, he was given a wild card into the main draw this year. He might be ranked only 133d in the world, but he is in the third round after beating Andrei Medvedev, a former member of the top five who is no longer the flavor of the month but can still generate plenty of pace from the baseline.
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"In the past, I might have just been happy to be in the main draw and just be playing at the U.S. Open, but once you get content like that is when you really don't close out matches like you should," said Grant. "This has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'd just like to be a good personality for tennis. Our sport needs as many good personalities as it can get."
.
Annie Miller, a player from Michigan, is preparing to drop out of tennis. At only 21 and with a world rank of 45, her third-round match against Monica Seles, which she lost 6-3, 6-3 on Saturday, could be her last. On Tuesday, unless she loses her nerve, she will begin at the University of Michigan, studying Spanish, statistics and geography.
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Part of the reason for her decision to take a break from the tour is financial: without sponsorship contracts and with a coach and travel expenses to pay, she says that, even with a ranking of 45, it is difficult to make a fine living after paying the coach $1,000 to $1,500 per week and paying the coach's and your own travel expenses.
.
"Our prize money is probably half what the guys is, and I think any player at my level will tell you, they aren't able to live and spend right and left," Miller said. "They have to watch their money at this ranking unless they have endorsement contracts or sponsors. But the difficult thing for me is I'm not from Costa Rica or some country that doesn't have any other star players. I'm from the U.S. I'm just average for my country."
.
And with rising players like the Williams sisters and Anna Kournikova earning big money to represent sporting-goods companies, there is much less for those lower in the pecking order. "I definitely wouldn't say they don't deserve that," Miller said. "Because they are also bringing more prize money and visibility to our tour."
.
But Miller's decision to take a sabbatical is not just about finances; it is also about the search for a more nurturing, normal environment.
.
"The greatest thing in the world is that Carlos Moya and Alex Corretja went out to dinner before the French Open final," she said. "The guys, and maybe guys in general, really seem to be able to separate the on-court and off-court stuff.
.
"A lot of the girls are friends with each other and have friends but the way I feel, and maybe I just take everything too personally, is that there is somehow not enough total separation."
.
And so Miller, tired of being negative and tired of questioning her priorities on a daily basis, will separate tennis from her life altogether for a time. She will no longer be Annie Miller, tennis player. She will be Annie Miller, undergraduate.
.
"I was always raised — and education was an important thing in my family — that I wasn't for sure going to turn pro like girls like Venus and Anna," she said. "They were groomed from childhood to know that this is what they want to do. This is their ticket to a wonderful life, and they've really done that. But I was lucky or not to come from a family where tennis wasn't going to be my only way."

Action Jackson
03-09-2007, 03:12 AM
Well, the financial limitations of the AAT are definitely not new. I really don't know how much it affected the development of those players.

On a side note, a couple of months ago it was announced that the School of high performance of the AAT will have a new "home". A tennis complex donated by Sabatini and some others. It will have 10 claycourts, 4 hardcourts, of which two will have a roof, a gym and rooms for the kids that come from other parts of the country.
The juniors used to play in the back courts of the Buenos Aires Lawn tennis Club.

Actually in a perverse way it was good for guys like Chela. Canas, Gaudio, Zabaleta, Acasuso, Calleri not to have the support as they weren't pampered and they shared the same experiences together of not being thought of highly enough by the AAT, so when Gaudio won RG, it just made it a bit sweeter :)

Hendu
03-09-2007, 03:42 AM
Actually in a perverse way it was good for guys like Chela. Canas, Gaudio, Zabaleta, Acasuso, Calleri not to have the support as they weren't pampered and they shared the same experiences together of not being thought of highly enough by the AAT, so when Gaudio won RG, it just made it a bit sweeter :)

yes, but one wonders what would have happened if the AAT did support the young players. How many more professional players would Argentina have...

And how did the lack of support affect our players development?

krystlel
03-09-2007, 09:43 AM
Thanks for posting that article R.Federer. I'm very surprised with the financial problems that women's players face, even with relative success (top 50).

RonE
03-09-2007, 02:12 PM
The ladder to success....

To many people's detriment they work their asses off climbing up the ladder and when they reach the top they find this well hung guy saying to them "hi, I'm Sess".

Action Jackson
11-21-2007, 03:37 AM
Roitman and Hartfield have had their best ever years and it shows that the talent was there, but it doesn't matter at what age relative success is achieved and yes they played Bundesliga as well.

Action Jackson
02-05-2008, 03:04 AM
yes, but one wonders what would have happened if the AAT did support the young players. How many more professional players would Argentina have...

And how did the lack of support affect our players development?

Yes, of course it was shit that all these guys were forgotten about in reality by the AAT and I mentioned the problems Roitman, Hartfield and Vassallo had as well in their development years, which you can see that it took them longer to make it.

There needs to be investment, instead of the AAT lining their pockets with the money. That is just a dream I know, though at the same time some would say the difficulties they had, helped them produce these players.

It's not like Spain, where they don't need to be playing juniors, when there are many events within the country, and the Futures when they are starting out, one could almost play that every week.

After this generation finishes and we are seeing the signs of Gaudio and Coria's decline, they pretty much have to win a Davis Cup soon, there isn't much coming after del Potro, not quite sure on Guido Pella at the moment.

Action Jackson
07-12-2008, 06:13 AM
Eduardo Schwank was a top junior had a lot of injuries and some problems financially at the start to get on tour.

He has overcome them and doing very well at the moment. Argentina need him to be fit, because the older generation the one that go help from the fed are in decline.

Looks like he and del Potro will have to step up and help Nalbandian out.

Hendu
07-12-2008, 08:12 AM
Eduardo Schwank was a top junior had a lot of injuries and some problems financially at the start to get on tour.

He has overcome them and doing very well at the moment. Argentina need him to be fit, because the older generation the one that go help from the fed are in decline.

Looks like he and del Potro will have to step up and help Nalbandian out.

Yes, Schwank had financial problems lacking support from the AAT after the injuries, and some personal problems. The AAT decided to support younger players, and there you go, his efforts have been rewarded with his current form. Good for him.

Monaco, Schwank and Del Potro are the inmediate future of Argentine tennis... I remember the days when Gumy was our only top 100 player. We will be ok... golden generations don't happen all the time.

Action Jackson
07-12-2008, 08:37 AM
Yes, Schwank had financial problems lacking support from the AAT after the injuries, and some personal problems. The AAT decided to support younger players, and there you go, his efforts have been rewarded with his current form. Good for him.

Monaco, Schwank and Del Potro are the inmediate future of Argentine tennis... I remember the days when Gumy was our only top 100 player. We will be ok... golden generations don't happen all the time.

:wavey:

The mystery man has come out of hiding, there have been people asking about your whereabouts and I'm not joking either.

I still think that they have to win the DC this year, or it's going to be very hard for them in the future. Monaco will be solid and he has had a difficult year in 2008, with a few injury and other problems.

Schwank or del Potro one of them at least will make the final in Stuttgart, but they have succeeded like I said, not because of Morea and his cronies, it's more in spite of them.

Hendu
07-12-2008, 08:56 AM
:wavey:

The mystery man has come out of hiding, there have been people asking about your whereabouts and I'm not joking either.

I still think that they have to win the DC this year, or it's going to be very hard for them in the future. Monaco will be solid and he has had a difficult year in 2008, with a few injury and other problems.

Schwank or del Potro one of them at least will make the final in Stuttgart, but they have succeeded like I said, not because of Morea and his cronies, it's more in spite of them.

:wavey:

Back in Buenos Aires for vacation. Been with limited internet acces, and I haven't watched a tennis match since mid january. :o

Good to be back, at least for some days... then "back to hiding" in Patagonia.

To be honest, I didn't expect to see Schwank at this level of play. Del Potro seems to be finding some kind of momentum.

Corias and Nalbandians don't come very often. People have to put things in perspective. With the poor ammounts of money invested, it is a miracle the players we get.

Action Jackson
07-12-2008, 09:28 AM
:wavey:

Back in Buenos Aires for vacation. Been with limited internet acces, and I haven't watched a tennis match since mid january. :o

Good to be back, at least for some days... then "back to hiding" in Patagonia.

To be honest, I didn't expect to see Schwank at this level of play. Del Potro seems to be finding some kind of momentum.

Corias and Nalbandians don't come very often. People have to put things in perspective. With the poor ammounts of money invested, it is a miracle the players we get.

jayjay and the guys on the Kings of Clay, were asking about you and if you dropped in there, they'd be happy.

As for not watching tennis, what are on an oil rig or something down there? I mean you should be down in Ushuaia, hehe.

Schwank, I like what I see with him, he does have a bit of the Zabaleta about him, though he has a better slice BH, but his 2 hander can be exposed. Confidence from winning the challengers and he is working with Nalbandian's brother Javier, he needs to improve tactically, but he is not as dumb on court as say Berdych.

del Potro, now he has big Franco Davin coaching him, and he knows how to handle some different characters, well he was with Coria and he did great work with Gaudio. To me del Potro is a bit of a kid as well, so Davin can work well with him, but he needs a proper strengthening program, so he doesn't fall to too many injuries.

Well yes many people forget that at one time it was only Gumy and Squillari, but Gaudio, Cañas, Chela, Calleri, Acasuso, Zabaleta, well the older guys got through and made it without any help financially from the federation.

Unfortunately after seeing all these guys make it, there was more interest in the game, but I don't think they have put in the right policies to be able to develop that talent through, so it looks like the Vilas club and others have to take it up.

Hendu
07-12-2008, 03:55 PM
jayjay and the guys on the Kings of Clay, were asking about you and if you dropped in there, they'd be happy.

As for not watching tennis, what are on an oil rig or something down there? I mean you should be down in Ushuaia, hehe.



I have lived in a tent for three months and other 3 in a room with no tv. :shrug:
I can go to a cybercafe and read the news from time to time.
An oil rig? no!, pretty much the opposite. Working as a park ranger in the north of Patagonia, in the Rio Negro province.

I'll drop in Kings of Clay, and see whats going on in there.

Hendu
07-12-2008, 04:55 PM
Schwank, I like what I see with him, he does have a bit of the Zabaleta about him, though he has a better slice BH, but his 2 hander can be exposed. Confidence from winning the challengers and he is working with Nalbandian's brother Javier, he needs to improve tactically, but he is not as dumb on court as say Berdych.

del Potro, now he has big Franco Davin coaching him, and he knows how to handle some different characters, well he was with Coria and he did great work with Gaudio. To me del Potro is a bit of a kid as well, so Davin can work well with him, but he needs a proper strengthening program, so he doesn't fall to too many injuries.

Well yes many people forget that at one time it was only Gumy and Squillari, but Gaudio, Cañas, Chela, Calleri, Acasuso, Zabaleta, well the older guys got through and made it without any help financially from the federation.

Unfortunately after seeing all these guys make it, there was more interest in the game, but I don't think they have put in the right policies to be able to develop that talent through, so it looks like the Vilas club and others have to take it up.

The clubs can't take the role of the federation. With todays currency, the young players need support more than ever in order to travel.

Although the number of quality players is probably declining, there won't be a slump like in the 90's.

Isn't it curious how many of the new argentine players prefer the faster surfaces?

Action Jackson
07-14-2008, 04:21 AM
The clubs can't take the role of the federation. With todays currency, the young players need support more than ever in order to travel.

Although the number of quality players is probably declining, there won't be a slump like in the 90's.

Isn't it curious how many of the new argentine players prefer the faster surfaces?

The problem with federation is not just Morea, but he has managed to piss off many people. Yes, the federation should be able to help them travel to play junior events, so they can test themselves against the better players.

Like I said before it's not like Spain, where they have so many Futures and Challenger events, the clubs can help them as well.

The game has changed and we all know that most of the major events are on the hardcourts these days, so this could be reflected in that.

Hendu
07-14-2008, 06:08 AM
The game has changed and we all know that most of the major events are on the hardcourts these days, so this could be reflected in that.

In what way do you think todays calendar influences the style of play/surface preference of the new players?

As far as I can recall (though my memory is terrible :p), Nalbandian is the first Argentine player whose game is clearly fast court oriented... flat shots (specially the BH), returning skills, attacking style standing on the line, volleying skills, etc...
The explanation was that he learned the game on a hardcourt that his father and some others built in his home town. Which seemed logical, if you consider that almost all the courts of Argentina are claycourts.

Then there are players like Chela or Cañas, who with the years changed their games, and became as good (or better?) on slow hardcourts as they were on clay. I think Monaco is in the same direction...

But now there is Del Potro and Schwank who prefer hardcourts over clay... and so does Guido Pella, the best Argentine prospect.

could it be that it has to do with the fact that these new players grew up watching Agassi, Sampras, Rafter, Kafelnikov, Hewitt... and there weren't Argentine players to emulate then. The previous Argentine generation grew up watching the end of Vilas career, Clerc, Mancini, Jaite, etc...

I don't know... I don't see the same happening in Spain, for example. The Spanish players follow the tradition of the game on clay... maybe not Feli Lopez or Verdasco, but most of them do I think.

sorry, i am digressing. lol

Action Jackson
08-01-2008, 12:35 PM
In what way do you think todays calendar influences the style of play/surface preference of the new players?

As far as I can recall (though my memory is terrible :p), Nalbandian is the first Argentine player whose game is clearly fast court oriented... flat shots (specially the BH), returning skills, attacking style standing on the line, volleying skills, etc...
The explanation was that he learned the game on a hardcourt that his father and some others built in his home town. Which seemed logical, if you consider that almost all the courts of Argentina are claycourts.

Then there are players like Chela or Cañas, who with the years changed their games, and became as good (or better?) on slow hardcourts as they were on clay. I think Monaco is in the same direction...

But now there is Del Potro and Schwank who prefer hardcourts over clay... and so does Guido Pella, the best Argentine prospect.

could it be that it has to do with the fact that these new players grew up watching Agassi, Sampras, Rafter, Kafelnikov, Hewitt... and there weren't Argentine players to emulate then. The previous Argentine generation grew up watching the end of Vilas career, Clerc, Mancini, Jaite, etc...

I don't know... I don't see the same happening in Spain, for example. The Spanish players follow the tradition of the game on clay... maybe not Feli Lopez or Verdasco, but most of them do I think.

sorry, i am digressing. lol

You could be right about the generational shift, well with Nalbandian he had a hardcourt in his backyard, so it makes sense that he was going to be more comfortable on that surface. At the same time as you know, if you can't play on clay in Argentina, then it's going to be very difficult to progress through the ranks.

Now, there are more hardcourts than there were before, but apart from del Potro and Schwank there isn't anything between them and Pella. One can never tell how these things will develop.

Vale
08-01-2008, 03:04 PM
The federation should be able to help them travel to play junior events, so they can test themselves against the better players.

Couldn´t agree more.

What few people know is that for several years now Gabriela Sabatini has been silently helping promising youngsters, covering their travel costs to enable them to take part in junior events abroad!:worship:

Action Jackson
08-10-2008, 03:57 PM
Couldn´t agree more.

What few people know is that for several years now Gabriela Sabatini has been silently helping promising youngsters, covering their travel costs to enable them to take part in junior events abroad!:worship:

Morea is an absolute clown, well his comments about Gaudio after Malaga, well in his particular position, weren't the best and it's not like Acasuso and Calleri are big on the man either.

AGUSTIN CALLERI. On the juniors in Argentina.

"The structure of national tennis? Do you have enough tapes to record? Because I could talk about this for hours. When I was in juniors, which was played nationally by regions, in one month we would have three weekends of competitions: the Rio Cuarto regional championship, the Cordoba state championship or other provincial towns, and the national championship.

Nowadays, the kids don't know how to compete. There is one person in particular who changed everything for the worse, because today, the kids have no motivation. Before, you could hardly wait for the weekend to arrive so you could play the tournaments. Juniors, cadets and children would all get on board and travel together. Today that doesn't exist, you go and watch a national tournament and there's no one there, you don't have any audience. Before, the courts would be full."

fast_clay
08-10-2008, 09:35 PM
quality...

spent a while reading this... still digesting it all...

how impressive was the argy rise...? no grand slam in South America... not even a MS... finaincially not the most bless'd country to base an assault on world tennis... just a generation of hard workers... vastly different characters in the make up as well...very fitting that gaudio walks away with the hero status...

compelling stuff and a great snapshot in time...

the article wont lose anything with age cos i dont see the barrier connecting each different class level merging them any closer together in the future...

fast_clay
08-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Morea is an absolute clown, well his comments about Gaudio after Malaga, well in his particular position, weren't the best and it's not like Acasuso and Calleri are big on the man either.

AGUSTIN CALLERI. On the juniors in Argentina.

"The structure of national tennis? Do you have enough tapes to record? Because I could talk about this for hours. When I was in juniors, which was played nationally by regions, in one month we would have three weekends of competitions: the Rio Cuarto regional championship, the Cordoba state championship or other provincial towns, and the national championship.

Nowadays, the kids don't know how to compete. There is one person in particular who changed everything for the worse, because today, the kids have no motivation. Before, you could hardly wait for the weekend to arrive so you could play the tournaments. Juniors, cadets and children would all get on board and travel together. Today that doesn't exist, you go and watch a national tournament and there's no one there, you don't have any audience. Before, the courts would be full."

reminds me of australia 1990 vs 2000...

town of 3000... clay courts...

5 divisions... 8 teams in divsion... 12 minimum in a team...

30+ courts used incorporating 3 sattelite villages...


then.. there was nothing...

Hendu
08-10-2008, 11:13 PM
quality...

spent a while reading this... still digesting it all...

how impressive was the argy rise...? no grand slam in South America... not even a MS... finaincially not the most bless'd country to base an assault on world tennis... just a generation of hard workers... vastly different characters in the make up as well...very fitting that gaudio walks away with the hero status...

compelling stuff and a great snapshot in time...

the article wont lose anything with age cos i dont see the barrier connecting each different class level merging them any closer together in the future...

Thanks to Vilas popularizing the game, there are lots of courts, lots of people playing and lots of teachers.

No support by the tennis association, though.

fast_clay
08-11-2008, 02:54 AM
vilas... just a beast of a man...

Action Jackson
11-16-2008, 04:27 PM
The ladder has just become harder to climb.

fast_clay
11-16-2008, 05:16 PM
yes... a few extra rungs it would seem... and... a few other steps are in need of some maintence as well..

Action Jackson
11-25-2008, 06:21 AM
This Argentine generation have lost their chance of DC glory, it will be difficult to see Cañas or Calleri playing much of a role if they end up winning it.

With the changes, it's going to even harder to make it through now.

Arkulari
11-25-2008, 06:41 AM
what I find the most surprising is that one of the biggest headcase tennis players from Argentina ended up walking with a Slam (Gaudio would have won so much if not for his mental weakness, his game is beautiful :D )

while the likes of Fat Dave, Coria and Cañas couldn't make it, now Del Potro is the new Argie hope, but frankly I don't see him climbing higher or accomplishing more stuff than Fat Dave o Gaudio :shrug:

Action Jackson
11-30-2008, 11:07 PM
The AAT made a lot of money from the Davis Cup final, but none of that will go through to player development.

fast_clay
12-01-2008, 12:45 AM
yeah... nice couple of kick backs... pretty sad...

Action Jackson
12-01-2008, 12:52 AM
It will go to Morea and his cronies for their housing redevelopments.

fast_clay
12-01-2008, 01:27 AM
tennis is such a great sport to embezzle money....

Action Jackson
12-01-2008, 03:24 AM
Juan Monaco - What did you think of the national tennis structure ?

- I didn't see the support that I should have. I am completely against the Association Argentina of Tennis (AAT). To me, at the time, they told me that they were going to help me with a team of high performance coaches and they never called me. It was all for Coria and Nalbandian. This is what they caused and they didn't even help Chucho and it crashed. I never felt supported by the AAT, when I believe I should have been helped, because I was one of the better players in my category. The AAT didn't have a good structure and I had to go to Spain.

scoobs
12-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Why is it that the AAT sounds just like the LTA? They have completely the opposite problem, and yet the players from both countries think they're useless :)

Action Jackson
12-16-2008, 01:01 PM
scoobs, the main difference between the LTA and the AAT is that Argentina has produced a greater amount of good players in recent times.

Hendu
12-16-2008, 09:52 PM
Well, the players will be EVEN HAPPIER with the AAT.

Modesto Vazquez will be the captain of the Davis Cup team and Rivera the subcaptain. The opinion of the players wasn't taken into account. It was public they wanted Jaite.

I'm planning to go to a press conference of the AAT, to throw my shoes at Morea. Anyone want to join me?


We will see whats the players reaction...

Action Jackson
12-16-2008, 11:52 PM
This is going to be a very interesting development.

The AAT want stooges in there.

scoobs
12-17-2008, 12:26 AM
scoobs, the main difference between the LTA and the AAT is that Argentina has produced a greater amount of good players in recent times.
Ha. Fair point.

Hendu
12-17-2008, 01:27 AM
This is going to be a very interesting development.

The AAT want stooges in there.

Nothing against Vazquez, who was captain of the Argentine team for a couple of years in the 80's. Or Rivera, who has a good relationship with the players.

Jaite, who looked sad after knowing he wasn't going to be the captain, said Vazquez was the best DC captain he has played for.

But the thing is that the players opinion is what matters. The key for a Captain to do well, is being able to get along with all the players, and the players' coaches. The players opinion should be decisive. This is the Davis Cup, not the National futbol team.

Action Jackson
07-06-2009, 02:00 PM
The golden Argentine generation has pretty much gone or on the way out.

del Potro is going to have to shoulder the responsibility now. Nalbandian, not sure how he will be, when he comes back from the hip surgery. He might come back with a different view on things, then there might be more of the same.

Leo Mayer has developed very well this season, he has a big serve and forehand, has the game to do well on the hardcourts as well. He has made the DC squad, but that is more due to a lack of other viable options as well.

Schwank has lost his way and the racquet change has not helped him at all.

Action Jackson
08-29-2009, 02:02 PM
reminds me of australia 1990 vs 2000...

town of 3000... clay courts...

5 divisions... 8 teams in divsion... 12 minimum in a team...

30+ courts used incorporating 3 sattelite villages...


then.. there was nothing...

Yes, they have really fucked that up in Australia and they are trying to play catch up and alienated former players who want to help, as they aren't toeing the official line.

mgorganchian
08-29-2009, 10:33 PM
The golden Argentine generation has pretty much gone or on the way out.

del Potro is going to have to shoulder the responsibility now. Nalbandian, not sure how he will be, when he comes back from the hip surgery. He might come back with a different view on things, then there might be more of the same.

Leo Mayer has developed very well this season, he has a big serve and forehand, has the game to do well on the hardcourts as well. He has made the DC squad, but that is more due to a lack of other viable options as well.

Schwank has lost his way and the racquet change has not helped him at all.

Hopefully in 2011 we will have the two Dels... Del Potro and Del Bonis!!!

Action Jackson
03-14-2010, 08:52 AM
There is an article on the costs of being on tour, and this one explains it quite well especially at the early stages where one needs a sponsor initially to get to play the tournaments. This is even more important for players from places without powerful federations.

Action Jackson
06-20-2010, 06:41 PM
Hopefully in 2011 we will have the two Dels... Del Potro and Del Bonis!!!

del Potro might be fit by then and del Bonis is progressing nicely.

Action Jackson
05-15-2011, 08:40 AM
It's funny as much as the players get called mugs on here, the majority that turn pro don't make that cash out of the game.

The ones that make it without a powerful federation or IMG to give them wild cards more power to them.

jmf07
05-15-2011, 09:01 AM
Would would be the average break even point for full time players on the challenger/futures tour going it alone without any assistance from the national federation or sponsors? Would in excess of $125,000 be a reasonable guess?

Action Jackson
05-15-2011, 02:44 PM
If they make 200K in the year, then they have done well.

fran70
12-29-2011, 11:20 PM
I was quite surprised to read that Bogomolov Jr had real financial troubles to make a life on the Challenger tour. Losing in the first two rounds doesnt help that much but... The ones that can make it on the top 200 can have a descent life. For the ones that tend to follow this tour. Players like Berlocq have more than a descent life combining some Challenger events and ATP too. Do you believe that things are that tough as Bogolomov Jr mentioned? would like to hear your opinions.

Hewitt =Legend
12-30-2011, 12:47 AM
Each player will be different with their personal lives off the court as well. I remember Boggo went through a divorce a few years ago and has a kid to support from that marriage. Then there is the scheduling, some players travel more than others and the obviously if your're losing in the opening rounds then you're not breaking even.

Then there is the fact that it is definitely is not enough to set you up for life after tennis, so many of the guys are doing some studying on the side which again costs money.

So, bottom line is everyone is different but one thing is for certain: It's a tough struggle on the challenger tour.

Capuccino
12-30-2011, 12:51 AM
tennis players have many expenses...couches, preparations, tickets, hotels...it's not like they're having a wonderful life...maybe only top 50 players can say they have left something for their children...

Action Jackson
12-30-2011, 01:26 AM
This is an old article, but it has still has some relevant points.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/tennis/long-hard-road-to-the-top-in-tennis/2006/01/13/1137118971724.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Long, hard road to the top in tennis
January 14, 2006

While the top-ranked players live in opulence, for others on the way up life is darkened by cheap hotels, tortuous bus rides and cheap air fares. World No. 144 Peter Luczak tells what it takes to make it to the professional tennis circuit.

NO. 144 is not a stratospheric world ranking, but it does mean that Peter Luczak qualifies for more comfortable digs when he dances around a tennis court. It was not always so.

The life of a tennis journeyman is one darkened by cheap hotels, tortuous bus rides and — if he hits the jackpot — a cheap air fare as he takes his first, tentative steps on the pro circuit. Luczak remembers his first six months on the satellite tennis circuit during a break from college in the United States — where he had a tennis scholarship.

Small towns were a speciality and there was a bonus if you got a billet with a local family. Redding, California; Joplin, Missouri; Waco, Texas. "Yes, they have a tournament there," he says. "I think it was quite well run.

"You'd get a little bit scared when you'd come in at night to those towns, though. The Greyhound bus stations always used to be in the ghetto area. I remember one place called the Nash Hotel. It was a nightmare, pretty much everyone in there was a drug addict."

Scoring a bed for the night could turn out to be as competitive as playing a tennis match. "About five or six guys usually shared a room. At night we'd do the rock, paper scissors to see who would get a bed.

"The rules were, if you won (the tennis) that day you qualified to play. If you lost that day, you were automatically sleeping on the floor — you could not even qualify for the rock, paper, scissors game."

Five years on, Luczak, who has a wildcard to play in the Australian Open next week, is in more salubrious quarters. It's not five-star, but he is renting a comfortable apartment in Richmond with his friend, Stephen Huss, the doubles specialist who won an unlikely Wimbledon title last year.

At 26, Luczak has yet to win any titles. He achieved his best result in February last year, reaching the semi-final in an Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) tour event in Brazil. For that he achieved a lofty ranking of 110.

"That was great — I was on top of the world," Luczak says. "Every year, I've slowly got better. At the end of 2003, I was 170. Then in 2004, I was about 150. At the start I made bigger leaps. Now, I'm slightly improving my rankings … My goal is to be in the top 100 this year."

Twenty-six. For many people, that's the age you are getting started. Finished university, first serious job. More than a few of your peers are probably still living at home — you are part of a famously postponed generation.

At 26 on the tennis circuit, you are entering the mature phase of your career. Almost an old man of tennis: make or break time. World No. 1 Roger Federer is 25. Australian Lleyton Hewitt is 24. American Andy Roddick is 23. "I am a late bloomer," says Luczak, who started out hitting nets down the street in suburban Mulgrave, where he grew up.

Luczak's route was the familiar Aussie one: McDonald's Cup, the state junior squad in his early teens … Then he flunked out. Dropped from the state team before his mid-teens after a slump.

He was sustained, however, by supportive parents — the opposite of the pushy, tennis-parent kind, he says. His parents, Eva and Kris, left Warsaw in 1980 when he was nine months old. They were determined to give their children every opportunity, even if that meant his mother had to work for a time as cleaner in a city hotel and his father, an engineer, took a job as a courier driver. "Dad was always driving me to tournaments and encouraging me, but if I didn't want to play he was fine. Both my parents were pretty sporty. My older sister and I were pretty competitive with each other, and we'd go and play tennis after school."

An inner calm, perhaps modelled on his childhood tennis hero Mats Wilander, also helped shape Luczak's attitudes to life and sport. Early failure was not a setback. "I just loved the way Wilander played. He was always very calm on the court. I just liked his attitude."

His Swedish partner, Katarina, is expecting their first child and he is feeling buoyant as he approaches another Open campaign. It will be his sixth go. In the last two attempts he did not get past the first round. In 2003, he went as far as the third — a career highlight.

Last year, despite, his best-ever ranking, he did not progress much in the US or French opens either. As a clay court specialist, he did not qualify for Wimbledon. Grass remains anathema — but despite the tennis nay-sayers, his age is not a problem.

"Age is almost irrelevant," Luczak says. "It's how you are feeling, how you are enjoying it and how you are motivated. I know I am 26, but I still feel like I am new and young and eager to get out there.

"I have a baby on the way, and I am really motivated now. I am working extra hard in the gym and in the tennis court."

At 6-7, 7-6, 7-6 on Wednesday, it was universally acknowledged that Luczak had fluffed it. He seemed poised to claim a quarter-final berth in the Sydney International — indeed, there were two match points his way — but he was vanquished by Igor Andreev, ranked 26th in the world.

He lacks the killer instinct, some of his critics — and even friends — say. "A lot of guys say I'm too nice, 'you need to get a bit of aggro in you'."

Whether it's world rankings or scores at the end of hard-fought matches, Luczak always inhabits a numbers game. He picks a mix of satellite and more senior tournaments year-round to get the right calculus of earnings — to make a living — and ATP points — to advance in the tennis rankings.

"It's a strategic game, you need to mix up challengers (lesser matches) and ATP tournaments. In challengers there is less money but it's easier to win points to inch up the rankings," he says.

"Right now I've got about 300 ATP points. Lleyton probably has about 3000 or 4000 and Federer has got about 5000 points."

Although he is a regular practice partner for Hewitt and played the Davis Cup last year (another close loss), Luczak is a pragmatist. He does not cast himself as a giant killer on the tennis circuit. He knows the depth of the talent.

"You'd obviously love to be No. 1. Realistically, I don't see myself as No. 1.

"I'd say guys in the top 10 are in a class of their own — especially Roger Federer and Lleyton. But between the ranking of 10 and 150, there can be upsets."

With his wildcard, he will be looking for that upset now.

Back in January 2001, he was fighting for his tennis credentials at the Australian Open qualifying round — his debut at a Grand Slam. "I remember I started off well," recalls Luczak. "I won the first set, lost the second one and it was starting to get dark — it was 9pm or 9.30pm but it was a good atmosphere as I had a lot of friends and family there. I ended up losing 8-6 in the third set."

It was the first taste of a big tournament. This time, he was not staying in a cheap hotel but with his parents at the family home.

At the tennis, everything was a revelation, including the camaraderie of the locker room."You could get free deodorants and shampoos. You could get free drinks out of the fridge and you could get massages and there were cars picking you up, dropping you to and from the courts.

"My parents were driving me in. People were telling me 'why are you driving in, you can get a lift'. I don't think I found that out until after I lost. But I learnt quite quickly after that."

The next year, after deferring his studies in finance (there are still two semesters to go before he gets a degree), there was a summons to be a practice partner for the David Cup round played in Argentina.

"The first day I go there, we went to this expensive restaurant and Davis Cup captain John Fitzgerald said: 'Have whatever you want.' I was ordering the cheapest thing on the menu, though. I didn't realise at the end of the night they pay for it. After that, I was getting the steaks."

To date, Luczak's career earnings are $US250,000 ($A333,000). It's not enough to have the mansions and expensive sports cars his friend Lleyton commands, but it's enough for steak dinners, decent digs and the general expenses of life on the circuit. For the past two years, Luczak has also employed a personal coach, although that relationship recently ended amicably. He also has sponsors who help him out by providing tennis attire — he goes through a pair of shoes a week — and equipment.

While his family and friends will come to cheer him next week, there are no tennis groupies who will flock to his court. "Guys around my ranking wouldn't see too many groupies," laughs Luczak. "I think in Japan there was one lady who was a bit keen on me. When I was catching the bus to the airport, she was trying to give me a box of chocolates."

fran70
12-30-2011, 01:53 AM
This is a great article AJ. I saw him playing with Tipsy the quallies of the ATP Buenos Aires some years ago and I exchanged some words with him where I mentioned him how similar his game was to Wilander`s one where he smiled ironically. Nice guy.

Action Jackson
12-30-2011, 01:58 AM
The comments at the start are still relevant. Gaudio had to fight to play events when Gumy gave him a loan.

Most of the old Argentine players had to do it. Calleri had to work in the parents shop to get enough to travel to events outside of South America.