Ferrer's career trajectory [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Ferrer's career trajectory

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:23 PM
http://i.imgur.com/YlN7PIl.png

What do people make of this? Hopefully we can get beyond "weak/strong era" debates :lol: :yawn:

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 12:25 PM
As he aged he improved.

As he improved his seeding got higher and he played a higher seed later in the event.

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:29 PM
As he aged he improved.

As he improved his seeding got higher and he played a higher seed later in the event.

What changed between 2009-10 and 2011? His serve has improved over the years but not enough to make such a big difference. :shrug:

ProdigyEng
03-30-2013, 12:30 PM
Must've quit chain smoking in 2010.

BroTree123
03-30-2013, 12:30 PM
As he aged, he became more of a vulture.

n8
03-30-2013, 12:30 PM
Ferrer always receives my up most respect. At 30, he has essentially perfected the art of grinding and has reaped the benefits. Three Grand Slam semi-finals from the last four is outstanding.

GSMnadal
03-30-2013, 12:31 PM
He got more consistent and perfected his vulture strategy

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:31 PM
Ferrer always receives my up most respect. At 30, he has essentially perfected the art of grinding and has reaped the benefits. Three Grand Slam semi-finals from the last four is outstanding.

And to be fair to him, he was very close to going two sets up against Murray on grass in the one slam of the last four he didn't make the semis.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 12:31 PM
What changed between 2009-10 and 2011? His serve has improved over the years but not enough to make such a big difference. :shrug:

His seed in big events.

Chris Kuerten
03-30-2013, 12:31 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

He got better with age, /thread. Although he hasn't lost in the first round of a slam since 2005, while playing them all :worship:

BroTree123
03-30-2013, 12:32 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

He got better with age, /thread. Although he hasn't lost in the first round of a slam since 2005, while playing them all :worship:

Nice jinx. Now watch him crash out in R1 in one of the remaining 3 slams this year :o

Fed fordawin
03-30-2013, 12:33 PM
Weak era.

TBkeeper
03-30-2013, 12:34 PM
Honestly ... without this dull non-existent era bullshit.
I think Ferrer was alot faster when he was 23-25 (2005-2007) Dunno... I don't see any other difference.

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 12:35 PM
Won few MM's at the start of 2010 = top 15 = easy first rounds at clay Masters cause he was seeded\ Federer illness and Djokovic troubles untill clay season in 2010 = top-10 = high-seeded at tournaments like Beijing and Valencia = vulturing at that tournaments = top-8 = got Raonic at 4R in AO = Q\F with injured Nadal = KEEP PLACE IN RANKS TO VULTURE EVERYWHERE as highest-ranked player to join another MM's 250 or 500 = VULTURED IT AND KEPT rankings= Such a chokers like Almagro and Tipsarevic at Q\F and injured Rafa = top-4 = if Djok\fed\Murray lost at early rounds, great chance to met Melzer, Haas, Llodra, Janowicz at late stages of Masters...
WOW, what a fantastic vulture he is.

Federer in 2
03-30-2013, 12:36 PM
SF SF SF F this year
F W F F in 2014
W W W W in 2015

Chris Kuerten
03-30-2013, 12:39 PM
SF SF SF F this year
F W F F in 2014
W W W W in 2015
This seems really plausible, IMO :shrug:

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:42 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

He got better with age, /thread. Although he hasn't lost in the first round of a slam since 2005, while playing them all :worship:

You are a suspicious man :lol: Why are you so hilariously defensive about Ferrer?

It's interesting to discuss/think about because it's such a unique trajectory for a tennis player. Especially in this day and age.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 12:44 PM
You are a suspicious man :lol: Why are you so hilariously defensive about Ferrer?

It's interesting to discuss/think about because it's such a unique trajectory for a tennis player. Especially in this day and age.

Not really. Andy Murray follows a similar pattern.

TBkeeper
03-30-2013, 12:45 PM
Won few MM's at the start of 2010 = top 15 = easy first rounds at clay Masters cause he was seeded\ Federer illness and Djokovic troubles untill clay season in 2010 = top-10 = high-seeded at tournaments like Beijing and Valencia = vulturing at that tournaments = top-8 = got Raonic at 4R in AO = Q\F with injured Nadal = KEEP PLACE IN RANKS TO VULTURE EVERYWHERE as highest-ranked player to join another MM's 250 or 500 = VULTURED IT AND KEPT rankings= Such a chokers like Almagro and Tipsarevic at Q\F and injured Rafa = top-4 = if Djok\fed\Murray lost at early rounds, great chance to met Melzer, Haas, Llodra, Janowicz at late stages of Masters...
WOW, what a fantastic vulture he is.

Hahahaha it's funny. But it really is as you say :haha: :superlol: I guess some players are just luckier than others. I wish Davy hadn't injured himself the beggining of 2010 cause HE jumped from 6th to 5th Without playing after february till June ! and 2009 he missed the first third of the season ... so he could've gained a lot of points thus entering maybe top 4 ... and from there on ... different seedings , everything is different. But that just further confirmes my moto: Everything interferes and changes directly or indirectly everything. LITERALY !

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:45 PM
Not really. Andy Murray follows a similar pattern.

What? :lol: That makes zero sense.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 12:45 PM
Werner Eschauer did as well, he just didn't have the talent that a Ferrer has, so his ordeal left him with worse results, but very similar career path.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 12:47 PM
What? :lol: That makes zero sense.

Well Murray did poorly in grand slams at the start of his career, but as he aged he got better.

Then he got higher seeds in bigger events and didn't face the top players until later (Federer).

And then as top players started going down (Federer), he started to do even better and win.

This sounds the same to me.

Chris Kuerten
03-30-2013, 12:47 PM
You are a suspicious man :lol: Why are you so hilariously defensive about Ferrer?

It's interesting to discuss/think about because it's such a unique trajectory for a tennis player. Especially in this day and age.
I just go with the flow of the haters, if they are more vocal I will defend him more aggressively, you're free to ignore me if it isn't justified ;)

Abel
03-30-2013, 12:54 PM
I just go with the flow of the haters, if they are more vocal I will defend him more aggressively, you're free to ignore me if it isn't justified ;)

I'm not a hater of Ferrer by any means. The only top player that I come close to hating is Murray but I find him amusing off the court even if he's obnoxious on it.

And, apart from anything else, I wanted to discuss Ferrer. :shrug: There's no need to be so reductive. There's a mid-ground between fanboyishness and hater when it comes to players.

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 12:57 PM
Hahahaha it's funny. But it really is as you say :haha: :superlol: I guess some players are just luckier than others. I wish Davy hadn't injured himself the beggining of 2010 cause HE jumped from 6th to 5th Without playing after february till June ! and 2009 he missed the first third of the season ... so he could've gained a lot of points thus entering maybe top 4 ... and from there on ... different seedings , everything is different. But that just further confirmes my moto: Everything interferes and changes directly or indirectly everything. LITERALY !

2010 was :facepalm:
Davy, Del Potro, Nalba injured, A-Rod declines, for Gonzo it was last season.
Federer and Djokovic was at shittest form of his life during the most part of the season.

n8
03-30-2013, 12:58 PM
Won few MM's at the start of 2010 = top 15 = easy first rounds at clay Masters cause he was seeded\ Federer illness and Djokovic troubles untill clay season in 2010 = top-10 = high-seeded at tournaments like Beijing and Valencia = vulturing at that tournaments = top-8 = got Raonic at 4R in AO = Q\F with injured Nadal = KEEP PLACE IN RANKS TO VULTURE EVERYWHERE as highest-ranked player to join another MM's 250 or 500 = VULTURED IT AND KEPT rankings= Such a chokers like Almagro and Tipsarevic at Q\F and injured Rafa = top-4 = if Djok\fed\Murray lost at early rounds, great chance to met Melzer, Haas, Llodra, Janowicz at late stages of Masters...
WOW, what a fantastic vulture he is.

I made a thread to appreciate this fine art. He sure makes the most of his chances.

rocketassist
03-30-2013, 01:00 PM
Not really. Andy Murray follows a similar pattern.

Nah not really, Murray at 21 in 2008 with a Slam final and 2 TMS titles had a superior career to what Ferrer has now.

pierricbross
03-30-2013, 01:01 PM
Many of the good players have declined/retired since 2010, so Ferrer has been able to do much better. All credit to him to stay fit and hungry long enough to take advantage.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 01:08 PM
Nah not really, Murray at 21 in 2008 with a Slam final and 2 TMS titles had a superior career to what Ferrer has now.

Yes, Murray had a better result, if you are looking for the same round of each grand slam, you will never find it. But in 2007 Ferrer had a SF at the US Open, comparable result.

Ferrer has played 709 matches.
Murray has played 518 matches - two seasons less of matches.

So Ferrer had an abnormal result one tennis year before Murray did and neither took off to their peak until the last two years.

Now take into account that Murray was a top junior (97 matches) and Ferrer was not (7 matches) and it becomes clear that both players had played a similar number of matches (junior and pro) before their first breakthrough in 2007 and 2008, and also they have played similar number of matches until reaching their peak in 2011 to 2013.

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 01:15 PM
I made a thread to appreciate this fine art. He sure makes the most of his chances.

His H2H from 2010 ag TOP-4\before:
Federer 0-5\0-10
Nadal 3-9\1-9
Djokovic 4-5\1-7
Murray 1-1\4-5 (3 on clay, 2 ag. injured Murray)

Of course, he take his chances, when his main target is to grind past Mezler, Haas, llodra, injured Murray.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 01:17 PM
His H2H from 2010 ag TOP-4\before:
Federer 0-5\0-10
Nadal 3-9\1-9
Djokovic 4-5\1-7
Murray 1-1\4-5 (3 on clay, 2 ag. injured Murray)

Of course, he take his chances, when his main target is to grind past Mezler, Haas, llodra, injured Murray.

Of course, and what is wrong with beating all the players ranked below you very consistently. Doesn't that mean that you are ranked in the correct spot?

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 01:25 PM
Of course, and what is wrong with beating all the players ranked below you very consistently. Doesn't that mean that you are ranked in the correct spot?

Yup, but if number 4 shows worst competiton in H2H agaisnt higher-ranked players in whole top-10. Is that ranking correct?

Chris Kuerten
03-30-2013, 01:26 PM
Why are some people acting like he should bring it to the top 4? They are all 5 years younger and play a similar grinding game while being 10 cm taller. Then you have Federer of course, who is a terrible match-up for him and arguably the best player ever. You can't compare Ferrer with these guys.

Chris Kuerten
03-30-2013, 01:28 PM
Yup, but if number 4 shows worst competiton in H2H agaisnt higher-ranked players in whole top-10. Is that ranking correct?
That's not true, he had the best combined H2H against the top 4 of the top 10. It just looks really bad when he's off.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 01:34 PM
Yup, but if number 4 shows worst competiton in H2H agaisnt higher-ranked players in whole top-10. Is that ranking correct?

Yes, he is supposed to beat players ranked lower. Rankings are not who has the best chance of beating the number 1, they are ranked who has the best chance of beating all players ranked below. The number 1 should beat the 2, 3, 4 etc. Number 2 should beat 3, 4, 5 etc and lose to number 1. And so on.

Ferrer does that.

H2H with #6 Berdych - 7 - 3
H2H with #7 Del Potro - 6 - 2
H2H with #8 Tsonga - 3 - 1
H2H with #9 Gasquet - 8 - 1
H2H with #10 Tipseravic - 5 - 1

H2H with players ranked in the top ten, but below Ferrer is 29 - 8

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 01:37 PM
That's not true, he had the best combined H2H against the top 4 of the top 10. It just looks really bad when he's off.

I posted his H2H history previously on this thread.
Ferrer in the past was bad match-up for Djokovic, especially at clay. But in last three years (his rising period) he only once beat Nadal and Djokovic. I'm sure you remember that matches :tennis:
Clayrray is a shitty claycourter specialist, even Monaco is better on clay.

Even Tipsarevic won two times agaisnt Tankovic and played 5-setter with Monoderer :superlol:

Newcomer
03-30-2013, 01:48 PM
Yes, he is supposed to beat players ranked lower. Rankings are not who has the best chance of beating the number 1, they are ranked who has the best chance of beating all players ranked below. The number 1 should beat the 2, 3, 4 etc. Number 2 should beat 3, 4, 5 etc and lose to number 1. And so on.

Ferrer does that.

H2H with #6 Berdych - 7 - 3
H2H with #7 Del Potro - 6 - 2
H2H with #8 Tsonga - 3 - 1
H2H with #9 Gasquet - 8 - 1
H2H with #10 Tipseravic - 5 - 1

H2H with players ranked in the top ten, but below Ferrer is 29 - 8

I know that. Also i know he had never beat Berd\Tsonga\Delpo at any ATP final or masters s\f. 2-1 at GS.

Tipsarevic and Gasquet are his beta-versions - mini-vultures :)

misty1
03-30-2013, 02:09 PM
Yup, but if number 4 shows worst competiton in H2H agaisnt higher-ranked players in whole top-10. Is that ranking correct?

technically it is. because of the guy always or almost always loses to the guys ranked above him but then always or almost always beats the guys ranked beloew him than his ranking is correct.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 02:24 PM
technically it is. because of the guy always or almost always loses to the guys ranked above him but then always or almost always beats the guys ranked beloew him than his ranking is correct.

Yup. Exactly.

Sri
03-30-2013, 02:25 PM
Explanation 1: Weak era
Explanation 2: Slow courts help him
Explanation 3: That which can't be mentioned without definitive, conclusive proof

Lopez
03-30-2013, 02:27 PM
Ferrer was a top player already in 2007-2008, then he lost some form and gained it back in 2010-2011.

bouncer7
03-30-2013, 02:46 PM
Really great trajectory. He is peaking in the strongest era ever, he will be remembered.

On the other hand noone will remember transitional champs like Fedmug and Hewitt very soon, thanx God.

romismak
03-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Ferrer is arguably better than he was 3-4 years ago, but i think a lot of his success had to do with his ranking- seeding in tournaments, he is beating guys bellow him - he is consistent, basically once you are there 5-8 you can stay there unless you are injured, he is there since 2010. Berdych is also staying there, Delpo or Soderling loose their places, because of injury. Ferrer in 2009 ended outside top 10, but i don´t hink he become much better in 2010-11, maybe his serve and is even more consistent than before. But honestly once you are 5-8 seeded and are you healthy it is difficult for guys outside top 10 perform better at top events than you.

Federer-Fan
03-30-2013, 09:00 PM
Yes, he is supposed to beat players ranked lower. Rankings are not who has the best chance of beating the number 1, they are ranked who has the best chance of beating all players ranked below. The number 1 should beat the 2, 3, 4 etc. Number 2 should beat 3, 4, 5 etc and lose to number 1. And so on.

Ferrer does that.

H2H with #6 Berdych - 7 - 3
H2H with #7 Del Potro - 6 - 2
H2H with #8 Tsonga - 3 - 1
H2H with #9 Gasquet - 8 - 1
H2H with #10 Tipseravic - 5 - 1

H2H with players ranked in the top ten, but below Ferrer is 29 - 8

Ferrer leads just 2-1 against Tsonga. And Jo-W won their only Grand Slam meeting in straight sets.

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 09:05 PM
Ferrer leads just 2-1 against Tsonga. And Jo-W won their only Grand Slam meeting in straight sets.

Well I counted the Mutabala World Tennis Championship in Dubai by mistake.

Ferrer has wins on clay, hard and indoor hard. Tsonga has a win on grass. Total sets are 6 to 4 Ferrer, even with his three set loss.

GSMnadal
03-30-2013, 09:08 PM
Well I counted the Mutabala World Tennis Championship in Dubai by mistake.

Ferrer has wins on clay, hard and indoor hard. Tsonga has a win on grass. Total sets are 6 to 4 Ferrer, even with his three set loss.

So you admit it was a mistake counting it, yet continue to use it in the following stats?

BauerAlmeida
03-30-2013, 09:17 PM
Really great trajectory. He is peaking in the strongest era ever, he will be remembered.

On the other hand noone will remember transitional champs like Fedmug and Hewitt very soon, thanx God.

Definitely Federer was lucky to peak before the Ferrer era, if not he would be slamless one.

Vinceremo
03-30-2013, 09:20 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread?

He got better with age, /thread. Although he hasn't lost in the first round of a slam since 2005, while playing them all :worship:

indeed, it's that simple but who knows what he's trying to accomplish... discredit a bit, no? :shrug:

Honestly ... without this dull non-existent era bullshit.
I think Ferrer was alot faster when he was 23-25 (2005-2007) Dunno... I don't see any other difference.

really? his game has evolved a lot. he used to truly be 'weaponless' and merely rely on good stamina and consistency to outlast the majority of his opponents. as time went on he really became better everywhere, even speed and fitness-wise. of course, clearly, by 2007 these changes and improvements had already been developed and was easy to see how much more aggressive he could be with his groundstrokes (specially FH) while still being a wall on defense.

emotion
03-30-2013, 09:30 PM
Ferrer is arguably better than he was 3-4 years ago, but i think a lot of his success had to do with his ranking- seeding in tournaments, he is beating guys bellow him - he is consistent, basically once you are there 5-8 you can stay there unless you are injured, he is there since 2010. Berdych is also staying there, Delpo or Soderling loose their places, because of injury. Ferrer in 2009 ended outside top 10, but i don´t hink he become much better in 2010-11, maybe his serve and is even more consistent than before. But honestly once you are 5-8 seeded and are you healthy it is difficult for guys outside top 10 perform better at top events than you.

Ferrer was injured a lot in 2009. His serve sucks less, his backhand got deeper and forehand a bit bigger, overall more aggressive. That said, he's been significantly worse the last 6 months and his results are still improving. It's not his fault that everyone is really bad right now though :shrug:

Pirata.
03-30-2013, 10:09 PM
I know that. Also i know he had never beat Berd\Tsonga\Delpo at any ATP final or masters s\f. 2-1 at GS.

Yeah, probably because the three of them tend to lose to inferior players before they can make it to the latter stages to face Ferrer. How is this his fault? Tsonga and Berdych were on Murray's side, but Delpo, who should've been Ferrer's QF opponent, can't stay fit and crashed out in his first match. Are we now blaming Ferrer for the other three having poor fitness or losing to mugs?

Snowwy
03-30-2013, 10:16 PM
So you admit it was a mistake counting it, yet continue to use it in the following stats?

Mmhmm :haha: :)

So it should be 2-1 with sets being 4-3 for Ferrer.

Not sure I was thinking in that last post.

Chase Visa
03-31-2013, 05:11 AM
Improvement for 07-08 (his decline seemed more like a form slump), plus the field has gotten weaker.

Priam
03-31-2013, 06:42 AM
He became more of an all-court player in his later years! :eek:

MTwEeZi
03-31-2013, 07:06 AM
http://i.imgur.com/YlN7PIl.png

What do people make of this?

injured Nadal = Ferrer SF

jaymon112
03-31-2013, 08:34 AM
He still hasn't won a slam. LOL

Haelfix
03-31-2013, 11:00 AM
Ferrer was always good. But perhaps more than any other player, he has benefited from the slowing down of court conditions and the new heaviness of tennis balls. He is freakishly strong for a man that size, and his consistency has helped him achieve results that he didn't when he was younger (and he used to be faster)

Abel
03-31-2013, 12:25 PM
He still hasn't won a slam. LOL

He won't ever win a slam :shrug: That's not really the issue.

coolfish1103
03-31-2013, 12:28 PM
He still hasn't won a slam. LOL

MTF will probably crash on that day.

Han Solo
03-31-2013, 12:39 PM
Explanation 1: Weak era
Explanation 2: Slow courts help him
Explanation 3: That which can't be mentioned without definitive, conclusive proof

1) No such thing
2) Arguably helps all the top players now be more consistent across the range of surfaces. Not many serve volley players around now
3) :eek:

Abel
03-31-2013, 12:50 PM
Explanation 3: That which can't be mentioned without definitive, conclusive proof

http://i.imgur.com/kzKPj.png

BackhandDTL
03-31-2013, 07:15 PM
As he aged he improved.

As he improved his seeding got higher and he played a higher seed later in the event.

This was hardly the issue for him.

I won't bother to look it up right now, but look at his history at Roland Garros. Despite being a so-called "clay expert", he made the quarters just twice in the 00's, most often bowing out before the second week, and losing to players like Hildalgo and pre-'09 Verdasco.

I'm sure this is consistent across other surfaces.

HKz
03-31-2013, 07:18 PM
He was just out of it mentally during 2009 and 2010. I mean that match against Verdasco where he squandered a 2 sets to love lead against him at the USO pretty much sums up his mental state.

Ironically, both times he has gotten a run at the slams (post USO 2007 and post AO 2011) were spurred by a win over Rafa at those particular slam events.

philosophicalarf
03-31-2013, 07:31 PM
Ferrer was all over the place in 09/10.

To my mind, no discussion about his career is complete without the self-belief issue being mentioned. He's a strange combo, insanely driven, widely-known as the hardest worker around ..... yet always seemed lacking in confidence.

Also doesn't hurt that his serve is bigger now than it used to be.

HKz
03-31-2013, 07:38 PM
Ferrer was all over the place in 09/10.

To my mind, no discussion about his career is complete without the self-belief issue being mentioned. He's a strange combo, insanely driven, widely-known as the hardest worker around ..... yet always seemed lacking in confidence.

Also doesn't hurt that his serve is bigger now than it used to be.

Yes, pound for pound he has the biggest serve in the top 10. He has been serving extraordinarily huge for the past 2 years.

Surcouf
03-31-2013, 07:57 PM
Ferrer is really playing to get his rankings the highest possible. He literraly overplays, played 22 tournaments last year. He is hunting the small titles and his durability allow him to keep a constant level during the year. He is also a good opportunist, reaching the end of tournaments every time a good player in his draw fails.

But overall he isn't a better player than he was in 2007. Playing more, always keeping his level high, not taking risks and having a high seed allow him to go deep in almost all tournaments and to get more points that Del Potro, Berdych and the likes.

But he is even more completely totally dominated now against Federer, Djokovic and Nadal. That shows that his best level hasn't gone up at all.

Burrow
03-31-2013, 08:14 PM
Yes, pound for pound he has the biggest serve in the top 10. He has been serving extraordinarily huge for the past 2 years.

:lol:

Ziggy B
03-31-2013, 09:45 PM
Think he's marginally better, serve mainly.

He has had some good fortune though, coupled with his ridiculous work-rate have propelled him higher than maybe his talent would allow.

Still, don't like his playstyle but nothing but respect for the guy

jcempire
04-01-2013, 12:17 AM
What changed between 2009-10 and 2011? His serve has improved over the years but not enough to make such a big difference. :shrug:

big difference?

already big improve

"weak/strong era" debates
I like the words

jcempire
04-01-2013, 12:19 AM
Ferrer is really playing to get his rankings the highest possible. He literraly overplays, played 22 tournaments last year. He is hunting the small titles and his durability allow him to keep a constant level during the year. He is also a good opportunist, reaching the end of tournaments every time a good player in his draw fails.

But overall he isn't a better player than he was in 2007. Playing more, always keeping his level high, not taking risks and having a high seed allow him to go deep in almost all tournaments and to get more points that Del Potro, Berdych and the likes.

But he is even more completely totally dominated now against Federer, Djokovic and Nadal. That shows that his best level hasn't gone up at all.

you very right:worship:

Tag
04-01-2013, 12:19 AM
improved choice of doctors :shrug: