Can Nadal become Davis Cup GOAT? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Can Nadal become Davis Cup GOAT?

Sanya
09-16-2012, 04:55 PM
I mean quantaty of titles, not matches ratio W/L or simply wins.

Spain can win DC for fifth time with Rafa (2004, 2008, 2009, 2011) in the team. In Open Era record belongs to great team player John Mcenroe, he was part of US team in 1978-79, 1981-82 and 1992.

Though all-time record - Roy Emerson, 8 (!) victories due to his efforts too.

Untouchable?

Looner
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
No, he just takes advantage of the hard work of others.

GOATsol
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Anyone could do that if they had a team as good as Spain.

Action Jackson
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Pretty easy when you have such an excellent supporting cast.

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 04:57 PM
Fred Perry: 4 Wins. 2 Finals 34-4 record, pretty good also

Emerson though :eek:

Federer in 2
09-16-2012, 04:57 PM
Maybe, but it would be silly of him to try and focus his energy on DC. He has more important things to win.

Looner
09-16-2012, 04:58 PM
Maybe, but it would be silly of him to try and focus his energy on DC. He has more important things to win.

Like Mickey Carlo :D.

Sanya
09-16-2012, 05:00 PM
I know, the last thing I wanted to do is overestimating his role in these victories. He made his contribution, but not bigger than other.

That`s just numbers, I meant only this.

GOATsol
09-16-2012, 05:04 PM
So then why isn't another Spanish player also Davis Cup GOAT?

It's a team event. Spain can be the Davis Cup GOAT. Dull can't.

LeChuck
09-16-2012, 05:10 PM
Nadal has missed too many of Spain's away ties over the last few years to be in contention for the mantle of greatest Davis Cup player.

Also when comparing players' Davis Cup 'greatness', it's much better to look at their individual win-loss records in live rubbers, rather than how many titles they won.

Becker has won less Davis Cup titles than Nadal, but would anyone seriously label Nadal as the greater Davis Cup player out of the two?

duarte_a
09-16-2012, 05:17 PM
So then why isn't another Spanish player also Davis Cup GOAT?

It's a team event. Spain can be the Davis Cup GOAT. Dull can't.

This.

If nadal was doing a 2005 ljubicic, winning all the singles matches and playing on doubles then he could be singled out. But the truth is that what's happening is the opposite. nadal plays only a couple of matches in the finals and lets the team do the dirty work.

manadrainer
09-16-2012, 05:41 PM
No. He's taking advantage of a weak Davis cup era. ;)

MTwEeZi
09-16-2012, 05:43 PM
10 replies.. 10 Fedtards :haha: defensive much?

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 05:45 PM
10 replies.. 10 Fedtards :haha: defensive much?

http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net/image_cache/1313252592213621.gif

u call me fedtard? u bad man.

alneirh
09-16-2012, 05:45 PM
No, spanish davis cup GOAT is el Ferru

IOFH
09-16-2012, 05:52 PM
Was Nadal the only player to be part in all of these teams? And did he contribute the most during these years?

Sanya
09-16-2012, 06:07 PM
Was Nadal the only player to be part in all of these teams? And did he contribute the most during these years?

They are figures. I`ll write this word again, very slowly - f-i-g-u-r-e-s. In 30 years near his name in Wiki can be written "This guy was part of team which won DC X times. It`s a record for all players". Will it happen?

That`s all what I asked, nothing more.

Marcoo
09-16-2012, 06:11 PM
Nadal doesn't do much during Davis Cup, they win because they have a strong team, not just because they have Nadal ;)

IOFH
09-16-2012, 06:20 PM
They are figures. I`ll write this word again, very slowly - f-i-g-u-r-e-s. In 30 years near his name in Wiki can be written "This guy was part of team which won DC X times. It`s a record for all players". Will it happen?

That`s all what I asked, nothing more.

I was just asking because I don't know. If someone else filled both parts he's greater than Nadal in DC.

Corey Feldman
09-16-2012, 06:23 PM
Fred Perry: 4 Wins. 2 Finals 34-4 record, pretty good also

Britain >>> Spain

rocketassist
09-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Ljubo's effort in 05 is GOAT-worthy.

Sanya
09-16-2012, 06:26 PM
I was just asking because I don't know. If someone else filled both parts he's greater than Nadal in DC.

Ok, no offence. :)

Personally I consider Mcenroe to be DC GOAT even if Spain takes next 5 DC, but figures are figures. It depends how to count, can be done in different ways.

Ljubo's effort in 05 is GOAT-worthy.

Shouldn`t forget Ancic as well. The only team I can remember where really only two players took points all the year and won the title. Without one of them Croatia would be doomed. Stepanek and Berdych can repeat their feat.

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 06:26 PM
Britain >>> Spain

naturally :)

no doubt after 2013 calender grand slam Murray will win Davis Cup for Scotland 5 times in a row

rocketassist
09-16-2012, 06:30 PM
Shouldn`t forget Ancic as well. The only team I can remember where really only two players took points all the year and won the title. Without one of them Croatia would be doomed. Stepanek and Berdych can repeat their feat.

Ancic did OK but he lost most of his singles matches in the run, the only one he won IIRC was the last rubber against Mertinak. He still teamed up well for the doubles but Ljubo was definitely the main man.

Looner
09-16-2012, 07:13 PM
I just read a very poignant tweet on this same topic. Spain are in the final with RN having NOT played a single match. I wonder if some here think Fed can afford the same luxury.

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 07:45 PM
You guys make it sound like he doesn't play a match and just shows up to take the glory. In 2008 he played quarters & semis and skipped the final.

He doesn't deserve credit that year either then :shrug:

Johnny Groove
09-16-2012, 07:48 PM
Nah, his record is insane, but he's not going to come close to some of the heroics of the older players.

selyoink
09-16-2012, 07:48 PM
Nadal is Davis Cup glory hog. Only shows up after the rest of the team made the finals and then steals someone elses spot for the final. Would expect nothing else from such a despicable person to be honest.

Plus he wasn't part of the team for the finals in 2008.

GSMnadal
09-16-2012, 07:50 PM
Nadal has a 20-1 record, only lost his first match as a kid, and already has 4 davis cups.

Name a player that can do better than that? If he didn't play, Spain usually got through, true. But when he plays, he ALWAYS wins. GOAT worthy stuff. And he isn't done yet.

selyoink
09-16-2012, 07:54 PM
Nadal has a 20-1 record, only lost his first match as a kid, and already has 4 davis cups.

Name a player that can do better than that? If he didn't play, Spain usually got through, true. But when he plays, he ALWAYS wins. GOAT worthy stuff. And he isn't done yet.

Typically no shows away ties to avoid losing off of clay. Smart lad Nadal.

Slasher1985
09-16-2012, 07:56 PM
I don't know if Nadal can ever achieve Pietrangeli's or Borg's records in the Davis Cup.

http://www.daviscup.com/en/history/records.aspx

GOATsol
09-16-2012, 07:56 PM
Nadal has a 20-1 record, only lost his first match as a kid, and already has 4 davis cups.

Name a player that can do better than that? If he didn't play, Spain usually got through, true. But when he plays, he ALWAYS wins. GOAT worthy stuff. And he isn't done yet.
Except he only plays at home.

He doesn't show up, Spain still wins.

Slasher1985
09-16-2012, 07:58 PM
20-1 doesn't compare with

Longest singles winning streak

- 33: Bjorn Borg (SWE), 1973-80

or

Most rubbers won

- 120: Nicola Pietrangeli (ITA)

selyoink
09-16-2012, 07:59 PM
Nadal has only three hard court wins in Davis Cup against Kiefer, O. Rochus and Bemelmans. GOAT worthy stuff.

If the tie isn't on clay you can count Nadal out.

BigJohn
09-16-2012, 08:01 PM
Some Nadal fans are getting greedy. Nadal already overachieved by achieving clay GOATness and a career slam*.

GSMnadal
09-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Typically no shows away ties to avoid losing off of clay. Smart lad Nadal.

Except he only plays at home.

He doesn't show up, Spain still wins.

He played 7 matches away from home :shrug:

He plays more at home, but still, it's not like he's never played away.

rocketassist
09-16-2012, 08:03 PM
It is rather coincidental that away ties on quick courts he's nowhere to be found.

LeChuck
09-16-2012, 08:03 PM
Since Nadal started playing in the Davis Cup in 2004, Spain have played in 12 Davis Cup ties away from home, and Nadal has only appeared in 5 of them.

Since 2006, Spain have played in 9 ties away from home, and Nadal has only played in 2 of them, in Germany in 2008 and Belgium in 2011. He has been unavailable for all of Spain's genuinely difficult away ties, in the USA in 2007 and 2011, Argentina in 2008 and France in 2010.

I know that Nadal get's injured a lot and his injuries have often coincided with Spain's away ties, but a Davis Cup GOAT cannot have such a 'home tie dominated' record.

His withdrawal from Spain's QF against the US in Winston-Salem in 2007 was definitely fishy though. He withdrew despite continuing to play on in the Miami tournament, and Roddick was pretty surprised and annoyed when he found out. Had he played in the tie Spain probably still would have lost, given that Blake on hard courts was probably the single worst match-up for him at the time, and Roddick would have a good shot against the Nadal of 2007 on a fast indoor court.

Trollin Stone
09-16-2012, 08:04 PM
Nadal has only three hard court wins in Davis Cup against Kiefer, O. Rochus and Bemelmans. GOAT worthy stuff.

If the tie isn't on clay you can count Nadal out.

He has also a win over Stepanek on carpet in 2004, this is maybe the most important win in their 2004 run to the title, but yeah, agree with you

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 08:05 PM
He has also a win over Stepanek on carpet in 2004, this is maybe the most important win in their 2004 run to the title, but yeah, agree with you

what the frick was stepps doing :smash:

bad for Nadalhaters vcred if it turns out he is good on carpet as well as hard and grass :(

mooncreek
09-16-2012, 08:08 PM
Exactly why should Rafa be credited with this year's Davis Cup win? He hasn't even played this year - and I would figure the Czech Republic will pick hard court so he would likely not be there either.

TigerTim
09-16-2012, 08:10 PM
20-1 doesn't compare with

Longest singles winning streak

- 33: Bjorn Borg (SWE), 1973-80

or

Most rubbers won

- 120: Nicola Pietrangeli (ITA)

insane.

Sanya
09-16-2012, 08:12 PM
20-1 doesn't compare with

Longest singles winning streak

- 33: Bjorn Borg (SWE), 1973-80

or

Most rubbers won

- 120: Nicola Pietrangeli (ITA)

Borg was from another planet. I would give a lot to see him against Nadal at RG.

August
09-16-2012, 08:14 PM
"Can Nadal become Davis Cup GOAT?"

Quite difficult when you have opponents like USA with 32 titles and Australia/Australasia with 28.

Realistically, DC count isn't the main thing when thinking about who is DC GOAT player. What matters is that you've played your best tennis or even better when you really needed to. After taking a look at Rafa's DC finals, only his 04 win over Roddick looked specifically impressive. Yeah, it was on clay, but it was Rafa's biggest match in his career so far. Name DC matches Rafa really needed to win, i.e. 5th rubbers or 4th rubbers 1-2 down or in situations when Spain was likely to lose 5th rubber. Those rubbers, as well as must-win doubles rubbers and almost-must-win 2nd rubbers, are the rubbers that show who are the greatest DC players. And if somebody plays DC season with 8 singles win plus maybe four doubles win, that's a real GOAT performance.

Slasher1985
09-16-2012, 08:17 PM
[I]And if somebody plays DC season with 8 singles win plus maybe four doubles win, that's a real GOAT performance.

Yeah, 625 Davis Cup Rankings points. That's something I'm dying to see.:worship:

LeChuck
09-16-2012, 08:18 PM
That victory over Stepanek on fast taraflex carpet in Brno in 2004, in the decisive 5th rubber, at the age of 17, is Nadal's most impressive Davis Cup achievement in my opinion. That must have been one of the fastest surfaces he has ever set foot on as a pro, along with the carpet/proper indoor surfaces he played on at Lyon and Bercy (a qualifier) in 2003 and Basel in 2003 and 2004.

Still even amongst Spanish players, I would rank Ferrero (maybe I'm biased though as a fan of him) and Ferrer as greater Davis Cup servants for La Armada.

August
09-16-2012, 08:21 PM
Yeah, 625 Davis Cup Rankings points. That's something I'm dying to see.:worship:

Yeah, I noticed a certain Spaniard who's known at MTF for his willingness to get points, can't achieve that because he skipped R16.

Ash86
09-16-2012, 08:29 PM
That victory over Stepanek on fast taraflex carpet in Brno in 2004, in the decisive 5th rubber, at the age of 17, is Nadal's most impressive Davis Cup achievement in my opinion.

Agreed. Nadal's best contribution to Davis Cup was the 2004 campaign - only 17 and came up with the goods when it counted. Against Stepanek in an away ties and fifth rubber and then in the final vs Roddick. Yes it was clay and in Spain but given the context - 18 yr old Nadal, Roddick the world no.2 who'd schooled him in straights with bagels and breadsticks at the US Open just a few months ago, him being favoured over the more senior team member Fererro despite only being ranked in the fifties and therefore there being tension within the team (Nadal said to Moya he'd step aside if it was awkward and let JCF play) - it was a coming of age performance. He wasn't the clay GOAT he is now at that time and he delivered for his country.

After that he didn't prioritise DC and I don't blame him - for those players like Feliciano Lopez, Stepanek etc. who will not realistically compete for the slams or other big titles it makes sense to always play DC but for players like Nadal, DJokovic etc. they need to be careful with their schedule. Do think Davis Cup has been as good for his career as having him in the team has been for Spain - it helped in 2009 for him to end the year on a high after awful WTF and got Spain the win (not a given that Verdasco or Almagro would have beat Berdych); helped in 2011 to end the year on a high after a tough year in finals and especially to get that winning point in an epic battle with Del Potro - again both Ferrer and Nadal were needed in that tie.

If I was Nadal I wouldn't play any more Davis Cup - he's got 4, he ended on a high - winning the tie at home vs Del Potro - has never let the side down when competing when it mattered - why ruin that now? Let others have a chance - you can see how much it means to Almagro to get a chance; for Andujar to even be a sparring partner; for M. Lopez to be on the team - for those guys these are some of the best moments of their career. Let them have that and make a full time exit form Davis Cup as hinted last year...

LeChuck
09-16-2012, 08:37 PM
I'm no fan of Boom Boom Becker, but he was just in a beast in the Davis Cup.

He played in 33 live singles rubbers and won 31 of them on a variety of polarised surfaces, with victories over the likes of McEnroe, Wilander, Edberg, Agassi, Krajicek and Mecir. He was perfectly happy to play in away ties in Brazil and México as well.

He beat his great rival Edberg 3 times in Davis Cup finals in 1985, 1988 and 1989, crushing him badly in those last 2 matches.

Johnny Groove
09-16-2012, 08:45 PM
I'd say Roddick is more of a modern Davis Cup GOAT than Nadal is.

Roddick always played, home away, clay, grass, hard, he didn't give a shit.

atennisfan
09-16-2012, 10:46 PM
Hewitt is the Davis Cup GOAT.

He put his heart and everything for DC, and won DC without great supporting cast like Spain too.

atennisfan
09-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Nadal has a 20-1 record, only lost his first match as a kid, and already has 4 davis cups.

He has 3 Davis Cup (2004, 2009, 2011). He did not play in the 2008 DC final.

Name a player that can do better than that?.

Nicola Pietrangeli won a total of 120 Davis Cup matches. Beat that.

delpiero7
09-16-2012, 11:10 PM
He has also a win over Stepanek on carpet in 2004, this is maybe the most important win in their 2004 run to the title, but yeah, agree with you

LMFAO, wtf was Sexy playing at?!

Losing to 18yo Nadal at home in DC on a quick carpet court? :smash:

Judging by most of the replies in this thread, Nadal would have been more of a DC legend if he stopped playing in it after the 2004 victory rather than going on to win another 3 titles. Though TBF, for the last few years it has seemed as though he has been using DC finals as a source to vent his frustration at not winning anything after the end of August.

atennisfan
09-16-2012, 11:13 PM
His withdrawal from Spain's QF against the US in Winston-Salem in 2007 was definitely fishy though. He withdrew despite continuing to play on in the Miami tournament, and Roddick was pretty surprised and annoyed when he found out. Had he played in the tie Spain probably still would have lost, given that Blake on hard courts was probably the single worst match-up for him at the time, and Roddick would have a good shot against the Nadal of 2007 on a fast indoor court.


Wow. Didn't know this.

Nadal is surely GOAT.... at faking injuries.

paseo
09-16-2012, 11:42 PM
"Can Nadal become Davis Cup GOAT?"

Quite difficult when you have opponents like USA with 32 titles and Australia/Australasia with 28.

Realistically, DC count isn't the main thing when thinking about who is DC GOAT player. What matters is that you've played your best tennis or even better when you really needed to. After taking a look at Rafa's DC finals, only his 04 win over Roddick looked specifically impressive. Yeah, it was on clay, but it was Rafa's biggest match in his career so far. Name DC matches Rafa really needed to win, i.e. 5th rubbers or 4th rubbers 1-2 down or in situations when Spain was likely to lose 5th rubber. Those rubbers, as well as must-win doubles rubbers and almost-must-win 2nd rubbers, are the rubbers that show who are the greatest DC players. And if somebody plays DC season with 8 singles win plus maybe four doubles win, that's a real GOAT performance.

lol

Beating Roddick on clay is something special now, eh? And for Nadal to do it in Spain, nonetheless. Quite a feat, this.

n8
09-16-2012, 11:42 PM
I mean quantaty of titles, not matches ratio W/L or simply wins.

Spain can win DC for fifth time with Rafa (2004, 2008, 2009, 2011) in the team. In Open Era record belongs to great team player John Mcenroe, he was part of US team in 1978-79, 1981-82 and 1992.

Though all-time record - Roy Emerson, 8 (!) victories due to his efforts too.

Untouchable?

So, to clarify, the rules are that someone just has to play one live rubber in the whole Davis Cup year/tournament to be included as a Davis Cup champion for that year (assuming their team won the championship of course)? If so, Rafa should be able to take over McEnroe, especially if he plays a match in the final this year. Emerson is a long while off though.

TBkeeper
09-17-2012, 06:33 AM
NO .
Next

evilmindbulgaria
09-17-2012, 06:58 AM
Like Mickey Carlo :D.

Nope, like Turkeysizing his bitch :devil:

guga2120
09-17-2012, 07:49 AM
I doubt he will play in the final.

10 replies.. 10 Fedtards :haha: defensive much?

:lol:

Litotes
09-17-2012, 07:57 AM
:lol:

Are you laughing of the idea that Action Jackson and TigerTim should be fedtards, or his mathematical skills in presenting 8 forumers as 10?

Avi14
09-17-2012, 08:01 AM
Nah he won't be considered a DC GOAT.

One must admit that he did have a great team to help Spain win the DC.

Sophocles
09-17-2012, 11:18 AM
His record so far is stellar, even if - as others have pointed out - home/clay dominated. But he's not really close to McEnroe, Borg, or Becker yet.

TBkeeper
09-17-2012, 12:43 PM
Are you laughing of the idea that Action Jackson and TigerTim should be fedtards, or his mathematical skills in presenting 8 forumers as 10?

:worship: :spit: :superlol: :silly: Stop trolling him he'll die from :stupid:-ness

Slasher1985
09-17-2012, 12:45 PM
8 is 10 if you think about it... Base 8 conversion.;)

Litotes
09-17-2012, 12:52 PM
8 is 10 if you think about it... Base 8 conversion.;)

Sure enough, Slasher2481! ;)

Slasher1985
09-17-2012, 12:53 PM
Sure enough, Slasher2481! ;)

3701:D

Litotes
09-17-2012, 01:02 PM
3701:D

Of course. Way too long since I played with numbers this way....:scratch:

duong
09-17-2012, 02:47 PM
I know, the last thing I wanted to do is overestimating his role in these victories. He made his contribution, but not bigger than other.

That`s just numbers, I meant only this.

it's not just numbers : first you derive an individual performance from a team result, secondly you use the word "Goat" which is not a number.

If you want to talk about individual players who are real symbols of Davis cup and have done great performances in this competition, in the last 30 years, I can think of McEnroe or Becker for instance, and in "all times", there are many more greats in this competition which used to be the greatest one in tennis.

Nadal is a very special case comparing to these ones : he's the admiral of the country which has dominated world's tennis for 10 years, and even more he has managed to play nearly all his matches on clay and in Spain !! A surface where he hardly loses a set. It's nothing like the huge efforts which these players had to do.

Nadal has only played 4 singles in Davis cup outside of clay : two in his very first tie in 2004 in Czech Republic against Novak and Stepanek, one against Kiefer in 2008, and one against Bemelmans in 2011.

He has only played 27 rubbers in Davis cup, which is very little (Fed has played 58 ones, and many other ones have played that many matches).

Sanya
09-17-2012, 03:56 PM
So, to clarify, the rules are that someone just has to play one live rubber in the whole Davis Cup year/tournament to be included as a Davis Cup champion for that year (assuming their team won the championship of course)? If so, Rafa should be able to take over McEnroe, especially if he plays a match in the final this year. Emerson is a long while off though.

As I remember - yes. Maybe smth changed, but for me it`s fair. Everyone make their contribution. At OG in swimming, for example, participants of first rounds are given the medals as swimmers in the final as well, that`s I know for sure.

it's not just numbers : first you derive an individual performance from a team result, secondly you use the word "Goat" which is not a number.

If you want to talk about individual players who are real symbols of Davis cup and have done great performances in this competition, in the last 30 years, I can think of McEnroe or Becker for instance, and in "all times", there are many more greats in this competition which used to be the greatest one in tennis.

Nadal is a very special case comparing to these ones : he's the admiral of the country which has dominated world's tennis for 10 years, and even more he has managed to play nearly all his matches on clay and in Spain !! A surface where he hardly loses a set. It's nothing like the huge efforts which these players had to do.

Nadal has only played 4 singles in Davis cup outside of clay : two in his very first tie in 2004 in Czech Republic against Novak and Stepanek, one against Kiefer in 2008, and one against Bemelmans in 2011.

He has only played 27 rubbers in Davis cup, which is very little (Fed has played 58 ones, and many other ones have played that many matches).

Man, relax. :) I have already explained my point of view on one of the previous pages - you`ll find it if intresting. Actually I agree with everything you wrote from second passage. ;)

duong
09-17-2012, 04:16 PM
Man, relax. :) I have already explained my point of view on one of the previous pages - you`ll find it if intresting. Actually I agree with everything you wrote from second passage. ;)

I'm very relaxed, I just answered the quote I answered :shrug:

Corey Feldman
09-17-2012, 04:41 PM
why does 2008 count when he never played in the Final?

Mountaindewslave
09-17-2012, 04:49 PM
Pretty easy when you have such an excellent supporting cast.

please, Nadal has won many many crucial singles rubbers. certainly he got a bit lucky that Spain has such a wide array of players right now, but not everyone can handle pressure like he can on the big stage. due recall that while he has great teammates, he is often their lock win against the high seeds single rubber opponents.

Nadal is one of the best Davis Cup players, I mean look at his records there, sure he has had a great team but he wins an extraordinary amount in this format

IOFH
09-17-2012, 05:50 PM
So basically what people are saying Nadal's greatest achievement in DC is beating Stepanek? That should answer the OP.