federer's return of serve [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

federer's return of serve

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 05:21 AM
Does federer have the worst return of serve in the top 10 atleast. He just seems to block the serve and get it back into play. Is there some heavy spin to the return i am missing?
Djokovic and Murray really attack on their return.

Johnbert
07-26-2012, 05:31 AM
as long as tsonga is a top10 player, fed can't have the worst ros...

Slice Winner
07-26-2012, 05:42 AM
Based on full career, Fed is #6th out of the current top ten for returning first serves.
And 8th for 2nd serve (better than Tsonga and Tipsy).

Based on 2012, Fed is 7th of the current top ten for returning first serve (behind Tsonga!)
Bear in mind that most of the hardcourt season hasn't been played yet.
And for 2nd serve return, he is also 7th.

The players in the top 10 that are consistently ahead of Federer are return-oriented or defense-oriented players: Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Ferrer and Monaco.
Berdych is ahead in 2nd serve return as he is very good with that shot.

Another thing to note is how many tournaments people like Nadal, Ferrer and Monaco play on clay, which somewhat skews their return stats to the positive.

dazed1
07-26-2012, 05:57 AM
Delete.

dazed1
07-26-2012, 05:57 AM
The players in the top 10 that are consistently ahead of Federer are return-oriented or defense-oriented players: Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Ferrer and Monaco.


Ferer is not defensive player!

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 06:14 AM
Ferer is not defensive player!

Most spanish players, including ferrer are defensive players. But back to topic, why does federer merely block most serves? Does he put massive spin on it?

leng jai
07-26-2012, 06:17 AM
Most spanish players, including ferrer are defensive players. But back to topic, why does federer merely block most serves? Does he put massive spin on it?

Blocking big first serves with underspin has a far better chance of going in than driving them with topspin.

Asadinator
07-26-2012, 06:18 AM
Most spanish players, including ferrer are defensive players. But back to topic, why does federer merely block most serves? Does he put massive spin on it?

Too lazy. He never really attacks serves, sometimes he smashes a poor 2nd serve with his FH.

I just :spit: when he frames 2nd serve returns :superlol:

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 06:20 AM
Blocking big first serves with underspin has a far better chance of going in than driving them with topspin.

But why don't opponents just drive a huge forehand on his return? I mean the return seems slow enough for them to get into position.

leng jai
07-26-2012, 06:23 AM
But why don't opponents just drive a huge forehand on his return? I mean the return seems slow enough for them to get into position.

A lot of players do exactly what you say. Federer's blocks are usually deep so you have to hit a fairly risky shot to take full control of the point from there. A lot of single handers are lazy when returning serve on their backhand. Haas and Federer are both guilty at times of sitting back and slicing their returns even on second serves.

azinna
07-26-2012, 06:23 AM
It's a tactic he won a good number of his slams with. It worked quite well in '03-'07 for two reasons:

(a) big servers were not yet used to seeing their serves neutralized; and
(b) federer was very easily able to outmaneuver his opponents in any rally

Things have changed enough for Federer to need to be more aggressive, but it's been hard for him to do so consistently.
.....

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 06:31 AM
A Lot of players do exactly what you say. Federer's blocks are usually deep so you have to hit a fairly risky shot to take full control of the point from there. A lot of single handers are lazy when returning serve on their backhand. Haas and Federer are both guilty at times of sitting back and slicing their returns even on second serves.

Yes. I think the depth works in his favour. I also think it is a major weakness against nadal who stands way behind the baseline. That allows nadal to take control of points.

Asadinator
07-26-2012, 06:44 AM
Yes. I think the depth works in his favour. I also think it is a major weakness against nadal who stands way behind the baseline. That allows nadal to take control of points.

Agree, which is why Djokovic's return cause Nadal lots of problems.

leng jai
07-26-2012, 06:50 AM
The AO final was a pretty good illustration of that fact. Djokovic consistently hit deep drives off of Nadal's serves which he ended up defensively half volleying because he didn't have enough time to retreat to his usual rallying positon behind the baseline.

HKz
07-26-2012, 06:56 AM
Does federer have the worst return of serve in the top 10 atleast. He just seems to block the serve and get it back into play. Is there some heavy spin to the return i am missing?
Djokovic and Murray really attack on their return.

He is one of the weaker returns when considering the general scope of things, however, his specialty has been returning big servers. He does block many of these serves back, however, he places them normally pretty deep or even purposely short to draw opponents into the net against their own terms. At the very least, he makes many of the servers start their points off in a neutral position which is frustrating for them because normally if they hit a big serve, they are expecting a routine winner very early, yet they get something they really can't work with so once the rally starts, Federer obviously becomes very tough to beat.

However, the downside with such returning is that he struggles against servers who don't serve that big and much of their game plan revolves around working the point, so starting the point off neutral doesn't help Federer in those cases at all. In terms of actual poor returning, really the only player he has an issue with when returning serve is Rafa. Nadal doesn't have a huge serve, however, since he slices nearly everything to Federer's backhand, it starts Federer in a disadvantageous position, especially on the ad court since he normally gets pulled off wide to his backhand side, so if he plays a block return, the ball just flies off the racket due to the spin allowing Rafa to take control of most of these rallies.

If you serve a shitty second serve though, he will punish you for it by oftentimes running around and crushing the ball with his forehand.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 07:01 AM
The AO final was a pretty good illustration of that fact. Djokovic consistently hit deep drives off of Nadal's serves which he ended up defensively half volleying because he didn't have enough time to retreat to his usual rallying positon behind the baseline.

Yes absolutely. Depth stumps nadal especially on the faster surfaces.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=HKz;12250554

If you serve a shitty second serve though, he will punish you for it by oftentimes running around and crushing the ball with his forehand.[/QUOTE]

Yes. As evidenced by murray getting destroyed in 3rd and 4th set of Wimbledon final, where is 1st serve went AWOL.

analysist
07-26-2012, 07:34 AM
Federer is obviously slower a little and his backhand passhing shot decreases a bit. Fed used to draw his opponents to the net and using that signature bh pass. But now this is harder because he's step slower, he makes more mistakes than before. In his prime, we rarely saw him missing an easy bh passing shot. It's more frequent nowadays.

If you review the match between Fed and Nadal in Indian Wells 2012, you can see he returned more aggressive( but not too aggressive), both first and second serves. He dictated well, never deviated the tactic that don't let Nadal control the point with his forehand from the mid-court. And he attacked Nadal's backhand beautifully , very patient to wait for his chance to come. But IMO the key is that he returned a lot of Nadal's serve with depth and to Nadal's backhand side.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 07:51 AM
Obviously federer has changed his style and adjusted his game. I actually think that federer should have no problems with nadal off clay if he can only get him out of his head.

dencod16
07-26-2012, 09:22 AM
I think he blocks it because he shanks a lot of returns if he doesn't do so.

duarte_a
07-26-2012, 09:44 AM
vs Roddick: painting 140 mph returns on the baseline

vs Nadal: shanking 80 mph 2nd serves from the bh

This basically.

Roger can use the power of the serve but can't generate power of his own on the backhand side. He does hit some BH returns of 2nd serves with some pace but he does it rarely.

Roger is able to put a lot of returns on the other side of the court he just doesn't return with interest.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 09:54 AM
Yes. He has no problems putting the ball on the right side of the net. However this is generally a soft return. Why players like murray don't attack it, especially when tje courts are playing slow, is beyond me.
The depth is obviously a major factor.
can a serve and volley game work effectively against federer because of the soft ROS?

Mercury
07-26-2012, 11:05 AM
Yes. He has no problems putting the ball on the right side of the net. However this is generally a soft return. Why players like murray don't attack it, especially when tje courts are playing slow, is beyond me.
The depth is obviously a major factor.
can a serve and volley game work effectively against federer because of the soft ROS?
I think Haas showed that would work in the Halle final. I seem to remember him playing many many Serve & Vollies and he won most of them... This was grass though so the serve has much more effect than HC will allow.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 11:20 AM
I think Haas showed that would work in the Halle final. I seem to remember him playing many many Serve & Vollies and he won most of them... This was grass though so the serve has much more effect than HC will allow.

Sorry but missed the halle tournament. Star sports refuses to air smaller events in india.
Murray made the mistake of giving fed too much time after tje return in the Wimbledon final.

leng jai
07-26-2012, 12:17 PM
I think Haas showed that would work in the Halle final. I seem to remember him playing many many Serve & Vollies and he won most of them... This was grass though so the serve has much more effect than HC will allow.

Haas actually didn't serve and volley that much in Halle surprisingly. He did it more prolifically in 2009. Federer has historically done very well against net rushers but he doesn't return in the same manner against them. He drives the ball more often and tries to block it back with less margin over the net. Serve and volleying would be effective against him if it was used at the right moment. For example at break point down in the ad court. First serve wide to the backhand. 9/10 times Federer will chip that back with margin which would be an easy put away for a decent volleyer. Two or three times a set would be sparing enough for him not to expect it.

Chirag
07-26-2012, 12:19 PM
Haas actually didn't serve and volley that much in Halle surprisingly. He did it more prolifically in 2009. Federer has historically done very well against net rushers but he doesn't return in the same manner against them. He drives the ball more often and tries to block it back with less margin over the net. Serve and volleying would be effective against him if it was used at the right moment. For example at break point down in the ad court. First serve wide to the backhand. 9/10 times Federer will chip that back with margin which would be an easy put away for a decent volleyer. Two or three times a set would be sparing even for him not to expect it.

Haas's serve and backhand was too solid in Halle .He didnt need to rush to the net ;)

DJ Soup
07-26-2012, 12:20 PM
a good ROS doesn't necessarily have to be an offensive ROS, it can be a neutralizing ROS.
Fed does well with the latter

Fujee
07-26-2012, 01:05 PM
It used to be really awesome.

Whiznot
07-26-2012, 02:04 PM
I would like to see Federer try to return like Rosol against Nadal. Rosol used animated movement while waiting for Nadal's serve and then drove returns hard at Rafa's feet. Attacking Nadal's serve can keep him unsettled.

Fujee
07-26-2012, 02:22 PM
I would like to see Federer try to return like Rosol against Nadal. Rosol used animated movement while waiting for Nadal's serve and then drove returns hard at Rafa's feet. Attacking Nadal's serve can keep him unsettled.

I don't think Federer could ever maintain such a level of concentration as Rosol did against Rafito.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
07-26-2012, 02:36 PM
in his prime it was maybe best ever

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 02:39 PM
in his prime it was maybe best ever

No it wasn't. He always had a neutralizing serve. It was maybe the weakest part of his amazing game excet for the backhand ( which is holding up superbly is recent tournaments)

Fujee
07-26-2012, 02:51 PM
No it wasn't. He always had a neutralizing serve. It was maybe the weakest part of his amazing game excet for the backhand ( which is holding up superbly is recent tournaments)

Negative. His ROS used to be incredibly aggressive, but often he would choose to neutralise against big servers, of which he predominantly faced during his peak.

Roger has lost a half step and thus his ROS has suffered considerably.

I would barely consider his backhand a weakness anymore. It only really fails majorly against Rafa for obvious reasons.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 03:13 PM
in his prime it was maybe best ever

Negative. His ROS used to be incredibly aggressive, but often he would choose to neutralise against big servers, of which he predominantly faced during his peak.

Roger has lost a half step and thus his ROS has suffered considerably.

I would barely consider his backhand a weakness anymore. It only really fails majorly against Rafa for obvious reasons.

No. His backhand is no more a weakness and i doubt it would even fail against nadal now.
but djokovic has an aggressive ros and it is definitely more effective thamn federers. However i think fed does extremely well on placement which doesn't give the opponent an opportunity to be aggressive.

SheenKJohn
07-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Sorry but missed the halle tournament. Star sports refuses to air smaller events in india.
Murray made the mistake of giving fed too much time after tje return in the Wimbledon final.

Halle was broadcasted on Sony Six actually in India !!

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Halle was broadcasted on Sony Six actually in India !!

Sony six! Did not know that. Do they also broadcast other masters tournaments on the channel?

Chirag
07-26-2012, 03:44 PM
No it wasn't. He always had a neutralizing serve. It was maybe the weakest part of his amazing game excet for the backhand ( which is holding up superbly is recent tournaments)

In his heyday and right now indoors his backhand wasn't a liability it was actually a weapon .Only after his decline has the backhand become suspect to breaking down


Respectfully
Chirag

Chirag
07-26-2012, 03:45 PM
Halle was broadcasted on Sony Six actually in India !!

You mean it was readily available on Tv and I wasted my bandwidth watching on a stream :speakles:


Respectfully
Chirag

Mark Lenders
07-26-2012, 03:51 PM
While Tsonga in the top 10, the only one who can take the "Worst returner in the top 10" tittle from him is Isner (same goes for worst backhand really).

Federer's aggressive return isn't great, his blocked returns are only second to Murray's though.

Andy1402
07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
While Tsonga in the top 10, the only one who can take the "Worst returner in the top 10" tittle from him is Isner (same goes for worst backhand really).

Federer's aggressive return isn't great, his blocked returns are only second to Murray's though.

Do the blocked returns depend entirely on placement? Or is there any other factor that i am not aware of?