Vulturing [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Vulturing

dencod16
07-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I have nothing against vulturing i just hate it that people are focused on certain players when this is done.
Congrats for Ferrer, Monaco, Tipsarevic, del Potro and Raonic for taking advantage of the draw they have. I rather see successful vulturing that those who fell miserably at it.

5 Ferrer, David (ESP)
Auckland (Won)
s-Hertogenbosch (Won)
Bastad (Won)

8 Tipsarevic, Janko (SRB)
Chennai (Final)
Stutrgart (Won)
Atlanta (Final)

9 Del Potro, Juan Martin (ARG)
Estoril (Won)

10 Monaco, Juan (ARG)
Chile (Won)
Houston (Won)
Stutgart (Final)

11 Isner, John (USA)
Houston (Final)
Newport (Won)
Atlanta (Semifinal)

12 Almagro, Nicolas (ESP)
Chennai (Semifinal)
Auckland (Quarterfinal)
Sao Paulo (Won)
Bastad (Final)

13 Fish, Mardy (USA)
Houston (Second Round)
Atlanta (Second Round)

14 Simon, Gilles (FRA)
Sao Paulo (Second ROund)
Bucharest (Won)

15 Cilic, Marin (CRO)
Umag (Won)

16 Verdasco, Fernando (ESP)
Auckland (Semifinal)
Sao Paulo (Quarterfinal)
Umag (Semifinal)

18 Dolgopolov, Alexandr (UKR)
Casablanca (Second ROund)
Umag (Semifinal)

19 Nishikori, Kei (JPN)
Newport (Quarterfinals)
Atlanta (Quarterfinals)

20 Granollers, Marcel (ESP)
Umag (Final)
Atlanta (Second Round)

21 Gasquet, Richard (FRA)
Estoril (Final)

22 Kohlschreiber, Philipp (GER)
Auckland (Semifinal)

23 Mayer, Florian (GER)
Casablanca (Second Round)
Bucharest (Second Round)

24 Raonic, Milos (CAN)
Chennai (Won)
San Jose (Won)
Newport (Second Round)

25 Roddick, Andy (USA)
San Jose (Quarterfinal)

26 Wawrinka, Stanislas (SUI)
Chennai (Quarterfinals)
Estoril (Semifinals)
Atlanta (Second Round)

27 Stepanek, Radek (CZE)
San Jose (Quarterfinal)

28 Seppi, Andreas (ITA)
Zagreb (Second Round)
Bucharest (Quarterfinals)
Serbia (Won)

29 Youzhny, Mikhail (RUS)
Zagreb (Won)
Atlanta (Second Round)

30 Lopez, Feliciano (ESP)
Houston (Semifinals)
Atlanta (Quarterfinal)

rocketassist
07-22-2012, 04:16 PM
http://t.qkme.me/35bze4.jpg

Slade
07-22-2012, 04:17 PM
What is with MTF's obsession with vultures? :shrug:

Johnny Groove
07-22-2012, 04:17 PM
I'd rather be a vulture that wins than a mug who always loses.

Time Violation
07-22-2012, 04:18 PM
It's the most stupid thing on MTF, hands down. So-called tennis fans outraged because tennis players appear at tennis tournaments.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 04:18 PM
If I was a top 10 player I would vulture loads. My calendar would be as follows;
Auckland/ Aussie Open
SAP/Delray/Memphis
Indian Wells/Miami/ US Clay/Estoril
Rome/Madrid/Nice
FO/Eastbourne/Wimby/Newport
Washigton/Cincinatti/Pilot Pen/USO
Bangkok/China/Stockholm/Vienna/Valenica/Paris

:lol:

HKz
07-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Er, but for some of those that complain, the draw given is not a problem. Just the fact that it seems like some players play some of these events in order to avoid the best players. The Doha case for example, where several of the top players play their first ATP event of the year and players like Ferrer choose to play at Auckland. I mean in that particular event, Ferrer lost just one set and won every single set with a score of 6-3 or 6-4 bar one match giving him a scoreline of 6-2.. I have no problem with playing these small events here or there, and certainly when players do it once in a while it is fine, but some seem to do it like I said consistently in order to avoid the top players and therefore their ranking/hype may be inflated :shrug:

EDIT: Ferrer is a bad example, because he certainly belongs at the top, no question about that, but there are others.

Lazyking
07-22-2012, 04:24 PM
It's the most stupid thing on MTF, hands down. So-called tennis fans outraged because tennis players appear at tennis tournaments.

This. It's not like these guys only play small 250s

dencod16
07-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Er, but for some of those that complain, the draw given is not a problem. Just the fact that it seems like some players play some of these events in order to avoid the best players. The Doha case for example, where several of the top players play their first ATP event of the year and players like Ferrer choose to play at Auckland. I mean in that particular event, Ferrer lost just one set and won every single set with a score of 6-3 or 6-4 bar one match giving him a scoreline of 6-2.. I have no problem with playing these small events here or there, and certainly when players do it once in a while it is fine, but some seem to do it like I said consistently in order to avoid the top players and therefore their ranking/hype may be inflated :shrug:

The thing about is he didn't know the list before the event, it's not like here are the players do you want to sign in or not. If they accept Wild Card that maybe something else.

Orka_n
07-22-2012, 04:28 PM
It's the most stupid thing on MTF, hands down. So-called tennis fans outraged because tennis players appear at tennis tournaments.Well put. Only clowns like Lenders and Tyson whine about vulturing.

Lazyking
07-22-2012, 04:28 PM
There is also a case to be made that playing in a small tourny puts alot more pressure on you to win. its one thing to lose at a slam or big event but if you're a top player and lose against a 100 + ranked player or qualifer at like Basted that's pretty bad.

misty1
07-22-2012, 04:28 PM
it is funny that certain players like monaco and ferrer get blasted all the time and yet roddick who will probably win the tournament in atlanta with only 1 win over a top 50 player along the way gets a pass

i remember when vulturing was called playing tennis..i wonder when we'll get back to that

The Fearhand
07-22-2012, 04:29 PM
What is with MTF's obsession with vultures? :shrug:

I think a poor excuse to hate on ''certain'' players.

Roger the Dodger
07-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Nadal should have vultured Acapulco, Stuttgart and Gstaad.

6 titles - leader of the title race :hearts:

Vulturdal.

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 04:35 PM
I'll use two players to make my point here: Ferrer and Del Potro, using their 250 and 500 tournaments. These two are pretty much perfect to illustrate what a vulture and a non-vulture is.

Ferrer:

Won Auckland by beating #74, #80, #24, #68.

Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11

Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27

Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.

Won Scrub Hertogenbosh by beating #244, #62, #112, #60 and #145

Won Bastaad by beating #128, #199, #69 and #10.


So basically 1800 of his 4100 ranking points for the year (almost 50%) come from tournaments where he faced scrubs. The only tournaments that even had top 10 players in the draw were Barcelona and Bastaad (who had Almagro, a guy who keeps going in and out of the top 10, not exactly a solid top 10er).

Verdict: VULTURE


Del Potro:

Rotterdam Final by beating #47, #105, #24 and Berdych (#7). Lost final to Federer.

Won Marseille by beating #40, #15, Tsonga (#6) and #50

Dubai semis by beating #20, #143, Tsonga (#5), lost to Federer.

Won Estoril by beating #90, #69, #22 and #18


So he entered Rotterdam with Federer and Berdych in the draw, Marseille with Tsonga and Tipsy in the draw, Dubai with 8 top 10 players in the draw. Estoril was admittedly weak with Gasquet and Wawrinka as second and third seeds, but still stronger than the vast majority of the tournaments Ferrer entered. Also feel free to compare the rankings of the players faced.

Verdict: NOT A VULTURE


It's really simple really.

AnnaK_4ever
07-22-2012, 04:36 PM
it is funny that certain players like monaco and ferrer get blasted all the time and yet roddick who will probably win the tournament in atlanta with only 1 win over a top 50 player along the way gets a pass


The difference is, Roddick 1) is approaching retirement, 2) has won a bunch of big titles in the past thus proving himself capable of achieving great things. Monaco and, to a lesser extent, Ferrer are supposed to be at the peak of their careers, yet can only win MM titles.

Pirata.
07-22-2012, 04:37 PM
:zzz:


The difference is, Roddick 1) is approaching retirement, 2) has won a bunch of big titles in the past thus proving himself capable of achieving great things. Monaco and, to a lesser extent, Ferrer are supposed to be at the peak of their careers, yet can only win MM titles.

I like how Ferrer "can only win MM titles" and his ranking isn't mostly due to anything like making a semifinal at WTF and RG and two quarterfinals at AO and W.

Dougie
07-22-2012, 04:38 PM
If Iīd be a pro I would vulture like there is no tomorrow!!
Since every surface is pretty much identical nowadays, we have a few top players who share all the biggest titles between them, there are no surface specialists at the top anymore. WHatīs left for the lower ranked players, ( those outside top 5), are 250 tournaments, and the occasional 500.
Back in the 90īs, for example, when there were fast grass courts, slow clay, indoor carpets, etc, you might see Sampras losing early at RG, and winning Wimbledon. Or Muster winnig RG and hardly making an effort at Wimbledon. This left room for lower ranked players to make deep runs at Slams, and other bigger tournaments.

This doesnīt happen anymore. Since the situation is what it is, I think itīs pointless to blame players like Almagro, MOnaco, Tipsy, Isner. They will probably never win SLams, but they are working hard and winning the tournaments that they can win. Those guys deserve some credit for maximising their potential.

misty1
07-22-2012, 04:38 PM
I'll use two players to make my point here: Ferrer and Del Potro, using their 250 and 500 tournaments.

Ferrer:

Won Auckland by beating #74, #80, #24, #68.

Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11

Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27

Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.

Won Scrub Hertogenbosh by beating #244, #62, #112, #60 and #145

Won Bastaad by beating #128, #199, #69 and #10.


So basically 1800 of his 4100 ranking points for the year (almost 50%) come from tournaments where he faced scrubs. The only tournaments that even had top 10 players in the draw were Barcelona and Bastaad (who had Almagro, a guy who keeps going in and out of the top 10, not exactly a solid top 10er).

Verdict: VULTURE


Del Potro:

Rotterdam Final by beating #47, #105, #24 and Berdych (#7). Lost final to Federer.

Won Marseille by beating #40, #15, Tsonga (#6) and #50

Dubai semis by beating #20, #143, Tsonga (#5), lost to Federer.

Won Estoril by beating #90, #69, #22 and #18


So he entered Rotterdam with Federer and Berdych in the draw, Marseille with Tsonga and Tipsy in the draw, Dubai with 8 top 10 players in the draw. Estoril was admittedly weak with Gasquet and Wawrinka as second and third seeds, but still stronger than the vast majority of the tournaments Ferrer entered. Also feel free to compare the rankings of the players faced.

Verdict: NOT A VULTURE


It's really simple really.

for you maybe

HKz
07-22-2012, 04:39 PM
The thing about is he didn't know the list before the event, it's not like here are the players do you want to sign in or not. If they accept Wild Card that maybe something else.

They have a brain... They aren't deaf nor blind. I'm sure they hear what events some players are likely to play. I mean if we know Roger's or Rafa's schedules, I'm sure someone that is inside the world of tennis professionals could easily get the info about who is playing where each year most likely.

misty1
07-22-2012, 04:39 PM
The difference is, Roddick 1) is approaching retirement, 2) has won a bunch of big titles in the past thus proving himself capable of achieving great things. Monaco and, to a lesser extent, Ferrer are supposed to be at the peak of their careers, yet can only win MM titles.

who says he's appraoching reitrement and why does it matter what he's done in the past when we are talking about the here and now?

Chirag
07-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Well put. Only clowns like Lenders and Tyson whine about vulturing.

agreed .Beating a proffesional is tough no matter what the case :rolleyes: Those guys earned those titles .They also make money from it which is why they play .No harm in earning

Slade
07-22-2012, 04:42 PM
Ferrer:

Verdict: VULTURE

Lmao

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 04:44 PM
for you maybe

The facts are all there. Del Potro enters non-mandatory tournaments with great players in the draw: Federer, Berdych, Tsonga, Tipsy, eighter top 10ers in Dubai = not a vulture.

Ferrer goes for the easy points by entering tournaments with very weak fields and no great players in the draw (the sole exception being Barcelona, but even then he got a great draw) = vulture.

Slade
07-22-2012, 04:46 PM
Your vulture identification skills are quite exceptional good sir.

misty1
07-22-2012, 04:47 PM
The facts are all there. Del Potro enters non-mandatory tournaments with great players in the draw: Federer, Berdych, Tsonga, Tipsy, eighter top 10ers in Dubai = not a vulture.

Ferrer goes for the easy points by entering tournaments with very weak fields and no great players in the draw (the sole exception being Barcelona, but even then he got a great draw) = vulture.

yes how dare ferrer do his job, which is what tennis is , his job.

your concept of vulturing really is quite funny

besides your credibility is damaged by your insistence of going in every ferrer thread and bitching and then supporting and cheering on tipsarevic for doing basically the same thing. If you want to talk about most of their points coming from 250's then look at tipsarevic.

oh..and at least ferrer pulled out of his event this week, what possible reason could tipsy had for playing in gstaad? think of it, it'll come to you..or maybe with your massive double standard it wont

Roger the Dodger
07-22-2012, 04:47 PM
agreed .Beating a proffesional is tough no matter what the case :rolleyes: Those guys earned those titles .They also make money from it which is why they play .No harm in earning

By that reasoning, you'd be ok if Nadal played in tournaments like Nice, though he doesn't really need it in his CV. According to you, its ethical for him to hog everywhere for titles?

henke007
07-22-2012, 04:48 PM
Mugro is the Vulture in chief in the 250 category, i think he had two uncountable 250.s at best. And pls do not mention Delpo in this category.

Ferrer,Almugro, Tipsy and Monaco are the biggest vultures right now and all are in the top 10 where Ferrer is the only worthy top 10 player with great Slam results etc to back it up.

Dougie
07-22-2012, 04:49 PM
The facts are all there. Del Potro enters non-mandatory tournaments with great players in the draw: Federer, Berdych, Tsonga, Tipsy, eighter top 10ers in Dubai = not a vulture.

Ferrer goes for the easy points by entering tournaments with very weak fields and no great players in the draw (the sole exception being Barcelona, but even then he got a great draw) = vulture.

Ferrerīs strongest surface is clay, so why on earth would he have played at Dubai instead of Acapulco? Both are 500 tournaments, and his chances at Acapulco are so much better. He also wasnīt going to get the same appearance fee as Federer, for example. Itīs called smart, not vulturing.

ANd players canīt really affect their draws. If Ferrer happened to have an easy draw at Barcelona ( which is a 500), itīs not really his fault. It doesnīt really qualify as an argument here.

tennishero
07-22-2012, 04:51 PM
this term should be banned from MTF, really stupid

how can you vulture a 500 event. :confused:

Allez
07-22-2012, 04:52 PM
Yep. Mugro is the mother of all vultures. No wonder he can't hang with the top guys. The switch is like going from Futures into the main ATP tour. Vulturing can only get you so far...

Lazyking
07-22-2012, 04:53 PM
I think of it like this.. if guys wanna play tennis and make money and really that's what it's about.. not really thier ranking because the players know if they suck at the big ones, their ranking won't be too great anyway. I have no problem with it.

Plus, it helps the tour make money when a top ten player is in a lower tournment.

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 04:59 PM
yes how dare ferrer do his job, which is what tennis is , his job.

your concept of vulturing really is quite funny

besides your credibility is damaged by your insistence of going in every ferrer thread and bitching and then supporting and cheering on tipsarevic for doing basically the same thing. If you want to talk about most of their points coming from 250's then look at tipsarevic.

oh..and at least ferrer pulled out of his event this week, what possible reason could tipsy had for playing in gstaad? think of it, it'll come to you..or maybe with your massive double standard it wont

What about doing his job in tournaments with quality field and not vulturing on challenger level fields?

Ferrerīs strongest surface is clay, so why on earth would he have played at Dubai instead of Acapulco? Both are 500 tournaments, and his chances at Acapulco are so much better. He also wasnīt going to get the same appearance fee as Federer, for example. Itīs called smart, not vulturing.

ANd players canīt really affect their draws. If Ferrer happened to have an easy draw at Barcelona ( which is a 500), itīs not really his fault. It doesnīt really qualify as an argument here.

Because he was ranked #6 at the time and all the top players were in Dubai? Paint it anyway you like it, going to Acapulco was just a way to get easy by vulturing on a challenger level field. And while he wouldn't get Federer's appearance fee, he'd still get more money than in Acapulco.

Fair enough about Barcelona; he has been to one non-mandatory tournament with a decent field, not very impressive when you look at the field of the other tournaments he entered.

misty1
07-22-2012, 05:01 PM
What about doing his job in tournaments with quality field and not vulturing on challenger level fields?



Because he was ranked #6 at the time and all the top players were in Dubai? Paint it anyway you like it, going to Acapulco was just a way to get easy by vulturing on a challenger level field. And while he wouldn't get Federer's appearance fee, he'd still get more money than in Acapulco.

Fair enough about Barcelona; he has been to one non-mandatory tournament with a decent field, not very impressive when you look at the field of the other tournaments he entered.

ferrer's record in top tournaments is great. and his record in slams this year is much better than tipsarevic's. His performance at almost every single top tournament whether it be grand slams or masters is far better than tipsarevic's..and not just this year

forget about that?

with your definition of a vulture you are now forced to label tipsy as one

henke007
07-22-2012, 05:01 PM
Ferrer has two 1/4 and a 1/2 in Slams in 2012 and is hardly a vulture with a Big V like the other Mugs.

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 05:07 PM
ferrer's record in top tournaments is great. and his record in slams this year is much better than tipsarevic's. His performance at almost every single top tournament whether it be grand slams or masters is far better than tipsarevic's..and not just this year

forget about that?

Tipsy's non mandatories:

Reached Marseille SF with Delpo, Tsonga anf Fish in the draw (Fish was top 10 at the time)

Reached Dubai QFs with eight top 10 players in the draw.

Reached Barcelona QF (lost to Nadal, like Ferrer did later in the final)

Beat Berdych for the World Team Championship (gives 250p)

R16 at Queens with Murray and Tsonga in the draw

Stuttgart and Gastaad were his only weak tournaments and even then he had to face a guy like Bellucci, who trashed Ferrer earlier this year in Monte Carlo, and a few top 15/20 players.


Verdict: NOT A VULTURE. He enters a lot for 250/500s, but with quality fields.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:08 PM
I'll use two players to make my point here: Ferrer and Del Potro, using their 250 and 500 tournaments. These two are pretty much perfect to illustrate what a vulture and a non-vulture is.

Ferrer:

Won Auckland by beating #74, #80, #24, #68.

Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11

Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27

Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.

Won Scrub Hertogenbosh by beating #244, #62, #112, #60 and #145

Won Bastaad by beating #128, #199, #69 and #10.


So basically 1800 of his 4100 ranking points for the year (almost 50%) come from tournaments where he faced scrubs. The only tournaments that even had top 10 players in the draw were Barcelona and Bastaad (who had Almagro, a guy who keeps going in and out of the top 10, not exactly a solid top 10er).

Verdict: VULTURE


Del Potro:

Rotterdam Final by beating #47, #105, #24 and Berdych (#7). Lost final to Federer.

Won Marseille by beating #40, #15, Tsonga (#6) and #50

Dubai semis by beating #20, #143, Tsonga (#5), lost to Federer.

Won Estoril by beating #90, #69, #22 and #18


So he entered Rotterdam with Federer and Berdych in the draw, Marseille with Tsonga and Tipsy in the draw, Dubai with 8 top 10 players in the draw. Estoril was admittedly weak with Gasquet and Wawrinka as second and third seeds, but still stronger than the vast majority of the tournaments Ferrer entered. Also feel free to compare the rankings of the players faced.

Verdict: NOT A VULTURE


It's really simple really.

LOL, vulturing is based on the field not the opponents. what if the top 8 seeds are ranked 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15, 17, and 7 of the 8 seeds fell, is the only remaining seeds fault that his supposed seeded opponent wasn't there.

And for Ferrer


Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11
the 263 is Gonzalez took on #28 Chela's spot, not Ferrer's fault that Chela lost
the #85 is Nalbandian took on #12 Simon's spot, again not Ferrer's fault that Simon lost


Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27
suppose to face #19 Mayer in the quarters but Mayer lost in the second round
suppose to face #12 Simon in the semis but lost in the first round
suppose to face #11 Almagro in the final but lost in the quarterfinals


Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.
Suppose to face Murray the #4 in the semis but he lost,

Oh Ferrer why do you make this other players lose before you face them, your so good.

Now for Del Potro

Rotterdam, what if Hatu Galung defeated Troicki a player ranked 200 below.
Marseille, what if Beck defeats Davydenko and Kunitsyn defeated Gasquet wouldn't the number be different.
Estoril, what if Sousa defeated Machado, Reynolds defeated Montanes

WHy dont you blame those seeded players for losing before they are suppose to.

misty1
07-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Tipsy's non mandatories:

Reached Marseille SF with Delpo, Tsonga anf Fish in the draw (Fish was top 10 at the time)

Reached Dubai QFs with eight top 10 players in the draw.

Reached Barcelona QF (lost to Nadal, like Ferrer did later in the final)

Beat Berdych for the World Team Championship (gives 250p)

R16 at Queens with Murray and Tsonga in the draw

Stuttgart and Gastaad were his only weak tournaments and even then he had to face a guy like Bellucci, who trashed Ferrer earlier this year in Monte Carlo, and a few top 15/20 players.


Verdict: NOT A VULTURE. He enters a lot for 250/500s, but with quality fields.

:lol: such a double standard

Orka_n
07-22-2012, 05:10 PM
Mug Lenders yet again delivering the idiocy, and of course failing to recognize Ferrer's results in this year's slams (which are better than Del Potro's).

Go ahead mate, keep embarrassing yourself.

sexybeast
07-22-2012, 05:10 PM
Tomas Muster must be the greatest vulture of the last 2 decades or so, he won basically around 30 mickey mouse tournaments barely ever facing top 20 players.

Jimmy Connors and Vilas were topclass vultures in the 70s but also truly great in big tournaments, both got to somehow get ranked nr1 while getting completely owned by Borg in the tournaments that mattered (or any tournament at all were Borg was playing) because of lousy ranking system.

henke007
07-22-2012, 05:12 PM
Tipsarevic is a BIG vulture Yes he is useless in most Slams and Masters and needs to get the hell out of the top 10.

He counts six 250 tourneys for fk sake :o:lol: where most are crappy tourneys

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 05:13 PM
LOL, vulturing is based on the field not the opponents. what if the top 8 seeds are ranked 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15, 17, and 7 of the 8 seeds fell, is the only remaining seeds fault that his supposed seeded opponent wasn't there.

And for Ferrer


Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11
the 263 is Gonzalez took on #28 Chela's spot, not Ferrer's fault that Chela lost
the #85 is Nalbandian took on #12 Simon's spot, again not Ferrer's fault that Simon lost


Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27
suppose to face #19 Mayer in the quarters but Mayer lost in the second round
suppose to face #12 Simon in the semis but lost in the first round
suppose to face #11 Almagro in the final but lost in the quarterfinals


Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.
Suppose to face Murray the #4 in the semis but he lost,

Oh Ferrer why do you make this other players lose before you face them, your so good.

Now for Del Potro

Rotterdam, what if Hatu Galung defeated Troicki a player ranked 200 below.
Marseille, what if Beck defeats Davydenko and Kunitsyn defeated Gasquet wouldn't the number be different.
Estoril, what if Sousa defeated Machado, Reynolds defeated Montanes

WHy dont you blame those seeded players for losing before they are suppose to.

Wouldn't have changed much; none of those players who didn't live up to their seeding are in the top 10, so it doesn't change the fact that Ferrer enters non-mandatories with weak fields. Even if everyone had lived their seeding, they'd still be weak draws.

:lol: such a double standard

No double standards. Just compare the fields of non-mandatory fields Ferrer and Tipsy entered, it's impossible not to see the difference.

sexybeast
07-22-2012, 05:14 PM
Question is, who is the GVOAT?

Muster? Connors? Vilas?

Dont think it is worth a poll thread, we have enought vulture threads already.

Roger the Dodger
07-22-2012, 05:15 PM
LOL, vulturing is based on the field not the opponents. what if the top 8 seeds are ranked 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 15, 17, and 7 of the 8 seeds fell, is the only remaining seeds fault that his supposed seeded opponent wasn't there.

And for Ferrer


Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11
the 263 is Gonzalez took on #28 Chela's spot, not Ferrer's fault that Chela lost
the #85 is Nalbandian took on #12 Simon's spot, again not Ferrer's fault that Simon lost


Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27
suppose to face #19 Mayer in the quarters but Mayer lost in the second round
suppose to face #12 Simon in the semis but lost in the first round
suppose to face #11 Almagro in the final but lost in the quarterfinals


Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.
Suppose to face Murray the #4 in the semis but he lost,

Oh Ferrer why do you make this other players lose before you face them, your so good.

Now for Del Potro

Rotterdam, what if Hatu Galung defeated Troicki a player ranked 200 below.
Marseille, what if Beck defeats Davydenko and Kunitsyn defeated Gasquet wouldn't the number be different.
Estoril, what if Sousa defeated Machado, Reynolds defeated Montanes

WHy dont you blame those seeded players for losing before they are suppose to.

Hmm... Interesting research here.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:17 PM
Tipsy's non mandatories:

Reached Marseille SF with Delpo, Tsonga anf Fish in the draw (Fish was top 10 at the time)

Reached Dubai QFs with eight top 10 players in the draw.

Reached Barcelona QF (lost to Nadal, like Ferrer did later in the final)

Beat Berdych for the World Team Championship (gives 250p)

R16 at Queens with Murray and Tsonga in the draw

Stuttgart and Gastaad were his only weak tournaments and even then he had to face a guy like Bellucci, who trashed Ferrer earlier this year in Monte Carlo, and a few top 15/20 players.


Verdict: NOT A VULTURE. He enters a lot for 250/500s, but with quality fields.

Reached Marseille SF with Delpo, Tsonga anf Fish in the draw (Fish was top 10 at the time), did Tipsarevic face them?

R16 at Queens with Murray and Tsonga in the draw Again Tipsarevic such a nice guy for beating this two players

And hasn't Ferrer trashed everyone aside from Nadal and Federer.

Ferrer top 20 wins 2012:
#18 Gasquet
#11 Almagro
#11 del Potro
#16 Lopez
#13 Almagro
#12 Simon
#16 Verdasco
#4 Murray
#10 Almagro

losing to only two players outside the top 4.

Tipsarevic top 20 wins 2012:
#18 Dolgpolov
#12 Simon
#1 Djokovic (Madrid)
#14 Juan Monaco, so many wow.

Loses below his ranking, 10 players beat him that are ranked below him.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Wouldn't have changed much; none of those players who didn't live up to their seeding are in the top 10, so it doesn't change the fact that Ferrer enters non-mandatories with weak fields. Even if everyone had lived their seeding, they'd still be weak draws.



No double standards. Just compare the fields of non-mandatory fields Ferrer and Tipsy entered, it's impossible not to see the difference.

Yes cause facing 3 top 20's is so easy.

chenx15
07-22-2012, 05:20 PM
never had issues with threads before but,there should be a flagging system that detects the word vulture in a thread. just plain miserable

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Reached Marseille SF with Delpo, Tsonga anf Fish in the draw (Fish was top 10 at the time), did Tipsarevic face them?

R16 at Queens with Murray and Tsonga in the draw Again Tipsarevic such a nice guy for beating this two players

And hasn't Ferrer trashed everyone aside from Nadal and Federer.

Ferrer top 20 wins 2012:
#18 Gasquet
#11 Almagro
#11 del Potro
#16 Lopez
#13 Almagro
#12 Simon
#16 Verdasco
#4 Murray
#10 Almagro

losing to only two players outside the top 4.

Tipsarevic top 20 wins 2012:
#18 Dolgpolov
#12 Simon
#1 Djokovic (Madrid)
#14 Juan Monaco, so many wow.

Loses below his ranking, 10 players beat him that are ranked below him.

They were in the draw, that's what matters. Before you sign up for a tournament, you can't possibly know who you'll actually play against, only who will be in the draw. Tispy's selection of tournaments with such great players in the draw proves that he is not a vulture.

Ferrer selecting tournaments with no top 10 players in the draw (Barcelona the exception) and sometimes even no top 30 players exposes him as a vulture who's just looking for easy points. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
07-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Question is, who is the GVOAT?

Muster? Connors? Vilas?



can one be a vulture if they are actually good?

isn't the strict definition of a vulture- a player who sucks at slams against anyone with talent so should be ranked down- but plays MM tournies to get a higher ranking

muster connors and vilas all played MMs for easy points but they all did well at slams as well

doesn't style of play also factor in aswell?

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:33 PM
They were in the draw, that's what matters. Before you sign up for a tournament, you can't possibly know who you'll actually play against, only who will be in the draw. Tispy's selection of tournaments with such great players in the draw proves that he is not a vulture.

Ferrer selecting tournaments with no top 10 players in the draw (Barcelona the exception) and sometimes even no top 30 players exposes him as a vulture who's just looking for easy points. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

Wow your such an idiot, biggest one. Before the tournament you actually don't know who is in the tournament. Your such a double standard ass. I don't think if the like of Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Murray, Tsonga, and Berdych he just shouldn't play. And as far as i know Ferrer has been reaching quarters of all slams rthis year with only Djokovic, Federer, and Murray has done that, How many has Tipsarevic reached none, wait yeah he has 1 in his entire career. Even if you add all of Ferrer Masters and Slam points which is 2205 which is 8 tournaments That is more than Tipsarevic 2130, BTW i added even Tipsarevic non-countable in the year and that's 16 tournaments from Tipsarevic.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 05:44 PM
this term should be banned from MTF, really stupid

how can you vulture a 500 event. :confused:

It's a mug 500 event. A clay tourney after Wimbeldon :lol: even worse it's in-between Wimby and the Olympics, the biggest mug 500 ever.

uxyzapenje
07-22-2012, 05:51 PM
1st of all, OP, Tipsarevic didn't reach final at Atlanta, he did it in Gstaad.
2nd of all HUGE F-ing LOL at Fish vulturing 2 2nd rounds :haha::haha:
3rd of all don't mention Delpo in this thread pls, it's just stupid
4th of all, Tipsarevic is maybe is not vulturing. If he was he would play Belgrade instaed of going to Barcelona to get beaten by Nadal. He wouldn't play Dubai with 7 other TOP10 players there. Or Marseille or Queens. He would play Eastburne or Den Bosh. You can only say he vultured in last 2 weeks, but he only played those tournaments to get a few easier matches as a preperation for the Olypmics. You can't comapre Ferrer and Tipsarevic for 2 reasons, 1st being that he entered stronger tournaments nad 2nd being that Ferrer is just better player. Ferrer is almost a lock to win in Acapulco or Bastad, but Tipsarevic wasn't a lock in Stuttgart. And you know Tipsarevic is counting six 250s for the very same reason he is not vulturing. His 500 tournaments were Dubai and Barcelona + MC where he wasn't a favourite to win or even get to SF and that's why he's counting 90 points from those tournaments. If he wanted to vulture he would play Acapulco and Memphis, not 3 of the strongest 500s (Dubai, Barcelona and he will play Basel with Novak, Roger, 2 Andys... there + MC) and he would just enter this years mug Belgrade tournament and be a favourite to win it....
5th of all, even though Ferrer vultures, it doesn't matter, he still belongs into the TOP5 or 6, what he proves in Grand Slams and Masters.
6th of all, what do you care? I would very much vulture myself if i had the chance, and that more for the money then for the points.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:52 PM
It's a mug 500 event. A clay tourney after Wimbeldon :lol: even worse it's in-between Wimby and the Olympics, the biggest mug 500 ever.

With 8 of top 31 playing what a mug, LOL. It's a 500 event not a Masters. And Blame the Olympics not the tournament.

uxyzapenje
07-22-2012, 05:52 PM
It's a mug 500 event. A clay tourney after Wimbeldon :lol: even worse it's in-between Wimby and the Olympics, the biggest mug 500 ever.

3 words for you: this years Washington

misty1
07-22-2012, 05:53 PM
Wouldn't have changed much; none of those players who didn't live up to their seeding are in the top 10, so it doesn't change the fact that Ferrer enters non-mandatories with weak fields. Even if everyone had lived their seeding, they'd still be weak draws.



No double standards. Just compare the fields of non-mandatory fields Ferrer and Tipsy entered, it's impossible not to see the difference.

do, its definately a double standard because only about 42% of ferrer's points come from 250's, take them all away and he's still solidly in the top 10. Tipsarevic not so much

ferrer is consistantly better than tipsy in the big tournaments , something you choose to ignore

so while the entry lists of the events ferrer has won may be weaker he's proven himself the better big tournament player

now just let me make it clear that i myself dont consider either one of them a vulture. Im just trying to point out that by your definition tipsarevic more fills out the definition than ferrer. Yet this week you havent once criticized tipsy for playing gstaad when you would have been all over ferrer

samanosuke
07-22-2012, 05:54 PM
Cilic winning Queens is maybe the biggest vulturing of the season.

Vultures are the most annoying kind of players. Built the name on beating weaker opponents and can't give a fight to better players. Respect more chokers than vultures. Wawrinka is a good example of opposite case. Loosing more often to weaker opponents than these guys but at least most of the time makes a competitive match even against very top players. That's why he has a lot more respect in my book than those guys. Monaco is the worst of them though

dencod16
07-22-2012, 05:56 PM
Cilic winning Queens is maybe the biggest vulturing of the season.

Vultures are the most annoying kind of players. Built the name on beating weaker opponents and can't give a fight to better players. Respect more chokers than vultures. Wawrinka is a good example of opposite case. Loosing more often to weaker opponents than these guys but at least all the time makes a competitive match against even against very top players. That's why he has a lot more respect in my book than those guys. Monaco is the worst of them though

Really, or are you just justifying Rosol. And Monaco is such a walk-over for Djokovic and Murray, or is only pushing Nadal that counts. Wow Wawrinka, congrats for taking 3 sets against Federer in 11 meetings and 1-10 record against Fed, and being 2-10 against Djokovic with one being a retirement and 5 sets won, 0-8 against Nadal never won a set.

misty1
07-22-2012, 05:56 PM
They were in the draw, that's what matters. Before you sign up for a tournament, you can't possibly know who you'll actually play against, only who will be in the draw. Tispy's selection of tournaments with such great players in the draw proves that he is not a vulture.

Ferrer selecting tournaments with no top 10 players in the draw (Barcelona the exception) and sometimes even no top 30 players exposes him as a vulture who's just looking for easy points. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

but when a player signs up for an event they cant possibly know who else is signing up either so that negates your point

misty1
07-22-2012, 05:59 PM
Cilic winning Queens is maybe the biggest vulturing of the season.

Vultures are the most annoying kind of players. Built the name on beating weaker opponents and can't give a fight to better players. Respect more chokers than vultures. Wawrinka is a good example of opposite case. Loosing more often to weaker opponents than these guys but at least most of the time makes a competitive match even against very top players. That's why he has a lot more respect in my book than those guys. Monaco is the worst of them though

there's a difference between vulturing and taking advantage of the draw. Theoretically cilic should have had to go through baghdatis, tipsarevic and tsonga to win, it is by no means his fault that they all lost before they got to him

dencod16
07-22-2012, 06:00 PM
but when a player signs up for an event they cant possibly know who else is signing up either so that negates your point

Or maybe he is thinking he phones them one by one. LOL.

samanosuke
07-22-2012, 06:01 PM
Mark Lenders bashing Ferrer and routing for Cilic :lol: . A guy who has won 8 challenger draw titles, a guy who reached slam semi final playing five set epics against 16 years old Tomug and two injured player, a guy who didn't make a single Masters 1000 semi final and still is a proud member of top 20 for a years in total

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 06:02 PM
can one be a vulture if they are actually good?

isn't the strict definition of a vulture- a player who sucks at slams against anyone with talent so should be ranked down- but plays MM tournies to get a higher ranking

muster connors and vilas all played MMs for easy points but they all did well at slams as well

doesn't style of play also factor in aswell?

I agree, players who are slam winners do not get vulture status, Connors won so many titles it's inevitable he would win some Micky mouse events. Style of play shouldn't factor.

3 words for you: this years Washington

That will become the biggest 500 mug event ;)

motorhead
07-22-2012, 06:08 PM
Ferrer:

Verdict: VULTURE




:haha::haha:

Singularity
07-22-2012, 06:12 PM
They were in the draw, that's what matters. Before you sign up for a tournament, you can't possibly know who you'll actually play against, only who will be in the draw. Tispy's selection of tournaments with such great players in the draw proves that he is not a vulture.

Ferrer selecting tournaments with no top 10 players in the draw (Barcelona the exception) and sometimes even no top 30 players exposes him as a vulture who's just looking for easy points. It's not that hard to understand, is it?
Even if you ignored all ATP 250/500 tournaments, Ferrer would still be #6 in the ranking, and #5 in the race. So really, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

emotion
07-22-2012, 06:18 PM
it's a total non issue
rankings really dont allow it to the degree most think, and the more the top players play, the better for tennis

and anyone using ferrer as an example, that's ridiculous, 2nd week at what, 8 straight slams?

Gagsquet
07-22-2012, 06:20 PM
Jealous people are jealous.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 06:23 PM
Vultures Gunna Vulture :shrug:

Nathaliia
07-22-2012, 06:24 PM
stupid term taken from wta forum :facepalm:

so top 20 is now forbidden to play other tournaments than mandatories or what?

and if you're a top 10 player and enter a tournament with 2-3 other from top 20 but they lose to mugs and you beat low ranks (doesn't matter if they're in good shape or talented like dimitrov, bellucci or smth)... are you responsible for other's losses in this tournament?

tealeaves
07-22-2012, 06:30 PM
Tipsarevic is a vulture(ie. whoring 250s but flopping in big events - only achieved one GS QF in his career). Ferrer plays a lot but he also has the top 5 GS results this year (2 QFs 1 SF) so I would give him a pass (yeah his post-Wimbledon schedule is a bit weird - Bastaad, REALLY? :o)

Del Potro did play a lot 250s last year but he needed it to get back in form. But apart from that he didn't play too many 250s this year

As for others, as long as they are not top 10 I don't care much about that

Henry Chinaski
07-22-2012, 06:56 PM
read the thread up until I saw the mug lenders criticise ferrer for preferring to try and win a title on his best surface to showing up to an event that doesn't suit his game for a fat appearance fee.

funny stuff

Allez
07-22-2012, 07:42 PM
Ferrer is NOT a vulture people...On a another note I did wonder how Connors won that many titles but apparently there was a period when he swooped in and vultured it up at the small tourneys :facepalm: Some would say that record deserves to have an asterix against it. They'd go on to say it is so sad that the only way anyone can ever break that record is by going on the vultures tour raking up 250 and lesser wins against non-opponents. They'd get no arguments from me :tape:

I mean just look at this crap from the ATP site...

1976 (13) Wembley (Indoor/Carpet) , Cologne (Indoor/Carpet) , US Open (Outdoor/Clay) , Indianapolis (Outdoor/Clay) , North Conway (Outdoor/Clay) , Washington (Outdoor/Clay) , Nottingham (Outdoor/Grass) , Las Vegas (Outdoor/Hard) , Denver WCT (Indoor/Carpet) , Palm Springs (Outdoor/Hard) , Hampton (Indoor/Carpet) , Philadelphia WCT (Indoor/Carpet) , Birmingham (Indoor/Carpet)

1975 (9) Maui (Outdoor/Hard) , Bermuda (Outdoor/Clay) , North Conway (Outdoor/Clay) , Denver WCT (Indoor/Carpet) , Hampton (Indoor/Carpet) , Boca Raton (Outdoor/Hard) , Salisbury (Indoor/Carpet) , Bahamas (Outdoor/) , Birmingham (Indoor/Carpet)

1974 (15) Johannesburg (Outdoor/Hard) , London (Indoor/Carpet) , Los Angeles (Outdoor/Hard) , US Open (Outdoor/Grass) , Indianapolis (Outdoor/Clay) , Wimbledon (Outdoor/Grass) , Manchester (Outdoor/Grass) , Tempe (Outdoor/Hard) , Salt Lake City (Indoor/) , Hampton (Indoor/Carpet) , Salisbury (Indoor/Carpet) , Birmingham (Indoor/Carpet) , Little Rock (Indoor/Carpet) , Roanoke (Indoor/) , Australian Open (Outdoor/Grass)

1973 (11) Johannesburg (Outdoor/Hard) , Quebec (/) , Los Angeles (Outdoor/Hard) , Columbus (Outdoor/Hard) , Boston (Outdoor/Hard) , Paramus (Indoor/Hard) , Hampton (Indoor/Hard) , Salisbury (Indoor/Hard) , Salt Lake City (Indoor/Hard) , Roanoke (Outdoor/Hard) , Baltimore (Indoor/Hard)

More of the same @ http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Co/J/Jimmy-Connors.aspx?t=tf

Verdict: Greatest Vulture Of All Time (GVOAT) :worship:

Pirata.
07-22-2012, 07:43 PM
Del Potro enters non-mandatory tournaments with great players in the draw: Federer, Berdych, Tsonga, Tipsy

:facepalm:

What about doing his job in tournaments with quality field and not vulturing on challenger level fields?

WTF - Semifinals
AO - Quarterfinals
RG - Semifinals
W - Quarterfinals
Indian Wells - 3R
Miami - Quarterfinals
Monte Carlo - 2R
Madrid - Quarterfinals
Rome - Semifinals

Looks like he's doing his job just fine.

Nole Rules
07-22-2012, 08:19 PM
I'll use two players to make my point here: Ferrer and Del Potro, using their 250 and 500 tournaments. These two are pretty much perfect to illustrate what a vulture and a non-vulture is.

Ferrer:

Won Auckland by beating #74, #80, #24, #68.

Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11

Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27

Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.

Won Scrub Hertogenbosh by beating #244, #62, #112, #60 and #145

Won Bastaad by beating #128, #199, #69 and #10.


So basically 1800 of his 4100 ranking points for the year (almost 50%) come from tournaments where he faced scrubs. The only tournaments that even had top 10 players in the draw were Barcelona and Bastaad (who had Almagro, a guy who keeps going in and out of the top 10, not exactly a solid top 10er).

Verdict: VULTURE


Del Potro:

Rotterdam Final by beating #47, #105, #24 and Berdych (#7). Lost final to Federer.

Won Marseille by beating #40, #15, Tsonga (#6) and #50

Dubai semis by beating #20, #143, Tsonga (#5), lost to Federer.

Won Estoril by beating #90, #69, #22 and #18


So he entered Rotterdam with Federer and Berdych in the draw, Marseille with Tsonga and Tipsy in the draw, Dubai with 8 top 10 players in the draw. Estoril was admittedly weak with Gasquet and Wawrinka as second and third seeds, but still stronger than the vast majority of the tournaments Ferrer entered. Also feel free to compare the rankings of the players faced.

Verdict: NOT A VULTURE


It's really simple really.

:hatoff:

Ferrer, Monaco and Almagro are the worst vultures.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 08:32 PM
:hatoff:

Ferrer, Monaco and Almagro are the worst vultures.

worst because they are winning tournaments they are suppose to. Well they are the best vultures, unlike many failed vultures.

v-money
07-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I'll use two players to make my point here: Ferrer and Del Potro, using their 250 and 500 tournaments. These two are pretty much perfect to illustrate what a vulture and a non-vulture is.

Ferrer:

Won Auckland by beating #74, #80, #24, #68.

Won Buenos Aires by beating #237, #162, #263, #85 and #11

Won Acapulco by beating #54, #50, #80 and #27

Barcelona final by beating #789, #69, #16 and #25.

Won Scrub Hertogenbosh by beating #244, #62, #112, #60 and #145

Won Bastaad by beating #128, #199, #69 and #10.


So basically 1800 of his 4100 ranking points for the year (almost 50%) come from tournaments where he faced scrubs. The only tournaments that even had top 10 players in the draw were Barcelona and Bastaad (who had Almagro, a guy who keeps going in and out of the top 10, not exactly a solid top 10er).

Verdict: VULTURE


Del Potro:

Rotterdam Final by beating #47, #105, #24 and Berdych (#7). Lost final to Federer.

Won Marseille by beating #40, #15, Tsonga (#6) and #50

Dubai semis by beating #20, #143, Tsonga (#5), lost to Federer.

Won Estoril by beating #90, #69, #22 and #18


So he entered Rotterdam with Federer and Berdych in the draw, Marseille with Tsonga and Tipsy in the draw, Dubai with 8 top 10 players in the draw. Estoril was admittedly weak with Gasquet and Wawrinka as second and third seeds, but still stronger than the vast majority of the tournaments Ferrer entered. Also feel free to compare the rankings of the players faced.

Verdict: NOT A VULTURE


It's really simple really.

It is really simple. One is a player that is 2275 pts clear of the other in the 1-year ranking and 1445 pts clear in the YTD rankings. All I see is one player playing within his abilities and another player trying to run with the big boys but falling short. You can guess which player is Del Potro and which is Ferrer.

Also your fun fact that Ferrer's ranking is totally built on ATP 250 and 500's, consider that Del Potro's one year ranking has a larger contribution from 250's and 500's (36%) than Ferrer's one year ranking (33%). Ferrer does pretty well at most tournaments he enters, not just low pointers.

This comparison looks even funnier considerings that Ferrer is 2-0 on the year against Del Potro. Maybe a vulture but he's been the better player this year, amongst the two.

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 09:07 PM
It is really simple. One is a player that is 2275 pts clear of the other in the 1-year ranking and 1445 pts clear in the YTD rankings. All I see is one player playing within his abilities and another player trying to run with the big boys but falling short. You can guess which player is Del Potro and which is Ferrer.

Also your fun fact that Ferrer's ranking is totally built on ATP 250 and 500's, consider that Del Potro's one year ranking has a larger contribution from 250's and 500's (36%) than Ferrer's one year ranking (33%). Ferrer does pretty well at most tournaments he enters, not just low pointers.

This comparison looks even funnier considerings that Ferrer is 2-0 on the year against Del Potro. Maybe a vulture but he's been the better player this year, amongst the two.

Exactly. One player is young and ambitious, and he knows that if he ever wants to return to his top level and compete for major titles he needs to be facing the top players. He will lose more often and not collect as many points of course, but it's the attitude a top player must have; you can never progress and develop into a contender if you're just facing scrubs.

The other player, on the other hand, shows no ambition, runs away from the top players and only tries to secure his ranking by playing in tournaments with low level fields. You summed it up perfectly there.

dencod16
07-22-2012, 09:17 PM
Exactly. One player is young and ambitious, and he knows that if he ever wants to return to his top level and compete for major titles he needs to be facing the top players. He will lose more often and not collect as many points of course, but it's the attitude a top player must have; you can never progress and develop into a contender if you're just facing scrubs.

The other player, on the other hand, shows no ambition, runs away from the top players and only tries to secure his ranking by playing in tournaments with low level fields. You summed it up perfectly there.

Yeah, and take away every tournament outside Masters and Slams still far better results than Del Potro. And look at what he checked he ones that agrees with him, but the one that complete berates his argument he completely ignores.

Julián Santiago
07-22-2012, 09:31 PM
:facepalm:

WTF - Semifinals
AO - Quarterfinals
RG - Semifinals
W - Quarterfinals
Indian Wells - 3R
Miami - Quarterfinals
Monte Carlo - 2R
Madrid - Quarterfinals
Rome - Semifinals

Looks like he's doing his job just fine.

/thread

:wavey: Mug Lenders

Pirata.
07-22-2012, 09:50 PM
/thread

:wavey: Mug Lenders

Even more specifically:

WTF - Semifinals, lost to Federer (who won)
AO - Quarterfinals, lost to Djokovic (who won)
RG - Semifinals, lost to Nadal (who won)
W - Quarterfinals, lost to Murray (who made the final)

Indian Wells - 3R, lost to Istomin :facepalm:
Miami - Quarterfinals, lost to Djokovic (who won)
Monte Carlo - 2R, lost to Bellucci :facepalm:
Madrid - Quarterfinals, lost to Federer (who won)
Rome - Semifinals, lost to Nadal (who won)

Aside from two random moronic losses, Ferrer has only lost in big events to the person who went on to win the event, aside from Wimbledon but Murray still made the final.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 09:57 PM
Not only the above but compare to Murray;

WTF- Round Robin
AO - SF
Indian Wells - 2nd Round
Miami - F
Monte Carlo - QF
Rome - R3
FO - QF
Wimbledon -F

There isn't a lot different really.

Oh and outside of those Ferrer won his Grass 250, got to Final of Barca 500 and won his clay and pre AO hard 250 and 500 whilst Muzzah lost in QF of Barca, 1r of Queens, final of Dubai and only won Brisbane so he can't even vulture better than Ferrer.

Chase Visa
07-22-2012, 10:02 PM
How many players are truly vultures though? I know Ferrer gets bagged out a lot for this but he still has good results at Slams. Monaco feels a little bit like a vulture to some degree though, but his ranking was fairly low before recently. Tipsy's cut back on the vulturing quite a bit this season, too.

Pirata.
07-22-2012, 10:05 PM
so he can't even vulture better than Ferrer.

Always the bridesmaid :lol:

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 10:09 PM
How many players are truly vultures though? I know Ferrer gets bagged out a lot for this but he still has good results at Slams. Monaco feels a little bit like a vulture to some degree though, but his ranking was fairly low before recently. Tipsy's cut back on the vulturing quite a bit this season, too.

Andy Roddick :p

Always the bridesmaid :lol:

:yeah: if there was one thing I had to choose to describe my favourite active player Muzzah it's would be a plate. A runners up plate to be specific :lol:

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 10:11 PM
Oh and outside of those Ferrer won his Grass 250, got to Final of Barca 500 and won his clay and pre AO hard 250 and 500 whilst Muzzah lost in QF of Barca, 1r of Queens, final of Dubai and only won Brisbane so he can't even vulture better than Ferrer.

No one can. There's a reason why Vulturrer is the king of all vultures. Only Boredo in his prime could give him a run for his money, but even he fell short.

Not saying Vulturray hasn't done some fine vulturing of his own during the years, but can't beat the King here, he's thoroughly overmatched :p

Pirata.
07-22-2012, 10:30 PM
Dear god :facepalm:

Coolio_Jack
07-22-2012, 10:35 PM
Players who fail in their vultures attempts more deserving of their ranking than the ones that successfully vulture. :rolleyes:

Only on MTF folks, only on MTF...

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 10:37 PM
No one can. There's a reason why Vulturrer is the king of all vultures. Only Boredo in his prime could give him a run for his money, but even he fell short.

Not saying Vulturray hasn't done some fine vulturing of his own during the years, but can't beat the King here, he's thoroughly overmatched :p

Vulturray :haha:

Murray can be accused of many things but Vultering? Last and this year his optional events were a warm up in Brisbane, Dubai (where 3 of the big 4 played), Barca (where Nadal plays), Queens (with Jo and Andy and others), Tokyo (With Rafa and Jo and David and others) and Basel (3 of the big 4).

Mark Lenders
07-22-2012, 10:41 PM
Vulturray :haha:

Murray can be accused of many things but Vultering? Last and this year his optional events were a warm up in Brisbane, Dubai (where 3 of the big 4 played), Barca (where Nadal plays), Queens (with Jo and Andy and others), Tokyo (With Rafa and Jo and David and others) and Basel (3 of the big 4).

The :p at the end was there for a reason, I was kidding, just felt like inserting vulture in Murray's name :p

Murray is definitely not a vulture, he has been winning 2 Masters and reaching a Slam final every year, he has more than earned his ranking fair and square.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 10:43 PM
The :p at the end was there for a reason, I was kidding, just felt like inserting vulture in Murray's name :p

Murray is definitely not a vulture, he has been winning 2 Masters and reaching a Slam final every year, he has more than earned his ranking fair and square.

Although I guess you could argue Shanghai is his yearly Vultured Masters event so actually....plus Ferrer made it to the final last year......:p

Henry Chinaski
07-22-2012, 10:44 PM
I wonder if it ever occurred to Lenders that Ferrer is so fit and healthy at 30 years of age, despite a style of tennis that would suggest a short career, partially because he spends his spring on clay courts rather than wrecking his joints on concrete.

Looner
07-22-2012, 10:44 PM
Man, Lenders does despise Ferrer to a hilarious extent but I think he's outmanoeuvred so many of you in subtlety trolling this thread. I, for one, am enjoying it all the way :angel:.

AnnaK_4ever
07-22-2012, 10:53 PM
Just to put some things into perspective -- that's how many MM titles top-players won and how many Top-10 wins they scored at MM level:

Federer 32 titles / 21 Top-10 wins
Roddick 26 titles / 4 Top-10 wins
Hewitt 22 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Nadal 18 titles / 12 Top-10 wins
Davydenko 17 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Ferrer 16 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Murray 14 titles / 14 Top-10 wins
Djokovic 13 titles / 10 Top-10 wins
Haas 12 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Almagro 12 titles / 5 Top-10 wins
Ferrero 11 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Blake 10 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Del Potro 10 titles / 7 top-10 wins
Simon 10 titles / 6 Top-10 wins

Roddick, Davydenko, Ferrer and Almagro are the most likely to chose the weakest MM events or benefit from the draw falling apart.

FleetSeb
07-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Er, but for some of those that complain, the draw given is not a problem. Just the fact that it seems like some players play some of these events in order to avoid the best players. The Doha case for example, where several of the top players play their first ATP event of the year and players like Ferrer choose to play at Auckland. I mean in that particular event, Ferrer lost just one set and won every single set with a score of 6-3 or 6-4 bar one match giving him a scoreline of 6-2.. I have no problem with playing these small events here or there, and certainly when players do it once in a while it is fine, but some seem to do it like I said consistently in order to avoid the top players and therefore their ranking/hype may be inflated :shrug:

EDIT: Ferrer is a bad example, because he certainly belongs at the top, no question about that, but there are others.

Maybe he played Auckland because the conditions are closer to what it is like at the AO?

Murray (a 2 time winner in Doha no-less) decided that it was too cold there compared to Melbourne so stopped playing. Maybe Ferru wasn't going to Doha because he doesn't believe it is great preparation (+ the fact that I don't think he is especially swayed by appearance fees, nor is he offered massive ones I imagine).

There is always far more to tournament choice than simply 'I don't want to face the top players'. These are professional athletes, there's far more ego in them than you give them credit for. Most believe they can beat the top players, even if they don't manage to keep that belief when it actually comes to the match.

TigerTim
07-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Maybe he played Auckland because the conditions are closer to what it is like at the AO?

Murray (a 2 time winner in Doha no-less) decided that it was too cold there compared to Melbourne so stopped playing. Maybe Ferru wasn't going to Doha because he doesn't believe it is great preparation (+ the fact that I don't think he is especially swayed by appearance fees, nor is he offered massive ones I imagine).

There is always far more to tournament choice than simply 'I don't want to face the top players'. These are professional athletes, there's far more ego in them than you give them credit for. Most believe they can beat the top players, even if they don't manage to keep that belief when it actually comes to the match.

No. Trust me I used to live in Auckland and it gets to 25C on average in the summer, Melbourne gets much hotter so its not down to the weather, or prep, the tourney ends days before the AO unlike any other AO warm up.

tommyg6
07-22-2012, 11:07 PM
I guess Ferrer figured playing in Doha would be too much of a hassle to prepare for the Australian Open whereas New Zealand was right next door to Australia. :help:

Henry Chinaski
07-22-2012, 11:28 PM
don't forget the superstition factor.

if he has a good oz open after playing well in auckland, it's natural he'll go back the following year.

and even though sydney always has a stronger entry list, players who do well in auckland tend to do much, much better in melbourne than those who do well in sydney

leng jai
07-22-2012, 11:50 PM
Just to put some things into perspective -- that's how many MM titles top-players won and how many Top-10 wins they scored at MM level:

Federer 32 titles / 21 Top-10 wins
Roddick 26 titles / 4 Top-10 wins
Hewitt 22 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Nadal 18 titles / 12 Top-10 wins
Davydenko 17 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Ferrer 16 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Murray 14 titles / 14 Top-10 wins
Djokovic 13 titles / 10 Top-10 wins
Haas 12 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Almagro 12 titles / 5 Top-10 wins
Ferrero 11 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Blake 10 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Del Potro 10 titles / 7 top-10 wins
Simon 10 titles / 6 Top-10 wins

Roddick, Davydenko, Ferrer and Almagro are the most likely to chose the weakest MM events or benefit from the draw falling apart.

Interesting stats. Roddick :haha:

tommyg6
07-23-2012, 12:01 AM
Interesting stats. Roddick :haha:

I guess that makes A-Rod the Vulture GOAT. :devil:

tealeaves
07-23-2012, 12:59 AM
Wait are 500s counted as MM now? Delpo only has 7 250s

leng jai
07-23-2012, 01:01 AM
In that list yes.

Chase Visa
07-23-2012, 06:19 AM
Roddick vulturing has something to do with his nationality, no?

dencod16
07-23-2012, 06:24 AM
Roddick vulturing has something to do with his nationality, no?

I think so, if it US had more top players he would face more top players. The same with clay courters i think.

henke007
07-23-2012, 07:59 AM
Even if Ferrer made a slamfinal he would still be Vulture in chief in Lenders book ;)

Anyway since Soderlings career ended, there is what you would call a Vulture spot open in the top 10. Monaco just took it for now.

Asadinator
07-23-2012, 08:13 AM
Vulturing is irrelevant on the ATP tour, because the top players don't do it. Not like at WTA where half of the Top 10 are there because of smaller tournaments.

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 08:14 AM
Just to put some things into perspective -- that's how many MM titles top-players won and how many Top-10 wins they scored at MM level:

Federer 32 titles / 21 Top-10 wins
Roddick 26 titles / 4 Top-10 wins
Hewitt 22 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Nadal 18 titles / 12 Top-10 wins
Davydenko 17 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Ferrer 16 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Murray 14 titles / 14 Top-10 wins
Djokovic 13 titles / 10 Top-10 wins
Haas 12 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Almagro 12 titles / 5 Top-10 wins
Ferrero 11 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Blake 10 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Del Potro 10 titles / 7 top-10 wins
Simon 10 titles / 6 Top-10 wins

Roddick, Davydenko, Ferrer and Almagro are the most likely to chose the weakest MM events or benefit from the draw falling apart.

Federer cant have 32 MM Titles, he got 17 slams+6 YEC+20 master series+12 500 events=55 big titles.

You know Dubai and Basel are hardly mickey mouse events? I wouldnt even call Queens/Halle tournements made for vulturing.

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 08:21 AM
can one be a vulture if they are actually good?

isn't the strict definition of a vulture- a player who sucks at slams against anyone with talent so should be ranked down- but plays MM tournies to get a higher ranking

muster connors and vilas all played MMs for easy points but they all did well at slams as well

doesn't style of play also factor in aswell?

Ofcourse very good players can vulture, even alltime greats like Connors. In fact Connors' and Vilas vulturing made an impact on tennis history denying Borg many weeks and years as world number one.

Muster unlike the other 2 was never very good in slams (not even RG), his topclass vulturing on claycourts no one played probably caused him to still today be talked as one of the greatest claycourters of all time.

leng jai
07-23-2012, 08:32 AM
What's the term for players who win gimp tournaments with ungimp fields? Idiots? Haas is a huge idiot for beating 19 top 10 players for 12 mickey mouse titles.

scoobs
07-23-2012, 08:33 AM
It's a good job some players do "vulture" or the tour would be about 15 events.

BroTree123
07-23-2012, 08:39 AM
One of my favourite threads.

BackhandDTL
07-23-2012, 08:40 AM
I think events like these depend entirely on what people take out of them.

Taking it for what it is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a player taking titles like these. They're professional events filled with professional players, and the money and trophies awarded to the victor are well earned.

If, on the other hand, people use wins like these to blow smoke up a player's ass, that's obviously a problem. For example, I recently had a debate with a guy who claimed that Ferrer has been the third best clay courter every year since 2006. As part of his argument, he flaunted Ferrer's win percentage on clay court. It's a hollow argument because we all know where most of those wins have been accumulated. You're simply not going to convince anyone that Ferrer is a top clay court player because he wins events like Acapulco and Bastad while the top players are nowhere to be found. Kudos for beating the guys in front of him, but let's not use that to glorify him.

In short, it's all about what you take away from these events. In general, it's good for any player to win any professional tournament, but it'd be wrong to consider them world-beaters for events like these.

AnnaK_4ever
07-23-2012, 09:25 AM
Federer cant have 32 MM Titles, he got 17 slams+6 YEC+20 master series+12 500 events=55 big titles.

You know Dubai and Basel are hardly mickey mouse events? I wouldnt even call Queens/Halle tournements made for vulturing.

MM = any tournament outside GS/YEC/Masters Series.

TBkeeper
07-23-2012, 09:36 AM
MM = any tournament outside GS/YEC/Masters Series.

But Monte carlo is non - mandatory Masters ....

Lazyking
07-23-2012, 09:54 AM
I think events like these depend entirely on what people take out of them.

Taking it for what it is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a player taking titles like these. They're professional events filled with professional players, and the money and trophies awarded to the victor are well earned.

If, on the other hand, people use wins like these to blow smoke up a player's ass, that's obviously a problem. For example, I recently had a debate with a guy who claimed that Ferrer has been the third best clay courter every year since 2006. As part of his argument, he flaunted Ferrer's win percentage on clay court. It's a hollow argument because we all know where most of those wins have been accumulated. You're simply not going to convince anyone that Ferrer is a top clay court player because he wins events like Acapulco and Bastad while the top players are nowhere to be found. Kudos for beating the guys in front of him, but let's not use that to glorify him.

In short, it's all about what you take away from these events. In general, it's good for any player to win any professional tournament, but it'd be wrong to consider them world-beaters for events like these.

i would agree with most of this but would say further that if you're in the QF or better at slam events/bigger events on tour regualerly, then it doesn't matter how much vulturing you do.. the player should be respected as a top player. I've noticed on here how winning the small tournments isn't respected..well winning any tournment is diffucult and not everyone can win a slam. The trio hasn't lost a slam in close to three years...

TigerTim
07-23-2012, 10:06 AM
Murray needs to sort his Vulturing out. 14 non mandatories played and he's had to face a top ten on the way to winning each one, sort it out Muzzah!

BackhandDTL
07-23-2012, 10:28 AM
i would agree with most of this but would say further that if you're in the QF or better at slam events/bigger events on tour regualerly, then it doesn't matter how much vulturing you do.. the player should be respected as a top player. I've noticed on here how winning the small tournments isn't respected..well winning any tournment is diffucult and not everyone can win a slam. The trio hasn't lost a slam in close to three years...

This is true, and it's something that I should have clarified in my own post. Someone like Ferrer, who I mentioned in my previous post, deserves a lot of respect as a top player anyway because he's consistently performing well on the bigger stages against most players as of late. A player can rack up the smaller events and still earn top honors, but I don't necessarily think they (should) earn such regard because they're winning 250s and so forth.


Also, and unrelated to the above, we should be careful not to judge these tournaments from afar. That list featuring the number of top ten players a title-winner takes down in a smaller event doesn't tell the whole story. Someone like Roddick, for instance, has entered Queen's Club every year since 2003, and that venue has been the premiere grass event for most top players for years (until recently, maybe). So not only did he (and most others) not shy away from tougher draws, but he would beat guys like then-#11 Hewitt and then-#80-ish Ancic ('04 Queen's), and a list of others who were either on the verge of the top ten, or simply much better than their ranking would suggest.

Chris Kuerten
07-23-2012, 10:44 AM
It's the most stupid thing on MTF, hands down. So-called tennis fans outraged because tennis players appear at tennis tournaments.This.

Win: vulture
Lose: mug

Chip & Charge
07-23-2012, 10:49 AM
I only see positives to high ranked players playing in smaller tournaments:
- Tennis is these players jobs, what is wrong with them maximizing their income before they retire?
- For fans who actually go and watch live it must be a great thrill for them to be able to see some of the top players in the world
-It is a good opportunity for the lower ranked players to test themselves against the cream of the crop and see how far they are off being at the top of the ATP

This term vulturing is a ridiculous statement aimed at tennis players playing tennis :confused:

Juz78
07-23-2012, 01:16 PM
Muster unlike the other 2 was never very good in slams (not even RG)

You use the word "never"... so when he won RG he wasn't very good...

I must say I'm struggling with this one...help me out please.

tommyg6
07-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Tommyg6's Top 5 Vultures of the Week

1. Ferrer, Esp (did not vulture, vultured enough rations from Bastad 2 weeks ago, is understandably well fed)
2. del Potro, Arg (did not play)
3. Monaco, Arg (won Hamburg Open last week)
4. Almagro, Esp (reached semis Hamburg Open last week)
5. Roddick, Usa (won Atlanta Open)

Roger the Dodger
07-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Federer cant have 32 MM Titles, he got 17 slams+6 YEC+20 master series+12 500 events=55 big titles.

You know Dubai and Basel are hardly mickey mouse events? I wouldnt even call Queens/Halle tournements made for vulturing.

True. Dubai, Basel, Halle etc are prestigious smaller tournaments. The only time Roger recently vultured a tournament was in Stockholm. Maybe, ate into Soderling's share of the platter there.

duarte_a
07-23-2012, 02:35 PM
MM = any tournament outside GS/YEC/Masters Series.

But Monte carlo is non - mandatory Masters ....

MC = MM then according to the logic posted above.

TigerTim
07-23-2012, 02:38 PM
MC = MM then according to the logic posted above.

it is, so is Mughai tbh, in fact I would say all clay toruneys are also MM so that leaves us with 11 Tourneys that arn't MM imo :p

flexeter
07-23-2012, 02:41 PM
this must be the most retarded thread in MTF history

Action Jackson
07-23-2012, 02:46 PM
How dare tennis players play tournaments and some of them even win matches,

Lets just have the top 4 play in tents like a travelling circus, play exhos for 9 months in addition to the Slams. They will play best of 7 matches, winners then play in best of 7 matches in the final.

TigerTim
07-23-2012, 02:47 PM
How dare tennis players play tournaments and some of them even win matches,

Lets just have the top 4 play in tents like a travelling circus, play exhos for 9 months in addition to the Slams. They will play best of 7 matches, winners then play in best of 7 matches in the final.

Sounds like the 50s and early 60s to me ;)

Action Jackson
07-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Sounds like the 50s and early 60s to me ;)

More than 4 players were competitive then.

tommyg6
07-23-2012, 03:08 PM
Ferrer is the mother vulture

Action Jackson
07-23-2012, 03:14 PM
tommyg once again showing Mensa qualities or is that trolling. Ferrer's semi final and QF at Slams haven't helped his ranking at all.

abraxas21
07-23-2012, 04:03 PM
Viņa del Mar/Santiago ATP = GOAT tournament

all the rest, including GS, = MM.

stebs
07-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Just to put some things into perspective -- that's how many MM titles top-players won and how many Top-10 wins they scored at MM level:

Federer 32 titles / 21 Top-10 wins
Roddick 26 titles / 4 Top-10 wins
Hewitt 22 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Nadal 18 titles / 12 Top-10 wins
Davydenko 17 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Ferrer 16 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Murray 14 titles / 14 Top-10 wins
Djokovic 13 titles / 10 Top-10 wins
Haas 12 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Almagro 12 titles / 5 Top-10 wins
Ferrero 11 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Blake 10 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Del Potro 10 titles / 7 top-10 wins
Simon 10 titles / 6 Top-10 wins

Roddick, Davydenko, Ferrer and Almagro are the most likely to chose the weakest MM events or benefit from the draw falling apart.

I've got no time for the 'vulture' label but this makes for interesting reading. I can barely believe how big a disparity there is between Roddick and Haas. The former beats a top 10 player once out of every 6.5 tournaments he wins at this level. Haas beats a top 10 player once every 0.63 tournaments. So tournaments Haas wins he is facing top 10 players very nearly 10x as frequently as Roddick is. Funny Davydenko 'vulturing' the smaller tournaments without beating too many top players but then when he wins bigger events he tends to beat very good opponents.

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 05:25 PM
Tipsarevic and Monaco have really done the heavy vulturing out there, Ferrer is actually good everywhere he goes and had a great year in all kind of tournaments, his ranking would be great even without alot of the smaller tournaments.

Problem is you dont get extra points from beating top 10s anymore, Hamburg counts for as much as winning Dubai which is absurd. All small american hardcourt tournaments and after Wimbledon claycourt tournaments leads nowhere and are pretty pointless without any top players at all competing, there should be no 500s in this period of time, Halle/Queens/Doha should be 500s and Memphis/Washington/Hamburg should be 250s.

Dougie
07-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Tipsarevic and Monaco have really done the heavy vulturing out there, Ferrer is actually good everywhere he goes and had a great year in all kind of tournaments, his ranking would be great even without alot of the smaller tournaments.

Problem is you dont get extra points from beating top 10s anymore, Hamburg counts for as much as winning Dubai which is absurd.

No, whatīs absurd is how the ATP has screwed Hamburg, and how Dubaiīs field is distorted by the appearance fees supplied by the Arabs. You think the top players go to Dubai because they want to play where the field is strong? I canīt think of anything more unfair than the idea of Hamburg getting screwed in point distribution as well.

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 05:36 PM
No, whatīs absurd is how the ATP has screwed Hamburg, and how Dubaiīs field is distorted by the appearance fees supplied by the Arabs. You think the top players go to Dubai because they want to play where the field is strong? I canīt think of anything more unfair than the idea of Hamburg getting screwed in point distribution as well.

I dont like how Hamburg is getting screwed, but it is one horrible date for top players to play claycourt tennis. Hamburg should be played sometime before RG or change surface.

Maybe even indoor claycourt tennis the week before Monta Carlo.

AnnaK_4ever
07-23-2012, 07:19 PM
I've got no time for the 'vulture' label but this makes for interesting reading. I can barely believe how big a disparity there is between Roddick and Haas. The former beats a top 10 player once out of every 6.5 tournaments he wins at this level. Haas beats a top 10 player once every 0.63 tournaments. So tournaments Haas wins he is facing top 10 players very nearly 10x as frequently as Roddick is. Funny Davydenko 'vulturing' the smaller tournaments without beating too many top players but then when he wins bigger events he tends to beat very good opponents.

Davydenko is an interesting case. In Masters Series/1000 events he has only 9 Top-10 wins, yet it was enough for winning 3 Masters titles. For comparison -- Gasquet has 11 Top-10 wins but no titles and only 2 RU finishes, Ferrer has 16 Top-10 wins but only 3 RUs.
More than 1/3 of his Top-10 wins (not counting team events) Davydenko has scored at YEC.

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 10:14 PM
More than 4 players were competitive then.

It really does sound like the 50s pro circuit head to head events which involved the greatest players of the era and was more important than pro majors or amateur slams. Kramer and Segura in 1953 played each other 95 times in the head to head tour involving only the two of them, Kramer winning 54-41.

If more than 4 players were competitive it must be in the amateur circuit because the pro circuit was always all about 2-3 big stars.

If Nadal, Federer and Djokovic would play head to head events, the "top3less" ATP tour would become very competitive indeed with 10-15 players able to win slams.

Time Violation
07-23-2012, 10:27 PM
Tipsarevic and Monaco have really done the heavy vulturing out there, Ferrer is actually good everywhere he goes and had a great year in all kind of tournaments, his ranking would be great even without alot of the smaller tournaments.

This time last year Tipsarevic was still without an ATP title in his whole career, and now he's already vulturing, you can't be serious? :)

TBkeeper
07-23-2012, 11:03 PM
Davydenko is an interesting case. In Masters Series/1000 events he has only 9 Top-10 wins, yet it was enough for winning 3 Masters titles. For comparison -- Gasquet has 11 Top-10 wins but no titles and only 2 RU finishes, Ferrer has 16 Top-10 wins but only 3 RUs.
More than 1/3 of his Top-10 wins (not counting team events) Davydenko has scored at YEC.

Interesting case --> interesting player i see no strange thing here ...

sexybeast
07-23-2012, 11:16 PM
This time last year Tipsarevic was still without an ATP title in his whole career, and now he's already vulturing, you can't be serious? :)

I always considered Tipsarevic a talented player, but talented player and even great players can vulture too in really small venue for easy points. It is not so much that Tipsy cant beat top 10 players, he can and he has done it many times unlike the mug named Monaco, so it was unfair to pair him with Monaco.

Still Tipsy got the last 12 months 3 250 titles and 3 finals in MM events, in these 6 events Tipsarevic only beat two top 30 player and that was Troicki and Monaco (Two of the most unworthy top 30 players).

dencod16
07-24-2012, 04:56 AM
I always considered Tipsarevic a talented player, but talented player and even great players can vulture too in really small venue for easy points. It is not so much that Tipsy cant beat top 10 players, he can and he has done it many times unlike the mug named Monaco, so it was unfair to pair him with Monaco.

Still Tipsy got the last 12 months 3 250 titles and 3 finals in MM events, in these 6 events Tipsarevic only beat two top 30 player and that was Troicki and Monaco (Two of the most unworthy top 30 players).

Its unfair the fact that all his countable tournaments are 250's. Yeah it's unfair for Monaco who has 500 events in his points.

Arkulari
07-24-2012, 05:34 AM
Roddick is vulturing a lot lately, tournaments like Memphis & Atlanta...

Lazyking
07-24-2012, 06:01 AM
How is outside the top ten player on the decline of his career vulturing?

Blue Heart24
07-24-2012, 06:01 AM
Roddick is vulturing a lot lately, tournaments like Memphis & Atlanta...

Roddick was vulturing a lot whole his career,winning MM events in USA.

leng jai
07-24-2012, 06:02 AM
Roddick is vulturing a lot lately, tournaments like Memphis & Atlanta...

Federer 32 titles / 21 Top-10 wins
Roddick 26 titles / 4 Top-10 wins
Hewitt 22 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Nadal 18 titles / 12 Top-10 wins
Davydenko 17 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Ferrer 16 titles / 6 Top-10 wins
Murray 14 titles / 14 Top-10 wins
Djokovic 13 titles / 10 Top-10 wins
Haas 12 titles / 19 Top-10 wins
Almagro 12 titles / 5 Top-10 wins
Ferrero 11 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Blake 10 titles / 9 Top-10 wins
Del Potro 10 titles / 7 top-10 wins
Simon 10 titles / 6 Top-10 wins

Lately?

Arkulari
07-24-2012, 06:03 AM
How is outside the top ten player on the decline of his career vulturing?

He plays those crap events to get easy points, same as Ferrer or Tipsarevic do :shrug:

Roddick fits the vulture definition here.

Lazyking
07-24-2012, 06:05 AM
Question. How can a player vulture tournaments that won't count towards their ranking? Maybe just maybe they play small tournys cause they want the money.. you know the the thing that allows them to have a good living lol.

Lazyking
07-24-2012, 06:08 AM
He plays those crap events to get easy points, same as Ferrer or Tipsarevic do :shrug:

Roddick fits the vulture definition here.

Difference is, those players are in the top ten whereas roddick is floundering and was falling fast.. this MM tournys won't help him enough..

I hate this idea of vulturing but Roddick currently can't be accused as such. Not to mention, these tournaments are in the states, his home country.. Why wouldn't you play at home, easier travel, fan support..

out_here_grindin
07-24-2012, 06:17 AM
Roddick is vulturing a lot lately, tournaments like Memphis & Atlanta...

It's not a challenger. He wasn't even the top seed

BroTree123
07-24-2012, 06:19 AM
It's a joke to consider Mugsarevic as a vulture. You can't call someone a vulture (no matter what they're ranked) if they struggle to even win any title against any given player.

Vultures are those who can win/take advantage of these smaller tournaments or tournaments with weak draws with their eyes closed and they know it. And they know that they are capable of tackling much tougher tournaments.

Arkulari
07-24-2012, 06:35 AM
Difference is, those players are in the top ten whereas roddick is floundering and was falling fast.. this MM tournys won't help him enough..

I hate this idea of vulturing but Roddick currently can't be accused as such. Not to mention, these tournaments are in the states, his home country.. Why wouldn't you play at home, easier travel, fan support..

Same as european players in Europe or SA players in South America ;)

And winning MM tournaments can definitely help him staying in the top 25, specially seeing how not deep the tour is below the top 4

Time Violation
07-24-2012, 06:56 AM
It's a joke to consider Mugsarevic as a vulture. You can't call someone a vulture (no matter what they're ranked) if they struggle to even win any title against any given player.

Yup, Tipsy was able to pull some big wins, but usually they were directly followed by lame defeats, he was too inconsistent. Winning any title with any competition was/is huge for him :)

TigerTim
07-24-2012, 08:05 AM
DUCK = King Vulture!

AnnaK_4ever
07-24-2012, 10:35 AM
Just to put some things into perspective -- that's how many MM titles top-players won and how many Top-10 wins they scored at MM level:


Sorry for self-quoting but I'd like to post another chart on the similar topic. Only this time it's about how many Top-10 wins players scored during all their title runs (the previous list counted Top-10 wins at all MM tournaments).
Active players with 10 and more singles titles listed.

Top-10 wins per title run (all)

Player Titles Top-10 wins Av.Top-10 win
during title runs per title run

R Federer 75 112 1.493
N Djokovic 30 40 1.333
R Nadal 50 64 1.280
D Nalbandian 11 14 1.273
A Murray 22 24 1.091
L Hewitt 28 25 0.893
T Haas 13 11 0.846
R Soderling 10 8 0.800
N Davydenko 21 13 0.619
JM Del Potro 11 6 0.545
JC Ferrero 16 8 0.500
J Blake 10 4 0.400
N Almagro 12 4 0.333
A Roddick 32 9 0.281
T Robredo 10 2 0.200
D Ferrer 16 3 0.188
G Simon 10 1 0.100


Top-10 wins per title run (excluding YEC)

Player Titles Top-10 wins Av.Top-10 win
during title runs per title run

R Nadal 50 64 1.280
N Djokovic 29 36 1.241
R Federer 69 83 1.203
A Murray 22 24 1.091
D Nalbandian 10 10 1.000
T Haas 13 11 0.846
R Soderling 10 8 0.800
L Hewitt 26 17 0.654
JM Del Potro 11 6 0.545
JC Ferrero 16 8 0.500
N Davydenko 20 9 0.450
J Blake 10 4 0.400
N Almagro 12 4 0.333
A Roddick 32 9 0.281
T Robredo 10 2 0.200
D Ferrer 16 3 0.188
G Simon 10 1 0.100

Chris Kuerten
07-24-2012, 10:59 AM
Nalbandian = GOAT

leng jai
07-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Hass = GOAT

Matt01
07-24-2012, 11:15 AM
DUCK = King Vulture!


The only player who could be considered a "vulture" IMO could be Roddick. Not only for playing all those small US HC tourneys but also for often skipping the big European Clay Events with ridiculous excuses like his wedding day etc. :rolleyes:


Hass = GOAT


:rocker2: