Over ranked players [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Over ranked players

pk-3-
03-19-2012, 02:57 AM
Feliciano Lopez - Very limitted on anything but Grass. How is he ranked in the top 20, there is easily 30 players below that are better ?

Juan Monaco - Does not offer much at all for me. Very basic and has not got the ability to beat people above him.

Marcel Granollers - Again simulair to Monaco, he is nobody i would ever consider betting on even against someone outside the top 100.

Any others ???

I feel the rankings don't have a true reflection

Deathless Mortal
03-19-2012, 02:57 AM
Bogomolov Jr. and Troicki

gators0708
03-19-2012, 03:02 AM
Donald Young

pk-3-
03-19-2012, 03:05 AM
Was thinking Young myself ye. Done nothing since beating Murray a year ago.

1811mil
03-19-2012, 03:12 AM
Granollers is not that bad,overranked yes,but very solid by beating players who are behind him, good serve and very nice touch at the net, still a bit weak groundstrokes...

Looner
03-19-2012, 03:12 AM
Nadal.

swebright
03-19-2012, 03:12 AM
Fish

1811mil
03-19-2012, 03:17 AM
Kei Nishikori on 16, biggest joke of all times

Roddickominator
03-19-2012, 03:19 AM
Andy Murray
David Ferrer
Gael Monfils
Richard Gasquet
Gilles Simon
Tommy Robredo
Janko Tipsarevic
Almugro
Feliciano Lopez
Marcel Granollers
Viktor Troicki

I don't feel like listing any more right now.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 03:25 AM
Troicki is ranked #27 now. He's not overranked anymore. That's right around his level. People just hate him here and way underrate him; although he's not a great player, he generally beats everyone at and below his level.

Snowwy
03-19-2012, 03:29 AM
Andy Murray
David Ferrer
Gael Monfils
Richard Gasquet
Gilles Simon
Tommy Robredo
Janko Tipsarevic
Almugro
Feliciano Lopez
Marcel Granollers
Viktor Troicki

I don't feel like listing any more right now.

So you basically made a list of players you don't like and claim they are over ranked?

v-money
03-19-2012, 03:39 AM
Troicki is ranked #27 now. He's not overranked anymore. That's right around his level. People just hate him here and way underrate him; although he's not a great player, he generally beats everyone at and below his level.

Agreed. Tennis wise Troicki may be a top 20 player...mental strength is what brings him down.

BroTree123
03-19-2012, 03:47 AM
Just to name a few:

Dodig
Dimitrov
Troicki
Bogomolov Jr.
Cilic
Roddick

v-money
03-19-2012, 03:54 AM
Just to name a few:

Dodig
Dimitrov
Troicki
Bogomolov Jr.
Cilic
Roddick

Dimitrov is a terrible example. Guy is ranked 99th, no way is he a worse tennis player than Sweeting, Lorenzi, Soeda, Riba, Gil, ets.

v-money
03-19-2012, 04:01 AM
I really don't like this idea of "over ranked." A better term would be "over achieving" as the rankings are based on one year achievements. It's not like someone just arbitrarily makes them up.

Berlocq and Ebden are the big over achievers this year and credit to them. I never thought I would see Berlocq ranked 38th, but he does actually have a smooth game on the dirt.

MuzzahLovah
03-19-2012, 04:08 AM
Tomic :p

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:23 AM
#8 Mardy Fish=Results have not been top 10 caliber since the US Open. Continues to struggle to beat other top 10 players. But his top 10 spot is in a tenuous position anyway as long as Isner and Del Potro continue going deep in events.

#19 Florian Mayer=Poor results in grand slams and most masters events, 2-6 record this season. I love Flo but he's probably the most overranked top 20 player and he'll be out of the top 20 provisionally this week coming up.

#22 Jurgen Melzer=Ranked around 20 on the basis of two results ONLY, Memphis and Monte Carlo. He'd be ranked in the 80s without these two results. His talent level and the wins he's able to pull off at times suggest he's not overranked, but his performances overall show he is.

#24 Marcel Granollers=Consistently poor results in grand-slams and Masters events. Miami R4 last season one of his only impressive results in a big event in his career. Would be ranked in the 45-50 range without the Valencia points.

#39 Alex Bogomolov Jr.=Hasn't beaten anyone impressive whatsoever this season and is, starting this week in Miami, in the position to defend his points from 2011. His results this year are enough to maintain a top 100 position, but far outside the top 50.

#53 Fabio Fognini=Yes, he's been injured and off the tour, but the reality is he'd be significantly out of the top 100 without the French Open points. Has been very mediocre outside of a couple of flashes of good performance the past few seasons, in large part due to injury, and due to his own inconsistency.

#59 Albert Montanes=Went from top 25 to out of the top 50 in a season. Overall level of play on court has been mostly atrocious since the French Open loss to Fognini and is in the top 100 on the basis of two results, the French Open result and Kitzbuhel final. Whether it's injury aided or not is the question, as he's retired from several events this season.

#61 Ivan Dodig=Has done virtually nothing since defeating Nadal in Montreal. Dreadful results overall in GS/1000 events. In the top 100 on the basis of a fluke run to the SF in Barcelona which he won't defend since he's playing Bucharest this year the week of Barcelona, and an extremely advantageous draw at s'Hertogenbosch. Will likely be removed from the top 100 by June as his results no longer are of a top 100 standard.

#67 Go Soeda=Virtually never wins outside of Asia and virtually never beats top 100 players. The majority of his points total comes from dominating Asian challengers, where there are few top 120 players other than him. Got an EXTREMELY advantageous draw with opponents' chokes and injury issues, to make the SF at Chennai.

#71 Alejandro Falla=In the top 100 exclusively on the basis of his run to the French Open R4. Personally, I think he's more streaky than overranked and is an underachiever, but the reality is he doesn't win matches at a good rate.

#72 Mikhail Kukushkin=Would be right around 100 in the rankings without the Australian Open points. Barely wins matches at the ATP level and barely beat an injured Monfils to attain the R4 at the AO this season. His results are simply not top 100 deserving, in winning percentage nor quality of wins.

#80 Rui Machado=5-13 ATP record last season, 0-7 this season. 20-40 career ATP record. Record is poor overall against top 100 players. Will be right around 100 after next week, which is about his real level.

#81 Paolo Lorenzi=6-23 career ATP record, very poor record overall against top 100 players. Gains most of his points in challengers with weak competition. Will be out of the top 100 in a couple of weeks if he doesn't defend over 130 points the next three weeks.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:26 AM
I don't like the term overranked, but the basis applies in some cases. I didn't include Berlocq, I was going to, but he's not overranked, he's earned his ranking although I definitely can't see him keeping it up, as he basically has never been able to win back-to-back ATP matches in an event whatsoever going into this season. The guys I mentioned are all overranked in relation to their actual results and actual overall ability levels.

Smoke944
03-19-2012, 04:27 AM
^ Just one thing, Falla lost to Chela in the R16 of the French.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:30 AM
Good catch, Smoke, thanks :)

I honestly had to think with Falla. I think he's a top 100 player, because every time he falls out he ends up back in it within 6 months or less. The problem is he keeps falling out of the top 100 every single time he makes it in. So what's his real level? You'd have to say it's of a guy who isn't a top 100 player.

Deathless Mortal
03-19-2012, 04:31 AM
In what way was Dodig's Barcelona SF run a fluke? He beat Soderling, Raonic and Lopez back to back. His form right now is pretty poor, but back then he played well and, as you can see, beat really good players.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:33 AM
Also, I have to say, Janko isn't overranked.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:35 AM
That run is so fluke, because he's done zero before or after that run to show he could beat players like this on clay. Also, and I hate using this excuse, but Soderling wasn't 100% most of the clay season. And the other two aren't clay courters.

Now, if Dodig would have actually done something to supplement that run at Barcelona, it would look less like a one-off run, but he didn't. He finished below .500 on clay last season even with that run.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:38 AM
Plus Dodig hasn't done a thing since Montreal. He got that fighting 3rd set tiebreak win over Tomic in Memphis. That's his best win since August. Without that, his best win would be Monaco on a fast HC in Tokyo, again in a third set breaker. He isn't doing anything, and personally, I don't want to be arrogant but what I said about Dodig originally has proven to be true ultimately. I like Dodig, he's got a ton of heart, but is he really an ATP player, or a challenger-level player who willed himself into doing things above his head in 2011? I think we're all seeing the answer.

Action Jackson
03-19-2012, 04:38 AM
That run is so fluke, because he's done zero before or after that run to show he could beat players like this on clay. Also, and I hate using this excuse, but Soderling wasn't 100% most of the clay season. And the other two aren't clay courters.

Now, if Dodig would have actually done something to supplement that run at Barcelona, it would look less like a one-off run, but he didn't. He finished below .500 on clay last season even with that run.

Any excuse.

Deathless Mortal
03-19-2012, 04:43 AM
If a player plays a tournament perhaps over his standard level, it doesn't mean it was a fluke tournament. Going by that, you could say his whole season was a fluke because basically all he has is his serve and a will to fight, but saying a person had a fluke season wouldn't make much sense. Raonic and Lopez aren't clay courters, but neither is Dodig.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:46 AM
Look at Tipsarevic's results compared to guys ranked near and below him. Janko is CONSISTENT at beating players at and below his level, every tournament he plays, he has had good results in big events, he does great in events where he's one of the clear favorites. That's what it takes to be a top-12 player these days. No, he doesn't beat guys above his level often, but he's not an elite player, nor is he ranked where an elite player would be ranked. I definitely don't like Janko but get realistic, people. Who is going to replace him in the top 10-12? Which players below him actually have better results outside of the obvious ones in Del Potro, Isner, and Monfils when healthy? And his results are better than Fish's are.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 04:53 AM
If a player plays a tournament perhaps over his standard level, it doesn't mean it was a fluke tournament. Going by that, you could say his whole season was a fluke because basically all he has is his serve and a will to fight, but saying a person had a fluke season wouldn't make much sense. Raonic and Lopez aren't clay courters, but neither is Dodig.To me, that's the definition of a fluke. Playing one tournament above your real level, and not being able to recapture and recreate that level again for a long period of time. That is what a fluke is. Since Dodig has never actually done anything like that before or after Barcelona. I don't consider Montreal a fluke, and I don't consider his grass court final a fluke, but Barcelona was pure fluke. In a normal situation, could Dodig even beat a Raonic on clay? Right now, with Milos having more clay experience, would you select Dodig to beat him? That's the reality, we know no-one likely would. Fluke is basically 95 out of 100 you miss, and 5 times you somehow score. But that isn't what you really are, it's a rare situation at most. You're not really capable of scoring again unless you basically get lucky.

I don't consider Dodig's 2011 a fluke season, that would be a ridiculous thing to say, I agree. I do think he played way above his head and above his actual level for about 8 months. I think he's the textbook example of what confidence and heart can bring you. I also think he proves that talent isn't necessary to make it in tennis, or sport in general, if you maximize what you bring to the table.

Deathless Mortal
03-19-2012, 04:59 AM
It doesn't matter whether Dodig would now lose to Raonic or not. What matters is, he was good enough to beat him back then, right after he beat Soderling, and right before he beat Lopez. In an exaggerating example it's like saying that player X beating Djokovic a few years ago was a fluke win because right now he wouldn't beat him. :shrug:

Mountaindewslave
03-19-2012, 05:04 AM
Just to name a few:

Dodig
Dimitrov
Troicki
Bogomolov Jr.
Cilic
Roddick

if anything Roddick is under-ranked, he challenged Berdych at Indian Wells and almost beat Isner a few weeks back

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 05:04 AM
I agree with you on that point............Dodig earned those wins. He had a great performance to make the Barcelona semis. I shouldn't have brought up Raonic or Sodeling's injury issues, it's irrelevant to the point I'm making anyway, which is that Dodig hasn't done anything to back up that result whatsoever on clay.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 05:09 AM
Also originally I wanted to say Ryan Sweeting, but his results in 2012 actually have been passable for a top 100 player. Unfortunately for him he will be out of the top 100 after Houston almost assuredly. He's more streaky and a headcase than overranked, like Falla.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 05:15 AM
Agreed. Tennis wise Troicki may be a top 20 player...mental strength is what brings him down.Mental strength does bring him down, but I'm less and less impressed with Troicki's game the more I see it. This season especially, he's not beating anyone good. Ferrero in Australia, who has not won a MD ATP match this season and barely beat an injured Kukushkin in Davis Cup, is his best victory, and he was down two sets and a break in that match. I thought the same about Troicki, he was a top 20 tennis player, but something has changed after losing that heartbreaker to Monfils in Montreal. I don't really see him as a high-quality player right now. When he's playing well he can threaten the best in the world.

Chase Visa
03-19-2012, 11:58 AM
8. Mardy Fish – not a top 8 player. He’s better than most people on here give him credit for, and I think he could’ve won a major title (Masters, though Slams is probably one step too far) if he wasn’t injured so much at the start of his career, but he’s done Sweet FA since losing to Tsonga at the US Open.
9. Janko Tipsarevic – top 20 player, sure. Top 10 player? One step too far IMO.
13. Gilles Simon – not severely over-ranked, but that QF at Indian Wells was his first good result in a long time.
15. Feliciano Lopez – was better last season, but normally played two or three good tournaments a year and the rest played like a fringe top 100 player.
19. Florian Mayer – decent player, but his true ability is around top 40 rather than top 20. Doesn’t beat the top players at all, and he’s more like a good journeyman rather than a genuine gun.
24. Marcel Granollers – decent player, but he had like two good tournaments last year and the rest of them he was quite poor. Never really beats a good player, except at Valencia.
25. Radek Stepanek – used to be a pretty damn good player, but nowadays he’s probably a 40-60 sort of player. Without Washington, would be ranked much lower.
28. Kevin Anderson – see Mayer, but think someone slightly worse.
32. Juan Igancio Chela – hasn’t really done anything since the French Open. His real ability at this stage in his career is around Stepanek’s, who I’ve talked about earlier.
37. Carlos Berlocq – he’s better this season, but before this season could barely win an ATP-level match, and instead feasted of Challengers.
39. Alex Bogomolov Jr. – he’s better than everyone gives him credit for, but it looks more like last season was a fluke rather than a new beginning.
60. Ivan Dodig – he’s done Sweet FA since beating Nadal at Montreal. Fair play to him for his season last season, but like Bogomolov, it looks like a fluke rather than a new beginning.
61. Dudi Sela – mainly because he isn’t really an ATP-level player, although he’s clearly top 100 standard.
65. Dmitry Tursunov – he just seems finished.
67. Go Soeda – come back to me when he actually does well outside of Asian Challengers where the entry list cutoff is around 1000.
71. Alejandro Falla – results at the ATP-level were terrible apart from the French Open.
72. Mikhail Kukushkin – St Petersburg was a fluke, not the norm. He’s done nothing since and before then.
78. Matthew Ebden – while it’s always gun to see Aussies punching above their weight, his results are boosted by a surprise run to the QF’s in Shanghai.
80. Rui Machado – hasn’t won an ATP-level match in over 12 months. Oddly gun at Challengers though, and the entry lists of those are generally pretty good.
81. Paolo Lorenzi – reasonable enough at Challengers, but has done nothing at the ATP level.
83. Lukas Rosol – he’s proven to be a hack at the ATP-level. Run at the French Open was a fluke.
86. Ryan Sweeting – did nothing after Houston. There’s probably a good player in there somewhere, but how do we know?
99. Matthias Bachinger – see Rosol. Except he only had good results at Challengers. He will be out of the top 100 after this week, though.

One thing I have noticed though, is that players like Devvarman and Mello who fluked a couple of good results to keep them in the top 100 have fallen out. Maybe they’ll be back someday, but we won’t know. Realistically, only Soeda, Kukushkin, Machado, Lorenzi, Bachinger and Rosol are not ATP level players, with the likes of Sweeting and Falla being inconsistent, and others like Ebden, Bogomolov and Dodig being fringe ATP level players. I have doubts that Tursunov is an ATP level player anymore, but at the very least he was.

I’m reserving judgement on the likes of Ungur, Jaziri and Ito, as they haven’t at this level for long enough. Some players like Roger-Vasselin weren’t included as while I doubt they are ATP level players, they are at least around the fringe level like Ebden and Sela, and are ranked lower.

STUHL
03-19-2012, 12:05 PM
#8 Mardy Fish=Results have not been top 10 caliber since the US Open. Continues to struggle to beat other top 10 players. But his top 10 spot is in a tenuous position anyway as long as Isner and Del Potro continue going deep in events.

#19 Florian Mayer=Poor results in grand slams and most masters events, 2-6 record this season. I love Flo but he's probably the most overranked top 20 player and he'll be out of the top 20 provisionally this week coming up.

#22 Jurgen Melzer=Ranked around 20 on the basis of two results ONLY, Memphis and Monte Carlo. He'd be ranked in the 80s without these two results. His talent level and the wins he's able to pull off at times suggest he's not overranked, but his performances overall show he is.

#24 Marcel Granollers=Consistently poor results in grand-slams and Masters events. Miami R4 last season one of his only impressive results in a big event in his career. Would be ranked in the 45-50 range without the Valencia points.

#39 Alex Bogomolov Jr.=Hasn't beaten anyone impressive whatsoever this season and is, starting this week in Miami, in the position to defend his points from 2011. His results this year are enough to maintain a top 100 position, but far outside the top 50.

#53 Fabio Fognini=Yes, he's been injured and off the tour, but the reality is he'd be significantly out of the top 100 without the French Open points. Has been very mediocre outside of a couple of flashes of good performance the past few seasons, in large part due to injury, and due to his own inconsistency.

#59 Albert Montanes=Went from top 25 to out of the top 50 in a season. Overall level of play on court has been mostly atrocious since the French Open loss to Fognini and is in the top 100 on the basis of two results, the French Open result and Kitzbuhel final. Whether it's injury aided or not is the question, as he's retired from several events this season.

#61 Ivan Dodig=Has done virtually nothing since defeating Nadal in Montreal. Dreadful results overall in GS/1000 events. In the top 100 on the basis of a fluke run to the SF in Barcelona which he won't defend since he's playing Bucharest this year the week of Barcelona, and an extremely advantageous draw at s'Hertogenbosch. Will likely be removed from the top 100 by June as his results no longer are of a top 100 standard.

#67 Go Soeda=Virtually never wins outside of Asia and virtually never beats top 100 players. The majority of his points total comes from dominating Asian challengers, where there are few top 120 players other than him. Got an EXTREMELY advantageous draw with opponents' chokes and injury issues, to make the SF at Chennai.

#71 Alejandro Falla=In the top 100 exclusively on the basis of his run to the French Open R4. Personally, I think he's more streaky than overranked and is an underachiever, but the reality is he doesn't win matches at a good rate.

#72 Mikhail Kukushkin=Would be right around 100 in the rankings without the Australian Open points. Barely wins matches at the ATP level and barely beat an injured Monfils to attain the R4 at the AO this season. His results are simply not top 100 deserving, in winning percentage nor quality of wins.

#80 Rui Machado=5-13 ATP record last season, 0-7 this season. 20-40 career ATP record. Record is poor overall against top 100 players. Will be right around 100 after next week, which is about his real level.

#81 Paolo Lorenzi=6-23 career ATP record, very poor record overall against top 100 players. Gains most of his points in challengers with weak competition. Will be out of the top 100 in a couple of weeks if he doesn't defend over 130 points the next three weeks.Nothing more to say!

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 01:29 PM
And it definitely has to be said since I forgot yesterday and only did top 80 players:

#89 Lukas Rosol=In the top 100 EXCLUSIVELY by the R3 result from qualifying at the French Open at this point. Had good results in challengers in 2011, but finished 6-13 in ATP competition last season and is 3-8 this season. 10-27 career ATP record, with only five career wins on hardcourt out of twenty matches. Has shown himself to be a high-level clay courter in challengers, but is punching above his weight at the tour level and will almost definitely be removed from the top 100 by June.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 01:31 PM
Nothing more to say!;)

Sombrerero loco
03-19-2012, 01:33 PM
cipolla, dodig, boggomolov

Puschkin
03-19-2012, 01:37 PM
. I didn't include Berlocq, I was going to, but he's not overranked, he's earned his ranking.
:rolleyes: And the other guys won their ranking in the lottery?

Li Ching Yuen
03-19-2012, 01:39 PM
This thread should be called: "Here's your chance to hate a go at the players you hate".

Plenty of clown posts so far. More to follow.

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 01:44 PM
8. Mardy Fish – not a top 8 player. He’s better than most people on here give him credit for, and I think he could’ve won a major title (Masters, though Slams is probably one step too far) if he wasn’t injured so much at the start of his career, but he’s done Sweet FA since losing to Tsonga at the US Open.
9. Janko Tipsarevic – top 20 player, sure. Top 10 player? One step too far IMO.
13. Gilles Simon – not severely over-ranked, but that QF at Indian Wells was his first good result in a long time.
15. Feliciano Lopez – was better last season, but normally played two or three good tournaments a year and the rest played like a fringe top 100 player.
19. Florian Mayer – decent player, but his true ability is around top 40 rather than top 20. Doesn’t beat the top players at all, and he’s more like a good journeyman rather than a genuine gun.
24. Marcel Granollers – decent player, but he had like two good tournaments last year and the rest of them he was quite poor. Never really beats a good player, except at Valencia.
25. Radek Stepanek – used to be a pretty damn good player, but nowadays he’s probably a 40-60 sort of player. Without Washington, would be ranked much lower.
28. Kevin Anderson – see Mayer, but think someone slightly worse.
32. Juan Igancio Chela – hasn’t really done anything since the French Open. His real ability at this stage in his career is around Stepanek’s, who I’ve talked about earlier.
37. Carlos Berlocq – he’s better this season, but before this season could barely win an ATP-level match, and instead feasted of Challengers.
39. Alex Bogomolov Jr. – he’s better than everyone gives him credit for, but it looks more like last season was a fluke rather than a new beginning.
60. Ivan Dodig – he’s done Sweet FA since beating Nadal at Montreal. Fair play to him for his season last season, but like Bogomolov, it looks like a fluke rather than a new beginning.
61. Dudi Sela – mainly because he isn’t really an ATP-level player, although he’s clearly top 100 standard.
65. Dmitry Tursunov – he just seems finished.
67. Go Soeda – come back to me when he actually does well outside of Asian Challengers where the entry list cutoff is around 1000.
71. Alejandro Falla – results at the ATP-level were terrible apart from the French Open.
72. Mikhail Kukushkin – St Petersburg was a fluke, not the norm. He’s done nothing since and before then.
78. Matthew Ebden – while it’s always gun to see Aussies punching above their weight, his results are boosted by a surprise run to the QF’s in Shanghai.
80. Rui Machado – hasn’t won an ATP-level match in over 12 months. Oddly gun at Challengers though, and the entry lists of those are generally pretty good.
81. Paolo Lorenzi – reasonable enough at Challengers, but has done nothing at the ATP level.
83. Lukas Rosol – he’s proven to be a hack at the ATP-level. Run at the French Open was a fluke.
86. Ryan Sweeting – did nothing after Houston. There’s probably a good player in there somewhere, but how do we know?
99. Matthias Bachinger – see Rosol. Except he only had good results at Challengers. He will be out of the top 100 after this week, though.

One thing I have noticed though, is that players like Devvarman and Mello who fluked a couple of good results to keep them in the top 100 have fallen out. Maybe they’ll be back someday, but we won’t know. Realistically, only Soeda, Kukushkin, Machado, Lorenzi, Bachinger and Rosol are not ATP level players, with the likes of Sweeting and Falla being inconsistent, and others like Ebden, Bogomolov and Dodig being fringe ATP level players. I have doubts that Tursunov is an ATP level player anymore, but at the very least he was.

I’m reserving judgement on the likes of Ungur, Jaziri and Ito, as they haven’t at this level for long enough. Some players like Roger-Vasselin weren’t included as while I doubt they are ATP level players, they are at least around the fringe level like Ebden and Sela, and are ranked lower.Good list............I disagree about Anderson and Chela. Anderson isn't overranked. He consistently beats players at and below his level, he just very rarely beats players above it. Anderson's big problem is he doesn't have many outstanding results in big events. A lot of R3's, one or two R4's, but rarely does he make a deep run at a big event. I think he's ranked appropriately, around top 30.

Chela I would say is overranked normally, but he has an Australian Open R3, US Open R3 and French Open QF to his name. His ranking is benefited by getting soft draws often. His real level is most likely 50ish, but he's a lot like Anderson, he generally beats all the players you expect him to.

Feli is more streaky, unmotivated often, than overranked..............he's someone you could call overranked, but for me, he's just inconsistent as always. His best results, his highs, are higher than pretty much every player he's surrounded by in the ranking, and he can threaten players above his level, unlike most players ranked below him.

I was going to call Dima overranked, but he's been decent when he's been playing. The problem is he's injured often. Dima's problem has always been his poor results in big events, but at a ranking in the 60s, I would even call him a little underranked........when healthy. He gets good results in 250 events pretty consistently.

Federer in 2
03-19-2012, 01:52 PM
Novak Djokovic

Filo V.
03-19-2012, 01:54 PM
:rolleyes: And the other guys won their ranking in the lottery?
No, they got it with one or two results above their normal/average level, without any sort of ability to consistently maintain a decent level. Or, they got it with challenger results, and have proven unable to compete at the ATP level.

JurajCrane
03-19-2012, 01:58 PM
It got to be Janko Tipsarevic, Donald Young, Alex Bogomolov, Radek Stepanek, Go Soeda and Lukas Rosol in top 100.

Everyone will fall, unfortunately for them.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 01:43 AM
Kamke never wins matches. I have no idea how he's still around. It seems like he barely plays tournaments.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 01:44 AM
Donald Young is overranked (sad to say as a fan) and Gulbis is #179 in the race and dropping. So he has to be considered overranked, since he hasn't good good results since last summer, or about 8 months.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 01:46 AM
Oh, and Machado has to be reiterated. 15 straight losses in ATP events. Poor record against top 100 opponents.

misty1
04-11-2012, 01:51 AM
Kamke never wins matches. I have no idea how he's still around. It seems like he barely plays tournaments.

where is he anyway?

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 01:54 AM
He's playing Monte Carlo qualifying this weekend.

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 01:56 AM
#4Murray
#6Ferrer
#8Fish
#12Almagro
#15Lopez
#20Mayer
#23Stepanek
#25Granollers
#31Chela
...

The concept of overranked is a bit misleading. Rankings are objective, they only take one thing into account: results. So I'm not saying that these players don't deserve their rankings: they do because their results over the past year were better than any player ranked below them.

What I mean is that their ranking doesn't represent their real level (eg. they're overachieving).

misty1
04-11-2012, 01:56 AM
Okay thanks

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 02:00 AM
Well, some players are truly overranked, as their rankings are representative of basically 1-2 good results, or their rankings are a result of dominating in challengers or/and against weaker competition. Rosol is a good example of this. His ranking is basically 100% based on two tournaments.

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 02:03 AM
Well, some players are truly overranked, as their rankings are representative of basically 1-2 good results, or their rankings are a result of dominating in challengers or/and against weaker competition. Rosol is a good example of this. His ranking is basically 100% based on two tournaments.~

If they got those two good results and the players ranked below them didn't, then they deserve their rankings. It's impossible to say that a player doesn't deserve his rankings: the rules are the same for everyone and it is a completely objective system.

We can say that a player's ranking doesn't reflect his talent/level of play, but we really can't say he's overranked per se because the only thing that counts for the rankings is results and if a player is in a certain position it's because he got better results than those ranked below him.

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 02:07 AM
#4Murray
#6Ferrer
#8Fish
#12Almagro
#15Lopez
#20Mayer
#23Stepanek
#25Granollers
#31Chela
...

The concept of overranked is a bit misleading. Rankings are objective, they only take one thing into account: results. So I'm not saying that these players don't deserve their rankings: they do because their results over the past year were better than any player ranked below them.

What I mean is that their ranking doesn't represent their real level (eg. they're overachieving).

I'm very keen to hear an explanation on how Murray is overachieveing mate.

Ajde :D

BauerAlmeida
04-11-2012, 02:13 AM
#4Murray
#6Ferrer
#8Fish
#12Almagro
#15Lopez
#20Mayer
#23Stepanek
#25Granollers
#31Chela
...

The concept of overranked is a bit misleading. Rankings are objective, they only take one thing into account: results. So I'm not saying that these players don't deserve their rankings: they do because their results over the past year were better than any player ranked below them.

What I mean is that their ranking doesn't represent their real level (eg. they're overachieving).


Why Chela?? He's good player and is ranked 31, I would agree he is over-ranked if he was top 10. The rest of the list is okay except maybe for Ferrer.

BroTree123
04-11-2012, 02:13 AM
Tipsarevic, Fish, Fognini, Rosol, Kukushkin, Bogomolov Jr., Simon, Kamke (how is he still even in the top 300 :facepalm:).

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 02:18 AM
We can say that a player's ranking doesn't reflect his talent/level of play, but we really can't say he's overranked per se because the only thing that counts for the rankings is results and if a player is in a certain position it's because he got better results than those ranked below him.

I agree, which is why I never said that these players don't deserve their rankings. At least, it's not what I was implying. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ranked above their actual level, as you correctly put it. That's being overranked, IMO. When you have a ranking that you cannot actually support. Like Ryan Sweeting, who fell 50 spots after his Houston points dropped. That's being overranked. He could not support his ranking position when forced to play better players and forced to prove he can be higher level players at least semi-consistently.

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 02:28 AM
I'm very keen to hear an explanation on how Murray is overachieveing mate.

Ajde :D

He has benefited from very favorable circumstances.

Delpo overtook him in the rankings before Australian Open 2010 and then aggravated a wrist injury and had to spend a year off the tour.

One year later, Soderling did the same, then got injured for the clay season and finally also had to spend one year off the tour (and counting as well).

It's amazing how every time someone overtakes Murray in the ranking, something horrible happens to them.

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 02:31 AM
Why Chela?? He's good player and is ranked 31, I would agree he is over-ranked if he was top 10. The rest of the list is okay except maybe for Ferrer.

I feel he's more on the #40, #50 level. But maybe I'm biased because everything I watch him play he seems to lose/play badly.

But in any event, he would never such a flagrant case as the likes of Fish for instance. It's baffling how Fish is still in the top 10.

I agree, which is why I never said that these players don't deserve their rankings. At least, it's not what I was implying. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ranked above their actual level, as you correctly put it. That's being overranked, IMO. When you have a ranking that you cannot actually support. Like Ryan Sweeting, who fell 50 spots after his Houston points dropped. That's being overranked. He could not support his ranking position when forced to play better players and forced to prove he can be higher level players at least semi-consistently.

Fair enough. That description can apply pretty much to any top 60-100 player who's there on the back of challenger results, or any 40 player who's there on the back of results in ATP events with weak fields.

fmolinari2005
04-11-2012, 02:43 AM
:rolleyes: And the other guys won their ranking in the lottery?

This should end this thread ... but it won't. :lol:

The problem is that in order to do a real analysis of a player's ranking there should be more than just biased opinions and selective memory of recent results.

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 02:45 AM
He has benefited from very favorable circumstances.

Delpo overtook him in the rankings before Australian Open 2010 and then aggravated a wrist injury and had to spend a year off the tour.

One year later, Soderling did the same, then got injured for the clay season and finally also had to spend one year off the tour (and counting as well).

It's amazing how every time someone overtakes Murray in the ranking, something horrible happens to them.

And you can say with absoulute certainty that Del Potro and Soderling would have maintained that form and consistency to keep Murray from the number 4 position? Murray is a better overall player than those two guys and while it is unfortunate they got injured when they did, there is no plausible explanation to state that Murray has overachieved in their absence. If anything he has UNDERachieved in his results so far in his career.

Ajde :D

156mphserve
04-11-2012, 02:52 AM
I agree, which is why I never said that these players don't deserve their rankings. At least, it's not what I was implying. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ranked above their actual level, as you correctly put it. That's being overranked, IMO. When you have a ranking that you cannot actually support. Like Ryan Sweeting, who fell 50 spots after his Houston points dropped. That's being overranked. He could not support his ranking position when forced to play better players and forced to prove he can be higher level players at least semi-consistently.

Sweeting hasn't dropped yet, he may win Houston again and continue to support that ranking

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
04-11-2012, 02:58 AM
i think starting from 2014 tennis should start a 10 year ranking system back dated

if that puts federer at no.1 then that is just science working

it wouldn't be unfair at all to the lower ranked players

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 02:59 AM
And you can say with absoulute certainty that Del Potro and Soderling would have maintained that form and consistency to keep Murray from the number 4 position? Murray is a better overall player than those two guys and while it is unfortunate they got injured when they did, there is no plausible explanation to state that Murray has overachieved in their absence. If anything he has UNDERachieved in his results so far in his career.

Ajde :D

Well, I won't get into an in-depth Murray vs Delpo discussion for the third time this week on this forum, but I disagree with that. (Basically I'd say he was won a Slam while Murray hasn't, you'd say one tournament isn't enough, and so on... we'd basically be regurgitating things that have already been said millions of times in comparisons between the two) But that's not even very relevant here.

Regardless of any views on the overall quality of the players, it's hard to argue that it is not extremely luck that on the two occasions where players overtook Murray in the rankings, they were never healthy again for at least another year (in Soderling's case, might even be career-ending). I'm not saying it is certain they'd have stayed ahead of Murray, we can never know for sure (only speculate), but it is undeniably lucky on Murray's part.

And I also disagree that he has underachieved. I never expected him to win Slams or be # 1 and I still don't expect him to. When was the last time a player with such a weak forehand (not weak per se, but weak compared to top players standards) and lack of weaponary as Murray won Slams or was ranked #1?

I have nothing against Murray (or any tennis player), but I do believe he's overrated. But maybe he will prove me wrong in the future.

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 03:09 AM
Well, I won't get into an in-depth Murray vs Delpo discussion for the third time this week on this forum, but I disagree with that. (Basically I'd say he was won a Slam while Murray hasn't, you'd say one tournament isn't enough, and so on... we'd basically be regurgitating things that have already been said millions of times in comparisons between the two) But that's not even very relevant here.

Regardless of any views on the overall quality of the players, it's hard to argue that it is not extremely luck that on the two occasions where players overtook Murray in the rankings, they were never healthy again for at least another year (in Soderling's case, might even be career-ending). I'm not saying it is certain they'd have stayed ahead of Murray, we can never know for sure (only speculate), but it is undeniably lucky on Murray's part.

And I also disagree that he has underachieved. I never expected him to win Slams or be # 1 and I still don't expect him to. When was the last time a player with such a weak forehand (not weak per se, but weak compared to top players standards) and lack of weaponary as Murray won Slams or was ranked #1?

I have nothing against Murray (or any tennis player), but I do believe he's overrated. But maybe he will prove me wrong in the future.

I believe Murray has more potential and variety in his game than Del Potro but it's the mental side of his game that has let him down on the biggest stages and that in turn has directly correlated with his poor on court performances in grand slam finals. Del Potro had a very impressive two weeks in New York in 2009 to capture that title and that is why it's very unfortunate he got injured when he did. And why you're right on how we can only speculate what could have been in that case...

Murray has also been to number 2 in the rankings, something that I could never of seen Del Potro or Soderling realistically achieving (even if fit). In my opinion, he clearly has the game to win multiple slams, it's his head that gets in the way and hopefully Lendl can turn things around for him in the remaining slams this year.

Ajde :D

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 03:22 AM
I believe Murray has more potential and variety in his game than Del Potro but it's the mental side of his game that has let him down on the biggest stages and that in turn has directly correlated with his poor on court performances in grand slam finals. Del Potro had a very impressive two weeks in New York in 2009 to capture that title and that is why it's very unfortunate he got injured when he did. And why you're right on how we can only speculate what could have been in that case...

Murray has also been to number 2 in the rankings, something that I could never of seen Del Potro or Soderling realistically achieving (even if fit). In my opinion, he clearly has the game to win multiple slams, it's his head that gets in the way and hopefully Lendl can turn things around for him in the remaining slams this year.

Ajde :D

I honestly don't think Murray not winning a Slam has anything to do with his mental side. He didn't falter mentally, he was just clearly overmatched in terms of game in all the finals he played. He kept pushing and allowing Federer to dictate with his forehand. When that happens, there's only one outcome. I really don't see how his defeats to Federer and Djokovic had anything to do with his mentality, it was clear from the offset that he was overmatched.

People try to discredit Delpo's Slam by claiming Federer played like shit in the 2009 final (and choked), while he was at his best in the 2008 final, but that's flawed reasoning. Of course it will be easier for Federer to be at his best when his opponent is merely pushing and allowing him to dictate with his forehand than when his opponent is blasting insane winners off both wings.

I honestly believe Murray will never win a Slam (or maybe 1 after Fedal retire decline/retire, since the new generation doesn't seem all that promising), and I do think Delpo will be a multislam winner.

If you look at all the Slams winners since 2003 (bar Gaudio), you'll see that each and everyone of them has at least one fantastic weapon, a money shot that keeps earning them points, be it a killer serve, an amazing forehand or backhand (Safin). Players without firepower/a great weapon have always struggled late in Slams, it's hardly a shock the same is happening to Murray.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see who is correct, for now it's all speculation.

Lestat
04-11-2012, 03:35 AM
#9 Fish is definitely the most over ranked, no one how he is there but still he is top ten.

#16 Same for Monaco, he only gets some good points in the southamerican season and his season ends there, the rest of the year he loses everywhere in early rounds. The semifinal in Miami doesnt change his historial.

#26 Granollers

#5 Tsonga. Nonsense to me, he is a brainless balbasher and still #5.

mooncreek
04-11-2012, 04:04 AM
Mardy Fish - the list of players will keep growing of those claiming to beat a Top 10 player as long as he's still there.

I still find it tough to believe Florian Mayer is a Top 20 player.

As I look at who would currently be seeded a major, I have no clue how Julien Benneteau got there. I remember that tournament right before the US Open and that's about it.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 04:10 AM
Benneteau isn't overranked. He's good at always beating guys below him. That's what it takes to be a 25-50 player, consistency is key, it doesn't have to be great overall, but solid.

Filo V.
04-11-2012, 04:11 AM
Sweeting hasn't dropped yet, he may win Houston again and continue to support that ranking

His ranking fell out of the top 100 when the official rankings were released on Monday as Houston is a week later on the calendar this season.

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 04:19 AM
I honestly don't think Murray not winning a Slam has anything to do with his mental side. He didn't falter mentally, he was just clearly overmatched in terms of game in all the finals he played. He kept pushing and allowing Federer to dictate with his forehand. When that happens, there's only one outcome. I really don't see how his defeats to Federer and Djokovic had anything to do with his mentality, it was clear from the offset that he was overmatched.

People try to discredit Delpo's Slam by claiming Federer played like shit in the 2009 final (and choked), while he was at his best in the 2008 final, but that's flawed reasoning. Of course it will be easier for Federer to be at his best when his opponent is merely pushing and allowing him to dictate with his forehand than when his opponent is blasting insane winners off both wings.

I honestly believe Murray will never win a Slam (or maybe 1 after Fedal retire decline/retire, since the new generation doesn't seem all that promising), and I do think Delpo will be a multislam winner.

If you look at all the Slams winners since 2003 (bar Gaudio), you'll see that each and everyone of them has at least one fantastic weapon, a money shot that keeps earning them points, be it a killer serve, an amazing forehand or backhand (Safin). Players without firepower/a great weapon have always struggled late in Slams, it's hardly a shock the same is happening to Murray.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see who is correct, for now it's all speculation.

I disagree with the bolded sentence. Sure he has run into Federer and Djokovic at the top of their games in slam finals but after his debut in that environment he should have been able to step up his game and take it to them. He has the ability to hit flat and deep through the court with his groundstrokes, he's just develeped a mindset that he can outrally most players. And he can for the most part, but not against the top guys on the biggest stages. This is where he needs a steady combination of power and accuracy. And this is where the mental part of the equation comes in. He will miss a few shots and then revert back to playing passively. The mental aspect of tennis should never be underestimated and in a lot of cases it is the difference between a win or a loss.

And I am in no way discrediting Delpo's US Open victory, he played lights out tennis for that fortnight beating Nadal and Federer back to back. Mentally, he was on fire then as well. But since his comeback from injury he has looked pretty lethargic against the top guys, especially Federer who has made him look downright abysmal at times.

Ajde :D

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 04:43 AM
I disagree with the bolded sentence. Sure he has run into Federer and Djokovic at the top of their games in slam finals but after his debut in that environment he should have been able to step up his game and take it to them. He has the ability to hit flat and deep through the court with his groundstrokes, he's just develeped a mindset that he can outrally most players. And he can for the most part, but not against the top guys on the biggest stages. This is where he needs a steady combination of power and accuracy. And this is where the mental part of the equation comes in. He will miss a few shots and then revert back to playing passively. The mental aspect of tennis should never be underestimated and in a lot of cases it is the difference between a win or a loss.

And I am in no way discrediting Delpo's US Open victory, he played lights out tennis for that fortnight beating Nadal and Federer back to back. Mentally, he was on fire then as well. But since his comeback from injury he has looked pretty lethargic against the top guys, especially Federer who has made him look downright abysmal at times.

Ajde :D

I disagree as well. It's not as easy as you make it sound. We both agree that he needs a more offensive approach to win Slams, that goes without saying, but it's not that easy.

He doesn't play defensively because he enjoys grinding every point. He does so because that's how he feels comfortable on the court, it's how he's played all his life and how he achieved all his successes. Changing his game/mindset at this stage is a tough ask.

It's clear to me that he's not comfortable being the aggressor, hence why he reverts back to pushing once he misses a few shots. To be a more aggressive player, the most important tools are a great serve and forehand and those are exactly Murray's biggest weaknesses. Does he have the game/weapons to adopt a more attacking mindset? I have serious doubts, but I won't rule out the possibility.

Can he actually do it? I doubt it very much. He's already 24, it's not that easy to change his game/mindset at this stage. Besides, while he could benefit from such a change, he could also suffer the consequences of leaving his comfort zone (see Roddick after he tried to change his game to beat Federer).

As for Delpo, what did you expect? Spending one year off the tour without even being able to practice (due to wrist surgery) is kind of a big deal. It's basically a year of development he lost (he was only 21) while his opponents kept improving. Getting back to the top 10 in a year after such a serious injury is not a disappointment, it's a fantastic achievement. How many players have returned to the top so quickly in a such a competitive sport as tennis after one year without playing or training? Not many, I'm sure. As a Hewitt fan, you should be more than aware of this since Lleyton has struggled so much with injuries throughout the years.

Delpo is only 23 and is steadily improving - only Federer has kept him from having a truly fantastic season so far. Again as a Hewitt fan you must know that losing to Federer is no shame, he has been in great form this season and can make pretty much anyone look abysmal. Delpo has more upside than any other top 10 player at the moment (he should really improve especially his serve, it's mediocre for a guy his size) as he's the youngest in that group. After what he showed in late 2009 (especially at USO) both in terms of game and mentally and the way he has managed to get himself back at the top of the game after spend a year off the tour, I have no reason to believe that, provided he stays fit, Delpo won't win at least one Slam in the future. I'd be surprised if he didn't.

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 05:03 AM
I'd just like to point out that I am amazed that neither one of us has conformed to MTF social paradigm and called each other a mug or a clown yet. Ajde.

I agree with a lot of your points mate, just not on the Murray overachieving claim which sparked this little debate. We'll agree to disagree on that I think.

Ajde :D

Mark Lenders
04-11-2012, 05:11 AM
I'd just like to point out that I am amazed that neither one of us has conformed to MTF social paradigm and called each other a mug or a clown yet. Ajde.

I agree with a lot of your points mate, just not on the Murray overachieving claim which sparked this little debate. We'll agree to disagree on that I think.

Ajde :D

Yeah, I'm relatively new to this forum (two weeks), but I've already picked up on this tendency of people explaining tennis results with player x who lost being a mug, clown, choker, etc instead of any real analysis... These words get thrown aroun way too much around here, although I admit that it is quite funny sometimes. Has the General Messages section always been like this or is it just a phase?

Sure, we'll agree to disagree. Time will show who was right :D

It was nice debating with you, hopefully it won't be the last time. Cheers :)

Hewitt =Legend
04-11-2012, 05:20 AM
Yeah, I'm relatively new to this forum (two weeks), but I've already picked up on this tendency of people explaining tennis results with player x who lost being a mug, clown, choker, etc instead of any real analysis... These words get thrown aroun way too much around here, although I admit that it is quite funny sometimes. Has the General Messages section always been like this or is it just a phase?

Sure, we'll agree to disagree. Time will show who was right :D

It was nice debating with you, hopefully it won't be the last time. Cheers :)

Yeah it's always been like this since I started posting regulary back in 2009 I think it was. You learn pretty quickly who the nutters/trolls are around here... which sadly consists of half the board these days. Still there is sometimes quality tennis discussion to be had if you have the time to look/engage in it.

Ajde :D

156mphserve
04-11-2012, 06:48 AM
His ranking fell out of the top 100 when the official rankings were released on Monday as Houston is a week later on the calendar this season.

:lol: I forgot that this year was a week behind. My bad.

Certinfy
03-06-2013, 09:07 PM
Federer and Ferrer.Novak Djokovic
:haha: You never fail to impress.

rocketassist
03-06-2013, 09:33 PM
Lorenzi by far

ProdigyEng
03-06-2013, 09:43 PM
Jaun Mugaco

Li Ching Yuen
03-06-2013, 10:20 PM
James Junior Storme (BEL)

sandstorm_bg
03-06-2013, 10:32 PM
Fish, Granollers and Monaco.