Whose one-hander would you pick against Nadal's forehand? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Whose one-hander would you pick against Nadal's forehand?

out_grinder
03-14-2012, 01:46 PM
Topspin, not slice.

Obviously the answer is none of them, but if forced to be a rightie with a one handed-backhand, whose would you pick to play against the Nadal forehand?

Bonus points for backing up your answer with analysis as to why the biomechanics/grip/technique of your chosen player's backhand make him more favourable against Nadz.

fsoica
03-14-2012, 01:52 PM
absolutely wonderful question. i have no idea :)

if I absolutely have to choose one, I'd say Wawrinka on his day.

Slice Winner
03-14-2012, 01:56 PM
Youzhny and Blake have respectable H2Hs against Nadal.
Lopez has a couple of wins over him too.
Fed I'm sure has the most wins over Nadal for a one hander.

Topspindoctor
03-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Can't be fucked with an analysis since I am posting with my phone, but, Drugsquet's BH would be my pick. Main reason being is that he doesn't seem to struggle with topspin

Deathless Mortal
03-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Ljubo's

asmazif
03-14-2012, 01:58 PM
Youzhny and Blake have respectable H2Hs against Nadal.
Lopez has a couple of wins over him too.
Fed I'm sure has the most wins over Nadal for a one hander.

:lol: I don't think that's primarily due to his BH.

oh, and Stan when on. Really could have picked up a win v Nadal by now, especially in the Miami/Toronto matches, head lets him down too often. He actually hasn't even won a set :p

Looner
03-14-2012, 02:04 PM
I would pick Wawrinka's BH. He has a very strong wrist and can cause Nadal a world of problems (as seen in their matches). It's his mentality that has not allowed him to get closer if not score a victory against Nadull, even on clay. Similarly, Blake had a power OHBH so that's another reason he's done well.

Dimitrov did well against Nadal in 2009 in Rotterdam (although admittedly that was a small tournament) as he plays a similar type of backhand. Federer's backhand is very spinny sometimes and relies on timing which can be easily influenced by annoying spin and outside conditions.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Ljubicic by far is the best one I have seen against Nadal, height is the most important factor here.

Even great topspin backhands like Gasquet and Haas look avarage against Nadal.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 02:14 PM
I would pick Wawrinka's BH. He has a very strong wrist and can cause Nadal a world of problems (as seen in their matches). It's his mentality that has not allowed him to get closer if not score a victory against Nadull, even on clay. Similarly, Blake had a power OHBH so that's another reason he's done well.

Dimitrov did well against Nadal in 2009 in Rotterdam (although admittedly that was a small tournament) as he plays a similar type of backhand. Federer's backhand is very spinny sometimes and relies on timing which can be easily influenced by annoying spin and outside conditions.

Federer's backhand is great indoors against Nadal, I am sure he also would have no problem against Nadal in Rotterdam with low bounces and no wind or uneven bounces.

emotion
03-14-2012, 02:17 PM
With Ljubicic's gone, maybe Almagro's. Almagro has the game to beat Nadal, even on clay, just can never quite do it

zoparrat
03-14-2012, 02:26 PM
Gaudio's backhand did held-up-ish against Rafa's forehand. Guga's would also be a good pick.

paseo
03-14-2012, 02:46 PM
Prime Blake.

superandy88
03-14-2012, 02:56 PM
Karlovic

emotion
03-14-2012, 02:59 PM
Karlovic

Honestly, he's so tall this would be true if his backhand was anything but incredibly awful

munZe konZa
03-14-2012, 03:23 PM
Nole plays a 1 handed backhand slice about 0.5% of the time.

Dougie
03-14-2012, 03:28 PM
With Ljubicic's gone, maybe Almagro's. Almagro has the game to beat Nadal, even on clay, just can never quite do it

ALmagro is capable of generating pace from his backhand, heīd be a good pick, IMO. He can also whip it down the line really well, which is an advantage.

Nole plays a 1 handed backhand slice about 0.5% of the time.

Which is significantly more than the relevance of your post.

Johnny Groove
03-14-2012, 03:30 PM
Guillermo Garcia-Lopez owned him in that Bangkok 10 match with that one hander.

Federer's indoors and on a quicker outdoor hardcourt. I've seen Kohlschreiber succeed BH to FH vs. Nadal for periods of time in their matches too.

Gaudio vs. Baby Rafa was very effective, and even in 2006, a past it Gaudio took a 7-5 set vs. 2006Rafa in Monte Carlo. Lost 1 and 1 the last two sets, but Rafa vs. Gaudio with both in prime form would be quite a spectacle.

Oh, and Almugro. He is one of the only Spaniards that really gives a battle to Nadal when they play. His one hander has given Nadal problems in many of their matches.

Dougie
03-14-2012, 03:41 PM
It would be interesting to see what Gasquet could do if he stepped in and took the ball earlier. His technique is really good, but if you play 3 metres behind the baseline against Nadal, itīs a losing battle no matter how well you hit the ball.

Mystique
03-14-2012, 03:42 PM
Federer's variety + Gasquet's topspin + Kohlsreiber's power

Yeah, seems about right. May have a chance against Nadal.
Sadly, this BH doesnt exist.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Federer's variety + Gasquet's topspin + Kohlsreiber's power

Yeah, seems about right. May have a chance against Nadal.
Sadly, this BH doesnt exist.

+Ljubicic's height+ Gaudio's consistency. Now we are talking...

BroTree123
03-14-2012, 03:56 PM
I'd say Hass.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 04:14 PM
I'd say Hass.

No way, Haas backhand is so avarage against Nadal. Watch Kohlshreiber or Ljubicic for effective backhands against Nadal, Haas is too oldschool with not enought power and uses his slice too much while defending.

BroTree123
03-14-2012, 04:21 PM
No way, Haas backhand is so avarage against Nadal. Watch Kohlshreiber or Ljubicic for effective backhands against Nadal, Haas is too oldschool with not enought power and uses his slice too much while defending.

Hass*.

Clay Death
03-14-2012, 04:28 PM
i may have to disagree. if the clay warrior is really on with his forehand, there is no single hander that is of much use against that very stroke.

of course you will get a few shots in here and there that may be finishing shots or at least be able to extract an error but over the course of a whole match---and especially a best of 5 sets match, that single hander will be pretty much useless.

emotion
03-14-2012, 04:30 PM
i may have to disagree. if the clay warrior is really on with his forehand, there is no single hander that is of much use against that very stroke.

of course you will get a few shots in here and there that may be finishing shots or at least be able to extract an error but over the course of a whole match---and especially a best of 5 sets match, that single hander will be pretty much useless.

If Almagro knew how to play a tiebreak vs the top 10/ had taken BP at 4-4 he would've beat him the year Nadal played his best

Evitman
03-14-2012, 04:39 PM
Mine. Have just beat Nadal in Roland Garros final. (Tennis Elbow 2011) :D

Dougie
03-14-2012, 04:42 PM
Mine. Have just beat Nadal in Roland Garros final. (Tennis Elbow 2011) :D

And then you woke up and went for a piss.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
03-14-2012, 05:03 PM
correct answer is guga

alter ego
03-14-2012, 05:07 PM
Gasquet. Too bad the rest of his hame isn't good enough to beat Nadull.

Start da Game
03-14-2012, 05:20 PM
nobody.....closest would be guga.....nadal is the greatest destroyer of single handers in the history of tennis.....it's so ignorant of people to try portray his unique forehand as a bad match up for single handers on the tour.....how many lefties can hit their forehands like nadal? no one......nadal's tennis is unique.....

abraxas21
03-14-2012, 05:21 PM
any decent one-hander from the 80es would take out rafa in straights

Start da Game
03-14-2012, 05:24 PM
in play station.....

ballbasher101
03-14-2012, 05:56 PM
Forget it, Nadal eats up one handers for breakfast, lunch and super. Only indoors does Federer's backhand breathe a sigh of relief. Nadal must have an 80% winning record against single handers I suspect. Would be nice if someone posted the stats.

Broskie91
03-14-2012, 06:06 PM
Robredo or Chucho

green25814
03-14-2012, 06:10 PM
Guga.

nsidhan
03-14-2012, 06:11 PM
Very good question. Props to the OP.

I'd say AlMUGro.

fsoica
03-14-2012, 06:16 PM
nobody.....closest would be guga.....nadal is the greatest destroyer of single handers in the history of tennis.....it's so ignorant of people to try portray his unique forehand as a bad match up for single handers on the tour.....how many lefties can hit their forehands like nadal? no one......nadal's tennis is unique.....

if the next encounter between rafa and the djoker will go in the serb's favour, could you pls. take your sig down? I'm tired of your tardism, really...

fsoica
03-14-2012, 06:17 PM
any decent one-hander from the 80es would take out rafa in straights

on those courts, yes...on today's courts, no chance...

Macbrother
03-14-2012, 06:49 PM
Kuerten's, arguably one of the greatest single-handers ever; tall and with variety, he could do absolutely anything he wanted with the shot. Would've loved to see BH/FH rallies between them, unfortunately wasn't meant to be.

Bobby
03-14-2012, 06:51 PM
I hate to say it, but no one-hander will get the job done against Nadal's forehand. Especially on clay.

Dougie
03-14-2012, 07:12 PM
I hate to say it, but no one-hander will get the job done against Nadal's forehand. Especially on clay.

Not true. Kuerten would have had a shot. Corretja is another one that comes to mind.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 07:19 PM
Not true. Kuerten would have had a shot. Corretja is another one that comes to mind.

Very speculative, specially Corretja when there are better onehanders around in this generation that cant get the job done.

Nadal won a set against Corretja when he was only 16 in Barcelona and he defeated Costa in straights in Monte Carlo.

Dougie
03-14-2012, 07:29 PM
Very speculative, specially Corretja when there are better onehanders around in this generation that cant get the job done.

Nadal won a set against Corretja when he was only 16 in Barcelona and he defeated Costa in straights in Monte Carlo.

So you think every one-hander before current era was worse than todays? Best one-handed backhands are from previous eras, but speculating their success against Nadalīs forehand is rather pointless, since Nadalīs heavy spin is made possible by todays equipment, and previous eras didnīt face that kind of shots.

As for Corretja, he was way past his prime by the time he played Nadal.

leng jai
03-14-2012, 08:26 PM
No way, Haas backhand is so avarage against Nadal. Watch Kohlshreiber or Ljubicic for effective backhands against Nadal, Haas is too oldschool with not enought power and uses his slice too much while defending.

Pres shoulder surgery Hass' backhand would have been a lot more effective. Kuerten's backhand would be my pick.

Ajde.

out_grinder
03-14-2012, 08:52 PM
anyone got HQ clips of Kuerten?

Scouring youtube brings up crappy low rez footage - you can't see the spin, you can't see the technique

GSMnadal
03-14-2012, 09:01 PM
Only one-hander that would be effective against Nadal would be Muhammad Ali's one-hander.

sexybeast
03-14-2012, 09:13 PM
So you think every one-hander before current era was worse than todays? Best one-handed backhands are from previous eras, but speculating their success against Nadalīs forehand is rather pointless, since Nadalīs heavy spin is made possible by todays equipment, and previous eras didnīt face that kind of shots.

As for Corretja, he was way past his prime by the time he played Nadal.

No, I dont think every one hander in previous era is worse than today's, when did I say that? I said there are better one handers around than Corretja's in this era and yes, they need to deal with 3000 rpm jumping over your shoulder, raquets which produce more spin than they ever did before.

Yes, Corretja was past his peak when he beat Nadal, Costa wasnt really far from his peak so he cant have this excuse losing to a 16 year old Nadal. I think Costa, Corretja and Kuerten clearly had the best onehanded backhands in the late 90s claycourts and the little evidence we have is that a 16 year old Nadal was already causing them trouble.

Kuerten had a magnificent backhand but poor movement, he used to push everyone around on claycourts but against Nadal he would lose the point as soon as Nadal gets a grip of the point with his forehand, I dont think Kuerten would be able to turn defense to offense against Nadal, I dont think Nadal would be a very good matchup for him at all, which would be sad because I really was a fan of Guga, not of Nadal's tennis.

eduggs
03-14-2012, 09:46 PM
nobody.....closest would be guga.....nadal is the greatest destroyer of single handers in the history of tennis.....it's so ignorant of people to try portray his unique forehand as a bad match up for single handers on the tour.....how many lefties can hit their forehands like nadal? no one......nadal's tennis is unique.....

Nadal would have more trouble against himself than most players with one-handed backhands. It's not a 1 vs 2-handed thing. Extreme topspin gives most backhands trouble. Nadal gives Murray, Tsonga, Roddick, Monfils, and many other players huge problems on their backhand wings. On the flip size, Gasquet, Almagro, Wawrinka, Kohly, Youzhny, and even Federer, handle it fairly well. Nadal's backhand is a weakness. A vast majority of players have much better forehands than backhands. A backhand weakness does not appear just because Nadal breaks it down.

I've said it a 1000 times, Federer's trouble with Nadal isn't so much his backhand. He handles that wing just fine. His problem is Nadal's quickness and court coverage. Federer is forced to play very aggressively with his groundstrokes (low percentage) and becomes tentative with his approaches because of Nadal's ability to pass on the run. Nadal on the other hand doesn't have to come far out of his comfort zone. If Nadal wasn't so effective with his backhand pass, Federer would dominate this matchup in my opinion. In most of Federer's losses you can pinpoint a game or a point where Nadal took control with one or more spectacular backhand passing shots. It happens almost every match.

leng jai
03-14-2012, 09:54 PM
Kuerten's backhand handled peak Ferrero's heavy forehand on clay. That gives you some idea of how it would have been against Nadal.

out_grinder
03-14-2012, 10:07 PM
Kuerten's backhand handled peak Ferrero's heavy forehand on clay. That gives you some idea of how it would have been against Nadal.

Bearing in mind Nadal probably hits 3-4x as much topspin as Ferrero, no it doesn't.

UsD.AnDreS
03-14-2012, 10:26 PM
Only one-hander that would be effective against Nadal would be Muhammad Ali's one-hander.

Tsonga's one-hander is a fluke... won't be stable enough..

On a serious note : choosing from active guys I'd rather go with Wawrinka, I remember when his BH held exceptionally well against Rafa about 3 years ago on some of these (IW or Miami) tournaments, although it was still not enough to get a set, lol.. 6-7 6-7 in 2 hours and 40 minutes if I am not mistaken

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
03-15-2012, 12:13 AM
gugas because of his height

only reason the 1 hander breaks down for federer is because its over his shoulders and out of his comfort zone

technically gasquets perfect technnique could handle nadal's forehand but richie isnt there mentally

http://www.blogtorcida.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/gugakuerten.jpg

http://heartsetmatch.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/richard-gasquet-backhand-01.jpg

stebs
03-15-2012, 12:39 AM
Actually the way the rest of the game fits in is an important consideration. Hard to pick just one shot. For example, Gasquet plays against the Nadal forehand by taking the ball very far back, he can do it because of his power and technique on that side but it leads to great problems for him on the forehand. Further, for anyone wishing to play an aggressive game, this would be out of the question. I think Youzhny's BH has held up well and dealt with the high ball well on hardcourts when he was in his prime.

jonas
03-15-2012, 07:39 AM
http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image2/sp-roger.jpg

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 09:38 AM
Nadal would have more trouble against himself than most players with one-handed backhands. It's not a 1 vs 2-handed thing. Extreme topspin gives most backhands trouble. Nadal gives Murray, Tsonga, Roddick, Monfils, and many other players huge problems on their backhand wings. On the flip size, Gasquet, Almagro, Wawrinka, Kohly, Youzhny, and even Federer, handle it fairly well. Nadal's backhand is a weakness. A vast majority of players have much better forehands than backhands. A backhand weakness does not appear just because Nadal breaks it down.

I've said it a 1000 times, Federer's trouble with Nadal isn't so much his backhand. He handles that wing just fine. His problem is Nadal's quickness and court coverage. Federer is forced to play very aggressively with his groundstrokes (low percentage) and becomes tentative with his approaches because of Nadal's ability to pass on the run. Nadal on the other hand doesn't have to come far out of his comfort zone. If Nadal wasn't so effective with his backhand pass, Federer would dominate this matchup in my opinion. In most of Federer's losses you can pinpoint a game or a point where Nadal took control with one or more spectacular backhand passing shots. It happens almost every match.

the thing is nadal's forehand has the most endurance.....i think i will agree with some of what you said.....fed can hold up against rafa's forehand pretty well but only till the point he has to make the next move.....that's when his problems arise.....

nadal is just quicker than fed and defends better than him.....so fed is forced to play high risk tennis time and again which is not his thing.....and it's just sad that nadal's strengths(footspeed and insane topspin) are attributed to bad match up, but we can forgive them as they are clueless anyway......

most single handers have serious issues with nadal's forehand because once again it's the endurance coupled with his ability to move better than his opponent.....that allows him to pin anyone to the backhand corner and dictate all day with his forehand.....nobody does that better than nadal.....

BroTree123
03-15-2012, 09:42 AM
Only one-hander that would be effective against Nadal would be Muhammad Ali's one-hander.

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=26382038

JurajCrane
03-15-2012, 09:46 AM
Fed have to play ultra-agressive tennis to beat Nadal, what isnīt possible to do always. 12-2 on clay or so ...

But when conditions are right for Fed and he has his day, Nadal hasnīt got a chance.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 10:04 AM
gugas because of his height



it's not because of height alone......guga's technique was such that it was more safe, utterly consistent and had power to go with it as well......guga's down the line was ripper which was his trademark shot......fed's down the line is absolute shit compared to kuerten's......

leng jai
03-15-2012, 11:08 AM
it's not because of height alone......guga's technique was such that it was more safe, utterly consistent and had power to go with it as well......guga's down the line was ripper which was his trademark shot......fed's down the line is absolute shit compared to kuerten's......

Affirmative Shankar. Most players down the line backhand is shit compared to Guga's, and Federer's doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same stratosphere.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 11:24 AM
concurred.....out of the current single handers, gasquet has decent finishing power down the line and haas had good control on the shot as well.....just that both are too weak with their other wing.....

Hewitt =Legend
03-15-2012, 11:25 AM
the thing is nadal's forehand has the most endurance.....i think i will agree with some of what you said.....fed can hold up against rafa's forehand pretty well but only till the point he has to make the next move.....that's when his problems arise.....

nadal is just quicker than fed and defends better than him.....so fed is forced to play high risk tennis time and again which is not his thing.....and it's just sad that nadal's strengths(footspeed and insane topspin) are attributed to bad match up, but we can forgive them as they are clueless anyway......

most single handers have serious issues with nadal's forehand because once again it's the endurance coupled with his ability to move better than his opponent.....that allows him to pin anyone to the backhand corner and dictate all day with his forehand.....nobody does that better than nadal.....

Tennis is all about match ups mate, the sooner you realise this the better. Surely you have noticed how Nadal's strengths are nullified when he goes up against Djokovic...

Ajde..???

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 11:39 AM
i don't believe in categorizing certain players' strengths as bad match ups to other players......i would rather accuse the player who's suffering for not making the right adjustments......djokovic made the necessary adjustments and dominated nadal in 2011.....

as a matter of fact djokovic was dominated by nadal before 2011 to an extent where nadal at one point lead 14-4.....if bad match up concept was really true, that should never have happened because by default nadal should have lost almost every match since the beginning of the rivalry or at least since 2007 ending......

del potro, soderling and berdych were tipped to be rafa's bad match ups.....rafa reduced them all to jokes......djokovic will get his beatings very soon.....in my view tennis is all about adaptability.....

Hewitt =Legend
03-15-2012, 11:46 AM
You can look at it that way if you like but I believe that is firmly not the case. How is Federer going to adapt to Nadal's topspin forehand into his single hander? Develop a double hander just against Nadal? There is simply nothing he can do 90% of the time when the rally shifts to the aforementioned cross court exchanges.

As for the Nadal/Djokovic match up and Nadal's early domination, well I think we all know that Nole is a completely different player today. Nadal's strength goes into the Serbian's strength and this is simply a match up issue.

Ajde..???

leng jai
03-15-2012, 11:49 AM
The Nadal and Nole match up is pretty close - its usually whoever is in better form that wins. No surprise that Nadal could barely win a match against him last year. Its nowhere near as bad as Federer Vs Nadal or Roddick Vs Federer. The mental match up at the moment is heavily skewed in the Serb Lord's favor.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 12:01 PM
You can look at it that way if you like but I believe that is firmly not the case. How is Federer going to adapt to Nadal's topspin forehand into his single hander? Develop a double hander just against Nadal? There is simply nothing he can do 90% of the time when the rally shifts to the aforementioned cross court exchanges.

As for the Nadal/Djokovic match up and Nadal's early domination, well I think we all know that Nole is a completely different player today. Nadal's strength goes into the Serbian's strength and this is simply a match up issue.

Ajde..???

develop superior footspeed and counter forehands with forehands.....make better use of his superior serve and other things which he does better than rafa.....but he seems to be a bit of an egoist who thinks it's better losing all the time by staying within his comfort zone than going outside it and having a try and losing differently or even pulling it off with a little bit of luck.....

whatever it is, it's his problem......after all verdasco, bellucci are not posing the same problem to him.....not every leftie can strike it like nadal and has rafa's footspeed.....surely he's played enough times against rafa to make adjustments but he can't seem to do that.....

single handers like james blake, youzhny had no issues against young rafa.....so an all time great is expected to come up with better tactics.....it's all about adjustments and adapting in my view.....

i don't think nadal is losing it because of bad match to djokovic.....nadal is a clown who is hesitating to strike his backhand like in the old times.....djokovic is just cashing in on it.....

bokehlicious
03-15-2012, 12:04 PM
Federer's

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 12:11 PM
djodal rivalry

just one year ago, nadal was leading comfortably.....6 matches happened way too quickly and at the right moment for djokovic.....djokovic was in red hot form and nadal hardly had any time to think about djoker, particularly for that wimbledon final.....

nadal is not a natural talent, he needs time to figure out his challenges.....so sometimes some players cash in multiple times in quick succession against him.....

after some thought process in the off season he almost had him in the AO final but failed to finish him off.....compared to last year that is a big improvement because he found himself in a winning position, something which he couldn't at all in any match last year after miami final, particularly at slams.....

cardio
03-15-2012, 12:34 PM
Forget it, Nadal eats up one handers for breakfast, lunch and super. Only indoors does Federer's backhand breathe a sigh of relief. Nadal must have an 80% winning record against single handers I suspect. Would be nice if someone posted the stats.

So what? 80 % vs single handed backhand would be even less than his average. Nadal has 82 % winning record as pro, period. 80 % is not some miracle percentage for top player.

Borg had 82.7 % career winning record .Lendl had 81,7 % including few tough declining years, when he wasnt even in top 5 any more. Fed is already on decline for couple of years now and still has 81.4 record.

swisht4u
03-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Golubev. A shame he's mentally weak.

yonexforever
03-15-2012, 02:49 PM
Love this topic....but the antidote is swarming the net, but its not a style thats taught much anymore, and players who come in now DONT play the percentages positionally the few times they come in. One of the things i notice when novak plays is the moment nadal slices that backhand novak goes on the offensive.

Haelfix
03-15-2012, 03:05 PM
develop superior footspeed and counter forehands with forehands.....make better use of his superior serve and other things which he does better than rafa.....

Sorry, Rafa for whatever reason hard counters so much of what drives the rest of the tour nuts about Roger.

So I mean he returns Fed better than anyone (perhaps only Murray equals him) despite being far from a good returner in general, he deals with Federer's slice and change of paces better than anyone on tour (which is remarkable for an extreme grip), he has no problem running down a lot of his offensive shots or dropshots and his topspin forces Federer to give up court space as its extremely difficult to take early (and Roger hates playing far behind the baseline).

He also anticipates Federer better than anyone I have ever seen, and more or less knows exactly where the ball is going.

Meanwhile his weak but spinny serve troubles Federer more than any other top 20 on tour, and Rafa has one of the best passing shots in history and that hard counters Federer's net abilities.

Its actually quite insane that a player as good as Roger has so much of his arsenal completely nullified by a player who doesn't have a great serve, doesn't have a great return, has a mediocre backhand, and who's forehand (albeit good) was never going to hit as many winners.

But that's tennis... It's always about matchups, and not about paper matchups.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 03:20 PM
Sorry, Rafa for whatever reason hard counters so much of what drives the rest of the tour nuts about Roger.

So I mean he returns Fed better than anyone (perhaps only Murray equals him) despite being far from a good returner in general, he deals with Federer's slice and change of paces better than anyone on tour (which is remarkable for an extreme grip), he has no problem running down a lot of his offensive shots or dropshots and his topspin forces Federer to give up court space as its extremely difficult to take early (and Roger hates playing far behind the baseline).

He also anticipates Federer better than anyone I have ever seen, and more or less knows exactly where the ball is going.

Meanwhile his weak but spinny serve troubles Federer more than any other top 20 on tour, and Rafa has one of the best passing shots in history and that hard counters Federer's net abilities.

Its actually quite insane that a player as good as Roger has so much of his arsenal completely nullified by a player who doesn't have a great serve, doesn't have a great return, has a mediocre backhand, and who's forehand (albeit good) was never going to hit as many winners.

But that's tennis... It's always about matchups, and not about paper matchups.

in a nutshell, he cannot adapt or change his game.....that is totally his inability and his problem......what do you mean by he 'hates' playing from behind the baseline? as a tennis pro, you have to go by what the situation demands.....that's why i said that he comes off as an egoist who is not prepared to lose by playing out of his comfort zone.....tennis was never about match ups.....it was always about adaptability.....

Johnny Groove
03-15-2012, 03:26 PM
Whoever can take his cross court forehand early and isn't afraid to attack cross court right back into his FH. Often when Rafa is rushed on the forehand, he will drop it short. Then, the player must have the guts to step in and take the offensive, expect a strong passing shot, and hit a quality volley.

MaxPower
03-15-2012, 03:54 PM
Federer's is as good as the 1H BH gets. Maybe put him in the body of a bigger man, like Delpo/Berych/Söderling and he would have more strenght and height to hit those shoulder high bounces that are out of his comfort zone. But with low bounces I think Feds BH is excellent vs Nadals FH.

Kuerten? Good yes but also lets up errors not to mention Kuerten was a worse mover than Fed. Nadals forehand would be just as effective vs it and I think Fed is much better at the half-volley and simply much more complete from that side.

Gasquet? Looks good mostly because he loves hitting the BH late way behind the baseline. Allows him to take full swings and find angles for high pace BH winners. But it also hurts his overall game giving away so much court and real top players will always find ways to punish that.

out_grinder
03-15-2012, 04:46 PM
Whoever can take his cross court forehand early and isn't afraid to attack cross court right back into his FH. Often when Rafa is rushed on the forehand, he will drop it short. Then, the player must have the guts to step in and take the offensive, expect a strong passing shot, and hit a quality volley.

Murray, with his apparently strong BH, and good volleys should be well equipped to do that.

But he's Nadal's pigeon.

Tsonga is another one who could use this approach when he has a good day with the backhand.

But Djokovic can use another approach and that is simply to out-grind Nadal, put the pressure on Nadal to come up with the winners, laugh in his face when he fails to.

Clay Death
03-15-2012, 04:52 PM
i don't believe in categorizing certain players' strengths as bad match ups to other players......i would rather accuse the player who's suffering for not making the right adjustments......djokovic made the necessary adjustments and dominated nadal in 2011.....

as a matter of fact djokovic was dominated by nadal before 2011 to an extent where nadal at one point lead 14-4.....if bad match up concept was really true, that should never have happened because by default nadal should have lost almost every match since the beginning of the rivalry or at least since 2007 ending......

del potro, soderling and berdych were tipped to be rafa's bad match ups.....rafa reduced them all to jokes......djokovic will get his beatings very soon.....in my view tennis is all about adaptability.....

that "bad matchup" shit is only a chicken shit excuse. nobody intelligent really buys that crap.

how does one explain that he has a winning record against all the top players? i dont think that is a "bad matchup" nonsense.

it has everything to do with what he brings to the battlefield.

granted that he lost some of that after 2010 but that is a story for another day.

and finally he has almost always struggled on hard courts so we already know that. lot of player have got the best of him on hard courts. nole and fed just happen to be the best hard court players around. their record says so.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 05:11 PM
that "bad matchup" shit is only a chicken shit excuse. nobody intelligent really buys that crap.

how does one explain that he has a winning record against all the top players? i dont think that is a "bad matchup" nonsense.

it has everything to do with what he brings to the battlefield.

granted that he lost some of that after 2010 but that is a story for another day.

and finally he has almost always struggled on hard courts so we already know that. lot of player have got the best of him on hard courts. nole and fed just happen to be the best hard court players around. their record says so.

concurred like never before, hercules.....he brings a thinking game to the battlefield and that's the reason why he has a winning record over everyone.....the ultimate chess master in the field of physical chess.....

masterclass
03-15-2012, 07:25 PM
Nadal would have more trouble against himself than most players with one-handed backhands. It's not a 1 vs 2-handed thing. Extreme topspin gives most backhands trouble. Nadal gives Murray, Tsonga, Roddick, Monfils, and many other players huge problems on their backhand wings. On the flip size, Gasquet, Almagro, Wawrinka, Kohly, Youzhny, and even Federer, handle it fairly well. Nadal's backhand is a weakness. A vast majority of players have much better forehands than backhands. A backhand weakness does not appear just because Nadal breaks it down.

I've said it a 1000 times, Federer's trouble with Nadal isn't so much his backhand. He handles that wing just fine. His problem is Nadal's quickness and court coverage. Federer is forced to play very aggressively with his groundstrokes (low percentage) and becomes tentative with his approaches because of Nadal's ability to pass on the run. Nadal on the other hand doesn't have to come far out of his comfort zone. If Nadal wasn't so effective with his backhand pass, Federer would dominate this matchup in my opinion. In most of Federer's losses you can pinpoint a game or a point where Nadal took control with one or more spectacular backhand passing shots. It happens almost every match.

As I've pointed out in other threads, Nadal's quickness and court coverage and passing ability are relative to many of today's slower and high bouncing courts that favor his defensive style of tennis, giving him time to reach balls that could be winners on higher speed courts, which then allows him to produce capable shots of his own. This forces the attacking player to hit either riskier lower percentage flatter shots in an attempt to go for winners, or, to change the nature of their game to rally with Nadal, and that becomes a losing proposition for almost any player other than Mr. Djokovic of 2011 and later.

Put Mr. Nadal on the faster lower bouncing surfaces like those you find indoors, or some of the faster hard courts on the US Open summer tour, and he can look almost helpless against attacking players and not only Federer.

Can there be exceptions? Sure, the margins between the top players are not huge. If one of them is having an off day or tournament, they can be beaten in conditions that would generally favor them, just as they can play exceptionally in conditions that don't favor them particularly, or combinations of those two. But these are clearly exceptions.

Nadal on clay is 12-2 vs. Federer - Federer's only 2 wins coming at Madrid and Hamburg.
Nadal on indoor hard is 0-4 vs Federer.
Nadal on grass is 1-2 vs. Federer.
Nadal on hard courts is 5-1 in favor of Nadal, but 4 of those wins were on the slower conditions of Rod Laver Arena (AO) and Miami, the exceptions being a win for Nadal in Dubai 2006 and a win for Federer in Miami 2005.

Their slam and YEC record generally reflect similarly. Mr. Nadal's most singular win in the faster US Open conditions was in 2010, where he served unusually well, and had a good draw. Prior to that, he hadn't gone beyond the semis (2) and had lost to lower ranked players. In 2011, the conditions were slower than usual. Mr. Federer won his lone Roland Garros major when Mr. Nadal lost his only match there to Robin Soderling, but Federer still has made 4 finals there, only to lose to Mr. Nadal.

They have met much more on clay, including the clay slam, because Mr. Federer is still an excellent clay court player and can go deep enough in a tournament to meet Mr. Nadal; he's just not as good there as the Clay Court King, Nadal.

They have almost no meetings in faster non-high bounce conditions other than the Indoor YEC, because Nadal has generally not been able to go deep enough in those tournaments to meet Federer, who clearly does perform well in those conditions (5 straight US Open wins and a final).

They have 4 meetings indoors, because they are forced to meet in the Year End Championships due to the round robin and top 8 players in the world format.

There is no mystery here. These conclusions are all based on the record.

Respectfully,
masterclass

zerocool_
03-15-2012, 07:29 PM
Kuerten's, arguably one of the greatest single-handers ever; tall and with variety, he could do absolutely anything he wanted with the shot. Would've loved to see BH/FH rallies between them, unfortunately wasn't meant to be.

This.

TheTennisFanatic
03-15-2012, 07:43 PM
concurred like never before, hercules.....he brings a thinking game to the battlefield and that's the reason why he has a winning record over everyone.....the ultimate chess master in the field of physical chess.....

mind giving an example of when rafa actually changed tactics against someone? I don't see nadal's matches unless he plays my favorite players or finals but I just see him playing the same way against everyone. Federer on the other hand plays much differently against different players like slicing a lot against tall players, changing up his serves etc.

sexybeast
03-15-2012, 08:30 PM
mind giving an example of when rafa actually changed tactics against someone? I don't see nadal's matches unless he plays my favorite players or finals but I just see him playing the same way against everyone. Federer on the other hand plays much differently against different players like slicing a lot against tall players, changing up his serves etc.

I dont agree, Nadal has changed his approach against power players. Before he had great difficulty with players like Berdych but now he has learned to take control of the point earlier and also to dominate the point early after serve with inside out forehands.

martinatreue
03-15-2012, 09:47 PM
Topspin, not slice.

Obviously the answer is none of them, but if forced to be a rightie with a one handed-backhand, whose would you pick to play against the Nadal forehand?

Bonus points for backing up your answer with analysis as to why the biomechanics/grip/technique of your chosen player's backhand make him more favourable against Nadz.

Why leave out the flat drive? There is more than just topspin or slice!

out_grinder
03-15-2012, 09:57 PM
There is no such thing as a 'flat drive' - either a shot topspin shot that has little topspin on it, or a slice that has little slice on it.

I doubt anyone hits their backhand like that and I doubt either type of shot would be much use against Nadal.

martinatreue
03-15-2012, 10:12 PM
There is no such thing as a 'flat drive' - either a shot topspin shot that has little topspin on it, or a slice that has little slice on it.

I doubt anyone hits their backhand like that and I doubt either type of shot would be much use against Nadal.


Yeah I see what you mean but some people hit a very heavy topspin shot and others put very little and then it's referred to as flat. Nobody hit with zero spin but that doesn't mean people don't hit the ball pretty flat. Anyays... back to the orignial question... I think nobody's one hander and really pretty much nobody's two hander stands up too well against Rafa's forehand on slow courts. on faster courts, Roger Federer very often pulls Nadal WAY OFF THE COURT with the short backhand crosscourt angle and then takes his backhand or forehand down the line. That pattern is very troublesome for Rafa but the key is mixing it up. Any player (one or two hander) cannot just stand there and repeatedly hit to his forehand and think they won't get pushed back by that spin and angle.

RagingLamb
03-16-2012, 12:21 AM
one word: Boris Becker

fast_clay
03-16-2012, 12:41 AM
one word: Boris Becker

yes, you are correct... boris would have said 'f*** off mate' with a few choice forearmed crosscourt, on-the-rise bhs and then maybe a big 102mph in-to-outer very early in a match which would have rendered nadal's undergarments properly soiled...

leng jai
03-16-2012, 12:48 AM
yes, you are correct... boris would have said 'f*** off mate' with a few choice forearmed crosscourt, on-the-rise bhs and then maybe a big 102mph in-to-outer very early in a match which would have rendered nadal's undergarments properly soiled...

Boris Becker = one word mate? I don't even think Bogans think thats right :speakles:

Ajde.