Llodra fined for abusing a fan. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Llodra fined for abusing a fan.

Pages : [1] 2

martinatreue
03-12-2012, 06:18 AM
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/12032012/58/llodra-fined-abusing-fan.html

leng jai
03-12-2012, 06:19 AM
Guy will be on the streets after that hefty punishment.

Ajde.

Kat_YYZ
03-12-2012, 06:28 AM
that must be the ATP official press release... no details about what happened, even though everyone on the internet is talking about it. :lol: So Orwellian.

Renaud
03-12-2012, 07:03 AM
Few months ago....:
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/llodra-denies-making-racist-remark-20110524-1f1il.html

Clay Death
03-12-2012, 07:04 AM
did llodra think he was on a basketball court?

BroTree123
03-12-2012, 07:09 AM
Few month ago....:
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/llodra-denies-making-racist-remark-20110524-1f1il.html

Last year*.

:spit:. He is racist :o.

Pirata.
03-12-2012, 07:13 AM
Typical excuse when someone says something racist, followed quickly by, "How can I be racist, my best friend/nanny/doctor/hairdresser/yoga teacher/travel agent is black/Hispanic/Asian/gay! Being accused of racism is actually worse than being racist!"

Llodra :facepalm:

tripwires
03-12-2012, 07:15 AM
:haha:

Dying to know what happened with the fan.

leng jai
03-12-2012, 07:17 AM
:haha:

Dying to know what happened with the fan.

We are lucky to have escaped from the AO match unscathed.

Ajde.

duong
03-12-2012, 07:47 AM
Typical excuse when someone says something racist, followed quickly by, "How can I be racist, my best friend/nanny/doctor/hairdresser/yoga teacher/travel agent is black/Hispanic/Asian/gay! Being accused of racism is actually worse than being racist!"


I don't think he's racist, but he's very rude for sure.

It's not at all the first time he's insulted persons of the public, in Marseilles he recently shouted "shut up" ("ta gueule" in French, it may be more rude in French) to someone in the audience.

Naudio Spanlatine
03-12-2012, 08:40 AM
Mika:facepalm:

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 09:04 AM
$2,500 for making a comment like this? Are they serious? Nalbandian gets 8k for getting screwed over by Nouni and this clown gets away with a slap on the wrist? Unacceptable.

I like Llodra as much as the next person but I lost a lot of respect for him with this incident. The ATP should look into a more serious suspension for Mika. It's incredibly disappointing to know that this entire time, I have been supporting someone who hurls racist insults at fans just because they happen to support Gulbis.

Suspend him.

Sombrerero loco
03-12-2012, 10:16 AM
omg and i missed it =( someone who was there at the match??

SKozak
03-12-2012, 10:21 AM
According to Twitter messages, fan behaviour was f**ing and Llodra said to him "F*cking Chinese". Is it racism?

Kat_YYZ
03-12-2012, 10:30 AM
omg and i missed it =( someone who was there at the match??

this blogger claims to know someone who was there
http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2012/03/is-michael-llodra-friend-of-john.html

follow-up post:
http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2012/03/michael-llodras-walk-of-shame.html

dabeast
03-12-2012, 10:37 AM
yea that is low from Llodra, dunno why he got so heated over someone rooting for his opponent. He cursed at the Chinese fan, but I don't think you can call it racism, just immature and rude. Didn't know he acts like Clement with the ball kids. That's the kind of stuff I can't stand seeing from pros, treating ball boys like shit.

alter ego
03-12-2012, 10:38 AM
How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

Topspindoctor
03-12-2012, 10:39 AM
Judging by the crowds in RG, this doesn't come as a surprise; Llodra simply behaved like an average Frenchman.

dabeast
03-12-2012, 10:40 AM
^^ now that's racism.

Time Violation
03-12-2012, 10:42 AM
How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

She wasn't even Chinese, calling every Asian Chinese isn't the smartest thing to do. Adding f*king before the word isn't helping much either :p

sicko
03-12-2012, 10:46 AM
How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

only racists themselves ask these questions...


but the fine is pathetic, everyone should have the right to say whatever the fuck he/she wants, as long as it's not jeopardizing anyone....

alter ego
03-12-2012, 10:50 AM
only racists themselves ask these questions...


but the fine is pathetic, everyone should have the right to say whatever the fuck he/she wants, as long as it's not jeopardizing anyone....

And only a paranoid would say that Llodra "jeopardize" the fucking chinese.

FlameOn
03-12-2012, 11:00 AM
He was also supposed to phone the person and apologize but he didn't end up doing it. Racist and a coward aswell :wavey:.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 11:00 AM
How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

Well she was Korean, not Chinese. Apparently he also added the C you next Tuesday word to it, as if f****n wasn't enough.

It operates on the extremely racist assumption that every single person of Asian origin is the same irrespective of country of origin and culture. For instance, it's like me saying that every Caucasian person I see is American, simply on the basis of their Caucasian appearance and no other markers. Or me saying that French, German and Czech people are exactly the same when clearly, they are not. It's reductive, it's disrespectful and it makes Llodra look stupid.

nellis_lv
03-12-2012, 11:06 AM
We are lucky to have escaped from the AO match unscathed.

Ajde.

:lol:

Helevorn
03-12-2012, 11:06 AM
Isn't even Llodra a Spanish surname?

Dmitry Verdasco
03-12-2012, 11:10 AM
Lucky he's a QT.

We are lucky to have escaped from the AO match unscathed.

Ajde.

You're annoying and not funny.

Ouragan
03-12-2012, 11:12 AM
She wasn't even Chinese, calling every Asian Chinese isn't the smartest thing to do. Adding f*king before the word isn't helping much either :p

I live in Asia and get called American all the time. Am I supposed to rant about racism every single time?

scoobs
03-12-2012, 11:12 AM
I did like the guy but this sort of thing is really disappointing.

The outburst is bad enough, but I gather he then complained about the severity of the fine and said it should be equivalent to swearing, which I think compounds the classiness. Can't really tolerate this sort of behaviour.

Kat_YYZ
03-12-2012, 11:14 AM
How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

If you're standing in line with some person and out of boredom you say 'hey, you're Chinese; what do you think of the Three Gorges Dam project?" and the person says "I'm not Chinese, I'm Korean" -- well, I don't think that makes you a racist. It shows some ignorance on your part, but it's just a case of assuming something.

But when you say "fucking _____" (fill in the blank with some nationality/ethnicity: Chinese, Indian, Arab, etc) it is generally well-known that you are not simply 'stating a fact*' about the person and then adding the word "fucking" (*though in this case it was not a fact).

I mean what does it matter if she is Chinese? Why is that essential to his insult? Why didn't he say "Fucking Gulbis fan"?

Time Violation
03-12-2012, 11:14 AM
I live in Asia and get called American all the time. Am I supposed to rant about racism every single time?

If you got called f*king yank all the time, maybe you would

tripwires
03-12-2012, 11:20 AM
We are lucky to have escaped from the AO match unscathed.

Ajde.

Especially in light of the fact that he called the Gulbis-supporting fan a "fucking Chinese". I'm fucking Chinese too and I was drooling all over Gulbis during that AO match. :speakles:

How the fuck is racisim to call a chinese, chinese?

He said "fucking" Chinese. Didn't you read the article? Even if it's not racist per se it's slightly offensive.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 11:28 AM
I live in Asia and get called American all the time. Am I supposed to rant about racism every single time?

I dunno, did you pay good money to watch a tennis match, root for your player and then get called an "f****** American c***" by his opponent?

Context.

scoobs
03-12-2012, 11:30 AM
I don't know if he is genuinely racist or just dumb but it's the sort of low-level sort of racial remark that's totally unnecessary and still far too prevalent.

Dumb enough to say something like that in the heat of the moment? Act contrite, take your fine and reassure people you're just an idiot, not a bigot.

Don't then complain about your level of fine and act like you did nothing wrong. Like Serena at the US Open with the whole line-judge ball-throat incident, if you act like you're the victim then nobody is going to believe you're remotely sorry - and that your behaviour was, in your eyes, acceptable.

Time Violation
03-12-2012, 11:37 AM
Act contrite, take your fine and reassure people you're just an idiot, not a bigot.

I guess Llodra did try extra hard on the idiot part :p

According to a Chinese reporter, Llodra "apologized" during his interview, he said: "my words were not aimed at China, I love Chinese, I can totally make love with a Chinese girl..." and an ATP officer stopped him at that point.

FlameOn
03-12-2012, 11:38 AM
I'll laugh if Llodra when he goes to Shanghai Masters this year or whatever gets greeted by a huge crowd of boos :lol:.

Johnny Groove
03-12-2012, 11:43 AM
I simply cannot tolerate this sort of thing. Even in the heat of battle of a tennis match.

And this is not the first time something of this nature has happened with Llodra, as evidenced by a link earlier in this thread.

The fine was shit, and Llodra will not be deterred from doing this again.

ATP dropping the ball once more.

duong
03-12-2012, 11:49 AM
Frankly speaking, my wife is Chinese, I go to China every year but I'm fed-up with racism being called for every fucking word (the Chinese will not be the last ones to use them actually : they are not used to the western hypocrisy as far as this is concerned).

The REAL racism in society, and awful attitude towards people of foreign origins, which are very deep problems I'm utterly concerned with, are not really connected with those words.

I don't think you can fight racism with hypocrisy and I'm more concerned with the real problems of people from foreign origin than with words.

According to a Chinese reporter, Llodra "apologized" during his interview, he said: "my words were not aimed at china, I love Chinese, I can totally make love with a Chinese girl..." and an ATP officer stopped him at that point.

That's it : that's typical Llodra : low IQ, childish, rude, arrogant, irritative sometimes (typical French average will you say ? yes but other French players are not like that ;) ). Racist I don't know.

A few weeks ago he said in French media that Marco Chiudinelli was a bad and disreputable character and he badly wanted to beat him seemingly only because Chiudinelli had once taken his favorite locker during Roland-Garros.

Llodra is also used to being very rude with ballkids just like Arnaud Clément.

tripwires
03-12-2012, 11:51 AM
I guess Llodra did try extra hard on the idiot part :p

Was that a real quote?

Time Violation
03-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Was that a real quote?

It was posted in the results thread... doesn't seem like something made up to me

Agrajag
03-12-2012, 11:58 AM
As a Llodra fan, I don't like what he said, but I don't think it's the end of the world. A stupid remark made in anger, he should have just apologized and accepted the fine. When he doesn't it just makes it much worse.

According to a Chinese reporter, Llodra "apologized" during his interview, he said: "my words were not aimed at china, I love Chinese, I can totally make love with a Chinese girl..." and an ATP officer stopped him at that point.


This is one of those quotes where you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Agrajag
03-12-2012, 11:59 AM
Was that a real quote?

If it's fake you just have to say "too good" to whoever made it up.

Time Violation
03-12-2012, 12:00 PM
If it's fake you just have to say "too good" to whoever made it up.

Se non è vero, è ben trovato :D

tripwires
03-12-2012, 12:03 PM
It was posted in the results thread... doesn't seem like something made up to me

If it's fake you just have to say "too good" to whoever made it up.

Just asking cos there was no source, and I wanted to make sure it's real before I say that Llodra sounds like a fucking dumbass. :) Not racist per se, just bloody stupid.

xelena
03-12-2012, 12:23 PM
Firstly, can we get the insult sentence in French?? cause if he said putain (and that's translated as fucking) it's not really rude as the f**ing in english.

2. We are all racist at some point, in terms that , when we're upset and our anger is toward someone, if that someone has visually something particular like: race, fat,bold,.. then we'd insult them in that direction..
"f***ing fat idiot" ,"f--ing arab,tutsi,hutsi" ...

3. LLodra is perhaps bit thick in the head .. maybe stupid, who knows :)

Dougie
03-12-2012, 12:29 PM
Such stupid behavior from Llodra. He has one of the most likeable games on tour, yet his personality seems to be something else.

duong
03-12-2012, 12:40 PM
2. We are all racist at some point, in terms that , when we're upset and our anger is toward someone, if that someone has visually something particular like: race, fat,bold,.. then we'd insult them in that direction..
"f***ing fat idiot" ,"f--ing arab,tutsi,hutsi" ...

I wouldn't call that racism (although yes it's focusing in one "racial point" than over another peculiarity "stupid big nose woman" :lol: )

but yes in cases like that when you don't know somebody you can use it as a description.

I remember sometimes when someone asked me : "who told you that ? (for instance if I was informed of something) and I felt like answering "a man, you know a black man at the entrance" and I hesitated because of thinking what people might think about that and then I tried to say something else "a man with a big nose" or something ... of course I didn't think of being "black" as something bad at all, but well in our society ... that's also why I don't like those kinds of "taboos" because it reveals an inner racism of society in the meaning that being black would be considered as a "bad thing" whereas in my mind it's just a natural thing just like being tall or something (and please don't go in general theories about the idea that "there's no race" with a lot of different genes and so on, nobody would think of such theory about being tall, it's just an appearance :rolleyes: ), just it's a less common feature than being tall and it's more precise than "tall" :shrug:

Anyway these are only general considerations :shrug:

Beside that, Llodra is stupid, yes :lol: ... and maybe racist, I don't know.

DanaKz
03-12-2012, 01:12 PM
Firstly, can we get the insult sentence in French?? cause if he said putain (and that's translated as fucking) it's not really rude as the f**ing in english.



He said "putain foutu chatte chinoise"

P.S. Pardon my French.

Henry Chinaski
03-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I mean what does it matter if she is Chinese? Why is that essential to his insult? Why didn't he say "Fucking Gulbis fan"?

Because that's a much worse insult and even Llodra wouldn't stoop so low.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 01:29 PM
Nice to read that people have finally realized the kind of guy he is.

Llodra
Clement
Bogomolov

are absolute scum.

duong
03-12-2012, 01:37 PM
He said "putain foutu chatte chinoise"

P.S. Pardon my French.

sounds weird, I read something about "c.u.n.t", may be "enculé", some people in France say "enculé" very often (seems like "fucking" in English speaking countries from what I heard :lol: ), and Llodra rather typically says that.

BroTree123
03-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Beauty fades, dumb is forever.

DanaKz
03-12-2012, 02:01 PM
sounds weird, I read something about "c.u.n.t", may be "enculé", some people in France say "enculé" very often (seems like "fucking" in English speaking countries from what I heard :lol: ), and Llodra rather typically says that.

I don't know, I don't speak French, it was what I read, probably this guy softened it for not being banned?

Mystique
03-12-2012, 02:02 PM
I simply cannot tolerate this sort of thing. Even in the heat of battle of a tennis match.

And this is not the first time something of this nature has happened with Llodra, as evidenced by a link earlier in this thread.

The fine was shit, and Llodra will not be deterred from doing this again.

ATP dropping the ball once more.

I agree. :o
This is so embarrassing, shame on you Mika. I am sure most of France agrees too.
His game really doesnt suit his personality :eek:

Shame on ATP too for these joke fines.

simplet
03-12-2012, 02:14 PM
He said "putain foutu chatte chinoise"

P.S. Pardon my French.

What? That doesn't even sound like a real insult. Where did you get that info?

If that's really what he said I don't even know if you can call that an insult. The phrasing is insulting yes, but depending on what he meant by "chatte" he could be saying somewhat that the girl is hot (in a very annoyed/insulting way, but I'm really trying to make sense of that "insult" here, it doesn't make a lot of sense).

edit : I guess you could also translate that as him calling her a c**t, except "chatte" is a LOT less demeaning than "c**t" in french. It's kind of vulgar but noone uses it to insult people. Literally (and figuratively) it means "pussy".

Snowwy
03-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Not a big surprise to me.

out_grinder
03-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Nice to read that people have finally realized the kind of guy he is.

Llodra
Clement
Bogomolov

are absolute scum.

Haha, well you obviously have a vested interest in calling Llodra 'scum' in lieu of recent events.

Nothing wrong with Llodra.

DanaKz
03-12-2012, 02:29 PM
What? That doesn't even sound like a real insult. Where did you get that info?

If that's really what he said I don't even know if you can call that an insult. The phrasing is insulting yes, but depending on what he meant by "chatte" he could be saying somewhat that the girl is hot (in a very annoyed/insulting way, but I'm really trying to make sense of that "insult" here, it doesn't make a lot of sense).

edit : I guess you could also translate that as him calling her a c**t, except "chatte" is a LOT less demeaning than "c**t" in french. It's kind of vulgar but noone uses it to insult people. Literally (and figuratively) it means "pussy".

I saw it in this Asian girl's brother's twitter. Someone from my list retweeted it.

MrEleganza
03-12-2012, 02:41 PM
I wouldn't call that racism (although yes it's focusing in one "racial point" than over another peculiarity "stupid big nose woman" :lol: )

but yes in cases like that when you don't know somebody you can use it as a description.

I remember sometimes when someone asked me : "who told you that ? (for instance if I was informed of something) and I felt like answering "a man, you know a black man at the entrance" and I hesitated because of thinking what people might think about that and then I tried to say something else "a man with a big nose" or something ... of course I didn't think of being "black" as something bad at all, but well in our society ... that's also why I don't like those kinds of "taboos" because it reveals an inner racism of society in the meaning that being black would be considered as a "bad thing" whereas in my mind it's just a natural thing just like being tall or something (and please don't go in general theories about the idea that "there's no race" with a lot of different genes and so on, nobody would think of such theory about being tall, it's just an appearance :rolleyes: ), just it's a less common feature than being tall and it's more precise than "tall" :shrug:

Anyway these are only general considerations :shrug:

Beside that, Llodra is stupid, yes :lol: ... and maybe racist, I don't know.

That's different, though. If you need to describe someone, of course it's appropriate to use their race. There was no reason for Llodra to bring up her race at all! THAT'S what makes it a racist remark (not necessarily saying Llodra is a racist, but what he said her was racist) because it was completely, entirely unnecessary for him to bring up her race.

duong
03-12-2012, 02:46 PM
edit : I guess you could also translate that as him calling her a c**t, except "chatte" is a LOT less demeaning than "c**t" in french. It's kind of vulgar but noone uses it to insult people. Literally (and figuratively) it means "pussy".

yes, like "pussy", but "pussy" is rude anyway :lol:

yes, it sounds weird

actually when I read "c.u.n.t" on the Canadian guy's blog, I looked at the dictionary and "chatte" was one of the translations.

But "enculé" also was, and sounds more likely to me.

Anyway both "enculé" and "chatte" are rude, "chatte" being also very vulgar.

xelena
03-12-2012, 02:48 PM
he said "chatte" ?ahahahahahha No way!!! can not believe this :)

duong, I didnt want to say that saying "stupid big nose dude" is racism.. i wanted to say that if the person is asian,black,arab,etc.. this is the first thing that someone will insult them about. Then if this is not the case it's another visual feature like fat,blind,bald,etc... therefore, human to human is always the same story :)

xelena
03-12-2012, 02:52 PM
nio

duong
03-12-2012, 02:58 PM
That's different, though. If you need to describe someone, of course it's appropriate to use their race. There was no reason for Llodra to bring up her race at all! THAT'S what makes it a racist remark (not necessarily saying Llodra is a racist, but what he said her was racist) because it was completely, entirely unnecessary for him to bring up her race.

in a way you're right he could have said "fucking woman" (sorry for ladies if they feel insulted :lol: )

but in another way it's just an additive describing character :shrug:

Actually what makes it a racist remark from what I understand is that there is an insult ("fucking" or "c.u.n.t") + a "race" distinction.

I can understand that people who are used to receiving racist insults are very sensitive, even oversensitive, about things like that,

but I can also understand that some people may just add a word like that as a description.

It's actually different from what Brydan Klein said : "n.i.g.g.e.r" was clearly associated with a racist context.

Anyway my primary reproach to Llodra is ... about being very rude and insulting people in the public. But I know everything which is related to racism adds much more to the sentence, maybe for a right reason, maybe not, here I would rather say not.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 03:51 PM
in a way you're right he could have said "fucking woman" (sorry for ladies if they feel insulted :lol: )

but in another way it's just an additive describing character :shrug:

Actually what makes it a racist remark from what I understand is that there is an insult ("fucking" or "c.u.n.t") + a "race" distinction.

I can understand that people who are used to receiving racist insults are very sensitive, even oversensitive, about things like that,

but I can also understand that some people may just add a word like that as a description.

It's actually different from what Brydan Klein said : "n.i.g.g.e.r" was clearly associated with a racist context.

Anyway my primary reproach to Llodra is ... about being very rude and insulting people in the public. But I know everything which is related to racism adds much more to the sentence, maybe for a right reason, maybe not, here I would rather say not.

Yeah, poor dear Llodra is just a government employee keeping tabs on the nationalities of the supporters of the guy he's playing against. It's also a common habit for him to account for it especially when he's raging on court.

Why else would he pick out that supporter?

Thanks for clearing the issue.

Now the ATP, "fucking" bastards, how dare they fine this fine "French" gentleman. Scandal.

MrEleganza
03-12-2012, 04:08 PM
in a way you're right he could have said "fucking woman" (sorry for ladies if they feel insulted :lol: )

but in another way it's just an additive describing character :shrug:

Actually what makes it a racist remark from what I understand is that there is an insult ("fucking" or "c.u.n.t") + a "race" distinction.

I can understand that people who are used to receiving racist insults are very sensitive, even oversensitive, about things like that,

but I can also understand that some people may just add a word like that as a description.

It's actually different from what Brydan Klein said : "n.i.g.g.e.r" was clearly associated with a racist context.

Anyway my primary reproach to Llodra is ... about being very rude and insulting people in the public. But I know everything which is related to racism adds much more to the sentence, maybe for a right reason, maybe not, here I would rather say not.

But "fucking woman," (or, more succinctly, bitch) would be wrong, too. When the race/gender description isn't necessary to get your insult across, then adding it anyway implies that there is something wrong with being that race/gender/etc., or at least worthy of having special insult-words, like bitch or the N-word, that apply only to them. There are so many race/gender-neutral insults (like asshole, idiot, whatever), that if you bypass those for one that applies only to that race/gender, it's reasonable to infer racism/sexism/bigotry from the remark.

duong
03-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Yeah, poor dear Llodra is just a government employee keeping tabs on the nationalities of the supporters of the guy he's playing against. It's also a common habit for him to account for it especially when he's raging on court.

Why else would he pick out that supporter ?

:confused:

I dont know but probably that lady made more noise than the other people at that moment or during the whole match, the match wasn't played on centre court :shrug:

hard to understand you recently :confused:

do you really think that Llodra suddenly during the match felt a sudden desire to insult the Chinese community and picked a nobody in the public to realize this desire ?

duong
03-12-2012, 04:13 PM
But "fucking woman," (or, more succinctly, bitch) would be wrong, too. When the race/gender description isn't necessary to get your insult across, then adding it anyway implies that there is something wrong with being that race/gender/etc., or at least worthy of having special insult-words, like bitch or the N-word, that apply only to them. There are so many race/gender-neutral insults (like asshole, idiot, whatever), that if you bypass those for one that applies only to that race/gender, it's reasonable to infer racism/sexism/bigotry from the remark.

I just have a very simple question : if he felt like saying "fucking" to that lady, which word should he have used beside "fucking" without insulting any race/gender ?

When I say "crazy man !" do I "imply there's something wrong about being a human" ? about being a male ? Do I insult humanity or the male gender ?

PS : please note that I don't say that to defend Llodra at all, I don't like him at all although I think he's no devil, but there's something about your logic which I don't understand.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 04:19 PM
:confused:

I dont know but probably that lady made more noise than the other people at that moment or during the whole match, the match wasn't played on centre court :shrug:

hard to understand you recently :confused:

do you really think that Llodra suddenly during the match felt a sudden desire to insult the Chinese community and picked a nobody in the public to realize this desire ?

He's made quasi-racist remarks on several occasions, he's a dumbass (probably not his fault for that one). Do you really think it's that accidental?

You also believe in Santa, I suppose. Which is ok, but don't claim that that has any reflection on reality.
It's pretty easy with racism, you're either racist, or you're not. People don't just tickle with the boundaries between racist slurs and cursing just for the fun of it.

I think we're pretty clear, you can keep it up with how his racist remarks were not "mean" enough, but frankly I don't give a shit. He still should've had his "French" ass burnt for it.

duong
03-12-2012, 04:23 PM
He's made quasi-racist remarks on several occasions, he's a dumbass (probably not his fault for that one). Do you really think it's that accidental?

You also believe in Santa, I suppose. Which is ok, but don't claim that that has any reflection on reality.
It's pretty easy with racism, you're either racist, or you're not. People don't just tickle with the boundaries between racist slurs and cursing just for the fun of it.

I think we're pretty clear, you can keep it up with how his racist remarks were not "mean" enough, but frankly I don't give a shit. He still should've had his "French" ass burnt for it.

I don't want to defend Llodra at all, I don't care about him at all, but I guess you have some problems at the moment because you're getting really crazy and very insulting to me :confused:

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 04:28 PM
I don't want to defend Llodra at all, I don't care about him at all, but I guess you have some problems at the moment because you're getting really crazy and very insulting to me :confused:

Where did I insult you?...I'm just saying your view on this matter is horribly skewed. Sarcasm and deriding are my way of dealing with it.

I'll concisely put it at this: tolerance for racist slurs/comments/apropos = ZERO. That's how it should be, anywhere, for anyone, for any race.

duong
03-12-2012, 04:34 PM
Where did I insult you?...I'm just saying your view on this matter is horribly skewed. Sarcasm and deriding are my way of dealing with it.

I'll concisely put it at this: tolerance for racist slurs/comments/apropos = ZERO. That's how it should be, anywhere, for anyone, for any race.

"Tolerance for racist slurs" ?

that's an insult to me, MUCH MUCH WORSE than any word.

I will stop here, as you have your view and you don't want to understand me at all, you just want to insult.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 04:38 PM
Before we get bogged down in the semantics/nuances of what he said, didn't say or whatever, consider this:

This is a woman who went to IW, paid for her tickets and went to go see a match. From my understanding, she was rooting for Gulbis and cheering and that in itself is not wrong. She did not violate any rules. People like her -- like all of us -- are the reason why guys like Federer, Nadal, Llodra, whomever can go around and lead their fabulous jet-setting lifestyles: we are actually willing to pay to see them hit a fuzzy yellow ball over the net.

Like it or not, Llodra cannot go around insulting members of the audience if he feels like it, regardless of whether they were rooting for him or Ernie. These people paid to watch them play, not to be insulted by a guy whose very livelihood is dependent on their patronage. If anything, Llodra should have been happy that someone was actually watching his match as most people in GS's usually ignore him as the strange doubles specialist/journeyman/WCT stripper/bird-killer/dude who hid naked in Ljubicic's locker.

Again, regardless of whether it was racist (and it most definitely was a racist comment), Llodra should have the sense to realize that fans are what drive this sport and he has essentially shot himself in the foot by alienating a lot of them.

MrEleganza
03-12-2012, 04:41 PM
I just have a very simple question : if he felt like saying "fucking" to that lady, which word should he have used beside "fucking" without insulting any race/gender ?

Fucking asshole. Fucking jerk. Fucking idiot.

When I say "crazy man !" do I "imply there's something wrong about being a human" ? about being a male ? Do I insult humanity or the male gender ?

Point taken. I'm not saying everytime someone refers to gender at least, they are being sexist. HOWEVER, in society and history at large, male-specific insults carry little to no weight. Similarly, if someone called me a honky or a cracker, that would carry little weight and speaking personally, I would be more amused than anything, not offended, because historically and culturally, there is no stigma attached to being white (or male). There IS a large canon of bigotry against women non-whites throughout history that persists to present day. Ergo, insults that reference non-male genders and non-white racists DO carry weight EVEN if a buzzword like the N-word is not used.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 04:41 PM
"Tolerance for racist slurs" ?

that's an insult to me, MUCH MUCH WORSE than any word.

I will stop here, as you have your view and you don't want to understand me at all, you just want to insult.

Is this some sort of language barrier thing? I'm not calling you racist, if that's what you're trying to say.

Ouragan
03-12-2012, 04:44 PM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

duong
03-12-2012, 04:45 PM
Is this some sort of language barrier thing? I'm not calling you racist, if that's what you're trying to say.

"tolerance for racist slurs" is what you said, the meaning is clear, it doesn't mean racist,

but I don't think I'm tolerant for racist slurs because I discuss about the fact that so many words are considered as "racist slurs" (which imo is even very bad for people who feel insulted because if you feel insulted more than you should, you feel very bad :shrug: ) and I want to understand better why people consider like that : what sounds simple and obvious to you in one meaning sounds simple to me in another meaning :shrug:

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 04:49 PM
"tolerance for racist slurs" is what you said, the meaning is clear, it doesn't mean racist,

but I don't think I'm tolerant for racist slurs because I discuss about the fact that so many words are considered as "racist slurs" (which imo is even very bad for people who feel insulted because if you feel insulted more than you should, you feel very bad :shrug: )

I was talking in general terms, that line had nothing to do with you. Furthermore I'll say that there is no need for racist comments, even mild ones, no matter if you're a sportsmen or whatever else.

MrEleganza
03-12-2012, 04:49 PM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

LOL. Talk about getting caught up in nuance/semantics. You Llodra's lawyer?

It's easier to say race than nationality. If Llodra is innocent of racism because Chinese technically isn't a race, that doesn't let him off the hook because as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the lady is Korean. Llodra just looked at her and said "Chinese!" (Assuming the stories are true).

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 04:49 PM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

Since Google search seems beyond your capacities, here are some links.

http://chineseculture.about.com/od/historyofchina/a/raceinChina.htm
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/17/rise_of_the_hans

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

It is.

cardio
03-12-2012, 04:54 PM
It is funny how people discuss which insult is more appropriate / acceptable. You cant obviously mention race, it is big taboo. Gender is also taboo. Sexual orientation is huge NO-No. Weight is not acceptable. Maybe age ? Or just teach Llodra how to shout in French : Shut up, you ugly piece of shit ! This is almost flattery , I guess...

duong
03-12-2012, 04:55 PM
Point taken. I'm not saying everytime someone refers to gender at least, they are being sexist. HOWEVER, in society and history at large, male-specific insults carry little to no weight. Similarly, if someone called me a honky or a cracker, that would carry little weight and speaking personally, I would be more amused than anything, not offended, because historically and culturally, there is no stigma attached to being white (or male). There IS a large canon of bigotry against women non-whites throughout history that persists to present day. Ergo, insults that reference non-male genders and non-white racists DO carry weight EVEN if a buzzword like the N-word is not used.

it sounds complicated to me, I mean I speak about "the Chinese" all the time in my life, but then I should stop using the word when it's near an insulting word :shrug:

And I don't like that because it implies that "Chinese" or "Black" refers to a bad thing, a taboo or whatever and I don't feel like thinking of those things when I speak yet I do have to think of those because some other people have these nasty thoughts in their minds, it's as if for me we made these nasty thoughts live through them being taboos.

I would prefer something more natural, because I feel that it's a better way to really accept differences and things in common.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 04:58 PM
Or just teach Llodra how to shout in French : Shut up, you ugly piece of shit ! This is almost flattery , I guess...

No, that's called Verbal Abuse and I suspect the reason he booked it out of town so quickly is because she'd be well within her rights to sue him.

duong
03-12-2012, 04:59 PM
Since Google search seems beyond your capacities, here are some links.

http://chineseculture.about.com/od/historyofchina/a/raceinChina.htm
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/17/rise_of_the_hans

there's nothing in that which says that Chinese is a race, if ever races did mean something precise.

I mean I can understand Mr Eleganza's answer, but this answer is stupid to Ouragan's genuine question.

Johnny Groove
03-12-2012, 04:59 PM
Llodra should be fined $12,725, his 2nd round check, and another $3,816, his doubles 1st round check, a total of $16,541, a true fucking fine.

And see if he makes another remark like this ever again.

$2,500? He wipes his ass with that money.

And take that $16,541 and donate it to a charity helping battered Chinese women.

Stronga23
03-12-2012, 05:00 PM
Gael may be a clown but at least he has class that is off the charts unlike Mika.

duong
03-12-2012, 05:02 PM
I'll stop here : too many taboos, prejudice, proprieties in all that :shrug:

I know what racist is, my government uses racist prejudice and racist reasonings to expel people who live happily in France, and it does much more harm than any word like "fucking ..." pronounced for whatever reason.

But it's like that : very often people prefer looking at unreal problems they can see than at real ones they can't see.

MrEleganza
03-12-2012, 05:03 PM
it sounds complicated to me, I mean I speak about "the Chinese" all the time in my life, but then I should stop using the word when it's near an insulting word :shrug:


Well, yes. If it's in conjunction with an insult, I don't think one should refer to race or gender. Just my opinion, and I'm not perfect by any means when it comes to this.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 05:08 PM
there's nothing in that which says that Chinese is a race, if ever races did mean something precise.

I mean I can understand Mr Eleganza's answer, but this answer is stupid to Ouragan's genuine question.

Then you probably don't know how to read because the links indicate the origin of the Han Race (The term was later picked up by revolutionary Sun Yatsen who used it to refer to a Han race that excluded the ruling Manchus who made up the Qing Dynasty, the last dynasty of China) and goes further to explain that the Han Race is the predominant race in China (With China's new prominence in global affairs, the Han race, which constitutes 90 percent of the Chinese population, is suddenly the most dominant cohesive ethnic group in the world )

Do the homework, read the article to reassess in its entirety before you dismiss it as stupid. As it is, it looks like you were far too lazy to pick out the salient points.

duong
03-12-2012, 05:11 PM
Then you probably don't know how to read because it indicates that the origin of the Han Race (The term was later picked up by revolutionary Sun Yatsen who used it to refer to a Han race that excluded the ruling Manchus who made up the Qing Dynasty, the last dynasty of China) and goes further to explain that the Han Race is the predominant race in China (With China's new prominence in global affairs, the Han race, which constitutes 90 percent of the Chinese population, is suddenly the most dominant cohesive ethnic group in the world )

I know China but I've never heard talking of Han as a "race" but as an "ethnic group" (95% of the Chinese).

Besides, the Huis or Manzus for instance are also perfectly Chinese :shrug:

If some Chinese authors wanted to relink that to the notions of races in western countries, it doesn't change the idea that usually in western countries people rather talk about an "Eastern-Asian race" and not a "Chinese" race.

I mean for Western people Japanese and Chinese are the same "race". Now the distinction inside the Chinese are something more subtle.

Dougie
03-12-2012, 05:12 PM
While "chinese" itself is not an insulting word any more than british, italian, spanish or whatever, it becomes insulting when it is used as Llodra did. SInce Llodra´s obvious intention was to mock the fan, and he chose to use the word "chinese" to do that, it indicates that clearly he thinks there is something negative about chinese. That´s when it becomes insulting. It´s not the word itself, it´s how you use it.

Nole fan
03-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Well she was Korean, not Chinese. Apparently he also added the C you next Tuesday word to it, as if f****n wasn't enough.

It operates on the extremely racist assumption that every single person of Asian origin is the same irrespective of country of origin and culture. For instance, it's like me saying that every Caucasian person I see is American, simply on the basis of their Caucasian appearance and no other markers. Or me saying that French, German and Czech people are exactly the same when clearly, they are not. It's reductive, it's disrespectful and it makes Llodra look stupid.

What you say is true but it's not racism. People constantly mistake bad behaviour and ignorance for racism. They are not the same thing. Telling a fan 'you fucking chinese' is the same than saying 'you fucking french'. Where is the racism in that? and why people always equal xenophobia with racism? Racism is hatred directed at a race and xenophobia is hatred directed at all foreigners. A lot of people are xenophobic but not racist.

Johnny Groove
03-12-2012, 05:16 PM
What you say is true but it's not racism. People constantly mistake bad behaviour and ignorance for racism. They are not the same thing. Telling a fan 'you fucking chinese' is the same than saying 'you fucking french'. Where is the racism in that? and why people always equal xenophobia with racism? Racism is hatred directed at a race and xenophobia is hatred directed at all foreigners. A lot of people are xenophobic but not racist.

So is xenophobia acceptable?

Is Llodra's fine ok? Should it be more?

Lee
03-12-2012, 05:16 PM
I'll stop here : too many taboos, prejudice, proprieties in all that :shrug:

I know what racist is, my government uses racist prejudice and racist reasonings to expel people who live happily in France, and it does much more harm than any word like "fucking ..." pronounced for whatever reason.

But it's like that : very often people prefer looking at unreal problems they can see than at real ones they can't see.

The problem I see here is in your effort to defend what is constituted as racist, you inadvertently made it look like Llodra did nothing wrong.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 05:17 PM
What you say is true but it's not racism. People constantly mistake bad behaviour and ignorance for racism. They are not the same thing. Telling a fan 'you fucking chinese' is the same than saying 'you fucking french'. Where is the racism in that? and why people always equal xenophobia with racism? Racism is hatred directed at a race and xenophobia is hatred directed at all foreigners. A lot of people are xenophobic but not racist.

Xenophobia, while not being as dangerous as racism, still should be punishable. And quite strictly.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 05:19 PM
The problem I see here is in your effort to defend what is constituted as racist, you inadvertently made it look like Llodra did nothing wrong.

I think he's experiencing tunnel vision in this thread. Losing his thoughts in analyzing semantics instead of just interpreting the behaviour better.

And unfortunately, by reading his posts back in this thread makes it seem like he is defending Llodra's actions somehow.
Which he's not, duong is a good poster.

Lee
03-12-2012, 05:22 PM
I think he's experiencing tunnel vision in this thread. Losing his thoughts in analyzing semantics instead of just interpreting the behaviour better.

And unfortunately, by reading his posts back in this thread makes it seem like he is defending Llodra's actions somehow.
Which he's not, duong is a good poster.

I agree.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 05:23 PM
I know China but I've never heard talking of Han as a "race" but as an "ethnic group" (95% of the Chinese).

Besides, the Huis for instance are also perfectly Chinese :shrug:

Race as a concept was debunked and removed from terminology in the 80s and 90s and was replaced with "ethnic groups". I could go on with the ideological justification for this all day but that would just detract from the point of this thread which is Mika Llodra is a prejudiced jerk who is a disgrace to the ATP.

LisaKoh
03-12-2012, 05:30 PM
What you say is true but it's not racism. People constantly mistake bad behaviour and ignorance for racism. They are not the same thing. Telling a fan 'you fucking chinese' is the same than saying 'you fucking french'. Where is the racism in that? and why people always equal xenophobia with racism? Racism is hatred directed at a race and xenophobia is hatred directed at all foreigners. A lot of people are xenophobic but not racist.

Xenophobia and Racism are actually very highly correlated, to the point that one could almost say that they are the same thing. Lots of tests have been conducted that show that xenophobes ARE racist.

duong
03-12-2012, 05:32 PM
I think he's experiencing tunnel vision in this thread. Losing his thoughts in analyzing semantics instead of just interpreting the behaviour better.

YOU're all in semantics, and in words only, and you're narrow-minded.

I've seen what you told me in the "user cp" : always the same, you think having "convoluted thoughts" makes people confused and one should just put a "taboo banner" to prevent racist thoughts.

I don't have the same opinion at all : I think taboo banners help bad thoughts to live and your opinion is wrong.

Anyway I didn't want to fight racism in this thread (and I clearly said that Llodra was stupid, low IQ ... exactly what Lisakoh said in his/her first post actually before deriving to the notions of "races"), I just wanted to understand why some people had the principle that such words were "constituted as racist" as Lee said in his/her last post.

Only Mr Eleganza gave me proper answers and I thank him for that :worship: (although it's still hard for me to understand that "is obvious" this idea about the association adjective+gender/race : when I speak about a "small dog", I never thought that all dogs were small, the adjective is there to add a precision about the second word, the way that sounds "obvious" to some of you that he qualifies the whole Chinese community by that insult and not only that woman, still sounds to me as mostly a highly culturally correlated prejudice)

You just preferred not thinking about these "convoluted things" at all and hiding back into your ostrich hole.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 05:37 PM
So you promote racism. Cool.

simplet
03-12-2012, 05:39 PM
Hum I'm not going anywhere near this race discussion, but I'll just say that you'd have to reach pretty far to construct the french comment as a racial slur. Even "Foutu..." is pretty far from being equivalent to saying "fucking..."; it might have been closer let's say 40 years ago, but right now as far as profanities go, it's really kind of tame. Maybe that's why there seems to be some misunderstanding between french and anglo posters.

That being said, it's still really really rude and ignorant.

edit : Here is what people think he said : "You f*ucking chinese c**t!!". Here is what he actually said if what someone posted in this thread is true : "Fuck! Darned chinese pussy!" It sounds weird in english but it also sounds weird in french, so eh.

duong
03-12-2012, 05:50 PM
So you promote racism. Cool.

We have a different attitude.

You want to define a list of what is a racist word and what is not and just tell people "STOP ALERT you're using a word which is constituted as racist" :

do you think you can fight people's thoughts with that ?

I think it may be useful but you must take care it doesn't look too stupid because if it does, you make the opposite of what you were looking for ... like people in China who learnt books from Mao but didn't believe any word of these.

In France, when the racist party Front National emerged, some people just put this "racist" banner in front of them, by principle without discussing what they said at all : conclusion these people who did that, who used to represent the opinion of the majority, have been laughed at as "leftist right-thinking" and that party got 20% votes in 2002 and caused a catastrophe in the election.

And even much worse now the biggest rightist party, who leads the government still for a few months, has taken the most part of their ideas ... and most importantly has led them to some real policy, with policies which are opposed to human rights (but which noone knows about because in the media people keep on speaking more about "words debates " than about their real policy)

shuhrat
03-12-2012, 05:52 PM
Hum I'm not going anywhere near this race discussion, but I'll just say that you'd have to reach pretty far to construct the french comment as a racial slur. Even "Foutu..." is pretty far from being equivalent to saying "fucking..."; it might have been closer let's say 40 years ago, but right now as far as profanities go, it's really kind of tame. Maybe that's why there seems to be some misunderstanding between french and anglo posters.

That being said, it's still really really rude and ignorant.

edit : Here is what people think he said : "You f*ucking chinese c**t!!". Here is what he actually said if what someone posted in this thread is true : "Fuck! Darned chinese pussy!" It sounds weird in english but it also sounds weird in french, eh.
http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2012/03/michael-llodras-walk-of-shame.html
I'm hearing that lefty -- who screamed "FUCKING CHINESE" at an Asian fan during his first-round match because he didn't like that the woman was cheering for his opponent -- has been fined $2,500 by the ATP for his racist outburst. French-speaking fans have since confirmed that Llodra also called her a "fucking Chinese ****" in his native tongue.

simplet
03-12-2012, 05:57 PM
http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2012/03/michael-llodras-walk-of-shame.html

Well yes, I've seen that. But someone else in the thread posted what Llodra apparently said in french and if it's true you really can't translate it like that. But we're not exactly sure what he said in French.

Now I'm going to run far far away from this thread though because I can already feel I'm going to get dragged into this.

Geo
03-12-2012, 06:09 PM
WOW. Llodra is just a pathetic person. How can he have any fans? This isn't the first incident in which he's made questionable remarks. :o

shuhrat
03-12-2012, 06:18 PM
Well yes, I've seen that. But someone else in the thread posted what Llodra apparently said in french and if it's true you really can't translate it like that. But we're not exactly sure what he said in French.

Now I'm going to run far far away from this thread though because I can already feel I'm going to get dragged into this.I actually get your point that it may not be the best translation, but from what he said in English, I think the meaning gets clearer.

Anyway, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. It could be an 'in the heat of the moment' thing, as it was a tight match. Maybe the lady was extremely loud (in that case, the reporter or other fans who were in the stands would've addressed it already though), etc. Then the way he handled the situations (http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16821&zoneid=25) afterwards makes it very hard for me to remain lenient.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 06:23 PM
We have a different attitude.

You want to define a list of what is a racist word and what is not and just tell people "STOP ALERT you're using a word which is constituted as racist" :

do you think you can fight people's thoughts with that ?

I think it may be useful but you must take care it doesn't look too stupid because if it does, you make the opposite of what you were looking for ... like people in China who learnt books from Mao but didn't believe any word of these.

In France, when the racist party Front National emerged, some people just put this "racist" banner in front of them, by principle without discussing what they said at all : conclusion these people who did that, who used to represent the opinion of the majority, have been laughed at as "leftist right-thinking" and that party got 20% votes in 2002 and caused a catastrophe in the election.

And even much worse now the biggest rightist party, who leads the government still for a few months, has taken the most part of their ideas ... and most importantly has led them to some real policy, with policies which are opposed to human rights (but which noone knows about because in the media people keep on speaking more about "words debates " than about their real policy)

Yes, I am aware of the misjudgements that could be had with uber strict rules against racist comments. But if you think that somehow justifies or alleviates Llodra's behavior, you are wrong. He has done it before, and this episode confirms it. He's a racist.

No one is accusing him because he hit his shoes made in Korea with his racket, or something like that. All facts are pretty straight forward here.

If you want to have a discussion about racism in general, I'm not your guy.

Nole fan
03-12-2012, 06:25 PM
So is xenophobia acceptable?

Is Llodra's fine ok? Should it be more?

I'm just pointing out an obvious mistake people do. I'm not judging which one is worst.

duong
03-12-2012, 06:29 PM
if you think that somehow justifies or alleviates Llodra's behavior, you are wrong.

Post 10 :

I don't think he's racist, but he's very rude for sure.

It's not at all the first time he's insulted persons of the public, in Marseilles he recently shouted "shut up" ("ta gueule" in French, it may be more rude in French) to someone in the audience.

Post 38 :

That's it : that's typical Llodra : low IQ, childish, rude, arrogant, irritative sometimes (typical French average will you say ? yes but other French players are not like that ;) ). Racist I don't know.

A few weeks ago he said in French media that Marco Chiudinelli was a bad and disreputable character and he badly wanted to beat him seemingly only because Chiudinelli had once taken his favorite locker during Roland-Garros.

Llodra is also used to being very rude with ballkids just like Arnaud Clément.

He has done it before, and this episode confirms it. He's a racist.

You have said it several times : do you have any information that we don't have and could you please share it with us ?

I'm sorry but I'm not so well informed : I'm mostly a fan on the internet.


If you want to have a discussion about racism in general, I'm not your guy.

Your badrep sounded like a very general appreciation from you and even "lesson" to me about racism and that's why I said what I said :

The only one with problems here is a guy that tries to find perfectionism in judgement over a serious matter. Good luck, don't let it surprise you when your behavior creates a path to reiterate the awful human offense that hasn't been eradicated yet.

Other "lessons" you gave me :

It's pretty easy with racism, you're either racist, or you're not. People don't just tickle with the boundaries between racist slurs and cursing just for the fun of it.


I'll concisely put it at this: tolerance for racist slurs/comments/apropos = ZERO. That's how it should be, anywhere, for anyone, for any race.

So you promote racism. Cool.

david_williams
03-12-2012, 06:30 PM
Severely and awfully rude, racist maybe, he'll get so much boo when he comes to Shanghai/Beijing. End of story.

Li Ching Yuen
03-12-2012, 06:41 PM
@duong:
So again, you're saying that based on the "evidence" so far, Llodra has not made any racist comments.

I can't begin to think what would qualify as racist to you. In fact, I don't want to know. Don't reply. You've said enough.

duong
03-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Hum I'm not going anywhere near this race discussion, but I'll just say that you'd have to reach pretty far to construct the french comment as a racial slur.

I've understood it like this : any time you say

an injurious adjective + a gender/race,

it's a sexist/racist slur.

When you say "stupid woman" to somebody, you're sexist because according to the principles/prejudice from people here, you qualify the whole women by saying that.

If you say "Stupid Chinese" to somebody, it's the same : you don't qualify just one person by saying that, you insult a whole community,

that's obviously pure racism for the people here,

and any person who discusses that is a person who promotes racism.

Better knowing it even if it's hard to understand (for me at least but well maybe I'm racist without knowing it if I don't understand it :shrug: )

More display of the "evidence" of these people in the comments after the article here :

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/ticker.aspx?articleid=16821&zoneid=6

tangerine_dream
03-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Fucking French.

latso
03-12-2012, 08:32 PM
It's stupid to insult ppl.

But this is not exactly racist.

If you yell at a caucasian - you f*ing retard - are you a sick ppl with retardation hater?


I'm sure Llodra doesn't rate ppl's intelligence or abilities according to their race, he is just a mug who insults ppl and when you insult some1 you try to hurt him verbally, that's all.

sicko
03-12-2012, 08:40 PM
If you yell at a caucasian - you f*ing retard - are you a sick ppl with retardation hater?


utterly pointless scenario...:confused:

it should be: if you yell at a retarded person: "you fucking retard"

are you a sick person then?

answer is obviously YES.

latso
03-12-2012, 09:23 PM
utterly pointless scenario...:confused:

it should be: if you yell at a retarded person: "you fucking retard"

are you a sick person then?

answer is obviously YES.
well, i hope i didn't hurt you, i used it just as an example...:hug:


And again especially for you - He calls her Chinese (which she isn't). He calls him retarded (which he isn't medically proven to be).

Both have no disrespect toward Chinese, retarded ppl or retarded Chinese ppl.

They have disrespect to the person they're yelling at.

I can explain it again if needed.

Raiden
03-12-2012, 09:36 PM
So is xenophobia acceptable?

Is Llodra's fine ok? Should it be more?Xenophobia? Oh puhlease! Cut the hyperbolic crap. There's no basis to say that.

Llodra didnt' say anything racist (racists do not know nothing about souk) it just appears that Llodra is trying to talk to the ethnic officials the same rude way he jokes with his North African origin buddies. It's like soembody telling Llodra that he shouldn't act as if he had too much cheese and wine session.

sicko
03-12-2012, 09:37 PM
well, i hope i didn't hurt you, i used it just as an example...:hug:


And again especially for you - He calls her Chinese (which she isn't). He calls him retarded (which he isn't medically proven to be).

Both have no disrespect toward Chinese, retarded ppl or retarded Chinese ppl.

They have disrespect to the person they're yelling at.

I can explain it again if needed.

how in hell is her being chinese or korean of any relevance? llodra thought she was chinese, doesn't matter if she really is or not.

you only call a person retard if you think she or he is NOT really retarded, right?
but llodra called her fucking (or whatever) chinese because he EXACTLY thought she was chinese...

your comparison doesn't make sense, don't u see it?

gulzhan
03-12-2012, 09:47 PM
Fucking French.

I'd say-- fucking French dick? But that would be too flattering for Llodra ;)

My 2 cents-- no matter how you translate the words, they are the words of a racist. He looks at a person and the first thing he sees is her race (the second thing he sees is her gender :lol:) Classical racism. Whoever tries to defend Llodra is a hypocrite.

Pirata.
03-12-2012, 11:08 PM
I guess Llodra did try extra hard on the idiot part :p

Source???

"Tolerance for racist slurs" ?

that's an insult to me, MUCH MUCH WORSE than any word.

Yeah, being called a racist is SO much worse than racism itself :rolleyes:

My 2 cents-- no matter how you translate the words, they are the words of a racist. He looks at a person and the first thing he sees is her race (the second thing he sees is her gender :lol:) Classical racism. Whoever tries to defend Llodra is a hypocrite.

:yeah:

MIMIC
03-12-2012, 11:21 PM
Well she was Korean, not Chinese. Apparently he also added the C you next Tuesday word to it, as if f****n wasn't enough.

Never heard it described like that :lol: :yeah:

duong
03-12-2012, 11:25 PM
Classical racism. Whoever tries to defend Llodra is a hypocrite.

Thank you Gulzhan : not the first time we have exact opposite feelings, and you consider me in such a bad way :worship:

Calling somebody a hypocrite, that is unsincere, is a very convenient way to escape different opinions, but whether you like it or not we do have different sincere opinions

PS : Llodra is rude, vulgar and stupid, and maybe he's racist, I don't know, I have no evidence at all so far except that he seems to be a racist according to some codes which seem to be frequent in North America at least, and I'm a promoter of racism according to the same codes.

cardio
03-13-2012, 12:08 AM
C´mon guys, you blow this way out of proportion. Tennis is emotional game and players say things during match they would never say on dinner party. Plus, spectators can be sometimes very abusive and annoying as hell, especially when they had few beers before match.We dont really know what happened there and how it started.

It is hard to imagine more calm and even shy person on tennis court than Ivo Karlovic. But even he admits in twitter that sometimes insults and mocking from spectators drive him so crazy , he has strong wish to punch offender in the face.

Shit happens, conflicts do occur .

Lee
03-13-2012, 12:21 AM
C´mon guys, you blow this way out of proportion. Tennis is emotional game and players say things during match they would never say on dinner party. Plus, spectators can be sometimes very abusive and annoying as hell, especially when they had few beers before match.We dont really know what happened there and how it started.

It is hard to imagine more calm and even shy person on tennis court than Ivo Karlovic. But even he admits in twitter that sometimes insults and mocking from spectators drive him so crazy , he has strong wish to punch offender in the face.

Shit happens, conflicts do occur .

Llodra's response is still wrong NO MATTER WHAT. Check the video here, the guy was harassing Troicki there so he requested security to remove him. Not throwing the insult back or start a war of words. That is what a PROFESSIONAL tennis player did.

EDJOgQ19dJU

Pirata.
03-13-2012, 12:22 AM
Yeah, let's excuse racism because a player was emotional :rolleyes:

cutesteve22
03-13-2012, 12:32 AM
Llodra is a pathetic mug on court and totally jerk off court.

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 03:51 AM
Thank you Gulzhan : not the first time we have exact opposite feelings, and you consider me in such a bad way :worship:

Calling somebody a hypocrite, that is unsincere, is a very convenient way to escape different opinions, but whether you like it or not we do have different sincere opinions

PS : Llodra is rude, vulgar and stupid, and maybe he's racist, I don't know, I have no evidence at all so far except that he seems to be a racist according to some codes which seem to be frequent in North America at least, and I'm a promoter of racism according to the same codes.

These "codes" you talk so disparagingly about came about because of the Civil Rights Movement and the North American tendency to discourage discrimination of any kind. If you would look into the history and rationale behind why people shouldn't be throwing around discriminatory remarks of any nature, you'd understand why it is a sensitive and immensely important issue and not something to be dismissed as a cultural idiosyncrasy.

Llodra, whether he knew it or not, was operating on a stereotype aka " an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge".
In his mind, a person who had Oriental features was deemed Chinese and he made that snap judgment without further knowledge.

Also, I'm not sure I like this argument where people are saying that he's just an idiot instead of a racist. Those two terms are not mutually exclusive and in my experience I've found that most racists are severely lacking in the IQ department.

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 04:01 AM
PS : Llodra is rude, vulgar and stupid, and maybe he's racist, I don't know, I have no evidence at all so far except that he seems to be a racist according to some codes which seem to be frequent in North America at least, and I'm a promoter of racism according to the same codes.

north americans in general are more sensitive to racial matters than europeans are (not counting the brits on this one) so i can understand your perspective. i actually think you'e a good poster for the most part.

however, llodra's comments are for one thing racially motivated (this much is obvious) and i'm pretty inclined to think he's in fact a racist.

as a general rule, insults based on race should be dropped asap, esp. if they come from whites towards non-whites. it's just not cool, it makes you look like a total racist or at the very least a complete asshole.

that said, it's dissapointing to know this from mika. i don't think i'll ever root again for him. quite the opposite actually. also the ATP should take stronger actions in these matters. a hefty fine and at the very least a 2 month suspension should be in place, esp. considering llodra's past behaviour and excuses.

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 04:11 AM
Frankly speaking, my wife is Chinese, I go to China every year but I'm fed-up with racism being called for every fucking word

not sure what you'd think if the likes of llodra start calling your asian looking kids "fucking chinese" merely because they have asian-like facial features

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 04:14 AM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

:worship: most stupid question in the whole thread

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 04:20 AM
While "chinese" itself is not an insulting word any more than british, italian, spanish or whatever, it becomes insulting when it is used as Llodra did. SInce Llodra´s obvious intention was to mock the fan, and he chose to use the word "chinese" to do that, it indicates that clearly he thinks there is something negative about chinese. That´s when it becomes insulting. It´s not the word itself, it´s how you use it.

this.

i'd even say the preceding epiteth 'fucking' is of a secondary order compared to the racial way he chose to attack a person.

tripwires
03-13-2012, 04:29 AM
Um...since when is Chinese a race exactly?

:haha: :haha: :haha:

I know China but I've never heard talking of Han as a "race" but as an "ethnic group" (95% of the Chinese).

Besides, the Huis or Manzus for instance are also perfectly Chinese :shrug:

If some Chinese authors wanted to relink that to the notions of races in western countries, it doesn't change the idea that usually in western countries people rather talk about an "Eastern-Asian race" and not a "Chinese" race.

I mean for Western people Japanese and Chinese are the same "race". Now the distinction inside the Chinese are something more subtle.

The distinction between race and ethnicity seems like a technical one and it muddles what's really a simple issue. Just because the root word of "racism" is "race", doesn't mean that his alleged outcry of "fucking Chinese" cannot be interpreted as racist.

rocketassist
03-13-2012, 04:32 AM
Yeah, let's excuse racism because a player was emotional :rolleyes:

Should the Ultra Sur be excused then whenever they shout 'OOO OOO OOO' at opposition black players?

leng jai
03-13-2012, 04:33 AM
At least he didn't call the fan Jacki Chan or Bruce Lee.

Ajde.

gulzhan
03-13-2012, 04:42 AM
Thank you Gulzhan : not the first time we have exact opposite feelings, and you consider me in such a bad way :worship:

Calling somebody a hypocrite, that is unsincere, is a very convenient way to escape different opinions, but whether you like it or not we do have different sincere opinions


You are welcome! I was a bit unclear though-- what I meant was-- whoever tries to argue here that Llodra used those words not because of his racism but because of his bad character.... is a hypocrite. I guess that includes you ;)

I don't understand all the heat here, guys. Why some of the posters really want to prove that Llodra is NOT a racist? Don't you know they exist? Don't you know that many people do believe and feel that they are superior just because of the skin color and face features? The fact that they don't open their mouths every time they have those feelings don't mean they are not existent.

That is why the real issue is-- was it right to set such a small fine? What message ATP wanted to send to the players and to the fans?

Kat_YYZ
03-13-2012, 06:19 AM
There are people who think if they are close with people from other races/religions/backgrounds, they cannot be racist. They would sleep with them, hire them to babysit their kids, even welcome them into the family. But at the same time they don't think there's anything wrong with jokes based on stereotypes, etc. They think a racist is someone who would kill other people, wear gloves if forced to shake those people's hands or not want to use the same bathroom as them, etc.

But the casual repetition and normalization of such jokes and stereotypes is what leads to those unstable people who burn crosses and so forth.

And ultimately, Llodra needs to conduct himself properly on the court towards the spectators. That is the contract he made with the ATP/ITF when he agreed to play in their tournaments and take their money. Don't like it? Get out. Start your own league.

duong
03-13-2012, 08:51 AM
not sure what you'd think if the likes of llodra start calling your asian looking kids "fucking chinese" merely because they have asian-like facial features

THIS IS UTTERLY STUPID : My wife whom I love 10 thousands more than I do have any care for your prejudice, is Chinese, if she's called Chinese, it's nothing bad !!

I have many Asian friends : if they're called Chinese, it's nothing bad either, because being Chinese is nothing bad, and many people have difficulties to differentiate between features of a Chinese and an other nationality (which is indeed sometimes hard, some Japanese thought my wife was Japanese).

That said, I've learnt on that website that I'm a racist because I can't say that it's wrong that when I see someone, I first see one's race and one's gender, which qualifies a racist and a sexist through Gulzhan's opinion and it seems, many people's opinion here.

It's not nice to learn about it from people who don't know one inch of me, and who surely do far less to defend foreign people in their own country than I do against really racist actings from a government.

Racist meaning for me having bad actings or prejudice directed towards A COMMUNITY, not just about one person from this community or just using a "race" or nationality word.

That said, I won't post anymore on that fucking forum because your opinions, I don't care !!

bokehlicious
03-13-2012, 09:09 AM
Llodra has always been an asshole. And assholes tend to be racist.

ossie
03-13-2012, 09:23 AM
Llodra is a pathetic mug on court and totally jerk off court.excellent observation

tripwires
03-13-2012, 09:31 AM
THIS IS UTTERLY STUPID : My wife is Chinese, if she's called Chinese, it's nothing bad !!

I have many Asian friends : if they're called Chinese, it's nothing bad either, because being Chinese is nothing bad, and many people have difficulties to differentiate between features of a Chinese and an other nationality (which is indeed sometimes hard, some Japanese thought my wife was Japanese).


I think you missed the point. Obviously there's nothing wrong with calling a Chinese person Chinese; however in this case the alleged phrase was "fucking Chinese", which is offensive because of the word that precedes "Chinese". I'm not one to play the racism card unthinkingly, but if I were called "fucking Chinese" to my face, I would be pretty offended.

Raiden
03-13-2012, 10:55 AM
^ "Offensive" doesn't equal "racist".

Obviously Llodra was being rude and impolite. However it didn't amount to racism cuz racism is a whole another catagory (except to the weeny PC brigade who have this ridiculously broad definition: the mere mention of race equals racism.

That, of course, is nothing but sanctimonious bullshit.

tripwires
03-13-2012, 11:15 AM
Yeah but why would I be offended if I didn't think it was a slight on my race? It would be different if the insult were "fucking idiot". I would be offended in a different way - I would interpret it as a slight on my intelligence, as opposed to my race in the former scenario.

I think Llodra's alleged remark can be interpreted in a racist manner. I don't know, or care, really, if that makes him racist.

Raiden
03-13-2012, 11:18 AM
Oh and by the way we can only judge Llodra based on his "souk" comment to the Moroccans cuz it is STILL NOT VERIFIED that Llodra ever said anything regarding the Chinese... so until then it's just a comment by a (racist?) slanderer trolling on twitter.

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Tom Tebbutt is not a slanderer. He's a well-respected journalist who's been to more Slams than Llodra: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/tom-tebbutt/

I'm pretty sure he knows (like anybody else who went to J-school) all about slander and libel.

Topspindoctor
03-13-2012, 11:28 AM
Llodra has always been an asshole. And assholes tend to be racist.

You never made any racist comments as far as I can remember.

out_grinder
03-13-2012, 11:30 AM
can't believe some people are claiming they'll stop supporting llodra just because of some ultra-mild PG-rating outburst that really cannot be considered racist whichever way you interpret it. How pathetic.

Raiden
03-13-2012, 11:32 AM
Tom Tebbutt is not a slanderer. He's a well-respected journalist who's been to more Slams than Llodra: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/tom-tebbutt/

I'm pretty sure he knows (like anybody else who went to J-school) all about slander and libel.BS

Journalists are human. And as all humans they too have flaws.

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 11:35 AM
It's been verified which is why the ATP fined him in the first place: http://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/french-tennis-player-michael-llodra-hit-with-fine-for-racial-slur-aimed-at-chinese-fan-of-opponent/story-e6frf4mu-1226297751675

Some journos lie but Tebbutt is not from the National Enquirer, he's from the Globe and Mail and he's very well-respected. If Llodra didn't say anything, why did he get fined?

Raiden
03-13-2012, 11:40 AM
It's been verified which is why the ATP fined him in the first place: http://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/french-tennis-player-michael-llodra-hit-with-fine-for-racial-slur-aimed-at-chinese-fan-of-opponent/story-e6frf4mu-1226297751675

Some journos lie but Tebbutt is not from the National Enquirer, he's from the Globe and Mail and he's very well-respected. If Llodra didn't say anything, why did he get fined?Ignore the headline title and look at the content of the article instead (he was verbally abusive all thru-out the match, towards the crowd, ballboys and their coordinator during the match).

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 11:44 AM
Wow. That's some pretty severe cognitive dissonance you have going on there, I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, trolling or daft. I'm pretty sure that everybody present could have verified Tebbutt's statement or not. The fact that the press is running it means that there was confirmation from other people there, officials included.

Agrajag
03-13-2012, 11:51 AM
north americans in general are more sensitive to racial matters than europeans are (not counting the brits on this one) so i can understand your perspective. i actually think you'e a good poster for the most part.

however, llodra's comments are for one thing racially motivated (this much is obvious) and i'm pretty inclined to think he's in fact a racist.

as a general rule, insults based on race should be dropped asap, esp. if they come from whites towards non-whites. it's just not cool, it makes you look like a total racist or at the very least a complete asshole.

that said, it's dissapointing to know this from mika. i don't think i'll ever root again for him. quite the opposite actually. also the ATP should take stronger actions in these matters. a hefty fine and at the very least a 2 month suspension should be in place, esp. considering llodra's past behaviour and excuses.

So it's worse when it comes from white people?

Racist statement.

rickcastle
03-13-2012, 12:13 PM
So it's worse when it comes from white people?

Racist statement.

Of course it is, are you not aware of white privilege? White people have been at the top of the pyramid for so long, their words hurt and is perpetuating a continuous systematic abuse established from previous times when they held black people as their property. White people are in the position to racially oppress and abuse, non-whites are not. Non-white people can call white people "crackers" or other derogatory terms but what are these coming from non-whites? Just words, there is no power behind them, it doesn't make the non-whites better, it does not exert any power or oppression over the whites. But if a white person calls a non-white a derogatory term, it exacerbates and perpetuates the power to oppress that they have always held over non-whites.

To simplify: of course it's worse coming from a white person who society has given the power to oppress. And no, that's not racist.

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 12:14 PM
Totally Off-Topic rickcastle but is your avi from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? I love that show.

rickcastle
03-13-2012, 12:16 PM
Totally Off-Topic rickcastle but is your avi from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? I love that show.

Yes it is! It is the funniest show on television, along with Archer :lol:

habibko
03-13-2012, 01:10 PM
since when is Chinese a race or a racist derogatory name? how is it any different than saying fucking American or fucking Saudi? :confused:

Of course it is, are you not aware of white privilege? White people have been at the top of the pyramid for so long, their words hurt and is perpetuating a continuous systematic abuse established from previous times when they held black people as their property. White people are in the position to racially oppress and abuse, non-whites are not. Non-white people can call white people "crackers" or other derogatory terms but what are these coming from non-whites? Just words, there is no power behind them, it doesn't make the non-whites better, it does not exert any power or oppression over the whites. But if a white person calls a non-white a derogatory term, it exacerbates and perpetuates the power to oppress that they have always held over non-whites.

it's about time other races stopped being oversensitive and demanding more strictness from whites as opposed to themselves, if you say the non-whites words don't have much behind them, then also these words won't make the whites better and don't have any power behind them these days

To simplify: of course it's worse coming from a white person who society has given the power to oppress. And no, that's not racist.

how did a society consisting of different races decide to give power to whites rather than blacks? it's not as simple as you are putting here

I read an insightful quote once that can be roughly translated as: "if women and men were inherently equal, men would have never dominated women and women would have never been the subordinate of men to this extent across all societies, rather the dominance - or lack thereof - would have been balanced out. However men dominated women because they could and women can't prevent that without men's willing waiver and concession", the same can be said about whites and non-whites, harsh but true

(note: before you jump at me accusing me of racism, I'm not technically white)

shuhrat
03-13-2012, 02:12 PM
BS

Journalists are human. And as all humans they too have flaws.
http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16821&zoneid=25
L’Equipe will report on Tuesday that Llodra said he thought the fine was too high and that what he said should not have been considered worse than swearing.

Llodra allegedly said he would call the Lees by 2 PM on Sunday, but Daniel Lee told TENNIS.com that they had not been contacted by 8 PM.
So if Tebbutt was a liar, why didn't he deny it? :lol:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Tennis/Actualites/Llodra-double-peine/269617
(Google Translate) ... "Michael Llodra has apologized to a Chinese journalist and was justified by saying that" it had said in the heat of battle ."

duong
03-13-2012, 02:15 PM
I think you missed the point. Obviously there's nothing wrong with calling a Chinese person Chinese; however in this case the alleged phrase was "fucking Chinese", which is offensive because of the word that precedes "Chinese". I'm not one to play the racism card unthinkingly, but if I were called "fucking Chinese" to my face, I would be pretty offended.

To confirm you that I'm a racist, you know my first impression when I first saw your avatar ? you're an Asian man.

Thanks to Gulzhan (my first impression was that she was an Asian woman), I now know from that that it means that I'm clearly racist and sexist.

That's a strange revealing for me, since I had never thought of that before.

I suddenly feel strange, as a racist man married with a Chinese woman and with many Asian friends. I'm wondering about all that, there's something I missed in all that :confused:

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Ok, how about this: nobody on this thread is racist, we just have different ideas of what constitutes racism. Does that sound fair?

Also, Llodra deserved his fine and he is racist. The end.

I really want to cut this off at the pass before Godwin's Rule comes into effect and then things get really ugly.

shuhrat
03-13-2012, 02:50 PM
@duong: "Did he admit that he had said a racist slur? only in your obtuse mind"

He admitted the fact that he used those words, didn't he? He just refused to agree about how it should be interpreted. Did I call him a racist? No, because I'm not so sure and not familiar with this subject either. What makes me disgusted more than the words do is the following behavior from him.

I don't think you're a racist, btw. Calm down.

FedererBulgaria
03-13-2012, 02:55 PM
can't believe some people are claiming they'll stop supporting llodra just because of some ultra-mild PG-rating outburst that really cannot be considered racist whichever way you interpret it. How pathetic.

I will START supporting him after that...some fans are so annoying at the court:mad: and saying b*tch is not all they deserve...its much more

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Is it wrong to laugh at this thread :confused:. Not that I'm a racist or anything...this whole controversy is hilarious.

duong
03-13-2012, 03:50 PM
Ok, how about this: nobody on this thread is racist, we just have different ideas of what constitutes racism. Does that sound fair?

it's an escape, it's nothing fair.

Everybody is responsible for what they said.

Yes, there are different ideas in this thread of what constitutes racism, but no, according to some of the most widely frequent of these ideas (even presented as "obvious" by the ones who defend them), there's at least one racist in this thread (me).

I'm a coherent person : I'm racist according to these conceptions and I'm wondering about that because I'm not a liar, I don't lie to myself, I'm sincere. I just have to draw the conclusions.

PS : for shuhrat, FYI, what Llodra is accused of by Tebbuts and others is very clearly defined in the articles : it's a "racial slur", not just a "swearing".

tripwires
03-13-2012, 04:15 PM
To confirm you that I'm a racist, you know my first impression when I first saw your avatar ? you're an Asian man.

Thanks to Gulzhan (my first impression was that she was an Asian woman), I now know from that that it means that I'm clearly racist and sexist.

That's a strange revealing for me, since I had never thought of that before.

I suddenly feel strange, as a racist man married with a Chinese woman and with many Asian friends. I'm wondering about all that, there's something I missed in all that :confused:

Dude you need to calm down. I didn't imply in my post that you're racist. All I pointed out was that Llodra's comment has been viewed as racist because he didn't point to the random fan and say "hey look a Chinese person" (which would NOT have been racist); instead, he said "fucking Chinese". That's where the perceived racial slight comes in. Honestly I have no idea what you're on about anymore. That was all that I wanted to say.

(By the way, my avatar is a picture of leng jai. :drool: I'm a Chinese girl.)

shuhrat
03-13-2012, 04:24 PM
...

PS : for shuhrat, FYI, what Llodra is accused of by Tebbuts and others is very clearly defined in the articles : it's a "racial slur", not just a "swearing".
@tomtebbutt : Sat very first row - dead centre behind the court for Llodra - Gulbis - heard a lot. Deplorable behaviour by Llodra - read next tweet.

ML smacked ball out of court, threw racquet, called Gulbis supporter in crowd a "f--king Chinese." I confirmed later with brother of woman.

This is all he said. Where did he say "racial slur"? The only negative word from him was "Deplorable".

Oh and by the way we can only judge Llodra based on his "souk" comment to the Moroccans cuz it is STILL NOT VERIFIED that Llodra ever said anything regarding the Chinese... so until then it's just a comment by a (racist?) slanderer trolling on twitter.
This was the post I responded to initially.

If it was the case and indeed Tebbutt's tweets are not true, Llodra could have denied the whole thing, not what he meant. Then he wouldn't have needed to apologize to a Chinese journo. He should have appealed to ATP against the decision from the get go, not complained it was too harsh.

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:25 PM
Dude you need to calm down. I didn't imply in my post that you're racist. All I pointed out was that Llodra's comment has been viewed as racist because he didn't point to the random fan and say "hey look a Chinese person" (which would NOT have been racist); instead, he said "fucking Chinese". That's where the perceived racial slight comes in. Honestly I have no idea what you're on about anymore. That was all that I wanted to say.

(By the way, my avatar is a picture of leng jai. :drool: I'm a Chinese girl.)

It's not his actual name is it :lol:.

tripwires
03-13-2012, 04:26 PM
It's not his actual name is it :lol:.

Of course not. :lol: He's a bogan with a bogan name. :angel:

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:28 PM
Of course not. :lol: He's a bogan with a bogan name. :angel:

That's not bogan, that's "Chinese" (Oh No, I said it.....help I swear I'm not racist :scared:).

Anyways, he's not very "leng jai" to me :angel:.

tripwires
03-13-2012, 04:30 PM
That's not bogan, that's "Chinese" (Oh No, I said it.....help I swear I'm not racist :scared:).

Anyways, he's not very "leng jai" to me :angel:.

Oh my GOD you unrepentant racist. :o

:speakles: Obviously there's something wrong with your judgement. :o ;)

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Oh my GOD you unrepentant racist. :o

:speakles: Obviously there's something wrong with your judgement. :o ;)

I would make love with Chinese girls :shrug:.

Lol :o. I'm saying that because the real "leng jai" is Hass :angel:;).

Pirata.
03-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Should the Ultra Sur be excused then whenever they shout 'OOO OOO OOO' at opposition black players?

Are you asking me this because I'm a Madrid fan? I hate the Ultras, they're obnoxious and racist :shrug:

Although the Atletico fans are probably 10x worse, worst set of fans in Spain :o

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:34 PM
Screw racism.... screw chicks instead :shrug: (I'm not quite sure what I meant there :o).

tripwires
03-13-2012, 04:35 PM
I would make love with Chinese girls :shrug:.

Lol :o. I'm saying that because the real "leng jai" is Hass :angel:;).

Just like Llodra. :eek:

Hass is the leng jai head honcho, that much I would concede. :drool:

Dupuis2006
03-13-2012, 04:35 PM
I was there for third set but didn't witness anything

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:38 PM
Just like Llodra. :eek:

Hass is the leng jai head honcho, that much I would concede. :drool:

Some coincidence huh *nudge* *nudge* http://www.tennisforum.com/images/smilies/oh.gif.

Agreed :bowdown:.

duong
03-13-2012, 04:47 PM
Dude you need to calm down. I didn't imply in my post that you're racist. All I pointed out was that Llodra's comment has been viewed as racist because he didn't point to the random fan and say "hey look a Chinese person" (which would NOT have been racist); instead, he said "fucking Chinese". That's where the perceived racial slight comes in. Honestly I have no idea what you're on about anymore. That was all that I wanted to say.

(By the way, my avatar is a picture of leng jai. :drool: I'm a Chinese girl.)

I'm very calm, I'm just coherent. Read Gulzhan's definition of what's "clearly racist" (and sexist) :

My 2 cents-- no matter how you translate the words, they are the words of a racist. He looks at a person and the first thing he sees is her race (the second thing he sees is her gender :lol:) Classical racism. Whoever tries to defend Llodra is a hypocrite.

At first I wondered about what she said, I had doubts, and then when looking at your avatar, I had a flash : no I can't lie, there's no doubt, I'm clearly racist according to that definition !

Why would Llodra have pointed any person in the audience ? you're turning into circles.

Llodra pointed to someone from whom he hadn't liked the noise.

I've perfectly understood what you and many others said :

- Had he said "hey a Chinese !" he would have just been curious.
- Had he said "fucking idiot" he would have been rude and vulgar (precisely what I said)
- as he said "fucking Chinese", it's OBVIOUSLY according to many ones here a racist slur, which means that what he criticized in that person, what he clearly pointed out was that she was Chinese, it's obvious that Llodra is a racist and despises the Chinese, he attacks the whole community, and "anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite" (dixit Gulzhan and Pirata). Read what Abraxas said : there's no problem about the "fucking", the problem is the word "Chinese" :

i'd even say the preceding epiteth 'fucking' is of a secondary order compared to the racial way he chose to attack a person.

That's very simply what I read.

Here's what you said, I didn't invent anything :

Yeah but why would I be offended if I didn't think it was a slight on my race? It would be different if the insult were "fucking idiot". I would be offended in a different way - I would interpret it as a slight on my intelligence, as opposed to my race in the former scenario.

I'm just different. If someone told my wife "fucking Chinese", I would be furious about the "fucking", I wouldn't notice one minute the "Chinese", you can say any word when you're furious unless you have the American code of proprieties in your pocket all the time. The "fucking idiot" would be exactly the same for me (even worse). I wouldn't care any minute if it's racist or not : he insulted my wife, not the whole Chinese community. I wouldn't care at all what he would think of the Chinese community as a whole ... and so would my wife. Maybe he's racist, maybe he's not, why the hell would I care about that ??? That's the way I do feel personally, but I can see that's not the way people feel here.

By the way many Chinese are fucking stupid, and so are many fucking French, and many fucking Americans :devil:

And I'm a fucking racist according to many ones here :devil: but I'm a sincere one : I won't hide behind any kind of denial, I just draw the conclusions.

Pirata.
03-13-2012, 04:48 PM
duong :rolleyes::facepalm:

BroTree123
03-13-2012, 04:49 PM
I'm very calm, I'm just coherent. Read Gulzhan's definition of what's "clearly racist" (and sexist), and I just tell you my reaction to your avatar.

Why would Llodra have pointed any person in the audience ? you're turning in circles.

Llodra pointed to someone from hom he hadn't liked the noise.

I've perfectly understood what you and many others said :

- Had he said "hey a Chinese !" he would have just been curious.
- Had he said "fucking idiot" he would have been rude and vulgar (precisely what I said)
- as he said "fucking Chinese", it's OBVIOUSLY according to many ones here a racist insult, which means that what he criticized in that person was that she was Chinese, it's obvious that Llodra is a racist and despises the Chinese, he attacks the whole community. That's very simply what I read.

I'm just different. If someone told my wife "fucking Chinese", I would be furious about the "fucking", I wouldn't notice one minute the "Chinese", you can say any word when you're furious unless you have the American code of proprieties in your pocket all the time. The "fucking idiot" would be exactly the same for me. I wouldn't care any minute if it's racist or not : he insulted my wife, not the whole Chinese community. I wouldn't care at all what he would think of the Chinese community as a whole ... and so would my wife. Maybe he's racist, maybe he's not, why the hell would I care about that ??? That's the way I do feel personally, but I can see that's not the way people feel here.

By the way many Chinese are fucking stupid, and so are many fucking French, and many fucking Americans :devil:

And I'm a fucking racist according to many ones here :devil:

Two words. F**k you.

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 05:05 PM
since when is Chinese a race or a racist derogatory name? how is it any different than saying fucking American or fucking Saudi? :confused:



it's about time other races stopped being oversensitive and demanding more strictness from whites as opposed to themselves, if you say the non-whites words don't have much behind them, then also these words won't make the whites better and don't have any power behind them these days



how did a society consisting of different races decide to give power to whites rather than blacks? it's not as simple as you are putting here

I read an insightful quote once that can be roughly translated as: "if women and men were inherently equal, men would have never dominated women and women would have never been the subordinate of men to this extent across all societies, rather the dominance - or lack thereof - would have been balanced out. However men dominated women because they could and women can't prevent that without men's willing waiver and concession", the same can be said about whites and non-whites, harsh but true

(note: before you jump at me accusing me of racism, I'm not technically white)

i thought you were a somewhat ok poster until i saw your comments in the hitchens thread.

now this is just awful.

Start da Game
03-13-2012, 05:08 PM
we are all basically africans, indians and mesapotamians who just happened to migrate to different parts of the world over 1000s of years.....it doesn't make any sense to throw around racist remarks, it only shows our ignorance and immaturity.....

llodra is a totally ignorant clown if he yelled "fucking chinese".....

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 05:35 PM
And we are approaching Godwin's Law in 3, 2, 1.... Brace yourselves, people.

Before this thread gets any more inflammatory, can we agree to keep the discussion to Llodra, his actions, his words and what they represent instead of which posters are/aren't racist? Otherwise it's going to get really ugly.

ETA: duong it's clear that you feel very strongly about this issue to the point that you went into an entire semantic/lexical analysis of what makes Llodra's comment offensive. If you don't find take issue with Llodra's comments then it's fine, you are entitled to your opinion and you have explained your position coherently. However, I really don't think it helps for you to label yourself as racist (even in an ironic context) because it could lead this thread to a very dark place and that's not what I think we should strive for. This thread is meant to call attention to and address the misdemeanors of a player, not the venue to air out disagreements over what does or does not constitute racism.

duong
03-13-2012, 06:10 PM
ETA: duong it's clear that you feel very strongly about this issue to the point that you went into an entire semantic/lexical analysis of what makes Llodra's comment offensive.

WTF ???? Who did precisely start a semantic/lexical analysis explaining me that if you say "Chinese" it's not a problem but if you say "fucking+Chinese" it's racist ??

Who even told me that fucking+woman is sexist ???

I had never wondered about such semantical concerns before hearing people's arguments here :confused:

However, I really don't think it helps for you to label yourself as racist (even in an ironic context) because it could lead this thread to a very dark place and that's not what I think we should strive for. This thread is meant to call attention to and address the misdemeanors of a player, not the venue to air out disagreements over what does or does not constitute racism.

This player (whom I don't like by the way) is accused of racism, this thread was in that dark place from the beginning.

And I'm not ironic at all : I'm wondering about my personal options because I'm coherent AND I do have respect for the other people's opinions which are very clearly different from mine : I tried to understand other people's opinions (especially reading the comments after that article : http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/ticker.aspx?articleid=16821&zoneid=6 some ponderate and very assured people had very clear and precise opinions of what is racist and what is not), I questioned myself and I drew conclusions.

I know I'm not a hypocrite, I'm very sincere, then I probably had racist leans without knowing it : well OK better to know it :shrug:

abraxas21
03-13-2012, 06:43 PM
WTF ???? Who did precisely start a semantic/lexical analysis explaining me that if you say "Chinese" it's not a problem but if you say "fucking+Chinese" it's racist ??

Who even told me that fucking+woman is sexist ???

I had never wondered about such semantical concerns before hearing people's arguments here :confused:

if he had just chinese it would have been obviosuly meant in an offensive/derisive manner. the fact that he thought the person's race is a good enough reason to insult such person is awful. adding the adjective "fucking" or (whatever offensive word he chose to used in french) just completes the picture.

Singularity
03-13-2012, 06:44 PM
I don't think "fucking Chinese" is inherently racist, if the word Chinese is used to differentiate someone (i.e make it clear which person you're talking about). When you're angry with someone you can sometimes focus on their particular characteristics: eg. "that fucking redhead" without meaning to infer anything about others who share those characteristics.

That doesn't mean Llodra wasn't being racist, though.

duong
03-13-2012, 07:07 PM
if he had just chinese it would have been obviosuly meant in an offensive/derisive manner. the fact that he thought the person's race is a good enough reason to insult such person is awful. adding the adjective "fucking" or (whatever offensive word he chose to used in french) just completes the picture.

yes that's obvious that he insulted the lady because of being Chinese :shrug:

that's "obvious" : as I read on tennis.com questioning that is either being ignorant or racist.

I think it's more likely that I'm racist than ignorant.

habibko
03-13-2012, 07:42 PM
i thought you were a somewhat ok poster until i saw your comments in the hitchens thread.

now this is just awful.

truth can be awful sometimes

Li Ching Yuen
03-13-2012, 08:38 PM
http://straightsets.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/target-of-llodras-racial-slur-says-a-fine-is-not-enough/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nyt%2Frss%2FSports+%28NYT+%3E +Sports%29&seid=auto&smid=tw-nytimessports

INDIAN WELLS, Calif. — Save for the chilly breeze that often blows through the desert air after sunset, it is hard to imagine a more perfect setting for tennis than mountain-lined Indian Wells, home of the BNP Paribas Open.

The popular non-Grand Slam tournament, which attracts tennis fans from much of the western half of North America, even sells out of general admission grounds passes for certain sessions.

Alex Lee Barlow, a tennis fan from Oakland, Calif., was one of the thousands who made the trip for the first weekend of the tournament. Roaming the grounds with her husband and brother Friday, Barlow found a seat in the third row of the stands by the south baseline on Court 8, to watch a match between Michael Llodra of France and Ernests Gulbis of Latvia.

“It was a great match, it was a beautiful day — the whole crowd was getting into it,” Barlow said of the first-round match, which she entered during the second set. “One of the awesome things about Indian Wells is the closeness to the actual game.”

But Barlow, who was cheering for Gulbis with what she says were innocuous cheers like “Come on, Ernie,” was brought far closer into the game than she wanted. She soon incurred the wrath of Llodra, 31, who had already expressed his frustration by swatting with his racket between points and muttering to ball boys.

Llodra’s first comments in Barlow’s direction came in French. They were reported to include “putain chinoise,” which translates roughly as “Chinese whore.”


“He was looking directly at me,” said Barlow, who is Korean-American. “He didn’t yell it particularly loudly. He was turned toward the baseline, toward us, and he looked right at me and said this comment.”

Llodra directed his anger toward Barlow’s section again moments later, after her cluster of pro-Gulbis fans sighed in disappoinment when Gulbis hit a double fault.

“You’re crying now are you? Well, you should be crying,” Barlow quoted Llodra as saying. Llodra later called Barlow a Chinese, adding a profane adjective for emphasis.

Llodra went on to win the match, 6-3, 5-7, 7-6 (3). He later retired with a knee injury down, 1-4, in his second-round match Sunday against Jo-Wilfried Tsonga.

Barlow said that she initially did not want to make a big deal of the incident, but that her anger about what had happened grew in the hours after the match.

“I’m not going to let it ruin my day,” she said she had thought. “But then as the afternoon wore on, I became more and more angry about it. Something in my head just told me I can’t just pretend like it didn’t happen.”

Barlow was contacted by the tournament director, Steve Simon, who informed her of the fine and the formal reprimand, and told her that Llodra would call her from Simon’s office to give her a personal apology. The call was never made, and Simon told Barlow that attempts to persuade Llodra to apologize had been unsuccessful.

Llodra, who is ranked No. 41, was fined $2,500 for verbal abuse by the A.T.P. The amount of the fine was left to the discretion of the A.T.P. supervisor who had conducted an investigation into the incident.

The $2,500 fine amounts to less than 20 percent of the $12,725 Llodra earned for making the second round of the singles draw. He also earned roughly $3,800 for losing in the first round of the doubles competition.

Though there have been prior incidents of spectators shouting ethnic slurs at tennis players (notably toward Serena Williams in Miami in 2007 and the Romanian Victor Hanescu at Wimbledon in 2010), players turning on fans occurs considerably less frequently.

According to French reporters who interviewed him for L’Equipe, Llodra did not seem to understand why the remarks he made were any worse than any other sort of profanity.

Llodra did not make matters better for himself during an interview with a reporter from the Chinese news Web site SINA.com, in which the Frenchman attempted to apologize for his remarks.

“My words were not aimed at China,” Llodra began.

“I love Chinese — I can totally make love with a Chinese girl,” he added, before being cut off by the A.T.P. official monitoring the interview. The journalist, who took offense at the remark, said that he did not find Llodra’s apology sincere. He added that there had been a great deal of reaction to Llodra’s remarks on Chinese social media networks like Weibo.

Llodra did not speak to any English-language media at the tournament. His next scheduled tournament is the Sony Ericsson Open in Miami, which starts March 21.

“I would like the A.T.P. to come down very hard on him,” Barlow said. “I don’t know what the official term would be, but I would like some severe sanctions put on him.” Barlow suggested that Llodra should be barred from his next three tournaments.

“Just issuing a fine is not going to do it — it’s not going to stop him or anybody else,” she said. “The money doesn’t mean anything to him.”

Though a call from Llodra seems unlikely at this juncture, Barlow is prepared should it happen.

“If he wants to call me up, I’ve got what I’m going to say to him all written out,” she said “Is that going to make a difference to him? I don’t know. He’s a certain age, he’s been living a certain way with a certain mindset that obviously tells him that that type of behavior is O.K., and me telling him that it’s not — maybe it will give it a human face. Obviously he doesn’t see people with Asian faces as having anything in common with himself because he wouldn’t treat them that way, ”

Barlow added that she might mention the similar ages of her and Llodra’s children to appeal to his humanity.

“If he calls, great. If not, I’m not going to lose sleep over it. It’s really not worth that to me.”

Give it up for Llodra. :worship:

duong = :lol:

Cloudygirl
03-13-2012, 09:09 PM
I know it must be difficult for players on court sometimes when they are distracted by the comments of fans but that kind of language - whether construed as racist or not, is completely unacceptable. I don't know how anyone can justify it.

It makes me lose a lot of respect for Mika. Racist or not racist the language alone is disgusting. I'm sure he wouldn't walk up to a random person on the street who upset him and swear at them and abuse them.

habibko
03-13-2012, 09:15 PM
those who knew Llodra well knew that he has always been an asshole, always made it hard for me to be a fan

Pirata.
03-13-2012, 09:21 PM
Wow, so the "I could make love to a Chinese girl" comment was legit. Disappointing and disgraceful behavior, Mika :(

Rita
03-13-2012, 10:10 PM
Idiot.

scoobs
03-13-2012, 10:11 PM
Done with him, unfortunately.

The original incident was bad enough, but he couldn't have made a worse mess of the PR of all this if he'd worn his "I hate Asians" sandwich board and rang his bell all around Indian Wells.

What an idiot he is.

Smoke944
03-13-2012, 10:27 PM
If you got called f*king yank all the time, maybe you would

Personally, I don't see how the term yank could ever be offensive :lol:
But maybe that's just me :shrug:

LisaKoh
03-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Wow. No attempts to call, not even to apologize. Disgusting.

I'm glad that she talked to the press to address this issue because the fine is a joke. Maybe it will put more pressure on the ATP to suspend him for his next few tournaments. Considering his lack of contrition, he probably doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Such a shame, I used to like Mika but this is unacceptable.

rhinooooo
03-13-2012, 11:14 PM
lol what an absolute prick this Llodra

Geo
03-13-2012, 11:51 PM
Llodra has always been a jerk, but now he's proven himself to be an ignorant asshole. It baffles me why anyone is still defending him :o I hope he gets booed in Miami.

Shirogane
03-14-2012, 01:15 AM
Did he say "putain" or "putain de !"? It doesn't mean the same thing.

duong
03-14-2012, 01:18 AM
I still read nothing racist in anything I read about Llodra here :shrug:

IS there anything new about racism ?

If you keep on being certain about that because it's just pleasant for your own personal little comfort, please do Li Ching Yuen : live in your comfortable comfort of somebody who does not care at all about what other people think and feel, just wants to feel the comfort of being the one who's thinks he's right.

I don't care about the comfort of MTF community : being 100 against one guy (Llodra) doesn't make you more clever or relevant, it just makes you a group of little sheep with no personal reflection.

I am banned for racism because I fuck your stupid MTF little sheep's cliches.

PS : I'm 95% sure that what people translated (it was said in French) meant "putain la chinoise elle me fait chier" : "my God the Chinese makes me sick"
the word "putain" which Pirata's "heroe", Jean Dujardin, used during the Oscars ceremony, and which was not even bleeped by American TV contrary to American rude words.

duong
03-14-2012, 01:20 AM
Did he say "putain" or "putain de !"? It doesn't mean the same thing.

do you think they care one % about that ?? not one second they don't, just like the rest they just want it to fit with the cliches they were certain about :shrug:

duong
03-14-2012, 01:25 AM
Obviously he doesn’t see people with Asian faces as having anything in common with himself because he wouldn’t treat them that way

she has never been and could never be on MTF :lol:

Li Ching Yuen
03-14-2012, 01:28 AM
To put it in short: shut the fuck up.

fmolinari2005
03-14-2012, 01:36 AM
Fucking human beings ...

TennisGrandSlam
03-14-2012, 02:31 AM
Llodra should not go to Asia for ATP tour.

tripwires
03-14-2012, 02:31 AM
do you think they care one % about that ?? not one second they don't, just like the rest they just want it to fit with the cliches they were certain about :shrug:

Not everyone is a French speaker here. I realise that the meaning of words can get lost in translation which is why I tried to make it a point to refer to his remarks as his "alleged" remarks and language along those lines. You're seriously overreacting in this thread. There's absolutely and obviously no issue if you don't find Llodra's remarks racist, but there's no need to throw a hissy fit just because no one seems to share your opinion. As far as I can see no one has called you racist, so all this "banned for racism" bullshit that you're spewing is unnecessary and a little bit childish.

Back on topic: Llodra :o Nice to know you'd make love to a Chinese girl but this Chinese girl sure as hell wouldn't let you get anywhere near her. :o

abraxas21
03-14-2012, 04:55 AM
If you keep on being certain about that because it's just pleasant for your own personal little comfort, please do Li Ching Yuen : live in your comfortable comfort of somebody who does not care at all about what other people think and feel, just wants to feel the comfort of being the one who's thinks he's right.

I don't care about the comfort of MTF community : being 100 against one guy (Llodra) doesn't make you more clever or relevant, it just makes you a group of little sheep with no personal reflection.

I am banned for racism because I fuck your stupid MTF little sheep's cliches.

:baby:

Li Ching Yuen
03-14-2012, 05:06 AM
This is a prime example of not getting yourself in an argument unless you know you can handle yourself somehow.

FFS man, you're a grown-up.

LisaKoh
03-14-2012, 05:50 AM
You're seriously overreacting in this thread. There's absolutely and obviously no issue if you don't find Llodra's remarks racist, but there's no need to throw a hissy fit just because no one seems to share your opinion. As far as I can see no one has called you racist, so all this "banned for racism" bullshit that you're spewing is unnecessary and a little bit childish.


Thank you for summing up what I've wanted to say for the past few pages.

Johnny Iznrr
03-14-2012, 06:18 AM
Sadly, being a good player or a good poster or even having good taste in players is no guarantee of not being a prick and/or racist :o

Start da Game
03-14-2012, 06:41 AM
what an utter clown.....that was definitely in bad taste to be suggesting that he would make love with chinese.....

i assume the french must be throwing around racist remarks towards spaniards too during the french open.....rafa is a spartan for rubbing it off and concentrating on the job year after year.....

tripwires
03-14-2012, 06:50 AM
Wow how's that even relevant to this thread SDF?

leng jai
03-14-2012, 06:53 AM
Start Da....Ajde

Ajde.

Allez
03-14-2012, 09:35 AM
Llodra :facepalm:

Time Violation
03-14-2012, 10:05 AM
Wow, so the "I could make love to a Chinese girl" comment was legit. Disappointing and disgraceful behavior, Mika :(

I guess Llodra was trying to say he would totally f**k a f*king Chinese :lol:

ossie
03-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Llodra should not go to Asia for ATP tour.in fact he should just retire for the sake of humanity

Beat
03-14-2012, 10:35 AM
I don't think "fucking Chinese" is inherently racist, if the word Chinese is used to differentiate someone (i.e make it clear which person you're talking about). When you're angry with someone you can sometimes focus on their particular characteristics: eg. "that fucking redhead" without meaning to infer anything about others who share those characteristics.

That doesn't mean Llodra wasn't being racist, though.

and by doing so, you turn this very characteristic into a negative thing, you single out something that you think that person should be ashamed of. noone ever goes "you fucking beauty" when being angry. so yes, calling someone fucking *insert ethnicity" is inherently racist and clearly shows the mindset of llodra.

duong
03-14-2012, 10:42 AM
This is a prime example of not getting yourself in an argument unless you know you can handle yourself somehow.

FFS man, you're a grown-up.

:baby:

Are you on your period Duong?

Ajde.

Another version of Godwin point :shrug: : well do you think forums like this one are really made for grown-ups' activities ?

I've lost far too much time on that forum, that's my not-adult part or rather depressed one.

What I said in this thread was simply coherent from my side but facing human short-sighting and narrow-mindedness (Li Ching Yuen's especially who hasn't questioned himself one second in all that : just talking talking to impose his dictating cliche that's the only one purpose of a professional forumer :shrug: ) ... like on every forum.

Being a not-depressed adult implies spending time for my work and my wife, not on forums like this one. I've learnt enough about humans and debates and "democracy" on these ones : it leaves you more depressed than before going there. The problem is I'm paid to be a statistician for civil service and supposedly my work should be to help debates, democracy and humans. It doesn't work : like all the rest of these debates in the end it's erased by short-sightedness :shrug: Just take the money, and bring it to my wife, the only one for whom I can do anything.

LisaKoh
03-14-2012, 10:52 AM
I am banned for racism because I fuck your stupid MTF little sheep's cliches....Another version of Godwin point :shrug:

No, this is not Godwin's law, it's Pommer's law.

MaxPower
03-14-2012, 11:22 AM
oh look! a storm in a teacup

tripwires
03-14-2012, 01:04 PM
in fact he should just retire for the sake of humanity

This is probably the only good post you've ever contributed to this forum. :speakles:

ssin
03-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Another version of Godwin point :shrug: : well do you think forums like this one are really made for grown-ups' activities ?

I've lost far too much time on that forum, that's my not-adult part or rather depressed one.

What I said in this thread was simply coherent from my side but facing human short-sighting and narrow-mindedness (Li Ching Yuen's especially who hasn't questioned himself one second in all that : just talking talking to impose his dictating cliche that's the only one purpose of a professional forumer :shrug: ) ... like on every forum.

Being a not-depressed adult implies spending time for my work and my wife, not on forums like this one. I've learnt enough about humans and debates and "democracy" on these ones : it leaves you more depressed than before going there. The problem is I'm paid to be a statistician for civil service and supposedly my work should be to help debates, democracy and humans. It doesn't work : like all the rest of these debates in the end it's erased by short-sightedness :shrug: Just take the money, and bring it to my wife, the only one for whom I can do anything.

rule No1 about internet communication: is - it is more of a communication failure than communication and it is very frustrating. It defies logic, since it was created for better communication in the first place. It still enables us to exchange some opinions and contact people across the globe. Than you can see first hand what a clash of cultures, preconceptions and language issues can produce :D People always struggle to communicate, even in real life. And the internet... volumes of new books will be written about the subject. I find it hilarious, that's my way to deal with it. There were even some harsh words between me and you, remember that? no real reason for that actually, it was based on nothing, because we cannot judge characters on the basis of few damn sentences on an internet forum. Or we can try to do so and usually we fail miserably :lol:

Since we have talked before about things, I am 100% sure you don't have anything to do with racism. Literally. It also means that I think you are simply much, much less racially aware than an average inhabitant of the planet earth. In some corners of the world (maybe most of this world? ) it is a big damn thing, and MANY people are painfully aware of both race and racism. I myself have 0 tolerance towards racism, but sometimes I admit I can lose my perspective in sense I find it difficult to put myself in other people's shoes. But you can just feel and you know how much that lady was really hurt. And I think the most offensive thing was exactly that Chinese word, and NOT because being Chinese means something bad. When in doubt, I prefer to ask the offended about the opinion. This is the opinion that counts, more than my opinion or your opinion.

Second thing, Llodra seems to be a textbook jerk, I strongly suspect he is indeed a racist, and his later comments were :stupid: and did nothing to make me think otherwise, but it's still just my opinion. One of the worst racist outburst that I saw on youtube was from that stand-up comedian, that Cosmo guy from Seinfield show.. it was ugly, and still some people think "he was just joking".

Oh yes, and btw there seem to be so many jokes about the French, French this, and French that,so many it's not even funny anymore. ;) Regards, and don't be mad. You seem to be maybe just a bit more sensitive than it's good for this internet "communication".

Vamos_Me_Rafa
03-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Disgusting. "I love Chinese. I would even make love to one." No one wants your pity fuck you nasty cockroach.

Raiden
03-14-2012, 03:04 PM
since when is Chinese a race or a racist derogatory name?

how is it any different than saying fucking American or fucking Saudi?Hallelujah! :bigclap: Amen! :clap2:

Hey, finally we have a rational poster with common sense for a change (in this otherwise messy thread full of goody-two-shoes, sanctimonious fake racial outrages).

Vamos_Me_Rafa
03-14-2012, 03:56 PM
It's wrong because she's not "fucking" Chinese and he shouldn't be losing his cool like that to any fan, it's a disgrace to himself and the tour.

emotion
03-14-2012, 04:16 PM
Wow, so the "I could make love to a Chinese girl" comment was legit. Disappointing and disgraceful behavior, Mika :(

haha, the original comment was distasteful but the Chinese girl comment is the best idgaf attitude I've ever seen.

Li Ching Yuen
03-14-2012, 05:44 PM
Learn to read people, he made multiple comments during the match.

abraxas21
03-14-2012, 06:10 PM
rule No1 about internet communication: is - it is more of a communication failure than communication and it is very frustrating. It defies logic, since it was created for better communication in the first place. It still enables us to exchange some opinions and contact people across the globe. Than you can see first hand what a clash of cultures, preconceptions and language issues can produce :D People always struggle to communicate, even in real life. And the internet... volumes of new books will be written about the subject. I find it hilarious, that's my way to deal with it. There were even some harsh words between me and you, remember that? no real reason for that actually, it was based on nothing, because we cannot judge characters on the basis of few damn sentences on an internet forum. Or we can try to do so and usually we fail miserably :lol:

Since we have talked before about things, I am 100% sure you don't have anything to do with racism. Literally. It also means that I think you are simply much, much less racially aware than an average inhabitant of the planet earth. In some corners of the world (maybe most of this world? ) it is a big damn thing, and MANY people are painfully aware of both race and racism. I myself have 0 tolerance towards racism, but sometimes I admit I can lose my perspective in sense I find it difficult to put myself in other people's shoes. But you can just feel and you know how much that lady was really hurt. And I think the most offensive thing was exactly that Chinese word, and NOT because being Chinese means something bad. When in doubt, I prefer to ask the offended about the opinion. This is the opinion that counts, more than my opinion or your opinion.

Second thing, Llodra seems to be a textbook jerk, I strongly suspect he is indeed a racist, and his later comments were :stupid: and did nothing to make me think otherwise, but it's still just my opinion. One of the worst racist outburst that I saw on youtube was from that stand-up comedian, that Cosmo guy from Seinfield show.. it was ugly, and still some people think "he was just joking".

Oh yes, and btw there seem to be so many jokes about the French, French this, and French that,so many it's not even funny anymore. ;) Regards, and don't be mad. You seem to be maybe just a bit more sensitive than it's good for this internet "communication".

+1

nellis_lv
03-14-2012, 06:40 PM
how is it any different than saying fucking American or fucking Saudi?

That's like calling someone f**king awesome or f**king not. :D

Seriously though.. isn't it obvious by now that a label is only derogatory if there is some kind of inferiority complex linked to it?

You f**king awesome, American, hetero, white male vs. you fuckin' handicapped, eastern european, communist, welfare recipient ...

habibko
03-14-2012, 08:24 PM
There is nothing inferior about Chinese people as far as I know

nellis_lv
03-14-2012, 09:09 PM
There is nothing inferior about Chinese people as far as I know

There isn't.

It's just that they need someone to tell them that. (the males, especially)

habibko
03-14-2012, 09:13 PM
There isn't.

It's just that they need someone to tell them that. (the males, especially)

Why?

Pirata.
03-14-2012, 09:31 PM
Another version of Godwin point :shrug:

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

Fail :o

bluesoleil
03-14-2012, 09:49 PM
From Llodra's website
“ Je tiens à m’excuser ! ”
mars 14th, 2012 par Rédacteur ML

Michaël Llodra : “ Je souhaiterai m’expliquer sur la polémique lancée à mon égard et certifier par dessus tout que je ne suis bien entendu pas raciste. Je l’ai déjà affirmé et justifié à de nombreuses reprises par le passé ! Toutes les personnes qui me connaissent personnellement le savent très bien.

Sur un terrain, parfois, lorsque les choses ne se passent pas exactement comme je l’envisage, mon agacement me fait commettre des jurons bêtes. En l’occurrence, la dame en question était bien loin du terrain mais un petit groupe au premier rang avait décidé de faire vendre du papier et de rapporter mes propos en les déformants de surcroit. Je constate que ces mots ont choqués certaines personnes auprès desquelles je souhaite bien sur m’excuser immédiatement. Un sportif de haut niveau qui a valeur d’exemple ne peut pas dire tout ce qui lui passe par la tête encore moins lorsqu’il s’agit de jurons…

A ma décharge, l’organisateur venait de placer mon double juste à la suite de mon simple. Cette programmation rendait presque impossible mes chances de qualification. Indian Wells était un objectif important, mon immense frustration m’a fait déraper par les mots !

Je tiens vraiment à m’excuser d’avoir pu blesser la communauté chinoise ! ”

Translation by a Canadian journalist.
"I'd like to apologize"
I’d like to explain myself, regarding the controversy surrounding me and to reaffirm, above all, that I am of course not racist. I have already affirmed and justified that numerous times in the past! Everyone who knows me personally knows this very well.

Sometimes, on a court, when things aren’t going exactly the way I envisioned them, my annoyance leads to my using some very stupid expletives. In this case, the woman in question was quite far from the court, but a small group in the first row decided to make hay with it and report my words – distorting them, on top of that.

I realize that those words upset some people and to them, I’d like to apologize immediately. A high-level athlete who is a role model cannot say everything that goes through his head, even less when it’s vulgar language.

In my defence, the organizers had just scheduled my doubles right after my singles. This scheduling made my success nearly impossible. Indian Wells being an important goal, my tremendous frustration made me lose control of my language.

I would truly like to apologize for having wounded the Chinese community!

nellis_lv
03-14-2012, 09:54 PM
Why?

I think you should ask them that.

I think their culture doesn't help. Suppression of individuality and subservience to authority don't necessarily promote masculine traits.

Allez
03-14-2012, 09:57 PM
So Llodra claims he could see himself sleeping with a Chinese woman ? He should have been asked if he could see himself sleeping with a Chinese man and handed another fine for being homophobic if he answered NO!

habibko
03-14-2012, 10:09 PM
I think you should ask them that.

I think their culture doesn't help. Suppression of individuality and subservience to authority don't necessarily promote masculine traits.

Nothing wrong with their culture and there are plenty of white sissies, you are generalizing too much and acting like a spokesperson for them

DanaKz
03-14-2012, 10:11 PM
From Llodra's website


Translation by a Canadian journalist.

Mika! :superlol:

Deivid23
03-15-2012, 12:02 AM
What a booooring story. I bet that fangirl would have laughed if Gulbis had told his husband "Shut the fuck up you ugly shagger of Chinese women"

Marine
03-15-2012, 12:22 AM
So stupid...this "polemic" is so stupid, I can't believe that.
That's not a secret, Llodra is a crazy guy, able to do very weird things, to say things which have no sense.
This day he said f...chinese, another day he would have said f... italian, if he had seen a dog at this moment, he would have said "f...dog"... he was angry, everybody, everything would have been "f..." at this moment...it's not RACISM. It's not clever at all, but it has nothing to see with racism.

Singularity
03-15-2012, 12:43 AM
and by doing so, you turn this very characteristic into a negative thing, you single out something that you think that person should be ashamed of. noone ever goes "you fucking beauty" when being angry. so yes, calling someone fucking *insert ethnicity" is inherently racist and clearly shows the mindset of llodra.
When I say "that fucking redhead is annoying me", the hair colour isn't what I have the problem with. Nor need I be making a statement about other people with the same type of hair. If the person had happened to be a brunette, it wouldn't have changed anything - I would still be annoyed at that person for unrelated reasons.

Obviously when you use someone's race to single them out for an annoyance, it carries much stronger connotations, and perhaps unavoidably they'll feel you're judging them based on a particular racial stereotype. My point is just that you might not have intended this. When you throw insults you're not trying to be sensitive anyway.

tripwires
03-15-2012, 02:19 AM
I think you should ask them that.

I think their culture doesn't help. Suppression of individuality and subservience to authority don't necessarily promote masculine traits.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

What on earth are you talking about? I don't even know where to start, so I won't even bother.

nellis_lv
03-15-2012, 02:38 AM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

What on earth are you talking about? I don't even know where to start, so I won't even bother.

:D

No, start.

MrEleganza
03-15-2012, 03:04 AM
When I say "that fucking redhead is annoying me", the hair colour isn't what I have the problem with. Nor need I be making a statement about other people with the same type of hair. If the person had happened to be a brunette, it wouldn't have changed anything - I would still be annoyed at that person for unrelated reasons.


Okay, both these points have already been made multiple times, but I'll repeat it even though the Llodra defenders seem incapable of grasping it or understanding context at all, like every word means the same thing in each and every situation.

First, if you say, "That fucking redhead is annoying me," it sounds like you need to describe her in order to point her out to someone, as opposed to just yelling it out to no one in particular as Llodra seemed to have done.

Second, and more importantly: If it had been a French Male cheering annoyingly for Gulbis, would Llodra have yelled out, "That fucking FRENCHMAN!" Of course not!

tripwires
03-15-2012, 03:59 AM
:D

No, start.

In your previous post you essentially implied or even stated that Chinese males lack masculine traits because of some perceived "[s]uppression of individuality and subservience to authority" that is apparently inherent in the Chinese culture. In another post that you made you insinuated that Chinese people view themselves as inferior, the males in particular, as a result of this cultural defect.

You're making broad, sweeping generalisations about an entire race of people with little (if any) evidence to back up your claim. Your posts also revealed a very facile and shaky understanding of the Chinese culture. I don't need to point out that being a Chinese male doesn't necessarily or always cause the said male to lack masculine traits because this is pretty obvious. With regard to the Chinese culture point, perhaps you were thinking in terms of the political situation in the People's Republic of China, in which case I won't comment because that would take forever and would be off-topic. If not, I would simply say this: I don't even fully understand my own culture as a Chinese because it is multi-faceted and complex. That said, it is a commonly-held misconception, especially amongst Westerners (I'm using this word out of convenience), that my culture suppresses individualism or promotes subservience to authority. It doesn't. The lack of emphasis on individualism is not a supression of the same; it may be a consequence of the promotion of other values, but it's certainly not something that Confucius taught.

I hope that made sense.

nellis_lv
03-15-2012, 04:45 AM
In your previous post you essentially implied or even stated that Chinese males lack masculine traits because of some perceived "[s]uppression of individuality and subservience to authority" that is apparently inherent in the Chinese culture. In another post that you made you insinuated that Chinese people view themselves as inferior, the males in particular, as a result of this cultural defect.

You're making broad, sweeping generalisations about an entire race of people with little (if any) evidence to back up your claim. Your posts also revealed a very facile and shaky understanding of the Chinese culture. I don't need to point out that being a Chinese male doesn't necessarily or always cause the said male to lack masculine traits because this is pretty obvious. With regard to the Chinese culture point, perhaps you were thinking in terms of the political situation in the People's Republic of China, in which case I won't comment because that would take forever and would be off-topic. If not, I would simply say this: I don't even fully understand my own culture as a Chinese because it is multi-faceted and complex. That said, it is a commonly-held misconception, especially amongst Westerners (I'm using this word out of convenience), that my culture suppresses individualism or promotes subservience to authority. It doesn't. The lack of emphasis on individualism is not a supression of the same; it may be a consequence of the promotion of other values, but it's certainly not something that Confucius taught.

I hope that made sense.

Thanks for this. Understood.

It's not just the Chinese I'm pointing out, but the shared culture amongst most Asians... even the ones who've immigrated overseas.

It's not about a certain political situation, either. Isn't that usually just a product of the culture, anyway?

I might have a rudimentary understanding of oriental culture and its history, but I'm only basing my assumptions on plain observation and simple conclusions about society, in general.

That Asian men are considered less masculine is pretty much universally accepted, right?

Whether they are or not, or whether they necessarily have to be, is up for debate.

I know, for a fact, that there are some tough, hard-nosed, independent oriental males but I think they had to fight (their family and/or culture) a lot harder to be that way... which is why I respect them more.

Whereas, for a European, American, or latin male, it might come easier and more naturally.

As for the promotion of other values causing the suppresion of individuality, etc., I don't think it can happen any other way. It's tough to promote community and the individual (or choice and obedience) at the same time.

tripwires
03-15-2012, 05:09 AM
Thanks for this. Understood.

It's not just the Chinese I'm pointing out, but the shared culture amongst most Asians... even the ones who've immigrated overseas.



I'm not sure if there's really a shared Asian culture. Asians are actually very diverse and the only real thing that Asians have in common is the fact that we live in Asia.


It's not about a certain political situation, either. Isn't that usually just a product of the culture, anyway?


Sometimes, but politics can influence culture as well. I won't really comment on this though 'cause I don't know enough. :)


I might have a rudimentary understanding of oriental culture and its history, but I'm only basing my assumptions on plain observation and simple conclusions about society, in general.

That Asian men are considered less masculine is pretty much universally accepted, right?


:eek: Um no. I've never heard of that until today. :eek: Seems to me it's merely a matter of your own perception based on your experiences with Asian males, which (no offence) sound pretty limited to me. I've dated 3 Chinese guys, 1 Nepalese. 2 out of 3 of the Chinese guys that I dated are alpha males. I've never considered Asian males to be less masculine than non-Asians.


As for the promotion of other values causing the suppresion of individuality, etc., I don't think it can happen any other way. It's tough to promote community and the individual (or choice and obedience) at the same time.

I don't disagree. I merely disagreed with your suggestion that the Chinese culture actively seeks to suppress individualism. Confucian thought is pretty much the most prevalent and long-lasting Chinese philosophy and in its pure conception, it barely comments on individualism (that is, from what I understand). That doesn't quite mean that individualism is necessarily incompatible with or rejected by Chinese culture; it's just not something that's emphasised.

Pirata.
03-15-2012, 06:09 AM
So stupid...this "polemic" is so stupid, I can't believe that.
That's not a secret, Llodra is a crazy guy, able to do very weird things, to say things which have no sense.
This day he said f...chinese, another day he would have said f... italian, if he had seen a dog at this moment, he would have said "f...dog"... he was angry, everybody, everything would have been "f..." at this moment...it's not RACISM. It's not clever at all, but it has nothing to see with racism.

:bs:

Beat
03-15-2012, 10:12 AM
When I say "that fucking redhead is annoying me", the hair colour isn't what I have the problem with. Nor need I be making a statement about other people with the same type of hair. If the person had happened to be a brunette, it wouldn't have changed anything - I would still be annoyed at that person for unrelated reasons.

like i said in my previous post, you don't single out a trait that you consider positive or beautiful if you post "fucking" beforehand because you're angry. you'd never go "that fucking brunette", now would you? so yes, if you say "that fucking redhead", of course that person is insulted. maybe you should try it out.

Start da Game
03-15-2012, 10:27 AM
mix of africans, indians and mesapotamians fighting among themselves about what is racism and what is not is all very funny.....

LisaKoh
03-21-2012, 06:37 PM
Bumping this thread to see if press, media and fans will remember the incident in Miami.

r2473
03-21-2012, 06:52 PM
Llodra will simply buy an air conditioner and ditch the fan. It can get hot and sticky in Miami.

Problem solved.