Are you glad that Serve & Volley is pretty much extinct now? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Are you glad that Serve & Volley is pretty much extinct now?

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mdhallu
07-07-2006, 05:38 AM
Is it because the tennis academies aren't teaching it?
It is too hard to learn?
Is it because people think that raquet technology only dictates a baseliners game?

megadeth
07-07-2006, 07:02 AM
it's because a lot of kids today admire their shots that's why a lot opt to play from the baseline.

in my opinion, becuase it's also more fun (being a baseliner myself). there's a certain staisfaction i get from hitting winners while on the run compared to hitting volleys

but that's just me

kronus12
07-07-2006, 07:56 AM
Is because more players are more powerful and the courts are slower, Tim Henman said that the courts are wimbledon where noticebly slower compare to 5 years ago. Tennis ball were also heavier and racket technolgy could be another reason, thats my 2 cent in for the theory.
I do wish there were more serve and volley love watching those guys play i thought rafter was awesome but i rank edberg just ahead of him though.
Even Pete was beautiful to watch when people actually started to return his serves and force him to volley.

Rafter and Pete weren't what i would call good friends remember the famous "what's the difference between him and rafter 10 slams" ouch.

DrJules
07-07-2006, 08:04 AM
Pete and Goran were not serve and volley exponents. It was mostly big serves and putting away weak returns of serve if there was a return at all.

pistolmarat
07-07-2006, 10:40 AM
Becouse it's harder to learn.
Of course some may say that the courts are slower(and they are), rackets help playing from the baseline more than S&V style(that's true), but look at mr Bjorkman - 34 yers old, great doubles specialist and Wimbledon semifinalist(at least). That shows the real problem - the new style of play developed in tennis academies. It all comes down to the fact, that most of the guys(and almost all girls) out there didn't learn the basics of net play. Everyone would agree that S&V requires more speed and better precision, solid serve difficult to return, great flexibility etc. But if you do it well it's still very much effective especially on grass. It's easier to stay back and hit the ball as hard as you can, or chase every ball down etc. And if you look at some rallies on grass nowadays, you could easily see how many of them could end quicker if the ofensive player came to the net to finish the point off with a volley. Well that's my point of view.

Puschkin
07-07-2006, 10:43 AM
Becouse it's harder to learn.


I feel there is some truth in that.

Fumus
07-07-2006, 01:53 PM
There are many reason why serve and volley players are not as prevalent as they used to be. Racquet technology is certainly a factor, with advent of new lighter and powerful racquets it's easy to pass players that come into net. Also the courts and balls have been slowed in some events making it harder to get a weak return to volley way.

All of these reasons may factor, but two words can sum up the change that caused the end of the serve and volley; Andre Agassi. Agassi was the first of a new generation of players that could hit the ball very powerfully off the ground and dominated opponents primarily from the baseline. If Andre was the player that symbolized the change, maybe Lendl was the father of the change. The grip change popularized by Ivan Lendl known as the western grip or semi-western grip allowed the players to hit the ball with much more topspin and therefore pace than ever before. This topspin and pace made it easier than ever to pass net rushers. The new spin from these shots improved the return of players, allowed players to dip the ball extremely low and at high speed toward oncoming net rushers, this increased difficultly on the volley in general with the new spin and pace.

Although still an effective game plan, serve and volley tactics are still employed in today’s ever-modern game. The pure serve and volley player can have a tough time making a living unless they have a great serve and superb hand eye coordination on the volley. In general it takes serve and volley players much longer to develop than the ordinary player. Mastering the serve and volley game is quite complicated and some players like Patrick Rafter didn’t see success with there own game until much later in their career.

It's much harder in today's game to be an effective serve and volley player due to the new techniques in ball striking. To simply put it, only a great serve and volley player can cut in today’s game. It’s much easier to make a living on the tour from the baseline. The science of striking a ball has changed since the 70,80s, and even early 90s and players can simply hit the ball harder these days because the tennis stroke has evolved.

DDrago2
07-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Racquet technology, better baseliners and slower courts are usual explanations, but honestly I feel that it is not only that. I think that it IS possible to play more serve&volley. Maybe THE ONE will come along? But he is not on the radar right now... Everything tells you there is 5 years ahead without an elite serve&volley player

Timariot
07-07-2006, 02:05 PM
Funny thing is, when Borg came around with his (semi) Western forehand grip, his game was called OBSOLETE and he would never win Wimbledon unless he adopted cornerstones of modern game - universal (continental) grip and one-handed backhand.

Action Jackson
07-07-2006, 02:19 PM
It goes in cycles.

Xavier7
02-11-2011, 03:27 PM
I think I first knew for sure what was happening to the game when I watched Wimbledon 2002, but did other people see it coming before then?

It seemed to just change really fast.
If you go back to just 1999 the top 20 is still packed with serve volleyers.

ossie
02-11-2011, 03:28 PM
it died out when players started hitting passing shots properly.

Magick
02-11-2011, 03:34 PM
next year maybe

Nadull_tard
02-11-2011, 03:38 PM
When mugs like Andre Sa started to make 4th round of Wimbledon.

Haelfix
02-11-2011, 04:48 PM
When Lleyton Hewitt was 18 and dominating a lot of the S/Vers I knew it was going to go out of fashion. I remember one match against Sampras in particular on a fast court where he was winning the point everytime Pete got to net, and losing everytime Pete stayed back. He made it look so easy too.

All you had to do was hit a low but accurate return, and have enough speed to track down the halfvolley. Lleyton did both well, and the court looked all of a sudden a lot smaller for the S/Ver.

Johnny Groove
02-11-2011, 04:51 PM
Wimbledon 2001 was serve and volley's last hurrah.

Mjau!
02-11-2011, 06:19 PM
I did not know players used to play like that until I saw "Wimbledon Classics".

scoobs
02-11-2011, 06:25 PM
1920s when Suzanne Lenglen got going, she rarely serve-volleyed and it's been downhill ever since.

leng jai
02-11-2011, 06:36 PM
Nadull's appearance on tour was the knockout blow.

Time Violation
02-11-2011, 06:39 PM
Similar question today on tennis dot com :)

I think there’s some truth in the courts being slowed, and also in the power of the players. ATP stringer Nate Ferguson, who does the racquets for all of the top guys, dates the end of the volley to a specific match: Sampras vs. Kuerten, semifinals, ATP Masters Cup, Lisbon, 2000. He says he watched Kuerten, the pioneer of the polyester string, put his passing shots at Sampras’s feet and wondered if the volley was dead forever. He’s wasn’t all that far off.

http://blogs.tennis.com/thewrap/2011/02/reading-the-readers-new-year-edition.html

tennishero
02-11-2011, 07:09 PM
S&V only works against mugs nowadays. Besides its too predictable and opponents will figure you out after a while.

Arakasi
02-11-2011, 07:18 PM
it died out when players started hitting passing shots properly.

:haha:

FlameOn
02-11-2011, 07:25 PM
S&V is boring. Good riddance. :bigwave:

Filo V.
02-11-2011, 07:30 PM
When Roger Federer started dominating.

moon language
02-11-2011, 08:43 PM
Hewitt.

ossie
02-11-2011, 11:32 PM
it died out when players started hitting passing shots properly.

Nadull's appearance on tour was the knockout blow.

not a coincidence these two.

allpro
02-11-2011, 11:43 PM
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5764/luxilon.jpg

Myrre
02-12-2011, 08:39 AM
If Agassi and Sampras had played with today's equipment, I think their h2h record would have been reversed.

Topspindoctor
02-12-2011, 08:59 AM
If Agassi and Sampras had played with today's equipment, I think their h2h record would have been reversed.

I think so too. Slower surfaces combined with new strings would make Agassi an even more monstrous returner. Sampras would not be able to serve his way out of trouble.

Start da Game
02-12-2011, 09:14 AM
agassi kept changing to the latest equipment through out his career while sampras stuck to his wilson prostaff original stick of the 80s through out his career even until his last professional match in 2002 the us open final, only slight modifications were in his string guage to suit different surfaces.......

Start da Game
02-12-2011, 09:16 AM
serve and volley basically died with the fading off of players like henman, goran, rafter.......

DrJules
02-12-2011, 09:20 AM
When the perfect bounce of hard courts gave players no incentive to hit the ball before it bounced to avoid bad bounces.

Shirogane
02-12-2011, 11:47 AM
hehe, funny what you said, made me remember that time when Agassi hit a swing volley from the baseline against the X Man on grass. :lol:

ossie
02-12-2011, 02:37 PM
hehe, funny what you said, made me remember that time when Agassi hit a swing volley from the baseline against the X Man on grass. :lol:thank god tennis has evolved and we've moved on :haha:

rocketassist
02-12-2011, 02:49 PM
thank god tennis has evolved and we've moved on :haha:

Your mouth is full of more shit than a scouse slapper.

ossie
02-12-2011, 04:22 PM
Your mouth is full of more shit than a scouse slapper.dont blame others if you cant appreciate tennis :rolleyes:

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-12-2011, 07:16 PM
2002

i think watching hewitt win wimbledon was such a huge shocker

it died out so fast

its such a bloody shame, its not even considered important for an aTP player to know basic volley techniques

roddick doesnt know basic volley technique

out_here_grindin
02-12-2011, 08:11 PM
When Safin crunched Sampras in the US Open final

Start da Game
02-13-2011, 05:50 AM
we had instances before the 2000 us final where baseliners got the better of serve and volleyers.......

i don't think sampy was all that focused after wimbledon 2000.......if i am not wrong he did not play a tournament from wimbledon to us open that year or did he play cincinnatti i am not sure.......

the rise of players like kafelnikov, moya, rios, kuerten to no.1 spots, agassi's resurgence.......i actually feel the baseliners trend really started in the 90s.......serve and volley just got killed eventually because the intent among the players to volley started declining.......what adds to this opinion is the fact that baseliners like kafelnikov, kuerten, rios and moya were no mugs at the net either.......

i don't believe in this 'groundstroke evolution' bullshit......sampras even in his later stages of his career held a comfortable lead of 4-1 over hewitt until 2001 and hewitt took over once sampras totally faded off.......heck did pete even care about tennis after 2000?

people talk as if hewitt or one of those weak era clowns started some new trend......my arse.......the trend actually started in the 90s when agassi zoomed on to the scene with big returns and started blasting people from the back.......

we had the SNV geniuses as well as up and coming baseliners who were no mugs at the net either.......the reason why i believe 90s was the best era.......

DorianGray7
02-21-2012, 10:30 PM
It seems that this style of play that so dominated Tennis in its earlier days is now extinct probably for good and is not coming back. As a Tennis fan do you think this is good for Tennis?

Voo de Mar
02-21-2012, 10:33 PM
I think it's very bad because the best is diversity.

Jamoz
02-21-2012, 10:35 PM
Nope, 6 hours of mechanical baseline tennis is just :zzz: What we do need is a golden middle road ;)

Certinfy
02-21-2012, 10:36 PM
No, it's awful. I'm not even a fan of it but it would be nice to have a wide variation of players now. Also sucks that 4 of the top 5 are defensive baseliners now to be fair too.

MuzzahLovah
02-21-2012, 10:38 PM
I like diversity. And I certainly wish there were more dynamic, interesting players like Llodra instead of servebots like Raonic or baseliner bashers like Almagro.

DorianGray7
02-21-2012, 10:42 PM
Llodra is the very last S&V player and he is really old.

Once he is gone S&V will officially go the way of the dinosaur. Extinction.

Li Ching Yuen
02-21-2012, 10:45 PM
Balance in surfaces and speeds between:

Slams
Masters
500's and 250

As well as a balance in picking their spots in the calendar.

^that = tennis in perfect conditions.

It's as simple as that.

MaxPower
02-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Yes but only somewhat. Even if I was young when the big S&V stars played I never cared much for the S&V as the main strategy and tbh total serve fests are just as bad as total baseline grinding.

I want the in-between. S&V should be viable to spice things up but also easily countered if overused.

I think some indoor courts managed the balance very well. Remember Paris Bercy in 2010 and Llodras magical run that finally ended in the SF vs Soderling. That was one of the more exciting matches that year. An offensive net attacking Llodra vs an offensive baseline playing Soderling. Almost perfectly matched. After seeing that match I realized what a rare sight it is but also that it takes two to tango.

If one player goes to strictly counter and plays defensive S&V is useless nowadays. S&V needs the free points and has always needed the free points because you will botch a lot of volleys. That's how it is. If you get nothing for free like vs the defensive machines in todays game it only works on very fast courts where defensive play gets a natural disadvantage

DorianGray7
02-21-2012, 10:51 PM
Didn't Llodra using pure serve & volley beat Djokovic to get to that final that year?

O_o -someone correct me if I'm wrong.

stewietennis
02-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Having one style that dominates makes it boring. In the early 90s I didn't like the 3-stroke rally points and wished for more rally points and longer games. Nowadays, baseline grinders and counterpunchers are so prevalent that it's refreshing to see when someone chips and charges or S&V.

Pirata.
02-21-2012, 11:07 PM
No. It's terrible.

Watching some of these players try to volley is just embarrassing.

leng jai
02-21-2012, 11:08 PM
Initially I was upset but then I realised it was replaced with superior moonballing and suddenly I felt a whole lot better about it.

Ajde.

Voo de Mar
02-21-2012, 11:09 PM
Having one style that dominates makes it boring. In the early 90s I didn't like the 3-stroke rally points and wished for more rally points and longer games.

It wasn't that bad at all :)

Without nuances it looked like this:

"All-serve guys": Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Rosset
Serve and volleyers: Edberg, Becker, Stich, Sampras, Forget, T.Martin, J.McEnroe
Offensive baseliners: Courier, Novacek, Korda, Agassi, W.Ferreira, Lendl
Grinders: Chang, Bruguera, Gustafsson, C.Costa, Muster, Chesnokov, Krickstein

IMO it was quite balanced and entertaining.

bouncer7
02-21-2012, 11:09 PM
No, it's awful. I'm not even a fan of it but it would be nice to have a wide variation of players now. Also sucks that 4 of the top 5 are defensive baseliners now to be fair too.

just go and watch some german futures, there are a lot of diversity on that level of competition :devil:
they schooled and ruined whole generations of players with Becker style of play and 1H BH
Germany, great county with not even decent player in modern tennis :worship:

bouncer7
02-21-2012, 11:15 PM
It wasn't that bad at all :)

Without nuances it looked like this:

"All-serve guys": Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Rosset
Serve and volleyers: Edberg, Becker, Stich, Sampras, Forget, T.Martin, J.McEnroe
Offensive baseliners: Courier, Novacek, Korda, Agassi, Ferreira
Grinders: Chang, Bruguera, Gustafsson, C.Costa, Muster, Chesnokov, Krickstein

IMO it was quite balanced and entertaining.

yes but capitalism ruined that cause competition has caused the production of better rackets :)

rocketassist
02-21-2012, 11:56 PM
just go and watch some german futures, there are a lot of diversity on that level of competition :devil:
they schooled and ruined whole generations of players with Becker style of play and 1H BH
Germany, great county with not even decent player in modern tennis :worship:

what do you class as modern? Stich? Haas? Kiefer?

BigJohn
02-21-2012, 11:57 PM
Variety please.

FlameOn
02-22-2012, 12:00 AM
I find a whole game based around S&V mindnumbing but as an occasional surprise tactic I don't mind it at all, in fact I welcome it. So I guess neutral.

thrust
02-22-2012, 12:02 AM
I think it's very bad because the best is diversity.

TRUE! Watching Ashe beat Connors in the 75 Wimby final is very enjoyable, and a a nice change of pace from today's game. Wimby and the USO should speed up their surfaces to what they were before, so we see more net play.

BroTree123
02-22-2012, 12:09 AM
Fuck no.

howyesno
02-22-2012, 12:12 AM
more variety would be better of course, but it is better to have game in this shape than all-serve bots of 90s. give me rafole over ivanisampras any day.

Sophocles
02-22-2012, 10:02 AM
The question is whether you are glad it is extinct, not whether you're glad it no longer dominates. That's a distinction even the denizens of MTF should be able to grasp. I can't see how it's good for any style of play to die out.

Time Violation
02-22-2012, 10:07 AM
Neutral. I wouldn't say it's extinct though; no one is going to play with wooden racquets again, that's for sure, but they could very easily speed up the courts at any time in the future.

Deathless Mortal
02-22-2012, 10:10 AM
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4739/41420449.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/41420449.jpg/)

cmoss
02-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Someone should put pressure on the organizers....

munZe konZa
02-22-2012, 10:37 AM
No, it's awful. I'm not even a fan of it but it would be nice to have a wide variation of players now. Also sucks that 4 of the top 5 are defensive baseliners now to be fair too.

Who are the top 4 "defensive baseliners" and who and what is the other one?

theKSHE
02-22-2012, 10:44 AM
Who are the top 4 "defensive baseliners" and who and what is the other one?

Hyper mega hard to find that answer.

Raige
02-22-2012, 10:46 AM
The lack of variety is horrendous as I speak on this day - the 22nd of February 2012

S/V tennis has its majestic brilliance and the going for broke style net charging gets me giddy with RAGE - nothing does it more than players risking it all in a kamikaze style of play - I absolutely love it.

But it is now almost extinct, which I hate, which is why it must remain this way. The lack of variety and grinding crapness of tennis today fill my RAGE cores - it WILL continue to be this awful and I WILL remain energized.

BigJohn
02-22-2012, 10:50 AM
Hyper mega hard to find that answer.

For some...

DorianGray7
02-22-2012, 11:09 AM
Who are the top 4 "defensive baseliners" and who and what is the other one?


Djokovic. He is the only one with variety at the moment in the top 4.

green25814
02-22-2012, 12:55 PM
There's a difference between 'all-serve' guys and S/V players. Henman and Rafter are good examples, they had good serves but what made them so exciting was their approach play and amazing reactions up at the net. Guys like philippoussis, Goran etc were less exciting but those kind of guys are still around today, Isner the best example.

When people say they miss S/V they don't want it to dominate or anything, they just want a more even field where you can see different styles of tennis clashing. Thats the real beauty of the sport. I'd compare it to boxing with an Ali/Frasier etc. Imagine how awesome watching Nadal at his height against Edberg on an oldschool Wimbledon surface would've been.

JurajCrane
02-22-2012, 01:18 PM
Djokovic. He is the only one with variety at the moment in the top 4.

:cuckoo::facepalm:

green25814
02-22-2012, 01:26 PM
Also Djokovic is a defensive baseliner you guys, the only top guy he looks like the attacker against is Nadal.

luie
02-22-2012, 01:29 PM
There are 2 aggressive players in the whole tennis history
Nadull n Novak.

nalbyfan
02-22-2012, 01:33 PM
Llodra / Stakhovsky looks pretty boring...

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-22-2012, 05:12 PM
wish for the day real tennis comes back

i dont believe it should be all s&v
or all baseline

but a combination of both

sampras early 90s-
early 2000s federer
murray (yeah really) when he used to be super agressive- absolute joy to watch

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-22-2012, 05:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDNDZ0Gsq3M


best version of federer imo

excellent at the baseline and at the net
i know he basically imploded at the majors

shame really- because had he made his breakthrough in 2002 he might have carried the s&v forward instead of abandoning it

BauerAlmeida
02-22-2012, 05:39 PM
There's a difference between 'all-serve' guys and S/V players. Henman and Rafter are good examples, they had good serves but what made them so exciting was their approach play and amazing reactions up at the net. Guys like philippoussis, Goran etc were less exciting but those kind of guys are still around today, Isner the best example.

When people say they miss S/V they don't want it to dominate or anything, they just want a more even field where you can see different styles of tennis clashing. Thats the real beauty of the sport. I'd compare it to boxing with an Ali/Frasier etc. Imagine how awesome watching Nadal at his height against Edberg on an oldschool Wimbledon surface would've been.

I agree with that. I prefer offensive baseliners, but it's good to have some variety.

But I think Isner groundstrokes are not bad at all.

Pirata.
02-22-2012, 06:49 PM
Djokovic. He is the only one with variety at the moment in the top 4.

:facepalm:

munZe konZa
02-22-2012, 07:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDNDZ0Gsq3M


best version of federer imo

excellent at the baseline and at the net
i know he basically imploded at the majors

shame really- because had he made his breakthrough in 2002 he might have carried the s&v forward instead of abandoning it

I love it when people post highlights which means they have nothing to say . Most of those highlights don't show 90% of rest of the game that was utter garbage. It's also easy to be aggressive when you know that the other guy can't hurt you.

samanosuke
02-22-2012, 07:21 PM
I love it when people post highlights which means they have nothing to say . Most of those highlights don't show 90% of rest of the game that was utter garbage. It's also easy to be aggressive when you know that the other guy can't hurt you.

then you should post just highlights

munZe konZa
02-22-2012, 07:24 PM
Also Djokovic is a defensive baseliner you guys, the only top guy he looks like the attacker against is Nadal.

2 handed backhand is offensive and one handed BH is defensive in case you don't know

munZe konZa
02-22-2012, 07:27 PM
then you should post just highlights

Did someone ask you something ?

samanosuke
02-22-2012, 07:30 PM
People think that popular sentence " your tennis knowledge could cover a post stamp " is an allegoric, it's more like hyperbole

DrJules
02-22-2012, 07:34 PM
Not good for tennis.

Slice Winner
02-22-2012, 07:55 PM
2 handed backhand is offensive and one handed BH is defensive in case you don't know

If we're talking topspin, then you're wrong.

It's harder to defend and easier to attack with 1 handed topspin.
It's easier to defend (more consistent) and harder to attack (less power) with 2 handed topspin.

Admittedly 1 handers tend to slice more, which is usually used defensively.

Slice Winner
02-22-2012, 07:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDNDZ0Gsq3M


best version of federer imo

excellent at the baseline and at the net
i know he basically imploded at the majors

shame really- because had he made his breakthrough in 2002 he might have carried the s&v forward instead of abandoning it

Some sexy tennis there.

emotion
02-22-2012, 08:38 PM
You know, I kinda like baseliners better but now I find myself rooting for Lopez, Stepanek, Petzschner, Llodra and Mayer just because they are the last- and only Llodra does nothing else- against players I prefer (I like Melzer anyhow)

leng jai
02-22-2012, 08:47 PM
2 handed backhand is offensive and one handed BH is defensive in case you don't know

MTF's collective IQ halves everytime you post.

Ajde.

BigJohn
02-22-2012, 09:21 PM
2 handed backhand is offensive and one handed BH is defensive in case you don't know

:hearts: :semi: :worship:

A MunZe quality post.

fast_clay
02-22-2012, 09:25 PM
what is old is new again... and, it will be that way...

defensive and counterattacking baseline tennis today has been pushed to a high level, and unless new players are happy just to sit back and make a living in the top 50 or grow a third lung then that won't change...

to take a slice of the pie at the very top in today's game, you're either gonna have to fight fire with fire and grow that 3rd lung... or, make your game dynamic and full of anti-rhythm... this of course will include many forays to the net both behind the serve and during general play - and it should not be forgotten: sharp, sublime world class volleys...

the lost arts of attacking take longer to groom and are almost forgotten, and the path of least resistance to bankrolling your career is no doubt to stalk your opponent for hours from the baseline... so unless you wanna run a marathon every match, then high level attacking play must come back...

DorianGray7
02-22-2012, 09:30 PM
what is old is new again... and, it will be that way...

defensive and counterattacking baseline tennis today has been pushed to a high level, and unless new players are happy just to sit back and make a living in the top 50 or grow a third lung then that won't change...

to take a slice of the pie at the very top in today's game, you're either gonna have to fight fire with fire and grow that 3rd lung... or, make your game dynamic and full of anti-rhythm... this of course will include many forays to the net both behind the serve and during general play - and it should not be forgotten: sharp, sublime world class volleys...

the lost arts of attacking take longer to groom and are almost forgotten, and the path of least resistance to bankrolling your career is no doubt to stalk your opponent for hours from the baseline... so unless you wanna run a marathon every match, then high level attacking play must come back...

um dude... pently of players tried to do this. Taylor Dent, Roger Federer, Mika Llodra... and all failed. Racquets are too good now and courts are too slow - there isn't even a grass season anymore and S&V has almost 0% margin for error.

Llodra is probably the best volleyer on tour, having won 3 doubles grand slams but even he is rank 50-something. He is actually the only S&V in the top 200. :sad:

DorianGray7
02-22-2012, 09:31 PM
That said anyone who saw Llodra-Roger's best boyhood friend Chiudinelli had a real treat.

Pure serve & volley done right. Really enjoyed it.

leng jai
02-22-2012, 09:34 PM
um dude... pently of players tried to do this. Taylor Dent, Roger Federer, Mika Llodra... and all failed. Racquets are too good now and courts are too slow - there isn't even a grass season anymore and S&V has almost 0% margin for error.

Llodra is probably the best volleyer on tour, having won 3 doubles grand slams but even he is rank 50-something. He is actually the only S&V in the top 200. :sad:

Rogie's failure of a career is the final nail in the coffin for attacking tennis thats for sure.

RIP.

Ajde.

Sunset of Age
02-22-2012, 09:59 PM
Rogie's failure of a career is the final nail in the coffin for attacking tennis thats for sure.

RIP.

Ajde.

+1. :haha:

Ajde.

fast_clay
02-22-2012, 09:59 PM
um dude... pently of players tried to do this. Taylor Dent, Roger Federer, Mika Llodra... and all failed. Racquets are too good now and courts are too slow - there isn't even a grass season anymore and S&V has almost 0% margin for error.

Llodra is probably the best volleyer on tour, having won 3 doubles grand slams but even he is rank 50-something. He is actually the only S&V in the top 200. :sad:

your examples, excluding federer, are D-Grade attackers when compared with the likes of mcenroe, edberg, becker, rafter and sampras... federer only opted out of the full court press due to sound defence, and perhaps the greatest forehand of all time - so why wouldn't he abandon attacking when he can point end at the back, behind a superior service...

llodra, stepanek, dent... all D-Grade...

thanks for posting

leng jai
02-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Hass = A+

Ajde,

DorianGray7
02-22-2012, 11:23 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/sports/tennis/04llodra.html

Great NYTimes article on Llodra.:worship:

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
02-23-2012, 02:11 AM
I love it when people post highlights which means they have nothing to say . Most of those highlights don't show 90% of rest of the game that was utter garbage. It's also easy to be aggressive when you know that the other guy can't hurt you.

highlights of guga vs federer on clay and you think neither man could hurt someone from the baseline?

that game was not garbage, as you put it- it showcased all of federer's game and in the 2nd set all of guga's

the highlights were just a taste of how wonderfull that match was

actually i do have something more to say

its almost become mtf fact to say that 1998-2002 was considered some kind of transitional era- i personally consider 2002 to be the strongest year of the decade

agassi was at his peak
hewitt was amazing
nalbandian too
safin dominated the ao- only to get drunk before the final
federer showcased his true all court game
haas even more so- knocking federer out of the ao- haas's all court game was amazing

the surfaces stilll played different enough to allow sampras to win the us open with s&v

best match of the year? possibly the federer hewitt semi final at the tmc-

best display of all court federer i ever saw- sadly the loss probably put him off attacking the net ever again- and helped fashion him into the baseline attacking monster he became

BigJohn
02-23-2012, 02:29 AM
It is a shame this poll is not public.

munZe konZa
02-23-2012, 03:01 AM
Rogie's failure of a career is the final nail in the coffin for attacking tennis thats for sure.

RIP.

Ajde.

So Federer is an "attacking player" whatever that is despite a slice being his main shot by far?
Or are you trying to make yourself feel better since your comedy act is wearing thin.

Hewitt =Legend
02-23-2012, 03:14 AM
:facepalm:

Ajde.

Alex999
02-23-2012, 03:36 AM
this whole Ajde thing is killing me, lol. you guys are crazy. anyway, S&V will not go away but it's simply too easy for a good baseliner to win a point if the other player tries to serve and voley all the time. I still don't understand this big deal about S&V really. nostalgia. I find tennis much more interesting nowadays than back then in "S&W' era.

AJDE, LOL

Jamoz
02-23-2012, 03:40 AM
this whole Ajde thing is killing me, lol. you guys are crazy. anyway, S&V will not go away but it's simply too easy for a good baseliner to win a point if the other player tries to serve and voley all the time. I still don't understand this big deal about S&V really. nostalgia. I find tennis much more interesting nowadays than back then in "S&W' era.

AJDE, LOL

Ajde+Vamos und Bamos!! :angel:

leng jai
02-23-2012, 03:41 AM
So Federer is an "attacking player" whatever that is despite a slice being his main shot by far?
Or are you trying to make yourself feel better since your comedy act is wearing thin.

The average posting level of Noletards has undoubtedly peaked with this gem.

Ajde

Hewitt =Legend
02-23-2012, 03:44 AM
I've never been more proud to count myself as a Noletard.

Ajde.

Sophocles
02-23-2012, 10:11 AM
munZe konZa for the ACC.

Ajde.

Vida
02-23-2012, 10:27 AM
leave munzekonza alone.

BigJohn
02-23-2012, 11:06 AM
leave munzekonza alone.

For once I agree.

Ajmo.

Farenhajt
02-23-2012, 11:07 AM
It's good as it is now. As a spectator, I really enjoy long exchanges with high percentage of quality shots, where I can go "wow" even 5-6 times during a point. Those emotional spikes make my bonds with the game tighter. Tennis was REALLY boring in the time when you couldn't utter the "w" in "wow" before the point was over.

Technique over excitement? Not for me.

Hewitt =Legend
02-23-2012, 11:18 AM
I could watch Nole play a wall for the rest of my life.

Ajde.

tripwires
02-23-2012, 11:37 AM
So Federer is an "attacking player" whatever that is despite a slice being his main shot by far?
Or are you trying to make yourself feel better since your comedy act is wearing thin.

Are you seriously trying to say that Fed's not an attacking player? What the fuck are you smoking mate? Then again, I guess you wouldn't be able to spot an attacking player even if your life depended on it considering the words in bold. His slice, his main shot by far? Seriously? Are you so blinded by your tardism that you don't even realise you're talking out of your ass?

munZe konZa for the ACC.

Ajde.

Fucking THIS.

Hewitt =Legend
02-23-2012, 11:41 AM
FedGimp's main shot is clearly the backhand shank.

Ajde.

tripwires
02-23-2012, 11:44 AM
Why did you undermine my serious post? That was the first time in weeks that I posted something serious in GM.

Hewitt =Legend
02-23-2012, 11:58 AM
I am being serious to :confused:

bogan confused :confused:

Ajde.

Branimir
02-23-2012, 12:15 PM
I wish it comes back so people can realize how boring S&V really is.

Slice Winner
02-23-2012, 02:21 PM
I wish it comes back so people can realize how boring S&V really is.

Yeah man, this match was a total borefest.

mzMxtvmojY0

Branimir
02-23-2012, 04:15 PM
Yeah man, this match was a total borefest.

mzMxtvmojY0

The only reason those highlights are fun is the commentator.

zvezda_1991
02-23-2012, 04:24 PM
i grew up trying to emulate McEnore....i'm a lefty and i tried everything from the serve to trying to remember his footwork as he approached the net. if i studied in school as much or as hard as i studied him i would have my PhD in Physics today. Miss the days of wooden racquets and strings that actually popped when one swung as hard as he could

Super Djoker
02-23-2012, 04:28 PM
It all adds to variety in the game, so i would like to see more serve and volley ! too much thought and we would get no decent rallies just people wining service points easy or people screwin up a volley! you need to have a big serve to serve and volley there are a few big servers out there none volley , that i can think of, (you need to realise with the modern game with the courts being slowed down and with a lot of players having good passing shots serve and volley is basically suicide) I would like to see a serve and volleyer but i can,t see anyone coming threw with it !

Slice Winner
02-23-2012, 04:33 PM
Nice to see Llodra into the quarters of Marseille. His opponent will be either Olivetti or Fish.
Serve and volley isn't extinct just yet :)

ZaZoo)
02-23-2012, 05:16 PM
Yeah man, this match was a total borefest.

mzMxtvmojY0

Imagine Nole playing s&v there as well and yeah, it's pretty much a snoozefest.

Slice Winner
02-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Imagine Nole playing s&v there as well and yeah, it's pretty much a snoozefest.

That's the point most of us have been making.
I don't think a lot of people want everyone S&Ving, but more than 3 out of the top 100 would be nice.
What makes the match interesting is the clash of styles. S&V versus baseliner. It's actually nice to see Nole come to net too - he has good reach and reflexes.

Remember who won that tournament (despite it being a very fast surface). Soderling beat Monfils in the final - baseliners. Semis only featured one S&V.... but if there was one S&V in the semis of most HC/grass tournaments, I think things would be much more interesting to watch.

All S&v would be boring. Only having one style is the problem, it's not that baseline tennis bores us. It's that having ONLY baseline tennis gets very repetitive.

Voo de Mar
02-23-2012, 09:34 PM
The S&V isn't done yet. Olivetti who has probably 10 years on tour ahead, didn't run to the net after the serve only once in the entire match against Fish today.

Llodra-Olivetti - all serve & volley encounter tomorrow :)

v-money
02-23-2012, 09:41 PM
The S&V isn't done yet. Olivetti who has probably 10 years on tour ahead, didn't run to the net after the serve only once in the entire match against Fish today.

Llodra-Olivetti - all serve & volley encounter tomorrow :)

That's impressive. Probably even a higher ratio than Karlovic would have in a 3 set match.

Even though I don't like players who are very serve dependent, I somehow like S&V players like Lopez, Llodra, and Karlovic. I really couldn't tell with Olivetti because Fish was so awful but he may be able to become a Karlovic like player. His ground game looks like it sucks and it may be hard to improve that, but if he can be good at serve and volley and just block some returns back and throw in some chip and charge (which he did do today), he can be fairly effective.

Voo de Mar
02-23-2012, 09:48 PM
That's impressive. Probably even a higher ratio than Karlovic would have in a 3 set match.


Based on today's match I can say that his 2nd serve is better than Karlovic's but worse than Isner's. Because is better than Karlovic's he can go to the net constantly after the 2nd serve which is an interesting prospect in the future.

fast_clay
02-24-2012, 07:51 PM
i actually don't know why you don't see more of it... i kinda thought we would be now... the easiest way to bring supreme baseline ball striker back to the field is to carve it up to the net and smother the match in shit with no rhythm... tour is pretty much ripe for it in my opinion...

Har-Tru
02-24-2012, 07:56 PM
Fuck no.

Har-Tru
02-24-2012, 07:56 PM
i actually don't know why you don't see more of it... i kinda thought we would be now... the easiest way to bring supreme baseline ball striker back to the field is to carve it up to the net and smother the match in shit with no rhythm... tour is pretty much ripe for it in my opinion...

Agreed.

fast_clay
03-17-2012, 01:50 AM
i saw nadal do a pretty sweet serve volley play late in that 3rd set with nalbandian... very nice touch...

well done rafael nadal

DorianGray7
03-17-2012, 10:32 AM
Yeah Nadal hit a drop-volley in the air. Insanely good.

But that was like the only volley of the entire match.Djokovic and Nadal almost never comes to the net except to shake hands.

Branimir
03-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Yeah Nadal hit a drop-volley in the air. Insanely good.

But that was like the only volley of the entire match.Djokovic and Nadal almost never comes to the net except to shake hands.

That's bunch a bull. Both players come to net occasionally. Now they rarely serve and volley, but they do come to the net! Actually crappy Nole of 2012 is trying to go to the net more. It's just hard. Even players like Almagro and Andujar have skills to pass him or to send it back with so much spin that it's really hard to volley.

GOAT = Fed
03-17-2012, 11:34 AM
Maybe not serve and volleying but I think volleying and going up to the net might have to come back into the game because of how awfully slow these courts are. Players will need to come upto the net more often to end points more quickly or fall in danger of playing 4/5 hour slog fests quite often which isn't sustainable for their careers.

fast_clay
03-17-2012, 11:38 AM
Maybe not serve and volleying but I think volleying and going up to the net might have to come back into the game because of how awfully slow these courts are. Players will need to come upto the net more often to end points more quickly or fall in danger of playing 4/5 hour slog fests quite often which isn't sustainable for their careers.

yes, cyclical law says that if you do not wish to run a marathon then you must add an element of risk to your game... a game based on balls and risk is not unheard of... and was once the dominant feature on tour at various times, times that 94% of posters on this site cannot remember...

Serve&Volley01
05-16-2012, 11:37 PM
Llodra's match against Del Po shows why S&V is extinct. :(

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Serve and Volley on consistent basis has no place in the modern game. It should be used a surprise way to catch your opponent off guard to win points, not mindlessly rush the net even after second serves. I am glad S&V is dead so real tennis fans can enjoy real tennis.

J99
05-17-2012, 12:18 AM
I think it's very bad because the best is diversity.

In the abscence of this style other new styles have evolved.

Mr. Oracle
05-17-2012, 02:31 AM
Save tennis by bringing back authentic and official wood raquets. Yes, I am serious.

Mr. Oracle
05-17-2012, 02:43 AM
Serve and Volley on consistent basis has no place in the modern game. It should be used a surprise way to catch your opponent off guard to win points, not mindlessly rush the net even after second serves. I am glad S&V is dead so real tennis fans can enjoy real tennis.

Ah Son, let me get you up to speed. When a server approaches the net to volley, and is passed, he will learn to volley less. A player who places a serve nicely and follows up with a magical and finessed volley is employing a carefully choreographed cluster f$c#! of offensive prowess. I remember when the game was SOOO much more complex when players used to serve and volley (mindless servebots and baseline clowns needed not apply). The good 'ole days they were. Every time Mcenroe rushed to the net there was anticipation about what would happen. It's like the "smell the glove" scene from spinal tap: "here's my great serve, and now watch me bitchslap you with my volley!" A great returner, endowed with sublime groundstrokes would say: "oh no you didn't just approach the net again! eat this beyotch!" And so this game of foreplay would be played.

Real men serve and volley, just ask Navratilova!

Mountaindewslave
05-17-2012, 02:50 AM
serve and volley is exciting and I miss it because it actually took some guts to risk it and run into the net...

players these days are too fearful too attempt and in turn a myth has risen on tour that serve and volleying is not very possible with the level of competetance that players exhibit from the baseline / the slowness o the surfaces....

it adds an exciting dynamic to the game, hopefully it returns, hopefully players get more guts because it is a technique that can pay dividends even in today's game if anyone would really try it out. it's a shame the only people who will try it are giants these days who can't hold their ground from the baseline.

miss it sorely

Orange Wombat
05-17-2012, 02:53 AM
I don't like Serve&Volley because I thought the points were too short. However, I would like to see more people take more risks and come up to the net more frequently (just not after serves), kind of like Tsonga and Fed's all court style. Long baseline rallies are boring. However all-court rallies that are long are more exciting.

These players I can name use S&V regularily: Llodra, Kubot, Karlovic. That is all.
On occasion Tsonga, Lopez, Fed, Benneteau serve and volley.
Nole and Rafa do it once a match for surprise.

BTW, has anyone else noticed Ferrer's added more and more volley to his game recently? :scratch: Bringing back the old generation, maybe...

emotion
05-17-2012, 02:59 AM
I don't like Serve&Volley because I thought the points were too short. However, I would like to see more people take more risks and come up to the net more frequently (just not after serves), kind of like Tsonga and Fed's all court style. Long baseline rallies are boring. However all-court rallies that are long are more exciting.

These players I can name use S&V regularily: Llodra, Kubot, Karlovic. That is all.
On occasion Tsonga, Lopez, Fed, Benneteau serve and volley.
Nole and Rafa do it once a match for surprise.

BTW, has anyone else noticed Ferrer's added more and more volley to his game recently? :scratch: Bringing back the old generation, maybe...
Ferrer is doing a great job of declining gracefully. He is slowing for sure, but he has slowly gotten more aggressive and for now, he's got offense and defense at the correct balance to remain a top player while no longer having the speed that got him to #4

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 03:03 AM
Ah Son, let me get you up to speed. When a server approaches the net to volley, and is passed, he will learn to volley less. A player who places a serve nicely and follows up with a magical and finessed volley is employing a carefully choreographed cluster f$c#! of offensive prowess. I remember when the game was SOOO much more complex when players used to serve and volley (mindless servebots and baseline clowns needed not apply). The good 'ole days they were. Every time Mcenroe rushed to the net there was anticipation about what would happen. It's like the "smell the glove" scene from spinal tap: "here's my great serve, and now watch me bitchslap you with my volley!" A great returner, endowed with sublime groundstrokes would say: "oh no you didn't just approach the net again! eat this beyotch!" And so this game of foreplay would be played.

Real men serve and volley, just ask Navratilova!

I don't like S&V because players who utilized such style were one dimensional.

McEnroe tried to S&V on clay, instead of actually developing a proper forehand and learning how to rally. That's why Lendl beat him in RG final. S&V gets exposed in rallies.

Your last point is funny. Navratilova who rushed the net at every opportunity was bested by Steffi... an all around player who could change her tactics at will instead of suicide runs to the net even if it wasn't working. :lol:

Mr. Oracle
05-17-2012, 04:00 AM
Your last point is funny. Navratilova who rushed the net at every opportunity was bested by Steffi... an all around player who could change her tactics at will instead of suicide runs to the net even if it wasn't working. :lol:

Never intended to switch to WTA but let me take a stab at it.

How come you didn't mention how Martina tormented Chris Everet for a full decade with S&V?

After the budding superstar and nubile steffi came on the scene and exposed the aging navratilova's game (she was getting as slow as molasses), Monica seles restored the natural order and reminded us about classic tennis (she matured and blossomed into a true all around player, steffi never was). She schooled steffi with a lethal serve and volley match at the 1999 AO. Serve and volleyer defeats baseliner. There are many examples such as this. Mac had borg's number. Sampras was magical etc.

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 04:06 AM
^^^ Troll of the highest order.

Seles was a mindless ballbasher with poor serve. Remind me again what her H2H with Steffi was.

Remind me again what the Wimbleon 1992 final score line was.

Not bad a for a baseliner, eh? Lol

Mr. Oracle
05-17-2012, 04:22 AM
^^^ Troll of the highest order.

Seles was a mindless ballbasher with poor serve. Remind me again what her H2H with Steffi was.

Remind me again what the Wimbleon 1992 final score line was.

Not bad a for a baseliner, eh? Lol

Why am I trolling? I simply explained how monica adapted her game to defeat a more physically gifted and athletic player.

Also Mac and Sampras did well did they not? You're a little young to even remember those matches so maybe you're trolling? I saw all those matches LIVE son. How many youtube clips have you seen?

tripwires
05-17-2012, 04:57 AM
Why am I trolling? I simply explained how monica adapted her game to defeat a more physically gifted and athletic player.

Also Mac and Sampras did well did they not? You're a little young to even remember those matches so maybe you're trolling? I saw all those matches LIVE son. How many youtube clips have you seen?

:haha: :worship: Always a good day when T-Doc gets owned.

Clay Death
05-17-2012, 05:05 AM
who says its dead?

any fool can rush to the net as many times as he wishes.

go right ahead and charge that net at will.

Mercury
05-17-2012, 05:52 AM
who says its dead?

any fool can rush to the net as many times as he wishes.

go right ahead and charge that net at will.
Yes but while it was once the most common tennis tactic it's now rare to see anyone use it. It's so that rare when I see Tsonga run to the net after a successful first serve I almost think "wtf!".

The most common tactic today has to be defensive back line ball bashing. Which is better to watch? Depends on which players were talking about. In any case a good compromise is what I'd want. Someone who can ball bash just as well as Nadal and Djoko and also uses diversity with S&V will be the most entertaining IMHO.

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 06:05 AM
:haha: :worship: Always a good day when T-Doc gets owned.

I don't see how I got owned considering Steffi has 6RG titles over Seles' 3... She adapted much better and was master of all surfaces. Seles couldn't even win one wimby. Lol.

Clownpras and MugEnroe are in the same boat: tried to win RG with S&V. Completely one dimensional.

tripwires
05-17-2012, 06:09 AM
I don't see how I got owned considering Steffi has 6RG titles over Seles' 3... She adapted much better and was master of all surfaces. Seles couldn't even win one wimby. Lol.

Clownpras and MugEnroe are in the same boat: tried to win RG with S&V. Completely one dimensional.

I'd like to know how many YouTube clips you've seen. :lol:

Clownpras. :haha: You make me laugh. :hearts:

SelvenluvJo
05-17-2012, 06:12 AM
Usually I hate serve&volley players, because these players always give tough matchup to my favorites.But in the very ending I think I like this play style ,it makes tennis various.

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 06:19 AM
I'd like to know how many YouTube clips you've seen. :lol:

Clownpras. :haha: You make me laugh. :hearts:

Sampras RG finals: 0

Bageled by Clownfelnikov as well :haha:

Serve got exposed on slow courts every year.

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 06:20 AM
Feelsbadman to see s/v becoming extinct. Although it is annoying to see 1/2 shot rallies all the time, as is the case with s/v, it is equally as frustrating to see 15-20 shot rallies quite frequently. A balance needs to be found so that both styles can be employed effectively.

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 06:23 AM
Sampras RG finals: 0

Bageled by Clownfelnikov as well :haha:

Serve got exposed on slow courts every year.

So please remind me since when did RG performances become the sole criterion by which you determine a player's career by.

Thanks and I await to hear your response.

And please TDoc....

....

Stay safe.

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 06:28 AM
Its not about RG, it's about adapting to your weak surface and prevailing there. Sampras was a clay clown who tried to S&V his way to title despite the fact that it was obviously a fail tactic.

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 06:30 AM
So does that also hold true for Nadal as he didn't adopt in Madrid last week and reguarly falters at indoor events? Using your logic he shalt be renamed clowndal, right?

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 06:36 AM
Nadal : career gs
Sampras : no career GS

On the big stage Nadal brought out his best, Sampras didn't

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 06:41 AM
Nadal : career gs
Sampras : no career GS

On the big stage Nadal brought out his best, Sampras didn't

So you are using RG performances as the sole criterion for judging a players career? Because you just said a moment ago that you were calling out Mcenroe and Samprass because they failed to adopt, yet I just countered your argument by using you God and you've gone back to using RG performances.

And lettuce beef real tea here, winning a career GS has lost it's aura since all the courts play at pretty much the same speed.

Also u aware?

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 06:51 AM
Seles is a Mindless ball basher, Its Clownpras not Sampras, and Clownfelnikov.

This TrollDoctor is having a Climax before getting banned.

TigerTim
05-17-2012, 07:01 AM
When was the last time a serve volley even made it deep into a grand slam? Such a shame it's died.

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 07:03 AM
So you are using RG performances as the sole criterion for judging a players career? Because you just said a moment ago that you were calling out Mcenroe and Samprass because they failed to adopt, yet I just countered your argument by using you God and you've gone back to using RG performances.

And lettuce beef real tea here, winning a career GS has lost it's aura since all the courts play at pretty much the same speed.

Also u aware?

Lol what?

I am calling out the so called all time greats failure to adapt to a particular surface. In both of their cases it happens to be RG. If Sampras won RG 10 times but didn't win wimby or USO, I would present exactly the same argument.

Career GS has lost no meaning. Only clueless nostalgia tards think otherwise. If it's so easy, why have only 2 players (both all time greats) managed to do it? :wavey:

orangehat
05-17-2012, 07:06 AM
Lol what?

I am calling out the so called all time greats failure to adapt to a particular surface. In both of their cases it happens to be RG. If Sampras won RG 10 times but didn't win wimby or USO, I would present exactly the same argument.

Career GS has lost no meaning. Only clueless nostalgia tards think otherwise. If it's so easy, why have only 2 players (both all time greats) managed to do it? :wavey:

:facepalm: of course TsD thinks tennis only started in 2006.

I really wouldn't need to say anything else but just consider this.

It was an accomplishment 10 years ago to be a millionaire, much less so today.
Just because you achieve the same thing does not mean the accomplishment is the same anymore :wavey:

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 07:10 AM
Being a millionaire isn't the same anymore due to inflation.

If anything winning a CGS is much harder and more prestigious today because this is one of the strongest eras ever.

Dougie
05-17-2012, 07:20 AM
Lol what?

I am calling out the so called all time greats failure to adapt to a particular surface. In both of their cases it happens to be RG. If Sampras won RG 10 times but didn't win wimby or USO, I would present exactly the same argument.

Career GS has lost no meaning. Only clueless nostalgia tards think otherwise. If it's so easy, why have only 2 players (both all time greats) managed to do it? :wavey:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Allez
05-17-2012, 07:41 AM
They ought to speed up everything after the French Open. That will get all the serve and volleyers crawling out of the woodwork. Might even tempt Mario Ancic out of retirement. Mark Philippoussis too :yeah:

orangehat
05-17-2012, 07:43 AM
Being a millionaire isn't the same anymore due to inflation.

If anything winning a CGS is much harder and more prestigious today because this is one of the strongest eras ever.

And if you don't think surface homogenization is analogous to inflation then :facepalm:

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 08:45 AM
Nadal : career gs
Sampras : no career GS

On the big stage Nadal brought out his best, Sampras didn't


There is a difference. Sampras won most of the matches on the basis of his talent and getting the better of his opponent by his superior game. But Nadal won by plain Moonballing and taking advantage of the Slow courts and numerous other gamesmanship.

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 08:48 AM
Lol what?

I am calling out the so called all time greats failure to adapt to a particular surface. In both of their cases it happens to be RG. If Sampras won RG 10 times but didn't win wimby or USO, I would present exactly the same argument.

Career GS has lost no meaning. Only clueless nostalgia tards think otherwise. If it's so easy, why have only 2 players (both all time greats) managed to do it? :wavey:


They failed to adapt to the surface to an extend. But that is a lesser crime than your brain which is failing to adapt to intelligence.

ossie
05-17-2012, 09:21 AM
nostalgiatards want to believe that is the so called homogenization of the courts or players not being able to play s&v is the reason this style of play is dead when in fact its disappearance is just a natural part of the evolution of tennis. players are not willing to play serve and volley because they know it won't work on the superior players of this day and age, ask lodra. a complete baseliner with a decent return will always beat the best serve and volleyer in any era under any circumstances. now being the fat slobs you are who have never picked up a racket i don't expect you to understand what professional top players have understood for so many years now but at least have some respect for the game and its players, shut the fuck up.

seljanin
05-17-2012, 09:47 AM
nostalgiatards want to believe that is the so called homogenization of the courts or players not being able to play s&v is the reason this style of play is dead when in fact its disappearance is just a natural part of the evolution of tennis. players are not willing to play serve and volley because they know it won't work on the superior players of this day and age, ask lodra. a complete baseliner with a decent return will always beat the best serve and volleyer in any era under any circumstances. now being the fat slobs you are who have never picked up a racket i don't expect you to understand what professional top players have understood for so many years now but at least have some respect for the game and its players, shut the fuck up.

LOL, look who's talking :lol:

Around 90% of your comments are "always great to see [insert player name] losing" or "good to see the trash been taken out", or something similar to that. Not to add that you are always discrediting the players of the past and trash-talking every player you dislike, which actually is most of the tour. And you out of all people are talking about respect for the game and its players :superlol:

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 10:01 AM
There is a difference. Sampras won most of the matches on the basis of his talent and getting the better of his opponent by his superior game. But Nadal won by plain Moonballing and taking advantage of the Slow courts and numerous other gamesmanship.

:baby:

This "moonballer's" title count is higher than your IQ level.

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 10:27 AM
:baby:

This "moonballer's" title count is higher than your IQ level.


Its the way he plays. Absolutely nothing to do with the titles Nadal wins. But very few like him. On the other hand Sampras has left a legacy.And it doesn have to do with the RG he didnt win.Nobody cares. Nadal can win as much RG he wins but he will never be popular as other champions. Its somewhat like your life. Where you were never were popular no matter how much you tried.:superlol:

Topspindoctor
05-17-2012, 10:37 AM
Its the way he plays. Absolutely nothing to do with the titles Nadal wins. But very few like him. On the other hand Sampras has left a legacy.And it doesn have to do with the RG he didnt win.Nobody cares. Nadal can win as much RG he wins but he will never be popular as other champions. Its somewhat like your life. Where you were never were popular no matter how much you tried.:superlol:

I don't give a shit how disliked Nadal is or how popular Clownpras was. I am not obsessed with player "legacies" like some fat nerd living vicariously through his fav player and posting crap about popularity contests on forum. I just enjoy his style of play on my favorite surface. So just sit back and enjoy him own the crap out of whatever scrubs you support :wavey:

Serve&Volley01
05-17-2012, 10:42 AM
How on earth did this thread bring out all the trolls? :facepalm:

MTF :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Serve&Volley01
05-17-2012, 10:45 AM
nostalgiatards want to believe that is the so called homogenization of the courts or players not being able to play s&v is the reason this style of play is dead when in fact its disappearance is just a natural part of the evolution of tennis. players are not willing to play serve and volley because they know it won't work on the superior players of this day and age, ask lodra. a complete baseliner with a decent return will always beat the best serve and volleyer in any era under any circumstances. now being the fat slobs you are who have never picked up a racket i don't expect you to understand what professional top players have understood for so many years now but at least have some respect for the game and its players, shut the fuck up.

Dude Llodra frequently beats a lot of baseline players and almost beat your god Del Po in R1. Federer used S&V in set 2 against Raonic to win that tough match.

"In any era?" Are you serious? So why didn't any baseliner easily own Rafter, Sampras, Edberg in the 80s and 90s?

This is such a biased troll post :facepalm:

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 12:13 PM
nostalgiatards want to believe that is the so called homogenization of the courts or players not being able to play s&v is the reason this style of play is dead when in fact its disappearance is just a natural part of the evolution of tennis. players are not willing to play serve and volley because they know it won't work on the superior players of this day and age, ask lodra. a complete baseliner with a decent return will always beat the best serve and volleyer in any era under any circumstances. now being the fat slobs you are who have never picked up a racket i don't expect you to understand what professional top players have understood for so many years now but at least have some respect for the game and its players, shut the fuck up.

Saw it was an Ossie post.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--ekR6jG4Iwk/Tw4zvKN4RCI/AAAAAAAAAn0/IX-VBCUOUvs/s1600/didnt-read-lol-chicken-gif.gif

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 12:57 PM
I am not Glad that S&V is extinct. It was an ingenuous part of the Modern Tennis. Some of the play that Edberg,Patrick Rafter,Boris becker showed were just out of the World. They should restore the Wimbeldon courts to the pace they were once. They would serve out two purpose. They will bring the Fast tennis and the players who can play back to the fore and secondly they can keep out Slow Court Mugs like Nadal out of the place where they did not belong anytime. Go back to Monte Carlo or Barcelona or whatever and take your Mug Supporters with you.

GOAT = Fed
05-17-2012, 01:00 PM
They should restore the Wimbeldon courts to the pace they were once.

Good luck with your future goals of convincing Nadal and Djokovic to play Wimbledon.

Shinoj
05-17-2012, 01:09 PM
Good luck with your future goals of convincing Nadal and Djokovic to play Wimbledon.


Well,Nobody complains how Slow Monte Carlo,Barcelona or RG is then why should anyone complain how fast the courts are. Part of the Game.

Serve&Volley01
05-17-2012, 01:23 PM
Wimbledon needs to use Queen's Club grass.

Grass also needs a ATP 1000. Please make it

2 weeks before Queens: Newport ATP 250
week before Queens: Halle ATP 250
Queens ATP 1000
1 week break
Wimbledon

Then we'll get a 6 week grass court season on fast courts.

TigerTim
05-17-2012, 01:35 PM
Wimbledon needs to use Queen's Club grass.

Grass also needs a ATP 1000. Please make it

2 weeks before Queens: Newport ATP 250
week before Queens: Halle ATP 250
Queens ATP 1000
1 week break
Wimbledon

Then we'll get a 6 week grass court season on fast courts.

YES PLEASE :worship:

Hian-GOAT
05-17-2012, 01:54 PM
Yes :hysteric: So many passing winners for almost no reason :spit:

orangehat
05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
nostalgiatards want to believe that is the so called homogenization of the courts or players not being able to play s&v is the reason this style of play is dead when in fact its disappearance is just a natural part of the evolution of tennis. players are not willing to play serve and volley because they know it won't work on the superior players of this day and age, ask lodra. a complete baseliner with a decent return will always beat the best serve and volleyer in any era under any circumstances. now being the fat slobs you are who have never picked up a racket i don't expect you to understand what professional top players have understood for so many years now but at least have some respect for the game and its players, shut the fuck up.

coming from a del pot tard :rolls:

Mr. Oracle
05-17-2012, 05:43 PM
Bring back the donnay and dunlop wood racquets. This will slow the game down, and more players will develop the stones to approach the net. The current reality demonstrates that technological "progress" is bad for the game. It is not progress. In hockey, goalie pads are limited to a certain size, in football, you can't you stick 'em to improve your grip. In tennis, there are no rules for designing equipment. Modern racquets generate too much speed and power--get rid of them.

fast_clay
05-19-2012, 01:01 AM
the slowing of the courts on average is like bringing a gun to a national park, clearing out all the eagles on site and expecting the rodents not to multiply...

Action Jackson
05-19-2012, 01:52 AM
People taking ossie and topspindoctor seriously, come on.

Fedex
05-19-2012, 12:22 PM
Nadal : career gs
Sampras : no career GS

On the big stage Nadal brought out his best, Sampras didn't

You have to account for the recent homogenization of the court surfaces.

finishingmove
05-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Yes, S&V is for mugs

Sunset of Age
05-19-2012, 12:40 PM
the slowing of the courts on average is like bringing a gun to a national park, clearing out all the eagles on site and expecting the rodents not to multiply...

A rather colourful illustration to the current situation in tennis. :D

FairWeatherFan
05-19-2012, 02:52 PM
Serve and volley takes much more skill and talent than playing at the baseline. It's easy enough to be a dirtballing mug like Nadal, who can now succeed on every surface all year round due to the biased slowing of the courts by the ATP. I and many others am sick of watching 24/7 dull dirtballing rubbish and brainless hardcourt ball-bashing.

Looner
05-19-2012, 04:10 PM
Wimbledon needs to use Queen's Club grass.

Grass also needs a ATP 1000. Please make it

2 weeks before Queens: Newport ATP 250
week before Queens: Halle ATP 250
Queens ATP 1000
1 week break
Wimbledon

Then we'll get a 6 week grass court season on fast courts.

And how do you propose this to happen again? Move Wimbledon to the end of July and RG to the beginning of May. Not happening, son.

TigerTim
05-19-2012, 05:11 PM
And how do you propose this to happen again? Move Wimbledon to the end of July and RG to the beginning of May. Not happening, son.

There may be some scope to move RG if they move the location of the tourney. Ultimately though I think a significant rejigging of the ATP calendar will be in order to deal with the extended grass court season.

Serve&Volley01
11-02-2012, 10:37 PM
Serve and Volley on consistent basis has no place in the modern game. It should be used a surprise way to catch your opponent off guard to win points, not mindlessly rush the net even after second serves. I am glad S&V is dead so real tennis fans can enjoy real tennis.

Dedicated to the haters.

:worship:

Oh wait. He is a hater. :mad:

Qampunen
03-28-2013, 10:38 AM
I've been thinking lately about the decline in the serve and volley game over the last few years and was trying to think of a proper list of serve and volleyers left in today's game. I can only think of Michael Llodra and Ivan Navarro. Anyone able to think of any others? :confused:

Burrow
03-28-2013, 11:08 AM
Feliciano Lopez is probably the closest thing to those players in the top flight.

asmazif
03-28-2013, 11:19 AM
yeh, was going to mention Lalo. Mahut, Kubot, Steps, Ram, Stakh further down the rankings also.

HumbleTennisFan
03-28-2013, 11:23 AM
Depends...you talking about players who their main game is just serve volley?Then yeah i agree with Llodra,Feliciano Lopez,maybe Radek Stepanek too,but there are other good volley players that just don't use it as much like Tsonga,Berdich.Federer also volleys very good,Raonic too.

Newcomer
03-28-2013, 11:25 AM
Grannolers now often playing S&V. Paire, Brands, Fish, Dodig and Sijsling sometimes.

Burrow
03-28-2013, 11:27 AM
yeh, was going to mention Lalo. Mahut, Kubot, Steps, Ram, Stakh further down the rankings also.

Never realised Stepanek is ranked 43, I thought he was slightly outside the top 50. He and Llodra are by far my favourite net rushers.

Burrow
03-28-2013, 11:29 AM
Depends...you talking about players who their main game is just serve volley?Then yeah i agree with Llodra,Feliciano Lopez,maybe Radek Stepanek too,but there are other good volley players that just don't use it as much like Tsonga,Berdich.Federer also volleys very good,Raonic too.

Berdych does not have good touch at the net. Maybe that excellent crosscourt punch volley against Falla is still in your head. I've never seen Berdych play such a technically sound volley.

Tsonga's volleys are far overrated. He can play good touch volleys but his drive volleys are inconsistent at best.

Dougie
03-28-2013, 11:44 AM
Berdych does not have good touch at the net. Maybe that excellent crosscourt punch volley against Falla is still in your head. I've never seen Berdych play such a technically sound volley.

Tsonga's volleys are far overrated. He can play good touch volleys but his drive volleys are inconsistent at best.

Drive volley is a shot that many players overuse, and it doesn´t really have anything to do with net game, really.

leng jai
03-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Pretty sure by drive volley he meant punch volley. Tsonga is decent at best at them but his flashy drop volleys give the illusion that he has an excellent net game.

No idea how Berdych gets mentioned as one of the better volleyers around.

Nole fan
03-28-2013, 11:50 AM
Only men who are not real men play S&V.

leng jai
03-28-2013, 11:54 AM
Only men who are not real men play S&V.

Real men win 2/10 net points in a set and use two fists for their backhand.

Dougie
03-28-2013, 12:01 PM
Pretty sure by drive volley he meant punch volley. Tsonga is decent at best at them but his flashy drop volleys give the illusion that he has an excellent net game.

No idea how Berdych gets mentioned as one of the better volleyers around.

Me neither. Now that I think of it, I actually have no idea what his volleys are like, probably because he doesn´t really come to the net that often. So how he is mentioned in a thread about s&v is beyond me.

atennisfan
03-28-2013, 12:04 PM
Real men win 2/10 net points in a set and use two fists for their backhand.


sounds very girly.

Burrow
03-28-2013, 12:04 PM
Drive volley is a shot that many players overuse, and it doesn´t really have anything to do with net game, really.

I forgot that they refer to the swing volley also as a "drive volley". I'm not referring to that at all. I'm referring to a standard punch volley.

Dougie
03-28-2013, 12:08 PM
I forgot that they refer to the swing volley also as a "drive volley". I'm not referring to that at all. I'm referring to a standard punch volley.

:yeah:Cool. And I agree on what you said about Tsonga´s volleys.

motorhead
03-28-2013, 12:19 PM
people mentioning Raonic as a good volleyer :lol::lol:
also kubot, just because he plays many doubles doesn't meane he's a good S&Ver

Berdych :facepalm:

asmazif
03-28-2013, 12:57 PM
also kubot, just because he plays many doubles doesn't meane he's a good S&Ver

never said he was good (or bad or mediocre or supernatural) at it ;) just that he er... does it, quite a bit.

Nole fan
03-28-2013, 01:20 PM
Real men win 2/10 net points in a set and use two fists for their backhand.

Not Nole, if that's what you're implying. His net percentage is pretty high. Baseline tennis is for real men. ;)

born_on_clay
03-28-2013, 02:04 PM
I'm not. I really enjoy watchig Llodra :sad:

retister
03-28-2013, 02:14 PM
Neutral. I am a S&V player, mostly because my groundies are crappy, so I appreciate solid ground game more.

Sri
03-28-2013, 02:49 PM
S7V is fun. It's aggressive and it means players are showing intent to win.

Baseline tennis hopes you can out last the other guy.

I like aggressive tennis, but I can understand and appreciate top players who value consistency more. Especially if they are not in peak form on these slow ass courts.

Lugburz
03-28-2013, 02:50 PM
bring it back, tennis needs variety these days.

TigerTim
03-28-2013, 02:51 PM
A disgusting loss, s&v was one of the best parts of the game

TigerTim
03-28-2013, 02:53 PM
Only men who are not real men play S&V.

It seems to me most players today lack the finess and skill to pull it off....

MichaelKrep
03-28-2013, 03:03 PM
Bring it back. In fact, make it obligatory! Code violation if the server does not attempt it at least once per game!

In all seriousness, though, I love it. Wish we could see more of it.

motorhead
03-28-2013, 11:49 PM
never said he was good (or bad or mediocre or supernatural) at it ;) just that he er... does it, quite a bit.

my bad. yes he does come a lot at the net, sometimes his approaches are laughable but he's no baseliner so I guess he can just try to improve the S&V

Lugburz
03-29-2013, 02:04 AM
since volley is extinct now, lets get rid of serve as well.

Sarcasm aside, glad the result of this poll is like this.

Topspindoctor
03-29-2013, 02:07 AM
since volley is extinct now, lets get rid of serve as well.


Getting rid of the serve is a bit extreme, I would be happy with removal of second serve. Why should a player be rewarded with another serve if they miss?




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motorhead
03-29-2013, 02:11 AM
seems legit

MrPlateperson
03-29-2013, 02:13 AM
If only serve bots would just, dissapear.

johnny tsunami
03-29-2013, 08:40 AM
im not glad that it is going into extinction, but id much rather the game be dominated by baseliners than S&V. S&V tennis is not that fun to watch, which is why agassi was such a hit. In my perfect world, it'd be about 70% baseliners 30% S&V.

Marcoo
03-29-2013, 09:27 AM
I think It's just because nowadays the stereotype of a good sportsman is to have muscles and be strong, just like Rafa. If you have those you cannot play serve and volley ;) I think it's good cause now tennis is a little more spectacular, which cause and increase in the popularity of the sport. On the other hand, we lost the great technique, i mean now it's just power while back than it was all about the technique :)

Dark Knight
03-29-2013, 09:30 AM
I wish there were a few more S/V players like Llodra on tour along with few more grass tournaments. :confused:

August
03-29-2013, 11:20 AM
Getting rid of the serve is a bit extreme, I would be happy with removal of second serve. Why should a player be rewarded with another serve if they miss?




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At least 2nd serve is good for time violating players so that they don't immediately lose that point.

Lopez
03-29-2013, 02:47 PM
Not Nole, if that's what you're implying. His net percentage is pretty high. Baseline tennis is for real men. ;)

He did suck versus Haas though :facepalm:

Slice Winner
03-29-2013, 02:54 PM
Real men win 2/10 net points in a set and use two fists for their backhand.

Beautiful <3

Sombrerero loco
03-29-2013, 03:12 PM
dont worry. kontinen the chosen one will bring it back :hearts:

Orka_n
03-29-2013, 04:07 PM
Getting rid of the serve is a bit extreme, I would be happy with removal of second serve. Why should a player be rewarded with another serve if they miss?...

You are aware that removing the 2nd serve would change the dynamic of the game completely. It would no longer become a feat to break serve as players would slow down their first delivery in order to keep it in court.

In short, ATP would become like WTA.

On topic, Serve & Volley may be the most beautiful of gamestyles - though I don't expect Nole/Nadulltards to realize that since they have barely ever seen S&V

nolesfan2011
03-29-2013, 04:20 PM
I like baseline tennis fine, but I'm not glad that S&V has been almost totally removed from the game, variety in general is good for tennis and S&V tennis can be quite fun and enjoyable to watch when it is at its best.

I mean one of my favorite matches in recent memory was Dent vs Navarro 09 US Open, both guys were serve and volleyers and they played into a 5th set tiebreak that Dent eventually won, both guys went into the net almost every point, it was totally epic.

I also like the Rochus brothers and such, so I really do hope S&V can make a comeback at some point, though with the power and speed so many top players have at the baseline it is simply a hard strategy to play.

Burrow
03-29-2013, 04:22 PM
Not Nole, if that's what you're implying. His net percentage is pretty high. Baseline tennis is for real men. ;)

Because he generally only comes in to finish points with easy put aways.

Slice Winner
03-29-2013, 04:50 PM
Because he generally only comes in to finish points with easy put aways.

Also because net points includes approach shots etc.
Nole probably hits about 2 standard volleys on average per match.

GSMnadal
03-29-2013, 05:00 PM
Yes, the game has moved on. It's good to use it as a suprise tactic from time to time. Other than that, no.

Kyle_Johansen
03-29-2013, 06:46 PM
Tennis needs serve and volley back.

ProdigyEng
03-29-2013, 06:47 PM
Tennis needs serve and volley back.

Yeah points ended extremely quickly is what Tennis needs...

Kyle_Johansen
03-29-2013, 06:51 PM
Yeah points ended extremely quickly is what Tennis needs...

Tennis needs faster courts and lighter balls back.

Serve and volley at its finest is much better than watching 15 shot baseline rallies.

Topspindoctor
03-29-2013, 06:56 PM
Serve and volley at its finest is much better than watching 15 shot baseline rallies.

In your opinion. Most people despised mindless net rushing and serve fests of the 90s


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Kyle_Johansen
03-29-2013, 07:00 PM
In your opinion. Most people despised mindless net rushing and serve fests of the 90s


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Mindless? Sampras, Rafter, and other elite net rushers never did so mindlessly. There was always a purpose.

retister
03-29-2013, 07:10 PM
In your opinion. Most people despised mindless net rushing and serve fests of the 90s


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I believe I read it somewhere a while ago that one Wimbly final in late 80s or early 90s lasted only 9 minutes of effective play :eek:

nazzac
03-29-2013, 07:12 PM
To answer the question, no.

I would like to see more Serve & Volley players so we get more variety on tour. The only problem is, that surfaces are so slow in modern tennis, that young players won't Serve and Volley because it doesn't work well enough.

If there is an increase in court speed so there is more varied courts on tour then we would see more S&V players in the future.

Out of the top 10 players exactly zero are true serve and Vollyers. Tsonga is the closest we've got to that inside the top 10 atm

ProdigyEng
03-29-2013, 07:15 PM
Tennis needs faster courts and lighter balls back.

Serve and volley at its finest is much better than watching 15 shot baseline rallies.

Bs. You only want faster courts because Fed does.

August
03-29-2013, 07:16 PM
Yeah points ended extremely quickly is what Tennis needs...
At least Bernie Ecclestone thinks like that.

Kyle_Johansen
03-29-2013, 07:20 PM
Bs. You only want faster courts because Fed does.

I want faster courts because it promotes aggressive tennis and it's more enjoyable to watch. Besides, that quicker courts would help the lower ranked guys have more chances of doing well in tournaments because the game wouldn't be so much about fitness and endurance which the top 5 players in the world excel at, which is part of the reason why they are so consistent the past few years.

Kyle_Johansen
03-29-2013, 07:21 PM
To answer the question, no.

I would like to see more Serve & Volley players so we get more variety on tour. The only problem is, that surfaces are so slow in modern tennis, that young players won't Serve and Volley because it doesn't work well enough.

If there is an increase in court speed so there is more varied courts on tour then we would see more S&V players in the future.

Out of the top 10 players exactly zero are true serve and Vollyers. Tsonga is the closest we've got to that inside the top 10 atm

Federer was a pure serve and volleyer before 2002 and he can still do it better than anyone in the top 10.

nazzac
03-29-2013, 07:26 PM
Federer was a pure serve and volleyer before 2002 and he can still do it better than anyone in the top 10.

He was, he he isn't anymore. Federer stays at the baseline at lot more these days, although he does s&v at times.

And the point wasn't who can do it best, it was who does it the most frequently within the top 10, and that is Tsonga atm.

leng jai
03-29-2013, 07:26 PM
Federer was a pure serve and volleyer before 2002 and he can still do it better than anyone in the top 10.

No he wasn't. The comparison is more like how Haas plays on grass now.

ProdigyEng
03-29-2013, 07:35 PM
I want faster courts because it promotes aggressive tennis and it's more enjoyable to watch. Besides, that quicker courts would help the lower ranked guys have more chances of doing well in tournaments because the game wouldn't be so much about fitness and endurance which the top 5 players in the world excel at, which is part of the reason why they are so consistent the past few years.

Medium courts provide the best Tennis. Fast courts all the time would be just as shit as slow courts all the time.

Orka_n
03-29-2013, 07:39 PM
Yeah points ended extremely quickly is what Tennis needs...Actually yes, that IS what tennis needs. Adding a few fast surfaces would mean players wouldn't get tired after just a few tournaments, there would be less injuries and we could also bring back best of 5 finals in Masters 1000s. There is also a chance we would start seeing a variety of playing styles on the tour again, which would add more entertainment.
Bs. You only want faster courts because Fed does.I wouldn't expect a playertard like you to understand, but there are some of us who simply appreciate beautiful tennis technique, touch and on-court grace regardless of who's producing it.

Also priceless seeing Tdoc calling S&V mindless. Like Rob Koenig said, the current top 100 is extremely one dimensional. And what is pushing and moonballing if not mindless :lol: