Has the Year End Championship(WTF) lost some of its charm post-2000? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Has the Year End Championship(WTF) lost some of its charm post-2000?

Start da Game
11-28-2011, 02:50 PM
there were times when YEC was treated with way more respect and given far more importance.......those battles of becker, sampras, ivanisevic, lendl, borg etc. certainly helped this tournament gain a meaningful existence.......

homogenization of surfaces and disappearing variety in the last 7 or 8 years have certainly shifted the sport of tennis a lot more towards baseline duels......

the game has become physically a lot more demanding and the match-lengths have started to increase.......that increased the average time spent by players in matches through out the year and there was a significant amount of increase in workload noticed......

all that lead to a lot more wear and tear and players walking into the WTF in hopeless condition with all sorts of injuries and stuff......

it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" pointing out the stupidity of its timing......

another reason contributing to the reducing significance of the tournament is that there's no constant place for the event......the nomadic tournament is moved every once in 3 years to a different city......

all this is giving an impression that the players don't really give too much importance to this event and play it only for the heck of it and for some loose cash at the end of the season......it was too obvious in the 2011 edition......

only those players who saved some energy for this event and less spent through out the year seem to be doing well in this namesake season end event......

not only discuss this topic but also feel free to think of solutions to get this tournament back to where it once was in players' minds......

tripwires
11-28-2011, 02:53 PM
there were times when YEC was treated with way more respect and given far more importance.......those battles of becker, sampras, ivanisevic, lendl, borg etc. certainly helped this tournament gain a meaningful existence.......

homogenization of surfaces and disappearing variety in the last 7 or 8 years have certainly shifted the sport of tennis a lot more towards baseline duels......

the game has become physically a lot more demanding and the match-lengths have started to increase.......that increased the average time spent by players in matches through out the year and there was a significant amount of increase in workload noticed......

all that lead to a lot more wear and tear and players walking into the WTF in hopeless condition with all sorts of injuries and stuff......

it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" pointing out the stupidity of its timing......

another reason contributing to the reducing significance of the tournament is that there's no constant place for the event......the nomadic tournament is moved every once in 3 years to a different city......

all this is giving an impression that the players don't really give too much importance to this event and play it only for the heck of it and for some loose cash at the end of the season......it was too obvious in the 2011 edition......

only those players who saved some energy for this event and less spent through out the year seem to be doing well in this namesake season end event......

not only discuss this topic but also feel free to think of solutions to get this tournament back to where it once was in players' minds......

"Widely" meaning a total of one, meaning you?

magnoliaewan
11-28-2011, 02:53 PM
:rolleyes:

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 03:03 PM
Start Da Coin. :haha:

Hey guess what? 6 > 5 and there ain't shit you can do about it. Bitter much?

Start da Game
11-28-2011, 03:08 PM
Start Da Coin. :haha:

Hey guess what? 6 > 5 and there ain't shit you can do about it. Bitter much?

shut it, i din't mean to make it a comparison thread......if i wanted to, i would have gladly said,

5 best of 5 sets WTF titles in better competition >>> 6 most of which best of 3 sets titles(chicken titles) in weak competition with worn out players

i wanted to collect some suggestions for the improvement of the tournament......

samanosuke
11-28-2011, 03:10 PM
question for mods . how many this kind of threads you have to open to get an infraction for forum disruptions ?

Corey Feldman
11-28-2011, 03:11 PM
enough clown

just coz Nadal has gone downhill and is as bad as the Indian cricket team, dont aggrivate everyone else

r3d_d3v1l_
11-28-2011, 03:12 PM
I was suspecting that this was too much logical for start da fail and it all became clear with the jab to Federer´s win.

Get over it nutter.

rickcastle
11-28-2011, 03:13 PM
:rolleyes:

/thread

BigJohn
11-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Another quality thread from General Whankar.

Sapeod
11-28-2011, 03:20 PM
SdG, you and other Nadaltards only hate WTF because Nadal sucks in it and gets owned. Stop moaning about it and just accept that your hero will never get his hands on that trophy.

Start da Game
11-28-2011, 03:21 PM
such a sour bunch, it's almost ridiculous, shit......i have been criticizing this damn event ever since the end of us open and i am accused of being sour and whatnot......with this kind of oversensitive nonsense, i am disinterested and demotivated to enter GM these days......

go ahead you ultra sensitive clowns, cry with mods and destroy every single thread which is capable of generating innovative ideas and healthy discussions......

mystic ice cube
11-28-2011, 03:22 PM
:facepalm: Oh ffs...

barbadosan
11-28-2011, 03:23 PM
it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals"

didn't realise you were physically so rotund that you could refer to your unique observation as "widely remarked"

Luinir
11-28-2011, 03:24 PM
i downloaded some matches from 90's YEC, will watch them and will say about the truth. wait for it.

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 03:26 PM
enough clown

just coz Nadal has gone downhill and is as bad as the Indian cricket team, dont aggrivate everyone else

Hey, come on. They can still win a series - at home - against the powerhouse that is the West Indies.

sexybeast
11-28-2011, 03:30 PM
It lost its charm already after 96 when Becker retired. All WTF since have not really lived up to the old days, but same thing happened to Wimbledon in 2000s when serve and volley died.

Anyway, you gotta love TMC 2005.

barbadosan
11-28-2011, 03:36 PM
Hey, come on. They can still win a series - at home - against the powerhouse that is the West Indies.

Ouch Sophocles! Did you have to?! :smash:

fsoica
11-28-2011, 03:36 PM
Hah Ha Ha ..SdG at it again...this guy is a treat..roger made me happy last night and SdG is making me laugh tonight...Tks!

And now, on topic...u spoke about the times of lendl or borg. Tell me , pls, when did u start watching WTF? Judging by your behaviour, I highly doubt u'v lived to witness the times of borg, jmac and lendl.

So this tells me this is a hater-troller thread...

Put your hand on the Holly Bible and tell me i am wrong :)

fsoica
11-28-2011, 03:39 PM
and the climax of my joy was reading that you want us to propose solutions for improvememnt :) Ha Ha

I like WTF exactly like it is :)


Let the atp officials judge that by the tv market shares , audiences worldwide and by taking into account the players' opinnions.

Propose solutions to rebrand WTF ...Ha Ha Ha...

U really made my evening, u little troll :)

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 03:40 PM
Ouch Sophocles! Did you have to?! :smash:

I'm afraid I did.

fsoica
11-28-2011, 03:43 PM
5 best of 5 sets WTF titles in better competition >>> 6 most of which best of 3 sets titles(chicken titles) in weak competition with worn out players


Roger played 10 WTFs: 2002-2011

2002-2007, included, had BO5 finals. Roger played 5 of those finals.
only the last 2 finals he played (and won, in 3 both times), were BO3.

Another big fail of the Rafa-Tard...

HKz
11-28-2011, 03:46 PM
Any tournament Nadal hasn't won is a shit tournament by the logic of Failerko, tard da fail, Clay Fail, etc.

Had Nadal won at least one World Tour Final title, this thread would have never been made. I still remember how those Rafatards used to berate the US Open crowd for being anti-Federer and how the surface and tournament is shit, yet once Nadal won the title, it was suddenly a true Grand Slam event again and that everyone else on the tour are mugs.

fsoica
11-28-2011, 03:52 PM
A nicely put question, my little SdG, would have been smth like that:

What if the WTF would have been played in the beginning of the season, not at the end of it?

How many titles would have Fed/Rafa had?

Luinir
11-28-2011, 03:53 PM
Any tournament Nadal hasn't won is a shit tournament by the logic of Failerko, tard da fail, Clay Fail, etc.

Had Nadal won at least one World Tour Final title, this thread would have never been made. I still remember how those Rafatards used to berate the US Open crowd for being anti-Federer and how the surface and tournament is shit, yet once Nadal won the title, it was suddenly a true Grand Slam event again and that everyone else on the tour are mugs.

tmc should be one season indoor hard, other season indoor clay... then it would be fair and i can consider that tournament as a real deal.

Eden
11-28-2011, 03:55 PM
there were times when YEC was treated with way more respect and given far more importance......

Where do you get the impression from that the YEC is getting treated disrespectful apart from MTF?

it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" pointing out the stupidity of its timing......

Which players/coaches/journalists/experts judge the tournament like this?


another reason contributing to the reducing significance of the tournament is that there's no constant place for the event......the nomadic tournament is moved every once in 3 years to a different city......

I'm pretty sure you know what's the reason that the tournament has moved within the years....


all this is giving an impression that the players don't really give too much importance to this event and play it only for the heck of it and for some loose cash at the end of the season......it was too obvious in the 2011 edition......

Ever thought that the players find it so important to play here that they try to enter the tournament even though they are not 100% fit?

For some players it might be the once in a lifetime opportunity to play amongst the 8 best players of the season.


only those players who saved some energy for this event and less spent through out the year seem to be doing well in this namesake season end event......

How was a certain Roger Federer then able to win this event in the past even though he played a full schedule and won several GS titles on the way?


not only discuss this topic but also feel free to think of solutions to get this tournament back to where it once was in players' minds......

The tournament is exactly where it always was. It's the tournament with the best players of the season. You'll get some surprising winners there (Corretja comes to mind, also Nalbandian or Davydenko).

You'll always get exciting matches - not just in the past. The Federer-Nalbandian final of 2005 comes to mind, also the Federer-Murray RR match in 2008 where Murray gave it all even though he was already qualified for the SF and was spent then for the SF against Davydenko. Just one year ago we saw the classic Murray-Nadal match in the SF.

It's understandable that you are disappointed that Rafa didn't qualify for the SF this year but that doesn't mean that this tournament is crap. I'm pretty sure Rafa would be the first one to talk about the importance of the tournament and that it is one of his remaining goals to win here one day. Even if he never manages to get a title here it won't take anything away from his achievements.

HKz
11-28-2011, 04:04 PM
A nicely put question, my little SdG would have been smth like that:

What if the WTF would have been played in the beginning of the season, not at the end of it?

How many titles would have Fed/Rafa had?

Still a similar amount, I'm pretty sure. Federer has had much better starts to seasons in general than Nadal. Won't make a difference either way. I think the timing of tournaments is a bullshit excuse anyways, time is continuous. Just because it is at the end of the year doesn't mean anything, time is still moving, it isn't like time stops at the end of every year and neither do their practices, exhibition matches and practice matches. Sure they there are no official tournaments for like 2 months, but as I just said, it isn't like they sit on their ass during this period too.

Fact is Novak, Rafael and Roger all played a similar amount of matches by the end of the year, yet Federer seemed by far the freshest even at his age. Obviously there are a few subjective things to take into calculation, but still I thought Federer is the 30 year old..?

helvet empire
11-28-2011, 04:07 PM
shut it, i din't mean to make it a comparison thread......if i wanted to, i would have gladly said,

5 best of 5 sets WTF titles in better competition >>> 6 most of which best of 3 sets titles(chicken titles) in weak competition with worn out players

i wanted to collect some suggestions for the improvement of the tournament......
2/6= most of? you fail at math (among many other things)

Saberq
11-28-2011, 04:09 PM
Still a similar amount, I'm pretty sure. Federer has had much better starts to seasons in general than Nadal. Won't make a difference either way. I think the timing of tournaments is a bullshit excuse anyways, time is continuous. Just because it is at the end of the year doesn't mean anything, time is still moving, it isn't like time stops at the end of every year and neither do their practices, exhibition matches and practice matches. Sure they there are no official tournaments for like 2 months, but as I just said, it isn't like they sit on their ass during this period too.

Fact is Novak, Rafael and Roger all played a similar amount of matches by the end of the year, yet Federer seemed by far the freshest even at his age. Obviously there are a few subjective things to take into calculation, but still I thought Federer is the 30 year old..?

you fail at important things ......Fed didnt have deep runs in tournaments or not as much as Novak and Rafa who played only finals

Midnight Ninja
11-28-2011, 04:12 PM
Still a similar amount, I'm pretty sure. Federer has had much better starts to seasons in general than Nadal. Won't make a difference either way. I think the timing of tournaments is a bullshit excuse anyways, time is continuous. Just because it is at the end of the year doesn't mean anything, time is still moving, it isn't like time stops at the end of every year and neither do their practices, exhibition matches and practice matches. Sure they there are no official tournaments for like 2 months, but as I just said, it isn't like they sit on their ass during this period too.

Fact is Novak, Rafael and Roger all played a similar amount of matches by the end of the year, yet Federer seemed by far the freshest even at his age. Obviously there are a few subjective things to take into calculation, but still I thought Federer is the 30 year old..?

:worship: The bolded part. I never understood the entire contention about "End of the Year".

I would understand the issue had it been a grueling schedule but as it stands now people just either skip the Asian swing or the Euro swing to get about 6 weeks of rest either way making it a mini end of year.

In fact the top players start playing in the first week of January making the End of Year rest period less than what you would get between Wimbledon and the US Series or USO and subsequent.

HKz
11-28-2011, 04:12 PM
tmc should be one season indoor hard, other season indoor clay... then it would be fair and i can consider that tournament as a real deal.

Let's make all the tournaments slower by that logic every now and then. That is such a stupid fucking suggestion. The slams are slow enough clown, there are so many players that would benefit (and not benefit) from the slams getting faster surfaces, so don't be a fool and suggestion something as terrible as that.

Either way, at least the current surface at the WTF finals is not even fast. It still bounces rather high for an indoor HC and balls don't fly through the court like Cincinnati for example. Also, this is clearly no prevention. What about Guga and Corretja?

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:15 PM
i am not saying "we should make every surface slower". indoor hard should be faster, we both agree on this but there should be clay YEC, too. some top 8 players could be clay material and they are deserving to play on their best surfaces, don't they?

samanosuke
11-28-2011, 04:15 PM
you fail at important things ......Fed didnt have deep runs in tournaments or not as much as Novak and Rafa who played only finals

this year Fed played the same number of matches like nole and 4 matches less than nadal

HKz
11-28-2011, 04:17 PM
you fail at important things ......Fed didnt have deep runs in tournaments or not as much as Novak and Rafa who played only finals

Matches are matches bro. Sure they are finals, but at the end of the day, they are just another match with more mental on the line. Still doesn't mean anything.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:17 PM
this year Fed played the same number of matches like nole and 4 matches less than nadal

gotta agree with that... federer can stay much fresher than rafa and djoker at the end of the season. that's the only reason he's still winning these YEC's. he deserves credit for his fluent tennis.

HKz
11-28-2011, 04:19 PM
i am not saying "we should make every surface slower". indoor hard should be faster, we both agree on this but there should be clay YEC, too. some top 8 players could be clay material and they are deserving to play on their best surfaces, don't they?

This is 2012 bro, not 1992. Your logic would make much more sense in the 90s, not in an era where players play a similar all-round style on similar surface speeds. Once again, I must point out Guga and Corretja. You do realize they have won WTF titles right in periods where there was a difference in styles and surface speeds.

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 04:21 PM
i am not saying "we should make every surface slower". indoor hard should be faster, we both agree on this but there should be clay YEC, too. some top 8 players could be clay material and they are deserving to play on their best surfaces, don't they?

Okay, I'll agree to that if you agree to hold the French Open on indoor carpet every other year.

Eden
11-28-2011, 04:22 PM
you fail at important things ......Fed didnt have deep runs in tournaments or not as much as Novak and Rafa who played only finals

Roger was able to win the WTF back in the past even though he had deep runs in tournaments throughout the year.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:22 PM
so i am saying that, let's make indoor hard REALLY fast but let's play on clay too. especially this logic should be for whole season. i mean look at some hard courts like indian wells and miami, they are ironically slow. but look at madrid and rg. they are even faster than some hardcourts, lol. atp should stop this clowning.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:24 PM
Okay, I'll agree to that if you agree to hold the French Open on indoor carpet every other year.

this is not the same thing at all. look, this tournament's name "Year end championship" you are qualifying to this tournament for your effort in the whole season and whole season includes CLAY.

EddieNero
11-28-2011, 04:24 PM
Fart da Brain trying to undervalue one of the most prestigious tournaments on the tour only because Baldal has never won it NID.
Get a life, tard.

BigJohn
11-28-2011, 04:24 PM
Okay, I'll agree to that if you agree to hold the French Open on indoor carpet every other year.

That is a great idea. Some of the top players could do well on carpet and should be allowed to play indoors on carpet at RG. Makes sense.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:25 PM
lol... i see that fedtards not in their holes anymore since their god won some titles. i am curious about where they will be by 2012 mid-season. :D

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 04:27 PM
so i am saying that, let's make indoor hard REALLY fast but let's play on clay too. especially this logic should be for whole season. i mean look at some hard courts like indian wells and miami, they are ironically slow. but look at madrid and rg. they are even faster than some hardcourts, lol. atp should stop this clowning.

One of the relatively few traditional features of the year-end Masters is that it is played indoors (preferably on a fast surface). It is the tour's premier indoor event, and "indoors" in tennis means 1. a roof & 2. a carpet or hard court.

samanosuke
11-28-2011, 04:27 PM
lol... i see that fedtards not in their holes anymore since their god won some titles. i am curious about where they will be by 2012 mid-season. :D

they will be waiting for November and WTF

alter ego
11-28-2011, 04:32 PM
Obvioulsly the nadulltarads moderators won't ban this pathetic excuse of a troll.

HKz
11-28-2011, 04:32 PM
lol... i see that fedtards not in their holes anymore since their god won some titles. i am curious about where they will be by 2012 mid-season. :D

Always has to come to that when you're backed into the wall after your "logic" is pointed out as being shit.

Once again these are the facts you have to deal with.

1. Players get a decent break after the US Open if they please.
2. Players play a similar style in this generation.
3. Surfaces are very similar.
4. The WTF surface isn't even that fast.
5. Even when the diversity of player styles/surfaces was evident, Guga and Corretja won the year end championship.

shadows
11-28-2011, 04:32 PM
You're bitter, your attempted point is a massive stretch, and to top it off the reasoning isn't even particularly good.

However, the YEC did perhaps lose some of its charm post-07.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:33 PM
nadal can win this tournament even on ultra fast surface but he just doesn't care.

Luinir
11-28-2011, 04:34 PM
You're bitter, your attempted point is a massive stretch, and to top it off the reasoning isn't even particularly good.

However, the YEC did perhaps lose some of its charm post-07.

yes... arena is great but fans are really bad. atmosphere just isn't enough. hopefully atp doesn't renew london's contract and istanbul gets this tournament, then i can cheer for nadal REALLY HARDLY. :D

fsoica
11-28-2011, 04:34 PM
lol... i see that fedtards not in their holes anymore since their god won some titles. i am curious about where they will be by 2012 mid-season. :D

I don't see myself as a tard, but let's play it your way...I will (at least i want to) be in london, watching highlights of roger winning wimby and expecting him to win the olympics....btw...how fast can they regrow the grass in wimby? will it be brand new at the beginning of the games?

r2473
11-28-2011, 06:04 PM
The OP is right. WTF is a tank fest for the top players. Obviously Roger was trying and just got beat this year, but rafa, nole, and murray? Not so much. Yes, Murray was hurt. Would he have been as hurt if this were a Wimbledon? Impossible question to answer of course, but players tend to play with more pain and injuries when a slam is on the line.

For the most part WTF is a pretty poor event.

nsidhan
11-28-2011, 06:05 PM
With the YEC played at the O2 in London I think it is starting to regain some of the charm it lost in Shanghai and Houston.

It sucked in Houston when it was being played in some mattress owners (Mattress Mac?) tennis courts.

SetSampras
11-28-2011, 06:16 PM
Of course it has.. And I think a big reason for this is because the game has become more brutal with slower courts, combined with strict baseline play, and a defensive minded game.. This just totally destroys the bodies of the guys who haven't learned that offensive style or don't incorporate it into their games and who have played the most tennis for the year.

Shit.. The top 3 players in the world this year were too injured or burned out by the YEC. When has that ever happened? Nadal played more offensive minded last year so he was ready for the YEC physically.. This year he kind of resorted back to his 2007 style of game and as a result, his body broke down. Nole's body broke down.. Hell Murray's broke down there.

Its been ROTTEN for the year end championship these last few years because of it. So unless you have an offensive style of game like Roger and who shortens time between points, does less running around, and ends points quicker, its tough on the guy.

Do to the state of the game.. Im all for getting rid of it period. No one is healthy enough at the top to play it anymore by that time, and no one really puts it at the top of their "to do list" anymore. It's lost appeal over the years.

Shirogane
11-28-2011, 06:31 PM
I want a fast court and best-of-five finals back. A slam is a slam is a slam (is a slam), but it's still a cool event, definitely the next best thing to win.

green25814
11-28-2011, 06:43 PM
tmc should be one season indoor hard, other season indoor clay... then it would be fair and i can consider that tournament as a real deal.

This makes ZERO sense. Are all slams unfair since they take place on the same surface? :scratch:

DrJules
11-28-2011, 06:48 PM
A thread created to discredit Federer by a poster who would be one of the favourites to win the ACC if he had not withdrawn.

Its timing is so obvious.

Pirata.
11-28-2011, 06:49 PM
yes... arena is great but fans are really bad. atmosphere just isn't enough.

That's not what people who attended this year have said.

rocketassist
11-28-2011, 06:58 PM
So it's WIDELY called the World Toast Finals. Quick, let Marcus Buckland know...

rocketassist
11-28-2011, 06:59 PM
With the YEC played at the O2 in London I think it is starting to regain some of the charm it lost in Shanghai and Houston.

It sucked in Houston when it was being played in some mattress owners (Mattress Mac?) tennis courts.

Houston and Shanghai were both very good. 03-05 were great tournaments.

Fuser59
11-28-2011, 07:06 PM
maybe it has - I used to love MASTERS in Frankfurt and Lisbon that one year...Hannover & Houston sucked...so form me it just depends on the venue and the country...
Maybe certain people would like to have it moved to Monte Carlo...that would 'For Sure' make it more important-VERI VERI IMPORTANT :P

Mordra
11-28-2011, 07:18 PM
A better question:

Has the MTF Year End ACC lost some of its charm this year after Start da Game withdrew?

green25814
11-28-2011, 07:23 PM
Btw guys, this year WTF had a bigger attendance than ANY slam.

Yeah, really losing significance. :o

MatchFederer
11-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Btw guys, this year WTF had a bigger attendance than ANY slam.

Yeah, really losing significance. :o

Umm, what?

Bad Religion
11-28-2011, 07:57 PM
9 years without a good final says it all (Hewitt - Ferrero)

ps: Fatbaldian vs Frauderer in 2005 was shit

tennis2tennis
11-28-2011, 08:03 PM
If rafa had won instead of roger yesterday what are the odds SdG would have posted this drivel? Honestly

BigJohn
11-28-2011, 08:04 PM
So it's WIDELY called the World Toast Finals. Quick, let Marcus Buckland know...

Perhaps Fart da Coin is a fat whale, so him calling it the World Toast Finals qualifies the expression as widely used...

BigJohn
11-28-2011, 08:05 PM
If rafa had won instead of roger yesterday what are the odds SdG would have posted this drivel? Honestly

None to none.

green25814
11-28-2011, 08:07 PM
Umm, what?

More people bought tickets to the WTF final than any slam final this year.

Fact man.

Logical
11-28-2011, 08:09 PM
I agree World Tour Finals is full of shit.Mugbandian, Mugdenko, Mugwitt victories reinforce the opinion OP is sharing. World Toast finals:lol: is an apt name.Top players tire out by November and quality takes beating. I am unaware how Corretja won this title but when Kuerten won WTF used to be a great tournament.Mugprass was playing well and was owned by Guga.

Chris Kuerten
11-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Seems weird that a 30 year old doesn't seem bothered by it, maybe the younger guys are just spineless pussies :shrug:?

atennisfan
11-28-2011, 09:45 PM
NID.

Start de Fail continuous effort to downplay RF's achievements.

SdG, unless you believe ALL annual top 8 players since 2000 were mugs, including rafa?

atennisfan
11-28-2011, 09:52 PM
I agree World Tour Finals is full of shit.Mugbandian, Mugdenko, Mugwitt victories reinforce the opinion OP is sharing. World Toast finals:lol: is an apt name.Top players tire out by November and quality takes beating. I am unaware how Corretja won this title but when Kuerten won WTF used to be a great tournament.Mugprass was playing well and was owned by Guga.

So the spartan warriors like nadal and nole do not want to play full season because they oh so tired and need pedicure-manicure spa treatment to rejuvenate their aching bodies?

:rolls:

BTW, the 30 yo grampa this year played EXACTLY the same number of matches (76 matches) as the spartan warrior 25 yo nole.

If the 25 yo spartan warrior feels that the season should cut in half, then he is in the wrong business I'm afraid.

atennisfan
11-28-2011, 09:53 PM
Seems weird that a 30 year old doesn't seem bothered by it, maybe the younger guys are just spineless pussies :shrug:?

This.

atennisfan
11-28-2011, 09:55 PM
SdG, you and other Nadaltards only hate WTF because Nadal sucks in it and gets owned. Stop moaning about it and just accept that your hero will never get his hands on that trophy.

Never two sentences are more true than this.

Sophocles
11-28-2011, 11:47 PM
Of course, SetSampras thinks we should just do away with it because defensive players can't hack playing at the end of the year. And it clearly makes no sense for a Sampras fan to want attacking players to win on an indoor court. Hell no.

SetSampras
11-28-2011, 11:54 PM
Of course, SetSampras thinks we should just do away with it because defensive players can't hack playing at the end of the year. And it clearly makes no sense for a Sampras fan to want attacking players to win on an indoor court. Hell no.

Play like Nadal.. and you tell me if you can hack it by the end of the year. Hell Nole can't even hack by the end of the year the way he plays.. Imagine how Nadal must feel.

Its just one of the downfalls in the way they game has evolved into defensive oriented tennis and slow surfaces. In that respect, it is much more difficult to be fresh by the end of the year

tripwires
11-29-2011, 12:32 AM
Play like Nadal.. and you tell me if you can hack it by the end of the year. Hell Nole can't even hack by the end of the year the way he plays.. Imagine how Nadal must feel.

Its just one of the downfalls in the way they game has evolved into defensive oriented tennis and slow surfaces. In that respect, it is much more difficult to be fresh by the end of the year

And therefore we should get rid of the tournament? It's no one's fault but the player's if he chooses to play a gruelling style of tennis that leaves him with nothing for the year-end tournament. Maybe these players should play more attacking tennis instead. :shrug:

SetSampras
11-29-2011, 02:03 AM
And therefore we should get rid of the tournament? It's no one's fault but the player's if he chooses to play a gruelling style of tennis that leaves him with nothing for the year-end tournament. Maybe these players should play more attacking tennis instead. :shrug:

I don't think its ENTIRELY the player's faults. Its not their fault the ATP organizers slowed the down the courts to record snail proportions. Not their fault they had to adapt a certain way to increased racket technology which allows opponents to blast winners from 100 feet behind the baseline.. Fed is the last of the attack style players anymore really.. The guys weren't exposed to that old style

tripwires
11-29-2011, 02:11 AM
I don't think its ENTIRELY the player's faults. Its not their fault the ATP organizers slowed the down the courts to record snail proportions. Not their fault they had to adapt a certain way to increased racket technology which allows opponents to blast winners from 100 feet behind the baseline.. Fed is the last of the attack style players anymore really.. The guys weren't exposed to that old style

But some of the players (ok I really only mean one) have benefited from the slow courts which suit their styles, so in a way, it is kind of their own fault. You live and die by the sword right? I do see your point but it's also up to the players to adjust to the conditions. If they really want to win the WTF, they will find a way to do it. If they can't find a way to do it, then they'll just have to come back next year and try again. If they can't make the adjustments, then...too bad. :)

I do think the courts are too slow though. I mean, there was hardly any difference between the Wimbledon final and the USO final except the colour of the court.

Fedex
11-29-2011, 02:38 AM
Someone has an agenda.

Sri
11-29-2011, 02:50 AM
Here's a new theory ... WTF > Roland Garros :lol:

Topspindoctor
11-29-2011, 04:01 AM
Here's a new theory ... WTF > Roland Garros :lol:

You deserve to be banned for this statement, Fedtard.

Sri
11-29-2011, 04:04 AM
You deserve to be banned for this statement, Fedtard.
Pointing out the absurdity of Start the flame is a public service. I deserve medals of honor. ;-)

Nirjhor
11-29-2011, 07:06 AM
it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" pointing out the stupidity of its timing......

Ha ha.. "Widely" means only you, right SdG? :superlol: As like as almost all of you think Cricket means only Indian Cricket!

Hey, guys! We shouldn't say anything against what SdG says. Because, Start da Game = Tennis! :lol:
i wanted to collect some suggestions for the improvement of the tournament......
Yeah... he wants to collect suggestions so that he could make and improvement for the tournament.
SdG, You are the man! :worship:

Jaz
11-29-2011, 07:17 AM
Typical nonsense by Nadaltards, if he doesn't win, it's not important.

Sophocles
11-29-2011, 09:37 AM
Play like Nadal.. and you tell me if you can hack it by the end of the year. Hell Nole can't even hack by the end of the year the way he plays.. Imagine how Nadal must feel.

Its just one of the downfalls in the way they game has evolved into defensive oriented tennis and slow surfaces. In that respect, it is much more difficult to be fresh by the end of the year

So what? It's one time of year we don't get to see shit boring defensive tennis winning big tournaments. Of course I'd prefer it if we got less defensive tennis throughout the year, & so presumably would you, but complaining about slow surfaces & defensive tennis and THEN saying we should scrap the ONE big tournament where for whatever reason defensive tennis doesn't cut it - WHAT? I know you're sore about Federer taking pretty much every Sampras record, but think of the game for once.

fast_clay
11-29-2011, 11:09 AM
So what? It's one time of year we don't get to see shit boring defensive tennis winning big tournaments. Of course I'd prefer it if we got less defensive tennis throughout the year, & so presumably would you, but complaining about slow surfaces & defensive tennis and THEN saying we should scrap the ONE big tournament where for whatever reason defensive tennis doesn't cut it - WHAT? I know you're sore about Federer taking pretty much every Sampras record, but think of the game for once.

defensive tennis is both being encouraged and evolving at such a rate that pretty soon a couple of heavy tournaments is gonna gas them... and, i do blame the player and their lack of overall development for this...

it was great to see nadal and djokovic fade hard this year... that is their style... they must be punished for it in some fashion... lethargy and injury is fine by me...

dodo
11-29-2011, 12:21 PM
:heart: :heart:
SdG delivers in style once again.

Corey Feldman
11-29-2011, 04:14 PM
Here's a new theory ... WTF > Roland Garros :lol:Agree

its harder to win, put it that way

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 04:25 PM
blind breed behaving like absolute butthurt idiots.......nobody is attacking your god, clowns.......take the discussion in the right spirit and contribute if you can......

@helvel empire or something

i don't keep track of which tournaments your god wins, clown......i just don't care......2/6 may not be "mostly 3 sets finals" but still those are less than pete's 5 best of 5 sets finals......

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 04:33 PM
a casual luinir owning sophocles is the highlight of this thread......when you are playing the full season(clay and hardcourts) to qualify for WTF, it only makes sense that the tournament has to be conducted on red or green clay every alternate year......

anyway, world toast finals is hardly an important event anymore......today, it comes 20th or something when you take into account the most easiest format, toasted players and useless loose cash dangled for players to get attracted and play......still nadal and djokovic din't give a shit......

look at nadal at monetcarlo, he fights like hell for that tournament......djokovic fights like there is no tomorrow for belgrade......the davis cup, the olympics......those are the real shit......

nobody ever remembers how many toast finals borg or lendl or sampras has......i still am not sure how many pistol pete has, is it 4 or 5? somebody said 7......who cares anyway?

barbadosan
11-29-2011, 04:39 PM
Poor SdG! Leonidas' heart bleeds for thee - and weeps for your desertion at Thermopylae :rolleyes:

Corey Feldman
11-29-2011, 05:04 PM
can you imagine Fed won Monte Carlo next year

the carnage

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 05:08 PM
nadal can win this tournament even on ultra fast surface but he just doesn't care.

concurred, something which even i have been saying since so long......some clueless clowns in this very thread claimed that nadal fans dissed us open only until he won it......that's entirely wrong and i still hate us open......

i have been hating world toast finals since so long now......the tournament makes no sense particularly when the players themselves are not showing any interest in the event......

tournaments organizers are having to lure them by dangling massive loose cash, ranking points just to get the entry......such is the pathetic state of this tournament......

Everko
11-29-2011, 05:09 PM
It is a pointless tournament. It is a good idea but the end of the year every top player is hurt or very tired from the season. And its players that have had bad years that do the best in it like Federer this year

Corey Feldman
11-29-2011, 05:12 PM
:bs:

Sampras, Lendl and Becker always winning this during their prime goes against that theory... so did Guga and Hewitt when they finished #1

last year semi finals were Fed, Nadull, Nole and Muzza

so stop the nonsense.

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 05:19 PM
It is a pointless tournament. It is a good idea but the end of the year every top player is hurt or very tired from the season. And its players that have had bad years that do the best in it like Federer this year

concurred......i too buy the argument that it is a good idea to finish the season on a glittering note but it's just not happening......with increasing physical demands, us open is the real season end event......

they need to change a few things if they want to improve the indoors season......if they don't, there is simply no point in torturing top players to play these foolish events......

djokovic looked like dead man walking, murray walked into the tournament squealing in pain already......nadal left his mind in mallorca before taking the london flight......

samanosuke
11-29-2011, 05:25 PM
WTF count vol. 3

Federer - 39-7
Nadal - 9-10

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 05:30 PM
:bs:

Sampras, Lendl and Becker always winning this during their prime goes against that theory... so did Guga and Hewitt when they finished #1

last year semi finals were Fed, Nadull, Nole and Muzza

so stop the nonsense.

physical demands on the tour have increased significantly since the time of sampras, becker, lendl......you cannot deny that truth......

you speak as if reaching semis of this round robin tournament is some great achievement and is an indication that they were ready......djokovic looked like a finely baked toast in the matches that really mattered, against nadal and fed......nadal was finished by that time too, just that he was really riding on a high......soderling, ferrer, berdych all looked out of sorts......roddick looked hopeless as hell......

Corey Feldman
11-29-2011, 05:31 PM
how come Hewitt after 2 brutal years, 2001 & 2002 as number 1, could still win the TMC? his game style was just as taxing as Nadull/Nole's

are they less of a man than Rocky Hewitt?

Corey Feldman
11-29-2011, 05:34 PM
let this impress you

Hewitt 2002 Shanghai


RR: Safin 6-4, 2-6, 6-4
SF: Federer 7-5 5-7 7-5
F: Ferrero 7-5, 7-5, 2-6, 2-6, 6-4

samanosuke
11-29-2011, 05:39 PM
http://www.thenextpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/federer-tmc-2003-1.jpg

http://images.shareapic.net/images7/025680163.jpg

http://images.shareapic.net/images7/025679166.jpg

http://images.shareapic.net/images7/025678665.jpg

http://images.shareapic.net/images7/025675360.jpg

http://images.shareapic.net/images7/025740313.jpg


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSu5tVMKn-4JUZaibTmP2eKhRMzGygiSHY3sOatQ2tKoYZ-1it-LkHChxcOgw

Everko
11-29-2011, 05:40 PM
let this impress you

Hewitt 2002 Shanghai


RR: Safin 6-4, 2-6, 6-4
SF: Federer 7-5 5-7 7-5
F: Ferrero 7-5, 7-5, 2-6, 2-6, 6-4

Hewitt was better on qucik courts. The surface was good for him.

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 05:46 PM
hewitt never did in two years the amount of work djokovic did in one year in a season like 2011, and certainly not like in 2010 by nadal......that is one point......

hewitt was a transitional no.1 who countered a lot of fading old serve and volleyeres......the matches were certainly not this brutal......just watch the indian wells and miami finals this year for a start......

Shirogane
11-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Hewitt 2002 Shanghai

RR: Safin 6-4, 2-6, 6-4
SF: Federer 7-5 5-7 7-5
F: Ferrero 7-5, 7-5, 2-6, 2-6, 6-4Impressive stuff indeed.

JurajCrane
11-29-2011, 05:51 PM
there were times when YEC was treated with way more respect and given far more importance.......those battles of becker, sampras, ivanisevic, lendl, borg etc. certainly helped this tournament gain a meaningful existence.......

homogenization of surfaces and disappearing variety in the last 7 or 8 years have certainly shifted the sport of tennis a lot more towards baseline duels......

the game has become physically a lot more demanding and the match-lengths have started to increase.......that increased the average time spent by players in matches through out the year and there was a significant amount of increase in workload noticed......

all that lead to a lot more wear and tear and players walking into the WTF in hopeless condition with all sorts of injuries and stuff......

it's not for nothing that the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" pointing out the stupidity of its timing......

another reason contributing to the reducing significance of the tournament is that there's no constant place for the event......the nomadic tournament is moved every once in 3 years to a different city......

all this is giving an impression that the players don't really give too much importance to this event and play it only for the heck of it and for some loose cash at the end of the season......it was too obvious in the 2011 edition......

only those players who saved some energy for this event and less spent through out the year seem to be doing well in this namesake season end event......

not only discuss this topic but also feel free to think of solutions to get this tournament back to where it once was in players' minds......

This is like blah, blah, blah I do not like it cause my Rafito has no chance to win it.

You don´t know nothing about the game of tennis. World Tour Finals is the best way to end the season.

HKz
11-29-2011, 05:53 PM
Hewitt was better on qucik courts. The surface was good for him.

LOL failerko changed his stupid ass prediction. Fucking got embarrassed the shit out of.

As far as the thread is concerned, tard da fail still mad. Watch, if Nadal ever wins a WTF title he will be praising how important the tournament is, how good of a player Nadal is, etc. These Rafatards like clay fail, failerko and tard da fail never learn.

Start da Game
11-29-2011, 06:10 PM
LOL failerko changed his stupid ass prediction. Fucking got embarrassed the shit out of.

As far as the thread is concerned, tard da fail still mad. Watch, if Nadal ever wins a WTF title he will be praising how important the tournament is, how good of a player Nadal is, etc. These Rafatards like clay fail, failerko and tard da fail never learn.

do you ever get it fool? i still to this date don't praise us open or other hardcourt events for that matter......the only hardcourt events on tour which i like are australian open for the entertainment it provides, toronto for its history and shanghai for its disciplined outlook......

otherwise hardcourts is just not my cup of tea......i have always appreciated clay and grass equally to no end.....

and when will you get it that this thread is not about what i like or dislike, but about why WTF is tough for players to compete properly and what should be the right approach to the season end......

all those points should be discussed......who knows somebody has a better idea?

Sophocles
11-29-2011, 06:14 PM
LOL failerko changed his stupid ass prediction. Fucking got embarrassed the shit out of.

As far as the thread is concerned, tard da fail still mad. Watch, if Nadal ever wins a WTF title he will be praising how important the tournament is, how good of a player Nadal is, etc. These Rafatards like clay fail, failerko and tard da fail never learn.

Dunno, all the Rafatard ultras are on my ignore list. Wish people wouldn't quote the morons. Kinda defeats the object.

BigJohn
11-29-2011, 10:41 PM
Ladies and gentlemen: an understatement.




You don´t know nothing about the game of tennis.

BigJohn
11-29-2011, 10:43 PM
do you ever get it fool? i still to this date don't praise us open or other hardcourt events for that matter......the only hardcourt events on tour which i like are australian open for the entertainment it provides, toronto for its history and shanghai for its disciplined outlook......

otherwise hardcourts is just not my cup of tea......i have always appreciated clay and grass equally to no end.....

and when will you get it that this thread is not about what i like or dislike, but about why WTF is tough for players to compete properly and what should be the right approach to the season end......

all those points should be discussed......who knows somebody has a better idea?

This thread is about you being the laughable dumbass that you are and regular people enjoying the show.

tripwires
11-30-2011, 12:38 AM
It is a pointless tournament. It is a good idea but the end of the year every top player is hurt or very tired from the season. And its players that have had bad years that do the best in it like Federer this year

Sorry for being rude but are you retarded? Look at some of the years that Fed won it previously and look at how many Slams he won in those years. You truly are a clown. It's worrying when SdG agrees with you.

blind breed behaving like absolute butthurt idiots.......nobody is attacking your god, clowns.......take the discussion in the right spirit and contribute if you can......

What's the point of "contributing" to this thread when your original post stupidly called the WTF the World "Toast" Finals (as if that's even funny) and then stupidly represented that it's "widely" known as the World "Toast" Finals? If you want people to take you and your threads seriously, maybe you should stop agreeing with the Nadaltards that make stupid claims, like Everko, and start displaying some objectivity.

I mean, this junk certainly doesn't help your case:

nobody ever remembers how many toast finals borg or lendl or sampras has......i still am not sure how many pistol pete has, is it 4 or 5? somebody said 7......who cares anyway?


Are you actually serious? The entire week commentators were going on and on about Fed breaking Sampras and Lendl's title haul of 5, and you're saying that "nobody ever remembers" how many titles they won? See, this is why people don't take you seriously, so don't come back whining about how nobody wants to contribute to your thread when you're making a fool out of yourself seemingly with every post that you make.

venky91
11-30-2011, 03:18 AM
This thread delivers.

And no, it has not lost its charm.

Singularity
11-30-2011, 12:07 PM
and when will you get it that this thread is not about what i like or dislike, but about why WTF is tough for players to compete properly and what should be the right approach to the season end......
If you want to be objective, it would be good to start by distinguishing what you think from what others may think. And if you want to speak for people other than yourself, you have to quote them, or provide a source.

"the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" "

Who, other than you has remarked this? If it's "widely remarked", you should be able to find many sources. But I challenge you to provide just one single source.

That is assuming you do actually want to be objective, and didn't create this thread just to stir trouble. But that would be unthinkable...

dodo
11-30-2011, 01:46 PM
WTF count vol. 3

Federer - 39-7
Nadal - 9-10
thats just because those are SO EASY to win.
basically, you just have to nail the coin toss.

dodo
11-30-2011, 01:49 PM
"the tournament is now widely remarked as "world toast finals" "

Who, other than you has remarked this? If it's "widely remarked", you should be able to find many sources. But I challenge you to provide just one single source.


It has been widely regarded as such in DOZENS of SdG posts. What else could you possibly need?

dodo
11-30-2011, 01:55 PM
these questions are not difficult at all.

Sorry for being rude but are you retarded? You truly are a clown. It's worrying when SdG agrees with you.

Yes, he is.


What's the point of "contributing" to this thread when your original post stupidly called the WTF the World "Toast" Finals (as if that's even funny) and then stupidly represented that it's "widely" known as the World "Toast" Finals? If you want people to take you and your threads seriously, maybe you should stop agreeing with the Nadaltards that make stupid claims, like Everko, and start displaying some objectivity.

Well, people should know that the World Tour Finals are WIDELY regarded as the World Toast Finals. Because, you see, the TOUR is TOAST at the finals. Get it? It is widely thus regarded.



Are you actually serious? The entire week commentators were going on and on about Fed breaking Sampras and Lendl's title haul of 5, and you're saying that "nobody ever remembers" how many titles they won? See, this is why people don't take you seriously, so don't come back whining about how nobody wants to contribute to your thread when you're making a fool out of yourself seemingly with every post that you make.
Yes, quite serious. Also, the number of times you win the WTF only shows how many times over you are a virgin. This is a widely known scientific fact.

tripwires
11-30-2011, 02:13 PM
these questions are not difficult at all.


Yes, he is.


Well, people should know that the World Tour Finals are WIDELY regarded as the World Toast Finals. Because, you see, the TOUR is TOAST at the finals. Get it? It is widely thus regarded.



Yes, quite serious. Also, the number of times you win the WTF only shows how many times over you are a virgin. This is a widely known scientific fact.

OMFG. :haha: :haha: :haha: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Shit. I can't stop laughing. :haha:

Start da Game
11-30-2011, 02:20 PM
players are toast by the time of WTF, i have seen people outside MTF talking about the same thing......keep attacking like sour fools for no real reason......i will just wait for the next meaningful input......

tripwires
11-30-2011, 02:29 PM
players are toast by the time of WTF, i have seen people outside MTF talking about the same thing......keep attacking like sour fools for no real reason......i will just wait for the next meaningful input......

:haha:

You shouldn't have withdrawn from the ACC. You would've been my favourite for the contest.

Sophocles
11-30-2011, 02:57 PM
Start Da Coin.

:haha:

Sunset of Age
11-30-2011, 06:04 PM
From http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2011/11/48/London-Finals-Welcomes-Quarter-Million-Fans.aspx:

For a third successive year, the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals, held at The O2 in London, welcomed over a quarter of a million fans to the tournament across eight days of competition. The ATP’s season-ending tournament drew 250,256 fans to The O2, with 10 out of 15 sessions reaching a full capacity of 17,500.

The event also drew record audiences on TV and online. Approximately 95 million viewers in 184 countries watched the tournament on TV across the 8 days, a 60% increase on 2010. The ATP’s official websites and live scoring received a record 9 million visits during the week, a 30% increase on last year’s event.

Adam Helfant, ATP Executive Chairman and President, said: “The Barclays ATP World Tour Finals provided another fantastic finale to an historic ATP World Tour season. We’re thankful for the excellent support and enthusiasm the tournament and players received from fans around the world over the past eight days – from the 250,000 fans who attended in person at The O2 to more than 100 million fans who followed on television and online globally.”

"World Toast Finals", so much 'widely' appreciated - or not? -, indeed. :spit: :worship:

Tard Da Fail, just give it up.

samanosuke
11-30-2011, 06:22 PM
btw has legendary coin toss thread been deleted ? I can't find it . If isn't can somebody post a link ?

BigJohn
11-30-2011, 09:17 PM
i will just wait for the next meaningful input......

A meaningful input. Something you have yet to produce in any post of yours non-cricket related.

Mind you, your regular non-cricket meaningless inputs are widely appreciated. You do have fans.

Start da Game
12-01-2011, 12:20 PM
more redundant blind nonsense......i am still waiting for that next insightful post.....what's the conclusion anyway......my conclusion is that the tournament has certainly lost most of its charm and 18 people agree with me......

tripwires
12-01-2011, 12:35 PM
more redundant blind nonsense......i am still waiting for that next insightful post.....what's the conclusion anyway......my conclusion is that the tournament has certainly lost most of its charm and 18 people agree with me......

:haha: OMFG this is too good. :lol:

Start da Game. :hearts:

Sri
12-01-2011, 12:36 PM
I am ashamed this idiot is from country. What a troll! :-(

Start da Game
12-01-2011, 12:40 PM
@sri clown

the feeling is mutual, don't worry......

Sophocles
12-01-2011, 01:43 PM
He's not even campaigning. He's this good in what is effectively just an exhibition. The true GOAT.

Start da Game
12-01-2011, 02:10 PM
He's not even campaigning. He's this good in what is effectively just an exhibition. The true GOAT.

resist the inherent blind breed nonsense and try to contribute to the discussion.......nobody is campaigning for anything, we are all contributing to this forum and sharing gyan among one another......

Singularity
12-01-2011, 02:16 PM
players are toast by the time of WTF, i have seen people outside MTF talking about the same thing......keep attacking like sour fools for no real reason......i will just wait for the next meaningful input......
I contributed, and yet you completely ignored my post. I guess when you can't respond, that's the easiest thing to do.

tripwires
12-01-2011, 02:43 PM
I'm sorry I keep spamming this thread but SdG is just too fucking good. :haha: :hearts: He is HILARIOUS omfg.

Sri
12-01-2011, 02:44 PM
I'm sorry I keep spamming this thread but SdG is just too fucking good. :haha: :hearts: He is HILARIOUS omfg.
Please take him, Singapore needs more of him! :lol:

tripwires
12-01-2011, 02:50 PM
NOOOOOO WE HAVE ENOUGH RETARDS IN THIS COUNTRY!!!! :lol: I will enjoy his posts from a far, far, far distance please, thank you. :D

tektonac
12-01-2011, 03:01 PM
fedfarts made WTF look more important and significant than 4 GSs together. that's what you get when your boy gets left in the shadow.

Sophocles
12-01-2011, 03:06 PM
fedfarts made WTF look more important and significant than 4 GSs together. that's what you get when your boy gets left in the shadow.

16 > 4. Now fuck off.

ZakMcCrack
12-01-2011, 04:29 PM
more redundant blind nonsense......i am still waiting for that next insightful post.....what's the conclusion anyway......my conclusion is that the tournament has certainly lost most of its charm and 18 people agree with me......

Yap, thus you and your lousy bunch of eighteen against millions, basically. Bully!