The cheaters watch list [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

The cheaters watch list

HTK
10-20-2011, 07:29 AM
In connection to Stockholm Open a Swedish newspapper gave out the names that are on the Tennis Integrity Unit watchlist, for dumping matches.

Some of these are a real surprise to me! First half is called "black list" and the second half is being monitored.


Philipp Kohlschreiber
Potito Starace
Andreas Seppi
Fabio Fognini
Janko Tipsarevic
Michael Llodra
Nikolaj Davydenko
Teymuraz Gabashvili
Victor Crivoi
Christophe Rochus
Oscar Hernandez
Jevgenij Korolev
Filippo Volandri


Wayne Odesnik
Brian Dabul
Eduardo Scwhank
Jeremy Chardy
Simone Bolelli
Lukasz Kubot
Carlos Berlocq
Igor Kunitsyn
Andrej Golubev
Alex Bogomolov
Somdev Devvar-man
Steve Darcis
Marin Cilic
Flavio Cipolla
Ivo Karlovic
Viktor Troicki

http://www.svd.se/sport/41-tennisnamn-pa-svarta-listan_6563265.svd

MuzzahLovah
10-20-2011, 07:35 AM
In connection to Stockholm Open a Swedish newspapper gave out the names that are on the Tennis Integrity Unit watchlist, for dumping matches.

Some of these are a real surprise to me! First half is called "black list" and the second half is being monitored.


Philipp Kohlschreiber
Potito Starace
Andreas Seppi
Fabio Fognini
Janko Tipsarevic
Michael Llodra
Nikolaj Davydenko
Teymuraz Gabashvili
Victor Crivoi
Christophe Rochus
Oscar Hernandez
Jevgenij Korolev
Filippo Volandri


Wayne Odesnik
Brian Dabul
Eduardo Scwhank
Jeremy Chardy
Simone Bolelli
Lukasz Kubot
Carlos Berlocq
Igor Kunitsyn
Andrej Golubev
Alex Bogomolov
Somdev Devvar-man
Steve Darcis
Marin Cilic
Flavio Cipolla
Ivo Karlovic
Viktor Troicki


Link? I'm a little skeptical, especially because I don't see any really big names- current top 10s etc.

PiggyGotRoasted
10-20-2011, 07:41 AM
this list may be real - I know one of the players on the top part and yes he has fixed a match before.

jonathancrane
10-20-2011, 07:43 AM
Cilic? :lol:

Action Jackson
10-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Seppi is shit at closing out matches and sets, he hasn't been involved in any fixed matches.

Here is the link in Swedish http://www.svd.se/sport/41-tennisnamn-pa-svarta-listan_6563265.svd, which I can't be bothered translating, but these WTA players Victoria Azarenka, Agnieszka Radwanska, Francesca Schiavone

HTK
10-20-2011, 08:02 AM
Link? I'm a little skeptical, especially because I don't see any really big names- current top 10s etc.

http://www.svd.se/sport/41-tennisnamn-pa-svarta-listan_6563265.svd

Itīs in swedish, but here you go!

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 08:10 AM
Doubt Kubot. He is mentally unstable on court and was like that even on futures tour or national champs, been following him closely for years and not like TIU from this season or smth.

The other ones, I can guess where TIU is coming from, though Kohli and Seppi always looked to me awfully unstable too.

And yeah how on Earth didn't Chela make it.

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 08:18 AM
Oh and btw now I know why Davydenko was so much ranting on press yesterday at Kremlin Cup to ATP representatives, Schiavone was insanely pissed and didn't sign autographs, and Radwanska played like a zombie :facepalm:

MaxPower
10-20-2011, 08:25 AM
Doesn't matter if they are really cheaters/fixers or not to be on the list. What matters is the scorelines and the chokes. Also you would suspect that the betting companies contact ATP if there was a major livebet against a seemingly winning player that then suddenly started to lose. In some cases the gambler probably just took a major chance but normally you don't risk large amounts on bets like that.

Just to take a few of the names.

Kohlschreiber. Plays way more 3-set matches than your "average" player. Most pros actually close out matches in 2 when they win the first set. Kohli has lost more than any normal pro would do when winning the first set. Also lost plenty of matches from having multiple MPs

Fognini. Look at the scorelines in some his matches. Could win a match and be favorite in the next but then get bageled like a clown and lose easily. Very strange player

Gabashvilli/Korolev. Sometimes do so many errors that any sane person must think they do lose intentionally. I'm not sure myself

Troicki/Cilic. Probably both there just for choking tendencies. Dunno how many matches they have lost from being up.


I don't find the list that surprising because it's a few of the players I would say are most interesting to bet against vs lower rankeds or from winning positions because they are "chokers" or inconsistent.



How is Dolgopolov not on the blacklist? He is hands down the most blatant fixer on tour. Chela is also not on the blacklist, and he is absolutely top 5.

Dolgopolov is probably too "new" to be included on the blacklist yet. If he keeps lining really weird scorelines maybe he will get on the watchlist very soon

Sham Kay
10-20-2011, 08:29 AM
Innocent until proven guilty. (Karlovic and Cilic? Now I've heard it all..)

Sunset of Age
10-20-2011, 08:34 AM
Innocent until proven guilty. (Karlovic and Cilic? Now I've heard it all..)

This. End of thread.

Say Hey Kid
10-20-2011, 08:40 AM
Dolgopolov is probably too "new" to be included on the blacklist yet. If he keeps lining really weird scorelines maybe he will get on the watchlist very soon



I'm pretty sure the blacklist is mainly based on the line movement and betting market more than the scorelines. You can tell for sure when a match is fixed if you rountinely trade tennis markets. When the market is betting a certain player to lose at literally any price when they have a clear advantage in the match - it is surely fixed. The great thing about it is it's literally free money when that sort of line movement occurs, except when Betfair reversed all the wagers made on the epic Davydenko match.:mad: I'm still extremely sour about that one.

Tipsarevic, although on this list is up there with Dolgo/Chela in terms of making it ridiculously obvious.

Last year vs Zeballos in St. Petersburgh involving Tipsarevic was epic. Tipsy opened at 1.18, closed at 2.11. He proceeded to win the opening set and was then was a bigger underdog at 3.1. After Zeballos broke in the second set Tipsy skyrocketed to 6.4, and was 22-1 going into the 3rd set.

MaxPower
10-20-2011, 08:57 AM
^ good point. But if everyone believes a match is fixed it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as everyone will try to jump in on the "free money" and it will look even more fixed so no real evidence either.

JMG
10-20-2011, 08:59 AM
Kohlschreiber. Plays way more 3-set matches than your "average" player. Most pros actually close out matches in 2 when they win the first set. Kohli has lost more than any normal pro would do when winning the first set. Also lost plenty of matches from having multiple MPs

lol Since when has Kohlschreiber lost plenty of matches from mp? Wasn't it zero before 2011?

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 09:06 AM
^ good point. But if everyone believes a match is fixed it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as everyone will try to jump in on the "free money" and it will look even more fixed so no real evidence either.Yeah people like sheep tend to jump on the market creating even bigger panic.

If anyone reads Betfair forum for lolz sometimes they know it's full of desperates who sell their houses literally to be able to bet. This is not a problem for big money to arrive.

And imagine the match is clear and the other person pulls a win. Then everybody cries mafia organized a reverse fix. Wow.

Action Jackson
10-20-2011, 09:10 AM
Yeah people like sheep tend to jump on the market creating even bigger panic.

If anyone reads Betfair forum for lolz sometimes they know it's full of desperates who sell their houses literally to be able to bet. This is not a problem for big money to arrive.

And imagine the match is clear and the other person pulls a win. Then everybody cries mafia organized a reverse fix. Wow.

It's like anyone with a brain knows Seppi can't serve out sets, so the other player becomes a 1.04 when Seppi steps up to serve.

Ad Wim
10-20-2011, 09:40 AM
So the thread title is misleading? It's more the list of players that have peculiar scorelines. So could also be mentally very weak and/or chokers. Not necessarily cheaters/fixers in terms of suspicious betting patterns. Right?

HTK
10-20-2011, 09:41 AM
In the articel they interview one of Betfairs tennis daytraders.

He says the reason for being on the list is becouse the amounts betted on the game is often way higher then usual + That large summs are placed against a winning player, for not obvious reason.

IE. They know the game is fixed

Ad Wim
10-20-2011, 09:47 AM
Okay, but can't imagine Karlovic, Cilic and Troicki fixing matches.

Troicki and Cilic are mental midgets who tend to lose almost won matches or lose matches against top 200 guys because of lack of motivation.
Same holds for Chardy, Bolelli, Kubot, Darcis.
And if Karlovic has a bad serving day, he can lose to a lot of guys.

Don't think that the second list has anything to do with fixing.

Sonja1989
10-20-2011, 09:51 AM
Lukasz Kubot

I'm really surprised he is here and totally disagree with it. I watch him as much as I can and there was never problem with him..

I mean I watched few brutal choke and I'm sure it was due to his mentally level.



But I'm not surprised most of my favourites aren't here. :p :p :p

bad gambler
10-20-2011, 10:01 AM
Some notable absentees on that list

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 10:22 AM
Once I put my whole bank on Chardy when he was in a winning position btw and of course he lost like he always does.

He probably got on the list because of more people doing that; one of the safest investitions :lol:

bjurra
10-20-2011, 10:26 AM
So the thread title is misleading? It's more the list of players that have peculiar scorelines. So could also be mentally very weak and/or chokers. Not necessarily cheaters/fixers in terms of suspicious betting patterns. Right?

No, the list is based on betting patterns, not chokes or weird scorelines.

Some players on the watch list dont deserve to be there, in my opinion.

bjurra
10-20-2011, 10:27 AM
Once I put my whole bank on Chardy when he was in a winning position btw and of course he lost like he always does.

He probably got on the list because of more people doing that; one of the safest investitions :lol:

You always put your entire bank on the most stupid bets. Can I lend you some money? :wavey:

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 10:29 AM
You always put your entire bank on the most stupid bets. Can I lend you some money? :wavey:
Oh I meant Chardy to lose, sorry :rolls:

Him, Seppi, Kubot - players who are very reliable to lose when being up. Mischa Zverev is another one...

Kohli I haven't followed that much because I find him unpredictable, but now the famous "Kohli loser face" would be found out as scam? Acting? :eek: Kohli's loser face is worldwide known :rolls:

Action Jackson
10-20-2011, 10:30 AM
No, the list is based on betting patterns, not chokes or weird scorelines.

Some players on the watch list dont deserve to be there, in my opinion.

This.

VolandriFan
10-20-2011, 11:24 AM
No Schukin? You'd at least think Bracciali and di Mauro would be on the list considering they've actually been sanctioned for betting and all.

Now the ill-concealed fangirl within must speak out. Volandri is an easy target because he's Italian, can't play off clay and has a weak serve. The discussion over some of his matches is unfounded garbage, for example St Petersburg last year. In his defence, he's always been inconsistent and produces strange scorelines in matches that otherwise suggest no foul play.

No serve = WTA type scorelines, failure to close out matches et al.

jmf07
10-20-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm pretty sure the blacklist is mainly based on the line movement and betting market more than the scorelines. You can tell for sure when a match is fixed if you rountinely trade tennis markets. When the market is betting a certain player to lose at literally any price when they have a clear advantage in the match - it is surely fixed. The great thing about it is it's literally free money when that sort of line movement occurs, except when Betfair reversed all the wagers made on the epic Davydenko match.:mad: I'm still extremely sour about that one.

Tipsarevic, although on this list is up there with Dolgo/Chela in terms of making it ridiculously obvious.

Last year vs Zeballos in St. Petersburgh involving Tipsarevic was epic. Tipsy opened at 1.18, closed at 2.11. He proceeded to win the opening set and was then was a bigger underdog at 3.1. After Zeballos broke in the second set Tipsy skyrocketed to 6.4, and was 22-1 going into the 3rd set.

It's not a foolproof strategy though especially when it comes to matches involving Kevin Kim and his opponent agrees to it. On more than one occassion it has looked like a certain fix with Kevin winning and they can manipulate the market with not alot of $$$$ because there isn't much volume. They get it down to very short odds and then Kevin takes the first set everyone hops on the bandwagon thinking certain fix but unaware to them they have been lured in and the fix is actually for Kim losing and they make their money because of the huge volume of bets placed by people thinking certain money meanwhile Kim & co have a heap of bets laying him for the win.

MariaV
10-20-2011, 11:25 AM
This.

Haaaaaaaa, so you have nothing to say about Seppi being on the list? :dance:

jmf07
10-20-2011, 11:27 AM
:worship: King Oscar. The legend lives on even in retirement.

VolandriFan
10-20-2011, 11:27 AM
Haaaaaaaa, so you have nothing to say about Seppi being on the list? :dance:

He already did. ;)

Anyway, I'd take the list with a grain of salt. Azarenka? I mean, really.

scoobs
10-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Can we keep to general discussion without making accusations against specific players - that's against forum rules, unless the tennis authorities have engaged in action against a player for fixing, which this isn't - it's just speculation.

Action Jackson
10-20-2011, 11:38 AM
Haaaaaaaa, so you have nothing to say about Seppi being on the list? :dance:

I already did, but not my fault you missed it.

Deivid23
10-20-2011, 11:42 AM
Crap list in a crap board to talk about this issue. Wonīt waste more time

MariaV
10-20-2011, 11:54 AM
I already did, but not my fault you missed it.

:lol: I just had to tease you anyway, I mean I couldn't just keep quiet! :p

marquez
10-20-2011, 11:59 AM
chela must be a ghost for not making it on that list

as for kohli, he had that tank against crivoi in gstaad for example...

Chase Visa
10-20-2011, 12:18 PM
Karlovic shouldn't be there. He just is very reliant on his serve, so a bad serving day = automatic loss.

And where's Chela?

lol @ Odesnik, btw. Drug cheat and match fixer :lol:

MaxPower
10-20-2011, 12:24 PM
No, the list is based on betting patterns, not chokes or weird scorelines.

Some players on the watch list dont deserve to be there, in my opinion.

yeah but what creates weird betting patterns if not chokers and players known to lose from winning positions? Most betting is legit and not fixing. Most fixing would never be discovered and influence the overall betting pattern unless someone started to spread a rumor. Then the fixers failed big time anyway because the betting might be deemed illegal and all winnings void.

So got yourself a classic chicken and egg problem there. Point is this list isn't a list of fixers anyway so players don't deserve or not deserve to be there. It's just players that for some reason lose a lot from winning positions or don't seem to give their best effort in all matches might end up there. If they indeed just tank or are weak mentally why would they care. Nothing to fear

philosophicalarf
10-20-2011, 01:10 PM
Everyone on the main black list is fairly obvious, except Seppi (although he's had a few questionmarks).

On the 2nd list: Cilic, Karlovic, Devvarman, Chardy and Troicki I haven't heard anything against.



I suspect the list is both out of date, and only covering a fixed period. The top bunch seem to equate to those who are sent "we know you're fixing" letters by the TIU. In that case, Dolgopolov was, and Chela surely was also (Tipsarevic and Volandri admitted this in the media).

Kat_YYZ
10-20-2011, 01:13 PM
these players should sue

Poetik
10-20-2011, 01:48 PM
Kubot 0-2 to 3-2 against Almagro and 2-0 to 2-3 against Lopez. Two fast thinks;)

Chris Kuerten
10-20-2011, 01:54 PM
Only Devvarman, Karlovic and Troicki surprise me, I already knew about the rest.

abraxas21
10-20-2011, 02:08 PM
4 things

1- stop hanging around kolya on this issue. so what if he fixed a match here or there? it was all years ago. time to let it go, folks. just because he's ethnically ukranian it doesnt mean the racist western europeans in charge have to discriminate against him

2- wayne odesnik is a fucking legend. he's done every trick in the book. match fixing, doping, snitching fellow players, extorsion. dude is the primest example of the sad state of ongoing corruption of the powers that be in the ATP (association of tennis primadonnas).

3- where the hell is chela? that guy is professional fixer and he's never been accused of anything as far as im concerned. the list loses all its credibility right there

4- as we all know, king oscar obviously dumped a ton of matches. no surprise there. but he didn't do it for money; he did it for love, compassion and pity over the entire tour. in many moments he sacrificed his career and the chance of personal success just to give some charity to the less talented players. it's not fair to put him on this list along with the ones who have dumped matches for cash, imo.

Nixer
10-20-2011, 02:23 PM
yeah but what creates weird betting patterns if not chokers and players known to lose from winning positions? Most betting is legit and not fixing. Most fixing would never be discovered and influence the overall betting pattern unless someone started to spread a rumor. Then the fixers failed big time anyway because the betting might be deemed illegal and all winnings void.

So got yourself a classic chicken and egg problem there. Point is this list isn't a list of fixers anyway so players don't deserve or not deserve to be there. It's just players that for some reason lose a lot from winning positions or don't seem to give their best effort in all matches might end up there. If they indeed just tank or are weak mentally why would they care. Nothing to fear

Well, of course they are not confirmed fixers, otherwise they should be in ban now; but they are closely monitored for suspicious results - doesn't matter if they are just chokers or real fixers - there is just higher chance of catching them if they do fix (I imagine that's what the list is for)

tennizen
10-20-2011, 02:31 PM
I hope it's true what they say about Cilic. Incompetence instantaneously replaced by badassery.

Chris Kuerten
10-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Well, of course they are not confirmed fixers, otherwise they should be in ban now; but they are closely monitored for suspicious results - doesn't matter if they are just chokers or real fixers - there is just higher chance of catching them if they do fix (I imagine that's what the list is for)
:haha:

Nixer
10-20-2011, 02:40 PM
:haha:

hmm.. care to elaborate? I just said my opinion.. can't read in swedish, so dunno the whole article point

emotion
10-20-2011, 02:43 PM
This seems legit but... no Chela?
Both lists make sense though I don't get why Karlovic is even on watch list? There have been some weird lost SETS, so maybe he bets on himself once odds are down?

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
10-20-2011, 02:56 PM
a list of cheats

but no mention of time wasters- ball bouncers, injury fakers?

basically the top 10 ooutside of federer

Chris Kuerten
10-20-2011, 02:59 PM
hmm.. care to elaborate? I just said my opinion.. can't read in swedish, so dunno the whole article point
The tennis organizations aren't very keen on banning fixers, even if all the evidence confirms it.

abraxas21
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
The tennis organizations aren't very keen on banning fixers, even if all the evidence confirms it.

they might be willing to ban some of the low ranked fellows (unless their name is davydenko, just becuase they've never liked him) but rest assured they'll do anything within their power to protect the big shot tennis players.

abraxas21
10-20-2011, 03:16 PM
a list of cheats

but no mention of time wasters- ball bouncers, injury fakers?

basically the top 10 ooutside of federer

not to mention dopers

i should create a "dopers watch list" thread on MTF but the powers that be of the site -who are supportive of the ATP's corrupt policies- wouldn't like that.

v-money
10-20-2011, 04:24 PM
Everyone on the main black list is fairly obvious, except Seppi (although he's had a few questionmarks).

On the 2nd list: Cilic, Karlovic, Devvarman, Chardy and Troicki I haven't heard anything against.



I suspect the list is both out of date, and only covering a fixed period. The top bunch seem to equate to those who are sent "we know you're fixing" letters by the TIU. In that case, Dolgopolov was, and Chela surely was also (Tipsarevic and Volandri admitted this in the media).

Agree with all of this. Some of these guys like Cilic and Chardy just blow leads because they are so inconsistent while Troicki and Seppi are headcases who can't close out matches. Don't even know how Devvarman and Karlovic got on this list.

Dolgopolov and Chela should surely be there and Dolgopolov has also confirmed that he has had a chat with TIU.

Also I think they mixed up their Poles. Surprised that Kubot is here but Przysiezny isn't after that dodgy St. Petersburg match.

out_here_grindin
10-20-2011, 04:55 PM
Devvarman? That came out of nowhere. I would put him on a list of players that are the least likely to do this.

Dougie
10-20-2011, 05:08 PM
Agree with all of this. Some of these guys like Cilic and Chardy just blow leads because they are so inconsistent while Troicki and Seppi are headcases who can't close out matches. Don't even know how Devvarman and Karlovic got on this list.

Dolgopolov and Chela should surely be there and Dolgopolov has also confirmed that he has had a chat with TIU.

Also I think they mixed up their Poles. Surprised that Kubot is here but Przysiezny isn't after that dodgy St. Petersburg match.

I donīt really see the point why the TIU would release a list like that. But if it is genuine, itīs obvious that no one gets on that list for blowing leads or being inconsistent.

bjurra
10-20-2011, 05:14 PM
I really dont understand why the ATP would want to cover up match fixing. Anyone with at least moderate intelligence can understand that finding evidence for match fixing is difficult. You either need someone to testify against a player or proof in the shape of communication or money transfers. ATP players travel all over the world, covering your tracks with local anonymous sim-cards and off shore bank accounts is super easy, especially since they get help from shady people used to making illegal cash.

Sonja1989
10-20-2011, 05:17 PM
Anyway, I think it's very strong from the editors.. These players have other problems too, isn't only the idiot journalists baseless comments.

gaitare
10-20-2011, 05:17 PM
Agree with all of this. Some of these guys like Cilic and Chardy just blow leads because they are so inconsistent while Troicki and Seppi are headcases who can't close out matches. Don't even know how Devvarman and Karlovic got on this list.

Dolgopolov and Chela should surely be there and Dolgopolov has also confirmed that he has had a chat with TIU.

Also I think they mixed up their Poles. Surprised that Kubot is here but Przysiezny isn't after that dodgy St. Petersburg match.

Michal is not a fixer, he's just a shit player.

bjurra
10-20-2011, 05:18 PM
As for the article, it was written by Jonas Arnesen, a prominent Swedish tennis journalist with a massive ego. Arnesen wrote a long piece about match fixing for the Swedish tennis journal Svensk tennis. His only named source is a Swedish professional gambler called Johannes Nilsson who blogs on the Swedish tennis portal AMQJ.

ATP obviously has not officially released this list so either someone has leaked it or Arnesen is taking a gamble and is using the names provided by Nilsson.

Anyone into tennis gambling (like me) can see that this list is a bit strange, with some obvious players absent and some players (like Cilic and Karlovic) making a rather unexpected appearance.

And to all of you babbling on about chokes and scorelines: This is not about chokes, this is about betting patterns.

bjurra
10-20-2011, 05:24 PM
Anyway, I think it's very strong from the editors.. These players have other problems too, isn't only the idiot journalists baseless comments.

While I think that players being named and shamed in mainstream media and online is helpful in fighting match fixing, i think this particular reporter should not have published this list. Unfortunately, Swedish legislation regarding slander is very weak so journalists can get away with anything.

Nathaliia
10-20-2011, 05:27 PM
Betting patterns and chokes dont exclude. If some player is known to choke money floats on the opponent and odds start to look strange. Devvarman has crap serve so perhaps before his serve money goes on opponent

Everko
10-20-2011, 05:31 PM
terrible article. that's half the top 100. Someone is wishing this to be true

SVK
10-20-2011, 05:48 PM
As always when a list of such players is created there are few names which were probably never involved in such things (or at least they were not obvious)...also surprised there are lot of TOP WTA players...except some Belarusians Iīve never heard of such things in WTA currently.

Dougie
10-20-2011, 05:54 PM
Betting patterns and chokes dont exclude. If some player is known to choke money floats on the opponent and odds start to look strange. Devvarman has crap serve so perhaps before his serve money goes on opponent

Iīm sure many people would bet against a known choker, but this kind of betting rarely moves odds enough to raise suspicions. When someone is down a set and a break and is still 1,3 ( for example) there is more to it than a suspected, upcoming choke. That kind of betting is based on something that is certain to happen, not something that is likely to happen.

henke007
10-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Kunitsyn just lost 7-6 1-6 0-6 :o

Pirata.
10-20-2011, 07:56 PM
4- as we all know, king oscar obviously dumped a ton of matches. no surprise there. but he didn't do it for money; he did it for love, compassion and pity over the entire tour. in many moments he sacrificed his career and the chance of personal success just to give some charity to the less talented players. it's not fair to put him on this list along with the ones who have dumped matches for cash, imo.

Beautiful post.

Henry Chinaski
10-20-2011, 08:23 PM
second part of the list is utterly ridiculous.

MatchFederer
10-20-2011, 08:23 PM
Bizarre betting patterns/ scoreline scenario tug of war in this thread.

Both are utterly intrinsic.

All that is left to be potentially argued is balance.




That is all.

Mateya
10-20-2011, 08:24 PM
What is Seppi doing on this list? I so wanna smack someone now.
Thanks for support, ActionJackson :hug:

And highly suspicious Chela not on the list?
For these two reasons only you know this is a joke list. Some of the names are on, but some of them are epic fail.

Poetik
10-20-2011, 11:00 PM
Kunitsyn just lost 7-6 1-6 0-6 :o

claer match:o

yep, I forgot about Przysiezny trick in Moscow 2010. Similar like Zeballos-Tipsa on the first page in this thread. Przysiezny won first set and 1.11 odds on Tursunov win. Classic. When Michal played on the ATP level(higher limits) always losing in 2 sets. What a good player.

hotdog
10-20-2011, 11:06 PM
It's a poor piece of journalism. Anybody who knows anything about tennis and match fixing would understand.

Agrajag
10-21-2011, 12:07 AM
terrible article. that's half the top 100. Someone is wishing this to be true

I would say someone is wishing it isn't.

Action Jackson
10-21-2011, 12:14 AM
While I think that players being named and shamed in mainstream media and online is helpful in fighting match fixing, i think this particular reporter should not have published this list. Unfortunately, Swedish legislation regarding slander is very weak so journalists can get away with anything.

Publishing list, better be confident of his sources.

Henry Chinaski
10-21-2011, 01:00 AM
list has been around a long time, this is just first time names have been revealed

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/exclusive-wimbledon-on-high-alert-over-suspected-matchfixing-rings-1707744.html

Say Hey Kid
10-21-2011, 01:11 AM
^ good point. But if everyone believes a match is fixed it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as everyone will try to jump in on the "free money" and it will look even more fixed so no real evidence either.

That's true, the market can panic in certain circumstances. However, $250,000 being bet against Tipsarevic in a span 20 minutes at flat out ridiculous prices isn't normal players panicking suspecting fix. Nor is $5 million being bet on Davydenko to lose at any price, when the normal amount bet on a match of that magnitude is under $1 million. In fact, a good majority of the players will back the fixer- under the impression they are getting very good value. This is the reason BetFair reversed wagers on that match - the majority of the public blindly bet Davydenko and then were in an outroar crying to get a refund when he did indeed retire.


Somdev Devvarmann was involved in a highly suspicious match invovling Kevin Kim (also huge fixer who certainly should be on the list) back in 2009 in Chennai. Kim opened at 1.71, closed at 2.12, and was then 5.1 in the first set when up 2-1 on serve. It just got more ridiculous from there.

Karlovic has been involved in quite a few very suspicious matches. 2006 or 2007 vs Chela in Adelaide was extremely obvious. 2010 Doha against Fognini was suspicious , as was wimbledon this year against Tipsy. Those are just the few off the top of my head. And to think of it, if you are going to fix doing it against Karlovic would be perhaps the easiest player to do it against.

My guess is a few of the players on the second list were just involved in matches containing suspicious betting patterns, as opposed to the ones who were actually doing the fixing. I don't recall any matches containing Cilic, Karlovic, Devarrman, Seppi, or Kubot where the suspicious betting patterns were on them to lose.

If anyone does know of any, please let me know.

bjurra
10-21-2011, 09:29 AM
Error post...

hotdog
10-21-2011, 09:31 AM
Goodbye Bjurra.

Deivid23
10-21-2011, 09:33 AM
Some mafia moderator keeps deleting my completely uncontroversial posts in this thread. Bye MTF, I have had enoughh.

You should have not bothered to discuss about it here, told ya

hotdog
10-21-2011, 09:39 AM
Suspicious betting patterns don't necessarily mean the match has been fixed. E.g Tipsarevic against Karlovic at Wimbledon this year. Anybody who saw Tipsy's match a few days before would have piled in on Karlovic...and that was indeed what happened.

hotdog
10-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Anyway it turns out that the TIU don't have a list after all...

hotdog
10-21-2011, 09:44 AM
...poor journalism..shoddy

philosophicalarf
10-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Somdev Devvarmann was involved in a highly suspicious match invovling Kevin Kim (also huge fixer who certainly should be on the list) back in 2009 in Chennai. Kim opened at 1.71, closed at 2.12, and was then 5.1 in the first set when up 2-1 on serve. It just got more ridiculous from there.


That's just the opponent tanking though, and he went on to lose in straights. No reason to suggest Devvarman was involved - why pay two players when you just need one to tank?

Same scenario in Karlovic-Fog: Karlovic opened at 1.426, closed at 1.376. He wasn't broken all match and won in straights, so same scenario as above, only needs one to tank.

hotdog
10-21-2011, 01:40 PM
...and the Karlovic/Tipsy one at Wimbledon was purely an injury gamble. Anybody who saw Tipsy just a few days prior to Wimbledon would have piled in on Karlo.

Jomp1
10-21-2011, 02:00 PM
Just a question, how would you come up with 41 names out of the blue? Blue-eyed me would choose to believe it's got some accuracy as it says it's a list the TIU, ATP and Betfair has come up with(although obviously not confirmed and never would be). Especially as Swedish media doesn't have a clue about international tennis, they could never guess their way to such a list. Quite a few of these players have had some shady matches at the very least, but some are also headcases and chokers.

Then again, it's just a watch list based on betting patterns(everybody who's into betting knows what types of patterns we're talking about here), not a list of confirmed cheaters. There's a big difference between the two.

philosophicalarf
10-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Just a question, how would you come up with 41 names out of the blue?

Most (75%?) of the men's names would be on a list any experienced gambler could come up with. That some of the others are ridiculous headcases/chokers, as you say, makes me think it was sourced from a gambler. I have my own list, with five levels of suspicion (absolute certainty to the vaguest hint of suspicion), and Chardy and Cilic aren't even on the lowest level, never heard or seen anything against them. Most of the rest are top two.

Also, 10 guys were sent letters at the start of the year by the TIU, "enquiring" about fixing, and the names were leaked to the press. Tipsarevic was one, he's on this list - but the reason he's there is because of a match in Moscow with Zeballos, where both needed to be involved for it to work. Zeballos isn't on this list, but was sent a TIU letter. So was Dolgopolov, he isn't on this list either.

@mods: These guys have confirmed publically they got the letters, so this isn't dodgy rumour btw :-)

There's one other who it's rumoured was sent a letter, and logically must have been because he's done countless blatant fixes, but it hasn't been confirmed he's done so. However, he's not on this list either.

Snowwy
10-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Some mafia moderator keeps deleting my completely uncontroversial posts in this thread. Bye MTF, I have had enoughh.

You haven't had one post deleted in this thread. Don't lie. Or maybe you meant to make this post with another account, kinda looks like that right now. :wavey:

@mods: These guys have confirmed publically they got the letters, so this isn't dodgy rumour btw :-)

That's why this thread is still here. The only posts that are being removed are ones like.

"Player A is the biggest fixer in the entire world. All he does is fix. I F#$@% hate him...."

This list doesn't mean any of the players have cheated, it means their betting patterns are suspisious, but it is not proof so posts like that are still not allowed.

Henry Chinaski
10-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Anyway it turns out that the TIU don't have a list after all...

source?

the list most likely originates with a gambler/betting company and may have been sent to the tiu. whether they acknowledged it is another story.

such lists have been mentioned before my more respectable journalists than this swedish guy. 9the indo link i posted above, mike dickinson in the daily mail last june)

Henry Chinaski
10-21-2011, 03:48 PM
Most (75%?) of the men's names would be on a list any experienced gambler could come up with. That some of the others are ridiculous headcases/chokers, as you say, makes me think it was sourced from a gambler. I have my own list, with five levels of suspicion (absolute certainty to the vaguest hint of suspicion), and Chardy and Cilic aren't even on the lowest level, never heard or seen anything against them. Most of the rest are top two.

Also, 10 guys were sent letters at the start of the year by the TIU, "enquiring" about fixing, and the names were leaked to the press. Tipsarevic was one, he's on this list - but the reason he's there is because of a match in Moscow with Zeballos, where both needed to be involved for it to work. Zeballos isn't on this list, but was sent a TIU letter. So was Dolgopolov, he isn't on this list either.



more proof that this "list" is ancient.

Like the presence of chris rochus (who announced his retirement 20 months ago) wasn't enough

philosophicalarf
10-21-2011, 04:10 PM
more proof that this "list" is ancient.

Like the presence of chris rochus (who announced his retirement 20 months ago) wasn't enough

Mrrrm, good point.

I have a fairly good idea where this came from now. Should be able to find out at the weekend.

hotdog
10-21-2011, 04:14 PM
Several European sources have quoted Mark Harrison (media guy for TIU) as saying they have no such list. http://www.welovetennis.fr/atp/41004-k is one.


The fact is of course they do have a list. They have been supplied with a list of dodgy matches for the last 10 years by an influential bookmaker (who shall remain nameless:).)

Henry Chinaski
10-21-2011, 04:54 PM
thanks for the link.

Hian-GOAT
10-21-2011, 05:12 PM
I think a lot of the players in the list aren't guilty at all.
Just considering Seppi. We all know he's a coward in closing the matches. This has been the main problem in all his career, and this fact is tied to other players, too.
Guys, you really see some examples of this sport like Schiavone and Radwanska CHEATING in their matches? These women rather fight 'till the end even if they're playing shit.

The only player in that list I can accepte is Volandri :facepalm: Such a disgusting cheater.

merryploughbhoy
10-21-2011, 06:19 PM
As a seasoned gambler myself I have definitely seen matches that are rigged - no doubt about it, challenger matches mostly. You can tell if a player if trying but having no luck or deliberately loosing points then acting angry. I reckon the bookies themselves play a big part in it, they lure you in with their odds then have a word with players before the match and offer them more money for fixing the game than they would get for winning it. Result - bookie saves having to pay out and player gets twice as much cash, both are winners. Its better to stay clear of betting on low profile matches at mickey mouse tornaments like challenger/250 as this is where most corruption is.

Say Hey Kid
10-22-2011, 01:13 AM
That's just the opponent tanking though, and he went on to lose in straights. No reason to suggest Devvarman was involved - why pay two players when you just need one to tank?

Same scenario in Karlovic-Fog: Karlovic opened at 1.426, closed at 1.376. He wasn't broken all match and won in straights, so same scenario as above, only needs one to tank.

I agree Devarrmann and Karlovic were not involved in fixing. My theory was the second list contained some players who were involved in suspicious matches, not the ones who were doing the fixing. As for Kevin Kim, to call him a tanker is too good. Kevin Kim is most definitely on the TIU list of fixers if one exists.

Suspicious betting patterns don't necessarily mean the match has been fixed. E.g Tipsarevic against Karlovic at Wimbledon this year. Anybody who saw Tipsy's match a few days before would have piled in on Karlovic...and that was indeed what happened.

No they don't, but when suspicious betting patterns involve Tipsarvic it's the most likely canidate. You can't tell me the betting patterns on Zeballos weren't a clear fix.

The match Tipsy had against Oscar Hernandez was also pure gold, and he even picked up quite a bit of media flack for it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/matchfixing-fears-return-after-flood-of-unusual-bets-1749957.html

Tipsy opens 1.70, closed at 14-1 :haha:, and was trading at 35-1 after he lost the first set. Sounds legit.

Although the betting patterns on the Karlovic match weren't so mind boggling as some of his other matches, it was still the biggest line movement out of any match in Wimbledon. With Tipsarevic opening at 1.90 and closing at 3.4. It's hard to give the benefit of doubt to Tipsy of all players.

philosophicalarf
10-22-2011, 01:30 AM
I agree Devarrmann and Karlovic were not involved in fixing. My theory was the second list contained some players who were involved in suspicious matches, not the ones who were doing the fixing. As for Kevin Kim, to call him a tanker is too good. Kevin Kim is most definitely on the TIU list of fixers if one exists.


I think if the list included anyone who beat someone who tanked after their odds rocketed, it'd be 5x-10x the size.

As for Kim :-) His match with Istomin ....... just legendary in this context. I remember watching it, just gobsmacked as it swung back and forth. Pure artistry.



Although the betting patterns on the Karlovic match weren't so mind boggling as some of his other matches, it was still the biggest line movement out of any match in Wimbledon. With Tipsarevic opening at 1.90 and closing at 3.4. It's hard to give the benefit of doubt to Tipsy of all players.

Yeah, but he was carrying an injury, he'd retired in the Eastbourne final just three days earlier. The 1.6ish is also an artificial opening line, he opened at it yes, but that got beat up to to 2ish before pinnacle took any money on it - at $200 a pop, and disproportionate early line hunters on that side, might take all of $1k to move it to 2.0, especially if those hitting it are known sharps.

Was only after midday on the match day the odds ballooned, and a lot of it was clearly sheep following too, because there was a decent amount of bounceback, and pinnacle closed at 2.420

Not that I'd want to argue his case much otherwise.

Say Hey Kid
10-22-2011, 01:36 AM
As a seasoned gambler myself I have definitely seen matches that are rigged - no doubt about it, challenger matches mostly. You can tell if a player if trying but having no luck or deliberately loosing points then acting angry. I reckon the bookies themselves play a big part in it, they lure you in with their odds then have a word with players before the match and offer them more money for fixing the game than they would get for winning it. Result - bookie saves having to pay out and player gets twice as much cash, both are winners. Its better to stay clear of betting on low profile matches at mickey mouse tornaments like challenger/250 as this is where most corruption is.

It's possible sportsbooks are involved, but in my opinion extremely unlikely. The major ones like betwin, bet365, pinnacle,5dimes,WH, don't need to fix matches. The potential gain doesn't outweigh the slim chance you do get busted, lose your gambling empire and go to prison for racketeering. Also, if one sportsbook knew a fix was in and Offered Player A (fixer) at 3.00, and player B at 1.40. Meanwhile, at other sportsbooks the odds were reversed, it would result in people scalping, betting the maximum on the fixer at the sportsbook who is involved in the fixing, and the max on the other player at any other sportsbook. This way a profit would be ensured. Other sportsbooks would soon catch on and know something is highly suspicious.

I could see small rogue bookies getting involved, but it's more likely that players are just offered X amount of dollars, paid in cash, to lose by mafia or other organized crime groups.

philosophicalarf - I agree his wimbledon match vs Karlovic can't be called a fix based on line movement, but it still raised my eyebrow and i'd imagine at least was investigated by TIU, considering Tipsarevic was involved. There was more wagered on it at betfair than the average 1st round wimbledon match as well, but that could certainly be due to sharps who saw good value. To call it a clear fix would be foolish and irresponsible, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tipsy knew he was going to lose before stepping onto the court.

You're probably right that the players on the second list aren't on it for just being the other player playing the suspected fixer. That said, I can't remember a single match there was weird betting patterns vs Karlovic, or Devvarmann. Just a theory I threw out there.

However, i'd like to know more about this list and if it was compiled by someone credible.

hotdog
10-22-2011, 06:31 PM
The list doesn't exist as such. The TIU have a record of all suspect matches over the past few years (supplied to them by BF and certain reputable bookies).


PS I wouldn't like to meet Tipsarevic on a lovely sunny day let alone a dark night!

bjurra
10-23-2011, 08:42 AM
You haven't had one post deleted in this thread. Don't lie. Or maybe you meant to make this post with another account, kinda looks like that right now. :wavey:


ActionJackson has even quoted a post from me in this thread that now is gone. I will assume it is just a technical error.

bjurra
10-23-2011, 08:43 AM
As a seasoned gambler myself I have definitely seen matches that are rigged - no doubt about it, challenger matches mostly. You can tell if a player if trying but having no luck or deliberately loosing points then acting angry. I reckon the bookies themselves play a big part in it, they lure you in with their odds then have a word with players before the match and offer them more money for fixing the game than they would get for winning it. Result - bookie saves having to pay out and player gets twice as much cash, both are winners. Its better to stay clear of betting on low profile matches at mickey mouse tornaments like challenger/250 as this is where most corruption is.

Most ridiculous post in this thread.

Caesar1844
10-23-2011, 12:14 PM
It's possible sportsbooks are involved, but in my opinion extremely unlikely. The major ones like betwin, bet365, pinnacle,5dimes,WH, don't need to fix matches. The potential gain doesn't outweigh the slim chance you do get busted, lose your gambling empire and go to prison for racketeering. Also, if one sportsbook knew a fix was in and Offered Player A (fixer) at 3.00, and player B at 1.40. Meanwhile, at other sportsbooks the odds were reversed, it would result in people scalping, betting the maximum on the fixer at the sportsbook who is involved in the fixing, and the max on the other player at any other sportsbook. This way a profit would be ensured. Other sportsbooks would soon catch on and know something is highly suspicious.

I could see small rogue bookies getting involved, but it's more likely that players are just offered X amount of dollars, paid in cash, to lose by mafia or other organized crime groups.
The sportsbooks aren't involved, but they definitely keep their ear to the ground and a lot of the time they know (or at least suspect) when the fix is on. I have a mate who worked for one of the major European sportsbooks when he was over there, and the amount of crap he heard about organised crime involvement in everything from football transfers to match fixing boggles the mind.

The guys at those companies definitely use those whispers when setting their odds, no doubt about it. They may not be involved, but they benefit from it.

Mr.Darcy
10-23-2011, 03:23 PM
It's really sad to see so many Italian names on the list...:awww:
But honestly, Italian players are so mediocre that they do not need to bet on their losses: these come "naturally" to them.

philosophicalarf
10-23-2011, 07:33 PM
It's really sad to see so many Italian names on the list...:awww:
But honestly, Italian players are so mediocre that they do not need to bet on their losses: these come "naturally" to them.

Not much doubt about most of them, to be honest. For example, three years ago there was a TIU list leaked to the press - Volandri's name was on it 11 times (and he's done plenty since).

I heard of one this year another current Italian was going to pull .... a day before there was any sign on the market (didn't believe it unfortunately!). He wins first set, then retires.

It doesn't need to be a particular shame on a country though imo - sometimes these things come in batches, lots of players at a similar age (and presumably it's not going to be talked of much so will stay in small circles).

For example, there used to be a lot of fixing by the Argentines, but the generation doing it are mostly retired now.

Snowwy
10-23-2011, 07:41 PM
ActionJackson has even quoted a post from me in this thread that now is gone. I will assume it is just a technical error.

Maybe my MTF and your MTF are different, but all your posts, including the one AJ quoted all remain. :)

Li Ching Yuen
10-23-2011, 08:14 PM
This is most probably bullshit and spread out by some idiotic gambler that's reached critical levels of butthurt over betting on tennis, and losing of course.

However, I'd like to use this post to bring my appreciation to the one and only, Wayne "Mahfacka" Odesnik. Dude's a genius, he's so much of a black sheep that it actually makes him come out and seem pretty badass overall. He is doing everything and at the end of the day he's still playing the game professionally. The thought of seeing all the other players watch him playing out there with his back full of zits from being so chocked up full of dope is pretty hilarious.

Chela is another all-time great trickster, camping in the Top30 like a boss, out-foxing everyone, ATP Grandfather.

:worship:

bjurra
10-24-2011, 07:25 PM
Maybe my MTF and your MTF are different, but all your posts, including the one AJ quoted all remain. :)

You are right.;)