Who has the best serve-return combo on the tour? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Who has the best serve-return combo on the tour?

romismak
10-18-2011, 06:56 PM
What do you think which player has together serve-return of serve as best combo- i think it is close between Djokovic-Murray- both are probably 2 best returnes and both have similar quality of serves- i mean Murray has clearly better 1st serve, but lower %FS in and Nole has better 2nd serve. Or maybe someone else?

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 06:58 PM
i gotta admit......King FedEx at his BEST :worship:

LawrenceOfTennis
10-18-2011, 06:59 PM
If he plays well, Delpo. He rap*d Fedal. Just look at those monster returns 09.

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 07:06 PM
OMG ILL NEVA FORGET WHAT DELPO DID TO MY POOR HELPLESS RAFI :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:

Especially in Miami and Us open :sobbing: sobbing: :sobbing:

LawrenceOfTennis
10-18-2011, 07:08 PM
OMG ILL NEVA FORGET WHAT DELPO DID TO MY POOR HELPLESS RAFI :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:

Especially in Miami and Us open :sobbing: sobbing: :sobbing:

Take it easy. Delpo has been extremely unlucky since.

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 07:14 PM
thats what makes it so sad ever since his wrist injury which cause him to miss the whole 2010 season because got surgery on it......i felt terrible absolutely terrible for him......i mean hes so young and so softly spoken and well talented, but hopefully he will bring back his 2009 form......... o dear:unsure: :scared:

Certinfy
10-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Berdych...


... When he's playing Federer. :o

Sapeod
10-18-2011, 07:28 PM
Murray.

His serve, when he's in form and in the zone, is pretty unreturnable. His returns, when he's in form and in the zone, are just superb and probably the best on the tour. Both of these together are almost unbeatable and make him frustrating to play.

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 07:39 PM
actually Murray and Nole are both fantastic at that combo, to me they both are tied for second place, still Fed is numero uno

delboy
10-18-2011, 07:43 PM
JesusFed definitely.

Saberq
10-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Murray.

His serve, when he's in form and in the zone, is pretty unreturnable. His returns, when he's in form and in the zone, are just superb and probably the best on the tour. Both of these together are almost unbeatable and make him frustrating to play.

I voted Novak but I have to say Murray(yeah I know it's a shock)...Murray has slightly worse return than Novak but his Serve is better more than his return is worse so I give it to Murray.....but Novak is still a break point GOAT........but answer is Andy

Saberq
10-18-2011, 07:48 PM
If he plays well, Delpo. He rap*d Fedal. Just look at those monster returns 09.

Delpo is an awful 1st serve returner ........great serve though

MuzzahLovah
10-18-2011, 07:49 PM
Murray has a better first serve, and return of first serves. Djokovic has a better second serve, and return of second serves. All in all pretty close. But in preparation for the wave of Murray hate, I'll give the edge to Murray.

Saberq
10-18-2011, 07:50 PM
Murray has a better first serve, and return of first serves. Djokovic has a better second serve, and return of second serves. All in all pretty close. But in preparation for the wave of Murray hate, I'll give the edge to Murray.

Can someone quote me so that the gay guy can see my answer?Djokovic is the best return player on the planet 1st serve,2nd ,3rd,ect....

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 07:52 PM
Nole is by FAR the greatest returner PERIOD.

saberq: ;)

Saberq
10-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Nole is by FAR the greatest returner PERIOD.

saberq: ;)

of course he is best of all time ......:cool:

EliSter
10-18-2011, 08:04 PM
Murray.

His serve, when he's in form and in the zone, is pretty unreturnable. His returns, when he's in form and in the zone, are just superb and probably the best on the tour. Both of these together are almost unbeatable and make him frustrating to play.

U sure made me :lol: here.

xdrewitdajx
10-18-2011, 08:19 PM
Murray. His low first serve % is the only thing that hurts him in this category, really. His 1st serve is excellent.
Djokovic would be right up there if he had his 2007ish serve.

Alex999
10-18-2011, 08:24 PM
According to the biggest expert on MTF Sapeod Murray is best at everything. He has the best FH, the best BH, the best ROS, the best movement, the best running shoes. Andy is the prettiest player on the tour too. Andy's hair is mmmm, so beautiful. Somehow Andy, with all of his superior skills is ranked #3 in the world and he won zero GS. ATP must do something about that. It's not fair.

I apologize to true Murray fans on this board for being sarcastic. I'm a Murray fan too but I just don't understand how anybody can be so st...d like this Sapeod guy. Gee.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 08:27 PM
I voted Novak but I have to say Murray(yeah I know it's a shock)...Murray has slightly worse return than Novak but his Serve is better more than his return is worse so I give it to Murray.....but Novak is still a break point GOAT........but answer is Andy

Even though Djokovic has had a much better year, Murray still tops the leaderboard for points won returning first serve (the true test of a returner). Any difference in second serve returning this year (very minor advantage to Nole) can be explained by Djokovic simply being a superior rallier this year.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 08:28 PM
Can someone quote me so that the gay guy can see my answer?Djokovic is the best return player on the planet 1st serve,2nd ,3rd,ect....

Nope. See my previous post.

Naudio Spanlatine
10-18-2011, 08:28 PM
According to the biggest expert on MTF Sapeod Murray is best at everything. He has the best FH, the best BH, the best ROS, the best movement, the best running shoes. Andy is the prettiest player on the tour too. Andy's hair is mmmm, so beautiful. Somehow Andy, with all of his superior skills is ranked #3 in the world and he won zero GS. ATP cheater, darn.

I apologize to true Murray fans on this board for being sarcastic. I'm a Murray fan too but I just don't understand how anybody can be so st...d like this Sapeod guy. Gee.

IKR :o :facepalm:

its like we might as well hear about Andy's sex life, Andy's golden achievements(o wait its on his sigy:rolleyes: ), Andy's so special, Andys is the greatest player ever to exist on earth, Andy's dogs(even tho i love dogs :hearts: ), Andy's is the funniest guy in the world, ANDY THIS ANDY THAT, :ras:

Saberq
10-18-2011, 08:32 PM
Even though Djokovic has had a much better year, Murray still tops the leaderboard for points won returning first serve (the true test of a returner). Any difference in second serve returning this year (very minor advantage to Nole) can be explained by Djokovic simply being a superior rallier this year.

still Nole is the king ....but Murray wins this poll

Clydey
10-18-2011, 08:38 PM
still Nole is the king ....but Murray wins this poll

No one doubts that Nole is the best player on tour. However, you cannot call him the best returner in the world based on one year of dominance on second serves, when Murray has dominated the tour's return stats since 2006 (when he was 19).

romismak
10-18-2011, 08:59 PM
Even though Djokovic has had a much better year, Murray still tops the leaderboard for points won returning first serve (the true test of a returner). Any difference in second serve returning this year (very minor advantage to Nole) can be explained by Djokovic simply being a superior rallier this year.

Agree about 1st serve return is the best sign of how good the return is. the same goes to 1st serve points won- how good the serve is. Because statistics on 2nd serve points won and 2nd serve return points won are more about rallies, baseline game tha pure serve, pure return. According to ATP statistics Murray is one of best returners in many categories, only clay-courters are above him, so i look on HC and Murray is since 91 after Chang 2nd best returner- return games won, 1st return points won 2nd too and 2nd return points won 3rd, so basically he is top 3 returner since 91 in everything on HC. Actually when you see his statistics in many areas, also the other index- where is on ATP website indoor-outdoor, surfaces wins-loss ratio he is pretty high, in top 10 in many categories. I must admit that Murray with his numbers is by far best player than never won slam or best-one of best player that never was No.1.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Agree about 1st serve return is the best sign of how good the return is. the same goes to 1st serve points won- how good the serve is. Because statistics on 2nd serve points won and 2nd serve return points won are more about rallies, baseline game tha pure serve, pure return. According to ATP statistics Murray is one of best returners in many categories, only clay-courters are above him, so i look on HC and Murray is since 91 after Chang 2nd best returner- return games won, 1st return points won 2nd too and 2nd return points won 3rd, so basically he is top 3 returner since 91 in everything on HC. Actually when you see his statistics in many areas, also the other index- where is on ATP website indoor-outdoor, surfaces wins-loss ratio he is pretty high, in top 10 in many categories. I must admit that Murray with his numbers is by far best player than never won slam or best-one of best player that never was No.1.

Can you link me to those stats?

romismak
10-18-2011, 09:18 PM
Can you link me to those stats?

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-Landing.aspx

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Reliability-Zone/Reliability-Zone-Landing.aspx

Saberq
10-18-2011, 09:25 PM
No one doubts that Nole is the best player on tour. However, you cannot call him the best returner in the world based on one year of dominance on second serves, when Murray has dominated the tour's return stats since 2006 (when he was 19).

Novak is a clutch return player....you dont teach that ...and many tennis experts call him the best ever return wise...

DrJules
10-18-2011, 09:38 PM
According to the biggest expert on MTF Sapeod Murray is best at everything. He has the best FH, the best BH, the best ROS, the best movement, the best running shoes. Andy is the prettiest player on the tour too. Andy's hair is mmmm, so beautiful. Somehow Andy, with all of his superior skills is ranked #3 in the world and he won zero GS. ATP must do something about that. It's not fair.

I apologize to true Murray fans on this board for being sarcastic. I'm a Murray fan too but I just don't understand how anybody can be so st...d like this Sapeod guy. Gee.

To be fair to Sapeod I read as many Rafatards and Djokotards saying how wonderful Nadal and Djokovic is.

It seems natural for fans to have highly exaggerated views of the player they support.

In relation to now would marginally say Murray. The Djokovic serve is not quite good enough.

Federer in his golden period 2004-2007 was certainly the best I saw. The great server who used to return big serves so well.

nole_no1
10-18-2011, 09:45 PM
Djokovic and Murray are the best returners right now but their serves aren't great so i don't know what to say...

emotion
10-18-2011, 09:45 PM
Nole's serve is so overrated. I'd say for instance Ferrer is equal. And is one guy on tour with better return. I say Fed at peak, Murray or Monfils now

DrJules
10-18-2011, 09:48 PM
Novak is a clutch return player....you dont teach that ...and many tennis experts call him the best ever return wise...

Djokovic is the best returner, but loses on this evaluation on his serve.

Say Hey Kid
10-18-2011, 09:54 PM
Murray's 1st serve is very good, but his second serve is literally one of the worst on the tour. In fact, he wins only 49% of his second serve pts, which is the worst in the top 30. That is an exceptional stat considering Murray will win the majority of neutral rallies against the majority of players on tour. Murray is no doubt a great returner, but he certainly doesn't have a top tier serve, he is 26th on the tour in terms of % of service games won.

A very overlooked player in this discussion is Berdych. He is the only other player aside from Djokovic who is in the top 10 in service games won, and return games won. Winning 87% of his service games, and 29% of his return games.

However, my vote goes to Djokovic. Right now he has by far the best serve-return combo on the tour.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 09:54 PM
Djokovic is the best returner, but loses on this evaluation on his serve.

As has already been pointed out, Murray is statistically one of the best returners ever. Djokovic isn't. He can't be a better returner based on one season of dominance, during which he has still been eclipsed by Murray on points won returning first serve. Again, that is the true test of a returner.

romismak
10-18-2011, 10:00 PM
Murray's 1st serve is great, but his second serve is literally one of the worst on the tour. In fact, he wins only 49% of his second serve pts, which is the worst in the top 30. That is an exceptional stat considering Murray will win the majority of neutral rallies against the majority of players on tour. Murray is no doubt a great returner, but he certainly doesn't have a top tier serve, he is 26th on the tour in terms of % of service games won.

A very overlooked player in this discussion is Berdych. He is the only other player aside from Djokovic who is in the top 10 in service games won, and return games won. Winning 87% of his service games, and 29% of his return games.

However, my vote goes to Djokovic. Right now he has by far the best serve-return combo on the tour.

Yes Andy´s 2nd serve is not so great, but overall his serve is pretty good- not great but very good, the same with Nole, the thing is they have no competition from other side- i mean there is nobody from best servers with solid return- Karlovic, Isner, Raonic, Roddick,Tsoga are in return statistics by far far lower than Nole and Andy in serve statistics as best returners in the game. So basically this gives from good servers only few guys that have solid returns - Federer, Berdych, Monfils, Fish- that why i include them all in poll from other side. Clearly Nole-Andy are representating best returners with solid serves, but best servers didn´t have solid return- only very good servers like Roger, Berdych have solid returns - this season.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 10:10 PM
Just looking through the statistics. On hard courts, Murray is statistically probably the best returner of all time. Across the board, he has better stats than everyone else. In 2 of the 4 return categories, he is 2nd all time. In another, he is 3rd all time. His only relatively poor return stat is breakpoint conversion.

MuzzahLovah
10-18-2011, 10:21 PM
Murray's 1st serve is very good, but his second serve is literally one of the worst on the tour. In fact, he wins only 49% of his second serve pts, which is the worst in the top 30. That is an exceptional stat considering Murray will win the majority of neutral rallies against the majority of players on tour. Murray is no doubt a great returner, but he certainly doesn't have a top tier serve, he is 26th on the tour in terms of % of service games won.

A very overlooked player in this discussion is Berdych. He is the only other player aside from Djokovic who is in the top 10 in service games won, and return games won. Winning 87% of his service games, and 29% of his return games.

However, my vote goes to Djokovic. Right now he has by far the best serve-return combo on the tour.

I thought we were talking about serve/return(as in the shots), games are won or based off of both serves and returns, and rallies. The percentage of games won isn't really relevant to this discussion.

I do agree Berdych is a contender.

Asadinator
10-18-2011, 10:29 PM
JesusFed definitely, but his return has been crap for a while. Djokovic's serve might look like it might break down at any moment, but to his credit it's still effective, so overall its Djokovic.

Saberq
10-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Just looking through the statistics. On hard courts, Murray is statistically probably the best returner of all time. Across the board, he has better stats than everyone else. In 2 of the 4 return categories, he is 2nd all time. In another, he is 3rd all time. His only relatively poor return stat is breakpoint conversion.

Dude I was about to take you seriously but with this you lost me LOL .......Novak is the best return player that ever lived ...I know I followed Agassi before.......Novak is the best returner for years now...who leads the tour with most breaks of serve this year?

Saberq
10-18-2011, 10:36 PM
Djokovic is the best returner, but loses on this evaluation on his serve.

I agree

Clydey
10-18-2011, 10:47 PM
Dude I was about to take you seriously but with this you lost me LOL .......Novak is the best return player that ever lived ...I know I followed Agassi before.......Novak is the best returner for years now...who leads the tour with most breaks of serve this year?

I just told you the all-time return statistics, yet you still believe Djokovic is the best returner ever...

Ok, let me make this clearer to you.

All-time percentage of points won returning first serve on hard courts (I'm excluding clay for obvious reasons): 1. John McEnroe (with a small sample of 50 matches) 1. Andy Murray (joined for first place) ...17. Novak Djokovic.

All-time percentage of points won returning second serve on hard courts: 1. Andre Agassi 2. Patrick McEnroe 3. Andy Murray ... 20. Novak Djokovic.

All-time percentage of return games won on hard courts: 1. Michael Chang 1. Andy Murray (joined for first place) ... 10. Novak Djokovic.

All-time percentage of break points converted on hard courts: 6. Novak Djokovic ...42. Andy Murray.

As you can see, Murray leads Djokovic clearly in 3 of the 4 categories and is only let down by BP conversion. Either way, he leads Djokovic on the 2 most important stats for a returner: return games won and points won returning first serve.

Djokovic is nowhere close to being the best returner of all time..

Say Hey Kid
10-18-2011, 11:09 PM
I thought we were talking about serve/return(as in the shots), games are won or based off of both serves and returns, and rallies. The percentage of games won isn't really relevant to this discussion.

I do agree Berdych is a contender.

Sure it is. Alot of people overlook Murray's beyond atrocious second serve. The fact Murray has the lowest % of 2nd serve points won out of all players in the top 30 totally takes him out of this discussion. If Murray's service was a strong point of his he would win much more service games considering the fact he's one of the best at winning neutral rallies.

His overall service is rather poor, which is why I don't see how anyone could put him ahead of Djokovic.

Clydey
10-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Sure it is. Alot of people overlook Murray's beyond atrocious second serve. The fact Murray has the lowest % of 2nd serve points won out of all players in the top 30 totally takes him out of this discussion. If Murray's service was a strong point of his he would win much more service games considering the fact he's one of the best at winning neutral rallies.

His overall service is rather poor, which is why I don't see how anyone could put him ahead of Djokovic.

That is just this year. Last year, Murray won a higher percentage on second serves than Djokovic did. And in 2009, they won exactly the same percentage on second serves.

You are basing your opinion on a single year. In other years, they have been pretty even on that stat. All time, Djokovic has won 4% more points than Murray on his second serve. All-time, Murray has won 3% more points than Djokovic on his first serve. Combined, that's an advantage of 1% to Djokovic. There is very little separating them as servers.

heya
10-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Agassi, Federer, Michael Chang and Andy Murray are the smartest and most successful of all time.

in my wet dreams.

leng jai
10-18-2011, 11:52 PM
Tommy Hass

Say Hey Kid
10-19-2011, 12:14 AM
That is just this year. Last year, Murray won a higher percentage on second serves than Djokovic did. And in 2009, they won exactly the same percentage on second serves.

You are basing your opinion on a single year. In other years, they have been pretty even on that stat. All time, Djokovic has won 4% more points than Murray on his second serve. All-time, Murray has won 3% more points than Djokovic on his first serve. Combined, that's an advantage of 1% to Djokovic. There is very little separating them as servers.

I agree with you - I am just talking about this year inparticular and recent form. It's possible Murray one day could be the best serve-return combo on tour, but right now he certainly is not and he has never been since he came on tour. Djokovic has taken his game to beyond new heights and is by far the current leader, mainly due to his unbelievable return. Judging every current player's whole career I would give Federer the honor of being the best serve-return combo career wise.

I don't think you can really make a legitmate argument that Murray should win this poll. One of the best returners of all time? Absolutely, but he has never been a great server, and most likely never will be.

Topspindoctor
10-19-2011, 12:18 AM
At their absolute best - I'd have to grudgingly admit that it's Olderer.

MuzzahLovah
10-19-2011, 01:49 AM
Fed has terrible return statistics compared to the rest of the top 4, and usually he blocks returns- I'm not sure where this Fed surge has come from.

Clydey
10-19-2011, 01:51 AM
I agree with you - I am just talking about this year inparticular and recent form. It's possible Murray one day could be the best serve-return combo on tour, but right now he certainly is not and he has never been since he came on tour. Djokovic has taken his game to beyond new heights and is by far the current leader, mainly due to his unbelievable return. Judging every current player's whole career I would give Federer the honor of being the best serve-return combo career wise.

I don't think you can really make a legitmate argument that Murray should win this poll. One of the best returners of all time? Absolutely, but he has never been a great server, and most likely never will be.

I just posted stats that demonstrate that you can make an argument for him.

rocketassist
10-19-2011, 01:53 AM
Bolelli

leng jai
10-19-2011, 01:55 AM
Fed has terrible return statistics compared to the rest of the top 4, and usually he blocks returns- I'm not sure where this Fed surge has come from.

Probably because he has one of the best serves on tour and a very good defensive ROS.

Also he has 16 slams which counts for a lot in every topic on this forum.

Say Hey Kid
10-19-2011, 02:47 AM
I just posted stats that demonstrate that you can make an argument for him.

I don't think comparing Murray's career stats to Djokovic's is valid. Djokovic was nothing close to the player he was before 2011. He is a totally new player and his game has improved vastly.

If you want to gauge by the best career's I think you'd have to go with Federer.

Federer's problem has always been winning long rallies against the other elite players. Nearly every single time Federer plays Murray he loses the majority points where the rallies last 8+ shots.

I think everyone would agree Murray has the advantage in neutral rallies. If he held the edge in overall serve/return combination you'd assume he'd have more success against him in the big matches and at least hold one GS.

Federer's whole gameplan against Murray is based on the serve/return combo. Doing his best to end the point as quickly as possible on his service points, and aggressively attacking Murray's second serve on the return - doing his best to give himself a clear advantage in the the point off the serve/return and end the point as quickly as possible, as Federer knows Murray holds the advantage in neutral rallies.

Federer's gameplan seems to work well, as he always seems to get the better of Murray when it matters most.

Johnny Groove
10-19-2011, 03:00 AM
Of the top 4, Federer clearly has the best serve. Followed by Murray, then Djokovic, then Nadal.

In terms of return, Djokovic is #1, then Muzz, Nadal, and finally Fed.

This is all based on 2011 of course. If we count for the career, the numbers would be different.

MuzzahLovah
10-19-2011, 03:10 AM
Of the top 4, Federer clearly has the best serve. Followed by Murray, then Djokovic, then Nadal.

In terms of return, Djokovic is #1, then Muzz, Nadal, and finally Fed.

This is all based on 2011 of course. If we count for the career, the numbers would be different.

Exactly, so if you average them in respect to those two shots, Muzzah and Djokovic are very close for the best combo with Fedal obviously behind them.

MuzzahLovah
10-19-2011, 03:15 AM
I don't think comparing Murray's career stats to Djokovic's is valid. Djokovic was nothing close to the player he was before 2011. He is a totally new player and his game has improved vastly.

If you want to gauge by the best career's I think you'd have to go with Federer.

Federer's problem has always been winning long rallies against the other elite players. Nearly every single time Federer plays Murray he loses the majority points where the rallies last 8+ shots.

I think everyone would agree Murray has the advantage in neutral rallies. If he held the edge in overall serve/return combination you'd assume he'd have more success against him in the big matches and at least hold one GS.

Federer's whole gameplan against Murray is based on the serve/return combo. Doing his best to end the point as quickly as possible on his service points, and aggressively attacking Murray's second serve on the return - doing his best to give himself a clear advantage in the the point off the serve/return and end the point as quickly as possible, as Federer knows Murray holds the advantage in neutral rallies.

Federer's gameplan seems to work well, as he always seems to get the better of Murray when it matters most.

If Fed had a winning gameplan against Murray, he wouldn't have a losing head to head. Fed is obviously not forgetting his gameplan for the majority of their matches.

Most of his big wins are down to the fact that he has more experience than Murray in Grandslam/WTF finals and semis, and handles the pressure better. They haven't played in a year, so it's hard to see where they are currently, but as this was Fed's worst year in a long while, and it was probably Murray's best, I'm betting Murray will still win the majority of their matches, like he did against a younger, fitter Federer.

MuzzahLovah
10-19-2011, 03:21 AM
Probably because he has one of the best serves on tour and a very good defensive ROS.

Also he has 16 slams which counts for a lot in every topic on this forum.

Fed's incredible record makes his return weakness a more evident. Even when he was winning everything in the world, he wasn't in the top of the return statistics-that's not his strong suit. It's like saying Nadal has won 10 grandslams because his serve is so big and flat- it's just not accurate. It doesn't mean they are any less champions.

Say Hey Kid
10-19-2011, 04:19 AM
Of the top 4, Federer clearly has the best serve. Followed by Murray, then Djokovic, then Nadal.

In terms of return, Djokovic is #1, then Muzz, Nadal, and finally Fed.

This is all based on 2011 of course. If we count for the career, the numbers would be different.

That just isn't true. Murray's serve is by far the worst out of the big four, and top 10. He has better first serve than Djokovic and Nadal, but his second serve is bottom 20 of the ATP top 100.

He is the only player in the top 30 who wins less than 50% of his 2nd serve points. As I said earlier, it is an extraordinary statistic when you take into account how Murray will win the vast majority of neutral rallies. Meanwhile, Nadal, Federer, and Djokovic are the leaders in 2nd serve points won. Murray can't even put himself in a neutral position on his second serve, let alone gain any advantage at all with it. He's also dead last behind the big 3 in terms of service games won for the year, and his percentage of service games won for career.

To say Murray has an overall better serve than Djokovic/Nadal simply isn't true, and it isn't even close.

Say Hey Kid
10-19-2011, 04:42 AM
If Fed had a winning gameplan against Murray, he wouldn't have a losing head to head. Fed is obviously not forgetting his gameplan for the majority of their matches.

Most of his big wins are down to the fact that he has more experience than Murray in Grandslam/WTF finals and semis, and handles the pressure better. They haven't played in a year, so it's hard to see where they are currently, but as this was Fed's worst year in a long while, and it was probably Murray's best, I'm betting Murray will still win the majority of their matches, like he did against a younger, fitter Federer.

Federer might havr a losing head to head record vs Murray, but I don't think anyone can make the case that Federer hasn't gotten the better of Murray over the course of their careers. Beating him in straight sets in two GS finals takes the cake.

That said, this thread is just about the serve/return only. When Federer plays the big 3 he has a significant disadvantage when it comes to long rallies. Almost every time losing the majority of the points when the rallies are 8+ shots against Murray,Djokovic and Nadal. His gameplan is based on the serve/return combo. Gaining the advantage early in the point with a big serve, and being very aggressive on the second serve return.

When talking about careers i'm giving this advantage to Federer.

Anyway, i'm off for the night. :wavey:

philosophicalarf
10-19-2011, 11:52 AM
He is the only player in the top 30 who wins less than 50% of his 2nd serve points.

He's 51% career, and 53 lately. It's not as much a difference as it's made out to be, his "weak 2nd serve" is only giving up 3% or so on this stat, and on overall serve points that's all of 1.3%.

The worst in the top30 is Troicki by miles.

heya
10-19-2011, 12:55 PM
3 years ago, djoker serve was worst of top 5 players and health was a bad interference.
he has the best serve placement and doesn't need to rely on bashing 125 mph like federer does.
he only double faults when he has physical and emotional issues.
the last 2 yrs., nadal and djoker returns were the best.
djoker is best and most efficient on all surfaces.
the other players are weaker on clay or hardcourts.

Rodre Fegassi
10-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Nadal.

His serve and return are both severely under-rated.

rocketassist
10-19-2011, 01:19 PM
I'll always take Murray's ROS over Novak's.

Rodre Fegassi
10-19-2011, 01:24 PM
I'll always take Murray's ROS over Novak's.

Only because you're British.

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 01:26 PM
Or perhaps because that is maybe his opinion.

Rodre Fegassi
10-19-2011, 01:29 PM
Or perhaps because that is maybe his opinion.

Any time a poster with a British flag says something nice about Murray there is a huge asterisk over it.

You'll notice that about 75% of British posters hate Murray, but posters from all other nations UNIVERSALLY hate him.

rocketassist
10-19-2011, 01:39 PM
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8935/k254985backinthedaystro.jpg

paseo
10-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Monfils.

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Murray can float his returns slowly onto the opponents baseline thus giving himself time and forcing the opponent to dig the ball out which a lot of players are uncomfortable doing. That is a skill that Faker does not have.

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 02:01 PM
My opinion does not count because I am British.

Saberq
10-19-2011, 03:01 PM
Murray can float his returns slowly onto the opponents baseline thus giving himself time and forcing the opponent to dig the ball out which a lot of players are uncomfortable doing. That is a skill that Faker does not have.

my friend I know you dont like Novak but saying Murray has better ROS is like me saying Novak's game is more beautiful than Rogers.....:cool:

rocketassist
10-19-2011, 03:06 PM
my friend I know you dont like Novak but saying Murray has better ROS is like me saying Novak's game is more beautiful than Rogers.....:cool:

Djokovic doesn't face many big servers and he doesn't return Karlovic's as well as Murray does (he returns it better than anyone)

Nadal's shit serve isn't a marker for anything.

Agassi is the GOAT returner and Hewitt wasn't far behind.

philosophicalarf
10-19-2011, 03:22 PM
Murray is clearly a better fast court returner than Djokovic imo. He does the goalkeeper thing better, stops them going past him.

Slow court Djokovic's are better, especially his attacking returns on clay and hard courts like Miami, IW, Australia and so on.

UsD.AnDreS
10-19-2011, 03:26 PM
As long as tennis consists exceptionally of points played on serve or return, I'd go with a guy who usually wins more points during the match than his opponent (or more important points) - at the moment it is Djokovic.

Johnny Groove
10-19-2011, 03:31 PM
Murray can float his returns slowly onto the opponents baseline thus giving himself time and forcing the opponent to dig the ball out which a lot of players are uncomfortable doing. That is a skill that Faker does not have.

You are correct. Faker would rather rip returns on the opponent's baseline.

Ask Fedal at the USO.

Naudio Spanlatine
10-19-2011, 03:33 PM
My opinion does not count because I am British.

ROADMAP:hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
where the hell have u been? :devil:

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 04:26 PM
You are correct. Faker would rather rip returns on the opponent's baseline.

Ask Fedal at the USO.

Djokovic is indeed more proficient at the close your eyes and hit and hope type of return :cool: I prefer Murray's relatively slow paced but extremely well placed returns that ask the opponents a different question :D

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 04:29 PM
ROADMAP:hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
where the hell have u been? :devil:

I was wrongly convicted of trolling and had to serve some MTF time. I am back fully refreshed and raring to go :)

Naudio Spanlatine
10-19-2011, 04:29 PM
:inlove:

oranges
10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Only because you're British.

I'm not and I would too. Wouldn't think a second. Wonder what's your explanation in that case.

Saberq
10-19-2011, 04:41 PM
Djokovic still shits on Murray when it matters and that is in the clutch

Naudio Spanlatine
10-19-2011, 04:42 PM
oh he really really does, jus like rafa and fedEx

murex
10-19-2011, 04:46 PM
Let's go again
Only for muzzatards eyes :wavey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Qh-r77Sk4

Naudio Spanlatine
10-19-2011, 04:52 PM
Let's go again
Only for muzzatards eyes :wavey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Qh-r77Sk4

im not a muzztard but thanks for those delishous highlights:worship: :hearts:

Rodre Fegassi
10-19-2011, 05:03 PM
my, my, some of Nadal's serves looked almost as bad as Murray's in that highlight vid. Some proper middle-of-the-box sitters there.

It surprises me that Djokovic is so good at returning because of the top 3 (Nadal, Federer and him) - he seems by far the least innately athletic as evidenced by his lousy soccer keepie-up skills. Federer and Nadal are said to be good soccer players - and that is usually a good measure of innate co-ordination.

Good flexibility is all that Djokovic has going for him physically. Nadal should train like an American football player - they have some of the best 40yrd dash times and vertical leaps on the planet - imagine bringing that to the court. Hit the heavy weights and protein shakes.

Saberq
10-19-2011, 05:14 PM
Let's go again
Only for muzzatards eyes :wavey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Qh-r77Sk4

GOAT :worship::worship::worship:......I never saw Murray hit a return winner .......I dont remember

Mateya
10-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Look at the rankings.

What a thread. :silly:

Clydey
10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
my friend I know you dont like Novak but saying Murray has better ROS is like me saying Novak's game is more beautiful than Rogers.....:cool:

Stats have already been posted that prove definitively that Murray has a better return. You can whine all you want, but facts are facts.

Clydey
10-19-2011, 05:41 PM
Djokovic doesn't face many big servers and he doesn't return Karlovic's as well as Murray does (he returns it better than anyone)

Nadal's shit serve isn't a marker for anything.

Agassi is the GOAT returner and Hewitt wasn't far behind.

Statistically, Murray is better than both. Hard to compare Murray to Agassi because of court speeds, but Murray beats Hewitt by a mile.

GOAT = Fed
10-19-2011, 05:53 PM
Certainly not Djokovic. His returns are absolutely beast but he falls waaay down in the serving department (Only time this year I remember it being truly on fire was AO and Miami). Andy Murray take the vote for me in this. His serving is very good and has the best return stats on tour to back it up.

JesusFed, were he around these days wold definitely take the vote for me. Godly serve and grear returns. Djokovic is Godly returns, average returns and Murray is Godly returns and good serves.

MalwareDie
10-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Djokovic's ROS is overrated. Just because he wins more points returning second serves, doesn't make him a better returner than Murray. As others have already noted, what it means is that Djokovic is a more solid rallier.

Saberq
10-19-2011, 07:02 PM
Djokovic is ROS GOAT and dont argue with me I am running out of arguments ....

Rodre Fegassi
10-19-2011, 09:26 PM
Djokovic is ROS GOAT and dont argue with me I am running out of arguments ....

Djokovic is the GOAT of every single area of the game. That includes volleying - he is the most underrated volleyer of all time - look at his effectiveness at the net vs Nadal.

BodyServe
10-19-2011, 09:32 PM
Djokovic is the GOAT of every single area of the game. That includes volleying - he is the most underrated volleyer of all time - look at his effectiveness at the net vs Nadal.

Don't forget his smashes, that's first and foremost what helped him to grab the number 1 ranking.

rocketassist
10-19-2011, 09:33 PM
Djokovic is the GOAT of every single area of the game. That includes volleying - he is the most underrated volleyer of all time - look at his effectiveness at the net vs Nadal.

http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2010/12/8/0/conceptual-art-meme-28624-1291785175-4.jpg

Roadmap
10-19-2011, 09:38 PM
Cannot argue with you there Mugassi. Players like Laver, Mcenroe, Edberg, Becker, Sampras and Federer had nothing on Faker in the volleying department. As they say tennis is constantly evolving.

MatchFederer
10-19-2011, 10:05 PM
Djokovic is the GOAT of every single area of the game. That includes volleying - he is the most underrated volleyer of all time - look at his effectiveness at the net vs Nadal.

You speak an alarming amount of sense. The only thing Djokovic really needs to improve a little bit now is his movement. It would also help him if he could get his serve back to the form it was in about a year ago, but other than that, perfect human being!

oomph
10-20-2011, 11:06 AM
If he plays well, Delpo. He rap*d Fedal. Just look at those monster returns 09.

:facepalm:

God, federer should flog himself for that choke.

BodyServe
10-20-2011, 11:11 AM
Monfils might have an edge here, in terms of getting the ball back in play, not aggressive returns of course.

Saberq
10-20-2011, 11:18 AM
:facepalm:

God, federer should flog himself for that choke.

Serving for the second set....

oomph
10-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Djokovic is indeed more proficient at the close your eyes and hit and hope type of return :cool: I prefer Murray's relatively slow paced but extremely well placed returns that ask the opponents a different question :D

yeah because of a fluke return he is suddenly a beast :lol:

Although he DID tear Nadull a new one.