Shanghai QF: (2) Murray d. Ebden 6-3 6-2 [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Shanghai QF: (2) Murray d. Ebden 6-3 6-2

EddceLLent
10-14-2011, 01:44 PM
Andy Murray secures a spot in the semi-finals where he'll face Kei Nishikori, after a straightforward victory over Australian Matthew Ebden, the 2011 Commonwealth Games men's singles bronze medalist.

If Murray can win the next two matches, and thus retain the title, he'll overtake Roger Federer in the rankings on Monday.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d173/eddcassels/murrayebden.jpg

Luinir
10-14-2011, 01:45 PM
Asian hat-trick for Murray.

ufiors
10-14-2011, 01:47 PM
Yes Muzza, you're #3

Action Jackson
10-14-2011, 01:48 PM
Excellent week for Ebden will learn a lot from this match.

Duncan
10-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Great few weeks for Andy so far. Must keep focussed though. Title is not in the bag by any means

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 01:53 PM
Ebden will be out of the top 100 by the French Open 2012. Mediocrity doesn't begin to describe.

Murray was comfortable, nothing more or less. This tournament is extremely boring, though, and Murray is almost assured of winning the title barring shock. Whoopty do.

scoobs
10-14-2011, 01:54 PM
Not too bad from Andy, bit ragged at times, attitude wise especially, but Ebden obligingly collapsed for 7 games after being broken in the 7th game of the 1st set and by the time he got back on an even keel it was too late.

philosophicalarf
10-14-2011, 01:55 PM
Good fight by Ebden, some nice netplay.

Murray hit the accelerator after 3-3 first set, won 7 games in a row with some terrific stuff, then eased off again. Was fairly comfortable, only faced 1bp ( was later in 2nd set, and he aced it away).

bjurra
10-14-2011, 01:59 PM
Ebden will be out of the top 100 by the French Open 2012. Mediocrity doesn't begin to describe.

Have a look at players ranked 80-99 and you won't struggle to spot players worse than Ebden.

BroTree123
10-14-2011, 02:00 PM
Filo V, don't be so evil man -- we're all human.

Great week for Ebden, not bad taking 5 games of an in-form Murray. Let's hope his game develops further in the future.

davidrafael
10-14-2011, 02:19 PM
I didn’t get a chance to respond to Filo V in the other thread so thought I might as well do it here.

I’m not going to question your character Filo V as a I don’t know you at all or anything about you, but I will question your credibility when you’re slagging others off on an anonymous internet forum.

I find it questionable when you’re slagging off top 100 tennis players. What was your highest ranking? How many ATP titles you have? (titles in the tipping forum on mens tennis forums don’t count ;) ) You don’t get a top 100 ATP pass in a wheaties box.

Sure, its questionable for someone like Ebden to make top 100, but as Action Jackson mentioned in the other thread, it doesn’t happen by accident. You need consistent results to get there, in either ATP or Challengers, and even more consistent results to stay there. You’re slagging off Kukishkin and Bogomolov – that I really don’t understand. Kukishkin has been inside the top 100 now for 18 months nearly – that doesn’t just happen by chance. Bogomolov is 38 in the world, with wins over top 10 players – that again doesn’t happen by chance.

Just because someone isn’t pretty to watch, doesn’t mean they are not talented or deserving to be in the top 100. Brad Gilbert will be the first person to back me up on that.You’re knocking guys saying that “hard work” alone shouldn’t get them to the top 100. Are you kidding me? The worlds Challenger and Futures tours are filled with guys oozing with talent, who wouldn’t know what hard work is, all because they’re too busy travelling the world, having a good time, going out and getting pissed during tournaments whilst living off mum and daddy’s money…..

Firstly, I know Matt and grew up playing tennis with him, I’m not really a close friend of his, and whilst I got along well with him and he was always good to me, he has come across at times to others as being slightly arrogant, although all round I’d say he is a pretty decent bloke, and you’d find much worse on the tour.

There’s no doubt he’s not at the moment top 50 material, and there was an oceans difference between him and Murray tonight, but, you say his game is horrible? I’d rather just simply say he hasn’t the weapons of some of the better players of the tour.

However he has a pretty decent first serve, which makes his ground strokes better as it allows him to start the point hitting the ball on his terms, and overall I’d say he has pretty good hands at net – he can volley better than 90% of the players in the top 100 these days ;) and a solid all court game, hence why he’s won a couple of double titles. He won 19/25 points at net tonight, against Murray, who granted, wasn’t in the form of his life tonight, but is still a pretty damn good defensive player when someone approaches him at the net.

If your questioning his strokes, What do you think of Isner and Karlovic making top 20 then?? Have you ever hit with Arthurs or Guccione? Cause I have, and their groundstrokes were pretty damn ordinary. They all had amazing serves, but apart from that they were pretty ordinary.

I will grant you that Ebdens 3 ATP quarter finals this year and his ATP doubles wins, occurred in rather “weak” ATP tournaments, which were lacking in top players. However, he has still been good enough to be the “best of the rest” and take his opportunities and has consistently outperformed players of his ranking in such tournaments. So kudos to him. Likewise, he's now joined an elite club that's made the top 100 in both singles and doubles, suggesting that he's a good all round player. An even smaller proportion of professional players achieve top 100 in both.

But what he will find difficult next year to keep his ranking up – is that if he wants to play the ATP circuit he won’t be able to avoid clay like he has this year. He's yet to play a tournament on clay this year. And to be honest, he’s not really going to win too many matches at ATP level on clay ;) unless he improves a hell of a lot. His game is just not suited to it.

GOAT = Fed
10-14-2011, 02:29 PM
I didn’t get a chance to respond to Filo V in the other thread so thought I might as well do it here.

I’m not going to question your character Filo V as a I don’t know you at all or anything about you, but I will question your credibility when you’re slagging others off on an anonymous internet forum.

I find it questionable when you’re slagging off top 100 tennis players. What was your highest ranking? How many ATP titles you have? (titles in the tipping forum on mens tennis forums don’t count ;) ) You don’t get a top 100 ATP pass in a wheaties box.

Sure, its questionable for someone like Ebden to make top 100, but as Action Jackson mentioned in the other thread, it doesn’t happen by accident. You need consistent results to get there, in either ATP or Challengers, and even more consistent results to stay there. You’re slagging off Kukishkin and Bogomolov – that I really don’t understand. Kukishkin has been inside the top 100 now for 18 months nearly – that doesn’t just happen by chance. Bogomolov is 38 in the world, with wins over top 10 players – that again doesn’t happen by chance.

Just because someone isn’t pretty to watch, doesn’t mean they are not talented or deserving to be in the top 100. Brad Gilbert will be the first person to back me up on that.You’re knocking guys saying that “hard work” alone shouldn’t get them to the top 100. Are you kidding me? The worlds Challenger and Futures tours are filled with guys oozing with talent, who wouldn’t know what hard work is, all because they’re too busy travelling the world, having a good time, going out and getting pissed during tournaments whilst living off mum and daddy’s money…..

Firstly, I know Matt and grew up playing tennis with him, I’m not really a close friend of his, and whilst I got along well with him and he was always good to me, he has come across at times to others as being slightly arrogant, although all round I’d say he is a pretty decent bloke, and you’d find much worse on the tour.

There’s no doubt he’s not at the moment top 50 material, and there was an oceans difference between him and Murray tonight, but, you say his game is horrible? I’d rather just simply say he hasn’t the weapons of some of the better players of the tour.

However he has a pretty decent first serve, which makes his ground strokes better as it allows him to start the point hitting the ball on his terms, and overall I’d say he has pretty good hands at net – he can volley better than 90% of the players in the top 100 these days ;) and a solid all court game, hence why he’s won a couple of double titles. He won 19/25 points at net tonight, against Murray, who granted, wasn’t in the form of his life tonight, but is still a pretty damn good defensive player when someone approaches him at the net.

If your questioning his strokes, What do you think of Isner and Karlovic making top 20 then?? Have you ever hit with Arthurs or Guccione? Cause I have, and their groundstrokes were pretty damn ordinary. They all had amazing serves, but apart from that they were pretty ordinary.

I will grant you that Ebdens 3 ATP quarter finals this year and his ATP doubles wins, occurred in rather “weak” ATP tournaments, which were lacking in top players. However, he has still been good enough to be the “best of the rest” and take his opportunities and has consistently outperformed players of his ranking in such tournaments. So kudos to him. Likewise, he's now joined an elite club that's made the top 100 in both singles and doubles, suggesting that he's a good all round player. An even smaller proportion of professional players achieve top 100 in both.

But what he will find difficult next year to keep his ranking up – is that if he wants to play the ATP circuit he won’t be able to avoid clay like he has this year. He's yet to play a tournament on clay this year. And to be honest, he’s not really going to win too many matches at ATP level on clay ;) unless he improves a hell of a lot. His game is just not suited to it.

Nicely said :)

The Magician
10-14-2011, 02:39 PM
I didn’t get a chance to respond to Filo V in the other thread so thought I might as well do it here.

I’m not going to question your character Filo V as a I don’t know you at all or anything about you, but I will question your credibility when you’re slagging others off on an anonymous internet forum.

I find it questionable when you’re slagging off top 100 tennis players. What was your highest ranking? How many ATP titles you have? (titles in the tipping forum on mens tennis forums don’t count ;) ) You don’t get a top 100 ATP pass in a wheaties box.

Sure, its questionable for someone like Ebden to make top 100, but as Action Jackson mentioned in the other thread, it doesn’t happen by accident. You need consistent results to get there, in either ATP or Challengers, and even more consistent results to stay there. You’re slagging off Kukishkin and Bogomolov – that I really don’t understand. Kukishkin has been inside the top 100 now for 18 months nearly – that doesn’t just happen by chance. Bogomolov is 38 in the world, with wins over top 10 players – that again doesn’t happen by chance.

Just because someone isn’t pretty to watch, doesn’t mean they are not talented or deserving to be in the top 100. Brad Gilbert will be the first person to back me up on that.You’re knocking guys saying that “hard work” alone shouldn’t get them to the top 100. Are you kidding me? The worlds Challenger and Futures tours are filled with guys oozing with talent, who wouldn’t know what hard work is, all because they’re too busy travelling the world, having a good time, going out and getting pissed during tournaments whilst living off mum and daddy’s money…..

Firstly, I know Matt and grew up playing tennis with him, I’m not really a close friend of his, and whilst I got along well with him and he was always good to me, he has come across at times to others as being slightly arrogant, although all round I’d say he is a pretty decent bloke, and you’d find much worse on the tour.

There’s no doubt he’s not at the moment top 50 material, and there was an oceans difference between him and Murray tonight, but, you say his game is horrible? I’d rather just simply say he hasn’t the weapons of some of the better players of the tour.

However he has a pretty decent first serve, which makes his ground strokes better as it allows him to start the point hitting the ball on his terms, and overall I’d say he has pretty good hands at net – he can volley better than 90% of the players in the top 100 these days ;) and a solid all court game, hence why he’s won a couple of double titles. He won 19/25 points at net tonight, against Murray, who granted, wasn’t in the form of his life tonight, but is still a pretty damn good defensive player when someone approaches him at the net.

If your questioning his strokes, What do you think of Isner and Karlovic making top 20 then?? Have you ever hit with Arthurs or Guccione? Cause I have, and their groundstrokes were pretty damn ordinary. They all had amazing serves, but apart from that they were pretty ordinary.

I will grant you that Ebdens 3 ATP quarter finals this year and his ATP doubles wins, occurred in rather “weak” ATP tournaments, which were lacking in top players. However, he has still been good enough to be the “best of the rest” and take his opportunities and has consistently outperformed players of his ranking in such tournaments. So kudos to him. Likewise, he's now joined an elite club that's made the top 100 in both singles and doubles, suggesting that he's a good all round player. An even smaller proportion of professional players achieve top 100 in both.

But what he will find difficult next year to keep his ranking up – is that if he wants to play the ATP circuit he won’t be able to avoid clay like he has this year. He's yet to play a tournament on clay this year. And to be honest, he’s not really going to win too many matches at ATP level on clay ;) unless he improves a hell of a lot. His game is just not suited to it.

I didn't read this but I assume it's ownage of flyboy :worship:

green25814
10-14-2011, 02:41 PM
Ebden is of the Simon mould, not much to his game but he knows tennis inside out, works incredibly hard and has an excellent mentality.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 02:49 PM
Davidrafael, your post I totally respect, but at the end of the day, I'm not a professional player, and these guys are. And some are better than others. Watching low talent players make the top 100 over talented players is not something I enjoy, nor will I ever do so. When I say a player sucks, it's relative to the place in their rankings in comparison to what there real ability level is, and also in comparison to their peers.

Bottom line is, Kukushkin, Dodig, Ebden among others, are bad players in relation to their peers and when looking at their rankings, ability wise, there isn't any reason to be there. Hard-work is all well and good, but that doesn't make a player talented nor interesting. I like players who bring something to the table. Hard-work is hard-work, but that's not bringing anything of note to the table on the court. It's not making me want to follow that player or watch them play. Can they play tennis? That's what I'm focused on. And some players play tennis better than others. That's all it comes down to.

StevoTG
10-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Great experience for Matt to go up against Murray and I think it will help him to continue improving as a player. That's a bit of a cliche, but his encounters with Nadal, Ferrer and Simon this year certainly haven't hampered him and I would think have really helped the belief that he's capable of playing on the ATP circuit.

I'm also glad to have another player in the top 100 who uses the forecourt.

green25814
10-14-2011, 02:55 PM
Filo V what do you think of the likes of Ferrer and Simon then?

Its fair enough to say you won't follow someone because you don't like their style but you shouldn't slag them off, appreciate the hard work.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 02:58 PM
Well, I was a little upset I slept through this, but I guess I didn't miss much- youtube highlights?

philosophicalarf
10-14-2011, 02:58 PM
Ebden wouldn't lose a game to the best club players you see. They'd struggle to win a point.

It's worth remembering this guy (deservedly) took a set off Ferrer last week ..... the world number 5, who is an absolute beast.

tennishero
10-14-2011, 03:03 PM
murray #3 is like wozniacki #1... a joke to the sport.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:10 PM
I respect the hard work but I don't appreciate they taking top 100 spots from talented players.

Ferrer and Simon bring something to the table. Ferrer is a putbull. Tenacious, fighter, emotive. And he's significantly more talented than the average grinder. Simon has a lot of talent.

green25814
10-14-2011, 03:14 PM
I respect the hard work but I don't appreciate they taking top 100 spots from talented players.

Ferrer and Simon bring something to the table. Ferrer is a putbull. Tenacious, fighter, emotive. Simon has a lot of talent.

Funny how every poster who says this happens to be gay/female :tape:

davidrafael
10-14-2011, 03:17 PM
Likewise, i now respect what you're saying, as you're being more civil about it and explaining what you mean, rather than just name calling....

Don't get me wrong, i don't find him particularly exciting to watch, same as Dodig, Kukishkin, etc, but it doesn't mean they're not talented.

I agree with you that he's not as talented as others in the top 100, but hey, he's only 80 in the world, so of course he's not gonna be as talented as ie; Murray. He's not as talented as other players outside the top 100, but the difference is he works hard, whilst the others are happy to tour around and have a good time, and live a relatively good life without ever really achieving their potential. That's exactly what Hewitt was saying about the aussie guys at the start of the year.

Just becuase they are not "shotmakers" doesn't mean they arent talented, it just means their talent lies in other areas. Look at Hewitt - can you not say his mental approach and frame of mind is not a "talent"?? Of course it is, but you can't see it...his inner workings in his mind, are not as visible as his shot making....

And the ability to work hard, in itself, is a talent.

Ebden believes in himself, and mentally has a good attitude. He's physically a very good Athlete. He's often balanced and in a good position to hit a shot. He has a nice build for tennis. He doesn't have any huge "shotmaking" weapons, i agree, or a shot that makes you go wow, but he is consistent, and has the ability to mix up his game.

Honestly, i should be one of the first people to say "geez if Ebden can be there, so can i" and im pretty sure theres alot of other very very good juniors from Australia (and around the world) who would be saying the same right now. The reality is, he is, and we're not. And he's done it by 23 years of age too which is pretty damn good in modern tennis these days, as people aren't normally breaking into it until later. On top of that, he finished high school, and was overlooked by Tennis Australia until he was 18/19 and started getting some results. There are other guys from Aus who quit school, got everything given to them by Tennis Australia, all the money, all the funding, all the coaches - get to 200/300, languish there for a few years, and then quit. Because theyre so used to having everything given to them.

Ebdens finished school and studies for an economic degree on the side whilst touring. He's got his head screwed on. He's stuck at it, worked hard, believed in himself and got there...so he deserves it. If there was one thing that i'd be teaching kids as a coach, it's hard work. Everyone hears the saying "hard work" but few people realise what it actually is.

He may not be as talented as others - but he's only 80 in the world, not Top 10. Having some talent and working your absolute ass off is enough to get you inside the top 100. Look at Luczak for example. Not Much talent, Ultra hard worker, when i say ultra, i mean ultra.

Having some talent and working your absolute ass off will always pay off more than bucketloads of talent which doesn't work hard. Why? Because when you've worked hard for something, the desire and hunger that develops becomes more important than talent which has everything given to it. Also those people who have bucketloads of talent never work hard enough to develop those talents or allow them to shine through.

Action Jackson
10-14-2011, 03:17 PM
I respect the hard work but I don't appreciate they taking top 100 spots from talented players.

Ferrer and Simon bring something to the table. Ferrer is a putbull. Tenacious, fighter, emotive. And he's significantly more talented than the average grinder. Simon has a lot of talent.

Simon has talent? Players playing the game at pro level have talent, if it was just hard work then any donkey would make it on tour. This is why we have rankings players who win matches and defend points deserve their spot in the top 100 whether you like them or not.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:20 PM
Simon is cute, I don't think he's overly hot. But he definitely has a lot of talent. The way he plays is very tough to maintain and he does so. Plus he can inject pace in hit shots and hit winners on the run and in defensive positions, and do so effortless (or so it appears). He's got gazelle like speed.

He's not one of my main favorites, but he brings something to the table. He has a game. And if you do that, then I'll like you. If you don't, I wont.

davidrafael
10-14-2011, 03:21 PM
Don't take it from me, Listen to what Murray has to say:

Murray, the second seed, said he was both familiar with Ebden's game and impressed by it. "I know quite a lot about him,'' Murray said. "He had a good start to the year. He qualified last week in Tokyo. I've seen him play a couple of times.

"He's got a nice game. He's quite effortless. He's talented.'

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ebden-on-the-rise-20111014-1lpb5.html#ixzz1alnBQkxI

HattonWBA
10-14-2011, 03:23 PM
I respect the hard work but I don't appreciate they taking top 100 spots from talented players.

Ferrer and Simon bring something to the table. Ferrer is a putbull. Tenacious, fighter, emotive. And he's significantly more talented than the average grinder. Simon has a lot of talent.

Your posts are ridiculous, I understand and appreciate your constructive criticism of ebden’s game but the talent remarks are pathetic. He plays tennis to win matches, prize money and therefore ranking points. But your comment about Ebden frustrating you because more talented players are lower ranked is laughable. What do you ant him to do? Tank matches and let more talented players (debatable of course with your tennis knowledge!) leap frog him. He may not be the most naturally gifted player out there, but who cares as long as his work ethic and application is always evident, that counts for as much as talent does in my estimation and can often be just the more endearing.

Davidrafael’s post was spot on by the way:worship:

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Simon has talent? Players playing the game at pro level have talent, if it was just hard work then any donkey would make it on tour. This is why we have rankings players who win matches and defend points deserve their spot in the top 100 whether you like them or not.

Yes, Simon has talent. Anyone who knows tennis knows he has talent, but people on this board generally don't know anything about tennis.

And I never said that these guys like Dodig or Ebden have no talent. I said they lack talent in relation to their rankings and contemporaries, and in relation to talented players who aren't in the top 100, who would be better in the top 100 as they bring something interesting to the court. Deserving a top 100 spot or not is irrelevant, since that isn't what I'm discussing. People should want the best top 100 there is, and have the best players playing the best players, not settle for mediocrity.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:29 PM
Likewise, i now respect what you're saying, as you're being more civil about it and explaining what you mean, rather than just name calling....

Don't get me wrong, i don't find him particularly exciting to watch, same as Dodig, Kukishkin, etc, but it doesn't mean they're not talented.

I agree with you that he's not as talented as others in the top 100, but hey, he's only 80 in the world, so of course he's not gonna be as talented as ie; Murray. He's not as talented as other players outside the top 100, but the difference is he works hard, whilst the others are happy to tour around and have a good time, and live a relatively good life without ever really achieving their potential. That's exactly what Hewitt was saying about the aussie guys at the start of the year.

Just becuase they are not "shotmakers" doesn't mean they arent talented, it just means their talent lies in other areas. Look at Hewitt - can you not say his mental approach and frame of mind is not a "talent"?? Of course it is, but you can't see it...his inner workings in his mind, are not as visible as his shot making....

And the ability to work hard, in itself, is a talent.

Ebden believes in himself, and mentally has a good attitude. He's physically a very good Athlete. He's often balanced and in a good position to hit a shot. He has a nice build for tennis. He doesn't have any huge "shotmaking" weapons, i agree, or a shot that makes you go wow, but he is consistent, and has the ability to mix up his game.

Honestly, i should be one of the first people to say "geez if Ebden can be there, so can i" and im pretty sure theres alot of other very very good juniors from Australia (and around the world) who would be saying the same right now. The reality is, he is, and we're not. And he's done it by 23 years of age too which is pretty damn good in modern tennis these days, as people aren't normally breaking into it until later. On top of that, he finished high school, and was overlooked by Tennis Australia until he was 18/19 and started getting some results. There are other guys from Aus who quit school, got everything given to them by Tennis Australia, all the money, all the funding, all the coaches - get to 200/300, languish there for a few years, and then quit. Because theyre so used to having everything given to them.

Ebdens finished school and studies for an economic degree on the side whilst touring. He's got his head screwed on. He's stuck at it, worked hard, believed in himself and got there...so he deserves it. If there was one thing that i'd be teaching kids as a coach, it's hard work. Everyone hears the saying "hard work" but few people realise what it actually is.

He may not be as talented as others - but he's only 80 in the world, not Top 10. Having some talent and working your absolute ass off is enough to get you inside the top 100. Look at Luczak for example. Not Much talent, Ultra hard worker, when i say ultra, i mean ultra.

Having some talent and working your absolute ass off will always pay off more than bucketloads of talent which doesn't work hard. Why? Because when you've worked hard for something, the desire and hunger that develops becomes more important than talent which has everything given to it. Also those people who have bucketloads of talent never work hard enough to develop those talents or allow them to shine through.Ebden is a nice guy, I like him as an individual from what I've seen. He seems chill, works hard, everything I've heard of him is positive, and your stories of him back that up.

With that said, I honestly don't care about hard work when it comes to players I follow and want to see. And players I want in the top 100. I want to see good tennis, and talented players. Everyone who makes the top 100 has some talent, but that doesn't mean they're talented in comparison to their peers. I watch and follow tennis to see good tennis and the good tennis comes from players who can play it. So therefore, guys who don't play as good of tennis being in ATP main draws while players with talent not being in the draws, I don't like it. Because it means guys who bring more than "hard work" to the table aren't there. Hard work doesn't make a player good, it just makes him a hard-worker.

Sapeod
10-14-2011, 03:30 PM
murray #3 is like wozniacki #1... a joke to the sport.
He's already been #3 :wavey: He's also been #2, higher than Nalbandian's peak :wavey: :superlol: No wonder you're so bitter :superlol:

HattonWBA
10-14-2011, 03:31 PM
Yes, Simon has talent. Anyone who knows tennis knows he has talent, but people on this board generally don't know anything about tennis.

And I never said that these guys like Dodig or Ebden have no talent. I said they lack talent in relation to their rankings and contemporaries, and in relation to talented players who aren't in the top 100, who would be better in the top 100 as they bring something interesting to the court. Deserving a top 100 spot or not is irrelevant, since that isn't what I'm discussing. People should want the best top 100 there is, and have the best players playing the best players, not settle for mediocrity.

I totally agree with the Gilles Simon assessment as I am a fan and also feel that his talent deserves more recognition on these boards then continuously being referred to as a pusher, however you persistence to mention the rankings is bemusing. The reason why the rankings are done a system were ranking points accumulate and take effect is so that the most deserving top 100 players are there, if there not the best then so be it, your argument will soon be to get all the players to do an evaluation balls drill and hand pick the ranking on ball striking ability. :confused:

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 03:32 PM
Funny how every poster who says this happens to be gay/female :tape:

Funny how straight guys and lesbians can't see talent. :hearts:

green25814
10-14-2011, 03:32 PM
Yes, Simon has talent. Anyone who knows tennis knows he has talent, but people on this board generally don't know anything about tennis.


There are plenty of ignorant people here, but what sets you apart? I've played tennis since the age of 8, and wanted to do it professionally but flaired my back. What have you done? Seriously stop being so arrogant FFS.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:33 PM
Your posts are ridiculous, I understand and appreciate your constructive criticism of ebden’s game but the talent remarks are pathetic. He plays tennis to win matches, prize money and therefore ranking points. But your comment about Ebden frustrating you because more talented players are lower ranked is laughable. What do you ant him to do? Tank matches and let more talented players (debatable of course with your tennis knowledge!) leap frog him. He may not be the most naturally gifted player out there, but who cares as long as his work ethic and application is always evident, that counts for as much as talent does in my estimation and can often be just the more endearing.

My tennis knowledge is above about 95% of the forum, so there isn't any debate in what I'm saying. I'm not even being disrespectful, he's earned his position, I respect that. He's doing what he has to do, yeah, win matches, but I WISH he wouldn't have won those matches so he could remain out of the top 100. So, I'm not hating on him being there, but the situation itself. And as for hard work, I don't watch tennis to see hard-workers, I see tennis to watch talented professionals playing the game. So, of course, I going to root against lesser talents making the top 100 and be a little bitter should they make it.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 03:34 PM
Don't take it from me, Listen to what Murray has to say:

Murray, the second seed, said he was both familiar with Ebden's game and impressed by it. "I know quite a lot about him,'' Murray said. "He had a good start to the year. He qualified last week in Tokyo. I've seen him play a couple of times.

"He's got a nice game. He's quite effortless. He's talented.'

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ebden-on-the-rise-20111014-1lpb5.html#ixzz1alnBQkxI

Andy's so classy :inlove:

Sapeod
10-14-2011, 03:34 PM
Don't take it from me, Listen to what Murray has to say:

Murray, the second seed, said he was both familiar with Ebden's game and impressed by it. "I know quite a lot about him,'' Murray said. "He had a good start to the year. He qualified last week in Tokyo. I've seen him play a couple of times.

"He's got a nice game. He's quite effortless. He's talented.'

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ebden-on-the-rise-20111014-1lpb5.html#ixzz1alnBQkxI
Ebden sounds like a good player according to Andy. Sounds pretty talented.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:35 PM
There are plenty of ignorant people here, but what sets you apart? I've played tennis since the age of 8, and wanted to do it professionally but flaired my back. What have you done? Seriously stop being so arrogant FFS.

My tennis knowledge, and knowledge in general, sets me apart.

You've never been one of the many stupid ones, though. So you shouldn't take offense, since I'm not talking about you.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 03:36 PM
Players say nice things about each other, in being PC. So, take almost everything they say with a grain of salt.

green25814
10-14-2011, 03:38 PM
My tennis knowledge, and knowledge in general, sets me apart.
You've never been one of the many stupid ones, though. So you shouldn't take offense, since I'm not talking about you.

Look, I'm not taking offense personally but do you not see how comments like these might irritate people? Jeez :stupid:

GOAT = Fed
10-14-2011, 03:39 PM
Davidrafael, your post I totally respect, but at the end of the day, I'm not a professional player, and these guys are. And some are better than others. Watching low talent players make the top 100 over talented players is not something I enjoy, nor will I ever do so. When I say a player sucks, it's relative to the place in their rankings in comparison to what there real ability level is, and also in comparison to their peers.

Bottom line is, Kukushkin, Dodig, Ebden among others, are bad players in relation to their peers and when looking at their rankings, ability wise, there isn't any reason to be there. Hard-work is all well and good, but that doesn't make a player talented nor interesting. I like players who bring something to the table. Hard-work is hard-work, but that's not bringing anything of note to the table on the court. It's not making me want to follow that player or watch them play. Can they play tennis? That's what I'm focused on. And some players play tennis better than others. That's all it comes down to.

But shouldn't you applaud variety? Watching players play a tennis masterclass match every single time would get boring too. It's better to have variety and see different game styles being used.

Action Jackson
10-14-2011, 03:40 PM
Yes, Simon has talent. Anyone who knows tennis knows he has talent, but people on this board generally don't know anything about tennis.

And I never said that these guys like Dodig or Ebden have no talent. I said they lack talent in relation to their rankings and contemporaries, and in relation to talented players who aren't in the top 100, who would be better in the top 100 as they bring something interesting to the court. Deserving a top 100 spot or not is irrelevant, since that isn't what I'm discussing. People should want the best top 100 there is, and have the best players playing the best players, not settle for mediocrity.

You missed my point. You don't make it to the tour if you don't have some of talent, no matter how hard you work, this is clear.

Yes, you are denigrating players who win matches deserving their ranking cause you don't like them. Got a proposition for you. Will you not react when someone bags a player you like? If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be go around saying this player has nothing to offer.

There are no extra points for talent or looking good. Results judge who is in the top 100, nothing more and nothing less.

Ebden deserves his QF spot here as a qualifier because he won matches it wasn't cause of mediocrity. Why post here to rip on his result, when you'd be first to complain others are haters.

HattonWBA
10-14-2011, 03:40 PM
My tennis knowledge is above about 95% of the forum, so there isn't any debate in what I'm saying. I'm not even being disrespectful, he's earned his position, I respect that. He's doing what he has to do, yeah, win matches, but I WISH he wouldn't have won those matches so he could remain out of the top 100. So, I'm not hating on him being there, but the situation itself. And as for hard work, I don't watch tennis to see hard-workers, I see tennis to watch talented professionals playing the game. So, of course, I going to root against lesser talents making the top 100 and be a little bitter should they make it.

I understand that. And your opinion is absolutely fine as are anyone’s, and i generally find no problems with your posts, in fact quite the opposite.

However on this specific subject i don’t understand the need to continuously moan about Ebden's ranking in relation to his talent on every thread made with his name on. Maybe you should be focusing more on criticising these more talented guys instead? Why are they not getting to MS QF's, why are they not 80 in the world? What can they improve to surpass ebden’s achievements and reflect their superiority?

davidrafael
10-14-2011, 03:50 PM
I understand your point Filo that you don't want to watch hardworkers which arent shotmakers. I respect that. But no one is asking you to go and watch them. Just don't go slagging their achivements off or saying they don't deserve their ranking. And just because you don't like to watch them doesn't mean they don't have talent.

As you've mentioned you understand quite alot about tennis, then surely you would understand theres many more facets that complete a tennis player other than just raw shotmaking.

Gublis is a raw shotmaker, why's he 51 in the world? Why is Bogomolov 38?

Who would i rather go watch, Gulbis or Bogomolov? Gulbis because he brings shotmaking, flair and personality to the game, but that doesn't undermine Bogomolov's achivements in the game.

Sham Kay
10-14-2011, 04:10 PM
Why is everyone arguing with someone who thinks numerous players in the top 100 have no talent and that hard workers don't deserve to be higher ranked than mentally frail/physically weak/lazy talented players?

It's not that the majority of MTF lacks tennis knowledge, it's actually the minority that stand out due to the rubbish etched all over their posts and drag everyone else down with them. Just look at this thread as an example, 1 or 2 who don't have a clue but mask it with fake confidence, while the rest who actually know what they're talking about set them straight.

Anyway, Ebden deserves whatever he achieves as Tennis is about making the most of what you have, developing your game and winning, not the capacity of your talent. He played great this week and will more that likely improve from here.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 04:20 PM
Apparently everyone missed the thread where Filo extolled the virtues of greed and condemn the evils of government and public goods. It's best just to put him on ignore.

Lurking
10-14-2011, 04:21 PM
Curious a Nadal tard would bitch about players lacking talent and getting by on hard work.

james82
10-14-2011, 04:24 PM
Players say nice things about each other, in being PC. So, take almost everything they say with a grain of salt.

why did u have to come into the thread? there was no need for it
we know u hate ebden ,get over it

green25814
10-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Curious a Nadal tard would bitch about players lacking talent and getting by on hard work.

He also likes Simon.

And is gay.

Think about it.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 04:30 PM
He also likes Simon.

And is gay.

Think about it.

Um, gays have taste and would never be Nadaltards because he is hideous.:confused:

delboy
10-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Exactly the score I predicted in the pre match. damn I'm good

Mechlan
10-14-2011, 04:47 PM
My tennis knowledge is above about 95% of the forum, so there isn't any debate in what I'm saying. I'm not even being disrespectful, he's earned his position, I respect that. He's doing what he has to do, yeah, win matches, but I WISH he wouldn't have won those matches so he could remain out of the top 100. So, I'm not hating on him being there, but the situation itself. And as for hard work, I don't watch tennis to see hard-workers, I see tennis to watch talented professionals playing the game. So, of course, I going to root against lesser talents making the top 100 and be a little bitter should they make it.

This post is all kinds of fail. Yes, you are hating, yes you are being disrespectful. Obviously you don't see it like that. Others have mostly covered it, but briefly if I told you that some close friend or family member of yours was the definition of mediocrity and wish he didn't have the position he rightfully earned, wouldn't you be a little pissed? Most normal people would.

Not that you don't have the right to like the players you like and to wish that THEY were doing better, but that's different from insulting players that did earn their position fairly and hoping for them to fall. That is being a hater.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 04:52 PM
I wouldn't care if you had a wrong and disrespectful opinion in saying one of my friends/family members were mediocre and undeserving of whatever they earned. My friend/family member would simply see you as trash and ignore you accordingly.

Honesty isn't hating. I never said anything hateful nor disrespectful. That's the difference between that situation and this situation.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 04:55 PM
Curious a Nadal tard would bitch about players lacking talent and getting by on hard work.

Rafa has a lot of talent. A whole hell of a lot. Which, again, is something people would know, if they knew tennis.

But even so, I like seeing Federer at his peak more than Rafa. Or Tsonga at his peak. In any case, that's real talent. And that is what I want to see on the court and want to see doing well.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 04:58 PM
I totally agree with the Gilles Simon assessment as I am a fan and also feel that his talent deserves more recognition on these boards then continuously being referred to as a pusher, however you persistence to mention the rankings is bemusing. The reason why the rankings are done a system were ranking points accumulate and take effect is so that the most deserving top 100 players are there, if there not the best then so be it, your argument will soon be to get all the players to do an evaluation balls drill and hand pick the ranking on ball striking ability. :confused:

I mention the rankings a lot because the rankings are important. The top 100 players are the ones making the ATP events and majors. And I want to see GOOD tennis and GOOD players in these events, so therefore, I want to see talented players in the top 100 and lesser talents out of the top 100 so I can see the best tennis with the most interesting players and players who bring something of note to the courts.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:01 PM
Look, I'm not taking offense personally but do you not see how comments like these might irritate people? Jeez :stupid:

My signature says it all.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:05 PM
But shouldn't you applaud variety? Watching players play a tennis masterclass match every single time would get boring too. It's better to have variety and see different game styles being used.

I applaud talent. That includes having variety. Like Llodra. He's talented and I like him accordingly.

NJ88
10-14-2011, 05:05 PM
murray #3 is like wozniacki #1... a joke to the sport.

How exactly?

Murray is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone outside the top four. He's done far better this year than Fed has. Reaching a GS Final and three other semi's then also winning a masters (soon to be another one likely) whereas Fed hasn't won anything has he?

Murray played well here. Pretty straight forward as I thought it would be. Onto the next match!

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
Apparently everyone missed the thread where Filo extolled the virtues of greed and condemn the evils of government and public goods. It's best just to put him on ignore.

Great, I don't wish to talk to the majority of you anyway.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 05:10 PM
How exactly?

Murray is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone outside the top four. He's done far better this year than Fed has. Reaching a GS Final and three other semi's then also winning a masters (soon to be another one likely) whereas Fed hasn't won anything has he?

Murray played well here. Pretty straight forward as I thought it would be. Onto the next match!

:worship:

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:12 PM
You missed my point. You don't make it to the tour if you don't have some of talent, no matter how hard you work, this is clear.

Yes, you are denigrating players who win matches deserving their ranking cause you don't like them. Got a proposition for you. Will you not react when someone bags a player you like? If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be go around saying this player has nothing to offer.

There are no extra points for talent or looking good. Results judge who is in the top 100, nothing more and nothing less.

Ebden deserves his QF spot here as a qualifier because he won matches it wasn't cause of mediocrity. Why post here to rip on his result, when you'd be first to complain others are haters.

I never said "no talent" as an overall judgment of these players, I said talent in relation to their peers, they lack talent. Which is a fact. And no, I'm not denigrating them, I'm being honest. Honesty isn't denigration, it's blunt, it's sometimes hurtful to others, but it's real.

Talented players not taking advantage and getting results is frustration and unacceptable. It's their job to handle their business and take out these other dudes. No more, no less. The fact they don't do it consistently is the problem.

When people bag players I like they're doing it to try to offend me, and it doesn't work, because it's pathetic and petty. What I say is with no malice to anyone in particular, it's just truthful things. If people can't handle that, it's their problem.

EddceLLent
10-14-2011, 05:14 PM
Haha. Excuse me for rooting against you on the basis that you're not so naturally talented at arguing but have redeemed yourself somewhat through putting the effort in. You may now be in the MTF top 100 of debaters, but i'd still prefer if someone less dedicated but more talented came along... ;)

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:14 PM
He also likes Simon.

And is gay.

Think about it.

Just because gay men have good taste in attractiveness, doesn't mean I like tennis players for their looks. It's just a coincidence. And I don't really find Simon or Nadal overly attractive.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:19 PM
I understand that. And your opinion is absolutely fine as are anyone’s, and i generally find no problems with your posts, in fact quite the opposite.

However on this specific subject i don’t understand the need to continuously moan about Ebden's ranking in relation to his talent on every thread made with his name on. Maybe you should be focusing more on criticising these more talented guys instead? Why are they not getting to MS QF's, why are they not 80 in the world? What can they improve to surpass ebden’s achievements and reflect their superiority?

Thank you, I'm glad you like my posts. And I am very critical of players like Bolelli for example, one of my main faves, who is a dumbass and wasting his career. I'm very critical and I get very disappointed in him over and over again. The thing is, though, that with guys like Bolelli not in the top 100, who replaces them? Mediocre players. That's the problem. The problem is these mediocre players are taking up spots that talented players should and would take, if they had their shit together.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:24 PM
I understand your point Filo that you don't want to watch hardworkers which arent shotmakers. I respect that. But no one is asking you to go and watch them. Just don't go slagging their achivements off or saying they don't deserve their ranking. And just because you don't like to watch them doesn't mean they don't have talent.

As you've mentioned you understand quite alot about tennis, then surely you would understand theres many more facets that complete a tennis player other than just raw shotmaking.

It's not even about watching them more than they are taking up spots that players that have more ability and bring more to the tour should have, if they weren't underachieving. Also, I never said they had no talent, I said they lack talent in relation to their ranking and in comparison to guys not in the top 100/around them in the rankings.

There is more facets to tennis than shotmaking but it's shotmaking that makes a player talented. That and movement are the two main things. So therefore, that's who I want to see in the draws, talented, athletic players who are interesting. As for the deserving rankings thing, the way I see it is that if the talented players were on their shit, then they would take those spots, so if anything it's their fault that they are where they should be and replacing these mediocre players.

davidrafael
10-14-2011, 05:44 PM
The problem is these mediocre players are taking up spots that talented players should and would take, if they had their shit together.

"Should, Would, If".....bottom line is, theyre not. Bolleli's own fault he's wasting his talent. Not Ebdens. Ebdens own fault that he's maximising his own talents/what he has...

players that have more ability and bring more to the tour should have, if they weren't underachieving.

Again talking should have's....but theyre not. They're underachieving. And as i've been saying this whole time, talent which doesnt work hard IS underachieving. It's like saying "Miles Kasiri should be top 100 now, he was ridiculously talented, there's a spot there waiting for him but mediocre players have taken it.." But where is he now???

And what were his criticisms? His coaches mentioned that he didn't wanna work hard.

That and movement are the two main things

Agree on the importance of movement and shotmaking. But you've totally discounted the mental part of the game. Any high standard coach will tell you that's by far the most important. Particularly when by the time the players make top 100, theyre all moving pretty damn good, and they all hit a pretty high standard of shots, and a pretty decent rally ball.

The difference comes down to playing to a high level and being able to sustain that for periods of time, to self belief and believing that you can outmatch a better player on the big points. Also comes down to knowledge of the game, how you read the play, how you can exploit weaknesses, how you can run your patterns and execute your patterns on the big points.

Have seen on many occasions players who had the big flashy game but are absolute fruitcakes who underachieved their whole career cause they couldnt keep it together mentally. On the flip side, i've also seen many players who have been called "ugly" or having "no game" who have "overachieved" and had solid careers cause they have it together mentally.

The other thing regarding peoples talents. You can't really comment on how much someone has developed their talent until the end of the career. If you took Verkerk as an example, you would have a different opinion of how he was using his talent at age 22 for example when he was a journeyman, compared to the end of his career when he had made quite a respectable career for himself.

Filo V.
10-14-2011, 05:54 PM
I agree, it is the fault of the talented players to not fully take advantage of it and do what they should do. But that doesn't mean I'm happy that lesser talents take their place, because the only reason they're there is because of the talented players not getting the job done. The talented players deserve criticism. I'm not critical of guys like Ebden "not deserving" a top 100 spot, but the situation of they being top 100, and not talented players like Bolelli.

Verkerk is a guy who always had talent. He's not like someone like Dodig, who doesn't have a lot of talent. He's a talent who became a player. That's different than a mediocre talent overachieving. That's a guy doing what he should have been doing long before.

Mentality, hard work, these things are obviously important and in many/most cases what separates guys who rise and guys who fall. But none of those things are talents. It's not a talent to be mentally strong. Talent is athleticism, shotmaking ability, ability to play great tennis consistently (or at all). And that is what separates guys like Bolelli from guys like Ebden. Simone can do things Ebden never could, so therefore, I'd want to see him in a draw rather than Ebden, and the fact guys like Ebden are in the draws and he isn't causes a bit of resent and definite disappointment, because it's bullshit. And it's the fault of these talented guys for not handling their business. That's really all it comes down to.

Ilovetheblues_86
10-14-2011, 05:56 PM
Tennis is like a videogame...

some players like Gulbis has 100 in almost every status.

Others like Ebden has 70/75 etc.


The difference is that Ebden is usually played by a nerd-top spin 7 fan while Gulbis is being played by your grandma.

Think about that.

EddceLLent
10-14-2011, 06:07 PM
Tennis is like a videogame...

some players like Gulbis has 100 in almost every status.

Others like Ebden has 70/75 etc.


The difference is that Ebden is usually played by a nerd-top spin 7 fan while Gulbis is being played by your grandma.

Think about that.

I'm thinking very hard about this...and i'm still struggling a bit...

Saberq
10-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Tennis is like a videogame...

some players like Gulbis has 100 in almost every status.

Others like Ebden has 70/75 etc.


The difference is that Ebden is usually played by a nerd-top spin 7 fan while Gulbis is being played by your grandma.

Think about that.

this is maybe the best post I ever read in my life

EddceLLent
10-14-2011, 06:23 PM
this is maybe the best post I ever read in my life

I think for once in my life I agree with you :)

decrepitude
10-14-2011, 07:24 PM
I confess I have never taken any interest in the ACC - so please tell me, is Filo V. top seed?

n8
10-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Andy's so classy :inlove:

Minus the repeated and yelled profanities at 2-2 in the 1st set. He should've received a violation for that.

MuzzahLovah
10-14-2011, 10:08 PM
Minus the repeated and yelled profanities at 2-2 in the 1st set. He should've received a violation for that.

He's so sexy when he's angry :hearts: Also, he never yells them at his opponents or the umpire, just at himself, because he is so classy :worship:

Topspindoctor
10-15-2011, 12:40 AM
Expected result, unfortunately. Edben has nothing to hurt Pushray with, just hand the big mouth another title :zzz:

james82
10-15-2011, 01:20 AM
I agree, it is the fault of the talented players to not fully take advantage of it and do what they should do. But that doesn't mean I'm happy that lesser talents take their place, because the only reason they're there is because of the talented players not getting the job done. The talented players deserve criticism. I'm not critical of guys like Ebden "not deserving" a top 100 spot, but the situation of they being top 100, and not talented players like Bolelli.

Verkerk is a guy who always had talent. He's not like someone like Dodig, who doesn't have a lot of talent. He's a talent who became a player. That's different than a mediocre talent overachieving. That's a guy doing what he should have been doing long before.

Mentality, hard work, these things are obviously important and in many/most cases what separates guys who rise and guys who fall. But none of those things are talents. It's not a talent to be mentally strong. Talent is athleticism, shotmaking ability, ability to play great tennis consistently (or at all). And that is what separates guys like Bolelli from guys like Ebden. Simone can do things Ebden never could, so therefore, I'd want to see him in a draw rather than Ebden, and the fact guys like Ebden are in the draws and he isn't causes a bit of resent and definite disappointment, because it's bullshit. And it's the fault of these talented guys for not handling their business. That's really all it comes down to.

lucky u didnt follow tennis in the 90s than

Asadinator
10-15-2011, 01:25 AM
Filo V., why are you crying over tennis results? Pathetic really.

james82
10-15-2011, 01:42 AM
Filo V., why are you crying over tennis results? Pathetic really.

something also tells me hes never watched a ebden match in his life :P

Action Jackson
10-15-2011, 01:44 AM
I never said "no talent" as an overall judgment of these players, I said talent in relation to their peers, they lack talent. Which is a fact. And no, I'm not denigrating them, I'm being honest. Honesty isn't denigration, it's blunt, it's sometimes hurtful to others, but it's real.

Talented players not taking advantage and getting results is frustration and unacceptable. It's their job to handle their business and take out these other dudes. No more, no less. The fact they don't do it consistently is the problem.

When people bag players I like they're doing it to try to offend me, and it doesn't work, because it's pathetic and petty. What I say is with no malice to anyone in particular, it's just truthful things. If people can't handle that, it's their problem.

Tennis isn't a talent contest. Yes, you are denigrating them, hell I dislike I lot of players but if they're winning then their spots are deserved whether I like it or not.

Not everyone was born equal, so got to maximise your talents some players do this and others don't. No, they aren't, believe it or not there are people that don't like the same players you do. It's honest and truthful to them.

Basically this thread has hardly become about the match or Ebden' excellent week, it's you whining about this result and reactions to it.

BroTree123
10-15-2011, 02:07 AM
When it comes to living life in general,
Ebden > Filo V. :shrug:

james82
10-15-2011, 02:40 AM
When it comes to living life in general,
Ebden > Filo V. :shrug:

it doesnt matter what he says anymore ,ebden top 80 2 aussies in the top 100 :)
i wonder when the last time this happened (was it hewitt/tomic? or luczak/hewitt?)