What do you think of Palestinian statehood bid [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

What do you think of Palestinian statehood bid

@Sweet Cleopatra
09-23-2011, 10:04 PM
Asking for a country in 67 borders, peacefully in the UN. Don't you think it is good for peace and everyone including Israelis? :)
Have you seen Mr. Abas speech?

JolánGagó
09-23-2011, 10:06 PM
Mr Barak Hussein Obama said NO, so whatever we think is utterly irrelevant.

BigJohn
09-23-2011, 10:24 PM
No statehood, no peace.

Condicio sine qua non...

Bilbo
09-23-2011, 10:57 PM
I think it is the best Abbas can do. He is forcing the USA and Israel to say 'No' infront of the whole world. It decreases their credibility and shows their real faces. Both countries fail to stick to their own politics, which isoltes them more and more from the rest of the world. Israel's support by other countries and credibility is decreasing by the day. Abbas and Turkey need to continue the pressure on Israel. You can already feel how they start to crack down. Their time has come.

selyoink
09-24-2011, 01:02 AM
The Palestinians should have a state. End of story. All the UN bid is going to do is show beyond all doubt that the US has no credibility left as a non-partisan interlocutor.

I'll be interested to see how the European nations on the Security Council vote. If France and UK support it will make the US look even worse. Germany seems certain not to vote for it.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 03:45 AM
The Palestinians should have a state. End of story. All the UN bid is going to do is show beyond all doubt that the US has no credibility left as a non-partisan interlocutor.

I'll be interested to see how the European nations on the Security Council vote. If France and UK support it will make the US look even worse. Germany seems certain not to vote for it.

The Palestinian government called Bin Laden a hero for all the things he did and hoped to do. That includes killing you and me.

The poor Palestinians are now just the puppets of Iran and Iran is devoted to the destruction of Israel.
I say give Palestine a state when Germany and the Arab nations give the Jews back the homes and lands they were evicted from.

Mjau!
09-24-2011, 04:11 AM
Israel are occupying land they have no right to. Israel are bulldozing palestinian homes and building racially pure, jewish only colonies and putting the homeless palestinians in conce... eh, "refugee camps". Israel are treating the palestinians like sub-humans. The West bank and Gaza are akin to king sized, nazi ghettos. Buddyholly would probably have supported the colonial powers against the native "terrorists" and the nazis against the polish resistance movement. The SS had a right to defend themselves!

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 01:25 PM
Give them statehood.

The Palestinians hope that full or partial U.N. recognition of Palestine as an independent state could give them the power to bring the Israeli government or its officials before war-crimes tribunals or sue them in other global venues.

Israeli officials warn with increasing alarm that the waging of such "lawfare" would isolate the Jewish state and prevent its civilian and military leaders from traveling abroad out of fear they'd be arrested as war criminals.

The palenstinians will have legal rights, this is good for any people.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/22/us-un-assembly-legal-idUSTRE78L50820110922

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 02:13 PM
Israel are occupying land they have no right to. Israel are bulldozing palestinian homes and building racially pure, jewish only colonies and putting the homeless palestinians in conce... eh, "refugee camps". Israel are treating the palestinians like sub-humans. The West bank and Gaza are akin to king sized, nazi ghettos. Buddyholly would probably have supported the colonial powers against the native "terrorists" and the nazis against the polish resistance movement. The SS had a right to defend themselves!

What is their alternative against being surrounded by people whose stated aim is to wipe them off the map?
I think it very ironic that when the UN was founded to stop something like the holocaust ever happening again, it has now evolved to where we have the leader of Iran stand on its podium and declare the holocaust never happened, the USA caused both world wars, 9/11 was an inside job etc.

Your post refers to me, but my post referred to the expulsion of Jews from Germany, the expulsion of Jews from surrounding Arab states, the Palestinian leader claiming Bin Laden was a hero of our times, and the Palestinians now being puppets of Iran's criminal regime. Those parallels and the kind of country now on Israel's borders are conveniently ignored by people who pile on Israel. Syria, killing its own citizens. Iran, killing its own citizens. Saudi Arabia, ruled by despots that could not care less about human rights.

Equating the West bank to a Nazi ghetto just shows you have no grasp of reality at all. The Nazi ghettos, if you recall, were to keep people in. Suggesting that I would have supported the Nazis just indicates how ridiculous your arguments are. I am a bit ashamed of even replying to your claims. But unfortunately, the way of the least persuasive posters on MTF is just to slur the poster with lies and ignore the content of the post. If I were to claim that you probably would consider the holocaust to have been a necessary cleansing and the present objective of the Palestinians to continue the good works of the holocaust a laudable mission, I would be rightly accused of being an idiot. But you probably think that attempting to do the same to me was ''clever.'' Some of my relatives fought and died against the Nazis, so what you suggest, I think, is vile. I guess I will forgive your youth and lack of perspective.

So, preferably without the diversion of putting ridiculous thoughts in my head, do you have any comment on the roughly 800,000 Jews that were kicked out of surrounding Arab countries simply for being Jews? Where should they go? Should Israel be wiped off the map, as the Iranian leader proposed? And BTW, your post talks about building racially pure, Jewish colonies. If true, wouldn't that just be an adaptation to Middle Eastern ways?

Chase Visa
09-24-2011, 02:16 PM
Yes the Palestine's should have statehood. Even if that means the destruction of Israel.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 02:30 PM
Give them statehood.



The palenstinians will have legal rights, this is good for any people.



Do you mean they will enjoy the same legal rights as the Iranian, Saudi, and Syrian people? Wow, I bet they can't wait. It has been a joy to citizens of those countries to be able to express their opinions freely. They just have do it alone in a small locked room with no windows.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 02:36 PM
Yes the Palestine's should have statehood. Even if that means the destruction of Israel.

An honest opinion, at least.

But isn't it an equally persuasive argument is that the Israelis should have security, even if it means the destruction of Iran, Syria and the Palestinians?

From all the reasons you have given you might even argue that since there are more Israelis than Palestinians, the simplest solution would be the destruction of Palestine.

I think it is more complicated than that.

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 02:45 PM
Do you mean they will enjoy the same legal rights as the Iranian, Saudi, and Syrian people? Wow, I bet they can't wait. It has been a joy to citizens of those countries to be able to express their opinions freely. They just have do it alone in a small locked room with no windows.

Isreal may have problems with this statehood bid by the Palenstinians but you can't keep people down for your own gain, it shows Israel's character which is plain to see for the world.

They are trying to deny the Palenstinians their rights, as they always had.
If Israel goes down it's good, we don't need these kind of regimes that take away rights from people.

It doesn't matter how the palenstinians express their opinions, but they have the right to do so.

I'd like to see you walk in their shoes for awhile.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 02:59 PM
They are trying to deny the Palenstinians their rights, as they always had.
If Israel goes down it's good, we don't need these kind of regimes that take away rights from people.



You mean the right to annihilate them?

I must have missed your call that it would be good for Syria, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Cuba, China, Pakistan, Eritrea, Somalia and 100 others to ''go down.'' But who would we give them to?

My position has not been that Israel is a model state, but a confusion as to why all the people who call for Israel's downfall prefer to ignore the situation in countless other countries around the world that make the Israelis look like saints. That is what I do not understand. No, I would not like to walk in the Palestinian's shoes right now, but it is fairly meaningless for you to say that you would like to see me walk in the Palestinians' shoes for a while at the same time you fret less about walking in the shoes of a much, much greater number the world's population that is in much more dire straits. And fervently wish to give the Palestinian the right to walk in the shoes of a regime like Syria or Iran. I doubt the West Bank Palestinians would even want that in exchange for what they have now. It only leads me to suspect that the putting of Israel on top of the list of human rights violators has an agenda other than just human rights violation.

So that is basically my problem. Why Israel? And if it is because other countries have the right to do what they please within their own borders, I would remind you that the same UN that is being asked to support the destruction of Israel is the same UN that gave birth to Israel. The fact that the borders may have changed because of aggression against Israel since its inception does not make Israel illegitimate.

And as for my post that actually was about Palestinians being the puppets of states where it is not permitted to express one's own opinions and where people don't have rights, you just chose to ignore addressing that. I understand that it would be difficult to say that the Palestinians need to live in a state like Iran or Syria where they would be able to enjoy all the human rights they want. So best just to ignore that part, right?

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 03:09 PM
You mean the right to annihilate them?

I must have missed your call that it would be good for Syria, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Cuba, China, Pakistan, Eritrea, Somalia and 100 others to ''go down.'' But who would we give them to?

There's a lot of problem areas in the world, but we're talking about Israel and Palenstine.

I don't care what happens to Israel, just that Palenstine gets statehood.

Israel is already talking about having problems with some of it's people in power not being able to leave because they have been convicted of war crimes. This looks very close to an admission to me, don't you think?

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 03:33 PM
The Palestinian government called Bin Laden a hero for all the things he did and hoped to do. That includes killing you and me.

The poor Palestinians are now just the puppets of Iran and Iran is devoted to the destruction of Israel.

I say give Palestine a state when Germany and the Arab nations give the Jews back the homes and lands they were evicted from.

Their statehood should have no strings attached, this kind of bargaining just confuses the issue.

Why should the Palenstinian people have to rely on another country to do something to have it's rights?

Think about things before posting.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 03:38 PM
There's a lot of problem areas in the world, but we're talking about Israel and Palenstine.

I don't care what happens to Israel, just that Palenstine gets statehood.

Israel is already talking about having problems with some of it's people in power not being able to leave because they have been convicted of war crimes. This looks very close to an admission to me, don't you think?

But why are we always talking about Israel, not just in this forum, but generally? Why do we care less about much more blatant crimes? Why are Israel's violations more important than Syria's? How many Palestinians have been killed by Assad in recent months? Why is that less infuriating than Palestinians being killed by Israelis?

Which people in power have been convicted of war crimes, BTW?

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 03:44 PM
Their statehood should have no strings attached, this kind of bargaining just confuses the issue.

Why should the Palenstinian people have to rely on another country to do something to have it's rights?

Think about things before posting.

I did think. Unlike you, I try to avoid just posting links to crank websites without reading them first. Saying that there should be no strings attached to Palestinian statehood is unrealistic. I say the first string to be attached is that it not be a state with an avowed objective of wiping Israel off the map.
I can't help but think that your line of reasoning implies that, from a neutral point of observation, Israel would be justified in just putting the obliteration of Palestinians into its constitution and then just go out and do it. Or alternatively, once a Palestinian state exists with a constitution that calls for the destructiuon of Israel, then Israel would be fully justified in obliterating the new state. I find neither options to make sense.

I think it perfectly reasonable to require that a new Palestine does not declare its intentions to wage war on a neighbour.

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 04:14 PM
But why are we always talking about Israel, not just in this forum, but generally? Why do we care less about much more blatant crimes? Why are Israel's violations more important than Syria's? How many Palestinians have been killed by Assad in recent months? Why is that less infuriating than Palestinians being killed by Israelis?

Which people in power have been convicted of war crimes, BTW?

Israel has the backing of the USA, and they are doing things that the USA generally opposes. So it's a big topic everywhere.

Many who back Israel bring up other problems in the world, I see it everywhere and it's supposed to make Israel look better.
If you are concerned about these other nations not being talked about then make a thread.

Israel is somewhat modern, it's sickening to see them use their power for land grabs, they only care about themselves.

They have also attached an agenda to the jewish religion, no longer is it only a religion to praise their god but has material(land) conquests part of it. This leaves the jewish religion open to descent and hurts those jewish people who really only want to practice their religion. It's pitiful.

Israel has the idea that because jewish people lived there a long time ago they have some rights to the land.

To be clear:
Just because they have the same religion as people who lived there before gives no rights to land.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 05:45 PM
They have also attached an agenda to the jewish religion, no longer is it only a religion to praise their god but has material(land) conquests part of it. This leaves the jewish religion open to descent and hurts those jewish people who really only want to practice their religion. It's pitiful.



Well, isn't that just a case of ''when in the Middle East do as the Middle Easteners.'' I am an atheist and don't care for the harm that religion does, but singling out Israel just doesn't make sense to me, considering who their neighbours are. It shows anti-Jewish bias.

I guess I just really shudder at the idea of giving statehood to a government that believes blowing me to bits in a random act of terror would be a noble deed. Taking that route would just lead me to believe I had become another of Iran's useful idiots.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 05:51 PM
Israel has the backing of the USA, and they are doing things that the USA generally opposes. So it's a big topic everywhere.

Many who back Israel bring up other problems in the world, I see it everywhere and it's supposed to make Israel look better.
If you are concerned about these other nations not being talked about then make a thread.



Ah, so if you don't have the backing of the USA you can do anything and it won't be a big topic anywhere.

I thought about a thread about, say, China's over-running of Tibet, but concluded that it is no longer trendy, so who here would care? Especially since it doesn't really offer much possibility of blaming the US.

@Sweet Cleopatra
09-24-2011, 05:59 PM
buddyholly, what would you do if you were Palestinian just asking for a country like everyone else in the world? There are many bad stuff in that area, but, Why should Palestinians pay the full price of everything wrong in middle east. Even when they have nothing to do with it.

This bid isn't against Israelis, they already have a country. Now, it's time for Palestinians too to have their own country. This will also be a push for peace in the whole area. I don't see any valid reason not to support this peaceful step.

swisht4u
09-24-2011, 06:25 PM
Well, isn't that just a case of ''when in the Middle East do as the Middle Easteners.'' I am an atheist and don't care for the harm that religion does, but singling out Israel just doesn't make sense to me, considering who their neighbours are. It shows anti-Jewish bias.

I guess I just really shudder at the idea of giving statehood to a government that believes blowing me to bits in a random act of terror would be a noble deed. Taking that route would just lead me to believe I had become another of Iran's useful idiots.

This is were you are wrong.
Israel's religion is not a factor because they are jewish.

They could be any religion, I could care less how they want to pray or who it is they praise as god.

It's now a religion with an agenda, and with that comes criticism as any movement that causes duress and denies human rights does.

So many want to label it as anti religion, the jewish worldwide like Israel despite it's wrongdoings, this is no longer practicing religion but supporting a cause outside of religion.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 06:30 PM
It's now a religion with an agenda, and with that comes criticism as any movement that causes duress and denies human rights does.



Agreed, so let's criticise Islam and those behind its agenda fervently.

Sofonda Cox
09-24-2011, 06:31 PM
The Palestinian government called Bin Laden a hero for all the things he did and hoped to do. That includes killing you and me.

The poor Palestinians are now just the puppets of Iran and Iran is devoted to the destruction of Israel.


Neither of these points are valid.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 06:39 PM
buddyholly, what would you do if you were Palestinian just asking for a country like everyone else in the world? There are many bad stuff in that area, but, Why should Palestinians pay the full price of everything wrong in middle east. Even when they have nothing to do with it.

This bid isn't against Israelis, they already have a country. Now, it's time for Palestinians too to have their own country. This will also be a push for peace in the whole area. I don't see any valid reason not to support this peaceful step.


I won't support it as long as their chosen representatives have an agenda to destroy Israel, take their policies from Iran and make statements to the effect that the deeds of Bin Laden were noble. I will not stick my head in the sand and overlook that. How can creating a state with an objective to destroy Israel be a push for peace? Giving statehood to Palestine under these conditions would just put Iran on Israel's doorstep. And we have often heard Ahmadinejad state that the holocaust did not happen, that Israel should be wiped off the map, among other crazy things. As long as the Palestinians ally themselves with states that would celebrate blowing me to pieces, I would have to say no.

I would say that the Palestinians are paying the full price for everything wrong in the Middle East because that is the way Iran and Syria have treated the Palestinians - making sure they are kept where they are for propaganda purposes. I probably will be accused of reading the wrong news, but isn't there a case that Palestinians in the West Bank fare better than Palestinians in Syria, Lebanon or Jordan?

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 06:47 PM
Neither of these points are valid.

They are valid if they are correct. You prefer to look the other way, I assume?

@Sweet Cleopatra
09-24-2011, 06:51 PM
I won't support it as long as their chosen representatives have an agenda to destroy Israel, take their orders from Iran and make statements to the effect that the deeds of Bin Laden were noble. I will not stick my head in the sand and overlook that. How can creating a state with an objective to destroy Israel be a push for peace? Giving statehood to Palestine under these conditions would just put Iran on Israel's doorstep. And we have often heard Ahmadinejad state that the holocaust did not happen, among other crazy things. As long as the Palestians ally themselves with states that would celebrate blowing me to pieces, I would have to say no.

I would say that the Palestinians are paying the full price for everything wrong in the Middle East because that is the way Iran and Syria have treated the Palestinians.

But with refusing to give Palestinians a Palestinian country and a formal national identity cause they are born terrorists, Children will act as terrorists when they grow up. What else should they do?
If you refuse to fully support the 2 state solution practically by allowing 2 states to exit, you are giving chances to extremists to support their agenda in the area.
A peaceful step from UN, from the world to allow Palestinians to have their country in 67 borders is a win for peace, failure for extremism. It shows that making world as an enemy is wrong, this kills the fundamental principle in any extreme idea, which put "others" as enemies.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 07:05 PM
But with refusing to give Palestinians a Palestinian country and a formal national identity cause they are born terrorists, Children will act as terrorists when they grow up. What else should they do?
If you refuse to fully support the 2 state solution practically by allowing 2 states to exit, you are giving chances to extremists to support their agenda in the area.
A peaceful step from UN, from the world to allow Palestinians to have their country in 67 borders is a win for peace, failure for extremism. It shows that making world as an enemy is wrong, this kills the fundamental principle in any extreme idea, which put "others" as enemies.

I would support a 2 state solution. But not under the present Palestinian Authority and its policy of destroying Israel. Don't you think that such a policy should first be changed? I fail to see how creating a state with the intent of destroying another state is a move for peace.

You don't have to be stateless to be born a terrorist. Ask the Saudis.

And if I remember correctly, the countries surrounding Israel thought the '67 borders were not satisfactory.

@Sweet Cleopatra
09-24-2011, 07:10 PM
I would support a 2 state solution. But not under the present Palestinian Authority and its policy of destroying Israel. Don't you think that such a policy should first be changed?



The speech yesterday was clear in supporting peace and 2 state solution.

tangerine_dream
09-24-2011, 07:18 PM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 07:22 PM
The speech yesterday was clear in supporting peace and 2 state solution.

I missed it. Everybody ''supports'' peace. Did he say that the destruction of Israel was off the agenda? Did he say that Palestine no longer believes that Bin Laden had a noble cause?

But you could apply those words to Netanyahu's speech too.

I think it difficult to accept that the Palestinian Authority really wants peace with Israel when it denies Israel's right to exist. The two don't add up. I would have to keep open the possibility that the Palestinian Authority really wants to wipe Israel off the map.

Mjau!
09-24-2011, 07:29 PM
What is their alternative against being surrounded by people whose stated aim is to wipe them off the map?
I think it very ironic that when the UN was founded to stop something like the holocaust ever happening again, it has now evolved to where we have the leader of Iran stand on its podium and declare the holocaust never happened, the USA caused both world wars, 9/11 was an inside job etc.

Your post refers to me, but my post referred to the expulsion of Jews from Germany, the expulsion of Jews from surrounding Arab states, the Palestinian leader claiming Bin Laden was a hero of our times, and the Palestinians now being puppets of Iran's criminal regime. Those parallels and the kind of country now on Israel's borders are conveniently ignored by people who pile on Israel. Syria, killing its own citizens. Iran, killing its own citizens. Saudi Arabia, ruled by despots that could not care less about human rights.

Equating the West bank to a Nazi ghetto just shows you have no grasp of reality at all. The Nazi ghettos, if you recall, were to keep people in. Suggesting that I would have supported the Nazis just indicates how ridiculous your arguments are. I am a bit ashamed of even replying to your claims. But unfortunately, the way of the least persuasive posters on MTF is just to slur the poster with lies and ignore the content of the post. If I were to claim that you probably would consider the holocaust to have been a necessary cleansing and the present objective of the Palestinians to continue the good works of the holocaust a laudable mission, I would be rightly accused of being an idiot. But you probably think that attempting to do the same to me was ''clever.'' Some of my relatives fought and died against the Nazis, so what you suggest, I think, is vile. I guess I will forgive your youth and lack of perspective.

So, preferably without the diversion of putting ridiculous thoughts in my head, do you have any comment on the roughly 800,000 Jews that were kicked out of surrounding Arab countries simply for being Jews? Where should they go? Should Israel be wiped off the map, as the Iranian leader proposed? And BTW, your post talks about building racially pure, Jewish colonies. If true, wouldn't that just be an adaptation to Middle Eastern ways?

All your arguments are :BS:. Just a bunch of straw men about the holocaust, Bin Laden, wiping Israel off the map (because they are constantly attacked by foreign armies striving to exterminate them and all they have for protection are a few million palestinian hostages keeping the Hitler's of ME at bay. Poor Israel and their few hundred illegal nukes would be so defenseless against the supposedly suicidal iranians if they didn't get to oppress the palestinians. :sad:) and human rights in arab nations. Plus irrelevant differences between jewish ghettos and the West bank (because the point wasn't at all that they were both de-humanized and treated like animals :rolleyes:). Rational, non-racist people can see through your nonsense.

Do you mean they will enjoy the same legal rights as the Iranian, Saudi, and Syrian people? Wow, I bet they can't wait. It has been a joy to citizens of those countries to be able to express their opinions freely. They just have do it alone in a small locked room with no windows.

Yes, clearly the palestinians do not deserve sovereignty. They are barbaric sub-humans that must be governed with an iron fist by the master race.

Mjau!
09-24-2011, 07:39 PM
I missed it. Everybody ''supports'' peace. Did he say that the destruction of Israel was off the agenda? Did he say that Palestine no longer believes that Bin Laden had a noble cause?

But you could apply those words to Netanyahu's speech too.

I think it difficult to accept that the Palestinian Authority wants peace with Israel when it denies Israel's right to exist. The two don't add up.

Would you like to know why a lot of palestinians hate Israel? Maybe because of the 44 year old, brutal, de-humanizing and deeply racist occupation, you heartless arab-hater? When you treat people like animals, they act like it. You breed violence and hatred. Anyone who supports the treatment of palestinians is a racist prick or painfully ignorant. There's no way around it. You are the zionist version of the Hamas supporter. Every bit as disguting as those advocating suicide bombings. How dare you demonize the palestinians for voting for Hamas when the israelis continue to vote for the oppression and ethnic cleansing of the palestinians? Who has suffered more? Who has more reason to feel hatred?

The 1967 war was, imo wrong, but not unprovoced. Israel had already stolen land from the palestinians, established a jewish supremacy and conducted acts of terrorism against palestinian, UN, british, egyptian and US targets. The Greatest Nation in the Free World (USA) has gone to war for far less, repeatedly. The 1967 war does not justify an endless and oppressive military occupation. It does not justify bulldozing palestinian homes and crops, building racially pure, jewish only settlements, putting the palestinians whose homes you destroyed in camps, turning the West bank and Gaza into a horrible ghetto, destroying every opportunity at a decent life, shooting kids for throwing rocks at occupying tanks, bombing civilian targets and using illegal, indiscriminate weapons in an urban environment. That's called colonization, ethnic cleansing, racial apartheid, state-terrorism and war crimes. The occupation is illegal, the "settlements" are illegal and their methods are illegal. The only reason they continue to get away with it is the US veto x33 (and counting). I oppose all of those atrocities AND the suicide bombings and home made rockets. I don't believe that Israel's atrocities justify the targetting of civilians, but nor does the suicide bombings justify Israel's many crimes, or even preceed them. They are the inhumane retaliation for an inhumane, humiliating and racist occupation. You on the other hand support every one of Israel's crimes and blame the palestinians for them. As if they are justified. As if the war is good versus evil.

You have the mentality of a rapist demanding your victim to lie still and take it, saying it's her fault that you continue to **** her, because she continues to struggle against it.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 11:01 PM
Wow, I think you've lost it. Your lashing out with racial slurs is all too predictable on this forum when you find that someone actually dares to have a different perspective. I really think it is an indication that the hate lies within the ranter. Maybe I should just converse with Sweet Cleopatra, who really seems to be aware that opinions other than her own are possible.

I have never supported every one of Israel's crimes, as you allege. You just made that up. However, I am just not going to support a terrorist regime like Iran and its puppets. But the attitudes here seem to be forget all that bad stuff that goes on in the countries allied with the Palestinians - this is an Israeli-bashing thread and, as safin says, what goes on in other parts of the middle east is not relevant to the Israeli-bashing.

I think that when you go on a rant about Israel's inhumanity, you ignore what I consider much worse inhumanity going on in Iran and Syria at this very moment. And the Palestinians seem to buy into that mentality. I mean, why haven't you come out and called Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia racist pricks for their expulsion of Jews, execution of gays, execution of adulterers etc? Or is that an invalid comparison?

What have the Israelis ever done to the Iranians that would prompt the Iranian leader to come to the United Nations and say that there was no holocaust and Israel should be wiped off the map. If you want genuine racism, dehumanization, religious hatred and indifference to human rights, look no further than the Jew-hating state of Iran. He's probably back there right now looking for some more innocents to hang in the name of Islam.

By the way, hating the regimes in Syria and Iran has no relation at all to hating Arabs. But yes, I do hate the regimes in Syria and Iran for the ruthless suppression of their own people.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 11:05 PM
Yes, clearly the palestinians do not deserve sovereignty. They are barbaric sub-humans that must be governed with an iron fist by the master race.

This was your response to my statement that the people of Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia don't have human rights. I don't see the connection.

Sofonda Cox
09-24-2011, 11:15 PM
Leave it to Tony Blair.

buddyholly
09-24-2011, 11:33 PM
Cherie would sort it quicker. Whover pays her the most gets it all.

Hokit
09-25-2011, 04:52 AM
I think it difficult to accept that the Palestinian Authority really wants peace with Israel when it denies Israel's right to exist. The two don't add up. I would have to keep open the possibility that the Palestinian Authority really wants to wipe Israel off the map.

It's a stalemate - Israel won't budge without its security guaranteed and the Palestinians won't give recognition unless borders are redrawn back to what they were before 1967 :shrug:

I can understand the stakes from both sides. But unfortunately neither will agree on anything unless the leaders are willing to make compromises without letting their political agenda get in the way.

For the time being, tensions must be kept under tight control. This is where the leaders need to rise above the pettiness and have peace at the forefront of their minds.

DrJules
09-25-2011, 09:59 AM
It will only happen if the oil states in the middle east such as Saudia Arabia collectively support the idea and threaten to disrupt the western oil supply. The oil supply is more important to the west than Israel; oil representing economic prosperity in the west compared to the Israeli's constantly moaning about how little the west did to save them from the holocaust.

vucina
09-25-2011, 12:36 PM
Yes. They can have Jordan as their state and rename it Palestine. Or some Scandinavian country.

buddyholly
09-25-2011, 01:59 PM
It's a stalemate - Israel won't budge without its security guaranteed and the Palestinians won't give recognition unless borders are redrawn back to what they were before 1967 :shrug:

I can understand the stakes from both sides. But unfortunately neither will agree on anything unless the leaders are willing to make compromises without letting their political agenda get in the way.

For the time being, tensions must be kept under tight control. This is where the leaders need to rise above the pettiness and have peace at the forefront of their minds.

Yes, that is the way it is, unfortunately. But for purposes of discussion here it is not an acceptable conclusion. The politically correct one is that the Israelis are mean and cruel and mention of the imaginary mean and cruel suppression of human rights in the surrounding countries that wish to bring on the holocaust, that apparently we must now accept didn't actually happen during WWII, is just idiotic, racist, anti-Arab rabblerousing. What a relief for Europe to find that out. We knew it all the time, I guess. Now we can relax, knowing it was a Zionist conspiracy all the time.
We need to pay more attention to Ahmadinejad when he graces the United Nations with his presence and tells us what really happened in Europe and Ground Zero.
I for one have been so gullible that I really thought those photos of gays being hanged in Tehran were genuine and not just more Zionist propaganda. Sorry, I guess bringing that up is just my ingrown racism surfacing again. I need to show more respect for the Democratic much-loved Iranian government.

buddyholly
09-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Maybe because of the 44 year old, brutal, de-humanizing and deeply racist occupation, you heartless arab-hater? When you treat people like animals, they act like it. You breed violence and hatred. Anyone who supports the treatment of palestinians is a racist prick or painfully ignorant.

So who's been treating you like an animal, now that you are acting like one?

Racism 101:
Racism: Criticism or dislike of someone for what they are.
Opinion: Criticism or dislike of what someone does.

You don't like what the Israelis do. I don't like who the Palestinians chose as their representatives and allies. Does that make us both racist? Or just people with different opinions?

You are exhibiting the same mis-understanding as those who recently were screaming that every vote against Obama was racist. It is an easy card to play, but has no value when wrongly used.
You don't like what the Israelis do, but if I called you anti-Semitic you would be outraged. I say I don't like what the Iranians and their allies do and because you disagree with me you go off stamping your feet in a hissy fit and ranting "Arab-hater! Arab-hater! Racist! Racist"

Infantile behaviour. (Just my opinion, mind you.)

Tommy_Vercetti
09-25-2011, 08:21 PM
The Palestinians forfeited their right to statehood when they participated in four genocidal wars against the Israelis and were this any other era, they would have been driven from the West Bank, the Sinai and Southern Lebanon and lost if for keeps.

The whole official statehood is irrelevant. Nothing is ever going to change unless they are pushed out and forced to finally take responsibility for themselves. It should have been done in the 60's or 70's and they have adjusted by now. Like what was done to the ethnic Germans by the Soviets or to the Japanese in China in the short years before 1948.

But I don't ever see it happening because no one has the courage to be a real leader in this era of politically correct press.

abraxas21
09-25-2011, 11:19 PM
Mr Barak Hussein Obama said NO, so whatever we think is utterly irrelevant.

barack obama is a sold out clown. he's been like that for decades so i can't say im surprised.

abraxas21
09-25-2011, 11:24 PM
reading bits and pieces of this thread, i can see quite clearly once again why i once thought BH is the most exhasperating narrow-minded right wing idiot of this forum

abraxas21
09-25-2011, 11:27 PM
The Palestinians forfeited their right to statehood when they participated in four genocidal wars against the Israelis and were this any other era, they would have been driven from the West Bank, the Sinai and Southern Lebanon and lost if for keeps.

The whole official statehood is irrelevant. Nothing is ever going to change unless they are pushed out and forced to finally take responsibility for themselves. It should have been done in the 60's or 70's and they have adjusted by now. Like what was done to the ethnic Germans by the Soviets or to the Japanese in China in the short years before 1948.

But I don't ever see it happening because no one has the courage to be a real leader in this era of politically correct press.

damn, i forgot about this guy

now all we need is chair umpire and this thread will be complete

Mjau!
09-26-2011, 01:30 AM
So who's been treating you like an animal, now that you are acting like one?

Racism 101:
Racism: Criticism or dislike of someone for what they are.
Opinion: Criticism or dislike of what someone does.

You don't like what the Israelis do. I don't like who the Palestinians chose as their representatives and allies. Does that make us both racist? Or just people with different opinions?

You are exhibiting the same mis-understanding as those who recently were screaming that every vote against Obama was racist. It is an easy card to play, but has no value when wrongly used.
You don't like what the Israelis do, but if I called you anti-Semitic you would be outraged. I say I don't like what the Iranians and their allies do and because you disagree with me you go off stamping your feet in a hissy fit and ranting "Arab-hater! Arab-hater! Racist! Racist"

Infantile behaviour. (Just my opinion, mind you.)

No, I'm not calling you a racist because you "don't like what the Iranians and their allies do", nor because you don't like who the Palestinians chose as their representatives and allies. I'm calling you a racist because you justify and support all of Israel's atrocities. I don't believe you would if the ethnic tables were turned.

tangerine_dream
09-26-2011, 09:10 PM
No, I'm not calling you a racist because you "don't like what the Iranians and their allies do", nor because you don't like who the Palestinians chose as their representatives and allies. I'm calling you a racist because you justify and support all of Israel's atrocities. I don't believe you would if the ethnic tables were turned.
So the problem might be that your projecting your own racism onto to BH's. Or maybe you're just a raging anti-Semite.

In any case, these discussions would go further if people would refrain from using the tired racism crutch when they have nothing else to support their argument with.

abraxas21
09-26-2011, 09:21 PM
So the problem might be that your projecting your own racism onto to BH's. Or maybe you're just a raging anti-Semite.

In any case, these discussions would go further if people would refrain from using the tired racism crutch when they have nothing else to support their argument with.

I and others will use the "tired racism crutch" when there's a credible basis to support the thesis that racism happens. it's as simple as that.

you and the right wing lot might cry about it but that won't keep me from denouncing the racism of the israeli laws, institutions and society in general.

Mjau!
09-26-2011, 10:06 PM
So the problem might be that your projecting your own racism onto to BH's. Or maybe you're just a raging anti-Semite.

So because I don't support a brutal, inhumane, military occupation, ethnic cleansing, targetting civilians, colonization and racial supremacy against a semitic people that makes me anti-semitic? :lol: You don't have to pick the team that's "more like us" and excuse every atrocious crime they're responsible of.

In any case, these discussions would go further if people would refrain from using the tired racism crutch when they have nothing else to support their argument with.

Oh, really? Nothing? How about the fact that you openly support racist policies? :rolleyes: Your cowardly unwillingness to admit that they are racist does not change the actual nature of the policies.

tangerine_dream
09-27-2011, 02:11 AM
Gee, maybe I'm being simple in my thinking but I don't think sixty years of Israel-Palestine conflict can be boiled down to racism. That kind of vacuous thinking serves no real purpose, except maybe to silence the opposition of extremists.

you and the right wing lot might cry about it but that won't keep me from denouncing the racism of the israeli laws, institutions and society in general.

Oh, really? Nothing? How about the fact that you openly support racist policies? :rolleyes: Your cowardly unwillingness to admit that they are racist does not change the actual nature of the policies.
:facepalm:

You know what, Never mind. I should have learned my lesson by now but I guess if I want a more expansive, adult discussion about the middle east, or anything else, I certainly won't find it here on MTF.

The Magician
09-27-2011, 08:13 AM
damn, i forgot about this guy

now all we need is chair umpire and this thread will be complete

:haha:

I also love how BH calls the Iranian regime "criminal". These are just words to him because anyone who thought of the implications of a state being criminal (by violating international law I assume) would immediately realize the United States and Israel violate international law far more and are the kingpins of crime.

MaxPower
09-27-2011, 11:05 AM
How come it took so long time before they got really serious with the statehood bid? I mean it's been so many years that you start to wonder.

1) If you are a state you'd better get the economy running. That's not gonna be easy for a small Palestinian state. Will they survive on aid again like they have done all these years? But why would people keep throwing money at them with if there was no war anymore and no-one felt sorry for them?

2) Israel will get all the right in the world to wall the border and keep ridiculous tight security vs this state. Also not gonna benefit most Palestinians that might be interested to work in Israel.

3) The extremists will still not be satisfied and will still want to eradicate Israel from the map. In their agenda a free Palestine isn't the end by any means but just a goal on the road. If they had a state it will be easier for Iran and other countries to supply these extremists with weapons. That will in turn give Israel every right to retaliate

In the end the statehood bid might not even be in the best interest for palestinians themselves.

buddyholly
09-27-2011, 04:15 PM
No, I'm not calling you a racist because you "don't like what the Iranians and their allies do", nor because you don't like who the Palestinians chose as their representatives and allies. I'm calling you a racist because you justify and support all of Israel's atrocities. I don't believe you would if the ethnic tables were turned.

That doesn't fit any definition of racism that I am aware of.
As far as I am concerned it is a choice between two evils, but you seem to have decided that you know best how people should think. However, you justify and support all of Hezbollah's atrocities. I don't believe you would if the ethnic tables were turned. So I guess you are defining yourself as racist. Should I conclude that you would call any atrocity an act of courage just as long as Jews are on the receiving end?

If I were to claim everyone who disagreed with me was racist, people would rightly laugh at my ignorance.

buddyholly
09-27-2011, 04:19 PM
I and others will use the "tired racism crutch" when there's a credible basis to support the thesis that racism happens. it's as simple as that.

you and the right wing lot might cry about it but that won't keep me from denouncing the racism of the israeli laws, institutions and society in general.

I would like to denounce the even more racist laws, institutions and society of Israel's attackers. There, I feel much more righteous now.

But anyway, you seem to have got all muddled up in the discussion of my alleged racism and Israel's racism. I think it was said by Action Jackson in the last year that there is no record of my ever having made a racist post on MTF. Just a lot of people trundling out that tired racism crutch when someone has the affrontery to disagree with them.

buddyholly
09-27-2011, 04:27 PM
reading bits and pieces of this thread, i can see quite clearly once again why i once thought BH is the most exhasperating narrow-minded right wing idiot of this forum

Thank you. A good example of the left-wing hate mongerers throwing out what they percieve as witty put-downs, when they are really just name-calling in the school-yard. Someone so disillusioned about his own worldliness that he imagines people who have opinions differing from his own must be idiots. I left that kind of attitude behind somewhere in grade school.
(BTW, not only is the ''h'' silent, but also invisible.)

I mean to say, if I wrote:
''reading this forum I can see quite clearly once again why abraxas is the most narrow-minded left-wing idiot on this forum'', then I would hope to have the good sense to delete it before letting the readers see how narrow and childishly spiteful is my view of the world.

buddyholly
09-27-2011, 04:35 PM
:haha:

I also love how BH calls the Iranian regime "criminal". These are just words to him because anyone who thought of the implications of a state being criminal (by violating international law I assume) would immediately realize the United States and Israel violate international law far more and are the kingpins of crime.

I was probably referring to Iran's criminal behaviour towards Iranians.

abraxas21
09-28-2011, 03:21 PM
I would like to denounce the even more racist laws, institutions and society of Israel's attackers. There, I feel much more righteous now.

But anyway, you seem to have got all muddled up in the discussion of my alleged racism and Israel's racism. I think it was said by Action Jackson in the last year that there is no record of my ever having made a racist post on MTF. Just a lot of people trundling out that tired racism crutch when someone has the affrontery to disagree with them.

for the record, even though you're an apologist for the racist regime that prevails in israel, i don't think you're necessarily a racist nor have i accused you of being one. you just have the wrong ideas.

abraxas21
09-28-2011, 03:31 PM
Gee, maybe I'm being simple in my thinking but I don't think sixty years of Israel-Palestine conflict can be boiled down to racism. That kind of vacuous thinking serves no real purpose, except maybe to silence the opposition of extremists.

it's an ethnic conflict and therefore the race-tag will forever be attached to it with a strong importance. basically, israel defines itself as "the jewish state" and has discriminated, expelled and excluded palestinians since it's very beginning mainly on the basis that they are not like them. i.e. they're not jewish in terms of culture, religion or ethnicity in general.

in moments like these people like BH usually pop up and say a million of bad things about the palestinians conveniently forgetting the facts that:

1- they were effectively robbed of their country and thus have every right to be mad. i wonder how would BH or you feel if i go to his house, kick him out and declare it my own on the basis that in ancient times my ancestors used to live in the land...

2- to equate the destruction and deaths the jewish israelis have inflicted on the palestinians with the destruction and deaths caused by the palestinians is just disingenous.... there's a clear imbalance of power and military capacity and one of the 2 sides has been subjugating the other for decades.

:facepalm:

You know what, Never mind. I should have learned my lesson by now but I guess if I want a more expansive, adult discussion about the middle east, or anything else, I certainly won't find it here on MTF.

do as you wish... i don't expect to change anyone's mind here but i'll call it like it is.

abraxas21
09-28-2011, 03:34 PM
Thank you. A good example of the left-wing hate mongerers throwing out what they percieve as witty put-downs, when they are really just name-calling in the school-yard. Someone so disillusioned about his own worldliness that he imagines people who have opinions differing from his own must be idiots. I left that kind of attitude behind somewhere in grade school.

you got me wrong.

i didn't call you an idiot because your ideas are different than my own. i called you an idiot simply because your ideas are idiotic.

Ilovetheblues_86
09-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Hmm, I dont think the fact that the actual Palestinian leaders want or not to wipe the Israeli people should have any influence in the decision, since we are talking about giving a State for a nation, and not a State for a government.
Religion is irrelevant too.

buddyholly
09-28-2011, 06:35 PM
you just have the wrong ideas.

No, I don't. You do! You do! You do!

(I love the cut and thrust of debating with the great minds of the left, like abraxas).

buddyholly
09-28-2011, 06:37 PM
you got me wrong.

i didn't call you an idiot because your ideas are different than my own. i called you an idiot simply because your ideas are idiotic.

Still living in your little bubble, I see.

Well, your ideas are idiotic. So take that, moron!

Geez, this feels good, maybe I should move to the left and know everything.

buddyholly
09-28-2011, 06:59 PM
in moments like these people like BH usually pop up and say a million of bad things about the palestinians



I haven't said that much bad, except that they are the puppets of Iran and Syria. Mostly I have said that when a country is surrounded by enemies that have declared their desire to wipe it off the map, then I can understand how they have come to trust no-one. And I believe that Iran and Syria are corrupt and shameless enough to prefer the Israeli-Palestine conflict to last forever, if necessary.

But if Israel were to return to the 1967 borders tomorrow, do you really think the Iranians would declare that they no longer wish to wipe Israel off the map and mean it, and Ahmadinejad would make a trip to the UN to declare that he now believes the Holocaust actually happened?

When a two-state system was attempted by the UN in 1947, the day after it went into effect 5 Arab armies invaded Palestine. Of course the Israelis can not forget that.

And in my opinion it is no good to respond, ''Come on, what can Iran do to the military might of Israel?'' It is because they can't do much else at the moment that keeping the Palestinians as disposable pawns in the conflict is their best option.